Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Kim Kelly: The People United will Never Be Defeated

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

Kim Kelly (independent journalist, author, organizer) breaks down why unions matter, what exactly is at stake with the current Hollywood strikes, and how her experience in sideshow school informed her passion for the labor movement. She discusses the diversity of the labor movement and how she navigates the emotional component, from child labor laws and fast fashion to the nail industry and instances of increased cancers in flight attendants. Kim opens up about being born with ectrodactyly, a rare congenital disorder, how that led her to join a sideshow school, and describes the fascinating history of sideshow and hierarchy of sideshow performers. She explains why prisoners deserve rights and how her career as a heavy metal journalist translates to the labor world, and Mayim explains radical veganism. Kim Kelly's Book, Fight Like Hell: The Untold History of American Labor: https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Fight-Like-Hell/Kim-Kelly/9781982171056 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Why do unions matter? Because we are always stronger together. One individual can change the world, but it's a whole lot easier when you've got a whole bunch of buddies with you. You know, throughout history, really the only way we've gotten ahead has been working collectively, been working together. Ideally, across racial and gender

and generational and linguistic lines. Like, those are the times. we've won, we've won big. When you're just one person, sure you know, theoretically have rights, sure, you can stand up for yourself, but you're vulnerable, right? You don't have anyone who has your back. I really think unions and organizations of working people are kind of one of the only almost universal, unifying institutions available to people in this country, because almost everybody has a job or has had a job or will have a job. That's the trouble is trying to exist under capitalism, right? You peel away a layer here or there and suddenly you're the asshole

because there's no winning, right? The system is set up in a way that nobody wins except like seven guys. It's difficult that we live in a system where the onus is placed on individuals to act equitably and responsibly and for us to be the good guys because all the corporations and the people in charge are allowed to be bad, it's on us to fix it, right? It's like if you personally don't recycle, all the seatholders are going to die. How do you feel about that?

Like, let's not talk about, you know, why it got like that in the first place. The thing about sideshow, as an art form, as opposed to magic, for example, is that it is real and it hurts. A lot of the skills I picked up, like, you know, breathing fire, or walking on glass or setting off a mouse trap with my tongue

or stick in my arm in a bear trap or swallowing swords. That stuff is real and it's spectacular. I was born with this condition called extradactyl, which the cliff notes of that is I have eight fingers and they're arranged in interesting ways. And there are a lot of other sideshow performers throughout history who had this same thing. Usually bill is like a lobster boy or a lobster girl.

My Coney Island stage name was Greta the Lobster Girl because I also have long, blonde hair and look a little bit like a Swedish milkmaid, you know. So it made sense to me at the time. But yeah, that experience of going to a sideshow school and being an environment where there is this kind of inverted hierarchy where folks traditionally in this world, if you're a natural born, if you're born different, you're at the top. You're top dog. Because you can't fake it. You can't fake it. My Ambiolyc's breakdown, she's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two.

And now she's going to break down. Hi, I'm My Ambialik and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Fly in solo today. But that's okay. Jonathan will be back. Another day. Today we're going to be breaking down the untold history of American labor fight like hell,

which is an incredible book by Kim Kelly. And Kim Kelly, in case you don't know, she's an independent journalist, she's an author, and she's an organizer. She's been writing for Teen Vogue since 2018. But here's the kicker. She writes on labor, class, politics, and culture. She's also written for everywhere, The New Republic, Washington Post, the New York Times. She was an original member of the vice union, member vice, and she's a third-generation union member.

She's also an elected councilperson for the Writers Guild of America East. She's born in Jersey. She's participated in the Coney Island Side Show School for so many reasons. She ran an anti-fascist metal festival. She's an incredible woman

and she's going to talk about why it matters to care about people in labor unions, why we should care about unions, why so many of us have relevance in this community and she's just an awesome, awesome person. Kim Kelly is going to join us,

and it is such a pleasure to welcome her to The Breakdown. Break it down. Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited. I'm very excited to talk to you for so many reasons. And I want to, as I talked about in the intro, I want to just highlight Fight Like Hell, the Untold History of American.

labor, which is your book, which looks like this. And I want to, you know, commend you for the amount of passion that must go into a project like this. You know, you wear a lot of hats and you've done a lot of incredible things in the culture space. You've done a lot of incredible things in your own personal space. But, you know, the fact that you have written this book and are kind of not only putting yourself out there, but really pulling the veil back on an aspect of, you know, of American history that many people vaguely know about, but the fact that you've kind of done it in one place, I think, with this kind of punch, is incredibly powerful. I want you to talk a little bit about why this book, meaning you have

so many experiences, you know, you, in particular, you as a woman, have been such a pioneer in spaces that people typically don't see women. And, you know, you've chosen, though, to highlight, you know, really aspects of, you know, what many of us academic feminists believe is one of the most important aspects of feminism is highlighting not only the role of women, but people of color, you know, underrepresented populations. And why, this book? Why write this way from your perspective? Well, first, I think this is the book that I could have really used when I started getting interested in labor and the labor movement, because I'm still relatively, well, maybe not anymore. It feels like at least I'm still relatively new to this

world. I spent most of my existence in the music business, which we can talk about a little later. That's a whole other wild story. But yeah, I became involved in labor because, I helped organize my workplace. That's the way that I think most people get involved in labor or even hear about the labor movement at this point by doing it. And when I was so enthralled with the history, with everything I was learning from, our organizers,

from our lawyers, just the entire thing was the most fascinating thing in the world to me. I described it to someone as if labor had become my new favorite band, you know? And as someone who's been in the heavy metal world, like having an encyclopedic knowledge of that world, I'm very well disposed to memorizing lots of new acronyms and new facts and new names.

