Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Josh Radnor: Making Peace with How I Met Your Mother

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

Josh Radnor's SHOCKING Revelations After HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER Fame!    From Alcohol Addiction to Ayahuasca Journeys, Josh reveals how he found his True Self beyond "Ted Mosby"!    Josh opens up about the DANGERS of Porn and the despair he found himself in after his quick rise to fame - including his reliance on alcohol, weed, and interactions with women to cope with stardom.   He also discusses about his spiritual journey ("God is a verb!"), his struggle with overemphasizing the opinions of others, how he sees himself through his enneagram and attachment style lenses, and how Ayahuasca changed EVERYTHING for him – from quitting alcohol to overcoming the fear of death!   Josh Radnor also breaks down: - His newfound music career  - Why society should broaden its definition of addiction - His thoughts on Simulation Theory - His negative experience with depression medication - Anxious vs Avoidant attachment - Addictive nature of porn, how it manipulates our sexual nature, and his choice to stop consuming it - The notion of public ownership over actors - Existential struggles of turning 50 - His recent marriage (+ what it's like to be married to an actual therapist!)   TUNE IN to MBB today to hear a side of Josh Radnor you've never heard before!!   Check out Josh Radnor's music here: https://www.joshradnor.com/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There was a moment with how I made. There were many moments where I was like, I can't believe I'm still playing the same role. I had a joke with someone I was like, I've run out of faces to make it Barney. When I got on the show and I was having what looked to be, I mean, by our cultural standard, like the great success, I fell into this kind of despair,

which drove me deeper into a spiritual search where I was like, what do I, like, what is meaning my spiritual practice is how do I navigate, losing anonymity, being on this big show, feeling trapped by this big show, also being alert to its many, many blessings, how do I not wither under the opinion, praise, or criticism of other people? There was this very strange vertigo of being collapsed and over-identified with the character. It actually threw me into this kind of existential crisis, especially when I met in when I first came on for the first two seasons, I noticed my drinking.

There was an uptick in it. To counteract the discomfort with the third. fame and the visibility, a bottle of wine, and then smoking a lot of pot, and then waking up and not remembering getting into bed kind of thing. My stuff with women was very kind of tied into alcohol. There were interactions that were piling up. I'm only now on some weird level, like, making some peace with that era, because I found, for whatever reason, the show has continued to, like, blossom and grow. It's really an important thing for people. And I'm like, oh my God, I was a part of that. I was like at the center of that. What a gift. You could be a proper atheist, neuroscientist and know

exactly what's happening to the brain when you're under the influence of any of these substances. But at some point, especially with ayahuasca, you will be so far from thinking about the pharmacology of it. You will be like, I'm being bathed by an angel. There's a being or a consciousness that is very benevolent, feels feminine. It's communicating with me. It seems to love me. It seems to know a lot about me, and it seems to be giving me some very good advice. I just had this transcendent, incredibly impactful heart-opening experience. There's this feeling that you get like kind of homework, like, okay, I need to make an amends to that person, I need to stop drinking that. It took away the fear of my own extinction, like the idea of lights out.

It's my and biologs breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing. Or two And now she's going to break down It's a breakdown She's a surprise Beach day No excuses I'm in

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I'm B. Alec. And I'm not ready, but I am Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. You're always surprising me. No ready set go. Just right into it.

Let's get into it. I'm just going to say it. Usually we have like, here's the clever thing. We're going to learn this episode. We're going to talk to Josh Radner from how I met your mother about So many things. Fame, sex, ayahuasca, porn, death.

The addictive nature of the society we live in and what to do about it. I did not know that Josh Radner had so many fascinating things to say about so many topics. He has this muse letter. He's a musician. He's also a writer and director. In addition to all the awesome things he's going to talk to us about regarding how I met your mother, he's going to talk about the kind of, I mean, in his words, the despair that he found himself in with newfound fame, how alcohol played a part in trying to make it better, how he discovered that fame and money do not bring happiness, but he has started tapping into what does bring happiness and contentment. And I learned so much from him. He's my favorite rabbi that isn't a rabbi.

And if you're like, well, I don't want to really understand, you know, hear more about fame and why the trappings of wealth are uninteresting. The conversation really expands into consciousness. We start actually with are we living in a simulation. We also talk about what it means to feel held and in Josh's words, bathed by an angel and what getting in touch with a notion of benevolence, goodness, and kindness can bring to you no matter what you do in life. This is why you summarize so well. It's really a pleasure to welcome Josh Radner to the breakdown. I'm pretty sure that we've had interactions before at like parties and such, but this is such a lovely, lovely opportunity to get to know Josh Radner better. Josh Radner, welcome to the breakdown.

Break it down. Thanks for having me. We're very excited to talk to you. Yeah. Well, because we're big fans of a lot of things you do. I'm a very large fan of your writing and the things that I've read that you write are very interesting to me. But Jonathan pointed out that you basically, you basically write about all the things we talk about on our podcast. Oh, is that right? Okay. You're like, he's our ideal person because we talk about science and spirituality. We talk about celebrity and the dangers of kind of a consumptive society.

We talk about psychedelics. We talk about death. Like, we talk about all these things. Let's talk about all of them. That's the thing. We were like, we want you here to talk about all the things. Great. Let's see.

Jonathan, where should we start? Jonathan is like deep into like simulation theory, death. Oh, you know, I'm anti-simulation theory. Let's start there. I'm not a proponent to say that we are in a simulation. And I was just reading the anti-simulation theory. I think it's too simple. But at the same regard, while I don't believe in a techno-simulation theory,

I kind of believe that there is some form of intelligent life that has created this experience, that this is not the first time this experience has been created, that we are... I can get behind that. So what you're saying is essentially that some sort of divine impulse or force is dreaming us. Would you say that? Or having an experience of us through us? Having an experience of us. I wouldn't say dreaming necessarily, but I don't say dreaming necessarily, but I

I would say that the fate of the collective human species, whether this, you know, the Earth survives and human species get, I don't know that there are levels, but like progresses beyond where we are now, has a fate greater than just the eradication of the species or not. I think I know what you're saying. I just love that this is the first five minutes. Well, oh, no, we're not. We're just getting warmed up here. But also, here's my question. is that different from just regular God? Is it different from, you know, there's something greater than me

that has a bigger picture of what's happening and that there's no good or bad, there just is. And certain things I may perceive as like, this isn't how I want it to go, but like something greater than me has a better idea. Like, is that different? Or you just get to say like simulation theory,

I sound so fancy. Well, what I always, my allergy to simulation theory is from the tech perspective, like you were talking about, like 4,000 years in this, the future. There's some kid in a garage who's just like, Oh, I've seen Ready Player.

Yeah, got so much tech that we are his kind of play things or like he's, you know, I always, that always makes me like claustrophobic and panicked and nauseous, you know. But, but I think that if you. Because it's true. I don't, I mean, if it is, it's really problematic, you know. Not for us, though, because, I mean, that's the thing. Like, how does it change what we're doing unless you're in the, you know, if you dip into other worlds where you are receiving other knowledge about truth and consequences,

as it were. I just, I quoted in the thing I wrote, which you might be referencing, I don't know if you'd read that, but I, Terence McKenna said this thing that were trapped in a very elaborate work of art. Yeah. Which I really like. And maybe it's just my preferences. Like, I like thinking of things through the lens of, like, philosophy, theology, and art rather than tech. Like, I'm not a, I mean, I think a lot of the tech.

tech bros who posit simulation theory is like tech is their god right so that's what they worship and that's how they conceive of the world right so that everything has to be constructed around that because that's sort of the letters that you're using to construct the words and the paragraphs and the books exactly right yeah whether it's art or whether it's tech the fact that people are stuck in something speaks to a larger consciousness like people are trapped in whatever worldview awareness that they have and breaking out of that, whether it be that you need to

look behind the veil of the matrix because it's the tech infrastructure, or whether it is that, you know, I have to look beyond my limited view of the narrative that I have in my head to see a larger view.

It's kind of overlapping and speaking to the same thing just using different language. I think that's right. But I also think that there's, there's a way to kind of approach this from more of a like, healing benevolent space rather than a kind of, I don't know, there's something about the tech

thing that feels so cold and, I don't know, I can't locate the warmth in it and it, it, well, it's not, it's not sort of designed to be that. It also feel like it's unhooked from ethics or values. There's no, I don't know what the value system is, you know. So, I mean, if there's a more benevolent sort of, um, overseas. where is the warmth there? Well, I don't know. I mean, I'm not asking you to absolutely say, for you. I think what does that feel like?

I get tripped up when I think of God or benevolent overseer as a noun. Would you like it to be an adjective? No, I think it's a verb. Okay. I think it's a verb. Do you know this poet Christian Wyman? Yes. Did you read, New Yorker did a profile on him recently?

