Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Kunal Nayyar #2: Life is One Big Surrender

Episode Date: May 14, 2024

"You Don’t Need to Climb a Mountain to Reach Enlightenment” - KUNAL NAYYAR, one of our most popular guests of ALL TIME, is back!   Feeling Fatigued? KUNAL is Here to Deal Out Some HOPE!    Kunal helps us unravel the secrets to attaining inner peace and catalyzing global change in this transformative episode.  From the power of ego surrender and "self-sacrifice" to his enlightening perspective on the purpose of pain, Kunal's journey through the Myth of Enlightenment and navigating feelings of aimlessness offers invaluable lessons for anyone seeking a more fulfilling and peaceful life.  Kunal shares practical meditation tips with Mayim, his thoughts on finding love and compassion in altered states, his perspective on ancestral trauma, practical ways to detach from our thoughts and ego in order to live in harmony with others, and how we should decide which of our personal obstacles to tackle and which to find a way to live with.  He also breaks down:- His struggle with being pigeon-holed into his TBBT character, Raj Koothrappali- Fatigue we feel from hyper-focusing on self-work- Why we should stop holding our stories so tightly- How workaholism can actually be a crutch- Why we should stop trying to live someone else's life- The Elusive Nature of Thought- Ways we can release "the Illusion of ourselves"- His spiritual connection to and the meditative process of acting   PLUS @jonathancohenofficial opens up about his first experience with reiki.   Kunal wants you to know that you are not a problem that needs solving and that world peace starts within!    Check out our first episode with Kunal Nayyar: https://youtu.be/9fY2L0E2S20   BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I think more people need to be told you're beautiful. I think more people need to be told you look really nice today. I think people need to make more jokes. Spend more time together. Not take every second of this kind of finite journey in our story so seriously. And I think people need to really be able to forgive people. Be able to forgive yourself for not knowing the things you didn't know. These are simple things.

You can be awake You can be the most enlightened person in the world But what's the use of it If it doesn't make you a kinder sweeter Happier, more relaxed person Who cares how much Enlightenment you have We want world leaders

To solve world peace Yet if our neighbor knocks on a door right now We'll grab a gun and we'll cock it And we'll be like, what do you want? I just want some water. Get out If you're not even willing to call a friend We haven't spoken to a near and say I'm sorry There'll never be world peace

The world will not change until you yourself don't become more open, more loving, more surrendering, more compassionate, more kind. It's Myambialy's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. Hi, I'm Myambe Alec. I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. This is a place where we break things down. So you don't have to. it's kind of an epic episode today. Someone is returning. Someone is returning who I think might be one of your favorite people, listeners,

judging by how many people have listened to, watched, and shared his first appearance. Back by popular demand. Back by popular demand. Kunal Nair, from the Big Bang Theory. You know him as the lovable astrophysicist Raj, Couther Polly, who we just called Couther Polly. And he's been doing a ton of incredible acting work in the years since we've had him on. But we were just kind of missing him. And I literally was like, hey, do you want to come talk?

And he literally said, yes. And if you haven't listened to his first episode, check it out. He shares so deeply. He has an enormous amount of wisdom. He references a few things that he talks about in, in this episode that he talks about in the previous episode, the way that he started towards enlightenment, the panic attacks that he started to have, his journey to overcome them, the insight that he gained, and how he started meditating, reading a lot of spiritual texts,

and really changed his life dramatically. And we get to catch up with him and hear a lot more about what his spiritual life and inner life has been, what's been happening in it. In particular, he's going to explain to us. us how his spiritual practice has shifted, why it has shifted, and how he sees his shift as reflective of something that I think is echoing out in a lot of ways for a lot of people. There's a certain amount of fatigue many of us have from working so hard on ourselves, and he's going to talk about how he came to the realization that there's a different way to do it. To discover yourself, he says.

To discover yourself, to know yourself. What does that mean? We get pretty deep here today, folks. Put on your thinking caps and your feeling caps and open your heart. It's such a pleasure to welcome Canal. Break it down. You've been doing some amazing acting work. And I don't mean to sound surprised.

I can't believe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, but I've known some of the stuff that you've been doing. But when I looked at it all written in one document, you've been doing some really beautiful work. Thank you. And I wonder if you'd like to share with the people all the things you've been doing. I mean, like everything. Like, it's been like TVs and features and like, I mean, it's been, it's some really cool stuff.

I mean, look, Big Bang was obviously the greatest gift of our lives, especially, you know, I can speak for myself. But the problem, one of the issues that can happen is if you get stigmatized, is that even a word? If you get, you know, stigmatized by being only a multi-camera act. And someone that's so recognizable on television, still to this day, eight times a day in people's homes all over the world, you get pigeonholed into that similar character. So all the work that I've picked ever since or have auditioned for and gotten has been things that are completely different. So I did Criminal UK for Netflix, which I got nominated for BAFTA for where I played a criminal. Yeah. And then I did suspicion for Apple TV for a season where I played a suspicious character.

And then I did a movie called AJ Fickory, the story life of A.J. Fickory about a book owner in a fictitious island. We shot that in Cape Cod, a guy who had lost his wife and found life again by adopting a daughter that ends up on his doorstep. So I'm also currently about to jump into something very exciting. Gurinda Chadha, who made Bended Lake Beckham, is directing a take on the Christmas Carol. but it's set in diverse London with an Indian character based on Scrooge called Sooth and I'm playing

this very sort of older a gentleman who's got a lot of pain in his life and exploring where does that pain come from how does someone turn into that? Wow. Is there a sort of notion of past future? Yes, it's very, very close to Dickens' story. It really is an homage.

to Dickens' story. Right. It's just that, yeah, it's just that you're seeing, obviously, some diversity. And it's called a Christmas karma? It's called a Christmas karma. That's great. That's unbelievable. I'm not going to ask what your favorite thing has been to do, but what kind of character

feels the most satisfying to play? That's a good question. I really love characters who express themselves through language. So characters that have gotten to play that have, time to be able to speak and use language either as a weapon or a self-defense or anything that they use language to mask. I really like being involved with. And you don't always get that opportunity, but I've been lucky.

Well, and especially on sitcom, you really don't. Or in TV. Right, right. Exactly. And also, to be honest, being ethnic, being South Asian, those are not roles that are completely written with multi-layers. So I've been lucky to have played some of those characters. That's wonderful.

When I do the math of how many years it's been since Big Bang Theory ended and all of these things, it would be tempting to say, like, you've been very, very busy. Has there also been periods of quiet? Yeah. You can't see. My wife is here. Neha, she's sitting. I can see.

She's tucked in the corner. But she will tell you, I have been quite a nightmare the last. year to be around just because of the strike and then suspicion season 2 got cancelled we couldn't do it and everything got stalled in a way

and so I felt quite directionless without the crutch of throwing myself into my work we got so used to having vacations knowing that we had somewhere to go back to and it's not so much a fear

of being irrelevant for me as much as it is really not getting to do the thing that I love. I love acting. And it's not even about acting. I love being on set. I love being around people. I love...

This is why when I read reviews or critics reviews about movies and TV shows and I try not to anymore because it makes me sad because I think you haven't even spent one second really doing 14 hours a day on a set.

You know, this is why it's so hard for me to criticize any form of art because I know the sacrifice it takes to really do something at a high level. I'm not saying critics are bad, don't know everything. I'm just saying that it's hard for me to criticize a form of art

when I know the sacrifice it takes to actually create something you love. So I have not been a joy to be around, I hope. but I feel lost when I don't have, you know, this thing that I can dive into. What do you do when you're directionless? Besides, I know your wife.

So, no. You know, we've talked a lot about the inner journey. Though I'm not acting, I'm also doing many other things, you know. But I think it's a great time for self-reflection. I think any time I feel the pull into the sort of the egoistic side of myself, It's always nice to pull back and say, okay, surrender, surrender, more surrender, more surrender all the time. I think life is just one big surrender and there's no real destination. Before we get a little more into that sort of inner journey, I'm just curious, where have you been spending most of your time?

Have you been here? Have you been in India? Like, where have you been? A mix between India, London, L.A. has been spending more time in India recently. But London really, because my parents live in India, our parents live in India, everyone is in India. It seems closer. Los Angeles is the furthest place in the world from anything. Even going on vacation is Hawaii, which is six hours away. You know what I mean? I'm in such a big country. So I really like being in London.

It feels like the center of the universe for me. So we're really grateful that you came back to talk to us because, you know, you were one of our early episodes. And, you know, as we've sort of circled round in the three years that we've been here, Like a lot of the things that you talked about are so many of the things that we want to know more about meaning ourselves. And it kind of feels like a lot of the direction of, you know, our podcast has taken us further and further in, you know. And obviously we talk to a lot of different kinds of people. We speak to experts and we speak to celebrities and we've had some incredible people on. But we also wanted to sort of check in with you and see where your journey has led you.

because I think for many people, you know, you were, you know, an early voice in social media presence about mindfulness, about inner work, about this kind of contemplative existence in a way that is now kind of part of the vernacular. And like, you can buy incense at the local, you know, CVS has like, you know, things for mindfulness. That's just me being Indian. I just like inciskins. That's just me being Indian. No, but we're kind of curious, especially like you're at a different point in your, career and in your life. And yeah, we wanted to sort of see where your journey has led you and what's shifted for you. So we can pick up anywhere. You know, our podcast has taken us into the realms of altered states of consciousness and what does it mean to, you know, be connected

to something bigger than yourself. And we've looked at the neural networks underlying the things that make us feel connected. But you don't need to think about the brain to know that it feels different when you understand yourself and other people as part of a larger hole. The Elizabeth Crone episode talked about near-death experiences. And, you know, so we're kind of curious, like, where you're at? Where's your practice? Where's your, yeah, where does your soul feel like it rests these days as the world gets kind of crazier?