It was just fun. And I wanted everybody who was interested in labor, involved in labor, to have that same experience of finding people that looked like them or felt like them or came from the same place they did and seeing themselves reflected in the movement. Because one thing that I found is I was reading, more and more books was that the stories I was most interested in didn't seem to get quite as much

attention. They were harder to get to because obviously academic researchers and historians had already done this work, have been doing this work. They're like they're the real MVP's, right? But as someone who was just, you know, a heavy metal dirt bag getting interested in labor, I didn't have access to, you know, the academic libraries or J-Store or any of the places where all these really cool, important documents live. And, you know, I wasn't in school. I didn't have, I don't think I've even taken a journalism class, which is a whole other thing. But I was just, you know, just a person. And I wanted to learn more about it. And I thought taking the opportunity I had to write a book and taking all these stories, I had found thanks to the work of people that came before and making

them really accessible, that was the way to really get it out there. I wrote it and structured it in a way that I wanted people to be able to pick it up and read it on their lunch break or page through it on the bus. I didn't want it to seem like a big lift. I wanted to seem fun and inspiring and interesting and sometimes infuriating. Like, you know, I'm not a novelist.

I don't think I have the chops for that, but I can tell a decent story. And I wanted to really emphasize the human aspects of these pieces of labor history that, you know, unless you had a really good professor or very specific specialization, you just weren't going to come across and like a regular, regular, regular American education.

Well, and I think that's also sort of what's so fun. I mean, I know it's an odd word to use when describing a book that, like, is describing some of the hardest aspects, really, not only of labor in America, but also of American history. But the kind of fun part is that there are personalities behind each of these movements. And, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, break down the book kind of almost by profession, right? And you have kind of the history of some of the classic, you know, the classic labor issues, right, that first evolved in the last century. And you do. You're telling stories. And I think that's also, you know, the notion of like breaking

the bonds of race class and gender. Like, that's, this book kind of does that chapter by chapter. Can you speak to this notion of, and I hate to make you talk about it, but I think it's important. Can you speak to the diversity that is inherent in the labor movement when I think many of us still have this notion of like, I don't know, like white dudes with shovels, like, you know, we're the workers of America. Like, I don't know what white men do in those posters. But, you know, like, that's kind of the notion. And then when you peel back, you know, kind of the history of mining, of garment workers,

field workers, you know, of sex workers, right? This is a diverse set of stories. Can you talk a little bit about that diversity? Yes, and you're so right about the white guy in a hard hat. That is presented as the archetype of the American worker. When politicians go up and talk about American jobs or American workers, that's who they're envisioning. And that's generally who they're, if they're trying to do anything,

that's who they're trying to target. But it's, and just even in the most basic terms, the most likely person to be in a union in this country is a black woman who works in a hotel or in the service industry. That's just like, I'm not even a data guy, but that's just the reality. I think the highest race of union membership are among black men and then black women. And that already kind of throws a little bit of a spanner into those works. And just the idea that the working class is one specific thing is so it's silly and intraductive and is harmful. because when you're presented with this idea as working class is one specific thing,

it's guys like my dad who work construction and live in Jersey and have terrible political views. I love my dad, but we argue. So yeah, my dad is part of it. But then so is almost everyone else. If you have a boss, if you are being paid for your labor, if you're not in control of your own destiny at work, you're probably part of the working class too. And there's a whole heck of a lot of us.

I mean, the labor movement is not a monolith. Even when it comes to some of our most important figures, whether they're well known or not, a whole lot of them in my book, it's so many of the people that did the most work or fought the hardest or struggled for the longest, were the women, we're the queer and non-barnary folks, were the black and brown and indigenous and Asian and Latino workers.

or the disabled workers, the sex workers, people have been criminalized. The only reason we have any of the rights or legislation that we do that protects workers is because of their sacrifice because they had to work even harder. And then their reward for far too many were that they were either written out of history or sanitized or, you know, kicked out of the labor movement, blackballed, red scared into submission. There's We all fits.

For any person who's involved in labor right now, whether you are a coal miner in Appalachia or a Starbucks worker in Kansas City or a tech worker in California or a garment worker, also in California, big shout out to L.A. Someone just like you has already done a lot of the work,

has already put in those bloodswind tears. They belonged then just as much as you belong now. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times, especially on the perimenopause journey. That's why we're fascinated by what superpower is doing. They send a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby

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Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. I love that you write for Teen Vogue and you write about these things. I mean, you obviously have a lucrative, you know, you're an independent, you know, journalist and you have this awesome book. And you also, though, you choose to bring topics up and especially the fact that, you know, that kind of publication, right, is, is wanting you to bring these kind of issues up.

