Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Kara Mayer Robinson: Make Order Out of Chaos

Episode Date: December 21, 2021

Kara Mayer Robinson (licensed mental health counselor, talk show host, journalist, writer, host of the Really Famous podcast) gives us tools and coping strategies to face the challenges in spending time with family, just in time for the holidays! Kara gives us practical tips for mentally preparing ourselves to deal with combative family members, including journaling, identifying triggers, and forming a reactionary game plan and exit strategy. She highlights the importance of setting healthy boundaries and following through with them, maintaining self-care throughout the holidays, and identifying toxic personalities. Mayim breaks down body dysmorphia, causes and examples of enmeshment, Narcissistic Personality Disorder, and familial triangulation. Kara Mayer Robinson's Podcast: https://really-famous.com/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's when you leave that person and you feel bad afterwards, you just don't feel good. You have a yucky feeling. It could be miserable and that's obvious. But if it's just, I don't know why. I can't even put my finger on what it is about that person. They didn't really specifically do anything. But if you feel bad afterwards, they are not the person to have in your life. Jonathan's about to hit send on an email to everyone he knows.

Not true, friends. I don't want to lose you. I'm Iambialik and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break down the things that make you break down. It's my ambiolic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. Today we're going to break down spending time with your family.

Specifically around the holidays because it tends to come up more. Is that a mental health issue, mind? Anything surrounding family, I consider a mental health issue. Even if you have a great relationship with your family, it still presents a number of challenges to who you are and what you're about. And in particular, the holidays, which are the most wonderful time of the year. For some. However, for many, this is me being Debbie Downer, The holidays are the least wonderful time of the year.

They can be. Depends on your family. It depends on your family. Well, this is actually what we're breaking down today. It depends not just on your family. It depends on you. And it depends on the tools that you have to deal with your family. And this is where our guest today, a proper psychotherapy person, Dr. Kara, Meyer, Robinson, she's going to help us.

Do you have the kind of family which has no way of making you able to enjoy the holidays? Or are there things that you can do to make holidays more healthy? You know, not just bearable. But before we get into that, let's talk about this guy. How you doing today, Jonathan Cohen? I'm doing pretty well, Ma'am. How are you? I'm okay, our Canadian catastrophe. Jonathan, let's do some housekeeping before we get started.

What should all of our breaking down friends know? The breakers, if that's what they want to be called. That's what we called people who breakdanced, broke dance. If you are listening to this, maybe you'd like to watch it. If you are on the YouTube channel, my YouTube channel, you can subscribe and click the little bell icon, ding, so that you get notifications about when we release these videos. You can also subscribe in the audio way. And oh, we have a website. Biolicbreakdown.com.

That's us. Biolikbreakdown.com. B-I-A. L-I-K. Breakdown.com, where we post all of these things, these episodes, and also resources and articles, science for lay people, all sorts of other good things relating to each episode. So go to Bialikbraytdown.com where you can also... Ask Mime anything.

Really, there's nothing off limits. Ask a question and encourage Miam to answer them on the air. Jonathan, what's the word of the day? Word of the day. The word of the day is body dysmorphia. It's actually two words of the day, and you got no set up for that. I did not know that you were going to make that the word of the day. Body dysmorphia is the term used to describe people who have a skewed and inaccurate perception of their physical presence.

And what this means is that there's nothing wrong with your eyeballs. There's nothing wrong with the mirror you're looking at or the physical lens that you're looking with. But there is miscommunication between the representation of your body and the way your brain processes it. And this is different than hating your body, which many people don't like their body. Body dysmorphia tends to revolve around a particular region of the body. For example, someone might fixate on their nose. And we're not just talking like, I don't like my nose. I want to get a nose job.

We're talking that there's not an accurate perception of what that part of your face looks like. To the point that it becomes an obsession and a fixation, it often will lead to, yes, in some cases, repeated surgeries and manipulations, But even beyond that, there's not a way to make it look right because what's wrong is the, you know, it's not the eyeballs and seeing, but the way we see ourselves. And body dysmorphia can often be treated, usually with SSRIs. So the same things that are used to treat kind of classical depression tend to help body dysmorphia. Does that mean that everyone who has body dysmorphia is depressed? No. do most people who have body dysmorphia also experience other challenges that might be of the depressive, anxious variety? Yes. It's not the kind of thing that is helpful if you have body dysmorphia for other people to tell you you look good or that there's nothing wrong with your thighs or your hair or whatever part of you. And that can also move around. Like you could be a person who like has body dysmorphia and, you know, one month it's your eyes and then it shifts. But being told you look good doesn't help.

being shown, you know, different pictures of yourself. Those things don't work. It's very, very frustrating. Why do estrogen help that? Oh, well, the brain is redundant, you know, to a certain extent. We only have so many chemicals. You know, there are pathways and deficiencies that can get activated for a lot of reasons. And one of the systems that is active in that kind of perpetuation of that kind of loop

happens to be one that is sensitive to serotonin. Yeah. that's body dysmorphia. So before we go on to an ask my anything question. Ooh, so many things. Today, Lisa from historic West Adams, we're just going to tease that we may do a second word of the day related to this episode. And it might be a meshment, something very specific for our families.

Why are you saying that we might do that? Because you might decide that you don't want to, as you do for many things I suggest. I think that since we're talking about families, in measurements probably going to come up with Kara. I would bet on it. Okay. So we're going to describe it probably in the interview with Kara. Correct. Kara.

And if we don't, we're going to get to it in a second word of the day, very special in our conclusion. But now, let's do an Ask Miami Anything. Yeah. Again, Lisa from Historic West Adams asks, I want to know if narcissism is considered a mental health illness. and if someone can be cured of it. So narcissism named for narcissists, that guy who fell into the pond looking at his own reflection, correct? That is correct.

It is a diagnosis. Like just it is it is a diagnosis. And the diagnosis is narcissistic personality disorder or NPD. And it's a problem or a tendency? They say a lot of narcissistic people get ahead in life, but they are hated often, but they're So people who are narcissists tend to be extremely self-focused and self-centered, meaning centered around themselves. And that can be a very ambitious kind of person. But the thing with people who are classic clinical narcissists is that there's often an inability to fully engage emotionally.

And interactions with these individuals can be very, very difficult. It can often feel like being ignoring. and rejected when it's really the person's lack of ability to give or consider anything but themselves. And narcissistic personality disorders is also characterized by people who really see the entire world through their lens, meaning other people's experiences also really are only relevant as they relate to them. Having a narcissist as a parent is very, very difficult. Often leaves the child feeling, you know, abandoned, neglected. Having a, a narcissist. narcissist as a partner, also very, very complicated. Narcissistic personality disorder is a

disorder. So there are differences between diseases and syndromes and disorders. And the fact is, I'm going to go ahead and say that just about anyone can change. However, the degree to which people can change may not be what you expect. And it takes a lot of time and work for someone who is a a clinical narcissist to be able to do the kind of work to not gain that diagnosis, meaning that it's a very, it is a very specific personality disorder. And that actually is an entire category of mental health challenges is personality disorders. So there's obsessive compulsive personality disorder as distinct from OCD, distinct from obsessive compulsive disorder. many other personality disorder, borderline is a personality disorder.