Yes. So I'm reading his book, My Bright Abyss, which I totally. recommend. I have read it. It's incredible, right? It's very incredible. Very incredible. But he talks about this getting tripped up on God as an object. Right. And that in some ways, the kind of biblical commandment of like, don't make any graven images. It's like, don't freeze me as a thing. Right. Right. And I also think it's even broader, like don't worship something as me that's not me. I mean, look, historically, it was also to distinguish from tribes that did worship things that were inanimate that way. But yes, the sort of mystical

understanding is you can't, if you try and touch it, it slips through your hands. Right. But also, I think we are always making gods of things that aren't God. Sure. Money, you know, sex, relationships, food. I mean, whatever is our addiction. I'm just listing mine. Whatever's our relationship. Whatever's our addiction is our God. Right. And that's the wisdom of 12 step. It's like, why don't we get you unhooked from this false God and get you into something that's just more healing. God God God, God. You know. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Look, this is the central conversation of my life, so I'm happy to, you know, be talking about it with you.

Was this always the central conversation of your existence? Like, were you that kid? No, not quite. I went to an Orthodox Hebrew Day school. So I was, like, saturated in kind of like biblical stories and Palmud and all that. Was your family Orthodox? No. No, no, no.

It was just the school that everyone kind of went to that wanted some sort of, like, Jewish education. Then I went to a public high school. And I don't know, I don't know that I was, I just, it's hard for me to tease out whether I liked it, didn't like it. It was just what my childhood was. And then I discovered the theater and the theater was the thing that really lit me up, you know, just storytelling. But I think in some ways there was a, I can trace it back to, I did love the stories like in the Bible. Like I really, those. They're pretty good.

They're pretty good. They're weird. They're very weird if you step back. They're very trippy. They're very psychedelic. Yeah. Well, the prophets. And then I think I had this worship of the, like, I would go into theaters and they

were like a quiet theater. It felt like a cathedral to me. But I think once I got, once I became a professional actor and started to have some success, I think I realized that it wasn't a big enough God for me. Like, they're started to, you know, it's kind of like when you get what you thought would make you happy and then you're in more despair than on the other side of it than you thought you, you know, then you were before. Well, if we can just sort of like take a little snapshot here, you were on a television show for nine years. It's an enormous chunk, not only of

your life, but it's very unusual and we have a little bit of overlap. Yeah. It's very unusual in our profession to have any job that last nine years. I know. I know. So I'm kind of curious, like when it started was the notion like, oh, we'll see how this goes. and then you kind of wake up and you're a decade older. I mean, in some ways, I mean, I remember the nine years. Yeah. But at some level, there is a like, this just happened. Like, how long were you on Big Bang?

I was on for nine years. You were on for nine years. And it was on for, you know, 12. Jeez. And I mean, I was on a sitcom for five years from 14 to 19. And then, you know, I left and I had a normal life, worshiping different gods of academia. Yeah.

And then I was on for nine years. I mean, for me, I had two kids in that time. I got divorced. Like, you know, I had so many things happen. Yeah. But for me, it was kind of like my second go at a sitcom life. So I was like, this could last a week and I'll be happy. I don't know.

Whereas, like, you know, when I was a teenager, it's like you can't really see past 14 when you're 14, right? Yeah. I mean, I think me dreaming about being. My M. Bialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water.

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Like, I was just like if I can do like some off-Broadway plays, a couple commercials. like I really had pretty modest, although that might not be true because I've looked. Keep the bar low. You'll always impress yourself. I've looked back at some of my writings and I was like, oh, I was actually more ambitious than I was letting on. So maybe that's just a story. It wasn't quite that. But I wonder if I was like, I tell myself that like, oh, I was just a humble young actor from Ohio, you know.

But I think something that I do like about being an actor was this kind of like vagabond, like jump from role to roll. I'm pretty mercurial and I like doing a lot of different things. So there was a moment with how I'm your mother. There were many moments where I was like, I can't believe I'm still playing the same role. And like I had a joke with someone I was like, I've run out of faces to make it Barney. Yeah.

Like I don't have any more. I'm going to have to cycle back to the beginning of all my faces. I mean, sitcom is also, it's a specific art form. It's specific. Yeah. Yeah. I do know that when I got on the show and I was having what looked to be, I mean, by our cultural standard,

like a great success. I fell into this kind of despair, which actually, to bring it back to what we were talking about earlier, it drove me deeper into a spiritual search where I was like, what do I, like, what is meaning, what means anything, you know, because the cultural script felt I played it out. And it's, it's interesting because what I find so kind of compelling about the way you write about this is that, you know, a lot of people don't well. articulate what you have articulated. Meaning, you know, I can sort of talk about it. I always feel self-conscious talking about it. I never feel like I've articulated it as well as you have. Because I kind of feel like people are like, you're rich and famous. Right. You live in Los Angeles.

Like you can buy what you want, go where you want. Like, what do you have to be depressed about, right? And for me, I always feel like, you're right. It's just me. It's my chemistry. It's my genetics. Like, I don't know. They haven't found. the right pill, you know. But what I think is so interesting about the way you talk about it is you really are able to make this a more universal kind of conversation. Right. Because you had a very specific situation, right? Right. But we're all humans, right? Like navigating whatever we worship, whatever we're told we should do, could do, whatever. But I think this is what, what is so interesting to me is that I'm curious, like, when, like, were you like going out to

party's like looking like a normal functional person. You know, when I was on, when I was on a show when I was a teenager, like I was a mopee teenagers, but like, you know, you turn it on for the camera and then you kind of go home and you're quiet. But you were a grown adult, like functioning in a social structure. Like, did it feel like, oh, there's Josh having a day and he turns it on when he needs to? Or did you kind of like make it through and this was an internal struggle you were having?

Oh my God, this question's making me melt. Sorry. Like, like, I know, I think it's a great question. Let me... You know what I mean? I'm asking if in retrospect, it's like, oh, it was hard, you know? Or if it was like, oh, there's something going on here

and I can't believe I'm still doing this, you know? I've struggled with, though, like, what do I have to complain about? But I, like, we, if you live here long enough and you're in the business long enough, you've met some really miserable Oscar winners, some really discontented, fabulously wealthy people. And I always tell people like if you really think money and fame and success are going to solve it for you, the only thing you can do is go get them to disprove it to yourself.

And maybe, I don't know, maybe there are some people who are, it inoculates them against despair. But I haven't found that to be true with anyone. So I kind of want to reserve the right to feel feelings still as like a human, a human having a human experience. Ram Dass, who I'm sure you are familiar with, he said this thing that, he said this thing that whatever is your life, like whatever is your life, that's your yoga, that's your practice. So I just had to go, okay, well, some people's life looks like this and some people's like, well, it's this. I, my yoga, my spiritual practice is how do I navigate, losing anonymity, being on this big show, feeling trapped by this big show, also being alert to its many,

many blessings. How do I still have a life outside that? How do I not make this? How do I not wither under the opinion, praise or criticism of other people? Like there were so many things to navigate that it wasn't just like an easy like, I wasn't just uncorking the champagne. Like it actually threw me into this kind of existential crisis. And I think there is what you're describing kind of like turning it on for the camera.

There is this necessary kind of split in your consciousness where you're like, I might be having a tough day, but Ted's not having a tough day. So I can't. But you also, as an actor, you just have to bring where you are that day. So I don't know. I think I look back and I think if you're on a show for a decade, they're going to see you in all your weather and you're going to see them in all your, like you're going to see all the colors.

And I'm sure that I was like a mopee pill some days. I just was. And other days I felt more lighthearted and had more fun. But when I look back on it now, it's kind of hard to synthesize, like to say, that experience was this. It was so many things. It was my 30s. You know, and also what was happening off camera in my life in the off time was so transformative. And yeah, it's hard for me.

I'm only now on some weird level, like making some peace with that era because I found for whatever reason the show has continued to like blossom and grow and kind of it just it's really an important thing for people and I'm like oh my God I was a part of that I was like at the center of that what a what a gift and I've

lessened the part of me that's like oh I wish people knew my the movies I directed as well as they knew how I met your mother or whatever and just kind of like let it be what it is which is pretty fantastic There's a notion of sort of the, you know, the role that you play when you play yourself as an actor. Yeah.

Was there a notion of like, who am I? Yeah, what happened was like when I went on Twitter, which is, I mean, what of my field that is, yeah. But I went on to promote, I think it was liberal arts was coming out, and I went on to promote that. And I stayed like so many people do. Or they would let me leave. It's like that shitty bar. Yeah, yeah. And you're like, I shouldn't be here, but there's alcohol.

We're still. Yeah. There was just this weird thing where I would tweet the most innocuous thing you could imagine. Like, and people would be like, you sound like Ted. Are you trying to be like Ted? And I felt really bullied by it. I felt like, wait, what? I couldn't understand where this inability to distinguish, like, me as a person in the world

who's contractually obligated to say lines. And then this need for me to be this person. And there was, like, almost this anger when I wasn't the person. Or there was this weird, ha, ha, ha. Like, it was just weird. like, I felt like because how I met your mother covered so much terrain and so much life that when I was just living my life, people thought I was like nodding to the show or something. And I'm like, no, the show covered all aspects of like romance, relationship, friendship,

aging, dying, living. Like, I need to do all those things. Like, I'm a human. Like, I need to do all those things. So there was this very strange vertigo of being collapsed and over-identified with the character that I still, I feel it's so much. I mean, I don't really think about it unless someone kind of points and says something, which is only online.