I wonder if you can speak to, like, I think a lot of people, and, you know, I'm from a, you know, my grandparents were sweatshop workers. They were immigrants to this country. And, you know, my dad was a public school teacher. My mom began as a public school teacher. So, like, I just, I come from union people. And, you know, I was always taught about the significance of the union. And then I studied Marxism in college.

And I was like, I get it. I really get it. That's how they get you. Right. Exactly. And, you know, I've always been this, like, you know, oddball, like environmentalist. And, like, I promise that democratic socialism can work. And, you know, in the 80s and the 90s, people were like, you're on crack.

Why don't you shave your armpits? Which is like most of, you know. 19 years. But it's funny because now people like Kim Kelly write articles about these things. And like, it's a thing. And you wrote a book about it. There's also been a large set of conversations around unionizing. And I read a fascinating article about salts about, you know, college educated kids who basically go into places that are not unionized to try and educate people. I'm going to ask you to explain it really plainly. Why do unions matter? Why are people all up in arms about unions?

Why are people encouraged to unionize? Like, why is it a thing? And unions sometimes get a bad rap. But why do unions matter? Because we are always stronger together. One individual can change the world, but it's a whole lot easier when you've got a whole bunch of buddies with you. You know, throughout history, really the only way we've gotten ahead has been working.

collectively, been working together, ideally across racial and gender and generational and linguistic lines. Like those are the times we've won and we've won big. When you're just one person, sure you, you know, theoretically have rights, sure you can stand up for yourself, but you're vulnerable, right? You don't have anyone who has your back. An individual worker, you can go up and talk to your boss and say, I want to raise. Then you say, okay, you're fine.

fired. Or if I'm not going to fire you, I'm going to make your life worse. Or I'm just going to ignore the quest all together. But if 20 of you show up or 200 of you organize and force them to meet you across a bargaining table and sign a legal document, that power dynamic shifts considerably. It all comes down to power. Who has it? Who deserves it? Who wants some? And just figuring out how to get a little piece of it back for yourself and for your co-workers. I tend to, as someone who also got into radical stuff pretty young and kept on trucking, I have a lot of views about greedy bosses and CEOs and the distribution of resources and wealth in this country. And then I'm also in a union with people that want to get rich or want to at least, or think I'm like a bomb-throwing radical

and have no interest in what I have to say. But because we're in that union and we have to have those shared interests of getting a good contract, of being treated properly, of taking care of our coworkers, we work together and we achieve that bigger goal. I really think unions and organizations of working people are kind of one of the only almost universal unifying institutions available to people in this country, because almost everybody has a job or has had a job or will have a job. You know, labor is as close to a universal experience. you can get outside of birth, death, and taxes if you're not rich. Being able to access that power and access the resources that come with organizing and getting

involved with the union or starting your own dang union, you know, independent unions exist. The IWW is still out here. There's so many different ways to organize and to fight back and to seize at least some of that power for ourselves. And I just think it's silly when folks like say, have all of these criticisms. of unions without acknowledging the good that they've done and the good that they can do. And the fact that a union ultimately is without all the layers of bureaucracy, red tape or legal this, NLRB, that a union is a group of workers who come together to try and make a change.

You and your friend at work, you could be a union if we really wanted to. It just, it comes down to people working together to achieve what they, deserve. It's a beautiful and simple analysis because it really is. It's like a complicated problem that has a simple solution, right? But one of the things that I also would like you to speak

to is I get really emotional apparently when we talk about unions. I get. It's just like I already started crying. You know, the notion that the people united will never be defeated. Like this is one of the sort of classic cries that you hear, you know, usually during

strikes or, you know, chills. But one of the, one of the most challenging things, you know, just for me as a human is when we come to topics like this and you have to like explain to people why unions are important, right? I, unfortunately, it's also like I'm a vegan, which is another sort of radical thing to be. And it's kind of like when people ask why be vegan, there's all the like nice answers you can give. And then there's like the five things. that no one wants to hear about what really happens, right, in factories or to workers in factories, you know, that are producing, let's say, animal products. But I'm going to leave that aside because when you talk to people about unions, you can say all these things, right? And you hope that that will

stir, you know, the proletariat inside of them. But the truth is that there are horrendous and disturbing things that happen when people are not protected by a union. And it's kind of like, I keep that in my back pocket, and you chose to put it, you know, throughout the pages of this book. People don't want to hear that it has been a standard practice to sterilize women to make them more, quote, efficient workers. People don't want to hear that women are forced to have abortions if they get pregnant because it disrupts the labor.

that needs to go on to produce a product, right? So I'm just picking two ugly things. I want to point out that, you know, your book is, it's not an easy read emotionally because if you want to understand the culture of labor, if you want to understand literally this country and the foundation of what we know of as this country, which existed long before we declared it this country, you have to understand some hard things. And I want to know just from you kind of like as a human person,

what is it like to try and communicate such painful things for this cause? And how do you do it? Like how do you stomach it? And then how do you deliver it, you know, in ways that people will hear it? Gosh, right in this book, broke my heart a million ways to Sunday. you know, especially because I started writing it and really wrote the whole thing in like 2020, earlier in the pandemic, when I couldn't leave my house. So it was just me and my books and my pirated J store articles and the people I was calling on the phone.