And I'm just going to say that things that have the moniker personality disorder, what that's telling you is that's a very deeply programmed and ingrained part of who that person is. Again, does that mean that they can't change? No. But that's going to be pushing a boulder up a hill a little bit. And there's levels to it, right? You could have a sprinkle of narcissism. Well, I mean, this is the thing.

It's like everybody's got a little bit of everything. and, you know, some people, you know, yell at their partners. Like, you're being such a narcissist. That just means that you're not doing what I want you to, right? A little bit. No, no, no. My MBialx breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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So I'm going to dedicate this episode to the memory of my great aunt, Fagie, who passed away. She was Fagie Bas-Khaeliba, Vamotia Elia. And my great aunt passed away the day before we recorded this episode. And she was in Brooklyn, and my great Aunt Fagie was my grandmother's sister. And she survived the Holocaust in hiding in Budapest as a Gentile. She was blonde-haired and green-eyed. And that was called passing. She remembered just about everything from her entire life and passed it on to her children, her grandchildren, her great-grandchildren, her great-grandchildren.

her great, great, grand children who she lived to see. And she was a really, really unbelievable, feisty, amazing, amazing woman. And when the war started, she was told by a police officer to lose her passport, which had stamped that she was a Jew. He said, lose your passport and show up when they started collecting people. Show up and say, you've lost your family. I don't know where they are, but that you're a Gentile. And that was it. She hid as a Gentile in Budapest. And after the war, she went back to the village where she and my grandmother were from. My grandmother had already escaped to America. And she met my uncle Meyer, who was also a survivor. He passed away several years ago. And they got married in Hungary. There was one wedding dress that they would pass around for all the women who survived the war. And she got pregnant with my mom's cousin, Judy. And they escaped. You still had to escape, even after 1945. And my grandmother, mother had sent her $20. That was part of the bribe that she used to get the rest of your shoulders

to get her out. And she was an unbelievable woman. And so this episode about family is dedicated to my tent to Fagie. All right. Let's talk about holidays. Tell me if this scenario sounds familiar. A holiday is coming up. And your family finds ways to create many different arguments. rounding the holiday. Like, who's hosting, who's not hosting, who's going to do the work, who's not going to do any of the work? Will this relative get drunk or stoned and make everyone feel uncomfortable? Will there be fights? Will anybody throw food or furniture? Maybe those last two are just people I know. But the point of trying to communicate is that the holidays can be very, very stressful. Really spending any time with your family can be stressful, depending on your

family, but in particular, if anyone in your family has any sort of mental health challenges, the anticipation, the expectations, and often add travel to that, add labor involved with cooking and preparing and hosting, that can add tremendous stress. And mental illness plus stress makes for a lot more problems than either of those things alone. Back in the days when people used to read magazines, magazines from about like August through January had articles about how to manage your family during the holidays. there were suggestions of like which menus require the least amount of work so that you would, in theory, be less stressed. Which menus require the most work if you'd like to avoid people and don't want to sit with them and want to be in the kitchen?

And these articles always gave me a real sense of comfort because in my family there was always some drama surrounding really every holiday. And since we're Jewish, we have two sets of holidays year round, meaning we have the normal American holidays. Although I did not grow up really celebrating Thanksgiving. my grandparents didn't celebrate it. They were immigrants. And they were like, why would you eat turkey when you could eat chicken? But Jewish holidays, you know, are kind of in duplicate from the fall on. So these articles had suggestions like avoid politics, avoid, you know, hot button topics like abortion or the legalization of prostitution. But one of the things that I would like this podcast to be is a different way to look at not only mental health, but the situations that we find ourselves in when our mental health becomes, you know, potentially problematic. So, If you have a healthy and awesome family, Mazel Tov. If you marry into or partner up with someone who has a happy, healthy family, super awesome. The chances that two people come from happy, healthy families and find each other, very, very slim.

So chances are at some point in your life, even if your family's healthy and happy, you're probably going to pair up with someone whose family isn't. For those people who are super happy, listen to what the rest of us have to deal with, is what this episode's really about. Our guest today is the host of a person. a podcast herself. Karen Bayer Robinson is a talk show host, a journalist, and a licensed therapist. What are your initials? Are you an MFT? Like, what are the, what are the, what's the acronym? I'm an LMHC, a licensed mental health counselor. There are so many, it can be confusing, but that's

what I am. Got it. And it's funny because it is funny that Jonathan is Canadian, because I tease him about how he pronounces everything. He's from Toronto. which is the East Coast, and yet he doesn't have our vowel to pronounce your name Kara correctly. What do you say? Kara. Kara. He says Kara. Oh, well, that's most of the world says that. And I get it.

Sometimes when I say Kara, I really feel like I'm really showing off my New York thing. That's right. But I appreciate it. And I called you Meyer Robinson because my older son, his Hebrew name, is Meyer. So it just rolls off the tongue, but you are Kara Mayor Robinson. That's me. You are the host of Really Famous, which is a celebrity interview podcast and YouTube channel, where you have intimate, revealing, and fun conversations with TV film and actors about life,

love, family ups and downs. One of your recent guests happened to be me, and I had a really, really wonderful time speaking with you. You can go to Really Famous Podcast.com to hear you. hear that and other episodes. I don't want to say you have the gift of gab, but you are a very clear communicator, and I really enjoyed talking to you and wanted to talk to you more. You also have written for places like The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Hollywood Reporter, and you did have a private therapy practice in New York, correct? Correct. I sure did. Did you, what were your specialties? So I mostly helped people, and by the way, can I just jump back and say, yes, you were

guest on Really Famous very recently. And it was a really great conversation for me personally, too. I really, I wasn't sure what to expect, but it was so good. It just felt like you were so open and natural and you kind of went wherever I went with you. And it was so, I think listeners will love it. So thank you. Yes, thank you for being on my show too. So, okay, my practice, yes, I mostly helped people deal with life. So the ups and the downs, the worries, the stress, anxiety, depression, problems in their relationship. A lot of it came back to just building up their self-esteem. So that sort of thing. And yeah, I did that for quite a while privately and, you know, kind of made the little transition into journalism at that point. But yes. What I wanted to sort of dive

into is especially during this unusual time in history when many of us are struggling. You know, those of us who were struggling before, many of us are struggling more because of the restrictions and the anticipatory anxiety and the fear that a global pandemic brings up and an uncertain election year and things like that. But a lot of people may be spending time with family after not spending time with anyone, really. And that's its own. you know, kind of challenge. But what I specifically wanted to talk to you about was the things that the holiday magazines never told you about how to interact with family if it's not always a positive experience. I've been reading magazines for years back when people read magazines. I read

them and it would say like, avoid politics. You know, and all these kind of like, you know, don't, you know, don't talk about abortion. Like, you know, keep it simple with your uncle, you know, whatever it was. But what I wanted to sort of tackle with you is, is the, there's five main things that I've sort of gathered. And what I, this is not a quiz. And I'm sure you can handle it even if it was. But what I wanted to do is sort of talk to you about these five things that I've been told that have really held, even if they're uncomfortable, in trying to maintain my mental health when spending extended periods of time with family. And, and, So thing number one, ready?

