Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Julie Bowen: There is No Normal

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

Julie Bowen (Modern Family, Boston Legal, Happy Gilmore, Quitters podcast) opens up about anxiety, the ambivalence of motherhood, and the steps she takes to stay grounded. She takes us through her anxiety journey in the early days of antidepressants, her meditation methods, and the importance of not waiting to seek help. She and Mayim discuss parenting children with vastly different baselines and the negative effects of physical punishment. Mayim breaks down therapy flooding and explains why trauma is not a prerequisite for mental health struggles. Mayim considers the dynamics of partnership and the benefits and disadvantages of being an introvert in another installment of Moments of Peace & Calm. Julie Bowen's Podcast: https://www.quitterspod.com/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you go to therapy? Yes. She may have, like, an entire, like, garage full of cars that I bought her. But at this point, and I don't care because it worked. When you find somebody good, it works. Hi, I'm Myambiolic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's Myambiolic's breakdown.

She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's going to break. You have to welcome back. Jonathan Cohen. It's the return of the Jedi. I almost said return of the Sith, but I thought he might not like that.

Return of the Jedi. Welcome back Jedi Master. This is our first episode of 2022 Back Together. Hello, Ma'am. Hi, everyone. This is our first episode back together. Reunited. And it feels so good.

It sure does. You went off and did your own thing for a while. I was unavailable. And I appreciate you filling in for both of us. I think you're kind of terminally unavailable, but that's a different story. Yeah, it is our first episode back togetherness. And we had a pretty big and exciting kind of holiday time for our podcast. We hit 50,000 followers.

If you are not one of them on Instagram, please go ahead over to Biolic Breakdown. Join us. We've got some fun contests we do there. We're posting a lot more kind of personal stuff, like, about our process and it's a really fun thing to follow. We also, we're still happy for people to subscribe if they haven't. Tell your friends about us. There are still some people who don't know that Miami Biolic has a podcast all about mental health and wellness. And we think it's up to you, folks, to help people know about it. Spread the word. Spread the word. Speaking of spreading

the word, who are we talking to today? We're going to be speaking to Julie Bowen. We're going to be talking about how you get from, you know, growing up in Baltimore to being, two-time Emmy Award winner on one of the most successful television shows, really in history, I think, went for 11 years. Julie Bowen played Claire on Modern Family, and we're going to get to talk to her about her childhood, about being the middle of three girls, about kind of growing up in a very traditional household that also had some interesting features and really about her anxiety journey that started in the early days of antidepressant prescriptions. And yeah, she shares in a very human a very, very human, very quirky, very funny way

what her story is and what it's brought her to today. All right, welcome back to me and Jonathan, and let us bring on Julie Bowen. What does your mug say? Mother effin workwife. This was from one of my... I have a bunch of women that work with me. I call them the wives.

And this one says mother effing workwife. I should get you that mug, Jonathan. I'd like that mug. Julie, take us back. Sure. Take us back in time. Where are you from? You know, what kind of house did you grow up in?

What did your folks do? Oh, wow. Yeah, tell us a little bit about young Julie. Well, I grew up in Baltimore, Maryland, actually. A town that gets a very bad rap for some reasons that I agree with and some I don't. Racial strife, X, not into it. But it's actually a very beautiful town, and it kind of feels like a small town where I grew up. And I grew up in Prepeville.

Have you ever been to a golf course? Yes. That's where I grew up, like on a tea, essentially. Yes. With, like, you know, everybody had nice houses and everything was low key because it's Baltimore. So it's not a super expensive city. So everybody could have, not everybody, but I was fortunate enough to live in an area where everybody sort of had nice houses and nice cars and we all went to independent schools.

And I was spoiled, spoiled, spoiled, spoiled, privileged from the city. top to bottom. Now, Baltimore is, it's outside of D.C., correct? Yeah. It's a, it's one hour north of D.C., but if you really drill down, it's south of Mississippi and mentality in a lot of ways. And I love, I do love Baltimore and they've got like all these people working to really turn the beat around and get more progressive about Baltimore. And I am all for it. But it has had a kind of a very quiet drumbeat of racial tension for a long time. Is the Wire Baltimore? I was going to say she did not grow up in the part of Baltimore that the wire is in.

The Wire, the Corner, Homicide. Got it. Those are our three biggies. And actually my dad, who still lives, has lived in Baltimore and his family's been there for generations. And he loves the place. He, like, he, like, reminisces about the days when you would go to here and there and hang out and, like, eat Alonzo's pizza and all this stuff. and he's working, he called me the other day and said, I want to make a movie.

He's a commercial real estate guy. I want to make a movie about Baltimore. But the good stuff, the good stuff. And he was, because it traps people's hides who live in Baltimore that it's like the wire, the corner, and homicide. Because we do have some solid crime, but it might be time to, oh, and also cereal, serial, serial, the podcast. Yes.

Oh yeah, right outside Balmour, hon. Wow. Yeah. Did you get his elevator pitch for what the good stuff would be in the movie? Like, who's the antagonist

in the Good Stuff movie of Baltimore? I love my dad. I love you, dad. Great guy. Not an elevator pitcher. We had about a 20, 25 minute conversation at the end of which I was like,

I don't know what you're saying. I think there's a lot of like small, like feel good stories that come out of Baltimore. It's still like a mom and pop kind of a place. And, And instead of that being sort of like a badge of shame that it should be something that really celebrated.

And I do. I agree with them on that one. I absolutely do agree. So your dad was in real estate. Tell us a little bit more about your kind of home life siblings. What'd your mom do? Was your dad in real estate then? My dad was a head of a loan department at a very small bank. Back before Bank of America and like Citibank owned everything. There used to be local banks. It's really weird. I try to describe this to my children. They were like, I don't get it. like it would be a bank and only maybe they had one or two buildings and that was it and the whole time they're like how did you use an ATM? I'm like they didn't have them either.