Honestly, shout out to my friends who are a PhD students who got me the good stuff because I don't have a .edu. But it was, it got overwhelming sometimes. Like, there's definitely, you know, theoretical, like, metaphorical teardrops on these pages because it is so ugly. And it's still happening. That's the worst part. Like, going through and telling these stories,

what people had to go through, what children had to go through, what immigrants had to go through, what disabled folks had to go through, and are still going through. It just, it kind of drains the life out of you. But then things that I cling to, it's, I don't know if it's a,

polyanish instinct or just residual PMA or from the hardcore scene. Like you find the silver linings, right? Like these people fought so hard and they got knocked back. And the government sent in some troops to shoot them. And someone's child got burned alive. And oh my God, this is terrible. But 50 years down the line, they won. Like holding on to that hope, I think the hope is really the biggest,

underlying theme of the whole thing. Because if we didn't have hope, we wouldn't have tried any of this in the first place, right? And we wouldn't still be trying, you know? One of, it's interesting thinking about the ugly stuff and the way that it's talked about now. Something that drives me a little, a little to distraction is the current kind of outrage around child labor and the rollback of child labor laws in places like Arkansas and probably a bunch of other have it on docket. And the thing about that, which you'll see in reading my book and also maybe in paying a little bit more attention out there is that it never stopped.

Like this isn't a brand new thing. Right. There have been children and specifically children of color, immigrant children who have been working in the slaughterhouses and the factories and the fields since we had those things. You know, all the child labor laws that were instituted, they weren't for those. children. There are carve-outs. They're exceptions. All of our major labor laws, even the pretty good ones, they leave people out. And they left people out back then in the 1930s in their past. And as things have evolved and work has shifted, even more people have fallen by the wayside. And we haven't had that massive labor law reform and that that massive update that we need.

So now there are a whole new categories of workers who don't like Teddy Roosevelt and his buddy's never thought about Uber. They weren't thinking about the rights of sex workers. They were not thinking about, you know, what happens if you're a 14-year-old kid working in a slaughterhouse in Alabama and your parents get deported. Like, there's, that's why I wanted to write a book like this and showcase the stories of folks like this, because they shouldn't have been left out. And now that hopefully we're a little bit more enlightened or at least paying a little bit more attention. We need to make sure they're not left out again or anymore. Like we need to, there's no excuse anymore, right? We have history books. I wrote one. When I was looking at,

you know, some of the articles that you've, that you've written for Teen Vogue, I mean, I just think you're so friggin awesome. But, you know, I was looking through these articles and I was like, oh, this is like, you're, you get to write about things that people don't want to think about, but you get to write about them in a way that makes people not able to look away. And one of the things that you tackled and like, I'm just going to go ahead and ask you to talk about it, you wrote this article about occupational disease and women and it came out this year. And, you know, you kind of, it's, It's really, like, you're so my people.

Like, if we were at a party, like, you're who I would corner and be like, tell me everything. Like, I want to know everything. Like, I'll get you another beer. But, you know, talking to people about what happens to people who do manicures, for example, that's a hard one. Do you ever feel like I can't go here? Like, no one wants to know? because people, you know, in many cases, they don't want to know.

Yeah, that's the trouble of trying to exist under capitalism, right? You peel away a layer here or there and suddenly you're the asshole. Because there's no winning, right? The system is set up in a way that nobody wins except like seven guys. And so the nail salon one is interesting. I've covered it a couple times over the years because I think it's so interesting because it is so ingrained in so many people's lives, whether they're folks who are paying hundreds of dollars

for really fancy nails or someone like me that goes and gets their nails done once every couple years when they're feeling brave. Like, it's just something that you do sometimes. And of course, you know, the workers are not treated as well as they should. There's so many layers to the way they're treated poorly, whether it's the way the customers are treating them because not everyone is nice to service workers.

Most people, I would say, are not very nice. The service worker. And it seems like they've gotten worse. No one knows how to act anymore. And then there's the issues with some of the workers, obviously not all. Some of the workers have complicated immigration statuses or their newer arrivals to the country. So they have some stuff going on there or there's a language barrier or there's a housing issue or they're being outright exploited. And while all of that is happening, they're breathing in chemicals.

And all of this is so your nails can look pretty. and that's really hard to justify. People get some mad. They get really mad. It's like talking about prison labor or about like fast fashion and why that $5 halter top costs like an hour

and a half of someone's life. You know, it's difficult that we live in a system where the onus is placed on individuals to act equitably and responsibly and for us to be the good guys because all the corporations and the people in charge are allowed to be bad.