No one's rude in life, you know? Really? People are... Try being a woman. Well, yeah, yeah. I mean, sometimes people say obnoxious things. Of course. No, I mean, for me, not that you're asking, but I'll share.

When, you know, when I was a teenager, it was very much like, why are you not smiling all the time? Yeah. Dance for me. Like literally. Like literally dance for me. And this was also, I mean, look, there's more horrible things. Like, for sure.

But when we talk about the things we're talking about, when we talk about sort of our development and especially when you're a teenager, which to me, like the 30s is just another version of teenager, right? Like every decade, I'm still like, feel like a kid and I'm, you know, learning and growing all these things. But, you know, this was before we had that consciousness. And, you know, I was raised by a very tough lady. And my dad was a very tough guy.

And so I was taught to say, like, I don't have to smile for you, you know? But when trying to socialize and, you know, I think it's, there's different aspects. for women and obviously for teenagers. But I think that's also why when I've read and been touched by what you write, it's true even if you're a grown man, right? Yeah. And I think on some level I've always had this mix of being prodigiously wise and thoughtful and having some equanimity about me and then being incredibly delayed

and overly concerned with the opinion of others. And you know what I mean? like it's that kind of, so to be thrown, even though I was 29 or 30 when we started that show, I don't know, I feel so much more formed and settled now, obviously. So it wasn't like I, I know it's different than doing it as a teenager, but not vastly different. You know what I mean? Not as different as one might think. Yeah.

When I think about what entertainment was like before the internet, before cell phones, I didn't know anything about any actor on a TV show that I watched. Right. Right, right. Like, I grew up watching every sitcom. Like, name a sitcom from the 80s. I grew up watching that. I didn't know anything. Like, you didn't know things about people. So we also got to experience a time in entertainment history where everything was available to people. What we wore, who we were wearing, right? Like who were dating, where we're going, what car we're driving, you know, all these things. So that also is very different. And I think gives people a sense of ownership of, the actor in a way that really previously hadn't existed that way. Yeah. It's so personal, you know? Yeah, and it's really unnerving.

I mean, it's like a weird thing where I want to do this incredibly public thing, and I want to also have the right to my own complete privacy. It's like, look at me, look at me, but only when I tell you and when I tell you. Exactly. And a lot of times I'm like, don't look at me. Like, that's the, I always feel this war between the, like, writer-director in me and the actor in me. Like, I really love being behind the monitor. I really love being in an editing room. I just, there's something about still being creative, but not like the camera right up in my face.

There are certain days that I am when I'm working that I wake up and I'm like, the last thing in the world I want to do is be looked at right now, you know? And then there are days where I'm like, I've made some more peace with it and I'm like, but I think I don't know, I know other actors who don't struggle with that as much as I do. 100%. And I'm envious of them. Also. I mean, I usually sort of divide actors into two categories.

You know, there's people who really want that applause. Like, that drives them. And then there's people who just want to be told they did it right. You know? And like for me, like, it's not about the fame, the things, the things you get. Like, that's not what it's about. I want to know that you're happy. Right.

And when you tell me you're happy and we move on, I did my job, right? And that's a very different, you know, it's a different neurosis, right? It's a different look at me. I wonder, I wonder if we can kind of return to some of the... Simulation theory? Ish. No, I want to return to a little bit, you know, kind of a side angle of what you were talking about in terms of fame.

And I really, you know, it's kind of like for people who are actors or athletes or public people, you know, we're kind of getting a magnified experience of, you know, partly being on the receiving end of other people's worship, meaning worship of fame or, you know, what their favorite show is or whatever. And I wonder, you know, when you think about sort of other things that we worship, what did you learn? You know, you kind of mentioned, like, if you think that fame and money are going to make you happy, but I'm kind of curious what else you learned about what we worship what we're seeking and sort of where were the lessons for you in what you really would like to kind of serve?

Yeah, wow. I mean, it remains a negotiation for me because I didn't get the thing where I was like, oh, I'm in the wrong business. Or I should be doing something else. I actually, I feel like I've isolated some gifts of mine that when I'm just dropped into the creation of them, the collaboration, with people that I love and respect, I'm really lit up and I feel really complete and whole and like I'm walking the right path. But there's all these ditches like on the side of the road that I can

trip into. The opinion of other people has like been just one of the big demons of my life. Like what will people think? What's the, you know, 99 people love it. One person didn't. I'm obsessing about the one person. All of this I think is pretty like human nature stuff. But, But I'm really alert to like the shadow thing of like love me, tell me I'm good, tell me I'm okay, tell me I'm brilliant, whatever. And all of that stuff is a real distraction from the good work that I feel like I can do. And some of it is just coming to peace with like not shaming myself for having those feelings. Like are you an enneagram person?

Yeah. Do you know about the enigram? What are you, by the way? Do you really have to ask? I'm a four. Oh, you're a four. Okay. Yeah, all the people who commit suicide.

Those are my people. The roomies and the Patty Smiths. Yeah. Yeah. Like really, really deeply. I'm a relational four. So, yeah, I'm like a very, yeah. So I'm a three with a four wing.

Oh. But I feel like as I'm getting older, my four is becoming much more pronounced. My three is dimming a little bit. Because you're getting healthier or unhealthy? Well, I don't, I don't know how to answer that. You'll have to talk to my team of therapists. But my three, once I learned about the enneagram and the three is the achiever and they

don't feel like they're loved for who they are only for what they do. I kind of like forgave myself a little bit because I used to think like, oh my God, I'm broken, I'm damaged. And I'm like, no, no, no. I'm like, this is my factory model. Right, but it's your four that will tell you that that's true. That it's that you're broken. That I'm broken to damage.

Sorry. Well, my four was the part of, my four was the part. Was that the part that liked to drink? Probably. Yeah, and get all moody. Yeah. My four also hated more than anything before I was, you know, more successful. Like just pounding the pavement auditions, walking into a room and seeing 14 guys who looked vaguely like me.

Like that was the, that was death to my four that needed to be unique. But that's how you knew who came from the religious schools in Columbus. Well, it's also what made me want to be successful because I was like, I can't be in these, I can't be thought of, you know. I just, I needed more special. I needed more special, I think, yeah. All of which is like, it's a little embarrassing to talk about, but it's also like, that's what we're doing here, I guess.

Yeah, for embarrassing ourselves. Yeah. Speak for yourself. But I don't know. I'm fine. I'm going to be 50 this summer. And there's something about that approaching birthday. I was 30.

Didn't rock me. 40 was fine. There's something about that one that is really like looming for me. And it's transforming somewhat into. But it really, I do find there's a lessening of like the, why did I say that? Why did I do that? Like, I'm just, I'm finding some more kindness for myself, which has been a long time coming. So you're recently married? Yeah, five months. Wow. Yeah. Is this your first marriage? It is. Wow. It is. Were you, I mean, not to get personal. Were you waiting? Like, did you think like, oh, I'm just not going to get married?

Well, it's sweet. Looked at it. Through the lens of attachment styles. Yes, which I'm also familiar with. The character I played on TV was, I think, of very much an anxious attatcher. And I'm very avoidant, you know. So that's like when people say, like, you're just like that. I'm like, no, he was an anxious attatcher.

I'm avoidant. Like, it's like, I don't know if even people speak that language. But I found, you know, when people say, like, I had to worry about not getting married on the first date, I was like, I had to worry about not getting divorced on the first date because I would be like, this is why this isn't going to work. This is. And I was really, I was just constantly kind of building cases against people and just plotting my exit out of everything.

And I had some great relationships. They just, I just wasn't healthy enough. And I didn't kind of know who I was and what I needed and wanted. And then turns out I needed like to be with a therapist who was from New York City. And I, you know, I dated. so many people kind of in the biz, you know, and in the arts. And I thought, no, those are the people that light me up. This is the, and that's where I meet people. And then I just, I met my wife. They take your life for it. It was just suddenly like that thing where they say, like, it doesn't have to be

that hard. It could be actually enjoyable and fun. And, you know, we have our stuff like everyone, but I just am pretty psyched about it. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about avoiding attachment. You know, there's a lot about attachment theory now. It's like people are putting it in their dating profiles. And I've, I've read, you know, some pretty interesting kind of, you know, articles a little bit critical of using that nomenclature in place of other words, meaning like, maybe you're not anxious attached. Maybe you're not anxiously attached. Maybe he's really ignoring you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. For you, you know, sometimes when we talk about these attachment styles, you know, some people really want to attach, but it feels so scary that they will pull away.

And then other people really kind of want to do with. And, you know, out, even though they know that, you know, socially that's not favorable. Right. What did it sort of, what did it look like for you? Well, I think I agree that some of this stuff can be incredibly reductive and that there's a bigger kind of keyboard to play and all this stuff. I do think that underneath the deepest part of an avoidant is an anxious attacher. Like underneath it is like that very human need to connect and love and be loved.

