Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Marc Maron: Humor Gave Relief from Grief

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

Marc Maron (stand-up comedian, host of WTF with Marc Maron podcast, actor, author) joins us to break down the arc of grief, the effects of growing up with detached parents, and his journey toward sobriety and defining himself. We discuss Marc’s foray into podcasting, how it enabled a generation of podcasters including MBB, and how his show has evolved over time. He reflects on his past struggles with alcohol and drugs including "cocaine psychosis", his experiences with rehab and therapy, and the positives and negatives of groups like AA. Maron explains how his mother influenced his disordered eating, his father’s narcissism and recent dementia diagnosis, and how his parents’ struggles denied him a fundamental sense of self. He reveals why he thinks he may have had undiagnosed borderline personality disorder, why he chooses to be so revealing in his creative pursuits, and the dangers of early exposure to adult content. Maron opens up about the sudden passing of his girlfriend Lynn Shelton, his inevitable attempt at using humor to relieve his pain, the interconnectedness of grief, the importance of showing up in his state of raw grief for his loyal audience, and the sense of comfort and control he has felt from sharing this experience. He considers his shortcomings as a romantic partner, what he got right with Lynn, and his take on separating the art from the artist. Marc Maron's new HBO special, FROM BLEAK TO DARK: https://www.hbo.com/movies/marc-maron-from-bleak-to-dark BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What drives you to share what you do the way you do? Look, my mother and I fought violently when I was in, you know, high school and junior high. Like, almost like, like marriage fights. Like I would make her cry and run upstairs. And we, and to the point where my father would come home and he'd almost be at the edge of violence. But what that tells me is that, you know, I was pushing back. It's always been that sort of like, you know, I had enough incentive or something incentive. inside of me to the will to sort of like not be you know destroyed by two pathologically selfish

people and I think that there's some part of the revealingness is me owning that space is is that you know this is this is who I am this is what I come from this is what I do this is my life that it's it's an aggressive act of of self uh proclamation but with my parents is that because of, you know, what I see as their irresponsible parenting skills, that they got it coming. And I don't have the fundamental respect we're supposed to afford them. It's my ambiolic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because, you know, she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down.

Hi, I'm Myamialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. It's a big one. This is a big one. Jonathan, we are having someone on who, if he did not exist, we would not be sitting here. He's our father. He's, okay, so that seems a little extreme.

But welcome. He's our podcasting father. We, that he's kind of the, he's many people's godfather of podcasting. And in particular, this is a person who's comedic and philosophical sensibilities fit very, very well with Jonathan and mine. If you haven't already guessed it, Jonathan, who are we talking to today? We're talking to Mark Marin.

Mark Marin. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh, is right. So I really didn't know that Mark Marin was a comedian. I knew he was a podcaster. He started podcasting essentially... Before the dawn of time. Before the dawn of time.

He started podcasting around the time that Joe Rogan did. And for many people, Joe Rogan is like, the guy in podcast universe. But what Mark Merin did is he took his signature. comedic style. And he transformed it into a format where he would basically, how does he describe it? I don't know how he describes it. I would describe it as he should get a PhD in psychology because he was like the first person to do long form, deep psychological analysis of his guests. And himself. That's where I was going. Right. Yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to go where you were going to go before you went there.

We're going in the same place at the same time. So Mark basically started gathering people in, his garage that he converted to a podcast. This was eight million years ago. He began talking a lot about his own struggles, his journey, his neuroses. I mean, very, very honest about it. He's got a lot of neuroses. He's, he's got a lot. He launched in 2009. He's called over a thousand episodes. He's like, well past that. He's got 1,400 episodes to date. The podcast is WTF with Mark Merrin. He gets 55 million listeners every year. Wow. I mean, he's interviewed President Barack Obama. In his garage. Keith Richards, one of his, like the person that he wanted to be like, he says, when he was a kid.

But I know Mark Marin because he often does gigs where my friend Eliza Schlesinger does gigs. And he recently did a comedy charity special to benefit worthy of love, which is an organization that I've worked with for years that provide birthday parties to children and families experiencing homelessness. but he did this incredible show with Eliza Schlesinger and Sarah Silverman and Jeff Ross. And I literally said to Eliza, do you think Mark would ever talk to me? Because Eliza's been on our podcast a couple times. And she's like, you know what? I'm not sure. Here's his number.

So I had to craft this text with your help, Jonathan. Like if you get. If you get one shot to essentially have the godfather of podcasting, who also is like so are people in terms of his comedy and his brain. and he's so intelligent. I crafted this text. I really didn't think it was going to happen. He was like, oh, I'm going to be in New York, blah, blah.

He decided to come in and speak to us. We got him in person. This episode is so big. We forgot to do the intro when it was so big. We had to come back a second day. So if you're watching online, this is like new outfit. But in all honesty, he gave us so much of his time. It is one of our longer episodes, but he is just literally an open book.

There's not a thing about himself. or his experience that he won't talk about. And stick around mid-episode. He starts to get emotional. You know what I noticed about him? What? When it gets intense, he starts rubbing his hair. He says touching his hair.

You may want to watch this one. He's got a great head of hair. Before we rolled the tape, I do want to say that so much came out of this episode for me and Jonathan that we're not even going to do a proper outro. We are going to essentially do an analysis of our experience with Mark Marin and the topics that came up as a separate Thursday episode. please stay tuned for that. Also, Mark discusses in tremendous detail from bleak to dark, which is his

new HBO special. And from bleak to dark is indeed very bleak, very dark. He talks, it's very funny. And he also talks about the death of his, his partner who passed very suddenly over COVID. And he decided to unearth that aspect of his life and share it in from bleak to dark. So we highly recommend that. He's got a bunch of other specials and we just had a really great time with him. He really, he can dish it and he can take it. And it's just really so exciting to be able to have you listen to our talk with Mark Marin. Break it down. You made Hala? For tonight? For his brother. Yeah, his brother apparently is a real Thala connoisseur, but. How long will take you? Well, this is just, it's doing the first rising now. Okay. I do it by hand. Right. Yeah, so I just, I mixed it up.

So it's just a dough. You haven't braided it? No, this is the first rising. Then I'll braid it, then it'll rise again. I might just do a circle one because he requested raisins. 60% of your time you live in the 1940s. I cook out, though. Welcome. It's really nice to have you here. We're just very excited. We're trying not to over-emphasize how important your podcast existence is to people like us. I mean, I believe Jonathan said, without you,

we probably wouldn't have even thought to do a podcast or even attempt to do what we do. So we're just- You get that, right? You get that a lot. Yeah, I've enabled a generation of a spectrum of people to think they can do this. And they're all wrong. No, no, I mean, I think that when I, when mine became successful, I think it was inspirational in the way that people were like, no, that guy, I mean, you just got to. No, that's.

No, I know. It's more than that. But I, I tend to characterize it like that a little bit. there was at the beginning a huge wave of people just doing this. And no one can really account for why anyone gets through in this type of medium because not everyone can do it, but everyone really thinks they can. Well, so this is... I'm saying, I'm sure you can. Well, I feel that. We're doing okay. Yeah, of course. You bring a lot to the table. Well, thank you. Oh, you're talking to Jonathan. No, I'm talking to you. I just met him.

Go ahead. No, so I was in the industry, you know, when I was young. And then I loved left for 12 years. And I went to college and I went to grad school and I had two kids. All before you did the TV thing? All before Big Bang Theory. So I was on a show called Blossom when I was, you know, a kid, a teenager. That was from when I was 14 to 19. And I left the industry for 12 years. And I had two kids and I went to college and I went to grad school. Where'd you go to? I went to UCLA and I did my doctorate there. I studied neuroscience. And practical. Well, my specialization was OCD. So that actually, you know, it's become a pretty hot topic. So I'm, you know, kind of glad. But, you know, there was this little thing called blogging. And what I discovered is that,

you know, I mean, I was out of the industry. I was not exorbitantly wealthy. Like, people didn't make money in the 90s as female leads of TV shows that people would think, you know. But you had, you had, I imagine a fairly odd bunch of fans that stayed with you. Yes, but for me, writing was like, you know, you'd make 200 bucks here. You know, you'd write for all these websites. You know, like, websites were still starting and like, what are these things? And we did. doing neuroscience things? No, I wrote about kind of, well, I did. I wrote about the experience kind of of, you know, being a person who never thought I, like,

I never thought about having kids. And then here I was having kids and being a scientist and all the challenges, whatever. It's, you know. And then right back to shitty show business. Well, right. But the fact is like for me, you know, writing was the place that all of those thoughts and all of those things that existed for me, my whole life, there was like a place that you could write.

and post them, right? And, you know, what ended up happening, as we all watched, is that some of the world of websites and writing shifted and it became very financially oriented in terms of like what you can sell and what you can, you know. So anyway, I ran out of places to sort of feel like the person I was had a place to live. Well, it feels like writing has been sort of pushed aside entirely. Right. Well, so that's why I was kind of curious then.