It's on. us to fix it, right? It's like, if you personally don't recycle, all the seatholders are going to die. How do you feel about that? Like, let's not talk about, you know, why it got like that in the first place. But I think the thing that I like to write about the most that makes people a little squirmie is incarcerated workers, people in prison and what happens to them with their jobs. No one wants to think about what happens in prison. Because there's no notion. is like, we send them there to make them better so they don't commit crimes.

I mean, like, that is not what happens. Yeah, it's literally sending someone to crime college. Like, it's when I was writing this book, one of my best friends, he was incarcerated in Rikers. And he actually wrote about him. He helped organize a strike while I was there earlier in COVID. When they were not getting soap or masks or anything and they were crammed in these dorms,

They led, you know, him and some of his, well, co-workers led a strike and they got what they needed. And that's a labor story. Why do prisoners need rights? You know, it's as if people lose their humanity once they walk into a slightly different building. Whether or not they should, I mean, there's lots of big essential questions about whether anybody should be in a prison, right? That's probably a whole other episode. But it's just the lack of humanity and grace and empathy extended to incarcerated people,

it filters out in the way that people see prison labor and incarcerated workers. Like, they're part of the labor movement. There are brothers and sisters and siblings. When they go in, when they come out, if they never get a chance, either way, they are working either for a wage or for nothing. They have a boss.

They have hours. but they don't have the opportunity to say, hey, boss, I'm not feeling so good. I'm going to go home for the day. Now, you get back to work. You don't have any rights. And something that I came across when I was writing the book, I should have to shout out my friend Victoria Law, who is another brilliant author and just the best.

She mentioned, while I was interviewing her about something else, she mentioned, hey, there was this Supreme Court case at one point you should look into that has something to do with prisoners unions. I was like, okay, Vicki, I'll Google that. But I found it. The Jones, I think it was 1977, the Jones versus North Carolina Prisoners Labor Union. Essentially, it's all in the book. But essentially, the Supreme Court ruled that people in prison don't have their right to organize.

They don't have their right to form a union. And that, when that came out, it just stamped all over decades of incarcerated worker organizing. Like, it's, and that's complicated. That's not nice. Like they're police in a lot of organized labor unions. And it's all complicated and it's messy. And it brings in people's opinions about things. But I'm going to keep hammering towards it because even though my friend is not stuck there anymore,

a lot of other people are. And until they're all free, they're going to need someone and a lot of someone's to care about them and talk about them and embrace them in the spirit of this movement. Because if an injury to one is an injury to all is something we're going to continue to hold onto, that means all, even if it's uncomfortable. Moving to a slightly lighter topic that you also wrote about, I have to bring it up. This one freaked me out. Flight attendants. This one rocked me. So increasingly high rates of a variety of cancers in. flight attendants. And, you know, some of the reasons that you talk about, radiation, right? Like chemicals. And then like disruption of circadian rhythms, which like the scientist in me was like,

of course. Because I would always tell people, because once you learn this as an undergrad, you know, neuroscience student, you tell everyone because you want to be that popular. You can't force your body to need like two hours of sleep. Like it's not like, you know, when people are like, I work a night shift and I'm fine. Your body always knows something's wrong. Like even if you like,

you nap in the day, like your body always knows that when the sun comes up, like we're mammals, we're animals. Like your body always knows. So when you pointed that out, I was like, oh my gosh, like flying the friendly skies

and like this job that like so many women also it was like their way out, you know, for many of them. It was like a life of adventure and excitement. And yeah, these are some of the things that happen at jobs that matter and that people need protection around. And it doesn't make it convenient. Because if we start thinking this way, and your book talks about this, once you start thinking this way, the machine has to change. You cannot have the same productivity when you care about people as you do if you don't. And like, that's just like marks and angles folks. Like, it's a very, very basic stuff. But the flight attendant one really rocked me. Yeah. And thankfully,

they have a really strong union. That's how they've gotten to be. And they're actually one of the most like militant unions out there. Their president, Sarah Nelson, she is of force. But, yeah, without all that organizing and agitating and protesting, things would still be worse for them. They're still be having to step on a scale and have to quit as soon as they get married or pregnant. And that, you know, those changes happen and the world didn't fall apart. So I'm sure some other ones could be implemented to keep them safe from breast cancer and extreme stress and sleep deprivation. Like there's there's always a way to do a little bit better.

We've gotten, things have gotten a little bit better over the years and the world didn't explode. So it stands to reason, there's still some room for improvement. Absolutely. Can you talk a little bit about the WGA? This has been something that a lot of people hadn't really thought about, you know, until it sort of hit the industry now. You know, the last writer's strike, many people say was the birth of reality television because that's kind of what happened is a lot of scripted stuff went down. I was just starting on Big Bang theory when the last writer's strike finished.

