Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Justine Bateman: Your Age is Being Weaponized

Episode Date: October 24, 2023

Justine Bateman (writer, director, producer, author) joins us to address society’s fears about aging especially when it comes to females, how she unpacks her irrational fears in order to get to the root problem, and concerns about the implementation of artificial intelligence into film and television projects. She breaks down the nuances of wearing makeup, differences between society’s views toward aging between men and women, and her foolproof method for combating fears rooted in our physical insecurities. Mayim breaks down choice feminism and Justine shares what our fears of being an outlier may be rooted in and why she thinks mainstream audiences are one step away from accepting generative A.I.  NOTE: This episode was recorded before the Israel-Hamas conflict. Our hope is that MBB can be a positive distraction from what's going on in the world. Justine Bateman's book, Face: One Square Foot of Skin: https://a.co/d/g6TTg70 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if you had stayed on your path? What if you had done the thing you wanted to do in that moment? What would have happened? What ceiling would have fallen in? And not asking rhetorically. Like, don't be ridiculous. You can be yourself enough that's going to happen to you. I'm not talking about that.

I'm saying, really, give those irrational fears their time. Write it out, say it out loud. And I find that in doing that, you expose it to the atmosphere and it starts to erode somehow. It's like, I swear to God, it's like magic. I guarantee you, absolutely 100%, you are going to get free of these things. There's something about just writing out or saying out loud those irrational fears. It somehow can't live in the same state after that just starts eroding. So let's say you're going to do the opposite.

You're like, okay, I'm not going to be afraid that none of these things are going to happen for me. I'm going to trust that things are going to work out. And frankly, as we get older, we should be even more trusting. because we have more evidence, more things to point to, say, oh, I thought that was going to be a disaster, but it worked out fine. It's really helpful to have some sort of spiritual something, whether you're going to, it can be God for you or the universe or the fucking son, whatever, to just go, I'm going to be taking care. It's going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. I don't have to be living in this fear that these things aren't going to happen for me ever.

or just trusting that things work out. Things work out. Look at some parts of your life where moments in your life where you thought that was going to be a disaster and maybe it was a disaster, but then something came out instead. Or that thing you thought, that disaster you thought would happen never happened at all. And you spent three months prior to that,

just like giving yourself an answer. It's my and biolics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing nor do. So now she's going to break down. So break down. She's going to break it down.

Hi, I'm I. I'm Bialik, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down, so you don't have to. Today, we're going to be breaking down Justine Bateman and Face. Justine Bateman is a writer, a director, a producer, and a very accomplished author. And her best-selling first book, Fame, was an incredible exploration about kind of society's need for an understanding of really what fame means to us and what it means to

the people it happens to. And her second book, also a bestseller, was published just a few years ago. And we're going to talk all about it. Jonathan's not here. And he's very disappointed that I'm flying solo for this one. But it's really such a pleasure. We've spoken before, but a pleasure to interact in person. Welcome, Justine Bateman to the breakdown. Make it down. Hi. Hi. I didn't wear makeup today.

And I woke up and often I don't wear makeup to podcasts. But lately I've been trying to make more of an effort. And I thought, you know, of all days, I'm not going to wear makeup today. And I think Valerie, I think we both. We both decided to go naked face today. And I have lipstick in my pocket because I was like, maybe I just need a little something. but I think that's actually a really cool place to start, if you don't mind. Your premise, your existence as a writer in particular of Face, which also has an awesome cover.

The notion is not that women should not adorn themselves. That's not what the prescription of the book is about. Can you describe why this book? Sure. Well, the genus of it was while it was writing fame, which you generously spoke to me about. You were one of the people I interviewed for that book. I did a Google search of my name and the autocomplete was looks old. So I'm 57 now and I was early 40s something.

So my face really hadn't started changing yet. And I was just like, wait, what? So, like an idiot, I clicked on that. And it was this, you know, anyway, suffice to say, it was a really bad rabbit hole. And it really affect, I couldn't, because I couldn't understand what they were talking about. Because I, you know, it sounded arrogant, but I couldn't see what they meant. Even the photos they had as evidence. I was like, I think I look fine there.

I mean, I just didn't get what they meant. But there were so many of them and so few of me. that I made them right and me wrong, which was really, really a bad mistake because that stuck with me for a really long time. And whenever something kind of throws me off track, I have to journal about it and get at the root fear for me. What's the irrational fear behind that?

And so I had to do that with that issue. And then once I was on the other side of it, I went, wow, let's look at this topic, generally speaking, like in our society. Like all these, you know, And society isn't something outside of us. It's all of us together and sort of all, everything we've sort of agreed upon, right? Saying hello at the beginning of the conversation and goodbye at the end.

You know, stuff like that. Stopping at red lights. I mean, there's nothing physically keeping us from, you know, and laws help to hedge all that in. So I was like, what is it about in society where we've agreed that a woman's face is broken and has to be fixed? I was like, where's that? Where'd that come from? What irrational fear is that handling?

And anyway, so the book goes into, I interviewed, you know, people for that too. And so it's based on my experiences in those of like 20 people I spoke to. Kind of some of the root reasons, like some of the places where it would be, where the idea would be birthed in. Because it's not, you're not born thinking that. And so it's just about why would one decide that I'm, I am unacceptable in any way. Your body, your thoughts, your face, whatever, right?