Yeah. Podcasting is sort of the place where people like yourself, people who have lots of thoughts, right? Don't hear problems to the people that care. So was that, was that kind of, what did it feel like when you thought like, let's, let's experiment with this format? Well, it was a weird series of events because I'd done some radio in 2004. You know, it was always a struggle to stay solvent, you know, in show business. And I was not a big comic by any stretch of the imagination, no matter how many. Conan's I did.

But I was at Air America Radio in the original ensemble there. And then that kind of, you know, I got pushed out there and then I was out here. My wife left me. And then I got, I kind of was pulled back into Air America for a streaming show before streaming was even possible. And, you know, I've been working with this same kid, this producer. I pulled him back into this show. And I needed them just to give me enough money up front to pay off my ex-wife.

But anyway, so this thing crapped out in a year, but we had these studios. And at that time, 2009, there were people starting to do these podcasts. A few people around like Carolla, Kevin Smith, Pardo, and, you know, there were Doug Benson maybe, but there wasn't that many. Well, not every comedian can also do what you do. Yeah, but it just wasn't a thing podcast. Right, right. It just, there was no, there was, there were people out there, but it was sort of like, what is it? you know, is it viable? And it wasn't. So, but I knew that I could do this. Right.

So I said, the producer, Brendan, I said, can you think we can do this? I mean, you think you can figure out how to post these? And we just made a commitment early on that we would do two a week, no matter what, two different shows. And at the beginning, we were really literally kind of, you know, we knew the night tech and we were just using the studios there because it was a liberal network. They didn't, they fired us, but they didn't throw us out because we were still under contract. So we did the first, you know, dozen in those studios at night, bringing guests up on the freight elevator. So it was really just by virtue that we both knew that we were good at this medium. My producer's a brilliant guy. And he's still with me. And we just felt it out. And

eventually I moved back to L.A. and I set up in the garage. So just talk me through it a little bit. If you had to describe what you were doing, right? Because you weren't getting on the radio and doing comedy. What were you doing? Well, I think the in the beginning, you know, I had experienced doing sort of a lot of comedy and like a progressive morning show in a way. We go over that stuff now because in our bonus content, we're doing like sort of the history of morning sedition, which was the show. And there are bits in there that we could not do. They were not, really, it was a stretch to call them progressive in any way. But, but they're great. So what I was doing, I think I was feeling it out.

And those first few episodes, you know, I had one or two guests. You know, we had segments, like almost like radio segments. We had a few with Matthew, who was this kid, Matthew Weiss. And we did movie stuff. And we did, you know, we kind of felt out all that format type of stuff. Right. And then when I got to LA, it became, like, I had a major breakthrough in radio. When you can own a microphone solo for hours, that's a great graduate.

into something. And that happened when I filled in a couple of times at Air America for people that ran solo shows. So I had a certain amount of confidence in it. But when we started doing the show here, it was really monologue, you know, which was whatever was on my mind. I knew I wasn't beholdened to comedy and that it gave me an option to speak about whatever I wanted. And we'd have a guest. And then there was a third act for a while. It was usually an improv actor playing a fake guest that we wouldn't tip. And there's several that people don't know if they were real or not. And they were kind of great. Like, you know, people like Seth Morris did it.

Jerry Minor did it. Matt Walsh. I mean, a lot of the UCB guys at that time, 2010, 2011, were doing these characters and just improvising as a real guest and was great. But that fell on the wayside. And then it became just an interview show with a monologue. What I was doing was really trying to reintegrate myself into my community, which was comedy, and sort of find a place. a lot of apologizing took place.

There was a lot of me settling scores that many only existed in my head. What I usually say about the first 100 episodes, it's really me having celebrities over to talk about my problems. Well, that's kind of what we do here. Yeah, well, then, yeah, so you got it. I mean, no, but I, I mean, I think there's a, you know, there's a real, at least, I mean, it's, it's, it's, even though we do this together, you know,

there's a real loneliness of sort of like being here, you know, with this microphone and sort of talking. Oh, yeah? Well, yeah, because I don't, you know, I learned long ago not to really excessively read anything that people feel about what you say or do, meaning for me, so, so it's, I don't want to say it's a, a unidirectional, you know, kind of relationship you have, but he'll remember things that we talked about with this guest or that. And I was like, I just, I'm sort of here. And then I don't. Yeah, it happens in real time.

Exactly. It's as if you just had lunch with somebody. Yeah. It's a good lunch. Sure. I'm like that. My producer is pretty meticulous and we only do an audio podcast specifically because that's what we set out to do and that's what we do.

But, you know, he goes over this stuff, you know, very, he spends time with these things in production. Jonathan is, you know, Jonathan and Valerie are, you know, the actual, like, those kind of producers. No. Oh, okay. No. Well, yeah, so, you know, of course they're going to remember because they listen to it again and a lot. I just don't want to listen to my voice anyway or look at myself.

I don't know if that bothers me, but I just, I kind of move through it. Right. Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, I'm always amazed when someone comes up and they're like, oh, I heard that. It's like, oh, there are people listening to them? It's not just something we're doing right here. Yeah.

Well, yeah. I mean, that was an interesting adjustment to make because as a stand-up and as somebody who's been out in the world doing different things, you know, I chose to do a podcast that was candid and and revealing emotionally and otherwise. And I'm very stream of consciousness. And I think that my interviews are also very, they're candid, but like I don't prep much and I don't, I just want to sort of engage somehow. But to your point, yeah, people have a relationship with you that is different than, you know, being on TV. Sure. It's different than doing stand-up. It's, you know, you are spending time with them privately a lot of times.

It's a one-on-one thing. And they know your life or what you make available to them. They know your cat's names. They know your kids' names. They know whatever it is that you do in your life. And when you see them, you know, they have a right to ask you about it. I mean, it just depends on how you want to handle that. My MBialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower.

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Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional. additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Miami-Mialics Breakdown to help support the show. Talking about, you know, kind of like your latest special also that we obviously have watched and we recommend everybody watch it. It's very, very, like, it's funny, it's profound. It's tragic. It's wonderful. But, you know, we've chosen to sort of do a podcast essentially surrounding, you know, mental health. The idea was we were breaking things down that other people need help breaking down. When we started this podcast, my mental health

was really taken a deep dive because of this thing called COVID and the lockdown. And I was thinking, gosh, here I am this person with a doctorate in neuroscience, right? I've been in therapy since I'm practically born. Yeah. I've been on every medication, given every diagnosis. Like I have this whole experience and I have a therapist and all these things. And I still am like, why am I shaking and can't eat? You know, this was in the, you know, in the early days of, like, COVID, like, what is happening, right? What's terrifying. And so I said, if me, like, this person with, like, all this information, all these resources, if I'm struggling, right, what about people who don't even know the difference between an anxiety

attack and a panic attack, right? And you start hearing all these things, especially when COVID, like, it brought everything up. Yeah. So it's like, I remember I talked to people who were like, I'm having trouble sleeping and I don't know what's going. I'm like, that's, yeah, you're anxious. Collective trauma. Exactly.

We wanted to talk to people who just were having a. human experience. We didn't want to talk to people who had figured it out because forgive me, there are enough attractive celebrities out there being like, here's what you need. Here's the candle to buy to feel better, right? They don't really have it figured out. Well, so that's what I said. I'm like, we're going to get up here and we're going to talk to people. And, you know, some of our earliest guests were like, we had Leslie Jordan on who like told all about his like crystal meth addiction. And like, we had people who wanted to talk to us about their journey. A lot of sobriety stuff. And we talk a lot about the steps in the rooms in

very safe ways here in some unsafe ways. But it just kind of became this thing of like, Matthew McConaughey showed up. And I'm like, you have no idea who I am. He's like, no, but here I am. Let's do this. And we like talked about all these deep things. So, you know, Jonathan has realized that it's not just mental health that we talk about.

We're trying to have authentic human interactions. Was it really deep with McConaughey or did he work you? That's a good question. He worked me and I loved it. Yes. That's what happened. But it really has become a lot of my mother listening. hi mom and trying to piece together the things that like I never took her to therapy to talk about.

Also, we probably didn't actually know what we were doing when we started, of course. No. But it's all it's about your interest and whatever, you know, you're working through. I mean, I think that my podcast has always been about that. It's always been about getting to the core of somebody's disposition, their being, their creativity and all that. So it's interesting to, you know, because I definitely am aware of where people. people come from and why. I don't, there are people I've talked to with different types of problems. It's not inherently what we talk about, but it does, it comes up depending on the person,

you know, but I know I got another friend Paul Gilmartin. He does a mental health podcast. I think it's, you know, if you're putting that stuff out in the world, if you're sharing, you're vulnerably sharing your experience with, with mental and emotional problems, it's going to be helpful in and of itself. Well, this is the part where I want to, ask, what was little Mark Merrin like? Like, were you this at five and ten? I think that there's a part of me that I think what I was at five and ten is more present now than it has been. But look, I was the, you know, my parents were very young. My mother was 22, you know, when she had me. My dad was a few years older. He was becoming a doctor and she was becoming a

professional anorexic. And born in New Jersey, but like I was the first kid and the first grandkid for all of them. Yeah. Were your grandparents from Eastern Europe or they were American as well? They were first generation. Okay, they were first. Your grandparents. My grandmother was probably born in Poland but moved when she was three on my mother's

side. Yeah. But my father's side, it was mostly, there was more Polish and Russian and then my grandfather on my mother's side. He had been there for a while, but they were all here. Yeah. But my grandma Goldie was a big fan of mine. And I think that because of her stability, I turned out okay.