It's a great question, I think. I'm trying to think back to now when we spoke. But yes, I think that I. I have been through the very intense meditation practice. I have been through the very intense reading of every spiritual guru. I have been through the very intense program of meeting some of these gurus and spending time with them and really spending hours and hours and days and days and months and months and years and years on sort of inner reflection. I don't like to call it work.

I know some people like to call it work. It doesn't work for me. I really like the word self-reflection. But I also realized that it also became something that was obsessive in nature for the mind to attach itself to. Now you have to get to the point first where you realize your mind is even attached

to see through the illusion of it. But where I am, I think, Ma'am is, I had this moment, I can't remember if I spoke about this last time, But I had this moment where I was sitting on a bench. I was in London. I was in a park. And I was looking at these kids playing in the park.

And I was looking at the sky. And I'm like, am I the eyes that is looking at the sky? Or am I the sky that's looking back at the eyes? And am I the clouds? Who am I that is even the, you know. And I'm looking at these kids. Am I these kids? And I just stopped.

And then I just burst out laughing. And I realized in that moment, whether I'm enlightened or not, the kids will still be playing in the park. Whether I am the greatest guru to have ever lived, the kids will still be playing in the park. If I have never meditated once in my life, the kids will still be playing in the park. And it all made sense to me that this moment in time

does not care what we think about it. It just is. So what I've been really realizing that in this life there's only experience, How you experience is up to you. Whether you experience it with no experiencer, whether you experience it through a very tight, filtered sort of lens. If you live it through a mix of it, it doesn't really matter.

That the only thing that matters truly is experience. And how you get to experience it, some of it is up to you and some of it isn't. Right. you know so it's almost a kind of boring simplistic i'm understanding now i think people experience and think the experience of enlightenment if there is even such a thing is some lights glowing out of your head and you're walking around like i love you and i love this and i love that love can be a big manifestation of waking up i'm not saying that i'm just saying it is so boring when you wake up in and out of the illusion of the things you believe in.

You think for the first moments you're feeling so light and airy, but then when it really settles down, it's just really like having a cup of coffee is as profound as a deep meditative state. Because they both are states of existence from the same place of looking. So then I guess there's only looking. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Miami-Biolix Breakdown to help support the show. I think I'm curious if you can talk more about the tendency. And, you know, for me, it's a very, it's a very Western thing to take something and commodify it, you know?

Put a price tag on it, make a retreat about it, that everybody has to pay thousands of dollars. to go to. But when you talk about that obsession, you know, that you can sort of, it's almost like in your attempt to not have obsessions, right, that can become the obsession? Can you talk about, yeah, can you talk about, and it could be what you experienced, and I'm not asking you to bash anyone in particular or the culture, you know, that many of us live in. But I'm curious if you can talk a little bit about why that, like, why do we do that? You know, what is that tendency? What are we trying to satisfy.

I mean, it's the ultimate game of cat and mouse, right? This whole existence is literally created. Whoever created this game, I don't even know, but it's a brilliant game. It's really a game about discovering who you are. And I'm not saying who you are as in your name and your conditioning. And I mean, underneath that, discovering the nature of your existence. Can you break that down a little more before you go on? Because some people might be like, I don't know, I'm a wife, I'm a husband, like, I work here.

But talk about what you mean when you say, like, understanding yourself and the nature of your existence. See, when you're born, let's start there. Let's start there. Or before. Or before. Let's not get into past lives today, because I don't know much about it. But I will say, you're born. You have some genetic DNA from your father and your mother, obviously.

but you're pretty much born a blank slate. I mean, I think you have some conditioning from past generations, if you believe in past lives, maybe past lives. But pretty much you're blank slate. Now, your name is not yours, it's been given to you. Your religion, you're kind of born into, your cultural understanding, your education. Everything is, think of yourself as a blank slate

that everyone has written a story on. And that has then become you. you as in that's how you experience the world to the filter of the things that are written on your blank wall and if you go to a different if we take the same child in two different parallel universes we could send them to two totally different schools two totally different cultures exactly you'd get a different person so i think if you slowed this down for a second and this is very scary for people to do so i don't only if you feel up to it but really if you you closed your eyes and you looked within and you really

looked at your story as a story, which it is really. Who's looking at it? The looker of the story can't be the story. Anything that's in front of you that you can objectify can't be you. So I think this

this is what I mean when I say the nature of your existence underneath your conditioning and everything you think you are if you're willing to look, I think there can be a lot of freedom. I think if you can just have a little space between who you truly are

and who you think you are, just a little space, I think it brings a lot of peace within you. So to continue where you were going in terms of how this can become an obsession, right? Yes, I mean, I think, I guess your question was,

why does it become an obsession? Yeah. I don't really know. That's why I said, I think whoever designed this game is brilliant, right? But I do think the brilliant thing about this, in my opinion, is everyone wants to go on these retreats and these journeys and that's fine. Again, this is no judgment because your experience is going to be your story. And then when it ends, some other story will come, right?

In your story, you want to get spiritual. You see, I'm having a difficult time. And I want to start it for me. I was really struggling and I wanted to meditate and get better and feel better and everything. Beautiful, beauty, feeling good. Now I'm meditating today. I meditated two minutes. I made it a five minutes,

and I made it ten minutes. I'm feeling good. I've become a spiritual person. All beautiful things. But then you realize one day, you go so far deep into it, you're like, oh, for me to really go all the way,

there is a part of self-sacrifice. There is a part of complete ego surrender. There is a part of me that has to give up the things that are held so tightly, surrender that to whatever may come. it's a total loss of control. So the thing that you were chasing, which is a spiritual, spiritual life, whatever, whatever,

one day starts chasing you. And then a lot of fear sets in if you're not ready. You start running for the hills. You're like, no, no, I only signed up to meditate. I did not sign up to give up my entire personal identity for the, you know, to merge with the universe, whatever that means. So the reason I think people do these retreats and pay money and money, It's another way to run, not to run, sorry,

it's another way to stay away from truly, in my opinion, yourself. I think it's just an easier way to continue to stay in your personal identity. So like, I go to this retreat and I put on this outfit. It's my fancy meditating outfit. Which is fine, yeah. Right. Or you go, or it's, or you go from guru to guru to guru to ashram to ashram to ashram because you're trying to get someone to give you the answer.

Or you read, by the way, I'm only speaking from my personal experience. I'm not speaking this is right or wrong. Or you read enough and you... But man, you're right here. You can't be anywhere else. Right. This is it. And when it's commoditized and turned into products, there's a false linear nature applied.

Yes. As there's a destination to get... get to once you get through the seventh stage of this program, which again, I'm not saying that because there are actual programs that are designed by yogis and yoga that you can't ascend to unless you've actually, if I, if someone, this are, you know, these are deep rooted yogic sciences for 5,000 years. There's a reason there is a linear nature to them because you can't just suddenly go into complete. That's why I find it very, I think it's a little dangerous for people who are not ready

to go into five or ten days of silent meditation. So it's funny you mentioned this because I had been, I thought I had been meditating. I really thought I was doing it. Okay. I wasn't doing it. Because what I was using were very lovely guided meditations, many by very experienced people. know, people who had far more training than I. But what I realized is I was basically just forcing

myself to stop doing what I was doing to listen to the voice of someone else. And that's actually not what underlies meditation in terms of like understanding how to get in touch with yourself. So what I did is I started using a program that actually taught me the principles of meditation, which includes all these dark, scary things you're talking about, meaning when you get quiet, yes. It just is going to be quiet in there and all you're going to hear is your own rumination. Yes. And your self-hatred, your fear, your doubt.

And what you do with that is what I have learned is, for me, meditation. And it is all the things when people are like, I'm too antsy to meditate. I can't stop the voice. that's exactly like that's the human condition. Yes. And some people will just push through it. You know those people who are like, I can't do yoga. It's stupid.

You know, they don't even want to hear it. Yeah. But what I've learned is that that's the kind of practice where I literally had to learn. Yeah. To understand. And that is what will make you go crazy or bring you to a new level of understanding. An acceptance if you sit with that inner world. But I have, I had to learn.

tools. I didn't know about this. And you also, I will, I will say that you had to also go through the first version of it. You know, it's, I don't look back at any of that thing. I think that if you read a self, I read so many self-help books, they were all very helpful. I never talked down about, you want to spend a thousand dollars and go for a week to this thing that makes you feel good? Absolutely. It may not lead you to the thing you wanted to, but it's something. You know what I mean? So, I also don't believe that this lifetime in this story is for everyone to completely go there. I think some people will just live and die in their sort of identity and live their life and it's happy. It's fine. You know, it doesn't have to be, I have to wake up from this illusion

And then I'll begin my life. I mean, like I said, the kids will still be playing in the park. It doesn't matter. You still have to wake up and drink your coffee and go to the bathroom and deal with pain and deal with suffering and then deal with happiness. It is, like I had said earlier, it's that people are identified with the waves of the ocean. And they don't realize that they are actually the ocean. Also waking up is, you know, we have an idea of what waking up is. But it is some people are having it in a profound moment.

Other people have little incremental shifts over time. And in terms of linear nature when you talk about, you know, there are yogic sciences or what we are seeing more and more in the bridge between eastern and western traditions is that the brain does begin to rewire itself. Neuroscience is showing that these practices allow us to make fundamental shifts in the brain. So the person that starts at level one can't just start and go to level 10 because in the process of going from 1 to 10, their brain is actually shifting. part of that process allows them to have a greater capacity capacity to disconnect from the story because it allows room like if you're terrified all the time and your brain is in hyperdrive and you're clinging and trying to figure everything out because you don't feel any sort of safety it's very difficult to start making a change to wake up because you don't have an openness

for something else it can be i mean i think what happened to me in the beginning when i first had my first panic attack on the highway was a small, a small sort of crack in my illusion of what I thought I was. It was suddenly fear

out of nowhere because I had no understanding of who I was. And it was on the highway. And I think that is, I don't think that everyone is ready to experience that kind of thing. Well, and in our culture, what we're told to do is like go to the doctor and get a pill.

Right? When you feel that, oh, that sounds terrible. Let's lower your ability to essentially be disturbed by it. And I don't disparage people who take medication. That's not what this is about. But the notion, you know, and I was talking about this with my kids who are now 15 and 18, you know, like an adult and trying to be, meaning almost there. and the notion of trying to explain when something hurts, that's your body telling you something. And sometimes medicine is needed, right? Sometimes healing is needed. But what's the body trying to tell you? We're not taught to approach the mind that way, right? When something disturbs us, that's exactly what, you know, I think we need to teach, especially the next generation, to think about.

What is this telling you? What are you afraid of? You have to dig, you know? It doesn't just go away. Yes, but it's easy to take a pill. And I don't... I mean, some people take a pill. Some people read 20 books.

I mean, there's many ways to numb this ultimate sort of angst of fear that we feel. I don't know how deep we can get today. But I also want people watching this to sort of understand that it's much simpler it's really much simpler

you don't need a you don't need a book to tell you about how to live your life if I told you today you're not a problem that needs solving just think about that for a moment you're not a problem that needs solving yeah you may have some things you look at them

okay maybe you'll solve them in this lifetime maybe you won't just go out go dancing today Go out, go have that cup of tea with your friend. Go for a nice long walk. You know, it's easy for me to say because I'm not, you know, a single parent with three kids or something like, you know, it's easy for me to say, go take that.

But I mean, we're so used to when I figure this out, then I'll live my life. There you go. Right? So, as opposed to it just being, this is life. The only destination is this body will become manure. I mean, I don't know. You bury the dead, you burn the dead, whatever.

Ultimately, it's the same thing that a fruit is made out of. I mean, it'll just crumble into the ground. You know, it'll become great manure for some more plants to grow out. That's the only thing that we know for sure. Everything else is just, let's see what happens, and try our best at it. So I think that more people need to be loved. I think more people need to be told you're beautiful. I think more people need to be told you look really nice today.

I think people need to make more jokes, spend more time together, not take every second of this kind of finite journey in our story so seriously. And I think people need to really be able to forgive people. I think really be able to forgive yourself for not knowing the things you didn't know. And these are simple things.

You can be awake You can be the most enlightened person in the world But what's the use of it If it doesn't make you a kinder sweeter Happier, more relaxed person Who cares how much Enlightenment you have If you don't

You know We want world leaders To solve world peace yet if our neighbor knocks on a door right now we'll grab a gun and we'll cock it and we'll be like, what do you want? I just want some water. Get out.

The world, there will never be world peace if you're not even willing to call a friend who you haven't spoken to a near and say, I'm sorry. They'll never be world peace if you can't look within and say, you know what, today I made you feel bad because you put on a little weight or whatever, you still look beautiful.

I think the answer to everything starts in here And it starts with the simple things, being kind to your neighbor. You know, we talk about world peace. All these world peace conferences, world leaders giving speeches. But do they have one ounce of peace within them? It doesn't, the world will not change until you yourself don't become more open, more loving, more surrendering, more compassionate, more kind. In the past year, I've gotten into a kundalini yoga practice.

which is its own, you know, it's its own universe. It's very specific and it's a lineage that, you know, has complexity. I'd like to, you know, acknowledge that. And also, you know, the overarching principles are, you know, about realizing the power that we individuals have to be part of a collective, these kind of things you're talking about, love and beauty. And, you know, one of my teachers, who's a very, very serious practice, and a very serious person.

You know, when we're doing some of our mudras, you know, she'll, she'll very, like, over the sound of the music and the chanting. She'll say, like, you're beautiful. Stop speaking poorly to yourself. Don't listen to the messages your parents gave you. You know, like very, and it's very intense. And it's like you're crying, but you're also happy. It's very, very intense.

But what it reminds me of as you're talking is many people find this sort of. source that you're talking about, this source of like love and compassion. Many are finding it in altered states. And I don't just mean psychedelics, but obviously that's a place that people are getting it. Mushrooms, MDMA. Ketamine, like all these things. Sometimes even a glass of rosé. I mean, whatever, some kind of substance. Well, and some people are getting it from holotropic breathwork. Yeah. And people are having experiences from the womb, you know, things that like, even scientists are like, how do we explain, right? Where are these memories? Where are. they stored? How are we accessing them? Right. But what I think about is also this notion of,

you know, in the early days of psychedelic research, right, which was around the time of the Vietnam war, right? What all of these proponents for research were saying was we found a way to make people feel like they're part of a collective whole that could never hurt another person over a political battle, right? For example. And what they said is even marijuana, want to. They were like, people who are stone do not want to fight. They want to sleep, right? They want to have sex and they'd like to eat, right? So when you talk about this, you know, I wonder, is there, you know, is there a place where, where you have some sort of opening into understanding what, what people are seeking in these altered states, whether it's from breathwork or from deep yogic

practice or for many people with, you know, psychedelics? Is this like, is this the thing? Like if you had to say the thing about our existence, right, is to be in touch with love, kindness, generosity. First of all, is that sort of what everybody's seeking? And is there a, do you believe there's a universal kind of coding for us to seek that? Because is that what we're here for? I don't know what we're here for.

I have spent many a moment trying to discover that. I think people are tired. I think people feel tired a lot because I think everyone is exhausted of holding up the illusion of themselves. And I think why we are running away from why we're doing all these things is, of course, we want to feel happy. We all want to feel happy. We want to feel the good chemicals in our body and we want to feel that way.

That's pleasure principle, right? Yeah, but we're not always going to feel happy. There are days we're going to be sad. Pain is going to come. Trauma is going to come. I don't think anyone gets to really escape this in this life. I think we have to experience all of it. I don't think utopia exists within us either.

I think, yes, you can have some euphoric states. But I think that everyone in this life, you will lose someone, you will get sick, you know, things will happen in life. I think that we need to normalize that and stop running away from moments when we don't feel great and say, hey, I don't feel great, you know, okay, I don't feel great. And then it won't last forever. Then you feel sadly better. And then you move on.

I do think that these principles that we talk about love, compassion are very natural to us. I think it's very unnatural for us to hurt someone physically, unless either we've seen it ourselves or it's happened to us, you know. I don't think it's natural for anything in this universe to hurt another without either self-defense or extreme provocation. That being said, just going back to like the normal stuff, you know what I was talking about earlier?

It's easy to say, just be loving when you feel so horrible inside. I do think though, everyone, if you're listening to this, to take a moment to self-reflect. You know, a moment. a moment to put the phone down, a moment to build a practice of silence.

What worries me, I don't know if our generation is the last generation to have known the world without the internet. I don't know, maybe... It is. Yeah. But if your only lens into this world is through another lens,

which is a phone or social media, I mean, I don't understand how you would ever get out of that cycle. Maybe it'll all change. Maybe we'll go back to simplicity. I don't really know. I'm saying arm a lot, I think, because I feel a little self-conscious sometimes talking about peace and love and compassion from a position of feeling peaceful, compassionate and loving. I don't...

What's the self-consciousness? Because you shouldn't feel guilty for feeling that? I wish I could just... I just wish I could... tell everyone in this world truly they're beautiful. You know, and that you're fine where you are. And I wish you could hug everyone and say you're okay. And that you're just a kid.

And everything's going to be fine. And even in the deepest and darkest of moments, there will be a light that will come to you. I've been in those deep moments. I've been in those dark moments. And I think I would much rather you don't spend 20 hours meditating. and go out and have some fun. And throw away all the books for a moment. And just live completely and utterly without listening to anyone.

And just absolutely allow yourself to be yourself. I think there'll be a lot of relaxation in people. I think we're all trying to live someone else's life. And you are just where you're supposed to be. And that's enough. What is pain then? Meaning, from your perspective, is it, you know, it's a potential lesson, it's an open, I mean, I like this notion that even in darkness, right, you know, you can only see light

if there's dark as contrast, right? But I guess that's one of the things I think about, right? That's what a lot of people, you know, a lot of people who are suffering. And there are people who are suffering, you know, the question is like, why, right? Why me? and a lot of people would say, well, why not you, right? What would your sort of perspective on that be? Why do people feel pain?

No, what is that an opportunity for? Well, I mean, of course, pain is an opportunity to find the end of suffering. Right. Right. You said earlier, you don't know what's good if you don't know what's bad, and you don't know what's bad if you don't know what's good. Pain is, I think Rumi said, right, the wound is where the light enters. That is literally...

Leonard Cohen also said everything has a crack in it. That's how the light gets in. Oh, yeah, exactly. So that is absolutely it. I didn't mean to up roomy with Leonard Cohen. No, I don't know. I wasn't going to say anything about it. But hey, I think pain exists because it is a great way in which to look for ease of suffering.

And maybe that's why people do go to all the retreats in the world to ease their suffering. There's something that struck me both when you're talking, and then I want to reflect to you for a second, but when you were talking, teeing up two questions ago, I just found it, it just struck me that like we have the ability to feel love. And yet our, and children express this the most, animals also. Puppies. Puppies, especially. No one is more excited to see anyone than a puppy is. yet where it's almost conditioned out of us and then in adulthood we have to go back and learn to love and as you say tell someone they're loved and give up the anger we have and you know my and

I have been talking and more interested in the in the intersection between science and spirituality because some people can hear what you just shared and they feel it viscerally you know when you said you felt self-conscious what I wanted to reflect back to you is that... Did you want to tell him he's beautiful? Yes, very. But what you're able to do so powerfully is you're able to tap into

a resonance and communicate it. When you say you wanted to hug everyone, when you want everyone to feel they're just okay for a minute, that everything will be okay. Beyond words, which I thought is interesting because you like characters that want to communicate in words, what you're actually doing. What I feel viscerally, somatically,

is that you are sending out a resonance. It's almost this energetic frequency and you're able to tap into it in a way. And so many people are stuck in the illusion. The illusion prevents us from feeling the narrative that we're cycling in because the mind is so powerful and so in control that we're not able to tap into that vibration. We're not able to tap in to let go of anything. And so it takes people who have had the experience, who have been able to re-articulate it back to say, hey, this frequency. exists, try tapping into it, whether that be intellectually and they get caught on something someone says or whether they just feel it and they don't really understand why they're feeling it.

What just struck me is like, why? And now, through the phones, because there's no downtime, you know, I used to wander in the woods. My parents would say, go out of the house and, like, just figure things out. And I remember, I grew up in Toronto in the winter. And I remember walking on snow banks, imagining the little crystals of the snow were little cities that I was like crunching through and imagining what was underneath them and like the imagination had time to roam. Now the kids, they don't have any of that. They don't have that time period. So not only are they distracted by all the information coming in, they've lost an ability to feel because their feelings are being hijacked. So this is a little bit circuitous, I guess, but I think it's important that,

you know, we have people who shine that vibrational frequency that says, hey, wait a second, there is something else out there. Can you feel it in a moment? And also from a scientific standpoint, what we're seeing is that when people do feel okay for a minute, when they're able to pause, when they're able to say someone, I love you, you're beautiful, everything is going to be okay, even in the worst scenario, that this is life and I can't fight life. And we have an acceptance What we see is that the brain changes. The electrodes, the electric activity in the brain goes from red state when it's shown on EMS. EGs.

You know, Mime and I both got our brain scanned recently, and they show the activity. It's a resting state EG. Like, what is your brain like when you're just supposedly doing nothing? They've done these, I think, studies on monks with this month. So they're showing the long-term activity of meditation, but they're also showing that when you get, into the vibrational frequency that you are talking about, that the energetic energy of our systems fully changes. I think it's physical too.

I think physical touch, physical love, holding someone, physically nurturing them, touch. These are all things that release those chemicals that we're talking about. Also, you talked about the ability to tap into that frequency. I think it's very interesting. to discuss that for a moment. Because it's not a trick in the sense our minds are powerful.

But we all have it within us. It's not in a, that the frequency, I'm saying that the, it's not, the beauty of this kind of talk and this kind of self-reflection is, you don't have to be a special kind of guru to experience love and compassion and this lives within all of us.

The reason, I think you're right, that a lot of people don't experience those things is because we hold on to our ideas of right and wrong so extremely tight that if you rub up against my idea, we're going to go at it. You know what I mean?

But if for a moment you're able to look at your likes, your dislikes, your opinions, your conditioning, and just for a moment, let it be. I think in that moment when you let it be, you can find a lot of peace. A hundred percent. And the juxtaposition in contrast is getting worse because we're programmed by algorithms to be in conflict because that is the most profitable way to maintain attention, which is the challenge of the challenge of the... the attention economy, is that there are all these incentive structures. And mine doesn't like

when I go too far down this rabbit hole. You lost me an incentive. But it is important because when we pick up our phones, we don't realize that we are being conditioned by a profit motive that wants to enrage us. And it's fascinating to me that both the same instruments and tools that allow this type of information and frequency to be shared and people to feel something and tap into something is also in the same regard being used to increase the division. Well, what is your algorithm? I mean, my algorithm is puppies and basketball. So I also tell people what it is...

Sorry, I don't tell anyone anything, but I encourage people to... There is a lot of stuff happening in the world, okay? There's always been stuff happening in the world. But you are responsible for how much of it you allow in, And of course, the algorithm also. But I think that there's a balance between what you allow in and what you don't allow in. And you, that responsibility you can take charge of.

What you permit persists. Yeah. I think that, yes, of course, there's more. But there's also on a daily basis incredible love. There are incredible stories of people who are doing things on a daily basis that are nice and loving and nurturing. And we don't hear those stories, obviously, like you said. They're not prioritized.

Exactly. They're not prioritized. But if we just threw everything away, like this whole discussion, if we just threw away, which you won't because it's a great podcast. But everyone has to be responsible for themselves. You can't continuously say it's everyone else's fault but mine.

You know, all this, this, this, this, this, this, the world a scary place. Okay, but are you going to take responsible for not being a scary person? Are you going to take responsibility? Everyone is just so mean. Well, why don't you be the catalyst of love? What, when are you going to take, you don't need a book to tell you that, you don't need a retreat to tell you that, when are you going to take responsibility for yourself and not continuously blame everyone else? And there's, that's the harsh reality of the truth is you have to take this into your own hands. And unless you're willing, no amount of, you know, of books or meditation retreats or anything is ever going to help until you can look within

and say it's time that I become the source of love and not search for it through everyone else. This goes to what you were saying, that everyone has the capability to feel this. Yeah, I actually wanted you to talk a little bit more about that. It's not a podcast if I don't mention giving birth without drugs because it's one of my favorite mind over body experiences. And what I always say is like it doesn't take a super. Superhero, right? Meaning when you look at, you know... We have a bingo game.

John says there's a bingo game that some people are playing. Like, if Maya mentions home birth, they get like a little piece on their bingo card. Because you give birth without any pain medication. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where did you give birth? Oh, well, Fred was born out in the living room. You passed over where he was... You literally walked over where he was born.

No, but what I always say is, you know, and people will say things like, oh, how did you... That's impossible. No, it's really not a superpower. It's your own mind has the ability to control your perception and understanding of the sensations of squeezing a watermelon through a garden hose. And it is not a traumatic, horrifying, you know, experience. But, yeah, it involves mental training.

Extrapolate that. And at the time that I decided to give birth with no drugs, I wasn't even particularly enlightened or even understanding of the deeper path that I was about to embark on, I wish I had known to use those tools on all of the emotional pain that I had experienced. But for me, that was kind of the beginning of my journey. And, you know, it took, you know, a person, I mean, you're basically, you're teaching yourself, it's self-hypnosis, which really means you're learning to go into a deep meditative state where you're changing the waves of your brain. And you're changing the language that you use. So, for example, you don't call it a contraction.

Contraction's a very hard word. It's got an RCT. It's like a k-k, right? We call them surges. So when you're having that, it's like the surge is kind of like, oh, here comes the next surge. But part of that, people would say, that's ridiculous. It's actually not because that's how the human brain is wired. It's wired to understand language, to interpret language, and our bodies will react differently. There's a reason that we tense up when we hear harsh words, right? There's a reason that certain words are more soothing. There's a reason that babies say the consonants, as one of their first things they say it's because that's what forms around a breast to nurse. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, right? That's mother, right? That's that connection. So when you said

that it's not, this isn't something that you need to go up on a mountain for. And you can find it on a mountain, right? You still have to come down and live here. You still have to come down and here and it was Buddha that's, right? I think it was Buddha that said, believe nothing that I say, even if you hear it from me, if it doesn't ring true to you, it's not your truth, right? But this notion that we all have this capability, it's not a superpower. You don't need to be from India. You don't need to take a class. You don't need to do ayahuasca. No, I'm joking. I'm just being But if you look at it, like, this is the human experience, right? We're all spiritual beings having a physical experience, right?

This likely is not, in my opinion, this is not the only time your soul is going to be here. I just don't believe that. But even if it is, you're having this physical experience, you're in this body, which is just a vessel. You know, it's just a vessel. When my father passed away and I looked at the bed and I saw, I said, that's the vessel that was my father. It wasn't my father. It's the body that this brain interpreted as that's dad, right? But that's not where he was. That's not where the lessons that he taught me are, right? There's a self that we all have. And it's not a superpower to get there.

That's what you were doing when you were, when you had separated yourself from your mind. when you look at your mind and you see you're not in your mind and you can actually just sit here and look or look at your thoughts there's not much going on in my head right now I'm trying to find something but it happens to people when they come on our podcast

but look sadguru right now is just just recovering in hospital because he had a horrible brain bleed yes sadguru for four weeks had the most he had a brain bleed can you imagine the intensity, the pressure. The pressure of pain that he was feeling had to be rushed in after four weeks of

brainbeating because he had a second one because the pain was so intense, said, I have a meeting at 6 p.m. today, so I can't do surgery. Goes to his meeting at 6 p.m. says, I have an 8 a.m. breakfast. I'll come after breakfast. He's hopped up on pain meds. He's not against allopathy or anything. He's a great believer in the mix, the amalgamation of science and spirituality. But extreme pain, but not attached to him. his body. Right? So I think

that everyone has this ability. So for some people this just sounds like Hocom. Right? I get it. By the way, I get it. Doesn't matter. You have the ability to do it. He actually says that our body is the greatest

creator of... Chemical factory is. Yeah. It is. And tuning, so for me, I think about tuning, tapping into, what are we tapped into? If this the greatest chemical factory of the world and our perception is the guide to what chemicals it should create and the mind is a co-creator in that the perception leads to the thinking which leads to either I'm happy and I feel love or I'm angry and upset all the time and you're going to

create whatever chemicals you want then you are responsible there are inputs that are impacting us but ultimately I'm responsible for where I tune my gauge agreed 100%. simpler than that even. I think if we all were able to see the elusive nature of our thoughts, like our thoughts are not real. I think if we can really just tap into just this much that your thought is not reality.

It doesn't exist anywhere. It's just a thought, right? Most people are, their reality is their imagination, not their reality. Right? Most people are just living in their imagination. because the thoughts are creating the reality. But a thought is not real.

Where is it? It's not real. It's not tangible. A thought may have a tangible effect on your body. But in itself is not a tangible thing. And I don't know how many thoughts we have a day. Some more than, yeah. A lot.

But I think that if you can just look at it and realize it's not real, it's not reality. Reality is this. Even the effort to try to be present, in itself is not being present because that's a thought. If you just stopped everything right now, you're right here. You can't be anywhere else.

This is it. That's what I said earlier. I started this whole conversation by saying where I am right now is not trying to stay present, but really just living life and experiencing it as Kunal and seeing what happens. That goes back to the linear nature of things where yes, you can't go from one necessarily to 10,

but as you get towards wherever it goes. For people only listening, I'm kind of motioning to the right side, starting on the left going to the right. It kind of folds back in on itself. Yeah. Adi Ashanti used to say that, you know, you go up this mountain and you get your enlightenment, but you have to come down the mountain and live here

for you to truly be sort of, for your awakening to be complete. because there's no point of doing it if you're not going to... I mean, the ultimate test if you truly are waking up or not is how you deal with other egos around you. So I was just going to say, when I think about friends who've studied in ashram

or, you know, who have gone to a monastery or, you know, I would imagine that there's a certain ease that comes with not having to deal with other people. Like, I feel like if I didn't have to interact with anyone, I could be really peaceful. I agree. Right?

But the notion of, you know, how do I behave with grace? You know, also when you're managing small people, right? Or interacting with people who you are not in control of their behaviors, feelings, thoughts, right? What I was thinking is when you talk about this sense of, you know, it's a sense of expansiveness that even if you're in pain, even if something is hard, to have this knowledge of this other part of you, right? It's your higher self that I'm going to be okay. For me, that's the place where I've been able to not shout at my children, literally, to not snap at this one as much.

I get it. Because the notion is I may be in pain. I may be struggling. You may be struggling. But if I can like zoom back, you know, if I can shift that lens and say, we're in a moment, right? This is a hard moment. This is a challenging moment.

Or you woke up on the wrong side of the bed because you're a teenager and I'm not in control of that, right? To be able to say, there's more than this. I don't live and die on this breakfast. But what you're explaining right now is wisdom.

You're speaking from a place of wisdom. I may be contradicting myself because earlier I said it's not the work. It's not. also easy. I mean, if it was easy for everyone to wake up and walk around

and be peaceful and forgiving, then everyone would be walking around like a Buddha, right? But it takes a lot of self-sacrifice and self-surrender at the cost of maybe yourself even feeling.

Like, it took a lot out of me to call that person. It took a lot out of me to forgive that person. It took a lot out of me to not shout back at that person. That does take practice. That's what people, and that's what people want to know.

They want to know how do I get there? And I'm not saying you have to have the answer. If you do, please share it. But like that's what people want to know. Like, how do I get there? And that's where you can try so hard to get there, right? But I think that it's not, I think it's manyfold. I think some of that is getting to know your true nature through self-reflection.

I think some of that is when, you stop holding your story so tightly, you'd in general become a less confrontational person because it doesn't matter if your opinion is not really heard. Yeah, can you talk more about what does it mean to hold on tightly to your story? I mean, I'm sure I'd do it, but can you define it? I guess I mean, right now you're living your life as Mayam, and Mayam has these thoughts and these beliefs.

And through that filter and through that filter of your likes, your dislikes, your beliefs, your opinions, through that filter you're seeing the world almost like fragmented. That's why people do drugs because it opens it up. It fragments their mind. I mean you can do it other ways.

Yes. But that's why people come home and pour themselves a glass of whiskey or whatever it is. Well, that to me... Okay, maybe... Sorry, I'm using the wrong chemical. You're right.

Right. You're talking about psychedelics. That to me makes this feel like you don't have to hold on so tight. Okay, that's true. But it's still really the filter. I mean, numbing to me is still filtered. I understand.

Yeah. But to open it up, I guess going back to that is, you're right. But looking, when I say holding on to that story, is your belief that that story is real. There we go. Right. Your belief is, this is me.

Right. And then there's all of those other people and all those other things. And that could be bad things or good things, right? It could be anything. But if anything... is in conflict with me, who you take yourself to be, which is just a story,

psychological story, then there's instant conflict. If you are in, if someone is not in congruence with your story, then there's instant conflict. So, that's what I mean by holding on to that tightly. I'm not saying,

it's a fine line here. And I just want to go on to one thing here, because a little, lot of people get into spiritual and they say, I've got to destroy my ego. I got to get rid of my personality. It's nonsense. Okay? The only thing trying to destroy your ego is your ego, by the way.

Because if you truly look at it, there's nothing to destroy, right? It just is. MC Yogi says you have to surrender it. Yeah. Or surrender it. Right. But is the surrender... I can't go into this today.

Because I can't go into, is the surrenderer than the one being surrendered? No, I think that... Oh, okay. it's very tricky to get into perceiver and perceived and surrender and who's surrendering what and are you the surrenderer or you are the one being surrendered it's very tricky but the act of breaking ego is an ego act as well is my point that buddha had a personality Jesus had a personality all the enlightened beings in the world have had personalities it's just that they never took their personality so seriously they surrendered their personality for the better of all the people in the world to say hey i am you and you are me.

It does not mean you don't walk this world without any personality. You know, it's this nonsense. This is what it is. I think we're all afraid. All of us, what are we protecting? Let's just go into this. What are you protecting? Someone walks down the street and says hi to you.

Right. Well, in LA, sometimes you're protecting your physical, your physicality because it's become a crazy place. But what are we so afraid of giving up if we say we're sorry? What is it that we're so afraid of if we say to someone, I forgive you? Right. So being right about something. That's a good example, right? That's a great example. I'm right. He should apologize first. He hurt me more than I hurt him. Whatever. What are you protecting?

That's, well, I mean, you're protecting your ego, but yeah. You're protecting what you think is yourself. Right. Because you've never looked in and said, who am I? Right. But I guess it goes back to that. Sure. Once you realize that the thing that you're protecting in itself is really just an illusion, then life becomes quite easy to not constantly walk around like you're at war with someone because you're no longer holding up the thing that everyone's so tired because they're holding up a thing

that doesn't have in its own innate nature and existence. So is there a tendency though, and maybe I'm asking this as a female person? And not that men can't feel it too. Is there a fear, though, that I shouldn't ask you, I have a fear of being a doormat, of being so loving, giving, generous, open that I get taken advantage of. And that's probably, there's something there as well. But where's that line? Am I the only one?

No, I think that's what you, I think that's what the question. You're answering the question of, anyone? No. I think you're answering the question of what it is that you're afraid of, right? But I guess I could pause it then to you, back to you and say, who's afraid? Right. Mm-hmm. I mean, who is the one that feels fear?

And I'm already thinking there's a story to that, right? Women get taken advantage of, right? Or this habit, meaning I have a story about why I have a fear of something that also may not have even happened to me, right? But those are the stories we hold, right? Do you know what I'm afraid of? I have seen things arise when you become more defensive than open. And sometimes that is. And vice versa.

Absolutely. And sometimes that's physical safety. Sometimes it's an anticipation of a perceived threat based on something that's outdated because we're all meaning making machines. We can't help but try and like. in our survival, we anticipate risk based on the past. Can't help it. So part of the narratives that we're holding onto are technically ingrained in us to help us survive, find resources, avoid lions and threats, avoid in the present day, avoid. Social media trolls. Modern day lions.

But mostly emotional pain from our past that we may not know is there, minds that then we bump up into and then we're trying to prevent against that. And so when you talk about pain, actually that pain is the biggest opportunity to show where the landmines are. Yeah. I mean, again, it goes back to sort of self-inquiry. I want to touch about something you said earlier that I thought was very lovely, which is you said, animals are very pure in that way and as are children, very pure in that way. I think it's because that sense of self or that sense of story has not been formed. So, solid. It has not cemented itself

as it has when we're adults. And because that it's become cemented, then we spend the rest of our life trying to unsemented. So it gets cemented. And then if you go again far enough on this journey and if you see people who are truly have done a lot of deep thinking and really been on a journey like this, they almost are like childlike.

They're very like, I feel like I'm the best sort of when I'm really in just flow with everything is mostly when I'm the most open. and childlike and pure and not so ingrained in my idea of the way I think things should be. That's creativity also.

That's what Rick Rubin says. That's what flow state is, right? It's when we play in that open, you know, space. I mean, also then you're an actor, right? We literally play for a living. We play or we just torture ourselves with self-inquiry. I mean, you know, I think that... I think acting is...

acting is Osho said this and no matter where you stand on Osho he said some very beautiful things and one of the things that he said and I'm going to butcher this so please forgive me if you are a big fan of Osho and you know this quote but he said acting is the most

spiritual of all jobs because it's the self playing a character that they totally believe in that you are creating a character that you have completely believed in and you're acting like them

in front of society. I mean, I believe in my characters. I've played more than I believe in myself. Right? Because you're living in a box. But that's because you're neither. You're not the character and you're not the... I'm saying that you're...

Right. The character that you believe is mime and the character that you believe in your acting world is still rolls through the source of creation. But Jonathan was asking me that. He sometimes asked me deep questions about acting that I intuitively often have answers for even though I'm not classically trained.

You know, you are... Doesn't matter. I know, but just I'm saying. It can be a crutch sometimes. Well, right. Well, so, you know, sometimes Jonathan will ask me things like that. And, you know, I... What did I ask?

Well, no, we've talked about method and what it means. And, you know, I'm very interested in method. Obviously, from... For those of you don't know what method acting is, it's when you literally breathe and live, the character when you're off stage as well. So if you ask for a cup of tea as the character you're playing and he speaks like this,

then you get the coffee like this. You know, that's sort of what it is. And, yeah, method actors, you know, often sort of act the role for the extent of the time that they're creating that role, both off and on screen. It must be a joy to be around. Have you ever done that, come up? Not necessarily.

No, I do a lot of the work off screen, and then I find myself a lot more healthy when I'm, when they yell cut, I'm able to just hang out with the crew and be part of this supportive of environmental people are for me. But it doesn't matter when the camera is rolling, whether you're truthful or not truthful, that's all that matters. Well, and that's sort of what, what, you know, we've spoken about in terms of states that we possess and states that we inhabit. You know, when I'm in a role, I have to think. You know, you think like that person. You think like this character. How do you move? And what do you, how do you stand and how do you posture? And I think especially for us on Big Bang, we both had characters that had a very specific kind of posture about them, right?

Like a very specific look that was like part of, you know, our characters. And so there's this notion of, you know, I don't mean to be existential about it, but like, who are we? Right. I inhabit this character. And if you do a film, right, you get a longer chunk of time. But if you work for 12 years on a show, that's, you know, that becomes who you are. But I had a question that's a little bit out there, but I'm just sort of curious.

there are people who, you know, there are many modalities for healing that more and more people are talking about. Jonathan and I have tried all of them twice. But the one that I wanted to ask you about came up when you were talking about your story. And there are people who believe in ancestral trauma. Of course. That you are holding, you know, you're holding either pain or sometimes joy, that you're holding an experience for the generations of, you're holding.

that came before you. And, you know, this used to be this sort of very out there concept, you know, that healers would throw around and past life regressions try and tap into it. But, you know, what... It's not so out there. It's out there for the Western world. But, I mean, this is stuff we grew up with. Okay, so that was what I was going to say is that it, it sort of, it often takes, you know,

it takes the neuroscientists to be like, where is there a thing? And where is memory? And how do we hold it? And what is your DNA holding and mitochondrial DNA? And, you know, the West loves to take. things that, you know, Eastern traditions have known for thousands of years and be like, we figure it out. It's got a name. And here's the academy where you can learn it too. But maybe you can, can you talk a little bit about sort of what your either personal

understanding of that is and sort of where it fits? I don't really know, to be honest. I can't speak on it as any kind of expert. I think that if you look at my family, I grew up and my father hated taking elevators to all buildings. I hate it. It gives me a lot of anxiety. Escalators. Anything. My brother has the same thing.

We feel very disoriented in sort of open space. I feel more so than I can't speak again from my family. But escalators in malls where everything is open. I feel very disoriented. Big airports that are full of glass. If I don't see a boundary, I feel very physically disoriented. This got even worse after a big got where I started, I can't say I started waking up. But when I really began to understand what was happening with me,

I still feel very disoriented if I'm in an open space without any boundaries. I don't know where that comes from. I think if I look at my, I think my grandfather didn't like heights. I mean, you know, my dad doesn't like claustrophobia. My dad had a panic attack in Las Vegas because it's just too claustrophobic. I have an aunt who's claustrophobic. So I think some of that physical manifestation of trauma does come from your DNA. I spent a long time trying to get over it and then I just said, forget it.

I mean, if I don't climb Mount Everest in this lifetime, what's the big deal? So is that, would you put that under the umbrella of ancestral trauma? Probably. Okay. But also there was a great freedom in saying, if I don't go to the top of the Burj Khalifa in this lifetime, big deal. If I don't go to magic space mountain or whatever. magic cars. What's the roller coaster place? I don't know. If I don't go to some roller coaster

to prove that I have, you know, I spent like years and years. Like, I'm going to defeat my fear. And I was like, yeah, I just, I just won't do. I mean, so what's the big deal? You save yourself a lot of time and waiting in lines. You don't have to go to the roller coasters. Yeah, exactly. But I also do other things that someone might feel fearful about. Like standing in front of 30,000 people at Comic-Con. So would you, so can that translate to emotional things? Because I've, you know, my feeling is I'll meet with any healer, see what they have to say, take what I like, leave the rest.

I'm curious, you know, I've had somebody do a past life regression. I don't know. Like, I can be open to it. I can answer her questions to the best of my ability. So that's sort of a question. Like, I've had people say like, oh, you're holding, you're holding, this is not yours. I've had people say that to me. Yes.

You know, this is not your. So what is it? Is it? I mean, I'm not asking you to fix it. No, no, but I agree. I agree. I think that 100% it is, of course, something that comes in. Right.

I mean, your dad gives a sperm and your mom gives an egg and that has intelligence in it. That's probably where it comes from. And then they had, you know, from their family had that intelligence gets passed on from bodies to bodies all the time. That's probably where it comes from. But can you, where do thoughts come from? What is a thought? Where did they exist? Wait, I'm hung up on the roller coaster thing. Because here's the thing.

How do you know, like, how did you decide? Like, or how do we know, and I mean, oh, this is open to anyone. How do we know what is, this is something I should work through? Because it's a block that represents something else. And how do we decide to be like, I'm going to take my hands off this? I have an answer. I want the answer. I think that it's, I can only speak from my, when I say,

started having panic attacks on the highway, which started this whole journey about 10 years ago. I had to work to get back on the highway because not being on the highway was impeding my life. Okay. Right? Now, if I still don't love it because it still has trauma in the body, I'll do it if I have to and whatever. And then I do it and it's fine. It's not a big deal. But if I don't go on a roller coaster for the rest of my life, it doesn't really matter to me.

You know, by the way, people who have severe fear of flying. Yeah. If that is really impeding your life completely, I think it's something to look at. And for some, because you may realize I have physical trauma from this, but it's not a big deal. I have emotional trauma from this, but it's not a big deal. It's okay. It's okay that I have a fear of heights. It doesn't make me, in a way, a lesser person.

You know, some people choose not to fly, and then they, I don't mean to get sad, but they isolate. And they believe that that's a solution. But I'm saying that's what I mean. But objectively, I'm not allowed to say, you're isolating, that's not healthy. I think it's important to look at yourself and say, hey, is this really getting in the way of my life? And if it is, then you should look at it. And I think looking at it is also the realization that it's not as scary as your mind is making it out to be. But I guess that answers, for me at least answered the question of if it's impeding your life,

take a look at it. Right. If it's something that's trivial in your life. But yeah. Exactly. Well, there's two things that you said about characters. You talked about knowing how they stand, how they think, how they would act. Does having that knowledge help you know yourself more when you step out of a character?

What do you think? I mean, it's funny because I sometimes feel, you know, more comfortable on a stage than not. you know, there's, again, there's a safety. And if you put me in a box, like, because I wondered how much do each of us spend time? I don't think about how I stand until I have a pain in my hip and then I go to the physical therapist and they're like, oh, you're leaning this way. But like, as a actor, you're like, oh, my character leans this way. Therefore, I wondered, as you step out of that role and back into yourself, do you spend the same amounts of time thinking about how you think, how you feel, how you act, how you stand as much,

much as you do the character. I think most actors do have a sense of self-awareness. I think going back to what Osha said, I think he said something, it's the most spiritual because you're playing a character, but you're aware you're playing a character. So I think there is something to be said about a lot of actors being quite self-aware. Yeah, but yeah, you're forced to think about it in a different way.

It's more contrived. I want to say, go back to what you said about being on stage and sort of forgetting, there is something very sort of meditative about acting. because it is an act of self-forgetting, where, which if you've never experienced a deep state of meditation, you don't really know what it is to be completely self-forgotten, where you are just the thing before you put on the thing, right? I remember in college, the reason I became an actor

because I was doing a play, I think may have spoken about this last time, but I was doing the rose tattoo, and I was playing the lead Italian guy because I was the closest to an Italian-looking guy in Portland. Oregon. But I remember putting on a silk shirt in a scene and it was, it's not it wasn't real silk but it looked like silicon. I had to

act as if it was real silk. I remember doing that scene and for one second I was I was that person putting on that silk shirt. It was like half a second of complete truth. And it was now when I look back

a very deep awakening moment I didn't know at the time. But I think there's something about acting that helps us self-forget. And all of this really is kind of shaving down the grip that our psychological story has on us. And I think that's why I find acting very meditative because it's very much about self-forgetting. It's beautiful. That is beautiful. I mean, I'm struck by it and it kind of leads to my other point, but maybe it's maybe.

