Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Margaret Cho: Remove Your Investment in Pain

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

Margaret Cho (comedian, Fire Island, Flight Attendant, Hacks) opens up about dissociation, queerness, and her love for rescuing animals. She gives us a peek into her impressive cat palace, explains what bisexuality means to her and why comedy is her safe space. Margaret discusses the origins and triggers of her struggles with dissociation and how she is able to harness its benefits in her acting. She takes us through her journey through recovery from opiate abuse and her experiences with EMDR therapy. Mayim breaks down compulsive overeating, and she and Margaret consider the notion of palatability within the entertainment industry, especially when it comes to body- and age-shaming.  See Margaret Cho on tour: https://margaretcho.com/tour/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I played Kim Jong-il and Kim Jong-un-un-in-n-thirty rock. It took me less time to transform myself into Kim Jong-il than it did to me, woman, as myself. Hi, I'm Mayambiolic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's Myambiolic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because, you know, she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. We have a very emotional episode today.

I cried a couple times. But before we get into who made me cry, the person who makes me cry the most, Jonathan Cohen. That's the exact intro I was writing in my head as you were talking. I was going to cut it and I'm like, okay, if she doesn't introduce me right away, I'm going to say, the person who makes me cry the most, here I am. Jonathan. We have a very, very. exciting guest today, someone that I've admired for a long time and have been able to kind of bump shoulders with a few times because we have some acquaintances, friends in common.

Is it someone who Vogue calls the top nine female comics of all time? I would venture to say yes. We're talking to Margaret Cho. Producer Valerie said, this episode is all the things. It just has everything in it. When I was reading the research, I was like, oh, that's a topic, that's a topic. I mean, Every paragraph. Her life, if you don't know who she is, if you're not familiar with her, this is a stellar episode in terms of content about body image, identity, dissociation, addiction. If you do know who she is, this is also a stellar episode because, I mean, even I didn't realize

I mean, I've seen her comedy where she does talk about a lot of these things about bisexual. I mean, her discussion of sexuality was so frank, so interesting. I cannot wait for people to hear this. So I'll be brief. but there's so many things about her and her journey that are kind of like all related, but could each be their own separate episode. Yeah, I'm just very excited. She's also on the flight attendant.

She has a recurring role. That's the Kaylee Quoco show. She's on tour. She has a movie coming out, June 3rd. What else was I going to say about March? Fire Island, June 3rd. Which she describes as a Korean gay pride and prejudice. That is how she describes it.

She also has a guest spot on hacks. She has a guest spot on hacks. Have you seen that? No, but she has hairless cats. Her house is an unbelievable, like, construction. Yeah, it's a cat playground. Like, I've never seen. No, like the floor is literally carpeted with fabric for cats to scratch.

I mean, the outdoor play area was, like, unbelievable. No, but it's just like, it's a cat, Shangri-La. It's a paradise for cats. And there's, like, design sections. There's themes. There's areas. It's a Japanese section that has China town. I think she actually threw the gauntlet down and was like,

you don't love cats as much as I do. You're not serious about. She's right. Yeah. I want to love them as much as she does. You need to up your game. Do not think my house needs more cat things. I mean, based on her house,

your house doesn't even have any cat things. My cat shouldn't know what goes on at her house. They will not want to live here. They will pack their bags right away. With that, let's welcome the incredible Margaret show to the breakdown. Break it down. So the house is. always sort of been like kind of, it just works for cats.

So, you know, it's always, this is their little pagoda. Yeah, that's a very nice pagoda. And then they have, I mean, it's just a good place for cats. So, but, you know, there's a lot of coyotes and stuff. Right. So then we have a mid-century caddio. So that's their like, you just say mid-century catio?

Yeah, that's my favorite century for cadios. That is my favorite century for cadios as well. They have their little ramp. Wait, so it's enclosed? Yeah, this helps. It's enclosed and then there's two sides. So there's a little like a tunnel that goes under this deck that goes to the other side. Super into this.

And then you can sit out there and they can play and you can be out there. Because with my hairless, he wanted to be near me all the time. It's like a thing. Kitty. They like different ethnic foods. They like different Asian foods. Oh, Lucia wants you. to get in on it. So this is their fat, Mount Fuji. Right. And this is their is Akaya.

And this is their Chinese castle. It's amazing. I mean, everything's amazing. I mean, this is the best cat house I think I've ever seen. I mean, the real question, Margaret, is when can I move in? Yeah, anytime. Wait, is that a cherry blossom tree? Yeah, this is their cherry blossom. They're scratching. They have a couple of these. They have some like butons. Yep. And they have their gym. They eat on the dining room table, which I've never used this table.

So this is perfect. And so usually there's like, there's only a few games out today. They have their scratching bar. So all the different textures. And then they have, there's three bird feeders out today. There's no birds. Oh, that's great. Do you have any chattering cats that when they see birds, they make that weird sound?

Yeah, they all chatter. Oh, that's amazing. amazing. But they chatter, they seem to chatter more at the television when I turn on cat TV. And then they really will run at the TV and try to get the birds on the TV as opposed to the birds in life. I'm very into all of this right now. Margaret Cho, welcome to our breakdown. It is such a pleasure to get to talk to you. I'm such a long time fan. This is really exciting. I'm okay, I might cry a little bit. We've crossed paths because we have Eliza Schlesinger and other kind of comedian hangouts that we've, well, I hang on the edges of a lot of Eliza's things and get to observe all these incredible

people, in particular female comedians that I've loved. I've been a very large fan of yours for quite some time and I hope I didn't fan girl out when I've interacted with you before. But the thing that I'm most excited about is that this, episode of our podcast may end my career or not because the thing about Margaret Cho is that almost every single thing that you have said that is like either like controversial or blah blah I have wanted to say or I've said I love it I love you that's so great I grew up in Los Angeles going to public school in the late 70s early 80s and all of the students in my class were from Korea I grew up with a tremendous amount of of Korean kids, Mexican kids, kids from Mexico.