But I was a very much, she used to say I was the happy baby. I was a very funny, laughy kind of happy kid in some respects. But I think I was very sensitive. And that's what I recall. There was an oversensitivity. And my parents were sort of selfish. But selfish in a way where they were incapacitated emotionally. They were not capable of nurturing or,

the selflessness necessary to be parents. But like I said, my grandmother stepped in for at least the first five or six years of my life. And you have a sibling. I have a little brother, yeah. He took a, yeah, he got the brunt of it. You moved, you lived in New Mexico. Yeah, I mean, Jersey, then my dad did his residency, or I guess it would be, yeah, his residency, did internship, I think in metropolitan New York. But then he, in, I think he was drafted or enlisted in the Air Force. So for two years during his residency, we were stationed in Anchorage. Alaska. So we moved from Jersey to Anchorage. And I have

memories of that. I've talked about the memories of it. Because you could hop these cargo planes. Like if we wanted to go back to Jersey to visit. Yeah, but it was 1969, 1970. So there's all these body boxes coming back from Vietnam on these cargo planes. You know, and you don't

really realize it at the time because, you know, the pilot will actually come in the cockpit and it's cool stuff. But I remember Alaska. But then, yeah, my father had a friend who started a practice in Albuquerque. It was a growing city. And the guy convinced my old man that it was, you know, the place to go because it was a boom city. Yeah.

And that's where we ended up, yeah. And that's where I grew up, yeah, from third grade on. Did you like growing up there? Yeah, it's great. I mean, I've been to Tows, which is like really beautiful, but it's its own kind of magic, you know. Yeah, but that's a magic that you take in as an adult, you know, when I was a kid, you know, Taos, you'd drive and you'd ski. Yeah.

You're always sort of aware as I went through high school and, you know, kind of got turned on to art and music and this and, you know, there are people influenced my life. But, yeah, it was a great place to grow up. You know, I find myself, I felt like I was drawn there. I thought I was going to, you know, buy a house there, but then I didn't know why. You know, because do you ever go there? No, I mean, I was a town of years ago. Or any of that where they put people.

There's this beautiful inn and lavender farm, and it's a whole operation called Los Poblanos, which is like the highest end joint in Albuquerque. But the thing, the weird thing about it is. Like the last time, one time I was there, I used to see, I saw Renee Russo there once. You know, John Hamm was staying there once. Like, it's where people stay, you know, if they're shooting. I'm glad to you thought I might have been there. Sure.

I mean, it's just a place to go in Albuquerque. But the thing is, it's down the street from where I grew up. And I know the family, I know the kid who owns it because I grew up with the family when they lived in the house that is now that place. But for me, Albuquerque in terms of, like, all kinds of different memories, you know. You can get your driver's license when you were 15. Wow. So we were like drinking and driving and causing trouble, you know, young.

And I had friends, you know, just, you know, towny. It was, yeah, and it's beautiful. Did you feel out of place? Like you're such a New Yorker. I mean, there's such a New York energy to you. I'm genetically Jersey, New York. Well, I always went back, you know. My mother, we always went back several times a year probably to spend time.

My mother, we would go back for big openings at the Museum of Modern Art and stuff to see Cézanne at the. at the Whitney or the Picasso. Like, like, stay with my grandparents and the communist great aunt and uncle in Fort Lee. Yeah, yeah. But when I got there, you know, in terms of being Jews and being in Albuquerque, I mean, there was a, it wasn't a huge community, but there was enough for there to be two synagogues. There's definitely. This is the one we go to.

This is the one we don't go to. Well, there's a reform and a conservative, right? It's a joke. It's true. Yeah. You know, Temple Albert was, you know, that was where the guitar player was. Yeah. So, yeah.

Yes. What do you do? You want to go to church? You want to go to synagogue? So, but we were B'nai Israel people. But there was enough of a community that we were dug into it, you know, and I still, there's one friend from a second grade who I met in Hebrew school who I still talked to and see when I go home. I do want to ask, there's, you know, you've talked about sobriety. Yeah. When did you discover that, you know, there were things to do to make you feel different than you were feeling in ways that you wanted to pursue it. Well, I think that, like, it was definitely in high school.

And, you know, we were running around. You know, we had a lot of freedom. And my parents were not very conscious or disciplinary, and they just needed us to call them if we were going to be late. Yeah. But, you know, that was about it. But we drank, you know. We would sit out in front of liquor stores,

and I don't know who these grownups were, but they would buy us booze. And, like, early on, the sad part is, is I really couldn't, I didn't like beer. And I would drink hard liquor because, you know, Keith Richards drank it. And I would drink like Jack Daniels from, like, when I was 15, 16. But I always, I would get sick a lot. But I was not a big drug guy. There was speed around, not meth, then, you know, just pills and stuff.

And weed was not as much. But we'd go out and drink booze. And then, like, later in high school, Blow came into it. But it was then. Yeah. You know, but it was also my heroes. Like, you know, I was aspiring to something. I was going to say, you were also, you're a musician.

Right. And how much of that felt kind of connected, that sort of musical culture and that sort of. Well, I mean, I've been talking about, you know, Keith Richards again lately. I was never a great musician when I was a kid. I'm much better now. And I never played in bands, really. It was not like a pursuit of mine. But I did identify with it at a certain point.

But like, because lately. I had Keith on, you know. I've talked to him twice. And the last time he was on, he was wearing this hat. And I just kept bothering him about it. I was like, where'd you get that beanie, you know? And it just really pestered him, you know.

And I was busting his balls. I couldn't believe it. Like, you know, it's Keith Richards. And I felt comfortable enough. And I'm like, I really like the beanie, man. It's so much better than when you were putting beads in your hair. And he was like, it was something to do. You know, I'm like, hey, easy, man.

But I pestered him enough about the beanie to where I, I found out where the publicist said, like, this is where he got it. We're not promoting it. So just shut up about the beanie. But the point being like, you know, I ordered this beanie. You know, it's a $300 cashmere of beanie. I got two of them and I wear them. But the funny thing is, is like when I was a kid, you know, I started smoking marburrows

because I read an interview with Keith that he smoked marbles. I drank Jack Daniels because I read an interview with Keith that he liked Jack Daniels. I bought a telecaster because he had a telecaster, you know. and now I'm 59 and I'm buying a beanie because he bought a beanie. And, you know, but, you know, finally, you know, I think I can honestly say I stood in front of a mirror wearing that beanie and I realized deeply that I was not Keith Richards. And it has taken this long to do that. Where did life take you after high school? Well, it was weird because I was not good in school.

And I was like in terms of the evolution of who I was as a kid, you know, I don't think. I think I had a very defined sense of self. I think that when you have, you know, kind of needy, selfish parents, you're denied a fundamental foundation of you. If you weren't, if your parents aren't capable of detaching properly in order for you to make mistakes and come into yourself, you know, you become sort of this, you know, there's a, I don't know, is the word amorphous. There was something, you know, yearning.

There was something, like, there was some part of me that wasn't complete and it was annoying. Because, like, even in high school, I kind of gravitated towards this guy who owned a bookstore, who was, you know, I was funny and I was, you know, I had, I wasn't a weirdo. But that guy guided me in a real way, Gus Blaisdale, who owned the Living Batch bookstore. But the point being that when I left for college, I really didn't have a good sense of who I was. I don't think anyone does. But I didn't want to go to college, and I fucked up in high school. And it was a real scramble. Like, I didn't have the grades for it.

And then my senior high school, I panicked. And I applied myself and I got, you know, the A's necessary, but not enough to get my GPA up to the point. And I was applying places like, you know, community colleges and stuff. But my parents had bread so, you know, I could go. So ultimately, I got accepted at this strange kind of liberal arts school that was primarily known for its program for dyslexic kids. But they let a certain amount of, you know, kind of upper middle class fuckups get in. So, you know, it was called Curry College. So I went to Curry College in Milton Mass.

which was about 20 miles outside of Boston, not too far from Matapan. And I did a year there, and I transferred to BU. So college me was, you know, more actively drinking, you know, definitely moving through my towny roots and my arti roots. Like, I always carried a sort of dichotomy of, like, you know, growing up in a very towny way. But also, like, because I worked at a bagel place across from the college, You know, I was sort of around college kids a lot.