Yeah. Just because someone wants to have a conversation doesn't mean you have to have it. When I first heard that phrase, it was a revelation because I was raised where whatever you threw at me, I was going to, you know, I had to bat it back. And we had to have an elaborate conversation if you wanted to. Also, as a child, your parents often have conversations with you that you don't always want to be part of. but when you become an adult, you have the ability to say, I don't, I'm not available for that conversation. And learning that sentence, especially when with family who may not agree with your parenting choices, they may not agree with your breastfeeding choices, they may not agree with

who you're dating or who you're voting for, whatever it is, the notion of being able to say to someone, I'm not available for this conversation and to say it lovingly. And then the next part is that you have to follow through. Meaning if someone does not respect that boundary, it is on you to leave the conversation. And that sometimes means making everyone very uncomfortable. So can you talk a little bit, you know, just if there's anything to add or, you know, anything that sounds potentially problematic. But again, the thing is just because someone wants to have a conversation doesn't mean you have to have it. So your turn with thing number one. Sure. So you said a word that I was already thinking as soon as you started saying this. It's boundaries, right? So this is a boundaries issue.

There is no question that boundaries are a good thing, that healthy boundaries are a good thing. And that is one of the things that can get in the way of family, especially, is if one person doesn't set a certain boundary, then nobody's going to respect it because it's not a not even there. You know what I mean? So if you want your family, parents, sibling, whoever it is, in-law, whatever, you need to set that boundary for them. And so if there's nothing there, they're probably going to try to go wherever they want to go. And it's unproductive for everybody. So that's a boundaries issue. It's a good thing to set them. It can be awkward, especially if you're a people pleaser and you just want to give whoever's talking about something. You want to give them

what they're looking for. So you really have to like consciously step back and say, this is not a good idea and I'm not going to engage in this. And then you have to figure out like how to say it in a way that's not going to create more of a problem for for anybody involved. So you just say something like I totally appreciate where you're coming from, but I'm going to take a pass on this conversation. I'm going to take a pass on this topic. And just as simple as that, don't talk about it. And I think a lot of people, you make a really important point that like a lot of people don't realize that it is, it's their responsibility to set that boundary, meaning a lot of times when people complain about their family, it's all about what they're doing. She won't stop asking me this. She won't

stop talking about that. He won't give it up. But the fact is, people are going to do whatever they can to get their needs met. And that means they may want to vomit on you all of their opinions, their advice, but it's really, this is where it becomes our responsibility to take charge of our mental health and say it's not about what they want. What do I want? Right? Because it's really about setting a boundary for yourself. Yeah. You know what? That also makes me think about another point too, which is that you're right. It is up to you to set the boundaries. But also, lots of times when other people are responding to you, it's not even about you. It's about them. It's about something they're going through or some issue they have that is just showing itself on you. So sometimes it

helps to step back also and realize that, that, okay, you know what, this isn't even about me. This is their own issue and I'm not going to engage in that. So that's kind of a more advanced technique, I guess, almost, because to get to the point where you can be like, oh, okay, you know what, this is your problem, not mine. It's not always easy to spot that. But once you realize it, it can make things a lot easier, especially with family. That's detachment. Am I right? Yeah, that is. Because I don't mean to throw all these fancy terms, but it's fun to talk to someone who knows

them. Like, other people may be projecting, right? They may be projecting their own issues on you, and it's on you then to detach and say, it's not mine. Jonathan, tell us what sounds wrong about this so that we can fix it. I'm thinking about the listener who may be following along the, conversation and maybe they're a little bit new to some of this terminology. They're like, I've kind of heard about boundaries, but I don't 100% know.

And their experience might be, you know what, I end up in these conversations that I don't know how to extract myself from. I don't really know that they're going wrong when they're going wrong. And I end up just feeling gross or drained afterwards or I'm stuck. And so, like, what are the strategies? Because it's easy to say have boundaries, but I think a lot of people, and I'm making an assumption here. So listeners who don't have this, let me know if I'm wrong.

But you kind of just all of a sudden are like, that just feels awful or you feel stuck or you just don't know what to say. And so how do you deal with the potential for that? Okay. That's a great question. And you're so right. Forget the terminology. Forget the technical terms. Let's just put it in plain and simple terms.

One of the things to do is to prepare yourself, mentally in advance. So, like, you have to know what your patterns are with your family. Like, okay, this is what happens all the time. And don't predict it just so that you can get all tied up and knots about it, but really try to, like, step back and say, what do we do? Like, what happens with my family all the time? What is, what do we always end up fighting about? Or why do I always feel a certain way? Do I feel like a child again? Or whatever it is that you know is going to upset you. You can kind of plan ahead for that. And so, So if you know, like I say in therapy, that insight is half the battle.

So once you get that insight into your own behavior or other people's behavior, it's like suddenly things become clearer and then you can manage it a lot better. So what I would do is before a family gathering, like sit down and say to yourself, okay, what is probably going to happen here? And how am I going to handle it? So you can go in and there are a bunch of strategies you can use that you can go into, that gathering with. If you'd like those, I can give you those two. Well, I was just going to say shout out for therapy because, you know, it's like we keep, you know, trying to get to the

root of this, right? Okay, so learn what a boundary is. Learn what the triggers are. But how do you learn those triggers? Usually through processing with someone else, right? Like that's, like, how do you, some people don't even recognize the patterns. I didn't recognize the patterns until I started to really examine them. Every dinner seemed to end with me storming off, throwing something. or someone leaving the house, like I couldn't figure it out. You need a cheat sheet of lines too so that you don't have to storm out.

And I don't know where that cheat sheet is. I've sort of developed mine over the years, but how does someone starting out or maybe is in the experience that Miami is talking about who it all kind of goes awry in a moment, no matter how much they try to hold it together during the dinner or lunch or gathering, what are the lines to get yourself out of those?

I'm going to jump in before you answer, and I'm going to say that in my personal experience, that's a quick fix solution. Like what are the lines to say? For me, I had to recognize what I was doing and where I was playing a part because almost everything that annoyed me, especially when I was younger and before I had a lot of therapy under my belt, almost everything that annoyed me that I ended up yelling about, throwing something over or storming out about was me minding business that was not mine to mind. Meaning, I'd go to my parents. I wouldn't like the way my mother was speaking to my father. I wouldn't like the way my father was handling a thing at work,

like things that my name was not even in the sentence. And it would lead to the only kind of interaction that I knew how to have with them, which was like this. You know, it was confrontation. So for me, it's not even so much about like how do you get out of it. It's how do you stop getting into it. But I'll let you, I'll let you take that. That is a big yes, because it is more of getting to the root cause rather than putting a bandaid over it. So sometimes you need a bandaid. You don't want to bleed all over the place. So that's useful too. And you want to have your lines. But I would say also in advance, yeah, like journaling is a good thing. If you aren't in therapy, you can, you can. can do this at home by yourself before you go wherever you're going to go and say, okay, what happened the last time I was with my family? What upset me? What was the thing that made me storm off? What was the thing that got really my skin crawling? Like, what was it? And then you those are triggers like you're saying before. That's how you recognize your triggers. So figuring out what your triggers are is really a good step to take before you're in that