But there's a wound. just like, okay, I learned that if I'm going to say, show these authentic or messy or ugly parts of myself, I will be rejected and therefore I'm going to get out before anyone sees these. And it's not conscious. It's not conscious. That's the thing. You're just like, no, this feels bad. This feels like I got to run away.

I feel like I'm going to die. I feel like I'm in prison or whatever those things was. Yeah. You know, I mean, just when we feel. Like suffocating? Yeah, like when you feel threatened or like with intimacy, you know, I was like, I got to get out of here. And I just did a lot of work around that stuff.

Like, I did a lot of work around, like, I had to really go into the hard drive and be like, where did I get this? Like, why am I, why is this so hard for me? I always felt like, like there's a day in school where they teach you how to have healthy, long lasting relationships. And I was like, I think I was sick that day. Like, I didn't get that. And I was so good at other things.

And I couldn't figure this thing out. And I just, you know, it took me like really a decade of like doing some very deep. work and I just met my wife at a time where I was just a little healthier, you know. It's very, I mean, it's very, it's, you know, it's heartwarming. It's hopeful, you know, I think because a lot of people feel like if they didn't have the right template, right, or if they didn't figure it out that they're not going to, you know, so many things about the way you speak about, a lot of these kind of pitfalls like relationships and fame and attention, you know, they are things that that you do

hear a lot when people talk about the draw to numb out, right? Right. Like, and you've talked a bit about alcohol and you've talked about, you know, some of this incredible journey, which we, you know, we want to talk to, you know, specifically more about. But I wonder if you can sort of articulate, you know, were there times that other things seemed like a solution, you know, a temporary solution for a permanent problem, as it were. You know, was that alcohol? Was it work? You know, was it, like, what did that feel like?

And how do you release that? I mean, I think that we're always kind of running science experiments on ourselves. We're like, okay, if I eat pizza five nights in a row, this is how I feel. Okay, let's jot that down. Like, this is, you know, and if you're paying attention, you'll actually see cause and effect everywhere. You're like if I, you know, don't get good sleep or I eat, you know, or if I drink and, okay, now hangovers, I'm having weirder hangovers than I did 10 years ago. For me, it's just kind of, I have twin impulses. I have like a pleasure-seeking hedonist that is okay with some kind of self-destruction.

And then ever so slightly stronger is this feeling of like wanting to be really healthy and alert and have some longevity. to things. And that part is more pronounced now that I'm older. But it's hard. I mean, I think that,

yeah, I was, my ambition to, like I said, some of my ambition, I think, was appropriate and right and others of it

is to counteract the discomfort with like the fame and the visibility I was, you know, especially when I met in when I first came on for the first two seasons, I noticed my drinking had gotten really, it just, there was an uptick in it, you know.

Is that like when you go home? Like, like the glass of wine just started earlier and earlier? What did it look like? It looked like a bottle, like a bottle of wine and then smoking a lot of pot and then waking up and not remembering getting into bed kind of thing. Like that's what it, that started to happen. and quite a bit.

That's numbing. Yeah. And I also think my stuff with women was very kind of tied into alcohol, but very much like there was an addictive quality to that, you know, relationships or, you know, I use relationships like loosely around that. You know what I mean? Interactions. Yeah, there were interactions that were piling up.

And I just, you start seeing like, okay, this isn't the best version of me. You know, there's, I always felt like there was this kind of better version. And I've let go of that a little bit and just been like, okay, I'm all of these things. I'm all of this. But I've written and talked about this, but I ended up going to Brazil. I started working with ayahuasca, which I did a lot over about a decade. I haven't done it for quite a bit. But it was really important to me.

And it was really... Give me a time frame. Is this... So this summer after the second season in 2007, I went to Brazil. I did six ceremonies down there. I went to Columbia and did three more that same summer. So I came back in Columbia, I had this evening that was like all about my drinking. And I have some alcoholism in my family, not active addiction in my house I grew up in, but grandparents and stuff like that.

So I kind of like, I really saw that it was like it's in me. It had my, it's hooks in me. I could see how much it had its hooks in me. So I didn't drink for about four years. And then over the years, I would go like two years are not drinking, one year of drinking. three years of not drinking, six months of drinking. And it's been about seven years since I've had a drink. And my life is just infinitely better without alcohol. It's like, and I'm not, I'm not opposed to consciousness alteration. I enjoy the occasional whatever. But I just have, I kind of have

this truce with alcohol. Like, you stay over there. I'll stay over here. And I don't mess with it. it's um you know we've talked about it here you know it's like a literal toxin you know um and Jonathan do you want to tell about my mym doesn't drink anymore I mean a couple sips and and your your flush it has some pretty intense started to have some pretty started making my hands itch oh that happens to my wife yeah like I think I I mean I think I'm wired for that I'm definitely I've got that gene and you turn red too well I don't it wasn't so much turning red, like everything started itching. Oh, okay. And I was like, this feels really

like a no. Yeah. You know, like if the body keeps the score. Yeah, as I heard it does. The body was really yeah, and I, it wasn't even that I was, I mean, there have been times, you know, that I've drank more than one ought. But, you know,

I, what I know to be true about alcohol is that I'm nicer after I've had a glass and a half of wine. I'm nicer. You like me better. I promise, you know? And I listen to a lot of AA speakers and, you know, that's a very, very common thing that addicts will say is like, I, I don't know what it is about being sober that makes me so ornery and complicated. But for me, I no longer wanted that solution.

Right. So you don't drink anymore. I don't drink any. I mean, I have like a sip of Manashevitz on Friday night if we make a kiddish. But no, I don't. I stopped. over COVID and also like my sleep really shifted. Yeah. But, you know, there was a lot. I mean, Jonathan has witnessed, you know, there was a lot of, you know, especially as a scientist, me not reading the data. Right.

You know, that my body was kind of, you know, putting out. So, yeah, I think I would have really liked to go to Brazil and Colombia and have had, you know, like the kind of experiences you're talking about. You don't need to do that. I know, but like mine wasn't as fun. Mine was like, well, I'm not going to. a drink anymore. I'm itchy. Exactly. But yeah, I mean, it sounds like you were a little bit ahead of the curve on the ayahuasca game, you know, mazzledove to you. Yeah. I like to say you can't,

you know, swing a dead cat in Los Angeles without, you know, either hitting an I-a-o-as-a-sir- and I was incredibly, you know, I had this zeal of the newly converted. I mean, I would, it got to such a point where I was at this very fancy place. And I saw a well-known person who I won't say, but she looked at it and she did like, she beckoned to me with her finger. And I just walked up to her and had to look behind me to make sure. And I got up and she said, so I understand you're the person I talked to about ayahuasca, you know? And I was like, oh, okay, this is like, because I was talking to everyone about it. I was such a freak. You were that guy. I mean, it was just like it was so astonishing to me that it existed and and I was I mean a lot of people didn't know about it

and I was just and I wrote a lot about it and ended up not publishing a book that I had sold and I I'm now I now don't think it's for everyone and I'm I'm a little more modest. Did you think it? Oh yeah. I mean I had the like all politicians have to get in a room and drink this stuff. I know that feeling. Because it's such a feeling of like oneness and unity and like the last thing you want to do is wage war or hurt anyone.

Yeah. I mean, I really had this realization of like, oh, this is why they made pot illegal because people who smoke this won't go to war.

That's a Bill Hicks joke. Like he actually has the whole thing about that. Correct. Yeah. I mean, look, and in a, you know, in a more intense sense,

you know, when Timothy Leary, you know, sort of came on the scene and was sort of articulating some of this. It was like, there's a reason, you know, and we had, we had Rick Doblin on and, you know, so like we talked about, you know, sort of those, it was one of our earlier guests. Well, Josh, can you take us to the first time?

You know, it was obviously many years ago. It wasn't as popular. What was going on in your life and, like, paint the scene that you're like, this is something I'm going to go explore. Yeah. I mean, there was the uptick in drinking. There was, you know, how many, your mother was a strange arc because it was like the first couple seasons we were just on somewhat quietly. It had like a really rabid fan dates. It had a young audience for CBS, which they really wanted. And that's what kept us on the air. And then like the fourth season it went on Netflix. And that's when it kind of became a hit. It just like it tipped and exploded. And we all felt the kind of difference out in the world. But those first two seasons, I was, you know, just navigating so much. I also think there's something

about when you're unformed, this is what I, this is what I, this. is kind of what my movie liberal arts is about. One of the themes is like when you're in college or just out of college, it's like everything's in front of you. And then these things happen, life happens, and things get crystallized. And suddenly you're like, oh, this is my story. I'm not going to have another story. Like these nine years will be these nine years and it'll be in my obituary.