And the guy next door who worked at the record store, a guy named Steve LaRue, who turned me onto this world of experimental music and stuff. Like, I was taken along because my mother was a painter and also had artsy friends and there was an artie scene there. But I always had these two worlds working. There was also like New York Jew, but there was this New Mexico artie, but, you know, still a good firm, towny foundation. That was all moving through me at all times.

Did you know you wanted to sort of be a comic? Did you? Yes. I think that, like, from very early on, it was something that I had a tremendous amount of respect for. Who did you like? When I was a kid. I mean, I liked my grandmother was a big comedy fan. But also, I just like the old Jewish guys.

I mean, my parents took me to see Jackie Vernon when I was like 11 because, like, I wanted to so badly. And he played at the lounge at the Hilton Hotel in Albuquerque. And they brought me there. I was way too young. And we were right up front to see this fat, sweaty man do his, you know, his, like, slide show shtick but I was like thrilled so I always loved comedians you know rickles buddy hackett were important to me and then like I had comedy records when I was a kid I had you know most of the carlins out of the prior I had Steve Martin Cheech and Chong was

you know more important than I think most people admit they were they were fucking hilarious and and then like I don't know it was always a part of my life but I always sort of saw them as you know guys who have made sense of the world like you know these are the guys that know what's going on. Like, I was talking to somebody else recently. I really thought that comedy was, you could contextualize everything with comedy, you know, things that are daunting. And you can just make it funny and make sense of it. I really thought they had a handle on things. Like, now that I am one, I'm like, they don't. Right. But a lot of them do. But the point is, yes, there was some part of me that knew I wanted to do it, but I had other things. Like,

I've always been this guy that, you know, I'm going to get the things I want to get done, done somehow. one way or the other without being too crazy about it. Like when I got to college, there were things I wanted to do, you know. Like I wanted to act. I wanted to write. I wanted to, you know, direct plays. I wanted to do all these things. And somehow or another, I did them.

You know, when I transferred to BU, I was an English major. and I got, I think like, I somehow weasel wormed my way out of my language requirement, you know, by taking a proficiency. I really, I graduated with honors, but it was only because I cobbled together enough stuff. Like, I was there five years. I did five years undergrad. And like it was just, and I did not, my concentration was romantic literature, but the class was just too early that year. So I didn't really, could not wrap my mind. around Byron, Shelley, Yeats, or any of them. Yates.

So some, but I minored in film studies, and that was interesting. You know, film crit. It was an art history thing. And I did a year survey and the history of photography, which really changed the way I saw the world. That more than anything, oddly. Can you say more? Sure. It was a history of photography.

It was an art history class. And in the first semester was a year-long class, the teacher, this guy, Carl Quorenza, who was a, you know, a minor abstract photography. photographer himself. But he was kind of a tough guy. But he started the history of photography class at the cave painting. So like the entire first year was leading up to the introduction of photography through ways of seeing, through, you know, the camera obscure and, you know, from the way of seeing. And that, the whole, that whole, the notion of, you know, of that, of, of, you know, of, of, like, for me, the arguments that they have around whether or not some of the Flemish

painters because they were looking through camera obscures were actually painting from reality. It's, to me, it was just sort of mind-blowing. And then that, you know, and then, you know, dealing with the idea of images in advertising. And then the argument around, you know, whether photography was art and, you know, the two schools of photographic art being documentary and art photography, and then just having to establish that shit. It was all, like, kind of mind-blowing to me. So it informed a lot more than.

a lot of things in college. Did your parents have any expectations for you of what you should be doing? I don't know. Like, my dad was like kind of, I wouldn't say he's emotionally detached, but he's definitely aggressively into his own trip, you know. And my mother was sort of like the financier, the financier of my adventures. I don't, they didn't have, no. I think the first year.

Like you want you to be a doctor? Was that a thing? Well, I thought I should because my dad was. Like, the first year of college at Curry. Right. Huh? You're very bright. Yeah.

Well, I got that, you know, and there was those thoughts about that stuff. But I didn't really know how to live life. So I didn't know how to have any discipline around seeing the future or organizing my thoughts or like, you know, being deliberate about how one, you know, structures a life or an education around a means to an end. I just didn't have the ability to compartmentalize. And I still don't. So the first year of college, I did, you know,

Excel and really put a lot of study into biology and the idea of pre-med. And I did well. But, you know, I didn't, yeah, I don't know. Once I got like the 35, 3-7 or whatever first year, I was sort of like, all right. Okay. So that's that, you know. Were you in therapy at any point? Different times.

Okay. But I mean, like, what's the earliest you went to therapy? When I was probably junior high. Uh-huh. Ron Carey. Was it Ron Carrey? Dr. Carey. he was like the guy, you know.

He was like the hip guy for troubled teens, you know. We have him on the line, actually. He wants to call it. I'd love to talk to him. Did you ask to go to him? Did someone else suggest you go? No, I had problems in school, you know. I could not connect and I was had, you know, there was always the issue of like he's

bright, but he's not motivated, what's the problem? And I just could not, I don't know. I really think it was a tremendous failure on behalf of my parents to provide, you know, any sort of stability or emotional support in the way on an emotional level. Certainly, they had money and I had a house and bought me a car or whatever. But I just was out in the world without sort of definition or guidance in a lot of ways. And they were just didn't know how to do it. So I think I kind of went to school expecting all that and I acted out in some ways.

And I was just so busy trying to have friends of certain types. A lot of this stuff though, and I think that's also a lot of the the real, you know, kind of joy, it's kind of a weird word, but the joy of kind of watching you and, you know, learning about how your brain works is like there's a tremendous amount of introspection. And I'm assuming that at the time that you were in junior, higher high school, you may not have had that awareness about what was actually going on with your parents. So I'm curious where the awareness that you have now, was that something that came later in life? Well, I mean, I was aware of some things.

Like, it's hard to kind of put your, I mean, we have very similar stories. Yeah. And it's, you know, for me, like, I never really put my finger on it, you know, meaning it was like, oh, my life keeps. Oh, no, that's been an evolution. Right. So that's what I'm curious. Was there. Well, there's different frameworks to understanding, right?

So I think as you get older and, you know, you're going to choose, you know, either whatever you learn in therapy or whatever readings you do to sort of contextualize your. experience so you can have a handle on who you are. I mean, there's no one thing that, you know, it's like religion or anything else or philosophy. Like, you know, psychology in general are templates and neither are going to fit it or not. But I think, but one did, a couple have blown my mind over time, but one fairly recently. But when I was younger, I knew, like, what did I know? My father was volatile and odd, and it turns out he was kind of bipolar and he was a surgeon. So there a lot of that kind of like, you know, he's not here. He's, you know, saving lives or whatever. But he's not. He's orthopedic, you know. My dad was a teacher. It kind of felt like the same

weight was given to it. Like, I'm saving lives every day. Exactly. Don't you know what I do? Yeah. Right. But I didn't get the guilt thing. He was just off on his own trip and my mother was hypersexualized, you know, to the point where it was uncomfortable and, you know, flirting with my friends. And there's always been this, like I really, I don't, my line is really that. I, I don't see them as parents. I see them as these people I grew up with that had problems. But, you know, but as they both get older, I'm still very uncomfortable with my mother's emotional range and, you know, and who she is, uh, in terms of that. And my father is now beginning to have dementia, but I, I have peace with all of it. But I feel like there was something odd about them early on.

Either they're, because of their permissiveness, but also their kind of strange detachment and lack of focus. There was, you know, my mother could never do basic things. Like, the thing I, like, recently think about it's like, you know, like, if she made me lunch, you know, kids' parents, like, they make, they know how to make a sandwich and put it in a fucking bag. And then, you know, you get the nice lunch. I'm obsessed with that size of bag.

Yeah. The lunch bag. Yeah. But because the reason is, is that my mother, like, you know, when you have the lunch bag, you fold it, nice, and you carry it. My mother would just squinch it. And she just, every time, it was just this weird handle of crushed paper. And I'm like, what the fuck is that?

And then the sandwich was always gross because she didn't know to make a peanut butter because she had eating disorder and she didn't give a shit. When I was in Cub Scouts and she had to sew the patches on, she was just sort of like, I'm being creative. I'm like, no, there's a way to do it. There's a level of revealing that you choose to be, you know, especially this last special. It's like, there is a level of choice that you make. Yeah.

What drives you to share what you do the way you do? I still feel like the journey to self, which, you know, was fractured for me. I mean, I would argue that there's a possibility that I may have been a borderline personality disorder person when I was younger because my dad is like there's something wrong with them. And, you know, it was never clear if it was bipolar or mania or whatever or narcissism, but it's a little bit of all of them. Yeah, it's usually not just one thing.

But, you know, but look, you know, whatever I have, I had the fortitude to survive. And the quest was to define myself, right? So I used to do a joke on stage. I can never make work where I'd say, like, I really think for the first nine years of my life, my mother just saw me as her fat. Yeah. If she could just, like if she just ate less, maybe the kid would disappear because how many times can we go to the Husky section?

and I have any self-worth. But literally, I was counting calories. Like, I lost, my freshman year of college, I got down to 169 pounds just so I could go like, look, Mom, I'm emaciated. But, uh. Look, yeah. It's too much. I know, dude.