situation because you can head it off before it happens. At the same time, you do know, if you can predict, like I was saying before, what your family is going to do that's going to trigger you, they're probably going to do it. So you do want to be prepared with, well, how am I going to handle it? So sometimes you may just be able to talk about it or whatever it is, but other times you'll want to, like I said before, take a pass. And the kind of line for that would be like, I appreciate what you're talking about. I understand. But sometimes I feel upset if I talk about it. So I'd rather not talk about it today. And so the key there also is to use eye statements they're called. So you talk about things that you personally are feeling or

experiencing rather than saying, you make me mad when or I can't stand it when, well, this is really an eye statement, but it's not, I can't stand it when you, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you don't want to be you, you, you, it's not going to be productive. So not only isn't, I'm not good for that person, but that's not why I'm giving this advice. It's for you, you're only going to get yourself in a worse situation if you have like a combative beginning to it. So take that eye and use those eye statements. I'm afraid if we talk about this, I'm afraid I'm going to feel upset and feel like I need to leave. And I don't want to do that. I'd rather just stay here and, you know, enjoy the day. So it's those I statements that I would probably come in with. And another good idea is like have a buddy.

You know, the buddy system is always good. So whether you have a buddy who's going to be with you, if it's in person or somebody at home, if it's on Zoom, because I guess these things can happen on Zoom too. Oh, yes, they can. On whatever holiday you're celebrating this year, you may be having it on Zoom. So you could have a buddy who you talk to ahead of time and say, I know I'm going to be upset. I don't want to. I don't want to repeat these patterns. breathe and then ask them to be your helper. So you may need to reach out to them in the middle of it. You'll talk to them beforehand. You'll know that afterwards you'll be able to unload it all and get it off your chest. So buddy is another good system. I love that. This leads me to thing number two.

You ready for the next one? Yeah. So this is one that came up when I was a new mother. we were a breastfeeding family. We were an exclusive breastfeeding family. And there were certain people in my family who really didn't appreciate me breastfeeding, which is their prerogative. But thing number two involves that. And also almost the number one thing that people complain about is when they stay with their family and it's a disaster. Meaning, remember when people left their houses and went and did things? I feel like every single human I know who has a difficult family, this has

been the crux of their issue is when I stay with them, everything falls apart. And it relates to the breastfeeding one because thing number two is what other people think of you is none of your business. That means if I can remove from my concept of myself and existence that you don't like what I'm doing, whether it's breastfeeding, whether it's staying at a hotel for my sanity, I get to still have an interaction with you if I'm not constantly trying to convince you that I'm right or that you shouldn't think what you think. So the notion that if I, I mean, I've said to so many friends like, why do you still stay there? Well, they'll be insulted if I don't. And that's, you know, I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

So what I always say is, and how well is it working to not hurt someone's feelings when you then have a miserable time. and it ends up terrible. That is why God made hotels. That is why you can and should, when possible, adjust your plans so that you can spend time with family in ways that don't involve you becoming obsessed with convincing them that you're right about even where to stay. So thing number two, now it's your turn. What other people think of you is not your business,

meaning when they have judgment about you or don't like something you're doing. Right. Okay. So first let me jump in with the hotel situation. Yes. I mean, even if you have, I guess it's not the case if everybody's just so harmonious all the time and it's very rare that there's some kind of a disagreement or anything. But even if your relationship is good, you know, staying more than one day, let's say. I mean, personally, I've had relative stay with us before who, you know, are wonderful and we have a good. We have a good. good time, but it's like, you stay a little bit too long. It's just what they say about fish, right? So a guest, a house guest are like fish after a couple days, it starts to smell. So it is that kind of thing. We're like, I think you are kind of asking for trouble, especially if you have a contentious relationship with your family. So stepping back is good. It's so interesting that you said, it's none of my business, because sometimes one of the questions I actually would like to ask people is, what, and I did ask you this, what is the image that other people have,

of you. So how do you think other people see you? And quite a few people have said to me, it's none of my business how they see me. So that's exactly what you're saying right here. But it's interesting to me that phrase, it's none of my business. And I get it. But to me, it kind of feels a little bit like I might tweak it a little and say, who really cares what they think of me? You know, like you might be interested because you're a human and it's normal to be curious about what other people think about you. And it's natural. We're so creatures. So like part of us does want to see, well, am I okay? Am I doing the right thing? Does my group accept me? That's natural. But you have to get beyond that because we are also individuals

and you have to know that that could backfire. So yes, I think that concerning yourself with what other people think of you is a recipe for disaster, especially if you're a people pleaser. So yeah, I'm going to say yes to that. None of your business. None of your business what, if they agree or disagree with who you are or what you're doing. Jonathan, what do you, I don't know. I know a bit about your family, but not a lot. But I'm sure you know people who are in the situation I'm describing where they're miserable staying with their family, even if it's a good situation.

It's like they don't like the way they feed you or whatever it is or the kid is loud. But the notion of staying at a hotel to some people is so distasteful. even if they're, even if you have to sacrifice your sanity, why do people still do it? Do you know what I'm talking about, Jonathan? Sometimes just staying at a hotel for some people is just not a financially viable option. Okay, fair enough. You have to travel, you have to get there. Holidays are expensive, just not practical.

Are people being masochists? Like, I think that people feel this obligation. Like, I have to stay with them. We're so concerned about offending someone. Right. And the repercussions of that offense, especially if you have a family who will retaliate, meaning, oh, you wouldn't stay with me.

Oh, you're so thankful for coming over for lunch, but I don't want to keep you too long because I know you don't want to be here. Right. It can sometimes feel like you're making it worse, you know. How do you deal with the conflict of family if you assert a boundary, especially if you've never asserted a boundary before? And now all of a sudden you're this radical person who has,

Doesn't want to talk about things. Look who thinks he's too good to stay here? Who doesn't want to talk about stuff? You're so secretive now. Are we even close? You're too good for the family? How do you navigate some of the backlash that might come from basically just having a boundary about having some separation? So I would head that off.

That is a good point. I would head that off at the beginning and show them and say, it's not you, it's me kind of thing. So I would say something. Yes, another an eye statement and say it's. It's not you. It's me. So this year, I hope you don't mind. We've decided to get a room or stay here or whatever because and just tell them why.

It's not about them. It's about, I mean, you can make up an excuse if you really think it's going to set something off. You can say, you know, I have allergies this year. Whatever it is that's going on. Like, I really shouldn't be telling you to lie. Yeah. No, I'm not a fan of lying.

But a broader way to explain it is something like the place I'm at in my life right now, I feel like this is what I need to maintain my sanity. Yeah, and it doesn't even have to be about the family. Like, well, I'm getting in a routine. I'm really in like kind of starting new things for myself this year. And this is going to help me do it. It has nothing to do with the family. It's just what I would like to do for myself. So, and then you can offset it by making sure that you do enough with the family. So you're definitely, you're not, if you're staying in a hotel, let's say, like, you're not going to avoid the family. So make sure that you do spend the time, make it quality time, show that you love them and want to be with them in a different way.