And like there's just, there was a sadness with the almost like crystallization of the fact of things, if that makes sense. So I just, I was in some kind of. of low-grade despair. A friend mentioned it. I'd never heard of it. I picked up this book by Daniel Pinchbeck called Breaking Open the Head, where he was also in despair and remembered these psychedelic experiences he had in college

that were really powerful. So he went on like a worldwide tour of like shamanism and substances and, you know, entheogens. And he just tried everything. And I read it and then through another friend just randomly, they were like, this guy, Ralph Miller's coming into town. He's talking about these trips he does to Brazil. People, my friend, David, went and had the best time.

So I went and heard this guy who's still like one of my dearest friends in the world. I just was with him last night. And within five minutes, I was like, I'm going to do this. Like, I'm going to go down to Brazil. I'm going to spend two and a half, three weeks down there. Can we just, I just really like sometimes people go to therapy. Yeah, all of which I had done. Oh, okay.

So this is what I was going to. There was a 12-step groups. Like, not all of us are like, I'm feeling despair. Let's go to Brazil. Yeah, I don't know. It was some sort of like, oh, yeah, this is going to happen. Huh. And then I went down there and...

Wait, hold on. What did therapy say to you? I don't know if was I, no, I wasn't therapy at that time. Like, because sometimes people try an antidepressant. Like, that was der rigor. Yeah, you know. I don't know. It felt more like a, like a stedel melancholy.

instead of like a clinical depression. It was a schedalcoli, you know? It was like, I just felt like Chicovian and sad, you know? I don't, it didn't feel like I needed, although I, you know, I went on an antipress for like three days in my late 20s and it was a disaster. I had like a manic fit. Look, I don't care if you're on medication or not, but usually, oh, it was not a match. It was not a match.

I was like, I was grinding my teeth. Like, it felt like I had taken some MDA. Like, it was really like a very intense experience and they were like, you got to go off this. And then I found the power of Now by Eckartoli and then my depression lifted. Okay. So what happened? I went down there. I don't know.

I just, I felt really called and I did it and I felt like something just shifted. Is it in a group? Yeah. Were you recognized? I can't remember. No. Well, no, not really. Okay.

Yeah. Did you have to prepare? I mean, you do like a very kind of diet. Yeah, people may want to know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And then it was their integration after? Yeah, lots.

So what is that like? Sitting around and talking about it. Got it. Yeah. Meditating, walking on the beach. It was just really peaceful. I came back and I felt, I don't know, I felt kind of newly born. And then I started drinking again and the thing went down.

And then I went to Columbia and I had the one about my drinking. So you don't have to like go into specifics, obviously. if you don't want to, but like, was there a profoundness to that first experience that you're like, oh, this is a gateway that I'm going to feel really called to do? What did the continuation? Because there aren't that many people, I guess, who have done it as consistently over the number of years. So I'm curious, how it shifted and trying to get to that question by sort of understanding, you know, how it started. Well, I don't know if I needed as much as I did. At some point, I think I do have.

have a psychological addiction or dependency on this thing. And that's why I took a lot of time off. Also, I was in a community that kind of crumbled and it was really hard for me just emotionally. But what I would have said was, you know, if someone said, oh, I've been looking for a spiritual community and I found this church and the choir is unbelievable and the pastor just said these words that lit me up. And I couldn't believe how at home I felt. And someone said, oh, that's amazing. They said, I'm going to go back next week. And they say, well, why do you need to go?

You went. So I think, like, spirit is something that needs to be, like, tended to, like, on some regular basis. There's all these studies, like, if people have a spiritual community, they even live longer. Yeah, we did a talk at Southby about the intersection of science and spirituality and specifically talking about, like, what actually is happening in the brain when you pray, when others pray for you, when you have gratitude, when you have mindful, when you have mindful, Yeah.

Yeah. I buy it. I really do. So for me, it was just like, well, I just had this transcendent, incredibly impactful heart-opening experience. I would like to have that again, you know? And I went back until at some point I felt, you know, there's this feeling that you get like kind of homework.

Like, okay, I need to make an amends to that person. I need to stop drinking that, whatever, putting that in my coffee, or like, whatever it is, you know. Or an idea for a project. And then at some point it was like the homework kept being the same. And I was like, I think I just need to go live outside this space. But I'm not opposed to revisiting it. What was the homework? I mean, it depended.

Like, a lot of it was, I think it was just about living more consciously. and being less reactive and, you know, just being awake more, if that makes sense. And then there were other specific things like, you do owe this person an apology. I found one of the most astonishing things about ayahuasca was when you're locked in like a real grievance with someone, it would grant me the ability to see it entirely from their perspective. And I was suddenly like, oh, that's what their experience of this was. I can now offer a full apology because I see where they, where they, where they,

They were tripped up. It's much more fun than a fourth step. Yeah, but I've done those too. So they're both effective. Yeah, I'm going to ask like a real downer question. Great. When we talk about these ceremonies, right, we talk about ayahuasca and, you know, also you can extend it out to psilocybin.

You can extend it out, you know, even to ketamine, meaning when not used as a party drug, you know, when used in, a therapeutic, you know, environment. So what's happening, what we know is happening is like these are really powerful chemicals. And in particular, you know, ayahuasca is a very sacred medicine. You know, it's a very sacred medicine. And it's been used for, I believe, thousands of years. Probably.

Yeah. It's not sure. But yeah. So, you know, what we know happens is that a ton of, you know, fascinating things happen in the brain and in the nervous system, right? So, you know, there's a lot of. this kind of cascade that happens and all these chemicals are released and, you know, um, you know, one of the things people often report, you know, with, with mushrooms. Like,

everything seems so clear. And it's like, yeah, because like there's actually sensory things that we know or, you know, kind of being filtered differently and it's affecting, you know, this. It's affecting that. So I wonder just, you know, when we think about it, you know, every time you have this experience, you're having this kind of, you know, chemical excitement, right? And it does. It brings all this clarity and it allows you to see all these things. And it could also be incredibly, dark and challenging. Right, right. Well, but also, but, but ultimately, and the idea is that in the right environment,

you know, there's something also on the other side of that darkness and that challenge. So I guess I'm just sort of curious, like, you know, what, what your sort of take is on it. Like, you know, of course it feels good to have those experiences, but I guess the hardest thing is like, what do you bring down from the mountain, you know? Right, right. Yeah, yeah. So I guess that's sort of what I'd be curious about, because I'm sure that, shifts, but as a sort of experiential, you know, thing, what, what did it feel like you were living

kind of in between journeys? That's a great question. I'm going to have to kind of like amble my way to an answer. One of the things, you know, when people talk about the like pharmacology of it, I always feel like you could be a neuroscientist, you could be like a proper like atheist neuroscientist and know exactly what's happening to the brain when you're under the influence of that, any of these substances. But at some point, especially with ayahuasca, you will be so far from thinking about the pharmacology of it. You will be like, I'm being bathed by an angel. It feels great. I feel at home and at one with the universe. Whatever. Whatever it is. And you will, it's hard to hold on to this idea of like, okay, these are just molecules in my brain. There's something like,

there's a being or a consciousness that is very benevolent. It feels feminine. It's communicating with me. It seems to love me. It seems to know a lot about me. And it seems to be giving me some very good advice. So you're talking about the spiritual, right? This kind of spiritual experience. I don't know. Maybe it's the same thing as my allergy to like simulation theory from a tech perspective. Like I don't, I'm fascinated by science. I like reading about it. But it's not the first way I like to conceive of the world. Like I like to think of things much more. I'm more of a mystic about things. I'm much more about like. This is all, you know, the kind of Vedic, Kabbalistic, like, this is just, like, just God just made itself into everything.

Did you feel that before these experiences? I think so. I think I had experience. I mean, I'd done some psychedelic. I didn't get into psychedelics until my 30s, which I actually recommend to people. I think your brain is too unformed. I had friends that were doing psychedelics in high school. And I just don't, I don't think the pineal gland can handle it at that age.

you know so um what did i take down off the mountain i mean i think that i the thing i took the most was that if this is nature like if this is actually like let's call it mother nature or the earth's wisdom and you can ingest it and it can communicate with you through this weird spiritual ecological technology i felt that at the heart of the heart of the heart of the heart of the thing was a benevolence, that it was not cold, indifferent, uncaring, you're on your own kid, survival of the fit. Like, it didn't feel like any of that kind of cold stuff. It felt like there was this heartbeat of benevolence that I was a part of that cared about me

and wanted me to care about others. Here's a hard question. Is that true? I think it's as true as we believe it's true. Like, I think, you know, I think the way certain people, I think that this is so relativistic. And I believe in, I don't believe that everyone can create their own moral system. I don't necessarily believe that. But I do believe in relativism in as much as how we believe the world should operate or how we operate in the world.

The world generally kind of gives us back what we're kind of envisioning. Like if we're. Well, yes, and I cannot imagine having that experience and then returning to being a full-time actor on an incredibly successful sitcom. It was incredibly disorienting. What the hell was that like? Yeah. Wait, I just want to clarify something.

I don't know. I don't think that people who are living in under terrible conditions, under terrible duress, under terrible regimes or, like, I don't think that's a problem with their thoughts. Like, I think there are geopolitical things that are happening that are, we are often at the mercy of. But I do know for me personally, it's like my friend Dion says this great thing. He says, I don't know if there's a God.