Look, my mother and I fought violently when I was in, you know, high school and junior high, like, like, like, marriage fights. It's like I would make her cry and run upstairs, and to the point where my father would come home and he'd almost be at the edge of violence. But what that tells me is that, you know, I was pushing back. It's always been that sort of like, you know, I had enough incentive or something inside of me to the will to sort of like not be, you know, destroyed by two pathologically selfish people. And I think that there's some part of the revealingness is,

me owning that space. You know, this is, this is who I am, this is what I come from, this is what I do, this is my life, that it's, it's an aggressive act of self proclamation, really, and also there, and I, and I insist that it's, there's a common, that other people can relate to it. But I also, you know, I, I've done hurtful shit about my parents. You have to, you know, kind of navigate that stuff. Is that, like, I know, like, doing the podcast, the way I do it, that there was a point where I stopped talking about my relationships because they all end one way or the other, you know, whether it's breakup or death for fuck's sake. So, like, there comes a point where one lunatic that I was with for years, you know, was like, you know, you can talk about me, but I can't respond.

So it's not fair. Sure. So that's different. Yeah, okay, you have your perception. that's your perception, even if you're telling the truth, there's still another side to it. And they can't tell their truth. But that's not my fucking problem on some level. But I'll honor that because I understand that.

But what my parents is that because of what I see as their irresponsible parenting skills, that they got it coming. And I don't have the fundamental respect we're supposed to afford them. That's fascinating to me. I find it really inspiring. I mean, I do. I think it's really inspiring. I think it's a lot of what fuels, I think, a lot of the attachment that people have to you when they hear you share your truth. These themes have always been in the specials and in my comedy. But that one joke in terms of like, you know, where is young Mark or what did that kid become, that joke where I say like I don't like when people my age tell me, aren't you too old to still be mad at your parents? And then that tone I take when I go, no, they did it. But it's gotten a lot rougher than that. But fortunately for me, I've definitely gone too far with both of them.

But I've done it to their face. Sure. And I've done it on stage. They're selfish enough to be somewhat flattered by it. The joke I have about it is that my dad was like a depressive. So like he'd go through these extended periods where he'd be sort of in bed. And my mother would say, why don't you go upstairs and make him laugh? You're the only one that can.

But there's a certain amount of truth of that. And I can bust his balls right to his face. I did all the material that's on this special. And any time I've talked about him, him and his wife have come and seen that stuff. And he loves it. Like the last time, he's got a little dimension now that he's not going to remember it as well as he used to. But it was so funny because his wife, who's this born-again Christian, Latino woman, who we, I don't believe in Jesus, but we all thank Jesus every day for Rosie. You know, because she's still dealing with the old guy.

But like I'll really ripping the shreds. I was at the ice house once and they were out here and he came to see it and it just went on for half an hour. And the people in the audience knew he was in the room and I was going at him. And like, Rosie always comes up afterwards with him and she's like, oh, that was so funny. I wish you did more. I'm like, do you want me to punch him? I'll put you like. So I have an understanding with them to a degree, but they don't like, you know, when you have narcissistic parents, you're an appendage.

So, you know. Also, it's very unusual to have two narcissistic parents, and I've talked about this. Oftentimes, you'll have a narcissist and then, you know, kind of an enabler. Co-dependent, yeah. Yeah, but it's a very special. I don't think she's my mother's narcissistic. She's, she's an addictive thing. Yeah, no, but I'm saying there's a, when there's a flavor of that with both, it leads to a lot of, kind of exactly what you described, this kind of floating. You're kind of like, there's not a real. You've got to build you.

Correct. And it's going to take one. The scaffold is the way sort of my therapist describes it. Like, there's not really a scaffold. The reason that people do intensive, you know, kind of psychotherapy and like why that became sort of del rigue is it is. It's trying to form a scaffold, you know, that was kind of not there. It's weird.

Yeah, because like I was so, like, I really think that most of my search, you know, in terms of mentors and also in show business, not in show business, but my weird connection to actors and comics as a kid and my sort of, I think it was. all an attempt to be parented. And I think to some degree effective. Like I don't know, I don't quite jive with the scaffolding notion, but I do jive with the idea that you, you sort of emulate and see what sticks until you, you know, become who you are. And I've, you know, I've emulated a lot of certainly people in fashion choices and this that or the other. thing. And I've chosen a lot of, you know, men, both, you know, some bad and some good to be

father figures to a degree. And I've chosen some, a lot of women, some dangerous, some not, to be emotional supports. But I was not, I did, I don't, I don't mean to cut you off. When you have these, these type of parents is that you are, you do not know how to receive or give love properly. Let's have a full stop there. because I kind of feel like that needs a whole room to breathe. So what I usually say is I have trust issues. I don't trust men and I don't trust women. That's the issue.

But that's a full stop. I'm curious, did you have relationships as a teenager? Did you? Sure. Was there something fulfilling there? Like I was just, I saw porn too young. And it set a standard in my head that was, you know, daunting. It caused me a lot of anxiety.

took me many years to be able to do that. Imagine being a kid now. They just take people that don't exist and they make them exist in porn world. It's very strange. No, no. It was a lot harder to find when I was a kid in high school. Yeah, I'm 10 years younger than you. The parents' friends who had the BetamX tapes and they were up in the house for some reason.

Right. But yeah, I had relationships. But what I'm talking about. What are you like as a partner? There's a big sort of arc on that. I've been horrible. horrible. I've been emotionally abusive. I've been a fuck around. I've been jealous. I've been like, you know, I was a very destructive type of man and very selfish. This is all in addiction also,

correct? Of course, yeah. I mean, I'm, I, the woman who got me sober, I latched onto and married. Yeah. And it became horrible. It was horrible for her, and I didn't see it. And she left me and I was still horrible. You can't, but that's that thing. It's like, you know, I stayed sober, but how am I going to function. And I'm no good at intimacy now, but, you know, I'm a twice-married childless person. And, you know, I have to accept that. But, you know, it was changing and it did get better. And I, you know, I can make different choices now. But I think it comes down to that idea of love feels manipulative to me. And loving somebody is too, I'm afraid of disappearing. So, so that's a trust issue, right? But these are fundamental. Those are the core emotional issues. So, you know,

either and then like in order to manufacture what feels like relationship, it's usually around drama and provocation. When you have parents that are incapable of nurturing and they basically are just using you as an extension of their own emotions, and they play their emotions out with each other and themselves on you. And that's love. I mean, how do you not, how are you not wary of that? It's exhausting, just thinking of it. Come here. Oh, I'm interested in, I'm interested in you. And then, by the way, I need you to do this. Or no, it's, it's, it's deeper than that. It's like, you know, I'm interested in you. I'm interested in you. I'm sorry that, you know, I did that. Do you want me to make up first? Do you, you might, like, my, I'd ask my parents if

I could do something and they'd say like, what do you want us to say? Like, I don't know, something like a parent. So, so it's just, the confusion and the sort of like, the exhaustion is the manipulation. It's like, you know, when someone, when someone loves you, you know, it's supposed to feel good. It's not supposed to feel like, you know, what do you want? Your defenses are constantly scanning for what the old church, you know, you know, and then, you know, the, the, the, uh, he's acting like this is not his existence, but that's what's happening. I'm trying to help people who may not have this firsthand experience. Some people may not know what it's like.

Get a little bit more details. I just had to sort this out in terms of you asking me when, you know, I realize this stuff. It's like, I don't know, like I was very, you know, full of angry swagger for a lot of years. And I heard a lot of people's feelings. And, you know, I broke a lot of hearts. And I don't know that, you know, it's taken years to take any sort of, you know, responsibility for that. because I was completely selfish. And I have, and I talk about this lately.

I really don't think I realized, you know, just the depth of what an asshole I was. You know, and there were people that have different experiences with me. You know, some people would not see that. But there are points in my past as I pursued stand up and as I lived that life of a fucking, you know, kind of rudderless, you know, floor sleeping person that didn't know how to function in the world for years into adulthood because of my pursuits. When you got sobered, did you work a program? Like, are you a programming person? Yeah, man.

I talk about the program, you know, publicly all the time, you know, by qualifying, you know, under the, you know, I do, I don't represent AA, but, you know, I do talk about AA a lot. And I do it, open. I don't give a fuck about the tradition. And if any of these, you know, old timers are going to be like, you know, I'll give a fuck. No, no. I seriously don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck who I offend in AA and who writes me letters about that tradition. addition, go fuck yourself. That's the reason that there's only a 20% success right and most people

don't ever get to a meeting because you fucking control freaks. Okay, I wasn't asking in that way, but no, but I appreciate that. But no, what I meant was the, you know, the path to the kind of understanding you're talking to. I didn't get the program. I ended up cocaine with cocaine psychosis. I graduated college and I already had a drug habit. I was already pretty into Coke. And I, you know, I took three months old. home off and then I came out here and you know within months I you know I wrote a screenplay with the guy I was friends with in college who it was Steve Brill and that's a long complicated story but but nonetheless I ended up a dormant at the comedy store and in doing a lot of coke

with you know with a new father figure who was Sam Kannison not the best choice but but I ended up psychotic and you know living in a mystical landscape and I left like being you know you you know, chased by things only I understood. And I got sober the first time. I went into rehab for a month in, I guess it would be 87. And then I got out of rehab, and I went to Boston to start doing comedy again. I was pursuing the saying, I didn't go to meetings. I didn't understand the steps and the traditions.