You know, whatever it is that you like to do it during the holidays, like maybe bring that or bring a game or something like that to show them, oh, I did think about this and I am excited to be here. Before we go on to thing number three, I'm not even to let you respond, Kara. That still doesn't work for a lot of types of people. And I think Jonathan and I, we call ourselves like cousins from neighboring villages in Poland. Like that doesn't always work. But what I've found is that there's a larger balance.

setting, you know, and kind of revision that needs to happen with certain families. And often the where do you stay is just one part of what can make this either problematic or good. I just want to be the voice of the people who are like, these are great suggestions theoretically, but if I do them, there's going to be chaos. And that's another thing also is that sometimes there is chaos because when a machine is working a certain way and you change one part of the machine, the rest of the machine can get very, very upset. One might think I'm speaking from personal experience. It can be very upsetting.

And I think another like general concept is like, this is not the last holiday on the planet. I mean, the way this year has gone, this could be the last. But no, but also like the entire relationship of a family is rarely predicated on one night. It's rarely predicated on one fill in the holiday. So it's a process. But yes, healing a family can be very difficult and complicated. And just to acknowledge the people out there who are listening to say, my family, none of this would work for whatever reason. Sure.

Not to diminish any of this advice because it is very good advice. But just to give those people a voice. We hear you. Not that it's my family. No, we're not talking about our voice. You know, if you are staying with the family, you can also have exit strategies. Correct. So if you're staying there, take breaks.

Correct. Head out. Yes. Do it. Which leads to thing number. three, which is what a lot of people want to do, thing number three is don't numb out. So escape strategies are important. Separate time is important, knowing when to say, who, I'm going to turn in is important. Drinking excessively, taking drugs, even eating excessively. Those things

don't always make situations better. Tell us about it, Kara. Yeah, that is like four. Sure. I'm going to absolutely applaud you for that one. That's only going to make things worse. So it may feel like, yeah, that's that band-aid, but it's really not a good band-aid. It's the band-aid that's going to fall off and then it's going to be a gusher underneath. So yeah, that is not a good idea. What's a better idea is to throughout the holiday season, take good care of yourself. So like whatever self-care you're doing normally. This is thing number four. You did it. Oh. Uh-oh. I'm skipping ahead. Okay. Thing number four, take care of you. I wrote, just because you're on holiday, don't stop the things that have been helping you stay healthy. If you go to therapy, do a phone session. Yes. Like, it doesn't have to be, if you normally go once a week, it could be every other week. Like, don't stop. You know, check in even by text or by email if your therapist does that. Like, continue to meditate. Continue to exercise. Anything that helped get you there in one piece is needed to keep you in one. piece. So thing number three, do not numb out, goes into thing number four. Do all those eat well.

Like, of course, have a good time and eat the things that you like to eat. But if eating is something that regulates your body, your digestion, your mood, don't give it up. Right. You are going to feel better that day or those days that week. Whatever it is, you're going to feel better if you're taking care of yourself the whole time. So for sure, don't skip those therapy sessions. If you're taking medication, do not miss a dose of the medication, everything you need. And even if it's things like, oh, I regularly like to meet up with a friend for coffee or now with the pandemic, it's, you know, talk on the phone. Do that more of that. All those things that help you feel good are going to help you deal much better. That's maintenance. Awesome. Yeah, that's maintenance. It's super

important. And like the day after a thing, go for a hike or something. Like if you can, if you're physically able and you have a place where you can go safely, do that. You know, something that's going to continue you and get you right back on that feeling good thing is really a good idea. I love that. I also feel like, don't feel guilty either about like, oh, the holidays, you know, all these cookies or all this food or whatever is. Like, all right.

Don't go overboard. But at the same time, like try not to feel guilty about that kind of thing. But, you know, I'm not saying binge on all these unhealthy foods. But yeah, yeah, have a little bit. Enjoy it. Right. And remember all. all the other maintenance that you've been doing all along, keep up with it.

And also, you know, super shout out. I have a lot of friends who are in AA, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous, Al-Anon, which is the program for people who love an alcoholic, overeaters Anonymous. Like, those are programs that now exist online. So if that's part of your self-care, do not let up when you're with your family. Because the reason people end up in those rooms is because they need support. And that doesn't end just because you're on vacay. So especially now with all these and whatever other resources people are using, use those things

because they come more in handy, you know, when you need that kind of extra support. Okay. Another form of support that you may not realize is your family. So you may actually be visiting somebody or seeing somebody who you don't see that often, who has been supportive to you before. like try to have some time some special like one-on-one time with that person and it may actually enhance the whole thing and give you the support that you need. Yeah, I have double down on the good family.

Or sometimes, you know, friends who happen to be in town, when some people go to Toronto, there's old friends that are like a really core part of certain people's lives. And like that's important too. And a lot of times it's so hectic with the holidays and you have all these family obligations. but that's a really important thing. You know, my friend Jasmine lived in San Francisco, my whole life. We've been friends since we're 11. And whenever I'd go up to see my family in San Jose,

I would always make a point before I could drive. My parents would take me into the city. And just to be with like that friend who really, really got me. And back in those days, we wrote letters every week. For years we wrote letters to each other. But this was my friend and we would just do small things. We'd get a cup of tea. we'd go to the Japanese baths.

And that would fill up. It would fill me up so much that it made other things more tolerable. And right now it's my beloved cousin Rebecca, who we've only seen each other, we haven't seen each other at all since the quarantine. And like, that's my person. And everybody in our family knows that when we get together, Rebecca and I get like one walk alone,

where we leave the kids. And like, she's like a sister to me. And if I don't have that, it doesn't feel right. I love that. That's a great point. Yes, John. But this is a really good point because when I would go back to Toronto, sometimes I wouldn't go for months or months at a time or even a year at a time.

And then I would try to see everyone on that trip. And I wouldn't get great time with anyone because I'd be so fractured and it felt like I was holding office hours. People would be coming over. And then there would be conflict with cousins. Like, why are we coming to see you? Why don't you come up to our neighborhood? No, the answer is go home more.

That's what Kara's going to say. So I think there's something around priority. the time that you have, be realistic if you try to see everyone. Ultimately, it will probably feel pretty chaotic. Yeah, equality over quantity. Know your people, know the ones who make you feel good, spend that time and avoid the toxic people. Don't just say, okay, I got to meet this one because of... I love that. That, this literally took me well into my 30s until I figured it out. if people, if after spending time with people, I feel worse than I did before I saw them, it doesn't mean they're a bad person and they may not even be toxic in a clinical setting,

but that's not right for me. And like, I'm a born people pleaser. So if someone, again, wants to have a conversation, wants to see me, I feel like I have to. And also just, you know, first world celebrity problems. I'm always nervous that if I don't see people, they'll say, oh, because she's so, she thinks she's so famous now. Shouldn't have time for me. But I think it's a universal notion, if you're a people pleaser, of like wanting to say yes, but it's not, it doesn't help anyone. It doesn't help my kids

because I have less patience with them. It doesn't help my partner. It doesn't help the rest of my family who I come home all agitated because like I had to listen to that person who's not healthy. Anyway, we talked about boundaries. We talked about strategies. We talked about how we can be healthier. And I've heard a lot, you know, oh, you're probably. problem with that person is just, you know, if you work on this part of yourself, you won't have a problem with that person. And if you just do your work, and actually, they're just mirroring for you all the things that you haven't dealt with. At what point and maybe how do you evaluate, is a person really toxic and you should avoid them? This really should have been the last question. Maybe point

number five should go away. This is a great question. And Maya, I'm so glad you brought it up. And Jonathan, that is the perfect question to follow up with that. And that's something that is It's actually kind of easy to know because you do need to figure out who those people are. And you said it actually. You figured it out, my own. It's when you leave that person and you feel bad afterwards, you just don't feel good. You have a yucky feeling. It could be miserable and that's obvious.