I just know that when I act like there is, my life is better. And I don't know how to run that through an actual scientific experiment, other than I go, I'm the scientific experiment. And I know that when I am forgiving, I get forgiven.

It's the prayer of St. Francis. I just kind of, I get back what I put out generally. And sometimes life has been. mystifying and unjust and unfair, and I don't know how to square any of that. But I do know that I felt, I felt very much like there's something good beating at the heart of this. It's not a punitive, you know, fire and brimstone thing.

That's what I felt. And as far as going into, yeah, it was so strange to be like having these Burning Bush type experiences and then like having to be in a strip club with Barney. you know, like one episode a month later, it was strange. And it created some cognitive dissonance in me. But I also tried to bring some of what I was learning and how I was changing and growing. I tried to bring it to the set. I tried to, you know, bring it there.

Was it received? Did you talk to anyone, your castmates, people on the set about what you were going through? I tried. I felt like some people were curious up to a point. and then it was kind of like, okay. It was not really talked about this kind of thing back then. There were like, you know, the first AC, Dave really wanted to talk about it. You know what I mean?

Like there were certain writers wanted to talk about it. Like it was, you could kind of see who was sparked to it. Well, I think that's still, you know, kind of to some extent, you know, I don't think it's only true of people who have had, you know, psychedelic experiences. but, you know, one of sort of my interests in, like, you know, intellectual religious thought is that, you know, the mystical teachings of many traditions were touching the same thing, right? Yeah. And so, you know, my sort of understanding, and I'd like to hear more of your take on it, is that, you know, the notion of benevolence,

the notion of what you're describing is a feeling of kind. comfort, right? And I do, you know, I can't help but think as a scientist, right? What is that? Like, there's something going on when you feel comfort like that, right? It's a, it's a sensory and kind of emotional, you know, concoction that's happening. But this notion, you know, of spiritual protection, right? The thing that we're saying makes you not want to kill other people, right? Makes you not want to go to war. Makes you want to forgive. Makes you able to literally see the other side of something, right? To see someone else's pain so that it's not just, you know, what they did to you, but what you did to them. You know, there's this sort of underlying notion of unity, right?

Like the whole planet, the whole universe. I wonder if you can talk a little bit more about what that spiritual experience kind of felt like and where that then sort of lived in you. I would read scripts through the lens of like, does this contribute to this kind of world that I touched there in, you know, South America or wherever I was? or does it feel like it's actually creating more toxicity in the world? Like I got really, and I, you know, I'm not opposed to playing villains. I'm not opposed to, I think villains are actually incredibly important in stories.

I just, there are certain stories that really felt like this is not going to help anyone. And I didn't want to be a part of those. The stories I wanted to tell, I always thought of it, you know, leave your characters better than you found them. Like, I always wanted to tell stories about resilience and about, yeah, benevolence. Like, the things that make me cry in movies are when someone's being kind. Like, that's what gets me. You know, it's not like when someone, you know, gets sick or so, although that's tragic, too.

But I think also once I became a musician, the songs I was telling that I wanted to sing were, like, heart-opening songs. And I don't mean this in any sort of, like, glib, facile greeting card way. I'm trying to get to the deepest perennial kind of thing. I have to believe that's because of what you experienced. I mean, but it's chicken or egg because like, did I respond so ferociously to ayahuasca because of who I was to begin with? Or did it fundamentally change me?

I mean, I don't remember being that much of a nihilist before. So maybe this was just, and I've done other, like, I've done ketamine and I am like, that is not my medicine. Like, whatever that thing does, it's like, it. doesn't do the thing to me that other people like it does. So I think we just have to... What does it do? What does it do? Like, yeah. No, what does it do? Yeah. It makes me feel nauseous.

And I don't want to make art about that. Got it. You know. It's a different kind of art. Yeah. Yeah. So, well, I wonder, you know, you've talked a bit about death. And apparently your wife is a specialist in helping people with these concepts. How does that fit into this kind of spiritual understanding. Like, did you come to terms with something in these experiences specifically about death? Yeah, that's a great question. I feel like it took away the fear of my own, like, extinction, like, the idea of, like, lights out. Like, I never quite believe that it was just lights out, but it didn't take away my fear of suffering and pain, which I still have. Yeah, right. But it did take away

this idea that my death, my not being here would be the most calamitous thing to befall humanity. Like it just kind of was like, oh, no, no, no, we're here, we spring up, we return. Wait, wait, wait, hold on. What? Well, I mean, maybe you want to talk us through that a little bit. What do you mean? Like, we were here, we spring up. We spring up and have a life. Yeah, then. And then we, I don't know, return to the Earth or return to the cosmos or return to the big soup or take on another body. That's not like bye-bye's. I don't think so. Okay. Do we come back? I suspect we have some sort of, but we don't...

Does that make you feel good? Yeah, mostly. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Have you, I mean, you've read about NDE's and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. We've actually had some pretty, pretty astonishing episodes talking to some NDE people.

So, and correct me on the science of this is wrong. I mean, one in particular, Elizabeth Crone, but yeah. At birth, there's this kind of rush of DMT. And at death, there's also this rush of DMT. and that's the active ingredient in ayahuasca. So I think it does mimic a kind of like birth and death process, but what it also shows you, I think, is that there's like a biological mercy to birth

and there's a biological mercy to death in terms of it smooths the passage in and it smooths the passage out. I read this book about Montaigne, the essayist years ago, and when he was in his mid-30s, he was really, wealthy guy and he was on his estate and he got thrown off a horse and he started having a seizure and he was like foaming at the mouth he was bleeding out his nose and they were rushing him back to the his mansion and he was fully alert he remembered it all but everyone was panicking around him and he ended up living much longer but his memory of it was that he was at death store he felt that he

was at death store. But he also felt this wash, something washed over him that was like he was safe, he was fine, he was going to be taken care of. And ever since, from that moment on, he never feared death because he said nature takes care of you when you die. And so, you know, having tasted the vine that brings you up close to that, it made me less scared of the actual fact of death and even the process of dying. Now, talk to me when I'm on my death bed. I might be railing. No, but that definitely, it frames how you approach things, right? Yeah. And I think we're still, much of humanity is motivated by this kind of denial and and, um, aversion to death. Like, I think that in our culture, like, we hide our old people. We

hide them on screens. We don't, you know, we're, we're all trying to hide our own evidence of aging. And I don't know anyone who's really immune to some of that, to some degree. But it does feel like it's so silly. The other option is dying young, which doesn't seem like a great thing. So I don't know, making peace with all of it feels like sensible, right? I don't know. This is sort of where it's kind of taking me. You know, you've talked, you've done some really interesting writing around porn, you know,

and around kind of like our sexual, you know, our kind of sexual nature's being manipulated, for lack of a better word, you know, and, you know, it's yet another one of these things that we both, you know, kind of worship and also that can very easily slip into, like, you know, kind of an addictive, you know, an addictive sort of pattern. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about, you know, what has compelled you to speak about this. It's something that, like, you know, there's very specific conversations that we're comfortable having about porn. Like, we're comfortable talking about, you have nerd, right? And we're comfortable talking about, like, sex trafficking is bad. And, you know, but there's, there's, there's not a lot

of comfort we have in sort of talking about this thing that most people don't want to think about it being problematic, right? People want their porn. And they want it all the time and, you know, right in the palm of their hand, as it were. Yeah. What kind of compelled you to talk about it? I think, again, it's like that kind of being the scientist of your own life and your own experience. Like, I think there's a, for men, especially, there's this kind of like, this is what is normal. This is what men do. This is what men are.

And I found that for whatever reason, my psyche was just too fragile for that kind of influx of image. imagery and and I never, I, it was almost like I stopped watching it at the doorstep of addiction or compulsivity. Like it was like, I could feel where it was going. And it was right around the time I was, I was working with ayahuasca more. So I think there was a, um, this urge to like cleanse my, not just my body, my psyche. Like I actually wanted to, because I found when I was a porn watcher, I, it wasn't just the watching. It was a, it was. the images and everything would just stay with me, kind of replay. And it took up a lot of real estate in my brain.

And I wanted to free it up for other things. Like, I could make a decent moral argument against porn, but it's not that interesting to me. I feel like for me it was more of a spiritual psychological choice. And I never, the two things, like getting alcohol and porn out of my life are two things that I never think about. I never miss them. I've had a couple, some people read, you know, this interview I gave where I talked about that.

And I've had some guys reach out to me who are really hurting around porn addiction. And I know a lot of guys who have really struggled. And it's different, you know, it's different when it's on the internet. Right? Like, we both grew up. Yeah. Go ahead. You know, it was just like.

I'll let you do the old person routine. Yeah. It's back in our day. We could just trade off sentences. That's right. No, there was a difference in sort of like how you acquired it, like the methods or, you know, and you know, not saying that it was, okay, I'm saying it was better, better in that it was less available.