It did not, you know, I stayed sober for like a year and a half-ish. But then I went out. It was not one of those situations where, like, when you go out with a head full of sobriety, you know, it's harder. I'm like, it wasn't hard. And, you know, and I was, you know, I would do that. I would go in and out. Right. Go to meetings for a while.

I'm not quite yet. But for years. So I've got like 23. There's going to be 24 this year. But I got sober the first time in 88. Yeah. 98, 2008, 2008. The year I was being about Mitzman.

Oh, nice. Taking me almost 40 years to get 23. So whatever, man. You know, but like it stuck. And I'm still grateful to the woman that got me sober, who I took hostage and married and once she was nothing. to do with me. That's the love, the death grip of love. Well, I mean, it's like, you know, all these people that I've had, you know, in passing experiences, like I immediately feel

like totally connected to almost everybody. But, you know, like, it's very hard for me to accept that, like, you know, I'm this mistake she made for a few years. So, like, as years ago by, she's like, yeah, you know, I was younger and it was just stupid and there's a terrible thing. I do want to ask, what did you get right with Lynn? Well, I think there was a lot going on there. You know, we had known each other a lot of years, and it was clear that we were, you know, drawn to each other. And I just didn't believe it. You know, I didn't, you know, she's very persistent and, you know, mildly obsessed.

And, you know, I thought she was beautiful and fun, you know, we really connected, but I just didn't trust it. and we were both in relationships, so we were protected by that. But then it just became relentless in terms of, you know, she was directing my episodes of my show. She directed Glow. She directed my comedy specials that we loved each other. And, you know, it just through a series of events, you know, and certain, you know, things that I can't really talk about, you know, I just said, well, I'm willing to surrender to this. Love. And I, and if we're going to do it, we've got to do it.

and you know you gotta get out of your thing and I'll get out of my thing and you know let's fucking do it so we did so I what we got right you know sadly didn't it was that you know we were very excited to be together and I was not you know I was willing to be loved and I and I think that I made my best efforts to to love her but she was also like had everything that she was also vain and, you know, and flirty and kind of charismatic, you know, so it, you know, it honored enough of my childhood without, you know, too much. But she all, she had eating things, but most of them were in relation to, you know, you know, conditions she had. But she was, you know, there was like, she had the things that my mother had, but were healthy, you know, she wasn't,

she didn't have an eating disorder. She had a strict diet, right? Right. So, but, uh, what I got right, I guess was just, you know, at least letting myself be loved and love her and receive it back. But our time together publicly, it didn't last that long. So it was all sort of in somewhat of a honeymoon stage still and then COVID hit. But I think what I got right was the age and also like, you know, a kindred spirit. and somebody who was, you know, incredibly optimistic and totally supportive. I don't think that I would be doing a lot of the things that I'm doing creatively now without her belief in me.

And that sort of stuck. And I think that, like, I gave her a lot of joy. I think that, you know, we were able to do that for each other. Were you joyful? Are there places that you found yourself joyful with her? Yeah, I gave it to it. Yeah, like, we took a trip to Ireland. That was great because we both had.

a thing for Ireland. And, you know, and I was able to allow myself to be the vulnerable old man that I am with her. And, you know, we did, we went to Spain because we heard the film we did was in the, you know, got an award there. And then we went to Ireland. But yeah, I mean, I was. I was. I was still prickly, you know, but I am. So the question I wanted to ask is about, you know, in this latest special, you know, you choose to like go right. there. You fucking like go right there. You go into like the belly of the grief beast. Yeah. And you know, I, um, I can't, I mean, I can't even begin to imagine, you know, first of all, like processing, oh, I'm going to cry about your life. Yeah. But, you know, I can't even imagine

kind of processing grief the way that you had to, meaning the way. What, during COVID? Well, just like everything. Just like your whole life and leading up to this person and that way and then COVID and the thing. But what I'm interested in is like, you know, the choice and the decision to find art in it. Is that cathartic? Is it inevitable? Is it, you know? I think it's more inevitable, but I, um, I don't know if I was looking for catharsis. I knew that I was, you know, alone. And, you know, it's like you, you, the devastating thing really is like you don't, you don't expect people to die, you know, and especially not that woman. You know, and there's nothing that's going to prepare you for that.

And, you know, and we were alone and we were in that house. And, you know, she had just moved down here. And, you know, she was basically staying with me most of the time. And she just got sick. And then, you know, a week later, she was dead. She just got sick. We thought it was a strep throat or something. She didn't have COVID.

And, you know, I just got scared because, who can get the fever down. And then I said, no, we can't just wait this out anymore. She tried antibiotics. And it all happened very quickly. And then we were going to go to the doctor. And then she collapsed that night.

And, you know, it was horrifying. And, you know, like, I didn't really, you know, I didn't know her family. We hadn't integrated families yet. So, you know, if I hadn't asked her for the code on her phone when they were taking her away, I don't know what the fuck I would do. I was the woman, I was the guy she put down as to contact because she didn't think she was going to die.

So now I'm calling the ICU. and she's unconscious for that day up until she passes. And I'm saying to the ICU nurse, you know, give me some Shelton's. I don't know these people. And to get them in the loop. So that experience, you know, and then I talk about it on the special, but, you know, my brother flew out immediately and, and, but whatever, the point was is that, you know, two or three days later when I had to do the podcast, do we do what we do when people die on

the podcast? Do we repost their episode and I eulogize them? And for some reason, you know, I was completely in shock and shattered. But I chose to do that. I did that thing. And I really believe that there was some mixture of like, you know, well, this is what we do. You know, my producer was like, you don't have to ever do the podcast again if you don't want to. And I'm like, like, I decided I should show up in this state for people.

It wasn't serving me. You know, why would I do that? It was just like, I felt like if I didn't do. what we usually do, that, you know, where would I be? I was just going to say, where else are you supposed to go? Right, especially given the situation. There was no people around. No, totally.

So, but I also thought like, you know, this is, you know, this is a condition that people will be in. There's got to be something of service here if I show up like this, you know, and do this of me, like, crying in that state, you know, and reposting the original Lin-Sheld. episode, which is where we met. I've never listened to it, but I chose to do it. So my instinct was that, again, like, I don't know that it was selfish, and I do know that I take the actions that I take in my creativity to claim my life.

So, you know, I did that, you know, and I don't know if it helped, but I do know that there was an outpouring of support from fans, and there was an outpouring of support from my community. Did that feel good? Yes. Tell me why. Because, you know, it takes a lot to comfort me, you know, and believe it. You feel comfort that way? When you get hundreds and hundreds of emails from people that are upset. Well, this is subjective. I might get hundreds of emails. It may not comfort me. But in that... You're allowed your own experience and that's what I'm asking you about. No, no, but in that situation, a lot of times I just blow through emails. You're great, we love you, the show's great. But this was like, this is terrible. And I feel horrible.

for your loss. I'm hearing the words you're saying. And I'm just, it's fascinating to me. Meaning I, I'm happy that you, I mean, I'm, I feel good that you felt that comfort. Well, I felt supported by my community too. Like people called. You know, and some people would still would come by. Yeah. No, I don't want you to say that. I don't want you to be like, why doesn't do you know, it's like, it's not, it's not like anything I've ever experienced before. You know, this is something you have no control over and someone is dead. So you, you, you, you, you, You know, so you want to feel better, man. I mean, because you have no control of your feelings.

And, you know, and people like me, that's not a common thing. I was going to say, it's, you know, it's sort of, I mean, the way you start, you know, this special, it's like, it's very, it's very you. And then also, it's very, it's comforting to hear that you were able to receive comfort because I also feel like, if I were to picture you going through this, I would picture you being like, well, fucking, really? Like, of course. Like this shit just happened. Like it's so... Yeah, but you don't have... You don't have the...

You can't do that. Right. Right. You don't... You're incapacitated by emotions to do what you usually do. Right. Like, you can do it for a few minutes. I was going to say...