But if it's just, I don't know why. I can't even put my finger on what it is about that person. They didn't really specifically do anything. But if you feel bad afterwards every time or most times you're with them, they are not the person to have in your life and you have to really step back. You don't have to completely remove them if they're in your circles and you can't avoid them entirely, but just don't even spend the time to engage. Jonathan's about to hit send on an email to everyone he knows. And I think it's unfair. Not true, friends. I don't want to lose you. No, I'm not talking. I was just kidding. But I think what's

also important. So yes, and if you are talking about interactions with people in your life, with whom you have a long contentious history, specifically a history in theory of resentment, of anger, of shame, you are also not in a place to receive what they are giving, even if they're trying to be in a different mindset than the one you think they're in.

Meaning, if you have so much anger and resentment that when you spend time with someone, you cannot even see any potential for a shift in the relationship, then the fact is what you said, Kara, is still true. That is not a person to spend time with. But it doesn't mean that there isn't work for you to do to start to release and understand your resentment, your anger, your shame,

so that there may be possibility to find positive aspects of that relationship. This is where I was going. She was impressed with it. what I said, and you didn't even let her say that. Oh, so hold on. Myam needs some validation. I do. Okay. All right, Jonathan, hold on one second. Maya. Brilliant. I mean, I wasn't looking for brilliant, but it's true. You can't just write people off and say they're toxic. You may have so much resentment that you can't even see their pain. That is to hurt people hurt. That is so true. But there also are people who just by themselves have their issues that don't belong to you.

Correct. And if you're relating to them or you're trying and you're approaching them fairly and happily and then you still feel bad, that's a toxic person. Correct. And it's not yours. Correct. But if you are unable to separate your need to fix that person from who they are, you're going to feel really crappy when you leave them because they're pain. has become yours. And that's on you to learn. I mean, we're nearing codependency conversations also. Because I can't make my sanity dependent on you being okay. Because some people will never be okay.

And we love them anyway. But it's really more about how much and what kind of time can I spend with someone who's not okay. I mean, there's people in my family who choose not to get help. and they're very difficult to be around. Does that mean that I can't be around them? No, it means I need to be very specific with the activities we do, the things we talk about, how much time I spend with them, and what expectations I have. If I have zero expectations, I'm always pleased. Expectations are important to that.

That is another good point that you've stumbled into. Their planned disappointments is what they are. Yeah. But also, it is true that if your reaction is outsized compared to what you're, you're not sure, to whatever they're doing, then it's yours. So that's another way to, you kind of have to ask yourself, well, who is it? Is it them? Is it me or is it both of us? I mean, that's really the first question. So when I'm talking about toxic people, it usually is that their reaction is clearly taking over from what you're doing. But if you're the one having the anger and the resentment and it's really,

really eating you up inside, you really do need to take a look at yourself and say what it's going on for me. Like, why am I reacting like this? Obviously, it means a lot. And doing that work of trying to figure it out will get you very far. So that's really the step. I love that. So first of all, Jonathan, everyone loves you. Absolutely not true. You took away point five, but I don't think we needed anymore because that was such a beautiful point. Well, the little phrase was be of service, meaning it is a wonderful way to dispel anxiety and potential problems at family events I have found if you find out what you can do to be helpful. And it both allows you to not be part of the eye of the storm, if there is one, but it also allows you to realize that every situation has a potential

for you to contribute something and for you to be part of making something good. And you then have the ability to leave the table and be like, oh, time to clean up plates. It gives you an ability to physically leave. And also, I have found, when I give of myself, I get more than I give. Because it is. It's a way to connect in a different way. And especially if you have a difficult situation, I do this even not at family events. If I'm, I have social anxiety, going new places, going places is hard, especially new places. And what I'll often do is I'll go to whoever, whoever's hosting or whoever's in charge and I'll say, hello, my name is Mayam, how can I be helpful? She's excellent at washing dishes. I love washing dishes. But also I love washing dishes because

it also gives, it makes, you know, idle hands are the devil's workshop, keeps my hands busy, keeps me from standing by the bar and drinking, which I will do if hard pressed because it's a thing to do and that's not a solution, you know, for me. So being of service is something that I think is a really important way, like I said, to add to the event and also to give yourself the ability to not have to get involved with every single conversation. And I didn't used to want to be that person. I wanted to be chatting with everybody. I wanted to hear all the gossip. I want to hear that. And then I finally said, you know what? It doesn't feel good often, especially if you have a gossipy family. It doesn't always feel good to hear that when you've reached a certain level of

like psychiatric and psychological self-awareness. So it doesn't always feel good to be part of that. And so it allows me to do the things that I am good at, which is to be of service to others. And yes, I'm a balabusta. I am an owner of the home, as we say in Yiddish. I love making order out of chaos, which is really what cleaning is. A balabusta. I haven't heard that in a long time. And I grew up with that term that was used around my house all the time.

That should be the word of the day. She's a real balabusta. She's a balabusta. It's a good thing. Also, what can happen when you do that? When you actually go in and you get involved and you're helping with dishes, you're cooking things, you're serving things, whatever it is you're doing, you will actually possibly bond with the people who are doing it with you.

So I used to host Thanksgiving. I say used to because this is the first year I'm not. There were a couple of years when my son was born and whatever else, but we would have like 20-something people over. It's a lot of people in the house and not a huge house, but a lot of people knew just to get in there and start making sure that this is being unwrapped. heated up. Everybody brought food. I didn't make it for everybody. My husband didn't cook for everybody, even though he likes to cook. Everybody had something to do, so they were a little invested in it as well.

And you know, I'd be washing dishes with my two cousins who I hardly ever see. You know, I would probably not hang out with them on a regular basis, but on Thanksgiving, I'm with them. Right. And guess what? They're drying the dishes. The other one's washing the dishes. You'll learn a lot about someone doing dishes with them. Yeah. And then suddenly we're having a great time and we're bonding. So it could happen. Okay. I'm going. glad I kept point five in. I'm glad I kept thing number five in. You both brought up two points that I want to circle back to.