Yeah. The, you know, you've talked about, you're kind of like the variety. I'm going to, there's this quote you have that porn preys upon our vulnerabilities and appeals to the lowest parts of ourselves. And you said, it's an extension of what I find to be so exhausting about modern life. were never not being sold things. Wow. And it's like, smart guy.

It's intense. No, but I mean, I don't mean to say like, oh, back in the old days, like, naked was just naked, but it kind of was. Like, and of course, there's always been a tremendous, like, variety and bad things and trafficking and, like, horribleness. But the, speak a little bit to sort of this, like, you know, this notion of, like, the lowest parts of ourselves and sort of the way that we can be sold things in the way that we are now, which is different.

Yeah. I don't know if I'd phrase it that way. It feels so kind of finger-waggy. Like I would probably write about it a little bit different now. I think we're doing this like incredibly intense experiment on our psyches by flooding our brains with this stuff. Like I, you know, there's all sorts of different ways to, you know, there's like ethical porn and there's like I don't, for me, it's just like. I just, I did feel like, here's what it is. I want to be choosing things.

I want to be choosing things. I don't want, I know what addiction feels like in my body. I've battled various addictions. I've worked programs around various addictions. And it's, you know, restoring the freedom of choice is like really nice. And being in the grip of compulsivity, not being able to say no, feeling choiceless is a kind of hell for me. And I just, I wanted to free myself. And I also, I just had a lot of healing to do around, like I said, like women in relationships.

And being a porn watcher was not helping any of that, you know. What underlies what you're talking about, which may not be as explicitly stated right now, is that drinking, watching pornography, in the way that it is available now, changes the functions of our brain. It changes how we think. It changes the speed at which we think. It changes the way we crave new information or we objectify people in the real world. People will think, oh, I'm just doing this over here.

I'm just drinking and then I go wake up the next day and I'm not drinking or I'm watching pornography and then I put it away and I go out in the real world. And what we aren't really able to show as effectively is the change that carries with us and that it isn't only about the thing that we're doing over here by ourselves or at a bar. It's how it's impacting us moving forward and those impacts are significant. When you talk about the idea of choosing, when we start to alter our brain in the way it functions and the way it's looking for novelty and the way it's looking at men or women, and the first thing that we may think or the images that we are just sitting in the background that we haven't been able to remove, start to make us then see a different

situation that may not otherwise be sexual or sexual, then we, that's where the choice starts to be limited. We don't have the freedom of being curious about what might unfold because we're stacking the deck towards this other behavior. Yeah, I agree with all that. I don't know. Like, I think that's exactly right. You know, we each have teenagers. And so, you know, this is also something I think about when we think about sort of, you know, it's enough to sort of ring our hands over this generation having like they're raised with phones. Look, Josh, the reason I rant for a second is because you're extremely eloquent

in not passing judgment. And I get it. I'm also not trying to pass judgment. I don't necessarily say anything is 100% good or not. You know, there's enormous amounts of sex positivity that happens with adult imagery. However, younger people having access to an unlimited amount, and this goes to gambling also.

The nature of putting this in our pocket means that we don't have to feel anything because there's always a distraction. And then we aren't able to really do the science experiment because we go so far down the rabbit hole. And what many people are sort of warning about it is that we aren't spending enough time in exploration of consciousness, whether that be through medicine or other realms, non-medic medicine-induced realms or supported realms. and instead we're just sort of, you know, having an overabundance of this. So anyway, I'll pause there for a second, but I think that's all under what you were saying and you were being very non-judgmental. You wanted to get some judgment in there.

We can do it. Well, just some caution because I think we're not really taking into consideration. My biggest thing is people should know if they're doing the experiment, what is leading to what? and where many people find themselves as being distracted, being upset, not having creativity, not being able to focus. And many of those things are caused by other influences that are not directly within their control. However, there are many things that we're being told are normal that have consequences that are not being presented to us. Well, this also speaks to, when I try and speak to, I have a 15 and 18 year old.

And when I try and speak to them about this, the notion is like, every generation, everybody thinks that the kids have got it wrong. And, you know, like, this is just, every generation is like, this is just the challenge that you have. And I really think they're wrong, you know? And I wonder, like, you know,

my parents thought it was nuts that I wanted my own phone. Right. Right. And then it was like, oh, well, we need call waiting. And they were like, why? Why would, you know, we needed Star 69 so you could know what, call you me, you know, and like these things were like crazy to them. And my parents were also,

you know, my dad was a middle school teacher. So he was interacting with young people. It's not like they were just like sitting and rocking chairs, you know. But I think, you know, for me, everything seems more ratcheted up with with the internet. Everything seems more ratcheted up with what you have available. And to me, it's just, it's a continuum of distraction. And this kind of speaks to, you know, kind of like the first point that we started with, right? Or like talking about fame, right? These are all the things that, in my opinion, I don't, mean to be this hippie. Like, that's what's separating us from a spiritual experience. Meaning, I believe state of nature is being in touch with what you access when you're on

ayahuasca. Like, I really, I believe that there's an extension of that state of nature that we all deserve to live in. Yeah. Yeah. And I also think, though, we're being very manipulated in our consciousness and our attention is being very hijacked by, many, many, many things. And I am under the grip. Can I invite my kids in so they can hear this? I'm under the grip of like I, you know, these games on my phone. The word, all the connections, the spelling B, the crossword.

I love them. I'm not giving them up because I feel like they're better for me than porn. You're a very smart guy. You must do very well. I do okay. I do okay. But an addiction to reading about the reading the news, you know, the website that we won't mention again.

All these things. make me choiceless on some level. I mean, I can exert some choice, but I'm alert to, you know, I love nothing more than having my hooks in a good song or when I'm on fire writing a script or, you know, a kind of muse letter or whatever. But I do them fairly infrequently,

given how many hours there are in the day, and it's because my attention is hijacked. And any, it feels like the hero's journey of our time is reclaiming our attention, reclaiming boredom, reclaiming the ability to just sit quietly with their thoughts

to walk your dog without something in your ears. You know, like... I feel bad for the dogs. Like, there are really many people don't even pay attention to their dogs. Yeah. But any...

I've really just had to pay attention to like, this is what hooks me and distracts me and takes me away from myself. And that's, you know, it's, I really try not to say like, porn is bad. Sure.

You shouldn't drink. All I can say is, I stop drinking and this is why. I don't watch porn and this is why. And then I found that people who are like very sincere and they've sought me out and they've said, I'm struggling with this and I can point them in some directions that would help them, you know? But I think there's something, I think we're all addicts at this point. I don't think it's like we have to really broaden the idea.

of what addiction is. I think everyone needs some 12-step program or another. I agree with you. I agree with you. If you don't have an addiction, you're addicted to controlling other people, I promise. Go to Al-Anon. Yeah, I was just there this morning. And, you know, it's, it is like, we're all, we're all, like, we're all, like, worshiping at false altars.

So it's like, how can we reclaim some of this? And I don't know, like, it's really hard to. be in a kind of free market capitalist society where it's like money, fame, you know, success. Like it's kind of everything. And I've tasted enough of life and I've tasted enough of that stuff to know that's not that's not going to get you what you think it's going to get you. I do want to ask about music. Yeah. I'm a musical person. I've never heard of somebody picking up a guitar in their 40s. Yeah, I did it. Like you gained proficiency. You also have a beautiful singing voice. Thank you so much. Beautiful. Thank you.

I mean, I really, really enjoyed kind of getting to know some of your, you know, musical life. Was this something you, like, always thought, like, I want to learn to play guitar and then you finally did it? No. It's very difficult. Yeah, it was like... Like, your brain is done. Like, evolution-wise, you should have been dead 15 years ago. Why?

Because, like, forgive me, like, you know, we weren't made to live this long. Like, learning guitar when you're at that age, like... Well, yeah. Evolution is like, did he make, did he, did his sperm do something when he was 20? And like, then we don't really need it. I think that there, I think that everyone should learn to do something totally away from where they've been rewarded in their 40s and in their 50s and their 60s. I learned how to go through menopause. Does that count?

Congratulations. That's an achievement. Different. I think that when you're younger, you're always trying things and failing. Sorry, that wasn't the best. joke. I learned to live without hormones. Sorry. Okay. Also, maybe not the best. Sorry. It's fine. But, you know. When you're a kid, you're always like trying things and failing things and somebody. But you start figuring out what you get those applause for and what you

get success, you know, where you're, and you just lean into that. And I had to get really good at being bad at something. But I started writing songs with my friend Ben Lee, who's an Australian songwriter. And we wrote an album together. We toured it. I did not play any guitar, but we wrote all the songs together, music and lyrics. I love that. And then on tour, I started picking up a guitar and I knew a couple chords. And we would tell the sound guy, like, turn my mic almost, turn my guitar almost down to you where you can't hear it. And I would watch band and I would pick up his strumming. Like, I was playing guitar in front of paying audiences way faster than I show. It was hilarious. And then I started writing my own songs. And then I got a

guitar teacher on both coasts wherever I was and I would just play every day and songs just started pouring out of me. Amazing. And now I like make music and tour and put out albums. Is that your passion now, would you say? I would say like, your wife is your passion. My wife is my man. Being newly married. I think that there are a few artistic pleasures as great for me as writing a new song and then sharing a new song. Like it's, you know, I've been part of like nine-year stories, 90-minute stories, but like four-minute stories are also like incredible. If you can really synthesize and crystallize something and get it in a three- or four-minute song that is just as moving as like a movie or...

That's incredible. Like, I think it's great. Yeah. I really love it. I started acting because of doing musical, so I'd always sang. So that wasn't new to me. But I had to... My musical theater voice is way different than my singer-songwriter voice. Like I had to transition into a sloppier... I was going to say, I've heard your singer songwriter voice. That's not a musical theater voice. No, I had to actually, Ben really helped me. He's like, you need to lose the drama school.

Like, you don't just, you can let things slide out. You know, it's almost like being in the theater and transitioning to film and TV, where it's like, if you're bringing your voice and speech class in here, you're not going to book the law and order. You're not booking that law and order. So, yeah, I, and learning how to write lyric. I really, honestly, I had this great songwriting apprenticeship with Ben,

who I had this equal partnership with, but he would also give me all these tricks along the way. He's like, this is easier to do it this way. There's an app that comes up with rhymes. If you need a rhyme. Oh, I used a rhyming dictionary. I didn't know that. I didn't know about this.

Steven Sondheim used a rhyme dictionary. And look how far he got. You don't have to apologize for that. But he would tell me things like, sometimes my language was too poetic. And he was like, you know, song lyrics. are not poetry. Right.

Like we have this song called Green Street that I really love on our second album and we have this line we're keeping on just keeping on and he was like

terrible poetry but you're going to love singing it. Wow. And it's true. It's absolutely true. It's like a great line to sing. Who were some of your favorite

musicians? Like who do you listen to or who did you like listening to growing up? Yeah, I mean there's all the like pantheon people. I was really obsessed with Joni Mitchell

in college. Leonard Cohen and Bob Dylan and I always wilt at this question. Tom Waits. I mean, I really like songwriters that have some gravel in their voice. I don't love perfect voices. I've been listening to like the new hooray for the riffraff is a great, great album. Do you like pop music? I don't. I don't actually seek it out, but I have never disliked an Olivia Rodriguez song.

Oh, right. You know what I mean? It's very hard to dislike that. She's really great. Yeah. Are you a Swifty? Somewhat, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I would say I really, I'm more am obsessed with her as a cultural phenomenon. Like, I'm just like, what is this? Like, her ability to kind of like... Change the economy. Yeah, and keep this thing at a full boil all the time is like astonishing to me. And my wife and I worry about her.

We have like codependent. Like, is someone checking? Is she okay? Does she have an in-house? I mean, I saw the documentary. I like that documentary quite a bit. Yeah. I like the Billy Elish document.

documentary. Oh, yeah. And I like her very much. Like, I don't really seek these things out, but when I hear like a good masterfully produced and constructed pop song, I'm like, that's incredible. Do you like counting crows? I do. I go back to August and everything after I will. An unbelievable. I will listen to it probably every six months, just straight through. And it's never not amazing. Correct. My 18 year old, that's one of those albums that he discovered. And like, nothing makes me happier than singing August and everything out, like with my child. Because I, that's, for me, that's one of those, that's a perfect album. It's a perfect album.

I got a list in my, correct. I just read Noa Kahn, who's quite a good songwriter. Do you know him? He just sang Long December with Adam Duritz at a festival, and he was like, these songs are everything to me, you know. But that's a, that's like Mount Rushmore album for me. Damien Rice's O is another album that I'm obsessed with. But, yeah.

Awesome. Where can people find out? All the things that they should find out. Where can people hear your music? Yeah. And where do you like to direct people? My music is available wherever fine music is streamed and bought. I just put out an album called Ulygy, Volume 1.

Volume 2 will be out very soon. It's more like B-Sides, Foky Acoustic. Is it about your way? It's less about death than the first album is really about death. Okay. As you can tell from the title. Right. But also death of the old.

Sure. It's, you know, death birth, renewal. Yeah. Some literal death. That could be your next album. I write these things called muse letters, which I haven't written in a while, but I'm switching over to substack. Oh, okay. So you can find me on substack.

And what else? I don't know. The substack is probably the best way to find what I'm up to lately. I've never asked this of someone, but you use a lot of big, nice words. Can you name five books that have impacted your life? Yeah. I'll just name kind of recent books that have really walloped me. We were just talking about, I don't know if we did it on the air, but Christian Wyman's My Bright Abyss. Yes. Astonishing book. I'm halfway through it. I think it's like just a masterpiece. I just read this Kawakbar book called Martyr, which is excellent. Really a page turner. It's got a great twist in it. It's really fun and sad and wonderful. I love Richard. roar very much. He's a Franciscan priest. Do you know him?

Uh-uh. He has a book called Falling Upward. Oh. That's the spirituality for the two halves of life. Yeah. Okay. Got it. For aging folk like us, it's an excellent, excellent book. I've kind of like done a deep dive into like midlife self-help genre like Albert Brooks. I just, Albert Brooks, Arthur Brooks. I just read from strength to strength. I'm reading Chip Connolly's book about midlife. Just kind of like, again, that approaching 50 kind of thing.

What else? I love. Crossroads, the last Jonathan Franzen. Are you at Franzen person? Yeah. I love Anne Lamott. Do you know Anne Lamont? She is this salty kind of sober character who writes, I would describe them as like spiritual pep talk books.

She wrote a book about writing called Bird by Bird. That a lot of people read in sight. And she's just, like, I'll read anything by her because she's, I don't know, she feels like a, like this salty aunt who's like your best bud, who like gives you all her wisdom, you know. She's really wonderful. Were you an avid reader as a kid? I was, yeah. I just saw the outsiders on Broadway.

And Essie Hinton was in the audience. I was there opening night. Did you read those books when you were a kid? No. So there's four of them, Rumblefish and that was done. This is now a text and the outsiders. And I read and re-read those books. So when they introduced her, she was like, you know, just behind us.

And I was so overwhelmed at like what, you know, 13-year-old me would have thought about that. It's time for rapid fire, breakdown style with Josh Radner. What was your mother right about? Take a jacket. You'll be cold. 100%. It's the most Jewish thing I do is I always have a jacket in case I'm cold. Jonathan always has a jacket.

his whole life in his car in case the whole world collapsed. What was your father right about? Character doesn't matter in the short term. It matters in the long term. Nice. Location that promotes your best mental health. I do well in like Palm Desert. Really? Mm-hmm. Huh.

Yeah. I'm not a... No one's ever said desert. I'm not a beach person. Okay. I'm a Lake Mountain Desert person. Okay, what's wrong with the beach? The same? I get a little like, like ocean melancholy. Like I look out at it. It feels so deep and big and scary.

Okay. You like a lake. You want to see the other end. No, I like to. Yeah, I need to see the other end. You're also from the Midwest, so I get it. I'm from a landlocked place. So the ocean was new to me. Do you have a mantra? I mean, I have an actual mantra. Which I know you can't tell me. Okay. Do you have a, do you have a saying? Like a like an a credo, a, um.

something that you live by. I feel like I need to get one. I don't know that I do. Okay. Do you use your other mantra? I'm assuming it's a Transcendental Meditation one. You still use it? I use it less frequent.

I was a twice daily meditated for years. I was really in it. Like 20 minutes twice a day? Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Through Transcendental Meditation? Mm-hmm. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Okay. I still use it when I meditate. Okay, got it. I did sign up for the Pasta for a 10-day. Oh, nice. my wife's done a couple of them and she really urged me.

Nice. Yeah. Who's been your greatest spiritual teacher? I mean, it sounds like ayahuasca has been your greatest spiritual teacher. Well, yeah, I'd say that. But also Richard Rohr, this Franciscan, who I got to know, he really saved me at a time when my, when I was, I don't know if my faith was way, but I was in a very spiritually precarious and

uncomfortable and uncertain place. And there was something about his writing and his voice and his calm and his benevolence that really softened me and welcomed me back into like a theological space that I really didn't want to leave. He's a really important writer to me. Moment of Best Intuition. I've had a bunch. I had a really strong intuition about where I should go to college to Kenyon College in Ohio.

which turned out to be the right school for me. Marrying my wife. Like, there's your wife. Like that moment was the best, yeah. Who are you most competitive with? I mean, probably like that evil twin inside me. And finally, what do you know to be true? It's better to be kind.

I mean, that's what, you know, Aldous Huxley, who did every substance and met every teacher and read everything and he was asked on his deathbed like, what do you, you've done it all? What have you learned? And he said, I'm just embarrassed to say, it's just like try to be a little kinder.

That's what he got. And I think that's where I'm ending up. It's been really so much fun talking to you. Thanks so much for having me. I've really enjoyed this. Yeah. It's my and biologics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you.

She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction one and now she's gonna break down