And so this one, it also feels like social media is different this time. Like, everybody seems to be hearing more about it. Can you talk a little bit about sort of, you know, the WGA and, you know, many of us who know who know writers and love writers, you know, we know that the people at kind of the highest levels of their writing careers. Like this is not a, obviously, it impacts everyone. But this is not a do or die strike for them, but there are many young writers. and many people who are new to writing rooms,

who's really, their livelihood is kind of hanging on this strike. You know, no one likes that we are striking. But can you talk a bit about sort of what's at stake, like for people being like, I've heard there's a writer's strike? It's honestly, we're facing this essential crisis. Like this moment for our industry, our industry writ large, which includes, you know, the DGA and Seg After and IASI, everybody involved in the production of media on that coast and in New York and everywhere else.

Like it's a big sprawling issue. And one of the biggest issues besides residuals, which our workers are not getting because of the rise of streaming, which I guess could be talking about how reality TV was born of that strike. You know, streaming popped up between that strike and this one. So now we have to retroactively fix all the problems that happened with. that. And also, just to clarify for people who may not be thinking about this, so residuals, you know, as actors and writers, you get paid when something that you wrote or created or participated in, you get paid a small percentage. But for many people, residuals is sort of what keeps their

career going, meaning you get a lump sum to write something or you get a lump sum to be in something. But then every time it shows, it's an acknowledgement that people are purchasing your labor. And so what happens with streaming, as many of you have experienced, you can watch something as many times as you want, and the money goes to your monthly subscription, but the actual creators, and again, this is how a society is structured. You know, everybody gets paid and we all kind of work together. The actual people who created that labor are not seeing that. So that's what residuals means, right, when we talk about streaming. And that's why so many writers, especially younger and newer writers who are getting on the Hulu, Netflix, et cetera, boom,

like they're not getting paid for that work. And so they're struggling. And of course, it's one of those jobs. Like, I write, I'm a screenwriter. I write for TV. It sounds glamorous, right? But so many of our members are not making very much money. You know, some of them don't even make enough to qualify

for the writer skills health insurance, which is a whole other kettle of fish. Many people are losing their health insurance because of this, and people don't realize that either, is that there are, you know, part of the thing about being part of a union is often you have to have a certain amount of dues that you pay, which are usually based on earnings, but you have to have a certain number of hours to maintain your standing in a union, which is what guarantees in many cases your insurance. So the trickle-down effects of this is also people who do hair and makeup and wardrobe.

All those people whose livelihood is this, many people are losing, you know, their insurance because of their union status, which is obviously super complicated and a product of our broken system in general. But I just wanted to clarify that as well. A lot of these young writers are also they're women, they're people of color. They are, you know, writers who are coming up in, you know, a culture that is finally recognizing the need for those voices in writing rooms and also in many cases in acting roles. And so a lot of the people who are also struggling, it's kind of like a double whammy because the younger people who are, you know, coming out of film school or writing school, that's who also we need in those rooms. And they're going to kind of take the hardest

hit. Exactly. And so many of our members, too, like I've been on the writer's school council for, this is my sixth year. It's been a wild ride. And so many of our members in, I represent folks in the online media sector, so digital media like vice or Gawker, well, they're both pretty much gone, you know, the newer ones. And that's kind of a joke, but also, like, our industry is so unstable that a lot of our members in that sector are looking towards screenwriting and writing for movies. Like, that's kind of one of the big career shifts we've been seeing. And that's kind of, we've thought up until fairly recently, we thought, okay, that's a way

to make a little bit of money. It'll get a little bit more stability because journalism is imploding, but at least we have this off ramp and we can use our skills in this way. but what we're seeing and what we're hearing from the studio executives who may have more money than God and pull in, I don't even know, billions, hundreds of millions, so much money every year for doing nothing, for yelling at their assistance. That is one of the things that I think has really been very stark and helped garner a lot of attention for the strike, is the studio executives aren't doing themselves any favors.

they're really leaning into the whole let them eat cake vibe that worked out so well, you know, in a different time and a different place, talking about how they're fine with starving us out, with waiting for us to lose our houses, you know, oh, we're making so much money by not having to pay you. It's just, it's not a great way to endear oneself to the public. And it's really not a great way to act.

If you're allegedly the good guys, like good guys don't want people to lose their house. houses so they can afford to buy a third yacht. It's just very, the amount of money involved in this industry and the visibility of it, you know, a lot of people watch TV, a lot of people watch movies. That's helped get a ton of attention that a lot of other strikes and labor struggles don't really get. And it's been really heartening to see the solidarity that we've gotten from other unions,

whether it's our siblings in Seagafra or the Teamsters or Ayatzee, Starbucks workers were out there. Sir Nelson from the flight attendants was just a... out there on the line. Like, it's, everyone seems to understand, like, this, this is a big one because it also comes down to the value of human labor, because we're facing down this, this issue with AI, artificial intelligence and the way that studios and probably your boss too, everyone's boss is looking at, you know, how can we use chat GPT or some other evil acronym to take work away

from a human? How can we exploit, how can we, like, suck out the essence of a human work? and hold on to it for a century and make sure we don't have to pay them at all. Like this is the thing. They want to, not only do they want to, you know, not pay us very well and not treat us very well. They don't even want us anymore.