No one else really talked about Koreans except in my public school. Like it wasn't in the media. Like it wasn't. So when when you kind of came into my sort of consciousness, I was like, look, it's a person talking about this population of people that I don't, you never really talk about or hear about. So I had such. Right.

Such respect for also the consciousness you brought to your identity. And I just, I love how you are. articulate so many things about the female experience that's complicated and layered. And I'm just a very, very big fan and just really excited also to have you on a podcast where we talk about mental health, because so many of the things that you have encountered lead to a life that is indeed not simple. It is not simple to exist in the kind of multiple identities that you have chosen to live in and also be so honest about publicly. So I'm very excited. I want to talk about all the things. Also, did you know I have a show where I own a cat cafe? Yes. Yes. I'm such a cat person. So I love, I love, I love the show.

And I want to be on the show. I feel like I could be a good purveyor of cat things. I don't know why this hasn't happened yet. I don't even, I mean, we'll make it happen. Oh my gosh. I just, I had no idea. This is going to sound really lame. But I'm one of those cat. people who like, I think other people think I'm a crazy cat lady. But I really like just to see the space that you have set up, that looks like such a wonderful place to exist if you are a cat person. Like that's amazing to me. Oh yes. Yes. I love it. I mean, I think that cats are so important to life. I've always loved them. And the pandemic was the one time where I was off the road for long enough what I could actually consider having cats.

And now when I do go back on the road, I have somebody come and live here. Yeah. But it's a really great thing to have a place where cats are really spoiled. And I feel like there's room for other cats. It's kitten season. And I mean, you know,

this house could probably sustain a good couple of litter. So I think that, you know, rescue cats are really, I mean, I'm usually rescuing dogs. So I've rescued dogs for about 30 years. And all the dogs have had have been pretty. big. So I never thought I could have cats too. So, but she's so, my dog is so small and the cats are actually bigger than her. So it works out very well. This is Lucia. Oh my God. It's like a cat. She's a little cat dog. It's a chihuahua. She's a chihuahua, um, Dalmatian, which I don't see,

but she's only about five pounds. The cats are about eight pounds. Uju could be about 10 pounds, maybe now. But so they all get along very well. And does your dog play with the cat items? Because your house is just like designed to for the cat mind. How does the dog interact with that environment? Well, the dog really appreciates all of the bird feeders. And the cat toys, he like she tries to sort of play with them,

but she doesn't really understand exactly all of the cardboard scratchers or anything. but sometimes she'll like lean on it. And she definitely loves all the cat beds. They have a bunch of heated cat beds. So she'll lay on those. And they have these kinds of, they have like a big garlic bed. And then they have a big peach bed.

So she likes their like enclosed beds. They have a little pink pagoda that's on my bed. And she likes to lay in there. That's the hot spot in the house right now is everybody wants to get inside of the pink pagoda bed. at night. I mean, that's, that's the story over here too. Does the dog ever look at the cats up on that amazing catwalk and like you could just look in her eyes and be like, how do I get up there? Well, she's definitely not so enthused about the vertical spaces. So she's not, she doesn't

see them as like kind of being positive. I think she gets a little nervous even when she's. Yeah, she's a dog. Anywhere higher than the couch. Yeah. Yeah, she's truly a dog. The vertical spaces aren't I'm feeling. Jonathan, you're very focused on the cats and dogs. I'm focused on the reason that Eliza has never invited me over to Margaret's house is because Eliza knows I would never leave. I don't think you would. Margaret and Myam got married and it was because of me and it created a Hollywood scandal.

Margaret, I actually just want to warn you, I don't think you should have her over. No. This is a serious, serious concern. I will be in that pagoda and I will never leave. I love it. I love it. You got to kiss these cats. They're so, you know how the, I mean, the.

Peterbald, I'm sure, feels the same. We said it was like a shammy, like a fine shammie. Like if you had a very expensive vintage jaguar and you had that cloth that was only used for polishing the jaguar, that's what my cat felt like. Yes. Look, I'm going to get attacked on the internet for what I'm about to say. Uh-oh. When I see those cats, there's a little bit of me that is frightened and I feel like I should

just stay away because they have some sort of magical powers that I am not aware of. Then you shouldn't. You shouldn't touch them. Or I might anger and they might like cast a spell on me. People used to say that about Esau that he looked evil. Not evil, just otherworldly in a way that I'm not totally sure of. They are. They are otherworldly. They are. They're otherworldly. They're Canadian.

Wait. Yours are Canadian? I think the origin of Sphinx are in 1966 Toronto. What? And they appeared out of, I think it's another like recessive gene. Right. Well, yeah, for Peterbalds, it was a spontaneous mutation. Also, you know, if you take off your hat, the top of your head feels a little bit like. Maybe that's why it freaks me out.

Because it looks like you. Anyway. Miami-Bialx breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times, especially on the perimenopause journey.

That's why we're fascinated by what superpower is doing. They send a licensed professional to your home or you can visit a nearby lab. One simple blood draw with over 100 biomarkers. That's way more than you usually get. It unlocks a true understanding of your body. Their app has detailed information on heart, liver, thyroid hormones, metabolism, vitamin and mineral levels, even environmental toxins. From disease prevention to treating that annoying brain fog or simply optimizing your gym game,

superpower is the most comprehensive and advanced system out there. I've been super tired of constantly guessing or just trying to read articles online about what to do for health. Superpower gives you an actionable health plan based on personal results. It's a real game changer. Plus, they have an on-demand clinician team to answer questions. Supplement or prescription suggestions can be directly bought through superpower, so you don't have to go anywhere else. They also have nutritional guidance, tips for lifestyle and behavioral adjustments.

You even get your true biological age that you can track over time. Superpower used to cost $499. Right now, it's $199 for the full experience, which is much more affordable than anything else out there. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com.

use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my ambiolic breakdown to help support the show. I have so many questions about just how you got to be you. I'm curious, you grew up in San Francisco. Yes. Which is just an awesome place, I would imagine, full of so many kinds of people, things, opinions, beliefs, systems. What were you like as a kid?