You can do it for a half hour. So tell me about the... Believe me, I read the Year of Magical Thinking after my dad died. I mean, is that part of kind of the... You know, that sort of that fantasy that you live at, meaning that magical thinking that does happen. I mean, it is a thing. But, you know, was that part of sort of where that comfort then came in? Was it sort of being able to suspend the

things about Mark that are Mark in this situation to receive that? Because I don't think, I think the things about Mark that, you know, define who I am, you know, on an erotic level or a public level or a guarded level is like, you know, none of that shit's going to hold up. And, and, you know, it's better off it doesn't in general, you know, that stuff. You know, that stuff is, you know, it becomes a strange, you become a caricature of yourself through habit, just because you're used to it. So, you know, but none of that can stand up against overwhelming grief. You know, you're going to return to it. You know, I believe I've returned to it. But in terms of the magical thinking, you just, I think that overall, it's not so much mystical in retrospect as it is

wanting to stay connected to who you lost somehow, whether it's through an energy or through whatever, you know, because the absence is profound. There's something about grief that you really, that you touch on in a way that's very special and important, and it's not usually the way that we hear about it and think about it. And so I really, um, what, that it's not unusual. Well, and just like the way that, like, it really felt like you, like you, you, you, you, you skydive into grief, you know, and it's, I don't really think of you, you know, I don't, obviously you're a comic, but, you know, you have a very, like, there's a philosopher

quality to you. Like, take us back 2,000 years and 5,000 years. Like, that's what I would go to Mark Marin for, not to make me laugh, but to make me feel and understand deeply, right? So it's like a very different. So for you to kind of be that raw and really like right in the middle of grief, like it's, it's incredibly powerful and it's heavy. It took us two sittings to watch. Well, I mean, because it is. It's like I, it's very intense.

But the truth is is that like, you know, by the time I did the special. Right. I, you know, I was, I was in control. Right. Right. But that was not, you know, initially it's starting with that podcast. Right. I was not.

Right. But, you know, when I was workshopping that stuff or trying, I write on stage, so it's a matter of riffing through stuff. And I do a residency typewriter for a month. I love Dynasty typewriter. But like I would do all the Tuesdays and audience. What was that like? Were there times when you were like, oh, this is not the way to deal with grief in this workshop? But see, the thing is, I don't know that anyone has an answer for that.

But I knew that I trusted my fans enough because, you know, I know who they are and they know who I am. enough to where like I'm going to be processing among other things, the loss. And, you know, there were times where, you know, I was doing an hour and a half, two hours of talking. And, you know, I couldn't keep my emotions together. But, but the odd thing about what I see in the special and what evolved around the conversation about grief is like, yeah, I was, I was devastated. I could not stop, you know, I went to New Mexico to try to fucking process by myself. It's fucking COVID, man. So I flew in. I drove to Taos alone. I got an Airbnb and I'm hiking in the mountains and I'm watching flickering aspen trees and talking to Lynn,

you know, and like I go out to lunch with my buddy Devin, who I've known since I was a kid, we were eating enchiladas and I become incapacitated by crying out of nowhere. Yeah. You know, and I could not control it. And I don't know if it was the talking. I don't, I just believe that And I still believe, and I, people, I don't know if it's by virtue of my self-centeredness, I don't know, but I knew that talking about it, not unlike Shiva, not unlike anything else, that you're going to sit with this. You know, and, you know, it's a human thing that, that's what evolved was that, you know, once I found, like, the sadness is going to be what it's going to be. Like, that hummingbird thing is a real thing, right?

So if I was to tell that story without, you know, adding the next day there were four hummingbirds. So that would still be a profound human story. Sure. But, you know, but that layer of grief is going to stay there. Totally. There's nothing you can do about that. Right. So to counterbalance it and find the balance between humor that, you know, that can sustain and hold the grief, that was the trick.

Well, really, that's what it is. It really elevated, it elevated that emotional experience. For me as a fan and as a listener, and as someone who also I lost Leslie Jordan recently and we recently had a tribute for him and I was like, oh, all grief is connected because I'm, I can't get over it. And I just like, opened it up. And then I'm like, it's also my dad. And it's like, you know, it's everything.

So that I think also was like so powerful because. Grief. It's all around us. Right. That's the episode. No, but I think it's, but it's important. it's important because the comics you mentioned, the style of comedy that you mentioned, and especially there's something, this is what I want to ask you, there's a very specific ethnic quality to the way

that you think and the way that you speak. And it is one beat in that, in that special. That, like, it only happened twice, that beat. And it almost seems cavalier. But, you know, in, in that, there's a couple moments in that special that one or two happened that night for the first time. and one only happened once before. And, you know, it was a weird choice, but it's truly the most Jewish joke in the special. And it's jarring, but it gives people a pass. It's that joke where, you know, my girlfriend died. It was really the worst day of my life, and I'm sure for hers, too.

So there was a term, but the delivery is fundamentally Jewish. And it's a joke that's sort of like, whoa, you know, like, but it's, the logic is good and it's not necessarily insensitive. Sure. But somehow or another, it was like the setup of that section. 100%. So this is what I wanted to ask. And I was raised, you know, I was raised like Jackie Mason. You speak the most freely with your Jewish jokes.

As the only other people that speak that freely for me are comics like Jackie Mason who are literally standing on the best. basis of them being Jewish as the, and that's not your, that's not your shtick. But consciously. But exactly. I pushed back against Jackie Mason when I started doing comedy. Right. One of my, when I was a comic, early, a younger comic, you know, I refused to talk about Judaism.

Right. Because I, I didn't see any way to do it other than like, no Jews that go to the thing and they sit at the place, you know, like, oh, the Jew goes on vacation, you just look for months of places, you know, and so I could not, I was like, there's no fucking way. I, that guy lives in me. Sure. Whatever kind of person I am, you know, this special is about anti-fascism, as much as it is anything else. I've been working on this joke, though, that I love is that, like, it happened after the special, but I say, like, you know, I'm not religious, I'm Jewish.

And which gets a laugh from a certain type of Jew. And like, people literally ask me, you know, do Jews have heaven? I'm like, it's not clear. I don't. What about hell? We don't know, really. It's very complicated. There might be something. We like to keep our options open. I was very aware of what I was up against culturally right now and the notion of what is risk-taking in comedy and what isn't. What is edgy and what isn't. And, you know, like I've always been, you know, part of that conversation. And I've been a comic that, you know, was, you know, doing things just to provoke and be shocking. And, you know, I used to do what, I used to be that guy. It's like, There's a story that I tell sometimes about, like, years ago, I think it was when Louis was doing his first Liderman in back when we were still friends, but we were young comics. And we're walking around. And like he, it was some, it was within days of the Oklahoma City bombing that he was supposed to do his first letterman.

And we're walking around the lowery side, the village. And he's like, I don't know, man, I don't know what to do. I don't know, do I talk about it? I don't know how to handle that news. And I'm like, of course, I'm like, you've got. to talk about it, dude. And like, not even, like, really think about the fact that this is a five and a half minute set.

And I'm telling this comic, like, how are you not, you're just going to leave that sitting there? The Oklahoma City bombing? You've got to talk about it. So apparently, Louis goes to Bob Morton, the producer of the Letterman show, and he's like, I don't know how to handle the bombing. You know, Marin says, I really, I should address it. And Bob Martin goes, yeah, that's why Marin's not doing the show.

So I was definitely of the. type of comic that was a button pushing. I did heinous jokes when I was younger. But I evolved as a person. Then I started to realize that the risk is going to be personal. But I knew at some point that the only way I can guarantee originality is if I talk from me. So once that started to happen, then the risks became different. And feeling that stuff out became different. But then, like, you know, with this special, there's a lot of fuck you in it to comics. you know, in the sense of, you know, a certain type of comic where, like, you, if you're going to pigeonhole me as a storyteller, like, even your friend Eliza Schlesinger insulted me, you know,

but I didn't bring it up to her. And this always pisses her now. Let's always pisses her off when I do this, because I've done it before and I've gotten into shit with her. But this is not, you know, but this idea, like she came out to me like literally recently. And she's like, you know, you should really probably do like a more of a one-man show thing. I'm like, you know, go fuck yourself. You know, I'm a club comic.

You know, just because I don't yell without timing. it doesn't mean that I've said that to her face. And she's doing fine. But nonetheless, the idea of framing what I do is not stand-up. Like, I am a stand-up before I am anything else. And these are the challenges of my comedy. And this is how I decided to do stand-up. But there's nothing.

I have all the stand-up bonafetes or bonafides or whatever you want to say. You can't take that away. So this was me, and fortunately, landed as such saying like, you know, this is all of it, man. And I dare you to tell me I'm not a stand-up comedian. Yeah. Where, um... Is that weird?

No. No, no, no. I mean, I totally agree. I'm, there's a, there's obviously an entire set of conversations that, you know, I think we've all been having and, you know, especially since, you know, in the last 30, 40 years about comics and comedy. But more recently. So more recently, the conversation has turned from.

not just sort of like, what's funny and who are you offending, which is, you know, very banal. Like I'm kind of over it. Yeah, for sure. I think we all are. That's why somehow another, my special is popping a little bit. Right. Well, so at what point are you able, either you or us collectively, to say, I cannot separate this person from their comedy, meaning their bad behavior, their erroneous behavior, things we don't like? I'm not asking you to be specific.