But my dad was a loan officer at a very small bank in Baltimore and people would come in and pitch him awesome ideas for like why they wanted a loan. And these people would come in and pitch these commercial real estate propositions and he was like, damn, that's where they're money is. I'm out of here. So he paired up with one of these guys, Mark Shapiro, and they've been partners ever since on a handshake. And it's like serious man love. And now I'm the, but my dad had three daughters. So none of us were, I think I was sort of the boy. And I think if you gave my, is there truth serum? Does that exist? I think so. Because my dad was forced to tell the truth. I think he would say that I was sort of the boy of the family insofar as him wanting to kind of have me going to the family business in the traditional sense. And he's a traditional guy. And I said,

I'm going to L.A. and I'm going to be an actress. So, but they're still there and they still love it. And your mom? Was she an at-home mom? Oh, my mom was the 70s rolled in the 60s with just like a little whipped cream topping of the 80s. She'd come on from. school and she would be smoking her Carlton 100s with a three-way tanner, you know, the like, I'm making it with my hands, because that's, because this is a visual medium podcast. And she, you know, with like basically like Johnson's baby oil on her face, getting that, making sure you get the tan all the way around and just smoking it down in a bikini, maybe doing some yard work.

She was a very salt to the earth is. They're both married and both alive. And Salt of the Earth Midwesterner, who was. would move to Baltimore to be with my dad, and she was a full-time mom of three. What's your birth order? Fucked-upness? The middle child? That's right.

Bam. I'm going to high five you. Yeah. With three girls, two, it's like, that is common. Birth order does matter. It really does. I mean, we always say that my oldest sister, who's phenomenal and talented, she's interior designer, funny, life of the party, but closest to the bomb blast.

And so you do absorb more of the blast. And that is her story to tell him. My youngest sister is an infectious disease doctor, clearly brilliant, and kind of less concerned with, it doesn't get as hung up on like family drama because she was furthest from the bomb blast. And I was sort of next in line. And so being the middle was, were you, I know we don't use the term tomboy, but just speaking kind of how you did about. We do, though.

We do. I mean, if you gave me a choice at age 10, 11, 12, like early, early, before puberty and early onset, they'd be like, do you want to be the skirt or do you want to be the pants? I would, like, and gave me, and they said, or do you want to just be neither? I would have gone pants or neither. No one gave me a choice.

I think I would have definitely been one of those kids that was like, yeah, I don't really, because I didn't feel like I, like Mary Poppins, knipped waists, bras, like all the accoutrement being a girl, I was like, not into it. So, yeah, the term tomboy fit me very well. And when did you find theater? Well, again, my very salt of the earth, Midwestern mother, God bless her. God bless the benign neglect, would send us out.

And like she even had, she had a triangle that she would ring. Like, suddenly we were in Texas. It was go outside. There was no watching TV. You could watch TV on the weekends. There was nothing on. Or, except that weird Sunday morning cartoon, I guarantee now that you ever saw it.

It was like a biblical cartoon on Sunday mornings about David and Goliath. And Goliath is the dog who asks probing questions like, Davey, why did Jesus die on the cross? And we were so desperate for our TV time. So desperate that we would watch this. We're like, awful. I hate it. But I'm watching TV.

So she would throw us out in the yard and say, and out with the neighbor kids and say, come back when you hear the triangle. And we are mostly girls in this neighborhood. There are a couple boys, not many. And they were, if they had something to say, we weren't listening. So we would put on plays. And that's where it all started. That was how we entertained ourselves. We'd write elaborate plays and put them on.

And we would take the littlest sister and dress her up in slutty clothes because that's what we did. And she was the cigarette girl. It was a different time. So do you come from a funny household? Like was it clear like, oh, we're all kind of quirky and funny? Because look, plenty of kids do plays in the yard and blah, blah, blah. But like you obviously had something. different more that kind of you pursued.

You mean like a damaged, a damaged ego. I think that there's that sense. Okay, did either of you go through that phase when you were a kid where you were sure that everybody could read your mind and you were the only one who didn't know? Jonathan is still in that phase. I can hear her thoughts before she says them. But do you, but do you know that kind of paranoid feeling that preteens kind of get? like, or that, I went to a school with uniforms, okay?

So you could wear this dress or you could wear a skirt or you could wear pants. And you think it would be the easiest thing in the world. Every day there's going to be one third, one third, one third, one third. But there would be these days where you'd show up at school and it felt like everyone had called each other the night before. They were like, it's pants. Do not tell Julie, whatever you do. She's going to show up in the dress. She's going to look like a fucking idiot.

And I would show up and I was like, that sense of, oh, God, I am a. outlier, I think I didn't grow out of it. And I think I leaned into it instead because I never felt, I remember consciously feeling like, can they read my mind? Do they talk to each other and they don't talk to me? And then I ended up sort of attaching to that sense of outsiderness and feeling like, that works for me. I think I'm going to run with that. And I never really leaned into what all the other sort of. sort of options were supposed to be, I guess, um, full-time mom or, uh, lawyer or, you know, infectious disease specialist. Yeah. She, she, she clearly had her shit together and I was busy being like, can they, can they read my mind? My and Bialy's breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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You know, what kind of was it? I think there was a casual, I'm trying to think of what I can say and that I would be okay with them hearing, which is we've had all these battles positive and negative. Our dinner table and we all had dinner together every night. Like every night. And it would get loud. in a good way and in like hash it out ways.

But we always had dinner together. And a lot of times I do let my dad off the hook by saying, hey, man, he definitely grew up hearing, seeing. And my mother, too, this very traditional old-fashioned ideal of women do this, men do that. And that crossed well-past professions and gender sort of roles into sort of gender roles as far as emotions like women are hysterical men are the keepers of the calm and the cool and boys will be boys let's just say it got a little dark around the brett cavanaugh hearings yeah it's all you need to know and we moved on from that and we just got it never to discuss it again so that when i say close to the bomb blast i mean i think that as the eldest and it is her story to tell not

mine, but I can see, I think Molly felt that's my oldest sister, a need to navigate those waters and make sense of them where I came along was like, oh, you can't make sense of that. And Annie was like, what water?