And getting at the root fear that in adopting that belief, what root fear are you calming, right? So no, makeup to me doesn't fall. I mean, unless it's like, oh my God, I must have this armor, otherwise I won't be accepted. But makeup as an expression of your personality or your close. or your hair style or your hair color, your hair cut, or to me, that's like, go. Like, you know, please make, you know, it's great to have some, who, how, to see how someone

feels about life or, or who, what their personalities or whatever on the outside like that. It's, it's great to see that display. But I'm talking about the, um, the, the criticism of, you know, yeah, your face. the introduction, you know, to this book, you know, really starts in a, in a startling place in that you talk about, you know, some of your favorite images of women were women who had, I mean, we used to call it character, you know, they had character in their face. And you also mention a bit about like a European sensibility. And, you know, the notion that, I mean, also our perception of beauty and especially of women's

beauty in the West, you know, and in this part of the West in the United States, is very different than other Western cultures. So, you know, I remember when I was a kid, you know, when I first went to Europe, like, women didn't shave their underarms or their legs. And it wasn't like a big deal. It was not like a thing. And when you would watch foreign films, you would often see that. And that has now completely shifted. And, you know, there's really nowhere left in, in Europe, I think, where that happens. But I wonder if you could talk a little. little bit about, you know, the cynic in me, meaning the person that doesn't feel ready to step into what I believe you so beautifully illustrate, like the fear in me is like, well, that's easy

for you to say, right? Or I think that's what a lot of people might say. And I don't mean you specifically, but like, that's something for other people to think. Like, I can't get there. Like, when you mention, you know, having wrinkles on your cleavage. Yeah. Like, when that happened to me like I wanted to crawl under a rock. I wanted to crawl under a rock. Like it was it was so significant for me in a negative way. So I'm curious do you have only laughing because I like I said in the book like it looks really cool. Okay. So I don't understand. So tell me where do you think this comes from? Like were your parents super cool and they were like this? Well I don't know. They must have been cool. No. No. They were not cool.

No. No. But you and your brother all. also were both very, like, talented, creative, artistic, intelligent people. Who knows where the giftings of God comes from? Well, okay, fine. Tell me, did this, so this didn't come from like any family messaging. No, there was no family messaging. But also like, okay, I was born in 1966. Mm-hmm. So I'm a kid in the 70s. I'm a teenager in the 80s. Mm-hmm.

Like plastic surgery, like, it wasn't like a, right. Maybe you'd heard of, maybe we'd heard of like one person who got plastic surgery when they're like old. And it was something like, you know. You're obviously not Jewish. Every 16 year old girl would get a nose job where I come from. Oh, well, sure. I mean, I had, you know, yeah. And they didn't do them well. Now they do them so great, you can't tell. I had friends who, yeah, that was sort, that seemed like a little bit of a write of passage. Yeah. Yeah.

Because, yeah, when I went to school in Willen Hills, like at a lot of, a lot of, you know, Jewish friends. We congregate. In fact, you know, live in Tarzan and Sino and stuff. Uh-huh. In fact, when I hear what percentage of the nation is Jewish, I'm like, that's not right. Because I went to school with so many. For 2% of the U.S. population, to me is like, it's like 40%, right? Because, I mean, that's, that was the, when I was in a spreading like wildfire.

Junior high and high school. That's what the mix was. Anyway, so yeah, you would have that, but not like, all to say, I didn't grow up. It wasn't my parents necessarily, like, I don't think any of us, unless you had a parent who was obsessed or something, but I don't think any of us really grew up with any of that. And you also didn't grow up looking at yourself, unless you had a mirror in your face in your room all the time. You didn't have the internet looking at yourself. have, nobody had a, you know, camera in their pocket on the phone. So is that the difference? Is it an era difference? Because there are women your age. Not necessarily. Because there are women your age, right, who didn't dig the cleavage wrinkle. You're right. It doesn't cover the

whole thing, but I think it's part of it. Got it. I think it's part of it. I think it's harder to have that kind of attitude if you grew up just surrounded with, like now, like little kids now. I mean, I don't know. Do they see any older faces ever? I don't know. I mean, my kids tell me I'm one of the only people they know who doesn't dye my hair, like in terms of adults they know. But why would you?

Because I have it, I mean, I have gray and many people. Okay, but so this is the thing, though. It's kind of like when people say, like, well, you don't need to shave. Your leg hair is not that, you know, like, it's not about that. It's about a concept of why you choose not to. But, no, I mean, I can't tell you how many times people, People have said, like, we're going to put highlights in. We're going to put low lights in.

We just need to create a little depth. It'll just brighten your face. It'll frame your face and we'll cover up all the grays. But this is the culture, though, right? This is our culture now. It's true. I don't know what it is. I guess I just, like when I was acting and I would hear that, you know, I got that note once on a pilot I was doing,

we want to put highlights in your hair. And I just took that as a, why? Why are you giving this note? I mean, no, no, no, really, like, what? That's a solution that's going to solve what problem. Like, tell us what your problem is. And then because otherwise, I knew from doing enough acting jobs, like, if I do that, it's, you may still have your problem.

Because you're coming up with a solution. Anyway, I always see it as something like that. That's a really interesting point because, you know, as one goes through face, as you do, As you mentioned, it's There was a series of conversations you had And then these are, I mean, they're short stories Very short. They're very short. So they're moments, if you will.

Yeah, tear chips. They're healthy moments. And each one is a different kind of flavor Of either someone else's gaze, someone else's judgment, someone else is trying to fix or a woman examining, you know, the basis for that, right? Right. It looks at like, like for any one person they could ask themselves, like, wow, where did I get the idea that my face is broken?