I was very shy. I was very scared. I remember getting like bullied a lot as a kid because some girls had written on the bathroom walls and then like this graffiti that like bled out into this hallways in school that I was a lesbian, which is true. But when you're like 10, like you don't really understand like what even that means. Like it was very scary. And so I was very very, very withdrawn. I think it made me dissociate. So I have that sort of like thing of like a little bit of dissociation or I think that's what it is where I just kind of like fade back. And it's something that comedy really helps me with because comedy is in a sense, people are afraid to speak publicly, but I'm really confident because it's the one place where you have witnesses. So you don't feel like

you can be attacked or anything. There's something about it that's. feels very safe and it's the one place that I actually don't dissociate. So it's a good thing for me to be able to do. So I started comedy very early at 14 and San Francisco was such a big comedy city and my favorite comedians were people like Paula Poundstone and of course Robin Williams and, you know, there was just so much going on. But I started my career very early. I think because of my problems connecting with other people and also, you know, there was just so much going on. And, uh, you know, there was just so much going on. Um, but I started my. I started my career very early. I think because of my problems connecting with other people and also even to my own point of view. Like the only way it made sense was through jokes and through doing stand-up comedy. So do you come from a funny family?

Were your parents immigrants? Were your grandparents immigrants? Were you longtime San Francisco residents? Yes. Well, my grandparents and parents are immigrants. They came in 1963. So, and then my grandparents came. My parents came in 1963 and my grandparents came a little bit after that. in the early 70s. And so they were funny, but they don't have a lot of self-awareness about it. But they were great propagators of cacti. So they would like go and we would go to like different parks all over

and they would steal cuttings and then root them. And then we had huge gardens of cacti like all over the place. And my first memories are from like touchy. cacti because it looked soft and I would get spines all down my hand in between my fingers. And I just remember them being picked out. And I never learned because I kept doing it because they look so appealing. And now I have some cacti, but they have no thorns. But I like that. I think it's called Monstrose, if they're not thorny. Who knows? But it's a very appealing thing, cactus and plants. And so now I've sort of embraced more of my plant.

life and my family's plant a horticulture background. And what did your folks do? My parents owned a bookstore, a gay bookstore called Paperback Traffic in San Francisco because my father loves male attention. He's very handsome. He's still very handsome. And so he always just would get fond over by all these men at the bookstore. And this is in the 70s.

And so, you know, they were all dressed up like in, like, cowboy outfits. And it was very popular. Cowboy Leather Daddy outfits were very popular. Sailor outfits. Wait, so hold on one second. Did they open the gay bookstore with the express intention of him wanting to have male attack? How does an immigrant Korean couple open a gay bookstore?

Well, he really loved. city lights. So city lights is the very famous bookstore that was run by the beats in San Francisco in the 60s. And then so he wanted to have a place that was like a bookstore that would also have readings, signings from authors that would have events like, you know, poetry readings and things like that. And so they purchased a gay bookstore. That was, it was just what was being but then my father was like really into it. And there's all these painters that work there and they would paint my father. He still has the portraits hanging up. Wow. Was there ever like a question for your mom about like him getting all this attention and being painted? Uh, no, I guess,

you know, it's weird because it's like, um, it was just something that was totally accepted. It was totally like normalized, like normalized, like normalized. attention, which I think is really unique. I mean, because Koreans generally, it's a pretty patriarchal culture and it's also, you know, traditionally very homophobic. So to have that openness around being admired and not feeling like you're under threat is, I think, very progressive. But, you know, the bookstore was really this place where, um, I'm, I'm, I think, very progressive. I'm, you know, I think that my father could have an entry point into counterculture and artistic life, which at that time was pretty much only open to white people.

You know, so through this like marginalized communities, so we always grew up sort of like in black neighborhoods, in gay neighborhoods in San Francisco, lived there, and then stole cactus from white parks. So you started kind of exploring comedy, as you said, as a young woman. I don't want to skip over this, you know, the notion that being called gay when you were growing up and when I was growing up, that was a general insult also for, you know, it's extremely unfortunate that in many cases it had absolutely nothing to do with children even understanding gender or sexuality or anything. It was considered enough of an insult to hurl at someone. Did you have any concept of your particular sexuality? Or was, do you feel like that was completely unremove?

Was it completely removed from anything about you? I think that I really did understand that I was different in that my relationships with my friends who are girls were so incredibly urgent. I mean, they are anyway when you're a kid with no matter what gender you are or what sexuality you are. But for me, it was like life or death. And I think like when you're being called gay, it's kind of like that weird, I guess what it would be like almost like a thought limiting cliche. Like you can't say anything after that because it shuts everything down when you're a kid. Like if you're being called guilty, that's like the end of the conversation.

It's almost like the sort of be all end all. And then that sort of became the norm until I was about 17. And then everybody was gay. So I ended up getting into comedy. And then I, you know, all the women in comedy pretty much at that time anyway were lesbians. And then there was this books, other other bookstore. It was like a bookstore, sex store. It was a lesbian BDSM collective that I started working at.

I helped them open their retail store. And then everybody was a lesbian and not just a lesbian, but a leather, So like really gay. So then I went into that sort of world of gayness. And then, you know, it was, I think part of the fact that like my parents having the Skate Bookster helped me to feel much more comfortable as an adult being queer because I had so many examples of queerness around me. You know, my father's employees were one of the early supporters of Harvey Milt, you know,

one of those groups. And so that was really powerful. Did you come out to your parents? Did you come out at that time? Yeah. So they still don't understand. They still, they just kind of accept, because I actually am bisexual, which is something that they really have a hard time with. They have a, they have a good understanding of lesbians. They have a good understanding of straight people, but they really don't understand bisexuality. That to them feels really false. So whenever I have a male partner, it's quite troubling. You know, they think they really accept female partners much more readily than they do male partners, I think.

And while we're here, because, you know, there's obviously, you know, you're not much older than me or than Jonathan, but you're part of a very different, it's a different generation of really nomenclature and kind of understanding. And then, you know, Jonathan and I both have teenagers, which is like a whole other understanding and re-education, you know, of what gender and sexuality mean. In your own words, like if you were to describe to your parents what bisexual is, how do you describe it? I would describe bisexuality is I'm attracted to my own gender and other gender. Because bisexuality is sort of an outdated term in that it kind of infers that there's only two genders, which I don't believe.