There really seems to be this push from that type of studio head, that type of corporate leader, that type of evil boss to try and get the whole messy, needy, nagging human element out altogether and just automate everything. And even if you're not that simplicity, to Hollywood screenwriters or actors, it's going to happen to you, too.

So you better buckle up and start paying attention. I want to, I can't not talk to you about the Coney Island side show school. Because I just, those words together need to be spoken. You wrote about this in Vox. In 2019, you joined Coney Island. Sideshow school. I want to know how long is the school? Like, is this like a six week? It's like a three month intensive. How long do you go to school? It was actually a pretty, pretty accelerated program. And they do, I went in 2019, and this is the first year. Actually, they've brought it back because the

pandemic, which is still pandemaking, but it's pandemicing differently. They brought it back this year. But it was only, it was like five days. Oh, so it's like a, it's like an intensive as it were. And it is intense. I ended up, I even, I didn't get to write about that specifically in my book, but there's a reason why there's a section on sideshow workers in the book, right? Because I was like, well, you know. Yeah.

But yeah, it all came about because my, my sweetheart is a Coney Island baby. He's from Coney Island. And back when I lived in New York, I used to spend a lot of time there as one does. And we would go on dates to the sideshow. I thought it was the coolest thing. And one day he's like, yeah, I heard they do like a school or something. And I was like, that's not real. And I looked it up and it was real and it was starting in a few weeks.

So as a freelancer, I was like, okay, I have to trick someone into letting me write about this because I can't afford it because I'm freelance. And I successfully did that. And I went I went to Sideshow school and I learned all sorts of interesting things. And the thing about sideshow, as an art form, as opposed to magic, for example, is that it is real and it hurts. A lot of the skills I picked up like, you know, breathing fire or walking on glass or setting off a mouse trap with my tongue or sticking my arm in a bear trap or swallowing swords. That stuff is real. Right, it's not magic. Well, and it's right.

And I think what's interesting about sort of how you talk about it, also, I mean, there is a fascinating history, and, you know, there's, there's so many interesting, there's so much interesting overlap between sort of biology and, you know, the history of sideshows because there are so many things that were, you know, advertised and sensationalized that we know a lot about, you know, in terms of medical, you know, medical significance. But you talk about some of the hierarchy. And I did want to mention this because you are what's called a natural born. And I think what really touched me, what you said, is you found the one place on earth where being you was a plus.

And I thought that was so interesting, though, because it connects for me, I hope you don't mind. It connects to fight like hell for me because you talk about sort of the experience. experience of the individual and how we build an entire identity around our needs, you know, our particularities or things that don't fit or things that do fit. And you then talked about kind of stepping into a community. And I wonder if you could, you know, kind of maybe compare some of how, you know, your personal experience of stepping into a community and saying, I belong. I'm both unique and I'm also part of. And how that connects to your interest in sort of fighting for the rights of workers, not just as individuals, but as a group.

Wow. That doesn't. When you put it like that, it's like, oh, okay, maybe there's something here. And for folks listening who are like, what in the world are you talking about? The cliff notes versus I was born with this condition called extradactyl, which the cliff notes of that is, I have eight fingers and they're arranged in interesting ways. And there are a lot of, and they're a of other side show performers throughout history who had this same thing. Usually billed as like a lobster boy or a lobster girl. My Coney Island stage name was Greta the lobster girl because I also have long, blonde hair and look a little bit like a Swedish milkmaid, you know.

So it made sense to me at the time. But yeah, that experience of going to the sideshow school and being an environment where there is this kind of inverted hierarchy where folks traditionally in this world, if you're a natural born, if you're born different, you're at the top. You're top dog. Because you can't fake it. You can't fake it. Then below that are folks who modify themselves intentionally, whether it's your tattooed

ladies or your lizard men. And then at the very bottom are the people that swallow swords and walk on glass and had to work. They're called the Working Acts because all they can do is work, which I thought it was so fun. So now the sideshow, at least at Coney Island, you have to learn how to do stuff. too. I can't just stand up there and wave. But who says all progress is good.

No, it's actually great. But yeah, thinking about that experience and then the experience of being a person who got involved in a union who never thought I'd have a chance, right? Like, I'm from a blue collar union family. My family were all union and they all were construction

or steel work or there were teachers. And I knew unions were a good thing, but I like wrote about death metal on the internet. I didn't think there was like you know, local 666 wasn't looking out for me. But it turns out that they sort of were, or at least the Writers Guild was. And becoming involved in that way, again,

being an individual with my own problems, my own experience, and my own issues, meeting up with a whole bunch of other people with their own individual deals, and realizing how much we had in common, that really made the light bulb switch flick or light bulb go off, right? Like, okay, this person who I work with who I don't even really like,

they're also having a hard time paying their rent. They're also being treated poorly by this supervisor. We do have some things in common. And if we work together, we can fix it, or at the very least, make it a little bit better. So the next round of negotiations, we can fix it. That was this sort of seismic feeling. And I'm sure so many of the people I wrote about