Or that if it's a man or another woman that other people's faces are broken and have to be fixed. Where did I even, you not born with that? Where did it even, where was even that seed? And like I'll give you an example. And I'm not advocating and get rid of books. I'm not like that. But I'm just saying it's good to. And the story I'm going to say is there's one about a young mother who takes her twins

to story time. And they have, there's usually a younger woman that's reading these stories as fairy tales. And then one day there's an older woman doing it, you know, sitting in doing the reading. and her kid starts, you know, lip trembling and all this and then points at this older woman who's reading and says, the witch. And all the rest of the kids start crying too. And then the mother's mortified,

and she realizes in a flash that she thought she was like enriching her kids by taking into this cultural thing every week. But oh my God, what she's done is planted in her kids. It's not her fault. It's just all. Almost all the villains in fairy tales are old women. Yeah.

So for someone, and again, I'm not advocating and get rid of the fairy tales, nothing like that. But when one can understand that, oh, that is where I picked it up, then it kind of blows it open and you can say, oh, well, well, that's silly. You know, but until somebody I've found, until I can open where I picked something up or kind of what my irrational fear is or whatever, until I open that by saying it out loud or writing it out, I can't, I can't rationally, I can't get rid of it with my rationality.

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So the stories are like, where did your thing come from? Maybe it's that. Maybe it's this. Maybe it's because you were rejected by a younger guy and then you started looking at yourself differently. Whatever it is, you know, maybe the – or like you said, some of it is just like looking at women. Like where are they? You know, where are they at? Like an older woman who's interviewing for a job keeps putting herself down and keeps saying, I know I look old, I know I look old.

And then the woman who's interviewing her having to say, why do you keep doing that? Like, I'm ready to hire you, but you keep insisting that, you know. And when she leaves, like, she's not entirely sure she's going to, you know, she gets the job, she's not entirely sure she's even going to stay because she can't,

she's using it as a way to get in her own way. She's using it as a, she's trying to make sure things don't happen in her life. And some women use it like that. Well, and I was just going to say, I see, you know, that age really is weaponized. I mean, especially against women. And as you kind of point out, specifically against women, it's that sort of threat, you know, that there will come a point when your face will betray you, right? Your existence then kind of comes into question in this way. But that's the thinking.

Because, and I'm just interjecting because I want you to finish that line. of thought because who's doing that to you? Because a lot of times when I've done the interviews and stuff on this book and they go, well, the, you know, journalists say, well, there's a lot of pressure on women. And I said, well, what exactly? Oh, well, you know, cosmetic companies. I go, well, in what way? Well, the ads, you know, and then they say that you need to change and the stuff. And I go, well, it's an ad. They're doing their job of marketing and they're pricking at maybe one of your fears that they can be the solution to. I said, but. And always I'm getting at, There is nobody standing over you, threatening your life, telling you you got to feel like shit about your face or else.

So that's when the inner work. That's what I was going to. One has to write out for themselves. Correct. Why am, and I don't mean this rhetorically. Yeah. But truly write out the answer. Why am I holding on to this idea?

How is it serving me? I'm going to give you the most basic answer that I think a lot of women would say. And men as well, because men are also... Sure, especially in the gay community. Correct. And I also... Based on my interviews. I'm not just going to speak about the gay community because we're the authorities.

A lot of the guys that I spoke to are like... Yeah. And I want to be really careful because, and I think, you know, you of all people understand the value of this. Like, this is a conversation that in many cases is about women. And that's okay. Yeah, yeah. Of course.

Yeah. Well, I mean, yes. I mean, you know it's okay because you wrote the book. But I just need to like say a disclaimer that like there are spaces, kind of like when we talk about eating disorders, when we talk about sexual assault, there are places for all of those conversations. But this conversation, I'm going to keep it. Yeah. Let's do it. Great.

Okay. I'm into that. So I'm 10 years younger than you. And also, you know, for part of my adult acting life, it was like the oldest person on my set. You know, at the Big Bang Theory. It was like me, Jim Parsons and Johnny Galecki were like the oldest and everybody else was like they felt like kids. So what I know and just from working with in particular a lot of young actresses, like you are encouraged to start earlier and earlier with work on your face. I know.

So that it's less drastic. It's less significant. And what I hear women in their 20s say is like if you start young, quote, no one will notice. meaning you'll just perpetually stay in some version of, you know, youth that you want to hold on to. I've never had work done. I'm going to go ahead and tell you. I tweez the bottom edge of my eyebrows, which there's actually a story that I wanted to talk to you about because while it's not plastic surgery, it rocked my brain and is really messed up everything about me. I think in terms of how I view my face. Anyway, you'll fix that in a second. But what a lot of.

lot of women say is that they feel better when they look a certain way. And the way that they get to that place is with filler. I don't know. I've never had it. So what I say, and I think you say it much better, but I'll give you my amateur feminist perspective. I have this thought, and I've had this since I was like 14 years old when I refused to shave. and everyone thought I was nuts. And maybe I was, but besides the point. I think that we have been conditioned to have a picture of what we think looking good is. And that would include never aging, never changing, and that the notion of like, well, I feel better, like my expression of feminism is, right? And to me, like, I believe in choice feminism. I understand academically what it is. But to me, you only think you

look better when you alter yourself because of like what we've been told is the only way to look. Am I close? Like you've got a fancier degree in this department. This is, well, I have a computer science degree, so I don't know. No, but you do like, but you are a person though who who knows more about like. But I have explored. Exactly. Media and fame and like this is like you are in it. Okay. The thing that, one thing that really stood out that you just said was if I start this. I feel like I'm with like Dr. Bateman here.

She's going to fix everything. But not about you particularly, like to talk about here. As you said that when these women start this work younger, it's less noticeable. It'll, I forget what you said exactly. Yeah, like if you'd start. It would be less noticeable as you're going on. Right. You know what's going to be less noticeable?

What? Them. Them themselves. Same word. when you start conforming to some really narrow idea, and this is very narrow, I mean, the more surgery you do, the more you look like this, I could say Kardashian, I could say, I mean, it's not- There's levels, but, you know. But there's this look. There's this particular hair color. There's this particular look on the

face. There's this particular size and firmness of the breast. I mean, it's like everybody's going to the same doctor, but they're probably not. But there's this look. So let's go back to herd mentality or not herd mentality, but like tribal level, right? You want to be included in the tribe. Yeah. Because you're not included in the tribe. You're not vulnerable. You're vulnerable to danger, physical danger. You're not going to get a cut of the kill that comes in. Right. You're not going to be protected, blah. So I think that's what drives, basically we're talking about with the face. And I'm jumping a little bit here. Talking about people pleasing. Yeah. We're talking about inclusion in the tribe. We're talking about the irrational fear that you are not going to be included.

You're not going to have a cut of the hunt. You won't get the guy, whatever it is. You're not going to, You're not going to have shell, but on a really core level. Because your system, I don't have to tell you, you know, your whole system's main focus is to keep you alive. That's it. Survival. That's it. Yep.

Now, part of that is. And that doesn't change just because we're in 2020, whatever. No. Yeah. Nothing's going to change that. Right. That's what keeps us alive. We're just homo sapiens.

I mean, all the ones that didn't abide by that are dead. Right. I mean, that didn't procreate, right? years ago. I'm barely here, but yes. But you know what I mean? They didn't have a lineage after them because they probably threw themselves with no fear off a cliff before they were able to have a baby or something, right? So we are products of people who were, you know, cautious enough to have survived, right? Right. Okay, so people pleasing, getting along, making sure you're part of the herd, not an outlier. We've seen enough nature videos to see what happens to the outliers, right? The

picked off and that's the predators get them. So I think part of wanting to conform, it's just, it's, you know, we learned this, we don't learn it so much when we're real little, well, we sure learn it in junior high school. You know what I mean? This conformity, got to wear, you know, girls in tears, like, I need to wear that brand jeans. If I don't, I'm out. So. That's what I told my parents. Me too. It's like, dinners and Loveitz and Chimenda fare. And I can't not wear, you know. Can someone stop being a public teacher in this house? That's what I would screw to my parents.

Anyway, all to say, a lot of it is fear of expressing yourself, being yourself. Being different. Fear that that is, and being different nowadays is just being you, just normal you, without doing any of that stuff. Like, and I get it because a terror comes up in people sometimes to varying, degrees of like, oh, now I'm going to be this irrational fear. Now I'm going to be an outlier. Now I'm going to be left out of the, out of the. And I tell you so much of my life or so many times in my life, I've gotten to those points. Oh, no. If I, if I say this or wear what I really

want to wear or do what I really want to do and everything, I will be excluded. I will be excluded. I will be excluded. And I got to tell you, it just doesn't fucking work that way. It doesn't. It doesn't work that way. And when you try it, like my film Violet is about, you know, the negative thoughts in your head, I call it the voice in the film. And that film is about, kind of gives the map to the bridge between, you know, over the chasm between a life that's based in fear-based decisions and a life that's based in instinct-based decisions. And a lot of those fear-based decisions I have found are because of, oh no, I'll be left out. I won't be included. I won't be part of. I'll be, I mean, me, basically everything I do, I'm, I'm out, I am not doing, I am not doing

what you're supposed to be doing. I'm not doing what most people are supposed to be doing. It's working up fine. I'm not dead. I'm not excluded. I'm still being provided for. I'm still, I can still go down the grocery store and get food. You know what I mean? But if you deal with that irrational fear of like, I won't be provided for and I won't be protected and then I'll die. Because your system is trying to protect you from dying. So for some people, not getting the plastic surgery, their system is irrationally connecting that with death. You see what I mean? Yeah. That's how deep that fear is. That's how deep, not being included, that goes, like the basic core function of our system. I think if one is able to accept that that,

what's going on and to see that, okay, well, that might have been too in tribal times, and I know that's still in my system as a human being. But rationally, I do have a roof over my head and I can go down to the grocery store and get something to eat. For most people, this is absolutely the truth. So I'm not going to die if I don't get plastic. You know, if you deal with what the irrational fear is at the root of it, then you're like, oh, I can have my face look however I want, and none of that's ever going to happen. what I also wanted to clarify because you're not just speaking for you, Justine Bateman, because I think a lot of people might be like, well, that's not a great example.

Like, you were famous and you're skinny and you're like, whatever people are going to fill in. You're talking about for humans in general. I believe. This is not just like, I'm okay. It's like, no, I believe that. What I just said, like you get to the core irrational fear of what's driving. Right. You know what it feels like when you are going off track.

You're like, oh, I didn't. It was totally not myself. It's happening right now. You say I wasn't myself at dinner or why did I say that or why did they eat all that food? Or why did I? Yes. You know, all of that, I find what I do that I've found to be 100% effective. You write out what was going on right there.

What if you had stayed on your path? What if you had done the thing you wanted to do in that moment? What would have happened? What ceiling would have fallen in? Mm-hmm. And not asking you. rhetorically, like, don't be ridiculous. You can act be yourself and nothing's going to happen to you. I'm not talking about that. I'm saying, really, give those irrational fears their time,

write it out, say it out loud. And I find that in doing that, you expose it to the atmosphere and it starts to erode somehow. It's like, I swear to God, it's like magic. Can you tell me about, can you tell me about your mom and your dad? Specifically, I want to know about their faces. Like, did they age gracefully? Well, my mother. mother was a flight attendant. We traveled a lot. So when I would go to Malta to see relatives or, you know, be anywhere, Italy, whatever, we got to travel a lot, Japan, whatever. Lots of older faces. In fact, when I was a kid, lots of older faces when I was a kid too in America. Right. You know, but traveling, it's just maybe because in other cultures you see more older people.

Right. It's true. They're not shut up in the back room at the, you know, the American houses, but, yeah, I don't really haven't, I haven't answered to your first question, but, well, because you, maybe you can talk more generally because you do talk about the difference between men aging and women aging. And I guess that's what I was curious about too. So maybe you can speak to it. Can you speak to that a little bit in terms of an, you know, it's like we all say it, right? Like, oh, men, when they get gray, they get distinguished and women dye their hair. Or men can have a dad bod, and it's like kind of a thing, but women, if you don't have a very specific body type, like you're outside the norm, or when men get wrinkles, right?

Or when they lose their hair, it's like, oh, it's distinguished. It's like it's character. But for women, it's like a whole other conversation. I've got a theory on that. So let's go back to the tribal example, right? So in the tribe, you've got the children. You've got the women who are fertile. You've got the older women.

you've got the older men. Now, the children, whatever, they'll become something. So they're of value. The men who are hunters and bringing everything, they're of value. Right. The women who are fertile. They are of value. Everyone else, we just, it's like wisdom.

All right. Maybe you have a tribe that respects that kind of wisdom, which unfortunately in America, we don't have this tribe. No, I'm thinking of others. Which is too bad. Yeah. But the older. guy in that

in on a tribal level but especially in a in a capitalistic culture which which we have and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that I'm just saying because it's when a man the older a man because the this is a this is too bad that this pressure is so much on men but to make it you gotta make a lot of money you have to have a good

you have to have a title you have to have something you know you know walk around you say you're a plumber which I think is really respectable. And frankly, after Genervéi takes over everything, they're going to be one of the few people that actually still have a job. Blue-collar people are going to be like, really? Yeah, people who clean hotel. Really, everybody's going to be like, can I have that job?

I saw a triangle of sadness. I know what happens when that ship gets wrecked. So, but in our culture, men have established themselves in business or making a lot of money. And as they get older, they're doing better. at their business or making more money. They're seen as a provider. They're seen as somebody who's going to, like, why do we keep wanting men? And I'm just so you know about me, like I'm not a tear down the patriarchy person at all.

I don't give a fuck about sexism. I mean, I'm just like, when somebody's sexist, I just go, oh man, you just show me your entire hand at the poker table. I know that you are so insecure that my mere presence is just, and am I ever negotiating against this person for something like, you just showed me everything, you just showed me your underbelly. So that's just me personally.

So you do give a fuck, but you don't give a fuck in terms of like, I don't care. I just want to clarify that. I just know, I, no, no, no, for, for, for, yeah, it's clear to me what's, I, every time I say guy is sexist, it just, you know, he's just told me,

he's just told me how, yes, of course. Yeah. He's just told me how very insecure he is. Got it. And also, we see, if he's in my way professionally, like, yeah, I was like, thanks. I like what you just did with your hand.

I like go around. It's like, oh, it's clear you're unavailable because you're racked with, I mean, please see a therapist. Right. I'm going to go to the next person. So, yeah, I'm obviously not going to work with you because you have too much to work on still. Okay. There are certain roles that we want to have filled in our society, in our play, let's say, right? Certain characters, we want certain actors to play certain characters.

in our play of life. Yeah. Okay. Authoritative guy is one of them. Young new guy who has lots of promise. That's one of them. I think that's why you see a lot of perhaps young male directors, perhaps it's not so much now as it used to be,

but perhaps more fostered because, like, oh, he's filling that role. Young ingenue, she's filling that role. Yes. And I don't mean to put this in movie terms, but the mother type who's going to give you, or grandmother type or whatever, who's going to give you comfort. Like, what do you need in your life and who's going to play those parts? Authoritative woman who knows what she's doing. It's not, do you see what I'm saying?

Do you look at the list of characters in the play? That role doesn't really exist. in our culture. So when somebody's being that way, I think it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, confusing to people. It's confusing to people because it doesn't fit in these, in these sort of prescribed societal roles that, that they feel like, oh, no, to get that kind of thing, I've got to have an older guy fill that part. And so back to your, your question about, is it, you know, why do they make it okay for guys to age? Because the older, guy looks up to a certain point. He can't be decrepit, right?

Enhances their value in that role because it suggests they have even more wisdom and guidance and protection of you and money for you, et cetera, et cetera, which is irrational. Okay, but I'm going to add on top of that. And this, this, I don't know how old this trope is, but I also know that men of that age and position are also lauded for having young mistresses or young wives, meaning the fertility, right, the virility, it somehow then becomes part of their worth, right? Like, ooh, I mean, I hate to use the language that people, you know, but like he got her, right? Or he could still get that. Okay.

So talk about that. What you're saying right there, that's it. Yeah. What are his, it is further, it's more evidence that he's the guy. Right. That he's the guy that can play that part. Not because he's a younger woman so much, but he can get the money. Right.

He can get these women who could have anything. Right. He, he and he can get what you need to. So it's more evidence that... You know what I can get? An ultrasound for ovarian cysts. Because when I think about the things that... And I also, I'm one of those like I was a very early menopauser, just an overachiever.

And so, you know, there's been a lot of thought, you know, that I've been given to this. Why is it menopause instead of mena end? How about womenopause? But why is it... You're not pausing anything. It's done. You know what I mean? It's not a pause button. We can just call it the end of my life.

Okay. Sorry. No, but when I think about, you know, I mean, there wasn't, you know, I've been acting since I was, well, you know, I started acting professionally when I was 11, right? And then, you know, I never looked like leading girl. I started acting in the late 80s. You can do the math. Like, All-American was still a thing. And I did not look all-American.

I still don't. I've been waiting for it to come around. But, you know, there's this notion of like, you're at an age where, like, am I going to be the ingenue? And then I left the industry and we're both ruins. You know, and I was at UCLA for 12 years. I was only there for four. That's amazing. I did my undergrad and then my doctorate.

It's a long haul. And, you know, when people ask, like, why, one of the most common things that people ask me, why did you leave acting? And it's like now I can be like because of this. Like I need to hold up both of your books and be like, this is why. Because I had I had had the experience of literally being of value for what I provide. And even though I wasn't that like leading girl or leading teen, you know, I was holding a show, right, that was named after me. Like I had a whole life of what can I give you?

What do I look like? and what, you know, what value is that? And I had 12 years of wearing pajamas to school every day. I dyed my hair, whatever color I always wanted to. I pierced my eyebrow because, like, I always wanted to like, you know, back then, piercings were a thing. And I lived, you know, off of the grid of observation that way. And when I think about what life was like in the late 90s and, you know, of course there were

girls who, you know, were starting to get worked out. Of course people, you know, were right. But false lashes. weren't a thing. So like, you know, that wasn't an issue. But, you know, the reason that some of us remove ourselves, it's all of this. And I'm like so grateful that you can articulate it so well because it's very satisfying, you know, it's very satisfying personally, but I think for a lot of people listening to hear it spoken about in a way that doesn't feel defensive and it doesn't feel like an attack on a system. It feels very, I don't want to say, like you just,

I think you're right. Well, here's, here's, here's, my, my goal in my life is to get. What's your goal in your life? I'll tell you. My overall goal is to be, I want to eliminate all of my buttons, all of them. So I can be in any situation whatsoever. Someone can say anything to me. come at me in any way.

And it's just like, wah, wah, want, want. It's like the parents in the... How close are you? Are we like, are we there? I'm super close. You have children? Yeah, two teenagers. Because they give you more buttons. Oh, well, that...

I don't even want to. That is, uh, yeah, additional. Do you have male humans or female humans? Uh, I have a boy and a girl. Okay. Oh, you got, you get both lessons. But every time, I know what my, I know what it feels. feels like to be me, like I know what my track feels like. To be on track, I know what that feels like. So anytime I feel like I'm going off track, like...

What's the feeling? Like, where do you feel? Well, anybody could... Okay, like, let's give you an example, like, oh, you went out to... You put on a pair of pants and you walked out the... And you knew, as soon as you put them on, you didn't want to wear them. I was... I tried on pants today, and I felt this. Didn't want to wear them. But you kept them on and you wore them all day. Yeah. And your day was like... All day, you're kind of, it's kind of in the back of your head. Yeah.

Right? And you got to come home and you're like, okay, all day you were off track. You just want to take your pants off. All day you're off track. Right. So it's, I find it's good to ask myself then. Why did I not change them? There's some reason.

It's not a rhetorical question. Like, I really want to get at. I know women who are three pairs of spanks. Like, to go to an event. Okay. That's not comfortable. They're not comfortable. All right, let me give a different.

No, but I'm agreeing with you. But I'm not even talking about. You can't eat four days before a red carpet. No, I don't mean like that. I mean just like, you just wore a sweater. Okay, got it. That you don't really like. You're thinking smaller.

But you wore it anyway. Right. Or someone invited you to go someplace. And you said yes when you wanted to say no. You don't know that yet. All you know is you're there. You hate being there. You resent your friend and you're off track.

And the next day. My whole life. But the next day then, to ask yourself, let's back it up. I felt myself until the moment I said yes. Right. Why did I say yes? Now, there's some reason. What were you afraid of?

I was going to say, if you, let's, let's picture yourself doing the opposite. Which is like, Violet, there's a lot of that. Picture yourself doing the opposite. If you did the opposite, what do you imagine would have happened? That's the fear you were trying to make sure it didn't happen. It's like, oh, well, I'm sure they would reject me and never invite me again. All right. Now.

So, those people get mad. Well, right now, at that juncture, that's an irrational fear. It's not a proven fear. Right. Right. So sometimes you have got to go ahead and say no next time and then wait and see if what you thought was going to happen happens. But that, what you just described, that's the place where I think most of us are not given, we don't know those tools for how to manage what that feels like. That's it just gave it to you.

Right. In fact, in the film, in the book, in the book. in the book, fame, but no, one has to do the work. In the book, fame, I do go into more details as to how I process, like, so the whole face thing, I go into, like, how I process that, and what my root fear was. It was nothing to do with the skin on my face.

Right. It was everything to do with what I... So, everybody can finish this sentence. I'm afraid if people think I look old, then therefore you think something's going to happen. It's got nothing to do with your face. I won't get a maid. I'll lose my job.

I won't get a job. people won't listen to me, whatever it is. That fear there, that completion of that sentence, existed in that person before their face started changing. Slow that down. If you have this fear, if your fear about what would happen if, right, you are perceived as old, if your fear is that you will lose status, you will not have the things you want, the people you want, the opportunities that you want, that fear already exists.

did. You had that fear at 18. Right. Or possibly younger. Younger. You had that fear. And all those that you just said is basically a fear of not being provided for. You're not going to be taken care of.

I think you're a therapist. It's very helpful. If somebody's going to do this work and I guarantee you, I guarantee anybody who wants to try this, I guarantee you, absolutely 100%, you are going to get free. of these things. I'm telling you... And think of all the money you will save to not put so much into that. There's something about just writing out or saying out loud those irrational fears. It somehow can't live in the same state after that. It just starts eroding. And when you're doing that, it's really helpful to... So let's say you're going to do the opposite. You're like,

okay, I'm not going to be afraid that none of these things are going to happen for me. I'm going to trust that things are going to work out. And frankly, as we get older, we should be even more trusting because we have more evidence, more things to point to, say, oh, I thought that was going to be a disaster, but it worked out fine. It's really helpful to have some sort of spiritual something, whether you're going to, it can be God for you or the universe or the fucking son, whatever, to just go, I'm going to be taking care. It's going to be okay. I'm going to be okay. I don't have to be living in this fear that these things aren't going to happen for me ever. Or just trusting that things work out. Things work out. Look at some parts of your life where

moments in your life where you thought that was going to be a disaster and maybe it was a disaster, but then something came out instead. Sure. Or that thing you thought, that disaster you thought would happen, never happened at all. And you spent three months prior to that, just like giving yourself an ulcer. I do want to bring up that like, there absolutely is this for many people who choose to be part of certain aspects of the industry and I don't think it's just actors there is a reality to this.

I mean, like it is suggested that we get work done. It is, it's become, you know, in many cases, I don't want to say enforced, but like that is the industry now. And, you know, when I, when I, When I was asked if I've ever tweezed my eyebrows, I was like, what? No. And, you know, just taking off that one little row, because I do have naturally, very specifically shaped eyebrows. So that's all me.

But just taking off like that one row, it was like, you know, I remember the makeup person said, look how that opened up your face. And I was like, people just say things. No, but the truth is, and I'm speaking visually and aesthetic. Or diarrhea comes out of people's mouths and out their asses. No, but I also, the truth is that when there is less shading around your eyes, you see more of your eyes, right? The truth is for those of us who have, you know, upper lids that are hooding, they can impede

your vision and they absolutely cover your eyes, right? So that's a thing for people who are on television. I'm sorry. What? Because, I know, I know, I know that's the way people get insurance companies to pay. for the... No, no, no. But what I'm saying is like I...

Well, my eyes are hooded. It doesn't get into my vision at all. You're not choosing to be on camera. So for me, in high... I'm on camera quite a bit. No, no, but what I'm saying is in high definition sitcom land, right? Like, we had a situation and it only happened in this last iteration of my life. I was on a sitcom for three years from the ages of, you know, do the math, whatever, 44 to, you know, 46.

And we, we, until we figured out, there was a persistent shadow. because I had skin in places that I had never had skin. And of course, my solution was not, I'm going to get eye surgery, but I absolutely Googled it because it kept being a thing of like the lighting person and the makeup person and what's this shadow and, you know, is it like what's going on? And also I wear glasses. So that's a whole thing. And so, you know, I was curious, right? I mean, like, I didn't do it and don't plan to. But I wonder what, you know, do you think just like if you have to get plastic surgery to conform in any way, that's not your industry? Like, would that be, I mean, that's one way to look at it?

As a filmmaker, it's not my industry. Right. I mean, I, I mean, unless I'm, I'm casting a role that is someone who's had plastic surgery. Right. I can't even use people who have had work. It's just, it's not the, it's not the direction of the work I'm doing as a, right? as a director. I want to get,

I want the audience to feel more emotionally engaged in it. And I think when you start doing uncanny valley to your face, it makes them, whether they're conscious of it or not, it makes them pull away a little bit. And then with all these TikTok filters and filters on film, I mean, people don't know, too. I mean, they're used to Photoshop now, but they don't understand that these filters are used on video too.

Yeah. So they're like, oh, seven such an actresses. is like 65 years old and she looks amazing. It's like, well, I mean, her whole video, Photoshop through the whole film, yeah, she's not playing somebody 20 years younger than her, but she wants to look five years younger than she is or whatever it is. I don't have any use for that as a director.

I don't want, because I think that makes people, I want them to be more engaged in the film emotionally, not pull back. And we unconsciously will, you know, and then we're going to have all this gender of AI Yeah, I wonder if we could shift a little bit to a little bit about AI. People are kind of, as viewers, we've kind of grown accustomed to non-real faces. And so when I...

Can you say more about that? So, sure, non-real faces are plastic surgery, the filters. Well, first we had, you know, with the Photoshop and then on stills. And then the filters, I don't know if you've seen like the latest TikTok filters. Oh, wow. There's one that'll make you look 20 years, 20 years, 30 years younger. Oh, yeah, it makes me look like my older son and freaks us both out. Or the ones that will, like, quote, beautify you. Yeah, that freaked me out too.

Okay. I'm a very handsome man, though. I like that. But you can wipe your, you can have an entire phone conversation or video conversation with some, you know, have your hand on your face and move it. There's nothing, it doesn't jump off your face when you're moving your hand over it. So just to show people like, you don't even know if you're talking to somebody who's going. one of these filters on. So people have grown accustomed to, you don't, it's, and then in film, like I said, people have grown accustomed to all the CGI, all in all the touching up on people's faces and all this. And I'm watching Yellowstone. Kevin Cosner looks amazing. I think that's just

because he's an angel. Maybe. And maybe, maybe they do a little something on his face. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. So now we're getting to generative AI and you're going to have, the audiences are, That's just one click away. You know, and people say, oh, you know, audiences aren't going to accept that kind of thing. It's like, maybe if you take an audience from the 1970s and you ask them to look at this stuff, they're going to reject it. But not this, I don't think this audience, so I think this audience, it just seemed like one step further. That's all.

Right. Not eight steps further, one step further. Right. My most disturbing cynical thought. And it's horrible. And it's, you know, I blame the culture, you know, that has seeped its way into. of my DNA, I think. Like, I keep thinking, I keep thinking, like, oh, but if you had my neck, you wouldn't

feel that way. Like, it makes me sad to say it. Like, you know, when I first heard that people inject their neck so that they don't have lines, I was in my 30s, and it was from a much younger woman who had started getting it done, like much younger than me, like almost could have been my kid. And I had never thought about the lines in my neck ever. and from that day on, I can't, like, that's all I can see, right? Like, it has just...

So I keep thinking, like, well, if you had jowls that, like, hung down, Renault, like, if you had whatever, the age spots that I have, if you have these marks of, like, they call them, like, straw marks, and, like, I didn't even use a straw that much, right? Like, I keep wanting, and that's just me. It's not about you. Because you don't want, because there's... What is it?

If you don't mind my saying, because there is some irrational. fear you have that you are calming with these thoughts and you don't want to not calm that irrational fear because you're afraid X will happen. Right. Because what you've done is you, the girl who got her neck, you made her right and you wrong. You didn't look at it and go, Jesus Christ, what are you doing? That's so dumb. Right. No, you said, oh, that's what one should do. I'm wrong. She's right. Right. For some reason. I don't know what the reason is. Every time I see a change on me, like looser skin, you know, at my elbow or like under the arm, you know, this. I just go, that's what a cool arm looks like.

Is your arm doesn't look like that? I feel bad for you. I didn't get those jeans yet. Oh, I feel bad for you. You don't have a cool arm yet. You know, or like I get in like the ropy neck or the loose skin on the neck. You just go, that's what a cool neck looks like. Or under the eyes or the hooded eyes or this, this that catches the light.

Stop it. That's what a cool face looks like. Right. Do you feel that way about your whole body? Yeah. Oh, yeah. So you feel that way about my whole body then, too. Yeah.

Right. Oh, yeah. I also grew up watching, like, a lot of films from the 70s and stuff. And a lot of, God, like, a lot of unique faces. Yes. I mean, if I thought anything about my face when I was a kid, it's that, like, everybody thought I was pretty. I was like, fuck, that's useless. Yeah.

You know, I. I wanted, no, I wanted to look like somebody out of a Fellini film. I wanted to be somebody, you know, like you and your nose. I mean, it's like, but it's awesome. Right. Remember the first pictures of Angelica Houston? Yeah. Oh, my God.

It's like, oh, shit. I mean, if only we could look like that. Yeah. You know what I mean? I mean, to me, I just, because also these women, see, there's something that people are, it's an unfortunate thing. If you have something that's unusual about, about you, about how you look and it's outside or the way you think or what you want to do for living or whatever it is, you have an opportunity to get bold in that. And the more times that happens, the more bulletproof you become.

So for some, and that's something that I really was, I didn't know it when I was a kid, but I really got from these women who looked in these, looked really different. Or somebody like Diana Vreeland. Just go like, oh my God, she's so confident. She's so, I wanted to be confident like that. I wanted to be rad like that. I wanted to have totally individualistic style and all this sort of thing. I wanted that. And women who have that look unusual.

That's what I found looking around because they've had to be in a lot of situations where they got bolder because of it. They went beyond it. And that's the opportunity that I feel like a lot of women are, missing or exiting exiting out of, opting out of. They're opting out of these opportunities to become bulletproof.

Like, I don't mean in a defensive way. I mean in a, if you can get to a point like me, like, you know, oh yeah, I've got this loose loose skin under my arms or, you know, or my neck or something. And if I just go like, oh, that's what cool neck looks like. Right. And it's like, there's, the more times that happens, the less ammunition anybody's got on me at all. And also, when people are criticizing you,

they're telling you about themselves. They're not telling you about you. They're saying, and sometimes it really makes people angry. Like, I imagine they're saying, like, when I look in the mirror, I see a bunch of loose skin on my neck, and I hate it, and you like it? And there's this anger that comes up. Like, they're so, and I think it's just,

they're so frustrated that this is, on their mind all the time and they can't get on the other side of it. And yeah, I'm here to say there's a way to get on the other side of it. I didn't, you know, you can read that whole chapter and fame about how it just wrecked me that these people thought I looked like a crack addict, you know? It's really, it's such a pleasure to talk to you. And I, you know, I don't know if you plan on writing another book, but I hope you do because I can't wait to see what you tackle next.

Oh, the only, the third book that I want to do, and I haven't been working on it because I'm, I've been writing op-eds about generative AI for the strikes. But I want to do it about going to school. Because I kept a blog while I was at UCLA. And I just wanted to, I want to adapt that and talk about, you know, the old, you can't teach old dog new tricks. I think it's more, it's hard to get somebody's ego to let them walk into a room and be okay with not knowing what's going on. Well, I hope you interview me for that book as well because I have a lot to say about that. The book is Face One Square Foot of Skin. Justine Bateman, it's been such a pleasure to talk to you.

Do you want to direct people anywhere to read more of your stuff or learn more about you? They can. I mean, my, you know, I'm just, Justine Bateman. I mean, well, really, all I'm talking about is generative AI now. So if you want to hear about that, so I mean, basically, if you go to justine Bateman.com, there's links to everything in there, Instagram, the Twitter. And if you do go to, there's nothing wrong with your face.com, I have all the press in there. So if they want to see me talking more about this in interviews or podcast or something like that. And I'm making it my project to find what all of my buttons are so that no one can push them.

It's fascinating. Yeah. If you can get at the root fear that's at the bottom of that reason that you went off track, I found that's really effective. Amazing. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's My and Beallix Breakdown.

She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph.D. Or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to...