I think gender is really infinite. Gender expression is really infinite. So you can say that bisexuality for me exists in that I'm attracted to those who identify as female and those who don't identify as female. So that's what it is. It's really beautiful how you can articulate these things. Is that attraction? Is it sexual? Is it emotional? Is it, is it all of the things? Is it more? You know, because a lot of people think like, oh, you'd like kiss a girl at a party that doesn't make you bisexual. But like what is it for you? Is it relationships? Is it sexual? Like, what is the whole of it? It's degrees of involvement that have oddly, in fact, moved away from sexuality in the last few years and moved towards an emotional.

attachment sort of feeling. Like it's like, I think that I've been closer to asexual now than I ever have been and moving towards that since menopause. For whatever reason, it's totally something I never expected because I thought that I would always be very involved sexually no matter what I identified as. That would be a big part of my life. But for some reason the drive towards that has really gone away, but my emotional attachments and my emotional relationships have gotten deeper. But across the board, I really find different people attractive for different reasons. And I want to connect it with them romantically in different ways, but less sexually now. So asexual, but not a romantic. Got it. No, that's really beautiful.

And I have one more question. I mean, this is just, it's really fascinating to talk you about this. Would you say that there's a type of female interaction that you're most attracted to and a type of male interaction, meaning, you know, are you mostly, in terms of male relationships, do you find that you resonate with men who are more emotional, verbal, you know, kind of, I don't want to say feminine, because I also think that's an outdated term. Are you attracted to women who are more, again, like I don't want to use the wrong terms, but who are more, um, has, you. How do I say it? I mean, we used to say like Butch and Frem, but I, you know, like I don't.

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm an old school femme. I'm an old school femme who I love like a James Dean Butch. I love like a rebel without a cause, no matter what form that takes. So I love rebellious people, whoever that may be, you know, I find that I'm really attracted to people my own age and above. and that's something that is really clear to me.

I've tried to date younger people and that's just so strange. I think it's so strange. I really relate to age because I think with age brings a lot of diversity in your gender expression. So there's more comfort in that and the more like joy in rebellion, which I think is really special. And I always think of menopause as like second people. It's like when you really become who you're supposed to be. And I really love that. And is there a kind of man in particular, like that that is a type for you? Or would that also be sort of a James Dean? I think it's like more like a free thinker and somebody who is just themselves,

you know, and that is actually rare, you know, when you can sort of meet somebody that's a sort of an original person. And in general, it really varies in physical type. There's no real physical type. And in a sense, there's no real sort of emotional or mental type. Usually they're smart. I hope so. I want them to be. But because I get bored pretty fast, I think.

And they have to love all things living. So I would love a botanist. I would love a veterinarian. I would love any kind of animal person, plant person. Those are my people. I don't know if you can answer this, but I'm curious. Why is it that a lot of female comedians are lesbians? Because female comedians don't care what men think.

And a lot of times that translates to being a lesbian, because that's just sort of like the easiest way to sort of maybe define. I don't care what men think. Male comedians also need to essentially not care what people. think. It's just like men are, it's more men are like that. Because women are, we're conditioned to care what other people think and take care of other people's feelings. Right. But more men are like that. I think, but male comedians always care what other male comedians think. They don't care about anybody else, but they do care about what other male comedians think. And that's why I think male comedians are so

fiercely protective of each other on social media. You know, if somebody tells him, a joke and whatever they get canceled whatsoever. But every male comedian is out front, you know, defending them to the death. And it's really interesting, like how gendered and sort of old-fashioned that world can be. It's very much of brotherhood, which I think is kind of like, oh, they really do sort of make a union for themselves. It's all mutiny on the bounty. It's all three. Look at Elya Kazan. Bill, where's that thing?

Well, I remember Eliza, I don't know if it was on our podcast, but I had interviewed her years ago also. And she had said, like, she never thought of herself as, like, the hot girl until she became a stand of a comedian. And everybody was like, oh, look, it's a skinny, blonde straight person, you know. Everybody got so excited. And she was like, I didn't even think that that was going to be a thing. And then, like, in that community, you know, it very quickly becomes a thing. Right. She's such a brainy.

She's such a person that, like, lives in her brain. You know, she would just never think to look outside of it. But she's actually quite a beautiful girl. She just never thought to look. I was on a TV show that started in 1990 when like the entire industry was just white men. Like that was it. It was like a cadre. It was just like everybody was white men.

That it was so unusual to find a female people of color. I mean, it was it was a very different world. And so it's also really interesting. You know, I left the industry for 12 years. And, you know, coming back, it's a very different industry. Social media exists. The Me Too movement literally happened while I was on the Big Bang theory. You know, like there was a tremendous reckoning, you know, in our industry.

And we're at a very different place now where, you know, our director of photography on Call Me Cat is an Asian woman. You know, like Patty. like I didn't even know there were female, you know, DPs in television and also an Asian woman. Like, and it's, you see this kind of diversity. And yet there's still this sort of pressure on, especially for women, what's funny? How are you allowed to be? Can you be feminine? Don't be too feminine.

You know, like first year of Call Me Cat, I wore, you know, sneakers and dresses because we thought that was really cool. And then it was kind of like, well, does she really need to wear? sneakers and dresses, maybe we could go for some other shoes, you know? And it's kind of like that's, it's that notion of like palatibility, you know, and the whole purpose of our industry is to appeal, right? At some point for your success, you have to appeal to people. I'm wondering, like, what was that like, especially for you, both as a young comedian and then being on television with all of these kind of competing needs, both yours and then the publics and the executives? What was some of that like? It was really shocking because being a stand-up comedian, you could say anything,

do anything look like anything. And it didn't matter. Your words were all that mattered. And then going into the world of sitcom television in the 90s was really hard because I was suddenly too fat. I was suddenly didn't look right. I suddenly had to just really do my hair. I suddenly had to wear extensions. I suddenly had to like do it up, you know, and I just never thought of myself in those terms. So it was very much like being, I guess like being in drag. Like it was very like putting on the drag of a woman, which would take me hours. Like I remember when, um, even like later on, uh, I was comparing like I played Kim Jong Il and Kim Jong-un and 30 Rock. And I, um, it took me less time to transform myself.

into Kim Jong-il than it did to me woman as myself. And it was so shocking and terrible. Like, like, I would just rather not have to do anything. So I really reject, like, I hate wearing makeup. I hate doing anything to my hair. Like, I hate sort of any of that stuff. I do appreciate fashion and I appreciate the artistry of all of that. But to me, like, just as a person, it's just so uncomfortable.

And I hate like high heels and this doesn't feel good, you know? Like I love the idea of it, but to put it on is really, to me, very constrictive and a problem. How did you do it at that time? I just really disassociated, I think. That's where like being a sort of a victim of early trauma really resurfaced there. And so when you're dissociating and then also like you can't always reliably dissociate. So I would do a lot of drinking. I would do a lot of drugs.

And that all was sort of to medicate my own like stress, mental issues, problems. And so it wasn't satisfying. It wasn't even fun. Like I wish it could be like rock and roll and fun, but it wasn't. So fortunately, all that is behind me. but it's something that like, you know, you can't, some people don't survive that, you know. The 90s was a really hard time, I think, for mental health.

I think a lot of mental illness was really glorified, unfortunately, in the culture, which all those artists I really love, but at the same time, self-hatred was kind of a brand, you know, and that I think was really devastating to a lot of people. Can you give a few examples just so people, Because, you know, I was, let's say, I mean, I was in my teens in the 90s. So just give people a little bit of reference point for kind of the culture you're talking about. The Grunge era, which I love all of the music of the time.

But if you look at sort of the way that I think even adds like K1, which was a very popular fragrance, and it was marketed as a kind of unise. sex, punk rock, grunge, fragrance, but all of the models were so thin. And it was almost like, you know, like gender was really related to weight, that to be outwardly feminine really meant it was because you carried a certain amount of weight and that gender had so much to do with the physical body being a certain size. And genderlessness could only be achieved by losing that size. So that sort of like this weird way around controlling the narrative of feminism by erasing women's bodies.

And that to me was a really strange place to be. And as a physically larger person anyway, it was really terrifying to have to like not eat. And I think that's where drugs really came in handy because I didn't. feel like eating after that. And then I had another very famous star who recommended not eating, but just drinking two shots of tequila before you went anywhere. It's sort of like would kill your appetite and make your stomach stick. Right. You couldn't eat anything. But this was probably the worst thing that you could probably do. Yeah. I mean, I learned all sorts of things. I mean, I did not take them on. And it actually wasn't in my teen years. I'm grateful. I was 14 to 19 when I was on Blossom.

We were on TV around the same time. But it wasn't until Big Bang theory, and I'm not just talking, I'm not making this like, my cast members taught me this. I'm saying just we would go to parties. And, you know, I met a lot of people because when I was a teenager, I didn't really go anywhere. I wasn't part of the party group because, as I think Margaret could understand, like, I wasn't that type. When people are like, how did you not get caught up in drugs and alcohol? I was like, no one invited me to parties. That's how. Like, simple answer, which I never talk about. I was like, really? No one was asking, I went home and did homework. But when I was older, you know, and I would like have to go to parties and like, you learn all the things that people do. Like, I didn't know

the things that women in particular and men also, like that you, for three days before you don't eat before an awards show. Like, you only drink liquid. You can do like cantaloupe parade. And then like the day of you can't have anything with too many carbs because it'll make you swell up. And if you have a scene where you have to even be in sleeveless, like, don't eat and do pushups right before and it makes your muscles pop. Like, just all these things that I didn't know about as a kid, but they obviously have been going on forever. Or don't drink water. That the last day you don't drink water. Because you'll have, you'll have water weight. And it's like, and also there's like certain alcohols that you can drink that have like not too many calories, but also give you enough sugar

so that you don't pass out. Like these are literally like things. Like to see an actress eating on television is even funny. Like, look careful. I mean, it's, it's totally revolutionary to see people eating, but, but also just like to not, we finally kind of figured out or to crack this idea that we can't body shame, which to me is like, I still don't believe it, but I'm guessing maybe this, we're entering this area where we're actually not going to body shame people, but that's, I think it's, it's so destructive. And, you know, I can't believe I made it out a lie. But, you know, that stuff is still, I can't believe it's also not there.

I mean, it's just crazy to hear both of you describe these practices that are basically, how do you deprive yourself of all the nutrients and just give yourself enough so you don't pass out? Yeah. So that you can then go get your picture taken. And children and adults everywhere are then like, that's what I want to aspire to, not having any idea that you've done all of this crazy stuff just so that you won't pass out. Well, I stopped, I stopped wearing Spanx. I don't remember how many years ago. I stopped wearing Spanx as a formal statement and also decided that what that meant was that an entire class of clothing was now

closed off to me because the way that Spanx has evolved and the way that it has shaped our culture is that everybody is expected to essentially wear the same dress. So like, when I was a kid or when I was a teenager, even, people who had certain bodies wore things that they liked and that flattered their bodies and then other people wore other things. Now there's one thing that you're all supposed to fit into. So even if you're a size 22, the body shapers, you know, are designed to make you look closer to what the size zero, you know,

sample size women are wearing. So when I made that decision to stop wearing Spanx, it's true. It limited my ability to show off really a lot of curves that I do have because most of those clothes would have. required spanks to make it look like I don't have, you know, a rounded belly, which is actually a normal, you know, physiological thing to have, right? Absolutely. But, but that, that then extends to hair extensions to lashes. I had never tweezed my eyebrows until I came back to the industry. No one was tweezing eyebrows. I had normal eyebrows, right? And now whatever, it's just like a little

couple underneath because I do have a natural arch, which I like very much. But the notion that, oh my gosh you don't tweeze your eyebrows like how could you know like when i came back to the industry and then yeah i mean i went to a red carpet last night i didn't want to wear heels and i didn't did my legs look as good as they should no because i wore like a cool chunky boot and i didn't have any extensions in my hair i was just like i'm gonna wear it up because i don't have much hair anymore. That's what happens. Yeah. I just color in my scalp. Like, yes, that's a thing. We put eye shadow on my scalp now because it's supposed to be normal that I don't, I'm losing hair, but I have to pretend like I'm not. Well, I always like to shave my head, but then you have to

wear more makeup to sort of deflect that. So there's something about, but there's a shame in aging that I think is really, I don't know, it's doing this as disservice, but I always think that there's something weird about my own appetite. That's why I was, I watched your YouTube that was you were talking about Prater Willie. And I was so interested in that

because I'm like, I wonder if there's, if there's a possibility that I have some, I mean, there isn't. There's no way that I could have it. But it's like, I have so much in common. with some of the people that I've seen that do have it, you know? And I wonder, like, is that, is that kind of like strange obsession around food, some kind of like a gene mutation or gene

deletion? I'm a member of overeaters anonymous. I'm a compulsive overeater. So I know that it is either genetics and environment, but the solution to emotions since I'm about 40, yeah, the solution is to feed it. And while it's a different mechanism, let's say, than Prater Willie syndrome, or syndromes that actually change the functioning of your hypothalamus and the ways that you know that you're full. It's the same, you know, to my understanding as alcohol. It's the same as a drug addiction. And, you know, a lot of people kind of laugh when I say like that I, you know, acquired, you know, a compulsive overeating and binging disorder at 40. It was just hiding other places before then, you know.

It was hiding in work. I'm not a person, you know, who chooses alcohol. the way that I've heard it describe, that compulsiveness, that's what it is. It's whatever I'm feeling, I don't want to feel. So I'm either going to work it away, drink it away, eat it away, you know, love it away. Right. It's definitely that kind of unfillable hole that sort of the myth of this hole that we have that to me it's really about appetite, which when I don't control my appetite, I don't really even think about it. Then I just eat when I'm hungry. But when I'm trying to control it, then I can't do anything but think about food. So it's a very strange thing

of like, you know, when you're trying to control yourself, you can't, it's uncontrollable. Margaret, I'm curious to circle back to disassociation. When she made me cry. Yeah. When you made mine cry, you probably didn't see it on the webcam because we're a little farther away. But I mean, I want to circle back not to get gossip, but because I think there are so many people who can relate to this experience and maybe don't quite understand the terminology. You know, so what I was hearing is that you were... Margaret and I are the only ones who understand it in the world. It's the world against us.

Yes. Well, there's a lot of what you were sharing that I've heard Mime talk about. A lot. and almost like could have been verbatim aspects of her story. But when you're having to put on this outfit that is the socially accepted outfit, can you know, more on a visceral level, what's going on for you? Because this association sort of covers the entire spectrum of the experience. But like if someone doesn't understand that and they're like, I don't, and they might not know

that they're having an experience similar to that, can you like walk us through more of the, you know, beat by beat experience of. of what's going on for you? Something for me is like my scalp really starts to sweat. So anything that I would like, any sort of like the eye shadow that I put on my scalp was to start like running down the face. And maybe Rudy Giuliani is this associating

with his in that famous photo where he's just like melting. But it's kind of like when you're in a state of panic, but then the panic turns into a physical manifestation, of whatever that is. So something like your head has started sweating and then you focus on that. Or even if it could set off your mind into a catastrophe spin. So like I say I'm going somewhere on a flight and it's delayed. And then so it's delayed like 10 minutes.

And then so my catastrophe spin disassociates of like I fast forward to I've missed my second flight, which means I've missed the gig I'm trying to go to, which means I'm going to get penalized. that I'm going to get sued, that I'm going to, like, lose my house and then, you know, whatever that is, you know, I'll have to sell my animals. I'll have to, like, get rid of Cat Japan Town. I'd have to, you know, whatever that is. There's sort of like this spiral effect of one uncomfortable thing or an argument with a friend spins out into divorce, lawsuit, whatever. there's a kind of thing of like I can't just stay in the moment of whatever's happening. I have to somehow pre-feel the tragedy it's going to cause ultimately.

And so put myself through that, which is one of the reasons that I like to watch horror films because I can really relax. It's the only time that I can be calm because I don't have to catastrophize because it's happening for me in a creative fun way. but that's sort of an that's kind of my experience of this association is that it's like one thing that is kind of what is unplanned will set off a trigger of a million things that I have in reserve to traumatize myself so I know that that sounds it sounds a little bit a little bit big but that that's really sort of what in in inevitably happens anytime

there's something kind of like a problem and and and also just kind of to distinguish because, you know, many people have the thoughts that you're having. Many people, for example, if they're anxious or have catastrophic thinking, they'll have that kind of cascade of thoughts. But what Margaret is specifically talking about is that those thoughts are a specific reaction to a situation that is untenable. And often, as you mentioned, if you have trauma, in particular, you know, trauma of a sexual nature, you know, if you have that, your brain is programmed to escape. and we do all sorts of elaborate things to escape. And so, you know, that notion, that feeling of like being out of your body, if you've ever had that experience of like, who am I really?

What's happening? Where am I? Which can happen also if you smoke pot and get really paranoid. That can happen to people when they're not stoned. And that is a kind of dissociation which, you know, then leads to other things that we do to compensate. And I was curious how that manifested for you specifically when you, had to dress up and assume the classic female gender identity, you know, would you sort of like go into a place where you're like kind of going through the motions and it's not really you that

it's happening to, like that type of almost removal of being present? Like what was your mindset? What was your physical reaction? Well, you definitely kind of feel like you're somehow how um, cosplaying a person, like you're cosplaying a woman. You're, you're not really there.

Your mind is sort of set somewhere else. Or I would just focus on like a specifically uncomfortable sensation and then go to that point where I'm just going crazy. Like if I have my arms are constricted, like if there's like a sleeve that's too tight, I will just go crazy trying to like bust the seams because I'm just so uncomfortable. So it's these kind of. of like physical things or like I've shoes that are too small I just like focus on that

sensation and it just becomes unbearable. So I think that's also kind of where my dissociation goes. It goes into like one physical aspect of the uncomfortability and then it almost blows it out of proportion. So that's another way that I kind of escape a situation is that I go into the pain of one part of the experience and I can't get out of it. So it's a very, strange set of circumstances that sort of leads me to that. But it's a, you know, it's like you try to get relief somehow. And that's where drugs would come in or alcohol would come in or food would come in. Those kinds of things can help me get almost back into my body, which is an odd thing if you're like thinking about drugs that sort of would move you out. But it's like,

one of the things that I loved about taking opiates is that it really, didn't take away the pain, but it keep me from caring about the pain, which I think is the effect of most pain killers is that they don't kill the pain, but they kill your investment in the pain. And that's really what people are after, you know, because you still feel pain. You can't get rid of that, but you can remove your investment from it. I find that now meditation, that now doing all of my plant chores and my cat chores and my dog chores. When you're cos playing an identity that isn't core to your own identity, obviously that causes an enormous amount of tension and friction.

I get violent. What happens? I do. So you have the reaction? You get violent. Since I'm a teenager, yeah. Margaret talks about like the fixation on a certain experience and that sort of channels that reactions that reaction.

reaction or reaction. What happens or do you know what happens to the identity that is yours when you're forced? I don't know. It's covered up with so much food. I can't tell. Yeah. I mean, it's so deep in there. I mean, that's what I think is so great about acting is that we can bring up these

kinds of dissociative feelings when we're an actor mode. When you're acting, there's something really great about that because we can use. use all of this stuff, this sort of grand imagination that we used to sort of cope with life itself and pull that into what is art, which I think is really powerful. I now can name what happened when I was a teenager. I didn't know then why like, I mean, part of it was social anxiety. Part of it was kind of what Margaret is describing. It was, uh, something was very, very deeply wrong and I didn't want to go. I didn't want to do the thing. I didn't, you know, I didn't want that makeup on my face. and I would tear it off and like I would pull it my hair.

You know, like I, but I didn't know what it was. I just like, I just lived like that. It just kept living like that for like, oh, another 30 years. And, you know, I've been in therapy since I'm 17. Like, I don't know if people understand when they say like, why, are you still in therapy? Because it took that long, people, for me to get to what was going on then. I wish it happened quicker. It didn't.

And for me, my path was not opiates. It was not alcohol. I mean, it was many other things. It was unavailable men. It was food. It was work. Like, name the thing. And I stuffed that God-shaped hole with that too. But that's kind of still this process of where does that person go. And I'm trying to connect it to, you know, people who are not actors, but have a similar experience when you enter a situation that has expectations of you that are not you. And you try to fit those expectations and you give up aspects of yourself in order to do that to make things easier or to play a role or to for whatever reason.

Right. You know, what I think about is, although it's not the same thing, and I'm not necessarily saying this is a conversation about homosexuality, but when you hear about people who live their whole lives knowing they're gay and having to pretend that they're straight, it's like, yeah, you shove it down, you put it away, you know, and then you hear that when when these people are finally free, it's like they're free, but the damage has been done, you know. And again, I'm not comparing this to that. Because not all of this is about, you know, gender or sexuality.

It's whatever the expectations are. Whatever the expectation is. Don't be an artist. Don't do this as a career. Don't date that person. Don't be interested in that hobby. Is this why we're all messed up? Did we just figure it out?

This is why everyone's a mess. Well, we're not allowed to be authentic. And then a big part of dissociation, too, is not knowing, like, not even knowing what you want to do. Because you've pushed it down so far. So I think that's for a lot of, you know, like I think my understanding for my life, like I just didn't understand what I wanted out of life and kind of was going through the motions. Fortunately, it was like kind of good motions that I went in in the most part. But and I was able to enact and sort of like be in this comedic life, like artistic life, stand-up comedy life early enough where just the trajectory of it and the momentum kept moving me forward. How long was opiates the answer for you?

I mean, you're more recently sober, correct? Yes. So opiates probably, I guess, off and on, they were the answer for maybe 30 years. Wow. So, you know, you build and you build a relationship with it and then you tear it down. It's not sustainable because chemically, those things are really just destructive. I mean, it's so, it's almost not even the opiates. It's that all of the stuff that's in there.

It's whatever the acetaminophen. It's all of the other stuff. And then the lifestyle, it's just gross. Like, it's just horrible. And now it's totally deadly with fentanyl and everything. You just can't possibly. It's really, that's the most heartbreaking thing of, you know, being an ex-drug addict. Just either all the people who don't make it, you know.

What were you being prescribed opiates for? Oh, anything. anything and everything. I mean, the thing is that that kind of stuff you could get so easily, you wouldn't even necessarily need to, I mean, there's so many doctors that would just prescribe just very, very irresponsibly. And, I mean, I think even now, like, for I to approach, like, surgery, I would really try to, like, look at other options because I just don't want to have to

deal with that in my system again and sort of knowing what that is. You know, I wish I could be opiate naive, but unfortunately I'm just not. And what was what was getting sober like? I mean, you, you've been very, very honest, you know, I mean, really, really honest and raw about what actually getting sober was like. It was a real, I don't want to say retreat, but it was, I mean, you really did it old school. Oh, well, I was institutionalized for quite a long time. I think that's the best way to do it because then you're just, like, I did it like in a very, I went to Rock Hudson's old compound, which at night I would really like dream about Rock Hudson

and David Niven running around in caftans. because they were sort of like haunting me, but helping me. You know, they had very, very lavish cocktail parties there. And so this is sort of like, I mean, I think that for me, that was really perfect. Of course, at that particular facility, there weren't that many people that went, but about 16 people died. We lose another person from that facility every couple of months because just the rates of survival from drinking and using drugs, it's not very high.