felt the same way. Because when you're having a hard time or you're a little bit different or both, Like, it's easy to feel very isolated and powerless and weak. But when you can connect with other people who understand what you're going through on some level, that brings so much power and so much just kind of, oh, like, okay, okay, maybe I can do something about this. Maybe this issue I'm having, maybe, or this experience, maybe that's actually a strength. Maybe that's something I can use, like whether it's finding out of when I walk onto a side show,

and hammer and nail it in my face. I'm a little bit extra fun because I have eight fingers or, you know, finding out in a union negotiation, being a foul-mouthed Jersey girl can occasionally come in handy. It's, you know, it just shows how connected we all are and how connected all of our experiences and struggles are and how positive and empowering it can really be to realize, like, okay, maybe I'm a misfit, maybe I'm a freak. But so is everyone. everybody else. It almost feels like you're part of, there's a club that I just am allowing you into.

People who believe that humans can be really bad, but that humanity can be really good. And it sort of feels like that's, you know, you look into the darkest parts of how poorly humans can treat each other, how poorly humans can see each other. But there's this sort of like optimism about you, which I think like if I tried to write what you did,

it would be very hard for me. But I think that's really the beauty of kind of how you present it. And again, I recommend the untold history of American labor, Fight Like Hell by Kim Kelly, a fantastic read. And also, like,

this is something I'm going to give to my child when he goes to college. Because, like, I really think this is the kind of book, like when you send your child to college or if you know a child who's entering the world, this is one of the most important

kind of sets of information. You know, I think that that young people need, especially privileged white children. Anyway, before we say goodbye, I have to ask you, you organized the United States first ever anti-fascist medal festival. And I wonder if you can talk a little bit about the need for an anti-fascist metal festival and how that came about.

Oh, gosh. Oh, I love this. Yeah, it's funny. So many people that come to my work in the labor world don't even know about my entire life as a metal head, as a metal journalist and promoter and touring. And a real, a real pioneer. I mean, especially like a preeminent, you know, I mean, females in that space, you know, you're the most unicorns of unicorns. I was, yeah, and people, some people love me and some people wanted to kill me about it. That means you're doing something right. That's what I told myself.

Gosh, yeah, for a very long time, I guess 20, yeah, started when I was 15, the past 20 years, especially before I got into labor, I was a heavy metal journalist and a heavy metal everything. thing. Meadow is my life. And as I, you know, I grew up in the middle of the woods and didn't know nothing about nobody. And then as soon as I left and got and made more friends and learned more about the world, I realized pretty early like, oh, okay, women aren't being treated great. And they're not being treated great in my scene. Huh. And then I like grew up a little bit more. And I was like, wait, a lot of people aren't being treated great. And they're not being treated great in my scene. I should say something about this. I should write about this. And so that's what I started to do. And as my political consciousness grew, I became more outspoken about these things, about racism and homophobia, anti-Semitism, all of the bad shit that pollutes our favorite things.

And I had also spent a lot of time touring and poking shows and all my friends are in bands. I was about as connected as you could be in that very specific underground heavy metal world, which is a global phenomenon, but we're still kind of a, a niche interest at this point. It's not quite Metallica. But in 2019, I was still working at Vice where it was the heavy metal editor, which was at one point a job you could have. And I think I had just texted my friends

in this band, Dawn Raid, for this anarchist black metal band from the UK. I was like, man, wouldn't it be cool if I just, if I just brought you guys over to play a show or, like, did a festival or something? And they're like, oh, you should do that. I was like, huh, maybe I should do that. And I did that.

And not just me. of course, my friend Jack helped out, my sweetheart helped out. And then, of course, all the bands and the venue staff. Like, it was a big village, tense sort of effort. But, yeah, I put on this festival called Black Flags Over Brooklyn in 2019. That was like a combination, anti-fascist metal festival and kind of like anarchist book fair situation. And it was really lovely. All of the bands were politically on point.

Most of them had women or people of color or queer folks or all of the above involved. It was, the crowd was so beautiful. It was so many people that told me they didn't necessarily feel safe at other types of shows, but were having a great time. My friend Rupa brought her kid. Like, it was really wholesome for a bunch of bands that were singing about, you know, burning down the patriarchy and dismantling capitalism at very loud volumes. It was, it was probably one of the coolest things I've ever done.

And I still have a little bit of money set aside for round two. I just have to, you know, solve the issue. labor versus capital first. Well, we will be standing by. Kim Kelly, it's really so incredible to talk to you. And I just, I think you're amazing. And I just, I hope so many, I hope so many people will be inspired by you as I am. And you're just freaking awesome.

The book, The Untold History of American Labor, Fight Like Hell, Kim Kelly. Thank you for fighting the good fight and for coming to talk to us about it. Really a pleasure to talk to you. Well, thank you so much. I'm going to be in LA next month. Maybe I'll take you up on that beer. Oh, fun. Oh, I don't know.

Where should I take her? I know, well, Valerie would have to come. Okay, we'll start getting ready. We'll get our nails done. Just kidding. I'll get a discount. I've only got eight. It's my and Bialics breakdown.

She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph. Ph.D. or two. One, fiction. And now she's going to break down.