I'm fine. You had an Annie and a Molly in the same house, like from Annie? That was her friend in Annie. I know. Sarah Highland played Molly on Broadway, or no, in the movie. But by the way, ma'am, like You might appreciate this because, wait, what's your whole long name?

Myam. Myam. Sorry. It's okay. Myam what? Bialic. But middle name. Oh, boy, yeah.

What the hell? Sorry. Fuck me. Okay. Did you ever wish you had a nickname? Or a normal name? Well, like something like... Yes.

Okay. So our names are not, and none of our names are Molly, Julie, or Annie. Right. Our names are Mary? No. Julia? And Anne. What?

Yes. You want to understand. And now in the days, it was all fine right up to 9-11 when, like, suddenly your license had to match your sad card had to match. I have 10 names. You're a Julia? My name is Julia. My birth name was Julia Bowen Lutkimer. What?

And then I got married. And at that point, I was working, and everybody knew me as Julie Bowen. So I didn't dump Bowen. So now I'm legally Julia Bowen Phillips. on all my like legal schmigel stuff but still pay sag as Julie Bowen and it gets very confusing. Sorry, can we do Lugdmire? Lute, like a flute?

Lutmer. What kind of name is this? It's German. I was going to say the Meyer is German. What a beautiful name. It's a little commoner. Okay, sorry, I digress. Just about your name though.

I think the first time we've said your full name in 60,000. Mayam Hoya? Yeah, it's actually Chaya. Chaya. Chaya? What would that nickname be? So, okay. Like, my.

My? My. I was my. And some people, like, my friend Brian Dorfman called me Mai Tai. My mother called me Ma'amai. There's not great nicknames. Let's get back to. What were you like in high school?

Were you already like, I'm going to be an actor? And when I get out of here, I'm going to Hollywood? Yeah. When do you say to your dad? I'm not going into the family business. I'm not going into commercial real estate. You know, I was, I was, I hate it when actors say this. And especially people, I'm wearing 400.

I just did Ellen and I'm wearing 5,000 pounds of makeup and hair. Like I've got all this like, you know, like a pony gave its hair to me today. So, and I hate it when people are all like glammed up. And they're like, I was a nerd, but I was a nerd. I was, it was. I studied a lot. I was like, I got this. I always liked having a path. You know, like, you do this and you get an A. And I was like, done. And I got all of my self-esteem from getting A's. And it wasn't until, and I always did the acting in the backyard and acting in the school plays. And then I was like, you know what? I can do this. I was in seventh grade and I auditioned for the high school play was probably mean nothing to anybody here. Go ask Alice, which was a it was a cautionary. tale about, yes, about doing drugs.

And there was only one role for a younger person in it, the younger sister. And I was like, I'm going to get that. And I did. And I was like, like, you only need a couple bites at that apple when you're like, I can do this. And in college, I, that some indie film came through town. I went to Brown and it was a period piece. And I was like, I can, I get this. And I did.

And I was like, yeah, I'm going to take a swing at this. But I did give myself a time limit. I gave myself like, I can't, I think I said if I'm still struggling and can't, can't pay my bills by 25 from acting, then I'm out. And I made the cutoff, I think, by about a year. Wow. I mean, I know so many people who come out here around that age and they are not able to pay their bills, but they keep at it. And I have so much respect for them But also, Ma'am, you've been doing this for a million years.

Like, if you had known how much this, how hard it is, you wouldn't have done it. Like, if you have to be a little dumb to do it, a little naive. Well, I mean, there's, well, and I think, you know, what you said, you know, there's, there's a tremendous amount of, I don't mean ego in terms of, like, thinking that I'm the most amazing person and I'm the only one who can do this. but there is something that gets satisfied from this dance that we do. And it's the rejection dance and then the finally conquering something dance. And then, oh, it goes from small parts to bigger parts. And then you get, you know, you get a series of opportunities that lead to something like modern family, you know, one of the most prestigious and, no, and critically and publicly and popularly acclaimed shows in television history.

Like that's where sometimes. it goes to, you know? And then sometimes it doesn't like, right. I know my sister, Molly, again, she was, she was the actress, you know, and families get roles. I mean, the family members get roles. I was supposed to be the artist. Not a good artist at all. Molly was the actress and Annie was the doctor.

I guess Annie got it right. And Molly was and is a phenomenal actress. But the dance, she could not do that. that dance and rejection hurt her. And I think you have to be a little dead. You have to be a little needy and dead inside at the same time to feed off of that, that dance, that energy. Yeah. If it were a relationship, you'd say it was a sickness. It 100%. I totally agree with that. So what was your kind of, what was for you being able to sort of pay bills? Did you do commercials? Like, where did you start when you were, you know, around 25?

What did that look like? Well, I moved to New York right after Brown, and I, you know, again, this was four million years ago. So it was kind of a big deal to have any tape on yourself. Like, you wasn't like, you know, not everybody had a camera in their pocket. So now I'd done this indie film, like black and white period film in college. And so I thought, I'm going to take that. I knew someone who had dated this woman who was an agent. and she said, I'll take a look at it, and they took me on.

So I was like, okay, I'm getting closer. And then I just got a, I started going out for commercials. And I can't remember, I think I started doing the under fives on soaps, which is like, was like a category of payment, which is like they would pay you $1,500 a week. If you, and you would go in and you would never have more than five lines in an episode. And it was like somewhere between background and actually. and like principal. And I was $1,500. That is paying all my bills.

So, yeah, that's where I started. And that gave me the confidence to sort of just keep marching on. And I don't know if you like to talk about your age, but from 25 until modern family, how many years was that of kind of the other work you did before you got modern family? I was, I turned, I was 39 when I got modern family. Wow.

And I did lots of stuff. I did lots of stuff. And, you know, you do a lot of guests, a class of 96. I remember that. I think that was my first guest star. Class of 96 was like, by the way, came and went. Nobody remembers it. But I do because to me it was like so meaningful.

They flew me to Toronto first class. And I'm like, what? And I flew back and had to. And then they'd send me an up town car. back into New York City and I had to get back in my waitressing uniform and they had to drop me at the restaurant for my shift. And I was like, well, you know, okay, a little bit closer. I'd never flown first class in my life. Because yay, though, I grew up with an enormous privilege and I know it. My parents were like, and you don't fly first class and just chill, just slow your role. So when you got modern family, which obviously went for many years and, you know, many nominations and several. wins. One when I was also trying to win.

When you got kind of that level of fame, I'm kind of curious, like, how that impacted both your sort of sense of self and then also kind of how that rippled out, meaning, you know, many actors, you know, you kind of, you keep at a certain level and you're paying bills and you're living life as an actor and you get a job here and there. But when you get on a show like that, like that is, that's your steady work. I mean, that is being consistently, it's being consistently employed. It's job security that many people don't get in acting, much less anywhere else.

How did that shift for you? Like, did you feel like, wow, I just became a different, you know, kind of person? I was fortunate enough to have been sort of chugging along for a while. And when I was living in New York in the late 90s, I was doing a show called Ed for four years. And there wasn't a lot going on in New York at the time. So we would get the invites to all the parties, all the New York parties. And like we're mixing and mingling with like the Sopranos stars with no business being there because we're at this little show. But so I had a little taste of what it was like to have like someone take your picture on the street or recognize you.

And I did not care for it. It made me panic. And a lot. Like I would full body sweat. Like I'd done something wrong. So I had a chance to sort of adapt in a very small way. I was like, okay, just breathe. You haven't done something wrong.

You know, you don't have toilet paper sticking out of your underwear. And so by the time I got into, then I did, I had done a bunch of pilots. I did Boston Legal for a while. I did some movies. But it's still like a slow, calm chug along. And then, yes, modern family was huge. But I, at the same time, the exact same time, the day the pilot was picked up, I gave birth to twins. So I went from having one kid to three kids to having a full-time job on a very successful show all in one day.

And guess, I mean, you have kids. You know which one takes priority. So it wasn't my life changed enormously, but not because people were like waiting in the bushes to take my picture when I went running. It changed enormously because I got zero sleep, felt guilty all the time, loved going to work so much, took the long way home. days. It was like, I think I'm going to go get stuck in traffic because three babies is a lot. And it was really nice to go somewhere where people brought you a coffee and you got to make jokes. But we had famously short days, really fantastic hours. So I took the long way home and really struggled with like my sense of identity as far as, oh my God, I am, I should be a

full-time mom. These kids need a full-time mom. But then again, they are reaping the benefits now, and they grew up with me having one job for 11 years. Wow. And that's, yeah. Well, how long were you on Big Bang? So, yeah, when I started on Big Bang, I had an 18-month-old and, you know, a three-year-old. I mean, I was pumping. You know, I was a very, I was a long-term breastfeater. So I pumped for, years, you know, and that was my life, was constantly feeling tethered. And yes, you know, people would say, like, do men feel guilty all the time when they go to work? Like, there's something about, right. I was very, very torn. And, yeah, very, very confusing times. And also, you know, when Big Bang ended, yeah, I mean, I was on for nine years. So I then had basically a 10-year-old and

an almost bar mitzvah boy. And I got divorced. during the time I was on Big Bang. I got divorced when my kids were four and seven. So, you know, I had nine years on a show where, you know, I was still learning how to be a mom, you know, honestly. Like, I had literally just finished my doctorate, cranked out this baby, like, was not planning on being back at work. I thought I'll do, you know, a couple shows, get my SAG insurance back.

I didn't know I was going to be a regular on a TV show with a nursing infant, essentially, toddler, I guess, at that point. my parents were not Midwesterners or from Baltimore, but I come from a very traditional, very gendered structure of family. So the notion of me being like out of the house, working, breadwinner, like those were very foreign things to me, to my whole structure. You know, when I met my now ex-husband, we were both grad students. Like I was not an actor.

I also know you were married, I mean, I was married almost 10 years and you were married also, you know, around a decade-ish. So that's also, you know, it's a really. really, it's an enormous thing to undergo, especially when people get to know about it, you know, publicly. My kids are now 16 and 13. And yeah, it's very interesting still working. It's interesting also being on a show after Big Bang that is not a, quote, smooth running machine that's been going for so many years that we have short days. So my life is, yeah, it's very, very different. And yeah, being a parent, it goes with you everywhere.

It does. And I wonder, have you watched? Have you seen? Maggie Gillen Hall's movie The Lost Daughter I've been told I need to be in a very non-vulnerable stable place

and I said then I probably will never see it It's I have to say I don't know why I too resisted it because I was like

oh boy I tried to read Elena Ferranti so many times and I'm like I can't I even I tried the audio I'm like

Annie the doctor sister she read it she read all of them and be like can sit there and talk fluently about him. I'm like, it's, there's something I can't connect to.

And I had a COVID exposure, about 10 days ago and had to go, had to have five days alone to make sure that I wasn't spreading anything. And I watched everything. And so I watched The Lost Daughter. And I was like half, you know, while folding laundry, like, I'm not going to watch. It's so fucking good. And to talk about the, oh, the ambivalence of motherhood and how it. and how it owns you whether you own it and you know you can try to push back away from it and you can

you can you can go to work and tell yourself men go to work every day and it's fine it's fine it's fine and it's just it's a worm that's in you from the minute you give birth to those kids they just own this part of you and watch somebody struggle with that on screen as good as Olivia Coleman and Jesse whoever plays the younger version of her it's fucking wow and made me really appreciate that somebody was telling this story. But it's not easy to watch. Yeah. Well, it's not easy to live either.

Do you have sort of things that keep you sort of sane grounded? Are you an exercise person? Are you a meditation person? Are you a shopping person? Like, what's your... I am an exercise person, but not classes and not groups and not loud music and not. and not a club. I definitely am like a solo exercise person.

That definitely keeps me sane. Prozac does a lot to keep me sane. How long has that been helping? Since I was 19 when it first came out. Yeah, you were one of the beta testers. I was really first, first round. I was like, sign me up. How did you find it?

Was there therapy back then? I had, I had enormous anxiety as a teenager. And I saw this therapist and it was a nothing burger. And then somebody put me in touch, my mother, I'm sure, put me in touch with this guy at Johns Hopkins named Ray DePaolo, who was doing this groundbreaking work with these new psych meds. And I was like, no, no, no, lithium or thalium or whatever, those like Thorzine, I was like, no, no, no, I'm not. They make you slow and doughy and, you know. And I remember sitting in his office. in him drawing this line, these three, you know, this line and saying this is normal.

So drawing sort of this wave like up and down going, this is what, what an normal person's brain does. It goes high. It goes above the line. It goes below the line. And he says, you think you're doing fine. You are going up and down. But you never get above the line. Your brain never gets above the line. And I, and he said, I'm not asking you because I was like, you're going to flatten me out. you're going to turn me into a zombie. And he said, no, I'm just going to shove everything up so that you're just normal. You're just going above and below the line like every other motherfucker out there. He didn't use that term.

He's a very nice man. And he's like, you just have to promise to give me eight weeks. Wow. And I remember somewhere around I was dating some guy and the son rose and set for him. And he was everything, but he was kind of a mean motherfucker. And I remember one day being in his apartment and, he insulted something of mine. I think it was a jacket or something.

He said, I looked stupid. I don't remember what he said. It was something rude. And I ordinarily was sort of taken like in the gut. And instead, I was like, I just looked at him. I started laughing. And I couldn't stop on me. He goes, what is wrong with you?

And I said, nothing. Nothing. And it was, I was like, oh, this shit is working. I was still, you know, I was going above and below the line just like a normal person. wasn't suddenly like manic and crazy. I just realized I didn't have to have a thought and let it go around the toilet bowl like 15 times. I can now just let it circle once and flush. Wow. So have you been on the same medication then? Yeah, I tried to go off for babies. I did. I tried to go off getting pregnant and I had, I went to many doctors and there was a specialist at UCLA.

It was like, yeah, don't do that. That's stupid. You can go. you go down if you're really concerned. And I was like, what about breastfeeding? It's really important to me to breastfeed and stuff. Like, it does not enter the breast compartment. It isn't in the milk. And I was like, well, my kid fails third grade. I'm coming to you.

And I did go down, but in some sort of like, oh, this will help. Like, the reality is Prozac did not affect my pregnancies or my children or my breastfeeding. and anybody has a different opinion. I kind of don't want to hear it. Too Bad House ad. Wow. That's my new mantra. We'll see how that goes over. No, I just was like, I found the doctors. I definitely did see one pediatrician who I said,

listen, I'm on Prozac, and I'm going to have this baby with my first, and I want to breastfeed. And she said, I cannot have you as a patient if you are on press. And I said, huh. And I went and found someone else. And I didn't go, but I didn't go doctor shopping to the end of the earth to find somebody who was like, well, in the full moon, if you light your asshole on fire. You know, like I wasn't listening to Woo Woo! I went to a bunch of different doctors.

They all, she was the only one who said no. And ordinarily in my life, like in relationships, or, you know, I will listen to the one person who's mean. I'm like, you must know something real, right? You know the truth because you're mean. What is that? I have that. Yeah. Is there a pill to make that go away? I don't know. All I know is for some reason I had the wherewithal not to listen to that one woman and to listen to 10 other doctors and a specialist at UCLA and blah, blah, blah, blah. He was a specialist in prenatal depression and anxiety. Pre and postnatal. Do you go to therapy?

Yes. How long have you been in therapy? I started going to therapy as a teenager, started and stopped. We had some really great moments like the Ray DePaulo of it all, Ray DePaolo at Johns Hopkins. God bless him. And some ineffectual therapy, some therapists that I felt like I was just checking the box. But after my twins were born, so a year into modern family, they were almost a year old.

And I felt there was a lot of stresses on my marriage and I had a lot of doubts about what I was doing. And I thought I'm supposed to quit this job and I'm supposed to take care of these kids. And I feel like I'm going further and further away from my husband. And that was threw me into the therapy that I'm still in with my therapist, too, I've been with now for how old are the kids? They're 12. So 11 years. Wow. Yeah.

Yeah. And we started with twice a week. Oh, yeah. I love it. Oh, we went deep. We went real, world deep. And she's a full doctor. So she may have, like, an entire, like, garage full of cars that I bought her.

But at this point, and I don't care because it worked. When you find somebody good, it works. What does that mean? Like, just, I mean, I know, and I think Jonathan knows. But for people listening, let's say, who are still kind of riding that resistance train about therapy, what does it mean when you find someone good, it works? For me. good therapy. And I have to be careful the way I phrase it because I also realize how

incredibly privileged I am that I didn't have to worry about a price tag. Or there was a time in New York when I had a therapist who was working with my insurance with SAG insurance and you have a certain number of sessions on plan before you start having to pay out of pocket. At the time I was doing okay, but I wasn't doing so well that I could pay for therapy out of pocket. And I got a call one day from SAG, God bless, I hope they've changed the system. And they're like, hi, this is SAG, pension and health. Are you suicidal? And I was like, excuse me?

Is it, your doctor said, you're suicidal. And that's why you need extra sessions. And I was like, so I get, and I went to her and I said, what the fuck? She said, oh, no, you have to say that so that I can get you more sessions covered. And I was like, but do you realize they called me at home now? He's like a lady. Some chick just called and said, are you supposed to? So I recognize as a backdrop that I am incredibly privileged and I can doctor shop and I can pay out of pocket.

Because what I have found is very valuable to me is to have a full doctor who understands brain chemistry and does talk therapy. And there are not a lot of those therapists out there. But for me, that combination was invaluable because, and still is, because I still is. I will ask her. I'll say, what is happening? Why do I not? I started having therapy narcolepsy. Where we would get into a discussion and I would hear it and I was processing and then my chin was on my chest.

I was slumped and asleep. You have? I have had this. Yeah. Myam, I feel so much better. You're the, oh, I joke about it, but it freaked me out when it happened. It's very strange. What do you think happens?

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I was like, nothing, nobody did anything to me. And my current therapist said death by a thousand paper cuts is still death. And that's when I knew that she owned my heart. Because I do feel this, I'm like, something has to happen to you. There has to be big trauma, right? Yeah, it's called being a human, Julie Bowen. Right. But I am, anybody listening to you have, you have, you have,

money, you've got children, you have a, you know, you're rich and white in America. You're very pretty, too. You're privileged. You're great cheekbones. You're beautiful. Thank you. And so what the hell do you have to talk about? And why do you wake up in the middle of the night feeling like something terrible has just

happened? But I think to me, that's what I hope is so comforting to people that, you know, your mental wellness, your state of being comfortable existing as a human being is going to vary from person to person. Some people have a much easier time with it. I envy those people. Also, people who are dumb seem really happy a lot of the time. Oh my God. I would love it. Narcissists, I didn't really understand until recently, really, truly understand that they don't think anything about anybody else. And I'm like, oh, that sounds lovely. No, but the experience of processing emotions and things that happen to you, memories, associations, everybody's brain

is different. And also I just want to say, like, the notion of normal, like, there's not really a normal. Of course, there's, like, a normal that generally speaking lets you roll through life without, oh, you know, crippling anxiety, or panic attacks and depression, or mania that makes me stay up all night. But the notion that there's kind of a normal is really a misnomer. And I think exactly what you're saying, like, that blazer alone is stunning. And I'm thinking, anyone with that blazer has no problems in life. But the fact is, like, we all have our human experience, you know? Yeah, but and every time I, like, okay, I love podcasts. I love talking.

I'm starting a podcast and with your people. And I love listening to podcasts. And I've been listening to Rich and Famous. Okay, no, sorry, even the Rich, which sounds like a terrible name. But they talk about kind of how horrible things happen to really. They talk about Elizabeth Taylor. They do seven episodes on like really, like deep dive. Like, what was it like to be Elizabeth Taylor?

And I just finished listening to Jessica Simpson. And it's, and in the end, though, and I'm, spoiler alert, she was sexually abused as a child, not by her parents, by somebody else down the block. And I'm like, well, see, there's the thing you can point to, though. There it is. Like that, of course that makes you X, Y. of course you make choices, you know, that are bad because that horrible thing happened. So how do I measure up my, and do I want to measure up my thousand paper cuts against that? And why do I even merit the incredible therapy that I get and medication?

This notion of a thousand cuts. Death by a thousand cuts. Death by a thousand cuts. I mean, there's a lot of research and thinking about developmental trauma that is more trauma, the misalignment that we get as children from our caregivers where children are designed to receive their needs and to get their needs met. And when there is a misalignment, it can be subtle, but that constant misalignment. And we can talk about, we all grew up in a different time where the children's needs weren't considered the way that they are now. And we can say that society has gone too far in the direction of catering to children's whims. But for the most part,

we've all gone through some misalignment where we've had some sort of chronic overexposure to our needs not getting met. And that lasted over many, many years. Well, and some people come in with a baseline that is depressed, meaning literally lower than, let's say,

what is optimal. So it's not even like you're trying to create a trauma. It's just that some people are going to be more. This is my number one reason for not hitting your children. Some children, you can hit them indiscriminately whenever you'd like to or spank them. Not that we're suggesting you should. No, no, no.

And those kids are like, whatever, I deserved it. I'm fine. And other kids will be deeply, deeply affected by the fact that their caregiver caused them harm. And you don't know what kid you're going to get. And that's what I said. I have no idea what DNA system came out with my child. So I would rather not run the risk that I have super sensitive children

who might get impacted. But you have two boys, right? Two boys. Right. And are they vastly different? Oh, see, I have three boys that I can. I can't believe, if I had not seen them exit my vagina on my own, I'd be like, really? They are so different.

Different. And they need in a perfect world, which it is not, they would each have a different mother. Right. Or I could mother each of them differently. But one of them, you have to put your face in his. Yeah. You have to, like, raise your voice. Right.

You have to be like, you know, really get in there to make him hear you. And one of them, if I raise my voice at all. the tears come. Yeah. And I'm like, how did this, how did this happen? And they're very, very different people, but you're right. So the baseline that they come in with, it's like nature versus nurture, nature all the way. Nature won that battle.

But I have to kind of figure out how to parent these three. And that's, I don't fault my parents for not, in a way, I think the 70s benign neglect helped because they had three very different daughters. and had they been, they probably weren't equipped to figure out how to be very different parents. But at the same time, I still would love to know why I wake up with the feeling of battery acid. Like, I describe it as there's been a crash, that that is the feeling that I wake up with or all of a sudden will seize me in the middle of the day. And I'm like, there has been no crash. There's no, everyone is okay.

But it feels like there's been a crash. and I don't know where it comes from. That's why we keep going to therapy. Yeah. It has pushed me to intense therapy. And I got desperate enough to get real woo-woo. And it's not woo-woo. I meditate.

And it works. And I kind of hate that it works because it's right there. It's always right there. What do you do? Do you do transcendental meditation? Do you just do guided meditations? What do you do? I signed up for the Transcendental Meditation.

Then they were like, well, you have to be. You have to come on Tuesday. And you got to bring something white and you have to bring a fresh flower. And I was like, I can't make it on Tuesday. They're like, then you can't come. I was like, wait, what? No, I just, I literally sat down one day when experiencing so much anxiety. I was like, I'm desperate.

I'll try anything. And I said, I'm just going to count my breaths. I'm going to count to 100 breaths. And I figured, how long does that take? I don't know, five minutes. I don't know. 25 minutes past. And I was like when I,

and I was like, I opened my eyes. I looked at my watch and I was like, holy shit. I'm like a fucking Dolly Lama. And I felt 10 degrees better. You know what I mean? Now,

that doesn't always happen that way. But something does happen and something changes and shifts. And I only got to believe in it when I read in the New York Times, there was some Sunday thing in the science times about how meditation, I needed to know the science of why it changes your brain before I was willing, because otherwise I'm like, it's fucking woo-woo shit. I'm not going to light

some incense and, you know, hope. That sounds like bullshit. But when I read about how it really works, I was like, okay, I'll do that. Do you do that every day or do you try? Hell no. I would love to lie and say I do. And if I really cared, I would, but I wait until I'm desperate. How's that working? And that's great. Emergencies or nothing. There are no atheists in foxholes. And that's me. Like wait until I get desperate.

And I'm like, oh my God, oh my God, I'll do anything. I'll make a deal with the devil. I will now meditate. A lot of us are living with that feeling that there is something horrible about to happen or has just happened. And we don't know what to do with it. And many of us are medicating it. Many of us are distracting ourselves.

There's no real way to escape it, but we can shift it. So that was awesome to hear. Thank you. And you guys know what the science is behind that brain. Because I read it and promptly forgot it. My takeaway was the New York Times says this is real. And I think also this is a great example of for thousands of years, several traditions have been doing this without the New York Times to talk about it. It is a way of life for many, many traditions. and even, you know, my personal tradition of Judaism,

like, Kabbalistic meditation was a large part of, yes, an elite section of Jewish practice, but it was the foundation for the prayer structure that we still do to this day, but what they used to do in three hours, we do in 20 minutes, right? Because there used to be breaths and motions and movement. Like, for thousands of years, many traditions have known this works, but it takes Western culture to be like, but where's the data? I need data points. bring it on and then I'll do it.

And I need it from the New York Times. Same. Or a trusted source. I'm not going to hear it from if it comes up at BuzzFeed or whatever. I'm like, no, I need it. I have to know. And when I saw that it made, I think what it really was is also I'm getting older. And like, you know, my vision's gone.

I'm wearing context right now. I can't see shit. Right. And you start to lose name every now and again. You're like, God damn it. And that article said it helps keep your brain elastic. and chewy and young. You are elastic, chewy and young, Julie Bowen.

Yay! Okay. Julie, it's been really, really a delight to get to know you. You know, I've seen you at red carpet events and, you know, obviously have followed your career and as Big Bang Theory and modern family would, you know, often be at the same events together in those years. It's really, it's a pleasure to talk to you. Yeah, I just, it's been really awesome. It's been really awesome. Well, you'll have to come and be on my podcast. that I'm doing with a guy named Chad Sanders about quitting things.

Oh, I love it. It's about what happens when you quit something that you thought was really really fundamental to who you were as a person. I got a PhD and then I walked away to raise my kids. Oh, my God. Myam. I will never say ma'am again.

I've always said ma'am. Why have you never corrected me before? Because you won the Emmy. I didn't want to say anything. No, no. I'd love to come on and talk to you about all the things that I quit. They quit. That would be great. I really, really have always loved your brain.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Well, because you do. You're like, for real, you have like real degrees and shit. Like, you don't need this. You don't need.

You don't need Hollywood. You don't know what I need. You don't need this. But see, in my, but that's what my, my brain's like, God, if I was, if I had a PhD, I would just be charging $700 an hour and tell people what to do. Thank you so much. Really, really a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you.

She is one of the only attractive people who I think I believe was a nerd. Like when she started talking about going to Brown and like, you know, like. What makes you believe that she was a nerd? Just the way that she was just talking because it was kind of like it was when Rain Wilson was on and he was like, Charlie's their own, you weren't a nerd. Like no one believes that. Jennifer Aniston, you were not a nerd. You were not an outsider.

No, but there was something about she's got a very, very. quirky brain. She has a really cool lens. She's got a very funny, she's got a very persistent sense of humor for someone who's not a stand-up by train. You know what I mean? Like she's got a lot of cool expressions. Like I just like

I just like how her brain works. And I'm kind of feeling like I get that that's, she was academic-y, you know, she was schooly and that she seems very focused on whatever it is that she's kind of like locked into, you know? Yeah. So I kind of bought it that she was, you know,

a cerebral type, which is not to say that pretty people can't be. I'm just saying that like, when you see someone like that who's like, I was such a nerd, like, you know. You were like, no, you weren't. Like, did people push you to the floor? Just because you existed. What was Rain's definition?

Rain was like, if you don't get beat up every day. Just for existing. Like, people literally taking your lunch money. Like, that's a thing. I thought that her description of what, you know, kind of raising that baseline is what certain people's chemistry, quote, needs. If I told you, you were, let's say, about to get pregnant, you need to

take folic acid, you'd be like, I'd take folic acid. But when it comes to mental health, right, we do. We have this totally separate distinction. And all of a sudden, everyone becomes, you know, a naturopathic, ethical purist who doesn't want big pharma interfering with their life. It's true. And I don't want a prozac nation. That is not my goal. But if you, you are a person who is experiencing a level of anxiety, depression, panic that is interfering, but properly, objectively, interfering. I'm going to pause you there because that's... If people don't want to be around you, please take medicine.

Sorry. Or find better people. But this is the problem when you say, is it interfering? because usually it's a slow build. It's the frog in water scenario that's slowly getting heated up and we don't realize it. And we sort of live- Jonathan, I bring this up because I'd like you to go on medication. Look, I will be honest.

I have considered, at times in my life, should I be on medication? Shocking. And I'm like, what is, and I ask myself, what is a reasonable amount of anxiety to have? How anxious should I feel? am I feeling an appropriate amount of anxiety? Am I not? Like, where am I in that graph that she articulated?

Like, where am I? Am I below the line or am I above the line? And how often am I... You're below the line. Maybe it's a new internet poll. Is Jonathan above or below the line? People don't know me well enough. They don't know.

I hide it. Well, and I, I mean, we're making light of this, but legitimately, like, you know, part of me feels like in a sci-fi universe, you know, there'll be like a chip in us, which I don't want, But part of me is like, gosh, what if there was a way for us to know, like, a little bit of this could transform your existence, right? It's not the chip in us, but I know that the technology is possible that we, with regular, semi-regular check-ins, we could evaluate our overall emotional or psychological stress.

The company that you co-founded is literally, that is the future, right? in terms of saying, are there patterns that we can pick up even in people's speech? That's right. And the answer is yes. That's why I know it's possible. Right, right, because artificial intelligence is a thing. But it's almost like you can only decide to change, you know, or shift when you decide it. But also it's often the people all around you that know that I'm not talking about you, although a little bit.

But no. But like, yeah, sorry. It makes me feel frustrated because I know so many people who win. They wait until it is so bad that they start isolating and alienating people and feeling hopeless. Hopeless. So there was this, you know, large notion of the quantified self, sort of a movement of quantified selfers. And it started with, you know, fitbits and it started with tracking our steps because we were like, oh, we had no idea how much exercise we're getting in our time. I couldn't figure out why I was so lazy and didn't lose weight.

Oh, it's because I don't move. So we started tracking our steps. Then we got smart watches. Then we got aura rings, which I have. Then we got whoop straps, which they gave us a whoop strap. And so we started to understand, oh, if I get better data on my sleep. Right. If I get better data on how much I move.

Or recovery, this big, you know, like, what's my recovery from, yeah. It tracks our heart rate and then it's our HRV. And then we start. Like HRV. Heart rate variability. So all these metrics that we start to gather and we're like, oh, if I get more information, I start to see a larger picture of my health and well-being. We don't have any of that for our emotional well-being.

Right. And that's where if we could get objective... I could put everyone on medication, then they wouldn't bother me anymore. Well, we would be able to... I'm kidding. I'm kidding. We know you're kidding. But we would be able to say before someone starts to isolate the way they are, hold on something is going on with this person.

Or we could say, hey, Maim, you're like a stress level, which you, you know, for value, reason might be sort of peaking and staying there at a level that could be harmful for you. Also, you know, where do we take this? We take this to the point of people becoming so hopeless and desperate that they start thinking about suicide or not existing. And, you know, I also, I wonder if that's, you know, a place that we can start tapping into also to try and get people help, you know, before it literally is too late. And it's something that when we, you know, talked with specialists in suicide prevention, things like that, it's one of the things they talk about. We need to find out before it becomes critical what people need.

And that shouldn't be true only if we're talking about suicide, God forbid. You know, it should be like that with our mental health. It gets me very fired up. It makes me want the government to do something. It can't be only about suicide. It has to be about us living in a way that is healthy and allowing us to thrive, not just sort of survive. Survive and keeping our heads about water and waking up feeling like there's battery acid. Better acid in our face. The last thing, let's end on something a little bit more fun.

As mentioned, this is our first episode back together in the new year. You went off and did your own thing for a little bit. Someone else sat in my chair, which is really, we have to discuss that. And we'll take our own time off camera to unpack that. Do you have any moments of revelation for us? anything that you've been working on in the new year.

Any insight that you've had? Moments of peace and calm. I am realizes something. Since this is our first episode, Together Back. Back together. Together again. Still. Maybe always.

I will say that there's something, there's a real ease to being alone. You know, just like sitting here and like I had to do some ads, you know, alone. and, you know, when you're alone, you don't have to think about anybody else. You don't have to worry, you know, are they going to do their lines right? And, you know, do they have different pacing than you and do stuff whenever you want? You know, I didn't have to worry about your schedule when I did that. Someone on our team may have even commented that I seem to be much more relaxed than in a better mood. I don't know.

And. Team member, I'd like to know who you are. And then what I also. realized is that there are certain things you can't do alone. It's harder to make jokes by yourself. It's harder to be interrupted by people who can't leave a tender moment alone. It is hard to make jokes when you're by yourself. It is hard to have your reality reflected back to you when you're by yourself.

It's hard to have someone keep you honest because we often can't keep ourselves honest. There are certain things that happen in partnership that just don't happen alone. And it was also interesting to reflect on because, you know, I'm a person, who's kind of had a boyfriend, for example, from the time I'm like 16, you know, really kind of pretty much straight through to like being married and then I've been divorced. And so like, I've had a lot of time to be someone's partner, someone's helper, someone's mom, you know, and being divorced, I've, you know, gotten a lot of time by myself. So I've really gotten to have, you know, that, that inner play and really kind of play with that. But I think it really is

an interesting moment that that's a little bit, the struggle of interesting. introverts. You know, there are so many things I enjoy about being alone. There are so many things that are more convenient, easier, and also it can be lonely. You know, it can be lonely. So I'm very glad you're back. Now he makes a joke because it's too intimate. I'm glad I'm back making your life more difficult, but also reflecting your reality. So maybe that's a good thing. I don't know. I kind of heard a mixed bag, but I'm going to take it nonetheless. Make sure to go to Biolic breakdown for more information. We have more. merch. It's super exciting. We've been wearing it. Other people have been reporting that our sweatshirts are the most comfortable sweatshirts they've ever been in. Someone literally has said that and she keeps wearing it. And she sends me a picture when she wears it. If you aren't already to subscribe to the show, subscribe. Subscribe, like, leave comments. Help us keep doing what we're doing in 2022. I think that's it. Check out the Instagram page at Bialik Breakdown. Follow us. We hit 50,000 followers. That was really exciting. And there is some exclusive content that will be on there.

being released there. Yeah, we're doing a lot of new fun things in 2022. We're going to get even better breaking things down. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll see you next time. It's My Ambiolyx Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two.

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