Maybe not. We'll see. When you talk about truth and finding truth, my hypothesis is that that truth exists as a vibrational frequency that the artist taps into. True. And when someone is finding a character, I actually think maybe that character exists somewhere and the actor is finding it and co-creating it, like plugging in to something that already exists, which then when I think about. the nature of ancestral, and I don't even think about it as trauma. I think about it almost as the ancestral memory. Energy energetic memory, maybe? Exactly. So when we think about an experience, and we have, we come from the lineage of experience. When we are born, we tap into that as like a network frequency and we can't help that. So then it goes to sort of, well, where does that

exist around us. And as we forget more about our story, the next layer is maybe to become more aware of these energetic, not entanglements, but frequencies that are around us. And I don't want to use the matrix because it has a, it's a loaded term. We're sitting on a spinning planet in the middle of infinite space. I mean, it's probably all around us. All around us. Exactly. Yet we're thinking about, oh, why did my mother-in-law yell at me today? I don't know why I said mother-in-law. I love my mother-in-law. But I mean, I find that,

you know, it's a complicated relationship sometimes. But it's just going back to the beginning, like, this stuff is,

it seems so, I think everyone is just used to talking about it. Right? There's just so much talking going on. And there's, there's a great teacher who just tell the spiritual students, just shut up.

Just like, shut up. Just stop, you know? Just for one, moment what happens if you in this moment just stopped all your inner doing still here it's a good pause you know you're still here i'm not saying stop all your inner work i'm saying that you're going to spend your whole life trying to figure it out and you realize in your last breath that you didn't spend one moment living figuring out your life is not living yes there's a certain amount of that you do having a cup of tea with a friend is living.

Yeah, I mean, to me it really feels, I mean, to use a trite, you know, kind of aphorism, it's like it really is about the journey and not the destination, right? Meaning if the goal is, I'm going to get fixed, I'm going to get healed, I'm going to figure it all out. And then I'm going to begin. Correct. Then I'm going to live. You'll always just go from one figuring out to another figuring out to another figuring out to another figuring out. Right.

Because it's here right now. That's it. That's it. And like I said, this moment does not care what you think about it. This is the only thing that's going on. I don't know. Maybe other things going on in your head or something, but like this is it. Jonathan would love to talk about the collective consciousness and how you can just slice through time like a seven-layer cake. And every other moment is also existing and it's in the Akashik records. But we'll have to save that for another time. I just wrote you. This is a very nice energy to wrap up on because we're all just being here. Kunal, thank you so much for being. here. Do you want to give a shout out

to anything in particular that people should look for? Oh, for my career wise? Oh. Oh, you know, I just did a movie on Netflix called Space Man. It's already out by the time you hear this. But that's a great movie for some of the stuff we're talking about, which is

everything has a beginning and everything has an end. And yet here we are despairing. So don't despair. Thank you so much for coming back to visit. Thanks, guys.

Thank you. That was nice. Our friend came back. I mean, we could just stop the podcast right there, but it feels like there's too much to talk about still. Says you. Well, what people should know is Jonathan sometimes loves the list. I made one for today before Knoll got here.

And Jonathan was like, I don't know that we need the list. But I just want to say I made the list anyway. And I did pretty good in getting him to talk about a lot of things. that we wanted to talk to him about. Altered states of consciousness. Elizabeth Crone, near-death experiences, flow state,

energy body, but I hit on them. We didn't really talk to you about Elizabeth Crone. He loved that episode. He's a huge fan of our podcast, apparently. Apparently, he,

I don't know. He started quoting episodes. I was like, what? What's happening? He really likes it. I think that he said our podcast is his favorite

on the internet. He did say that. We didn't get it. We had stopped down because I wanted to give him a respectful time to talk about things off camera. So I was like, Travis, let's not record. And then he's like, your podcast is the best one. No one's going to believe us now. We need him to say it. Maybe he'll send us a little video. He was talking about listening to the

Michael Singer episode on train. He said to Manchester. To Manchester. He was going, like you do. I was struck by something he said about people feeling fatigued. Yeah. And I do. I think people feel a lot of overwhelm I hear. And I'm like, where is that coming from? Where is it just that we're constantly distracted? Is it just because we're cycling through? Like, why are humans in general feeling overwhelmed? But like right now, today, yes, it's the news cycle, you could say.

Yes, it's the amount of time we're spending, staring at screens. I think the world is a little bit on fire. I think if you live in America and have survived the last, you know, decade or so of political ups and downs and complexity, no matter what side you're on of anything, it's been an exhausting period. And I know people are like, it's always exhausting. History's crazy.

I think these last dozen years or so have been kind of a doozy. Yes, and also in the 50s as it was going into the 60s that people were like, the world is on fire and the kids are crazy and they're growing their hair out and they're smoking marijuana

and Reefer Madness is going to... And now everything's legal and everyone is stoned all the time. Everything's fine. The Cold War. was not a pleasant time period. The world was going to blow up. Everything was...

No, I think the immediacy of our access to news. I think the fact that, you know, we've lived... We now live through, for example, presidencies and political processes that play out on our phones. Like, we know too much in some ways. And we also have opinions about everything. And we are absolutely living in a culture

of constantly hearing what, in many cases, the most obscene, vile people think about us, about hot dogs, about people's hairstyles. Like, the internet is the place where people who previously had prickly thoughts in their head get to spit them out and amplify them by the thousands and tens of thousands and hundreds of thousands. The internet also does many amazing things and connects people in wonderful ways, but a lot of people have a tremendous amount of angst about the things that exist on the internet when they try and have opinions, walk down the street, you know, like anything. I like when you say angst instead of angst.

It's got an omelout, people. Also, when we think about this in terms of frequency, the frequency of love, the way that he was able to just tap in to say everything. What do you mean when you say frequency? Like, why do you, how do you choose to use that word? Because I thought when you said frequency, I thought you meant the speed at which information comes to us and the number of times we have to experience things. You're talking about a different frequency. I'm talking about an energetic frequency.

And I use frequency because I don't know what else to call it. It couldn't call it resonance. You can call it vibrational tone. What is it? You can call it. What it feels like? At times, he has an ability to drop into a way of speaking and an optimism and knowledge that I do believe. transcends words and makes and like makes people feel it hits them viscerally how does that happen it's the tone

of his voice for sure it's the speed at which he's speaking but it's also for me a truth and a resonance in the words that he's using that has a wisdom to it and that if we are here as as a experiment to quote unquote know ourselves to have the experience of feeling love and connection in a physical form, which is a cascade of chemicals that may not exist anywhere else in the intergalactic universe that we know of, at least, and that if there are aliens out there, they're probably not in physical form. So we have this unique experience as human beings in this physical form to feel horrific pain, but also euphoric pleasure. And I'm not even talking about, you know,

ecstatic pleasure or sexual pleasure. I'm talking about like a love and depth of emotion that is uniquely the human experience is uniquely human. And in order to do that, you need to, as Jule says in her episode, you can either be in dilation or you can be in contraction. And the level of opening that happens when we feel like there is hope, when we feel like no matter what we're going through, it's going to be okay. When we can slow down the narrative, the speed of our thinking,

that starts to be an altered state of consciousness. We talk about these magical ways of getting outside of ourselves and accessing other realms and meeting God and sitting on a bench as we talked about in the struck by lightning episode. But simply, you know, in the moments of this interview where he really starts to deal hope, you know, hand out optimism. He's tapping into a frequency that resonates, that can be felt,

and that can literally hit someone and change them. And I feel like that is so powerful. And when you spend time in that frequency, you are not tired because you are uplifted. And that's for me what connects back to this notion of we are fatigued. We are fatigued, yes, because we are spending too much time on screens when we're not out in nature enough, but more so we are not giving ourselves enough time spent in a sense of wonder,

and a sense of optimism, in a sense of gratitude and prayer. And when we do get time to do that, our entire sense of self, our quote-unquote, energy bodies, are uplifted. And we have a vitality to us that can transcend the more taxing, aspects of modern day life. And I think that's well said. And I think it's also different for everyone. And I think that's what's sort of the challenge

is that that may work for some people and it may not work for others or it may not work in the same way. Some people need a different messenger. You know, some people need a different message. So that's why it kind of takes all kinds. And I think that's sort of, you know, I think what one of the things

that I really took from that is like, you have to find it. You have to find whatever works for you. 100% it takes all kinds and everyone needs to find that thing. But fundamentally, if there are only two states, I am contracted or I'm dilated, there is fear or love. The more time and whoever gets you to a sense of love, of optimism, of potential hope, of feeling that whatever situation you are in has a level of both acceptance where you are

not fighting against the exercise and that there is some light at the end of whatever tunnel you're in, whatever it is that you can access that helps you look at the sky a little bit more. Look at the person across from you and have appreciation for them. Look at even someone you're annoyed with and reduce the annoyance into acceptance. I'm trying actively right now. No, but I think that that makes sense to me. So that makes sense to me because also, you know, I didn't grow up with like a God is love concept, meaning that's just not a language that is used in the tradition that I come from.

And I would meet, in particular, I would meet often Christian people who were like, God is love. And, you know, there's a meeting that I go to that's held. It's a non-religious meeting, but it's held in a church. And there's this huge science. Like, God is love. And I'm like, what is that. But that's kind of what we're talking about is that, even if you believe in God, don't believe in God. I don't care. If the notion of what is, bigger than you is something hopeful and it's something that you can try and achieve with goodness in your heart for the ultimate good. Love is on that path. Hope is on that path. That's what religious people would turn into. Like, that's God. That's divine. Whatever gets me there,

that's what I want. And, you know, I've talked about, I recently watched the very complicated and painful documentary about the Harry Krishna movement, and there's a lot of complexity that the documentary deals with. But the notion of the Harry Krishna movement was, you can be high all the time without drugs if you are constantly tapping into, as you say, this vibrational frequency. We're all love.

Everything's love. Everything you do. If it is directed towards positivity, hope, and love, that's where we all get to live. It's a choice, you know? Can I tell you a story that I've never really spoken about? on this podcast? Sure. You've asked me actually to talk about this and I have shied away from it quite a bit. You asked me, how do I know things or when I, you know, what is energy and when did I explore that?

And I think I've talked sort of around it, but there's something about my experience of being introduced to it that feels particularly applicable to this episode. And actually, it's strange because I began to think about it before, about a day and a half ago, I started thinking about this story and I was like I have no plans on sharing it today but it felt like it started to come into my awareness and I started thinking about it before today's episode so when I was 17 after a family tragedy when I was 14 three years had passed my family was a big wreck I was extremely extremely depressed shut down emotionally totally distracted couldn't really function in normal like I couldn't pay attention at school I was very very still in trauma

I went to a four-day class that was a Reiki learning how to do Reiki, but I since learned that it wasn't only that. There was another modality. There were other learnings to be had there. And for the first three days, this woman was like, we all have energy in our bodies and she's, I'm not hearing any of it. It's a four-person class. It's from a Friday through a Sunday. and sorry, a Thursday through a Sunday, a Thursday night, a Friday night, all day Saturday, all day Sunday.

Thursday night happens and I'm like, I never want to go back there. This is all nonsense. Like the first time we met. Friday, I go, same sort of experience, but there's hands-on work. And hands-on work is literally you lie on a massage table, fully clothed, and people go place hands on your body in different hand positions, and the theory is that energy is supposed to move through one person. They're supposed to learn how to tap into a universal source of energy,

pass that energy through to someone else who is receiving on the table. And that energy taps into your body's natural ability to heal, it says, and it helps move things through. It's more complicated than that, but that's the high level. I'm like, I don't understand energy. I don't know what these people are talking about. Saturday comes, same thing. Sunday is happening and I'm the practitioner with someone on the table and my hands are on the...

So wait, hold on one second. So you go through all these days, do you like raise your hand and say like, this is bullshit? Or you're just like going through the motions doing your best or like hiding that you don't really get it? Like what's... So here's the context. My sister had worked with this woman. My sister had extreme physical disability to the point where she couldn't walk up stairs. Your sister was experiencing some physical challenges. From the time my sister was 11 to the time

she was in her early 20s, she had extreme physical challenges. She was at one point diagnosed with fibromyalgia, which at that time, which is almost, it's going to be 25 years or more ago, 30 years ago. Half the doctor said it's all in your head. Half the doctor said it's an actual condition. She went through endless doctors before they found any sort of diagnosis for her. And she was often in chronic and debilitating pain, seeing physiotherapist, doing every type of exercise. And when my brother's accident happened, she was in a wheelchair. Her level of chronic pain increased drastically. So there was a emotional component to what she was going through.

And she worked with this woman as part of her. part of a larger life-changing, many life-changing things that she did. And she was like, look, Jonathan, you're in a bad state. Our parents were willing to pay for me to go to this woman and to learn this practice. I had seen the changes that my sister had had. And part of me, my kid brain was like, oh, there's some sort of magic that can happen. And so I decided I'm going to go to the class and I'm going to learn. and I kind of thought I was going to get like,

press this part of the body and this magical thing was going to happen or say this phrase and this thing unlocks and all of a sudden pain goes away. And in order to get my parents to agree to pay for me to do the course, I had to promise that I would stay the whole course because they knew I had a tendency to like dismiss things very quickly. So I don't raise my hand. I'm like, I'm stuck here because I've committed.

to it, so I'm just going to kind of grit and bear it and get through it, and at the end I'll never come back again. And what happens on Sunday, as I'm the practitioner... You're chosen to be the person putting your hands on someone else? Yeah, it's, again, four-person class.

We've all taken turns. I've had my hands... Have you felt anything when anybody... I have not felt anything yet. I'm... Would someone else put their hands on you? Yeah, and I don't feel anything... You just lay there.

I just lay there now. To give context to this, I don't feel anything because I am cycling in my head and my head will not stop. I don't know this at the time. But my willingness to feel anything has been totally shut down because... Like literally anything. Anything at all. Right. Because the trauma that I was running from and the sadness that I had not processed were so strong that to allow myself to feel anything at all would open me up to a well of emotion that I was not willing or able to deal with.

But in that Sunday, my hands are over someone's eyes. So imagine someone's sitting on this table in front, a lying on the table in front of me, face up. Your hands are on their eyes. Like you're cupping their eyes. Cpping their eyes. Fingers down. Gentle. Barely touching, just resting but barely touching.

And all of a sudden, in the center of my palm, I feel a pulse. It starts to radiate. And it's an unmistakable feeling. My hands start to get hot and they're vibrating. And I kind of look at the teacher and the teacher looks at me. an assistant as the third person and then myself and another student. And it was an unmistakable feeling and that lasted for a while. What's a while?

The session was maybe an hour. I start feeling it 10 minutes in. I moved through different hand positions and each time my hand gets more and more intense and has this vibratory quality to it. There is an energy moving through me. And the thing that you say, while you're putting hands on is that I allow myself to leave my baggage at the door to be a clear and open channel to allow Reiki to flow freely through me for the highest good of this other

person. You are moving yourself outside to become a vessel, to become a conduit so that this person can receive what they need to. It stops to become about you. It becomes about being an act of service. And all of a sudden, it's like more than my hands. It's in something else. feel it in my body. There's a movement that's happening. And that experience leads me to start questioning the nature of reality, because I don't believe in energy. I don't believe that energy can be tapped into. I don't believe in a universe. I don't believe in any of that. But whatever I felt, that experience was so unbelievably distinct and unique, I couldn't put the genie back into the bottle. And how does this

connects to what we were talking about before is that in the next three years, I get really into somatic bodywork, which is basically tracking the emotion that people have that's stored in the body using these similar techniques and being able to train my hands to track that and to help watch the breath, watch their emotions, watch how they move and start to feel where things are stuck. And I spend a lot of time working with this practitioner and the group of people that she has trained and students that she has. And when doing that work, which is whatever comes up, there's going to be pain, but you're going to move through it. It has a very meditative quality similar to some of the conversation earlier in this episode. It's always wildly optimistic.

And like there's a high to it. It is not, you know, drug related or anything like that, but it's energizing. And the connection point here is that it is outside. of story. It is outside of the mind thinking. And it's outside of trying to intellectually grapple with anything. And it's tapping into a force or a frequency that is, there's a truth to it. You know, when people are walking around and holding onto emotions that are trapped, there's a movement, you know, the greatest force in the universe is the tree trying to maintain its equilibrium. It's true. We all have that. We're all. We're all. trying to maintain some form of equilibrium the way that the brain tries to keep the

eye line straight so that we can continue to walk and move forward is the similar way that we all try and heal ourselves we're all in the process of whatever we've gone through we're trying to continue to keep going and what by whatever means are necessary and I believe that there is an energetic force in the universe that helps us to do that and things get in the way of course we have blockages we run into family, you can call it family, past family experiences that make that more difficult for us. But when we're tapping into that sense of authenticity where we're not trying to hide from ourselves, I think that we are all feel much more uplifted, empowered, and energized to move forward because there's hope in that.

Thank you for sharing that. It's very powerful. It also began to let me explore this idea of there being, like, larger frequencies to tap into based on either our thinking or, you know, or a larger system of energy coming from family systems. What this makes me, you know, kind of think about is, you know, the variety of ways that people have a human experience. And, you know, you might not have taken that. class, you know, if your sister hadn't had the challenges she had, if your brother hadn't had his accident, which exacerbated her, like everything, this is where people talk about, like, things fall into place. What does it mean to trust? What does it mean to trust? I mean, a lot of people call it God, but what does it mean to put your trust in the universe so that you don't see

that the world is conspiring against you or that your existence here is just suffering, but that these are all the things that happen? And one thing inevitably will lead to another. And as Kunal talked about, like, what if there's nothing to figure out? What if that's your path? All these things. This is what led to this and that's what led to that. And that's how we got to sitting here and you telling this story. And like, maybe we never would have met Valerie if she hadn't, you know, taken that class or Travis wouldn't have been here if he hadn't, you know, had an interest in like being good at the things at his brain. Like everybody gets to use their brain for however, you know, however they are on their path.

And then it gets all put together into all these different, you know, conglomerations of our experience. But, you know, the thing that for me feels hopeful is, and this is, you know, my religious tradition talks about unity and oneness. Like, that's our big deal is like there's a oneness. And for me, that's the most comforting part of it, that you don't even have to believe what I believe. I don't have to believe what you believe.

there's one thing that governs all of it. And it governs everybody's path differently. And some people choose to call it God. And some people call it the universe. And other people call it just like what I'm going to think about today. I love that. And it connects to me, it connects for me to what Knoll was saying about we all have the ability to access this sense of feeling ourselves, the sense of feeling one.

For me, that feeling required me to. you feel anything. And as I began to... It's an opening. And as I began to learn how to feel slightly more than nothing, I began to then have the access to feel connected to someone in the room, connected to the fact that there may be something greater than myself at some point. And that was for me, the opening.

So I love this notion of everyone has a different path. And I think if people haven't felt a sense of... of themselves, a sense of something greater than themselves, what might be the emotional block that they're holding onto so strongly that they can't feel something else? Yeah. Some people might hear that and feel like I don't need to know. But I think if I learned anything from having Conall here today, it's that there's value in figuring it out.

Absolutely. Well, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, it feels like a good place to end. We'll see you next time. We'll see you next time. Bheolics break down. She's gonna break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph.D. or two. Fun fiction. And now she's gonna break.