The most recent one is you brought up triangular conversations. What do you mean? You were saying when you're washing dishes, maybe you're not going to be gossiping or hearing what this person said about that person, said about this person. And I think it was only, I don't remember when I learned about it. You mean triangulating? Triangulating. Triangular conversations is triangulating, where you're reacting.

what someone else said someone said about you, which leads into number four. But often when you don't see people for a very long time, you may not be like eye statements or sharing experiences. You're like, oh, I was talking to this person and they said this, that, the other thing. I think that's a very fast way to get into misinformation. Ah, okay. So just, and you have another question too? I do.

This is a good one. I mean, I'm going to play with your words a little bit. And maybe Kara also wants to play with your words a little bit. One of the things that can happen in unhealthy families is something called triangulation, where people are recruited to forward their own personal agendas, often at the expense of other people. Because everything is a test. Okay. Relax over there. I know. Everything is a test. I know. Are we talking about Toronto?

Well, but I think what I've noticed is that a lot of times this is, I just got to emotional, and I'll tell Kara why. My Tantafagy passed away yesterday. She was 99. And we have dedicated this episode in her honor. She died in Brooklyn. She lived in Ocean Parkway, and she was an unbelievable woman, and she survived the Holocaust hiding as a Gentile in Budapest. Like, unbelievable story, unbelievable woman. And when we got the news, what came in a couple conversations I had with my mother, This was her beloved aunt. This was the matriarch of our family. It was my grandmother's only full sibling who survived the Holocaust,

meaning the other siblings were all lost. And what started happening, and this is with all due respect, I will not name names, to everyone in my family and their grief process. What came from my mother was like, why didn't this one tell that one? She said I shouldn't tell this one. And what about this? And women won't be allowed. It's my Hasidic family.

Women won't be allowed at the grave. And what I realized was, oh, this is more comfortable than just feeling this feeling. And what that feeling is is grief and it is sadness. And it's not for me to take away my mother's denials, anyone's denial. Denials a protective mechanism. But what I said to my mother was, my, I really don't want to focus on that. How are you? What can I do for you?

And especially during the quarantine, we don't even, we've always. only spent like 30-second periods indoors with each other. Me and my mother were very, very conservative. I hugged her today for the first time in eight months because my Tantafagy's body is on a plane to Israel right now to be buried. And like that sadness cannot be taken away, but you can distract yourself from it. And that's what I've noticed that gossip serves and triangulating serves in families. instead of dealing with it's hard to be together or in my family, this person's not doing well, there's a divorce.

We don't talk about that this person committed suicide. You know, whatever it is, if we can start chepping at each other and we can start that kind of, you know, it dispels it. But it's not ultimately the way I want my kids to see family interactions. And I stopped my mother a lot. My mother's one in a different time. Everybody was critical. Everybody, like, that's how they communicated. generation. And I try and say to my mom like, we'll talk about that later, not in front of the

boys. In front of the boys, let's talk about the positive things or I change the subject. Kara, your turn with triangulation and gossip. Okay. So so much here. I'm sorry about your aunt, first of all. That's so, oh, 99. 99. 99 she was. It's amazing. 99. And what a life it sounds like she had. I mean, yes. Yeah, the gossip and that's so very common in families. And you're not necessarily going to change it. But look what you did. You used your eye statements and you put up your boundaries and you got out of conversations that you didn't want to have. And especially your good excuse was let's not talk about that in front of the boys. Like, yes, all of that, you handled so well. And also not to say, why do you always gossip, which is what I used to do?

Why you have to be so critical? Why are you got to talk like that? Who cares? That's what she wants or whoever wants to do. But you're right. It's the I statement. It doesn't feel good when we talk like that. I don't like that. Doesn't feel good for me. Yeah, exactly. So you did it successfully. But that is a pattern, and it's a very normal, common, common pattern in families. And that's how people think they're bonding is by like, oh, let's throw the common enemy,

you know, under the bus. And then, oh, look, a common enemy, now we're besties. So it is what tends to happen, but it is not productive. Chances are, especially with older members of your family, you're not going to change them. So you have to figure out how you want to handle it, how you want to react to it. But some family members may be open-minded to it. So it depends on who you're dealing with. Like some people would actually listen possibly if you wanted to say, oh, you know what?

I feel like this isn't really helping right now. Can we try this? And, you know, maybe one of your family members would be like, oh, you know what? You're right. I never even thought to do that. You want to know what you usually get, though, in my family when you do that? Oh, excuse me. Look who thinks she's so good.

Oh, she can't go. Oh, excuse me. Oh, you're so pure. Oh, I heard you talking about so and so. other day that, oh, look at you. Oh, fancy. You moved to the big city. This is what happens. That is the more likely reaction. You know who I'm talking about. That's what happens. Every family is succession. That's right. My family is a very, very peasant version of succession. Jonathan, what was your other question for family therapy with Kara? Well, I think we're also covering it, but the term

ameshment, when you were speaking about how do you be around someone who is not okay without trying to fix them, without trying to tell them what not to be. So, for example, saying, I hate when you do this is not, is an I statement, but not a productive one. Or you are always criticizing me. I don't want to be criticized is half of an I statement. But how do you exist? Or are there strategies? Finish your sentence. How do you exist when, when what? When someone else is not okay. I got to take this first. I go first. I don't finish sentences. I just let her, I just tee it up enough so she can run with it. Okay, you're actually asking three things. How can I be okay when someone else is not? Technically, you started that conversation, but I'm just following it up.

Now you're blaming. That's the fourth thing. Now, how can I be okay when someone else is not is actually the codependency? There are coda meetings for that. So that's, also a meshment. Okay, no, so hold up. What's the difference between a measurement? I'm about to get there. The difference between a measurement and codependence. Shut his mic. Someone shut his mic. So how can I be okay? So how can I be when someone else is not, that's codependency. And that does run through a lot of unhealthy families. Absolutely. The notion of enmeshment, which is more of a clinical term, we haven't asked my am anything where you can ask me anything. And the question today was about narcissistic personality disorder. And this is a beautiful example. Inmeshment happens when the, usually,

usually, the parent does not make a distinction between themselves and their child to the point that the child is seen as a literal extension of themselves. And what that means is if my child's doing something I don't like to the person who's typically a narcissist, it feels like they've done the bad thing. So their reaction is such that they will do anything they can to make you stop doing that or change doing that because it hurts them as if it's them. So even though we like to say like, oh, narcissists, they're so this, they're in deep, deep pain. That is a deep crisis. That process is an example of enmeshment. And this is something you also see in families often with alcoholism or with other isms or mental health that goes untreated. You get this notion of there is no

separation you often get with enmeshment like us against the world. Nobody understands us. Keep our secrets. No one needs to know. That level of enmeshment can be very, very toxic. But it also, it works both ways because when the child is free of that is often when the child starts to experience a need to return to all of those unhealthy behaviors because it's what everyone knows is natural. And we do take the path of least resistance as humans, as animal, the animals that we are. So I do think it's important to how can I be okay when you're not okay. That is a separate episode. That is codependency.

But let's turn it over to Kara and see how I did with enmeshment, which I did combine with narcissistic personality disorder. It doesn't have to be, but it's a great example, I thought. Okay. Okay. And like a million things to break down. But let me see what I can do here. First things first.