At what point do we say we can separate or that we can't? That we can't. Well, I think that the expectation culturally is to say you can't separate them. But, you know, and I don't know. So is there a place that we can or have we surpassed that in comedy land? No, I do it in my mind all the time. I mean, you know, like I still will cite, you know, when people criticize me for sitting down. Right.

as being something other than... What I was saying before is relatively important to me, and I don't know that I've ever sort of framed it in that way before that. You know, I chose stand-up as my medium, and I'm doing with it what I do with it, but it's thoroughly stand-up comedy. And this is how I do it. And I need to say that out loud to myself.

In terms of, you know, like, can you still listen to a Bill Cosby record? You know, can you, you know, still, you know, quote, Louis like you want to. Like, Louis is mad at me for reasons that are, whatever. You know, he feels like I betrayed him because I had to address, you know, and I thought I addressed it well, but apparently he doesn't. Whatever. I'm willing to lose that friendship because it puts a lot of people in a weird position

when something happens like that. But I think on some level, it's going to be a personal choice. And whether you do a public deal with your choice. I mean, you can not forgive somebody for what they did or, or, believe that they did wrong and still, you know, at least frame their work in a different place. I think we do it all the time. I'm, I guarantee you that at least 75% of the creative people that you love and respect are fucking monsters. Oh, I think more than 75%. So like, you know, they, a lot of them no one knows, but, but whatever. There's a, there's a nature of the,

yeah, it's a new thing that we actually know what people are thinking, doing and saying when they're not on a stage. Yeah, I thought when that first started happening with entertainment tonight, it was over. Like, I was like, this is going to be a problem. There's no mystery anymore. Everybody knows when it's my birthday because of entertainment tonight. But yeah, I mean, I think it's a personal decision for yourself. Like, I am able, like, I find myself, you know, talking about my friendship with him more. And certainly there's been periods in my life where advice was given and there are heroes of mine in comedy. Look, I speak freely about, you know, Sam Kennyson, who, you know, who had a profound impact on me at a very, you know, young age in a way

in my 20s and was really terrible to me in a lot of ways. But, but, you know, he was a monster and he was a public monster. And same with Dice. You know, like, I brought up Dice the other day in a fairly compassionate way and I got an email from some women like, that guy. And I'm like, look, man, that guy is an old Jew who I see around and, you know, and I get a kick out of them. You know, I know, like, you know, a lot of people thought the character went too far, but like that story I told about Dice, like that moment I had with him that I can't even, like, I never want to not think about it. Like, I'm standing there with that guy. I don't know if you know him, but he's Dice. He's like, how are you doing? What is it? What is it? And, you know, he's all done up and he's got the thing

going. But like, you know, the case, he, but he's like that. It's like most of my family in Queens. And, you know, but I get, like, he offended a lot of people. I understand all that. But, you know, this is my community, right? And I've seen Louis, and he was actually pleasant to me recently, even though he hates my guts now. But nonetheless, so I see Dice in the hallway, and I'm talking to him because I get a kick at him. There's no way you can't be like, you know, the matter what is it the thing? So, so we're standing there.

And this kid comes up to me. He says, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mark, you know, I was going to email you. And I just want to say, like, you, like, you changed my life. and you really help me in a dark place. And like, I just really, you know, I just, I wanted to tell you that. I really wanted to thank you for, you know, really, you know, helping me in my life. And the guy walks away and dice, because it just cocks his head, goes, I never get that. What I get, what I get is, you know why I got in trouble.

You know why I had to move out of the house. You're why my life is a disaster. Different legacies. Just a different side of that coin, you know. The self-awareness of it was just so beautiful. I never got it. It's just like this beat, and he just was right on it. I love comedians, you know, really.

But I also hate them. What are you going to do? I love myself as much as I hate myself. Like I wrote a line once. It's like, when I hate myself, I hate everyone who has ever liked me. What you said about relationships is, especially with people that you like and feel attachment to, you will not break up with them.

You will treat them so badly that their only option is to be like, get out of my face. I want to drive a screwdriver into your eyeball. And then you were like, all right, if that's how you want it, but I really love you, don't leave me. The worst. No, it's not the worst. It's not the worst. It makes a lot of sense. It makes a lot.

No, but honestly, like in all sincerity, it makes a lot of sense. that is the depth of complexity that you are absolutely saying, like this is what happens when, I call it the scaffold, whatever you want to call it, when there's not that structure that lays down the foundations of the things that we need as primates. You know, human, secure attachment,

knowing someone's there, knowing that your needs are going to be met, like all those basic things that are supposed to happen that often don't. Yeah, but like I think that ultimately if we're being proactive and helping people, You should have the courage to be honest and break up with people if you need to. Was that the public service announcement for Mark married?

Yeah, just step up. I want out. This is over. If you know you want out, don't get married. I'm not getting married again. No. No. I don't know.

I've been divorced 10 years. Don't ask me. No, I don't even really want everyone living in my house. Well, that's the thing. I like things exactly the way I want. want them and it's very. I did, I didn't, a bit that didn't make the special is like, look, I know that I'm a selfish person and that like I'm, I have problems with intimacy and, you know, a little paranoid and

I'm difficult. I know, I know, I know that about myself. I don't know why I need someone in my house telling you that every couple of days. That's amazing. I wanted to ask about the, you know, obviously you find, you, you have found a way to find, not just humor in grief, but to get to like a real heart of grief. Yeah. But there's also something about your cynicism that is so,

it's very endearing. There's a way that I feel comforted when you talk about our inevitable demise that I don't feel comforted about when it's not you delivering it. Funny enough, I think. It's a lack of panic probably. Well, maybe. Yeah, no, I mean, look, you know. Do you not feel panic about it? Well, I mean, I feel better and I feel seeing. if I can say you guys know that this is true, right? And whatever we're doing, it's just to placate these feelings.

And look, you know, I don't know how long it's going to take. It always feels like it's going to be soon. But then all of a sudden, it's not so soon. Right. You know, like, you know, when the sky was on fire and Trump was president, the world didn't end. Yeah. I don't know why. And then, but now I'm like more, now I'm more concerned about like these people that

are preparing for the apocalypse because I'm like, why would you want to live? Right. And, like, and if you do live, now it's just going to be. everyone's just going to be those assholes who prepared. Do you watch The Last of Us? No. Because it's happening. I'm not going to do that.

No, I'm saying, like, everything that I'm watching, I'm like, this is just literally what we're going to, we're preparing for. You're reading about the Colorado River crisis? Yeah. And the water issue? Yeah. Well, that's like, I'm, look, I've applied for permanent residency in your country, and I just want to get it.

Have they accepted you? Did you get your? Not yet. Not yet. Apparently, there's a real backlog from COVID and from actual refugees. Yeah. Like, I can't be like, eight, wait. Can you process go enough with the Afghanis.

I'm a celebrity. Do you feel hopeful at all for the future or we just fucked? I don't know if what I experience is hope. And I imagine some part of how I'm handling my own anxiety around things is, you know, I wouldn't say it's denial, but it's some sort of rationalization. Because ultimately, oh, the. two books I was going to tell you about, the book that changed my entire perception as a template around the type of appearance I had is a book called The Fantasy Bond by Robert Firestone. Oh, yes, I've heard of this.

Yeah. Yep. It's good. I thought you were going to say Trapped in the Mirror. No, I tried to read that. Couldn't get through Trapping the mirror. All right. What was the other one?

Well, the denial of death, I think, is a good general sort of. Light reading. That's just light reading for, you know. That's your shock history. making is that, you know, everybody needs to attach themselves to something bigger than themselves in order to find meaning, but also just to not be screaming and crying all day long. So whether the world is ending or not. Yeah, that's how people survive.

People thought the world was ending since the beginning of the world. But it actually is ending now for, and we're the cause of it. Before it was just a lack of understanding about natural phenomenon. But there's a Kabbalistic notion, what you just said, there's a Kabbalistic concept that, like, I'm the living Kabbal. That's exactly what I was thinking. No, the notion is that like there are things that we have to do to survive every single day to not go completely crazy. Right. And that the notion of whatever this, you know, next age is, which, you know, I'm not trying to be religious about it, but whatever a shift in consciousness might look like would actually mean more of an acceptance of the reality of our world instead of this like fantasy land, which, you know, in many cases, Christianity sort of took a very different perspective on what this next world would be like.

but the actual, like, mystical concept is that, like, we would all be awake to the suffering that we're all living in. And there's a certain amount of denial that has to exist for us to, like, wake up every morning and feed the cats and, like, take your kids to school or not have kids. Whatever. Okay. It's been a real pleasure talking to you. We are just so, so thrilled to get to hold space with you here. And thank you. Thank you for holding the space.

Very, very nice to meet you guys, and I had a good time. Tell people where to find stuff. Oh, HBO. Yeah, this special. from bleak to dark and WTFpod.com is where you can get the podcast. We can get it anywhere you get the podcast.

All right. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's My Ambiolyx breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction.

And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown.