Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Kal Penn: Prepare & Go Get It

Episode Date: March 29, 2022

Kal Penn (Harold and Kumar, House, Designated Survivor, author of You Can’t Be Serious) discusses navigating and overcoming stereotypes and racial biases in Hollywood. He considers the feelings of motivation and anxiety that can stem from family expectations, how a lens of positivity can lead to less stress, and ways to overcome apathy about making a societal impact. Mayim and Kal bond over their time at UCLA and working together on The Big Bang Theory. Kal opens up about the cultural phenomenon of the Harold & Kumar franchise, how he became involved in the Obama administration, and being a late bloomer in terms of his sexuality. Kal Penn's Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1982171383/kalpenn-20 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You know, we're talking late 90s here. I would go on auditions and it was always like, oh, can you do that again with an accent? And I would always say things like, oh, sure, what kind of accent do you want? I can do Irish, Brooklyn, Scandinavian, German. They were never amused by this, by the way. I was like the shit-eating 22-year-old who was trying to school them. They're like, why don't we just stick to India?

It's my and Bialics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know, she knows. a thing or two. So now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi, I'm I'm Biolic.

And welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Today, we're going to be breaking down the happiest man on the planet. But before we introduce Cal Penn, I'd like to introduce you to the second happiest man on the planet, Jonathan Michael Cohen. Hello, Miami. I'm only happy when I'm with you. That's not true.

I should say, I'm only this happy. That might be true. So, Jonathan, how are you doing today? I'm laughing because you asked me this last time, and I, like, had this sort of confused look on my face because I was like, why are you asking me? I'm fine. What are you talking about? We just spoke right before the podcast. Why are you asking me this?

I thought the goal was to get into the interview as fast as possible. But then you explained to me, you're like, no, you wanted to, like, do like, a check. check-in, like a mental health check-in to see, oh, is there anything going on with you? Because that's a great thing to model. And I was like, oh, I'm going to remember that I'm going to prepare something for the next intro, but then you just asked me again, and I didn't prepare anything. That was Jonathan explaining, explaining. The good news is, though, I think fast on my feet, and I remembered why you asked me that

question just now. No, you just procrastinated for two minutes. I've had a lot going on. There's been a lot of uncertainty I've been dealing with. I had a suspicion about something happening. And people will later hear that in the podcast, Cal Penn is like, you know, think the best of a certain situation, which is very good for one's mental health. In my situation, I did not think the best. But what I thought was accurate.

Someone was acting in a way that I knew to be sort of over the line. Do you want to know why I'm laughing, Jonathan? Why? Because the thing you're talking about, I already knew. Everybody knew what was going on but you. That wasn't you pretending to think the best. That was you was like having your head in the sand or cup and tuchas, as we say. It's your head in your tush.

Enough about me, though. Let us talk to, author of You Can't Be Serious. Cal Penn. Now, Cal Penn is a, he is a many, many, many, many, many hyphenate person because you, you may know him from the Harold and Kumar franchise. The franchise of films starring two people who he was told would never get to star in a movie, two Asian Americans. He is one of them. People from South Asia are Asian. And also, you know, he's been on house designated survivor. He also, he also. this is one of my favorite facts about him. He won Master Chef Celebrity Showdown. We didn't even talk to him about if he's a good cook. He is a good cook. And he's from New Jersey.

He went to UCLA, which is my alma mater. He went at the same time as I was there. But did he mention me in his book? No, he did not. Did he mention Jaliel White? Yes, he did. Did he mention he's friends with Jenna von Oye, who played six on Blossom?

She's even in his thank yous. But could he mention that I went to UCLA? I also worked with him on Big Bang Theory. He had a really, really funny recurring role. I guess it was our last season. And he also served, Cal Penn served as Associate Director of the White House Office of Public Engagement. He was President Obama's liaison to young Americans, Asian Americans, and Pacific Islanders, and the arts community. He worked on a range of issues, including the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Ask, Don't

The Affordable Care Act, Pell Grants, Arts and Culture Programs, the Dream Act, and rapid response to the BP oil spill and the earthquake in Haiti as well. He's one of those people who he balances many, many things. But the difference between people like me who balance a lot of things in him is that he has an incredible temperament. I'm very, very fascinated by this person. Let's welcome to our breakdown, Cal Penn. Break it down. Cal Penn, welcome to our breakdown.

Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm going to go ahead and hold your book up because it's time to. So this is your book. That's right. I have a signed edition and I'm not afraid to show it. Your book, You Can't Be Serious. Taught me so many things about you. And I knew some things about you. Sure. And we worked together on Big Bang Theory briefly, but it was really fun. And one of the things I learned about you is your role.

your full name is actually calpen yeah my full first name calpin so it was pronounced calpin uh calpin or culpin depending on who's pronounced which is the right pronouncing the actual way to pronounce it is culpin the right pronunciation is culpin yeah culpin but uh i mean calpin is sort of the angle says pronunciation. And so just like many names, like Joseph, Kalpin became Cal. And so when I was coming up with a screen name, which we both went to UCLA around the same time, although we did not know each other. I noticed I'm not mentioned in your book, but if you want to get into it, we didn't know each other. We didn't know. So I remember in the dorms my freshman, freshman year, yeah, probably towards the end of my freshman year, none of my friends were theater or film students.

And so they were all always just really kind of perplexed that I would try to be on this path with absolutely no promise of job stability. Because they were like, you know, either finance majors or accounting or something in bio, a lot of South Campus. And so one night at like two in the morning, they're like, you know, you should come up with a screen name. You know, so many actors, they just, it's a screen name after screen name. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, well, like, Whoopi Goldberg. Like, that's not her name? Like, no, think about it.

Her name is not Whoopi Goldberg. name is Karen Johnson, and she came up with this incredible screen name. And could you imagine if she didn't, like, she would just be far less memorable. Chevy Chase, his name is Cornelius. So anyway, so we went through all of these, they talked me sort of into it. I'm like, yeah, why not? Give it a shot. What should my screen name be?

And tell us your given last name. My given last name is Modi, M-O-D-I. Which is a very sweet little name. Thank you. Thank you. These guys were like, what about Cal Pacino? I was like, yeah, I see what you're doing there. I'm not going to call myself Cal Pacino.

So we ended up like, I just thought, well, what if I just split my first name and half? Cal is already a nickname. Maybe Penn is the four-letter last name instead of Modi. And I had gotten headshots right around that time and like new headshot. Very handsome. Your headshots are lovely. They were very, it is in the book because it's such a ridiculous.

It's fantastic. Late 90s headshot. And I'm sorry, you add. added another end because you thought a four-letter last name was better than a three-letter last name? No, the joke that I use is the extra N is for not going to play a stereotypical cab driver. I've been encouraging Miam to get a stage name. I think she could break through to a larger audience if she Americanized. Your name is so badass.

I don't know. I also think just like I'll never know if it was, you know, having a more Western sounding name or a catchier name or Some people were like, oh, it's like two different universities. Like, who knows? That was, you know, in the mid-90s. Oh, I didn't even think of Cal and Penn. Yeah. Yeah.

But I do think what's interesting now is like you said, like the idea of coming up with a screen name is, it's not about that anymore. It's like, what can be the most unique, right? Like the 2022 version of a screen name is like, what's the craziest most unique standout? Look to what everyone's naming their children and you will learn what is the most unique. But also, you're. Your given name is, you know, for Western eyes and ears, easy to pronounce. Sure.

You know, meaning, you know, even your given name in theory, I could mess it up, you know, two different ways. Whereas with names like mine, I mean, it literally is. You can mess my name. You can mess my first name up about five different ways. Yeah. And my last name, you know, just about as many. So I win is really what I was. You have a really beautiful American story.

Thank you. You know, you have a really rich, a rich family history of a lot of community and connection and camaraderie. And, you know, anyone who has had South Asian friends or spent time in a South Asian community knows it's a very, very large extended community and family. And you paint that portrait really nicely, you know, the notion of, you know, having, just like everyone is kind of your aunt and your uncle and your cousins. And everyone really has equal rights to lay claim to your. existence. 100%. Like, it's very, very intimate.

And you paint this kind of portrait of like, you know, people who otherwise wouldn't know your most intimate decisions about life, like right up in your face, along with your parents. And they're invested in it, you know, the, what we call like the auntie and uncle's circle, right? So it's people who share an immigration experience with your parents. You're not related by blood, but everybody is an auntie or an uncle. And they're like in your business in a way that like they need to know like where are you applying to college?

What grades did you get? What did you get on your SATs? And they're not asking for you. They're asking for them. Like it needs to be up to their level. Like if you even like look, even the kids who were saying that they wanted to, you know, be doctors or engineers, it was like even that was like, what kind of doctor? because I think that you should be, right, and then they would rattle off. Like, I think you'd be good as an oncologist or someone else is like,

no, pediatrician is really your game. You're the person who should tell people they're dying. That's the face. Jonathan, what does this sound like? I mean, a lot of our culture is very similar. I was supposed to be a doctor, lawyer, or an accountant. My NBi-Lex breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office

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You were born in New Jersey, correct? I was, yes. You grew up not only in a place, but also at a time when we were still, we as a culture, we're still really learning what South Asians were and what South Asians weren't. You know, the notion of people from India was this sort of like monolithic, like, notion where like there's a lot of differences in culture, language, religion, practice, you know, across India. But, but you grew up in a place where there were, you dedicate a really healthy part of the book to the Bar Mitzvah experience that you had. And also I will say,

you know, it sounds like you grew up in an affluent community, meaning the Jews that you speak about, had Bar Mitzvah experiences that were very different, for example, than mine. They might have been similar to Jonathan. from Toronto, but there absolutely was something that I really identified when you spoke about your family. Tell us a little bit about growing up. Your parents are highly educated, very successful. Yeah, you know, my parents moved to the states. They were part of the post-1965 wave of immigration. And I always try to talk about this because it's the one thing that's lost. You're right, especially back in the day when you would think of South Asians, but Asian Americans as a whole,

we would think of them as this monolith, right? Like, oh, you're just from some general nebulous Asian region, and that's all we know. And my parents' experience was that it's, so 1965 immigration laws changed, primarily to allow people from Asian countries who were either studying or had a degree in things like engineering and medicine, because in America we had a shortage of doctors and engineers. And so that's one of the reasons you see so many Indian American doctors or Asian American doctors or engineers. My dad's an engineer. My mom got her master's in chemistry. So that's what brought them to America. And they, you know, my dad moved to America with $12 in his pocket. But his circumstance

of immigration allowed him to sort of climb that ladder through hard work that a lot of other immigrants, you know, that that avenue is sort of closed no matter how hard you work. So I'm always mindful of that because you're right, the town that I primarily grew up in in Monmouth County is this affluent, you know, very, in the book, I think I describe it as like, It was mostly a white town, but it was still diverse. And what I mean by that is like, you know, most of my close friends were Jewish. So they had extended families. And it was like going to their houses for dinner was not unlike, you know, my parents having all their friends over.

Just the idea of what family meant. And then even, you know, and so you'd also hear other languages spoken, right? And so we had friends who were Polish and Italian. And it just didn't dawn on me. Like the idea of being bilingual to me growing up was always part of being American. It wasn't until after high school when I went to college that I was like, oh, wow, a lot of people are just not bilingual. There's so many white people who only speak one language. Like they seem aggrieved by my ability to communicate in multiple languages.

This is fascinating. But in, you know, in Jersey in the 80s and 90s, it was having that aspect of diversity was very grounding for me. But also you still felt othered, right? Like the, we used to get picked on all the time. People would, in fact, this is one of the first things that drew me to understanding why things like representation and the media matters. I remember when you'd get your ass kicked in the hallway at the time that was not called bullying, by the way.

It was just called eighth grade. It's just called living, correct? Yeah, yeah, right. It's like not being cool. But, you know, when they would, the difference I realized between me and the other nerds was that when I would get my ass kicked, they would recite quotes from the Simpsons or Indiana Jones in the Temple of Doom, right? And I'm like, oh, well, that seems weird.

Like, it seems like I would get my ass kicked anyway, but that added, like, icing of racism on that cake was something that I was mindful of because it's those types of experiences that put you in check to know that, okay, people see me differently than the way that maybe I see myself. Was that something that was, like, that was spoken about in your home?

Because, you know, my parents are first generation Americans. And so there was this kind of notion of, like, we seem like we fit in. And obviously, you know, having, white skin, which not all Jews do, but we do. We're Eastern European. You know, there was this notion of like, always distrust whatever's happening out there.

Like, they may turn on you at any minute, which is not a healthy way to grow up. But I am curious because you also, you come from, and this is another thing we share in common, my parents were civil rights activists. So you also come from a family that lived through, I mean, seeing one of the greatest leaders. for nonviolent protest in the world, you know, as part of part of the consciousness of your grandparents

generation. So was that something you talked about, like that kind of otherness? Or was it like, just try and get by, fly under the radar? I don't think it was fly under the radar, but what was, I revered my grandparents. My grandparents marched with Gandhi and were active in the Indian independence movement when they were younger. And so the stories that I would hear, I mean, truly, the stories I would here as like an eight-year-old at the dinner table when they would visit us from India, they would stay with us for a few months out of the year. The story that any grandma tells their grandkids to coerce them into eating their vegetables, mine just happened to be about like the salt march.

And so I didn't, and so the eight-year-old means like, oh, there she goes again, grandma with another Gandhi story. All right. But as I got older, obviously by the time I was like 11, 12, certainly 13 years old, I'm like, oh, wow, my grandparents were really part of something very special that was in many ways the basis of our own American civil rights movement and nonviolent civil disobedience. And so the family value in our house was just sort of do the right thing and make your voice heard if you feel strongly about something. It was never about politics. It was never about religion.

In fact, being sort of Gandhi and freedom fighters, their view of faith was really open and really wonderful. And they would encourage me, they loved that I was going to bar mitzvahs every weekend. loved that friends would invite me to like mosque or church or you know whatever they were they're always like oh you should go you know there's only one god and different forms of worship and all of that and so that was like I really revered um my my grandparents I don't think that meant that we uh I don't think that had a say in like whether we were just blending in you know staying quiet to fit in or not but I do think that later in life the idea that I had kind of a public service bug along with my arts, right, and trying to double major in college or going to grad school for international

security and kind of doing both of those things. I think a lot of that influence was because of my grandparents. But I'm curious, like, did your mother wear sorry? Like, was she identifiable as different, let's say, as a woman? I mean, you know, I know you were often asked, like, where's your turban, but you're not Sikh? So I am curious, though, was there a blending in like that? Because it is kind of different for women, you know, especially for the Sikh community. Women are more identifiable if they were sorry or, you know. Right. Yeah, no, you know, I never asked my, my parents directly, and I probably should. That's actually an interesting thing to maybe know. My parents, you know, when they would go to work, would dress professionally for the job. I almost

hesitate describing it that way, because obviously there's nothing wrong with people who choose to wear ethnic attire to their jobs. Which were not allowed to call costumes. Like in the 70s, that's what it was called. Like, oh, it looks. Look at that costume. No, that's just clothing. I know, right. Exactly. Exactly. But no, I mean, my dad wore a suit to work every day as an engineer. He took the bus into New York City. My mom would drive to, she worked as a fragrance evaluator for a perfume company. So she had this insane job where she would combine her olfactory senses with a knowledge of chemistry.

On weekends, like, I mean, definitely when we would go to Indian functions or gatherings or have family friends over, People would wear, you know, you'd wear a sorry for going to a wedding or you'd wear a... Oh, like we put on sweats on the weekend. Your mom would be like, I'm going to put on. Exactly. The less uncomfortable version of sweats. That's fascinating to me. I love that.

That's like her sweats. You know what I think, what was interesting to me growing up, and I think part of this is because of the type of place I grew up, right, like a suburb of New York City that was somewhat diverse or white diverse, was that it's a lot of, you. lot of a lot of South Asian immigrants or kids of South Asian immigrants, they feel, and they talk about this a lot where they feel like they were trapped between two worlds or that they had a foot in two different worlds and that they were often being forced to ask to choose between the two. And I never really felt that way. I always felt very comfortable with, you know, who I was and being multilingual and, you know, the things that I think can sometimes bother kids, like the food they eat at home or the way their parents talk or what, you know, the dichotomy

of that versus what's happening in school. And I think one of the reasons I was fairly comfortable with that is I felt like an outsider within the Brown community because I had an interest in the arts. So that was sort of the difference where I think a lot of kids, to your question about whether my mom were sorry or not, I think for a lot of people, they point to experiences like that where they felt othered or they felt out of place. They're like, oh, someone's going to stare at my mom. In my case, it was the opposite where I'm like, I just feel like, I'm all staring at you. I'm all staring at me because I'm not trying to be a doctor. Sure. Do you have siblings? I do. I have a younger brother. And is he also artistic?

He's not. He is not a doctor. He works in a nonprofit. But he is not artistic. So I was definitely the weirdo. Here's a question also because you describe, you know, in the book a very, you know, a very kind of patient persistence that your parents had specifically around academics. and, you know, a lot of times when we think about a childhood like that, we, I mean, at least I assume like, gosh, that sounds stressful or that sounds like oppressive or it sounds like that would breed so much anxiety. Meanwhile, like, look who's talking, you know? Like, I was raised, like, bathed in anxiety juice. In my family or in many families that I knew growing up, it was like, it was a very, like, there was a constant, like, battle over like, why aren't you doing this? Or like, are you going to do this? Or, you know, especially.

in families that actually could afford medical school or law school, which my family could not. You know, it's this notion of like, you will do this. It's what's expected. It's what your father did. You know, or like my dad was supposed to be an accountant. As if it was like being the United Nations chief. Like, how could you not be an accountant? Right. But when I read your story, what I hear is that there was this kind of persistent pressure, but it didn't, not pressure. There was a persistent expectation. But it also doesn't sound like it bred in you a tremendous amount of anxiety. It seems. It seems like it bred a lot of motivation to do what you actually wanted to do the way you wanted to do it. I think it's less, so you're right in a sense where it was less about like the day-to-day anxiety that you're describing. Because I think even if I wanted to be a doctor, right, or even if I wanted to be an engineer, the conversations that those family functions were like, where are you going to college?

And then somebody would say, oh, I'm applying early to Yale. You know, where are you going to college? I'm going to Hopkins. I'm pre-med. Where are you going to college? I'm going to be you. And then everyone would go, oh my gosh, she's going to be you. And then the girl who was asked would go, no, no, but for their seven-year medical program. And then all the aunties and uncles would like breathe a cyber relief and be like, oh, well, that's okay. You can go to BU for that. So it was like, if you were so far out of that realm, I remember having people come up to me, you know, my parents' friends and they would say things like, you can't do this to your parents. You can't, you know, you'll be,

You'll be homeless. You'll be, you know, you think that you like this now. Acting is a perfectly nice hobby. Why would you throw your life away? And so it was less about the day-to-day anxiety and more about, like, there was just a blanket. Like, we don't, we do not support or condone this. And I asked my parents about this actually. I put this in the little tag at the end of the book because it was the one thing I even, I feel silly now. I'm in my early 40s and I had never thought about this, right? Like, I called my parents, because I tell the story in a longer way about the aunties and uncles and all that. And I called my parents and I was like,

hey, of all the things I'm fact-checking, I just need it on a scale of one to ten. Back in eighth grade, ninth grade, when this would all happen with the family friends, how embarrassed were you that I said that I wanted to be an actor and a filmmaker? On a scale of one to ten. And both of my parents said,

we were never embarrassed. I don't know why that's in your head. We were scared. We just never thought that the arts were a viable career that somebody could have, especially not somebody who looked like us or came from our community. And so any discouragement that you felt was really based on our own sense of fear as immigrants. I just like, what a silly thing to not recognize.

That's also like to spend your whole life. I mean, like some of us go to therapy forever about things like this. Like how nice that they were able to correct it at a point when you can still have a productive life. No, totally. It was a great conversation. But so I just feel like it's it wasn't. Look, the other thing that I say, lot because you're right is that like you have to be insane to be an artist period like if you're going

into dance or screenwriting or acting whatever you're just you have to be there's a part of you that's crazy and the the toughest thing that you're going to deal with in terms of rejection for your artistic merits is like the rejection from producers and networks and going on a million auditions before you get one that that's like like the conversation with the parents and the family and being shamed for being a doctor that's nothing compared to like the real sense of they were trained you. They were right. Literally,

my father would literally say that to me when he would, when I would run lines with him or when we would, you know, and he'd be really critical. Well, how are you going to take it when they pick on you? I'm just trying to toughen you up. Thanks, dad.

Now I'm weeping openly. You know, you had, I don't want to describe your childhood as uneventful because it was very eventful. But you found theater. You know, you found humor and you found comedy.

And you found it in a way that was, in certain ways kind of socially transformative for you. And, you know, kind of to paraphrase, you know, you kind of became like the guy who was the nerd is like the funny nerd, you know. And it's sort of, you know, led to these different levels of kind of entry, you know, into teenhood and, you know. You went to UCLA, very far away from home. And you moved to Los Angeles. And, you know, your experience at, I mean, besides the fact, that again, you didn't mention me in your book, even though we were literally at UCLA at the same

time. But I was in South Campus. So, you know, I didn't get up to your side of the world often. You know, it's a very, it's a public university. It's a, it's a diverse, you know, student body. And by that, you know, you have people of all different shapes, sizes, colors, sexual orientation, socioeconomic backgrounds. I got very nostalgic because you describe finding, you know, ISU, the Indian Student Union. You know, they were, they would often table next to the Jewish Student Union, you know, basically there's a, there's a walk at UCLA, it's called Bruin Walk, and like all the, like pick your ethnic group and we would line up, you know, and there were these little tables. And so I often, you know, would see a lot of the activity. I mean, I'm sure that we,

you know, literally cross paths at, at some point. But what was it like kind of your experience at UCLA? because I would imagine it felt a lot bigger, you know, in some ways than like the town you grew up in. Yeah. Yeah. Look, I loved UCLA. I was on what we call the five-year plan. So I took a little longer to graduate. But the reason I loved it so much is leaving high school, you know, the acting bug for me was from middle school.

It was because I realized that comedy brought people together. And it was a way of, you know, when somebody, like, it made bullies laugh when they would see school plays. And I just thought the eighth. eighth grade version of that brain is now what I realize is like, wow, the power to change hearts and minds is pretty incredible. And so that only grew more and more. But my guidance counselor in high school said, when I said, you know, I want to go into the arts, but I also have a passion for public service and international studies. And she goes, well, you can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm like, what kind of advice is this? This is awful, awful advice. And then I get to UCLA and they realize, like, it's a huge school. There are people from every walk of life. People have multiple interests, just. by virtue of the type of university it is, right? And I was thriving. I was loving going, I mean, I was the, I was the weirdo who took, like, I took Ls2. Ls2 is a pre-med weeder class at E.CLA. Those are our life science core curriculum, which they don't call anymore, but yeah. Yeah. So you take that class only if you're going into a science major. I took it as an

elective. I failed it, by the way. I had to drop it. Yeah, that's not like biology for non-science majors. That's like real, real biology, yes. And I remember Tyra. I did end up taking the bio for non-science majors in the end. Did you study AIDS? Was it the AIDS class or the cancer class? It was the cancer class. That's right. There was an AIDS class and the cancer class.

I remember actually sitting in LSD who was, you know, massive like 400-person lecture. And I missed something the professor said. This was supposed to be in the second week. And I asked a kid next to me. I'm like, hey, what did she say? And he covers his notebook and goes, don't look at my paper. I'm like, I'm a film major. We are not competing for med school slots.

But no, that was the only place I have found competition like that is in an audition room. Literally, I mean, I was, you know, I did a pre-med major. You know, so I was in class. There were kids. You would literally be just like, hey, can you tell me what the assignment was? And they would turn, as if you were in an audition room and you said, hey, do you know to pronounce this word? And they would just pretend they did not even hear you.

I don't know who that. Like, it's so competitive and insane. That's your future doctor as well. but I like to remind people. Like, I was in class with everyone who's telling, holding your hand while you die, but they wouldn't give the person next to them the homework aside. That's why doctors lack a little bit of social skills.

Yes. You ended up, I mean, I hate to, like, consolidate. Like, I mean, I really, I recommend people read, you can't be serious, to get, like, the full story. And you are, you're really a lovely storyteller. And it's a very enjoyable journey that you take us on. And also, You know, we get to this point in your kind of young career where I don't want to say it's not enjoyable, but you start coming up against kind of, you know, the reality of your situation, which is that there's, especially at the time that you were auditioning, there's a very specific box that you are supposed to fit into, you know, as a South Asian man.

Yeah. And, you know, the accent is obviously one of the things that we pay a lot of attention to. And this is not to say that there are not South Asian people with accents. There are. We interact with them all the time. What you kind of came up against with a tremendous amount of bravery, you know, was people kind of repeatedly pushing back and really wanting you to essentially be a caricature. And, you know, as a comedian, I'm sure you would agree. Like stereotypes exist for a reason. Oh, yeah. Blah, blah, blah, all those things. And still, you got told to shut up a lot. And you got told to essentially know your place, you know, and that's just kind of what happens, you know, in our industry. But you did finally kind of, I mean, you had several breaks, you know, in your career. Like, what was sort of that, that set of journeys like? Because you were, I mean, at that point, you're really trying to see, like, can I support myself as an actor? Like, can I

keep the lights on? Yeah, right. I think it depends on like, you know, my definition of success or what I wanted was I just loved storytelling. I loved making people laugh. And if I could pay my rent from acting, like that was huge, right? That was going to be a big goal. And I kind of realized early on there was, you know, and I talk about this, I write about this a lot in the book. And then in the audio book, I riffed a little bit on this because I had, I truly enjoyed fact-checking all these stories that I tell so much because the 2020 or 2021 version of me is like, was it really that fucked up. And then I would call people and not prompt them and just like, what do you remember about this experience? And I'm like, oh my God, dude, let me tell you this story. And they all checked

out. So what I mean by that is, you know, every actor knows, like you know when you're going into this business. There will be times when you don't get auditions or you don't even get a callback because you're too tall, too short, too fat, too skinny, all the things. What I was not well prepared for was realizing that as a performer of color, you oftentimes don't have the luxury of being too tall, too fat, too short, too skinny because you're just too brown or you're, you know, they just, they have a really narrow vision of what they're looking for with the character. That even, to some extent, is like every actor deals with that. You're signing up for that, you know, if you look like you're a football player from Iowa,

you're just not, you're not getting cast in something that's not the football player from Iowa unless you prove yourself or until you prove yourself. What I wasn't prepared for was all the, the stereotypes, and you're 100% right. I say this all the time when people ask about stereotypes. It's like, an accent alone does not make a stereotype. A profession. Playing a cab driver or a store clerk alone does not make a stereotype. The challenge comes when racial signifiers and things that people use to cover up bad writing is the only essence of a character, right?

Because then it becomes about that character's ethnicity or race or any of that. And in addition to just being phenomenally boring, that's also what people mean when they're like, that was kind of racist. So in, you know, we're talking late 90s here. I would go on auditions and it was it was always like, oh, can you do that again with an accent? And I would always say things like, oh, sure, what kind of accent do you want? I can do Irish, Brooklyn, Scandinavian, German, you know, and they would, they were never amused by this. That's the way. I was like the shit eating 22 year old who was trying to school them. They're like, uh, why don't we just stick to Indian? And, and then in fairness, Look, I was the one who made the choice, right?

Were there times when I left and didn't want to do it, of course? But there were also times when I realized I need a credit on my resume. And nobody's forcing me to do this, but maybe I will do an accent. And I remember the show Sabrina, the Teenage Witch. Like, I auditioned for this show. I prepped for this thing. It was really only one scene. And I created a whole backstory for the character where he was like from Seattle and liked

small batch organic coffee. And I go to the audition. They ask me to do an Indian accent. I did it ultimately. I got the part and asked my agent, and I was like, do you think that you could call them and see if I could do it

the way I did the first audition without an accent? She goes, you know, you know you're taking the part because it pays $700 and your rent is $5.50 that month. I'm like, correct. Like, second of all,

you know that you're taking this part because you need credits on your resume. I can't pitch you for things if your resume is barren. So why don't you go in a little early, pull the director aside and just have a conversation with him? So I'm like, oh, I didn't know

that was a thing I could do. That would be great. So I go in early. I pull this director aside. I was like, hey, I was just hoping that maybe... And how old are you? Hold on. I am, yeah, how old I am probably, let's see, 22, 22, 23. Yeah, like a Pissure.

Like, a Pissure. Like, I can't, like... Yeah. And by the way, it's like super skinny. Like, for people who, if you got the audio book, you didn't see the photo, but you can check my Twitter. It is prominently displayed on there. It's just this, like, very baby-faced headshot kid.

I probably weighed, like, 120 pounds. And the director, I was like, you know, I'd love if I could maybe play the part without an accent. What do you think? And he goes, oh, no, I mean, that accent's really funny. That's why we hired you. And so I remember thinking, well, you know, they say that racism comes from ignorance. So maybe I'll just explain to him. So I said, well, you know what?

I appreciate this so much. And the show is so funny. And by the way, like, the show was not that funny. It's about a fucking talking cat and witches, right? It's like really low-hanging fruit there. So I buttered him up and I said, I think I would just love to be able to play it without an Indian accent because, you know,

I never got to see characters who look like me on screen. I'm just like he must be like, I can't keep going. Who didn't have? Well, I felt like I had nothing to lose, right? So I was like, you know, I never got to see characters like this growing up on screen. And I just thought it would be really, really great if there was a guy who just spoke,

like I did. And he looks at me like I have asked for the world. And he goes, uh, no. I said you're doing the accent. And that's what you're going to do. And then I thought, okay, you know what? I'm obviously not explaining it properly. So I said, uh, I said, you know, I, my cousins, I have little cousins. This was true. I have little cousins. This is the best part of this story. Go ahead. They love Sabrina the Teenage Wish. And I think it would be so cool since they've never seen anyone who looks like them on TV who wasn't a stereotype

if maybe when they watch the show, they get a different experience than the one that I had when I was growing up. And wouldn't that be amazing if, you know, in a show this funny, if they didn't have to watch a stereotype? And he looked at me and he goes, you know, your little cousin should feel lucky that you're allowed to be on TV to begin with,

and so should you. And he walks off. And I was like, ah, okay, so it's not ignorance. It is a very calculated, very purposeful thing that people do when they're talking about race and representation. And that kind of blew my mind, right, because you're trained to assume the best in people, or at least until, well, at that time, when you're 22, come on, before you're a cynic, before you realize the ways of the world. And so, you know, look, I did it. It turned out my cousins actually were not fans of the teenagers. They were too smart for that, even at age eight and nine.

But that was a big eye-opener for me, you know, because, look, ultimately, like, to actually answer your question, just how do you navigate that? I just wanted to make people laugh badly enough. I knew that, or at least I had hoped, that if I banked a certain number of these jobs, one of two things would happen.

Either nothing would change in Hollywood, and I would end up saying no to a lot and maybe going to law school. Or, B, the industry would change. I would have a little more agency with my writing, with my comedy, and having those jobs would lead to better jobs

that would break me out of those sorts of stereotypes. The latter ended up being true primarily because of projects like... I like that those were your only two options. Well, that's, I mean, in my head, those were the only two options. Like, I either become a lawyer or be, become the man you now know as CalPen.

I was very dramatic. I guess I still am. Was there a timeline in you? your head? Was there like, I'm going to do this until? And then like, you know, there's like countdown to being a lawyer. Here's what's crazy. It probably wasn't a lawyer. I probably would have gone to like grad school for international studies or something. But also no. I mean, the thing is there was, there were a couple of times when I said I wanted to give up, but then wouldn't give up. And there were also times when I had this thing with, I know a lot

of actors deal with this. We're like, if you're in a rut, you're convincing yourself that you're not getting parts even before you leave the house to go on auditions. It's this weird cycle of just feeling so beaten down by thing. And there was a time where I'm like, wait, what am I doing? Why am I not preparing to the best of my ability, going on these auditions, fully expecting maybe someone's going to say something racist to me, or it's going to be a room full of like very handsome white boys

and I'm going to convince myself that I don't deserve the part, right? Like full imposter syndrome. And I'm like, why are you doing that? Either like, you know, go get a graduate degree, do something else with your life or prepare and like go for it no matter what. I realized I chose the latter because of that insanity that, like, being an art, the difference between a hobby or doing summer stock or something like that versus having to do this as your profession is, I think, the difference there, right?

Like, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the arts as a hobby and plenty of people do it and they're wonderfully fulfilled. And in my case, it was like, no, I need to do this. I need to do this for my primary career. And I think that's what the big motivator was. I mean, again, it's like the fact that there's only two choices. How about you assume you won't get the part

know that you're already less attractive than everyone going I'm just giving you my method. Yeah, yeah. Assuming that it will be terrible and it will lead to suffering and you won't have the option to fall back on anything and you'll all die in the street.

So, okay, Ma'am, you are somebody who I have wanted to ask about this because you also juggle many different passions and careers and degrees and all of that. We haven't even gotten to your other career. Okay, okay. But I'm curious because the auditioning process is very much like that. And the shit that people say now is very like, you know, it used to be just, it's basically

racism or not racism, and then you get the part or don't get the part. And then as I started getting older, it was things like, he's not, you know, in fact, I remember when I, when I, I think this is a little anecdote in the, in the audio book, but the, when we booked Harold and Kumar to White Castle, the director, the late Danny liner who was incredible. He had a party at his house and a bunch of his drunk friends came and we all went before we went off to shoot the movie and this woman

who was she was so drunk and she came up to me and she I think she was a producer somewhere she got I just want to say congratulations because I just I told Danny that you were my favorite

for the part of Kumar I said don't hire that guy who went to UCLA he's not hot at all. I said, you have to hire the guy from New York. He's so hot. And I'm so glad he hired you. And I'm like, uh, I'm the one from UCLA. I got the, so I'm like, in your drunkenness, even though I was the far less hot one who you didn't want hired because I'm not hot. Like, you even confused us. Like, we all looked the same even in your drunkenness. Thank you very much.

I appreciate it. Anyway, so it was like as you graduate towards the other reasons you don't get parts, Anyway, I just, I'm always super fascinated by other people's stories because you're right. It's like if you don't view the world in binary, then how are you dealing with rejection and success? Like what you described about just presuming suffering, if I do that, then I feel like I don't get the joy out of the projects that I do book. Oh, I'm sorry, I'm supposed to get joy. I'm sorry. That wasn't, that's not part of, I'm not programmed that way. They didn't, I don't have that software.

They didn't give me. I don't have that app. I assume you don't go into that movie thinking that this is going to become what it ultimately becomes, which is like a cultural phenomenon. No, that's right. That audition I remember, like, I was just so excited. It was the funniest script I'd ever read. I was shocked that I was remotely physically right for a movie like that. I actually remember John Horwitz and Hayden Schlossberg were acquaintances with somebody I was working with.

And so they sent me the script before they sold it. And I remember telling Hurwitz, hey, man, you're not going to sell this movie unless you change the ethnicity of the characters. I've had several friends who have tried to tell South Asian stories or cast South Asian characters. It's just not going to happen. So I don't know what your plan is, but if you choose not to change the ethnicity of the characters, let me know. Like, my dad knows a bunch of rich cardiologists. Like maybe we can raise some VC money and we can shoot this thing independently. And he goes, first of all, we're making Harold and Kumar go to Whitecast.

I'm not trying to make a movie called David and Jason go to McDonald's. And number two, we're selling it to a major studio. So thank you, but no, we're selling it. And I'm like, you're not. You're never going to sell this thing. I know. I've been around for eight years or 10 years,

whatever it was at the time. I'm like, you're not going to sell it. And a week and a half later, he calls me back and goes, hey, we sold it to a company called Senator. New Line Cinema is distributing it with Warner Brothers as a parent company. Or maybe Warner wasn't the parent yet. But that was like, and then we started this very aggressive you know, there's never a shortage of performers to fit a specific role.

That always tends to be like the studio's excuse for lack of diversity. It's like, well, where would we find the parents? Like, you would have to open your eyes a little bit and go with the list that you haven't used before. But so, you know, they audition people everywhere. Like New York, Sydney, Chicago, L.A., obviously. And we got those parts and just thought we're so excited. it's this small independent film. The movie comes out, it tanks at the box office.

Everybody always forgets this. It barely made it for its initial week or two run, whatever they promised distributors. And then we were devastated. I mean, we were sort of like this prove, I remember actually having this conversation that there were people who said, Hollywood's not ready or America's not ready

for a buddy comedy or a comedy that has two Asian American men as the leads. And I was convinced, obviously, they were ready. I was like, I know people who laugh at the lame jokes I make. And then when it didn't do well, we thought, like, could that be true? Did the executives really know what they were talking about? I think it was something like six months later it comes out on DVD and on HBO, and people started gifting it to each other and having watch parties.

And it wasn't just like New York, San Francisco, L.A. It was like Oklahoma and Iowa and all of these places in the middle of the country. Because as it turns out, yes, people love to laugh no matter what the characters look like as long as the script is solid. And it was this, like, whenever you hear us talking about our fans, It's with such reverence because they've given us this incredible franchise. I wish I could tell you that everyone I meet in Hollywood is as articulate and intelligent and eloquent as CalPEN. But it is unusual to meet people who want to kind of like talk and think and connect like you do.

And you had a very serious role in the Obama administration and ended up kind of balancing, I mean, balancing two, careers, both of which were, you know, phenomenal in their own right. And you, you did this, like, crazy, like, jet setting thing. And, and were, you know, this enormous part of an administration that you also believed very deeply in, you know, as it aligned with a lot of your, your kind of family history and, and sort of politics. How many times did you high five Obama? Well, can I, can I just start by saying, my, I mean, thank you. I feel the same way about you. I love what we do in the creative space,

but it's always really refreshing when you're working with somebody, you're talking to somebody who also has a background or an expertise on something else, whether it's a love of life or a neuroses or whatever it is that makes us who we are, I really enjoy those conversations. And the biggest takeaway probably, like when I went off to go work at the White House,

and for folks who don't know the story, obviously it's in the audio book and the long, way, but I was volunteering for the Obama campaign that was actually, you know what, I'm going to tell you the story, because your listeners are nerds like we are, and I mean that with love, because we are from the same people in that sense. So the reason I ended up volunteering for the Obama campaign to begin with, and this was October of 2007. So if you follow politics, this was before the Iowa caucuses. The summer, it's the fall after the summer in which Obama was down 30 points in the polls leading up to the Iowa caucuses. So everybody sort of said,

this guy is obviously not a viable candidate. The Democratic primary is going to be won by either Hillary Clinton or John Edwards. And I was working on the TV show House at the time. And Olivia Wilde, who's one of my coworkers, had a plus one to this Obama event. And she goes, hey, do you want to come? And I'm like, no, I'm good. She goes, well, it's a pretty intimate event. It's going to be 50 artists or so, he's going to ask if people will help him volunteering in Iowa before the Iowa caucuses. And I was like, no, I don't really have any interest. She goes, well, I saw you reading his book. And I was like, well, yeah, I read a lot. It doesn't mean I want to go. Like, you know how politicians work in L.A. They come through. They make a speech. They ask for money. They say what

people want to hear. And then they're totally different when either the cameras disappear or they're being chummy with people who have been big checks. Like, I have no desire to experience any of this. And I think she must have said something like, well, I mean, it's an open bar. And I was like, sweet, I made. So before going to this Obama event, I'm like, let me, you know, if it's an artist event, people are obviously going to ask questions about arts funding and arts education. I want to ask a question that's different. So I go on his campaign's website and I'm reading about climate change. And I was like, okay, I'm reading about how Obama's plan is to invest in biofuels and how much corn we have to produce to turn into ethanol. And I remember, and I remember. This also shows you what a nerd I am. I remembered an article that I had read a couple of months prior in a magazine called Foreign Affairs. You know, like you do. It's what we all read. Like one does, yes.

The big thick blue. It's on my night table. Yeah, exactly. Right. And I remember that article said something about how if we invest heavily in corn to turn into ethanol, it can drive the price of corn up for people who rely on it for food in developing countries because the marketplace won't differentiate between corn for industrial production

and human consumption. So I'm like, well, boom, there's my question, right? So I'm at this event. Who wouldn't think that? Who wouldn't have that question come to them? So I'm maybe three glasses of wine in. Olivia and I are standing next to each other. Obama's making the rounds.

And he introduces himself. And I was like, you know, Senator, I actually, I have a question about your climate change proposal. And he looks at me, he's like, oh, all right. I said, you know, I read that you're investing in corn to turn into ethanol for fuel, but isn't that just going to raise the price of corn for people who rely on it for food in developing countries? And he kind of gives me this, this like half-cocky smirk that I think we all know at this point. And he goes, oh, yeah, I read that article in foreign affairs too.

You know, if you had read my campaign proposal carefully, you would have seen that I'm investing in corn-based ethanol as a bridge to cellulosic ethanol so that we can, you know, one day make clean energy from things like our grass clippings and raking the leaves in your yard. And he gives me another one of the smirks and walks off. And Olivia's like, you just got schooled by Senator Obama. And I'm just, I had that brief moment of like, at what point did that combination of hubris and just artistic nonsense meet for me to say, maybe I know more than someone who sits on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee? You're kind of cocky. You're kind of a cocky guy. Right, when it came to that, I was like, oh, come on, it's a room full of fellow actors. I'm going to ask a smarty band's question.

No, I did not. I failed miserably. Anyway, Olivia and I both signed up to volunteer for Obama that evening. And that's kind of what launched going to 26 different states on behalf of the campaign. When you start, and this goes for any political campaign, whether somebody's running for president or local city council, if you join the campaign early enough and the campaign sort of picks up steam and grows, it grows sort of concentric circles. So you're trusted with executing things on behalf of the candidate as the campaign grows bigger and bigger. So by the time he had won the presidency, there was an opportunity to serve at the White House.

That story really came together because of Michelle Obama, who hazed me into taking a job essentially, which I appreciated very much. But I get to the White House, very long-witted way of saying, the thing that I didn't fully appreciate, you know, I go off to do this thing. I didn't realize it was going to become a news story, perhaps naively. And the reason I didn't realize that is because thousands of other people literally were doing the exact same thing that I was doing. We live in the type of democracy where people take leaves of absence from their private sector jobs all the time or from academia. Some of them are CEOs or lawyers or, you know, there was a pediatrician in my office,

somebody who worked at a clean energy company. That's a thing that people do. They do it obviously for the executive branch, but they do it in every iteration of public service. And I was so inspired by being around those people. And I was like, there should be stories about all of them. Like, what if I was a law student and didn't know that that was a thing that I could do? So it was a very special time, I think, in, you know, I was there the first two and half years of the administration when things were far less vitriolic than I think our politics are today, 10 years later. But it really floored me. And it floored me in a, what I still consider a

positive sense of like, oh, here's a, here's a playbook of sorts in how we can actually make a difference if we use the right pressure points. You know, obviously when we work together, you know, when I got to meet you and spend some time, you know, on Big Bang Theory, like you seem like a very affable guy. Like, you're a nice person and, you know, you make eye contact. I know it sounds silly, but for people who, you know, don't spend a lot of time in these arenas, like just people making eye contact can be like, oh my gosh, this is like a person who wants to have a connection. So that was very refreshing, but even just talking to you today and, you know, getting to know you a little better through the book and through here, what, you seem very well adjusted. And I'm very, I'm happy

for you. And I guess I'm, I'm curious. Like, do you have, do you have a religious practice? Do you have a spiritual practice? Do you have a, you know, are you like a eye exercise or like, you know, here are the things that keep, like, I would imagine that you have, everybody has challenges and things, but like, you just seem to have a very kind of good disposition. Thank you. It's funny when I heard, I mean, the intro to that question is literally my experience walking into the Big Bang three, I felt that way. I'm like, oh my gosh, holy shit.

These people are all super friendly and they genuinely are like having a great time and they seem to actually like each other. And I mean, I was only on for a couple episodes. I'm like, they're welcoming us. This is, this is why. And they're like, they're on their way out. the season's done. The show, this incredible run is over. There's no need for them to be nice to us. And it was just about like really enjoying, I think enjoying the craft. I don't, I'm not particularly

religious. I mentioned how our, you know, our grandparents view of religion and faith was very secular, very inclusive. And I definitely take part of that with me where I, you know, for me, it's more of the, it's always a shame when faith is used to divide people as opposed to kind of be a respected thing that we that we learn from together. But no, I mean, I don't think there's any sort of thing like that aside from, you know, the, I don't know how hokey this sounds, but, you know, none of us know how much time we've got. And I just, I, I love to live every day doing things that I love with people I love. I love getting to know folks and talk to them and learn from them and wish the best of people who I meet unless they ask me to do stereotypical accents on Sabrina the Teenage Witch.

Jonathan, let's talk about him like he's not here. What is this person? This is funny that you're doing this because I also wanted to do talk about him like he's not here because he said that he thinks the best of people and that we're supposed to do that. It's like he's speaking a different language. He's bilingual. It's very hard to do sometimes, but it seems as though, Cal, you have actually done that where you have really incorporated this. I had a boss who did this at one point.

I was, you know, much younger, I was managing an apartment complex. And there were, like, really bad people at this apartment complex that you knew did bad things. And this manager, he just, like, at every turn, he's like, well, maybe they had something else going on. He just, like, always had this lens of positivity. And, you know, like, it made him much less stressed. Let me then interject with, I am also from New Jersey. I will fucking cut you. if I think that you've wronged me or wronged somebody who I love.

So there's, I am definitely not the Eeyore of the like, or the, the, the, the, the, like, oh, everything's fine. Oh, maybe they just had a bad day. Like, yeah, sure, put yourself in other people's shoes. But what you're describing, like, chronic manipulation of fellow humans. No, fuck you, dude. We are, we do not. You should, you should sit next to me when I'm, when I'm like, watching the news in the morning, right?

I'm a totally, it's not this person. It's not the, oh, we can all be better together person. But do you have, have you, have you ever, like, been depressed? Yes, of course. I mean, obviously everybody gets sad, but, like, have you had periods of your life where you were like, oh, this is a challenge? Like, I should go to therapy or, like, I need medication. Like, have those things ever happened to CalPet?

Yeah, look, one of the things I'm so glad people talk about so openly now than when we were in college even was like, hey, I think I need help processing something that I'm dealing with. I should, I should go see a therapist for 10 sessions. Or I should really focus on my mental and emotional health. You know, some of that for me was definitely navigating being a young performer of color and trying, you know, sort of being confused by what that was like. And that really just, I mean, what you realize now is like that merger between a love for the arts that you realize is also commerce. So how do you navigate those spaces?

But no, I definitely, I've seen therapists in the past when I thought that that was helpful. And I certainly encourage people to do it. and I'm glad there's like that that's a resource that people talk about more openly today than they did a decade ago. But I also think it's the, when I say that that outlook or that viewpoint that I try to or I, it's not that I'm assuming the best in anybody, it's that I'm trying to find what that commonality is. So the notion that, you know, it used to be that we would all think like, well, someone's political views differ from mine, but they still care about the same. same things. They want their kid to go to a good school. They want their kid to be able to go to college and live in a, you know, live in a neighborhood where they feel safe. That's actually not true, right? Like, we realized that wasn't true over the last eight years when people are voting

against education funding or saying, well, I don't want that person in my community. So I think for people who, and I put myself in this category who thought, oh, we all want the same things, it was actually quite jarring to realize that that maybe wasn't true. So I'm not, I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is that the other part of that human connection, which is what makes you happy? What makes you tick? What do you love? No matter how vitriolic or awful somebody is, I remain fascinated by what are the things that they actually love or find passion in life. I don't know if that's like a weirdness or if I'm like too empathetic or if it's the artist in me, but that's sort of one of things I love about meeting people. I am curious how do you deal emotionally when you are watching the

news when you talk about like that rage and what's happened now in terms of where we are as a country and how divisive things have gotten. Like how do you personally deal with that? Yeah. I think like most people, it kind of depends on the day. But I always try to remind myself that the systems that we live in, whether it's, you know, business or democracy or public service, a lot of them are designed to make you feel complacent to foster this complacency that allows people in positions of power to maintain that power. And it's wild how that works, right? Like, we'll turn on the news and think, well, I can't possibly help what's happening in the world. So why bother? Or, oh, I read that it's too hard to register to vote. So why bother?

You know, or any small thing even in your own community, like, oh, I'll never be able to make a difference. And it's that fostering is then a self-fulfilling prophecy. It means that we're never going to be able to do things. So I think it's accepting that you, of course, can't change everything, but the idea that we can actually make an impact in certain ways and that it's not a light switch. I think especially as the years go on and we're so used to getting all our information immediately, like I can find out what's happening in Ukraine literally right now on my phone and it will be different than when we started our conversation.

That's helpful in some ways, but it's also remarkably frustrating when you're talking about how systems can and do change. This is one of the subtext of my book is how do systems change, whether it's something like Hollywood, which I love deeply, and I so deeply love what we do as entertainers, or something like working in the federal government. There are three branches of government. They operate slowly on purpose.

You know, you're not supposed to have a dictatorship. That means that people are incredibly frustrated, especially people under 30 who don't know what it's like to live without email or digital devices where you can get access to information immediately. So I think it's just reminding myself that the system's designed to make you feel frustrated, and to have that frustration and to accept it. to work through it, but then focus on the like, what was the thing that bummed you out and what's the solution to that? There's so many people doing really great work. Like, I might be passionate

about something. It doesn't mean I need to start a nonprofit. There are fucking 100 nonprofits for the thing that I'm passionate about who already do really good work. Why don't I partner with them? Why don't I give them a hand? So that's kind of my outlook on it, I guess. You kind of caught me off guard because I wasn't, I haven't thought that through. You know, it's one of those things that's just like how do you deal day to day? And I'm just thinking about even the last couple of days how I've processed that kind of stuff. So something that was kind of missing from your book, which I actually found kind of refreshing that it didn't need to be part of the book. You don't talk really about sexuality or, you know, kind of like a lot of memoirs.

You know, like you hear about like first crash or like blah, blah, blah, or like dating. And it's not like I was like needing it. But I do think it's interesting. You've kind of talked about being, you know, sort of a late bloomer. But I guess I am curious as much or as little as you like to talk about it. You are engaged, correct? Yep. And you've been with your partner for over a decade.

This is a long relationship. You know, was that something that you've chosen kind of to keep separate from your public identity? Was it a combination of just like, it's none of your business or, gosh, what an interesting time to be a gay person who's alive? Like, I'm curious if it was part of your consciousness also as a kid or as a teenager. Definitely, yeah, no, and I appreciate that question. You know, I was not somebody who was struggling with their sexuality as a kid. And so part of it, I wouldn't say it was a conscious decision to include or exclude anything from the book. It was, but I was also mindful, like when it comes to a lot of the racial diversity pieces,

I was mindful that the story that a lot of people, a lot of people's stories with their own sexuality, or identity is not my story. And I didn't want to make it seem like their story was not important, if that makes sense. They're also phenomenal books on LGBT experiences from perspectives that deal with what I think a lot of people might be dealing with. My friend Chastin Buttigieg had a memoir that came out last year, and it's phenomenal. And he and I were talking, I was like, dude, you literally like, there's this great story in the beginning of his book about his steer, like he had a cow that he had to take care of.

He grew up in rural Michigan and just had like the dichotomy of that versus some of the sexuality that he was dealing with. That wasn't necessarily my experience, I think probably because I grew up outside of New York City as well. So there was, there wasn't, I think, the sort of stigma at the same level. But look, I also, like you said, I was a late bloomer. I kind of discovered my own sexuality relatively late in life. I think I mentioned that. that in an interview after the book came out because I was naively, I didn't think chapter 18, which where I talk about how my partner Josh and I met and we met ridiculously over like our second date. So this is when I was living in D.C. and I was supposed to, your Sundays are like the

only days that you don't really have to go into work. And so I was like, look, man, I like, I can't really hang Saturday night, but like Sunday afternoon if you want to like come over, we can have a beer and watch TV or something. So I remember he comes over, I had SpongeBob Squarepants on my TV because I'm a romantic. Yes, one does. And he comes over with an 18 pack of Coors Light

and like turns my TV onto a NASCAR race, like with no sense of irony for either things. And I was like, oh, this dude's obviously leaving in 20 minutes with like 16 of those beers because this is not how I'm spending my afternoon. And so I tell, you know, I tell the story about this like essentially second date gone wrong and then how we ended up connecting off of a conversation about NASCAR and family. And then the book comes out and I didn't, I didn't realize that there was going to be all this attention on our relationship or even my sexuality. I mean, I remember when we when we shot Big Bang Theory, like, you know, he came to a taping and I remember you and Jim were like, oh, your dude's here, which one is he? And we're like peeking out through the little pieces of the set, like the guy with the baseball high.

It's like the one on the top. I'm like, no, no, no, no, the one three rose down. Like, oh, he's handsome. Thank you very much. I know, right? But he's, so he's a very quiet, he's a quiet guy. He shies away from the limelight. He's not an actor. He doesn't have a public profession. And so when, when we started dating, I was sort of like, oh, I want to be respectful of his privacy too. And it's, it's very similar, actually, to my parents approach to my career, where they've always been super supportive. They've always met my coworkers and friends. And I've, you know, I've never, like I was hiding my parents from people. But when we would go to premiere, and it's the same with Josh when he would come to work events where there's a red carpet.

He and my parents and my brother when he's around, they do this dance where like the car pulls up. They hop out. They go through the side entrance. They're like, we're going to grab popcorn and we will see what the seats. And usually like a publicist or even me, I'll be like, can we just do like one picture like before we all go in? Like, no, no. You do whatever interviews you need to do and we'll see you inside. And so I've always respected that about him, about my parents. And so, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that maybe the perception of sharing those stories, which I'm very excited to share with people in the book, I didn't realize that there was a version of that perception that was like,

oh, unless you're talking actively about your partner, the presumption that you're deeply closeted. And I'm like, oh, well, that was also not my experience, right? And again, no disrespect to people who have struggled with that as well. But my experience has been just a lot more straightforward. Did you date women? Was there a time when you dated female people? Yeah, I dated women earlier, probably in high school and college.

And then later dated dudes. And it's funny, I remember actually when I started dating men and I thought, oh, well, what's, you know, L.A. is a tricky city to date in, period, no matter who you're dating. And I remember I've had one manager My entire career It's a wonderful guy named Dan Spillo Who especially early on really helped Now they get a lot of the

racial barriers to entry And so I remember calling him And being like, hey, so I'm dating some dudes Like what's the deal in L.A.? Like how do you date some dude? How do you meet some good dudes to date in L.A.? And he was like, well, I mean, I don't know I guess you can't really go on Craigslist.

I'm like, no, can't. It's like, this was pre-apps. He's like, you can't really do online stuff. You know, let me ask. And there was like a friend of a friend of a friend. There was a producer he knew. And he goes, why don't you grab dinner with this producer? And, you know, he's gay.

You can pick his brain. I'm like, okay, sure. So I remember this so vividly. I grabbed dinner with this producer. and he was super awkward. He was like, so I understand, do you need some advice? You have some questions for me. I was like, oh, I mean, well, I just don't like,

how do people date in L.A.? Like, it's L.A. is super awkward. Like, you know, how do I meet some good dudes? He goes, well, listen, you don't have anything to worry about. He was an older guy. I'm going to send you a list. And I was like, oh, that matchmaker right away. Like, you're just going to send me a list.

He's like, yeah, I'll send you a list. you know, of guys you might like, you know, and I'm like, well, that's wonderful. Thank you. And he goes, well, no, I mean, look, they'll do whatever you want. They're not that expensive. And they're never, they're never going to say anything. So you don't have to worry. Oh, you got connected with like the underground gay mafia.

Essentially. And I'm like, buddy, no disrespect to sex workers at all. But that's not what I'm looking for. That's not what this conversation is. This conversation is like, how do I meet it? a handsome guy to like, you know, like date properly, like go have dinner and watch a basketball game and like all the things you do when you're dating somebody. And he goes, oh, well, I don't know anything about that. All I'm saying is like, you can, you know, hire some of these guys. They'll never,

they'll never tell anybody that you're together. I'm like, this was literally why Palm Springs was built for these kinds of liaisons. Right. And so what was crazy to me, there are a million reasons why I live in New York and not L.A., but what was crazy to me about this was, I'm like, this feels so toxic. I'm not asking for advice on how to hide a part of my life. I'm asking for advice on how to have a wonderful dating life in a city where I hadn't had one before and where I'm discovering something about myself that I would like to explore. And so it was like, it was just such a bonkers like, and again, I can't imagine how many, for how many people that's their experience and maybe that's a bridge to,

figuring themselves out. Again, that wasn't my story. I sort of rejected that bad advice and was like, oh, you know, when I visit friends in New York and D.C. and Chicago, I meet great guys and I will go out on a date here or there. My question was literally, how does that work in a driving city? You know, like when you're not like taking somebody to meet. And also in, in L.A. where you can be, you know, attend anywhere in the country. And when you land here, you're a three. Like, that's just how it is. Is Josh South Asian? He's not. Did he have a bar mitzvah? He did not have a bar mitzvah. He's from a small town in Mississippi.

Wow. Yeah. So I don't know that there were any barmitsvahs happening. Not on there. I think there, I'm not even joking about this. I think the town cardiologist may have been South Asian, but that was about it. Great. Thank you so much.

It's really been a delight to talk to you. And thank you for sharing your time, your story. You Can't Be Serious is the book. Also, I'd just like to mention the advance praise. Again, I wasn't asked. Mindy Kaling Ronan Farrow Andy Samberg

Rob Grinkowski Kiefer Sutherland Tony Shalube and David Axelrod Very very impressive praise for a very impressive gentleman so really really thank you so much Mazel Tav on your engagement And we wish you only good things

I would love to say thank you to both of you This was a real treat I was looking forward to this for months Myam I really enjoyed when we had the chance to hang out in L.A. and and work together. And I've, I just, I love talking to you. I've loved this conversation. Thanks for all the love on the book. I hope people like it. There's also the audio book that you can download. And, and I love that you shouted out all the random collection of friends who were kind enough to offer a blurb on

the back. You've got some fancy friends. It's very fancy. Obviously reaching out to you for the second book blurb if you'll be waiting. And I will say no because you didn't ask me about the first one. Okay. Jonathan, I have a very serious question to ask you. Okay. Go. What are the three branches of the U.S. government? I'm only asking because you're not American. What are they? You love to put me on the spot.

You don't know. You don't have to know these things. Cal Penn knows. That's a very smart individual. Is that what people say about you? No. No. If you think you're all science-y, they think you know so many things. Then I have to tell them you don't know that many things. You just say you know a lot of things. Yeah. Anyone who likes me or compliments me,

say to them, you should talk to Jonathan Cohen. He'll tell you. Let me set you guys straight. No, I don't say that. No, I mean, I just also like, there's, there's something about that man's DNA that makes him happier than I am. Yes, absolutely.

There is 100% something genetically that he has a higher level of optimism. He has a higher level, and I'm being totally serious. Like, there are people, I'm not, people are you saying that all South Asian people? No, I'm saying that person, his threshold is just different.

It's just different than mine. Different childhood experiences, different genetic makeup, different level of programmed anxiety. Yeah, but I kind of feel like if he was raised in my house, if my parents had adopted Cal Penn, I feel like he might still be like, no, he wouldn't have a chance. He wouldn't have a fighting chance. No, I think he'd be far more anxious than he is now. He just seems really chill. I like that he gets angry at the news.

He's also, I mean, you can hear it in the book also. And I'm sure in the audio, but I did the reading version. He's very passionate. He's very intense. But he's also, he's so articulate. So, like, even when he gets upset, it's like he can lay you low with his words. Like, even about political things. Like, you get a level of that type of articulation when you're,

are surrounded by people who are speaking about interesting things and being able to be immersed in the political environment and surrounded by, as he said, all these people who are taking time away from other areas, that type of exposure definitely breeds a level of intellectual curiosity and also intelligence. I think the way he grew up, right? Just his parents, like, his parents sound very compassionate. He's very curious. Yeah. That's the other thing. And we talk a lot about how curiosity impacts our overall outlook and our overall mood. What's that? Curiosity killed the cat.

That's an American expression. Yes, I know that expression. I just didn't understand it out of your mouth. It sounded strange. There's a high, he has a high level of curiosity. He wants to know about different things. He's not totally frustrated with the fact that the systems are broken. He thinks that that's a positive thing to help, uh,

propelled change and that they're designed so that it prevents dictatorship. Like even that outlook is beneficial. I'm very taken with people like that because like there's a combination of like admiration and kind of like envy for a worldview that I really, I just like, I feel like, can't I just will myself to just be so chill? If you were around him more, you would. You have to surround yourself by like-minded people because it's a feedback. He's with a man.

He doesn't even want me. Before we went into this interview, I had a question that I really wanted to ask him, which was that does he have any future political aspirations? Now, he wouldn't have told us honestly. I could see him in a political arena, and I was going to just seed the idea that maybe you two had a ticket together somewhere. Now, you know why? Because he didn't mention the patriarchy once, and I hold that against him.

That's really what Miami-Biolics breakdown is about. It's trying to find people for our political. cadre. We're building our cabinet. The best thing about that interview for me was the story about how he was very patiently trying to convince and explain to the producer why he shouldn't do the accent. It's honestly, it's very funny in here as well. It is. And as he's telling that story, I'm thinking of every single time you and I have had a difference of opinion about anything. And my approach to that is just to explain my side more

and more and more and more, and it has never worked once. Do you have an example of when I've tried to like just double down on an explanation of why I think something should be the way it should be? No, but you and a previous person that I knew who I dated would say one of your favorite sentences, what part of that don't you understand? I'll be like, I don't understand. I'll say that I don't understand. That's your approach to trying to help me understand things. I'll say, I'm really tired tonight.

You'll say, I don't understand. And then I say, I'm not sure what there is to not understand about I'm very tired tonight. That's not true. Jonathan, that was very enjoyable. I'm glad you got to meet Cal Penn with me. I loved it. And if people want to hang out with us more, they can check out the Instagram page, Appialic Breakdown.

If you haven't already followed the show, subscribe anywhere you get podcast. and check out Myam's YouTube page. Click the little bell notification to get more. Okay, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next. It's Myamialy's Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you.

She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One, fiction. And now she's going to break down.