Yes. So we're really talking about, we're talking about something that needs a little more help than, you know, a tip or two or whatever, something you can try out during the holidays. Because if we're talking about that kind of enmeshment, it really is a therapist can help much more because it's an individual situation that needs to be really looked at and talk through on a deeper level. I'll take it a little bit, like I'll lessen it a little bit back to kind of what you were saying, Jonathan, about like, how can I be okay if you're not okay? And if you're you're not fully enmeshed in that way, then, but you're just like, you want to help and you want

this person to do better. And let's say she has bipolar disorder or something, or let's say a drinking problem or something's going on and you want to help. And you can try to help to some degree, but you can't, it has to be a boundary again. We're coming back to boundaries. So you have to know that you are not single-handedly going to be able to fix her problems for her. Love that. You are no one's messenger. Right. Yeah. But you can offer. love and support. And she or he may or may not take you up on it. And that's okay. As long as you know you're offering it, but you're within a boundary, that's the best that you can do. And if that person

knows that they're loved and supported and there is a person there for them, who they love, who will help, that's a lot. There's a lot of value in that. I do want to give a shout out that if you do have a problem with someone else's drinking or drug use, the reason that pro like Al-Anon and codependence Anonymous exist is because what can change relationships is when you change. Meaning, a lot of times the things that we think we are doing to help other people so that they'll be okay can actually make it worse and can deepen the problems for the relationship in general. So if you find yourself ruminating, obsessing, spending most of your time thinking about someone else's problems, when one finger's pointing that, that way, three of them are pointing back at you, that's time also to get some help for yourself, either through therapy or through these kind of support groups that are free and also available

online. So I just had to give a shout out to that because, I mean, a lot of people spend their time trying to fix other people, and it usually just takes away from you keeping the focus on yourself. Kara, I thank you so much for what essentially was Miami and Jonathan try and survive the holidays. That's what this episode was. I think you guys are going to be okay. This was great. You had such good questions and such good points and such good examples. Thanks for having me. Take care and be well. Thanks, Kara. Well, that was fun. I need a nap. That felt like therapy. For those of you who have never been to therapy, that's therapy like five years in when you've really decided to open up to your therapist.

It's a little crowded for therapy. Says you. It was group therapy. It was great. I mean, that's exactly what I was hoping, you know, that she would want to get into. And it was, I didn't want her to feel like I was putting her on the spot, but those are the things that I've learned, you know, in the last 15 years, like since leaving my parents home, these are the things that it took me a good portion of those 15 years to kind of get to. But it's made for a lot more pleasant interactions in my family. You know, my relationship with my parents when I left home, I don't want to say it was bad,

but in terms of how it made me feel, did not make me feel good at all. and over the course of starting to implement these things with consistent, I don't always do it perfectly. You know, I was able to spend time with my father, bless his memory, before he died in ways that were meaningful and valuable and didn't involve conflict and fighting. My children got to have relationships with my parents that didn't involve the kind of things I witnessed as a child with my grandparents.

Usually gets better as further generations. Sometimes. So one point of clarification. Oh, yes. On the emmeshment or how do you exist when someone else is not okay? She took it from the don't try and fix other people, but you also have an interest in a different aspect of that. Exactly. If you're not trying to fix them, but they are just...

Then what's the point of seeing them? And they're just listing their problems at you or to you. And maybe you have a family member who is just every single month, every single week, they're just a one type of conflict, trauma, issue after another. What are the strategies? And I have some answers here, but I'm curious your thoughts. What are the ways to still, you know, not shut down entirely, still be able to engage with someone who is basically just like everything is some form of catastrophe? I mean, the true psychological answer is that when the roots are deep, you have no reason to fear the wind.

How do you grow your roots deep? Ah, that's a beautiful question. How do you grow your roots deep? Rigorous honesty and soul searching. Okay, but if I only have half an hour. Listen with an open heart and know how to get off the phone lovingly. That's it. And I think this is actually a really good place, you know, to also kind of sum up what this conversation was. We only have the capacity that we have. And we cannot grow the capacity to tolerate, intolerable. situations or people overnight and sometimes not even in this lifetime. With the time that we do

have with those people, are there ways to foster interactions that are healthy and productive? The answer is obviously, I think based on what Kara said and sort of my experience, the answer is always to increase your capacity to tolerate other people's pain. If you are not able to do that, that's literally what therapies for. I mean, literally, that is what therapy is for. Sure, there are books you can read, and the 12-step programs may be helpful also, depending on kind of the nature of these issues. But if you don't have something nice or supportive to say, you listen and you say,

that must be very hard what you're going through, and I'm very sorry. I hope you'll let me know if I can be helpful. Other things I say are I hope you're getting the support that you need. And being able to know that it's not for me to fix that. which means I'm allowed to turn that person over to the universe. And things that help me when I'm in that situation are dedicating time in meditation or prayer to that person's energy. Often keeping a picture of that person around so that I'm reminded to think kindly of them on their journey. But really that notion of releasing them.

And yeah, grow your roots deep. I mean, if that's not something we should put on a mug. I really like the idea of not having to respond or not having to have an answer that is directly a response to whatever crisis. Sometimes people like to complain. Yeah. I mean, honestly, sometimes people do like to complain. And I have compassion for those people. But again, compassion is one of those things that makes your roots grow deep.

And sometimes people like to complain because they don't actually know how else to communicate. Correct. And that's not that different from gossip, you know, because instead of feeling a feeling a feeling. feeling. Or, you know, sometimes you'll get on the phone. This happens even with friends. And they don't really know how to, they haven't spoken to you in a while. They don't know how to connect with you. So instead, they just, like, tell you all the terrible things that are going on. And that's a form of, you know, kind of anxiety, right? It's a form of anxiety. We're going to list some of the resources and suggestions that Kara and I talked about on the website and links to her podcast.

She really, she's a good talker that Kara. She's a bala busta also. That's a word of the day, Balabusta from the Hebrew. You might need help if you feel worse after spending time with your family than you did before. You might need help if the only way that you can tolerate being with your family is by being drunk or stoned. I'm just like, there's no other way to say it. You might need help if you find yourself dreading being with your family, meaning it disrupts your sleep, it disrupts your eating. You might need help if... You don't know any of your own triggers.

Wow. What Kara was saying, you might need help if you don't even know, you can't even say in three sentences, what actually is happening in interactions with your family. And I don't mean, she thinks I'm too fat. That's not what's happening. You know, it's never that. It's never the thing. It's what's under the thing. You might need help if you are afraid to see your family and avoid seeing them.

Or as friends of mine from the Midwest say, you may just be normal if you don't want to see your family and you see them once a year and it's great. And then you go home and you don't really think about it. I've been told by my Midwest friends that standard issue. Where I come from, that's not acceptable. You might need help if you don't know what an I statement is and you don't have much practice using eye statements. You might need help if someone's ever broken up with you because they've said, you have no boundaries. You might need help if you don't know enough exit lines to get yourself out of difficult conversations. Let's get ourselves out of this difficult conversation.

Go to Biolicbreakdown.com from My Breakdown to the one I hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my And Beialyx Breakdown, she's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down.