You know, when you're in a facility like that, it is a lot like being in hospice because people who are going into treatment really don't have any of their options, you know. And it was medically supervised, but it was also, there was a lot of clinicians, there was a lot of therapists. There were a lot of different kinds of therapy. I discovered EMDR, which I really liked. That was a kind of therapy that helped me probably the most

because it was so, there was something so secular about it, and it was just all like lights and vibration and movement that really pulled me out of disassociating, and also shame spiral, panic, spout, catastrophic thinking, that really helped me so much. So I'm still very connected with that community, and, you know, I love therapy. I think it's really, really important.

But I really do a, a lot in my life to combat any kind of return to that sort of thing. And I think, thank you for, you know, for sharing also so specifically because, you know, I think a lot of this gets like, oh, they went to rehab or like, oh, they got sober. And, you know, the, the, that kind of like hospice metaphor, as it were, you know, we talk about this a lot, you know, the problem that people who are addicts have, you know, the problem that people who are addicts have, is not the thing that they're using. The problem is that existing without it feels completely unbearable.

So you don't just go into, you don't just take away the thing and, okay, now you do your life and we'll make sure you don't have access to it. And that's why people go to rehab. That's not what happens in institutions and in rehab. What happens is the facility, hopefully a good one, is designed to flood you with alternative. ways of thinking so that you can deal with the emotions that normally would lead you to use. Right. It's so important. It's like you really need the tools to learn how to live. And there was gardening and cooking classes where I was like stationed for a while. So that helped me. I've been

you know, very invested in clay pot cookery. We don't use knives. We use mortars and pestles here. So there's a lot of like crushing of chilies and spices. So it's a very, I think when you learn how to sort of like make meditation your whole life and put it into like cooking and eating and all that, it really helps, you know. Like I feel like my life is so enriched, but I needed those tools because I just was living the wrong way. Dumb question, but I'm sure you'll understand. I don't mean it to sound dumb.

Are you better? I'm way better. I'm so better because I lay in bed with four beautiful animals. I have a bog of carnivorous plants outside, which are thriving off of all of these beautiful flies that they're catching. I mean, it's really incredible. So carnivorous plants are kind of like on the cusp of pet and plant. So I've found my perfect outdoor garden.

and, you know, everything with their mid-century cation catio, this little kitty-sized dog in my lap, I'm so good. I'm like so best, better, best. The only thing that could make it better is if I could be on Calm Me Cat. You have a recurring role on flight attendant with Kaylee Cuoco. So we have to like, we have to fight over the Margaret Cho of it. I love it.

I love her and I love that show. And actually, that show does a really great job and experience Blaining their disassociation and also alcoholism and drug addiction. How does it work when you're on the road? Because your home is clearly this huge area of support and meditative. But then people talk about the work and the hustle and being out there touring. It's totally a different energy. I love working.

I mean, I think working for me is really very, in a sense, another addiction for sure, but it's an addiction that I can really kind of manage and get a lot of joy from. And, you know, I'm very connected with my home and, and that like I can check in. You know, I have somebody here that is like taking care of the animals, taking care of the plants, and then I feel very free going. And I just love what I do. I love that I get to do what I do. And the acting also acting roles have really shifted. So there's a lot more diversity there. So I feel very grateful about that.

And that's so exciting. And I love doing stand-up comedy. So that part of my life is really joyful. And I've seen you. It was before COVID. I saw a set that you did. And I mean, it's ridiculously relevant and hilarious and incredible. and I think I'm on the cusp of cutting my hair off.

And so you have some particular themes around hair that I've been holding with me. And maybe we should just cut it on the air just to a podcast episode where we cut it. We can just cut it. I mean, I think it's so freeing to have short hair. I love having a bald head. The only problem is that I do get very cold. And then my cats and dog really love to run around in my hair. And then like Uju, what he does is he likes to grab my eyelashes when I'm sleeping and put them up like he's lifting a car hood.

Like he's Megan Fox in Transformers and Shia LaBouf is right there. Something very specific. Certain cats are really, really into eyelids. Not cool. Margaret, it has been such a delight to talk to you. you and just so touching to hear not only where you've been, but where you are now. It's really, really inspiring. And I just, I cannot say enough incredible things about this woman. Well, I love you. Fire Island, it's coming out June 3rd. Is that right? June 3rd on Hulu. It stars

the incredible Joel Kimbooster and Bowen Yang. And we had a great time filming it. And it's a gay, Asian reimagining of pride and prejudice. Oh, love it. I love it. It's really, it's a great film. And I love all of those beautiful guys so much. And we had such a fun time making it. And also, are you currently touring or you will be touring? I am currently. I'm currently touring. This week is a big week. So I'll see Eliza tonight, actually. We're doing the Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin comedy extravaganza. Yeah. And I'm missing her show because it's this Friday night, but I'll have to try and come see you. I would love to see you.

I would love to see you. Awesome. I would love it. All right. Thank you so much and enjoy all your babies. Thank you. We'll see you soon. That's a woman who's lived life. All the things. All the things. Also, from such a young age to be, you know, in the world, in the career that you end up staying in. You know, it's so interesting that like she was like a shy kid, you know, and then like became a comedian because like it was a safe place to hide. And then like that's her life. There you go. Like that's your life. The idea that being a standup was safe because there are witnesses. I still don't understand that. I mean, that's terrifying to me. I used to think like that. I used to think like that. I used to think like that. I used to think like that. I used to think like, A hundred percent opposite. I don't want to be gaslit after, but what the interaction was, we could go back and look at the tape to see what I said. Your lens of looking and listening to yourself is also, let's talk about your pants. Okay.

I bought Jonathan a pair of pants. Yes. You did. I love them. That's great. So you went to the store and you returned them for a bigger size, which is completely your prerogative. Exchanged. So when I said to you, this is just, this is a demonstration of.

the lens. Okay. When I said to you, so those actually aren't the pants that I got you. No. What did you say? That's not the first thing

you said to me. You said, are those are the pants that I got you? And I said yes. Because I know, number one, that you have like this very,

like, it's very important to you that you picked out something that I like. So now you went and returned it. But I didn't return it because I didn't like it,

which is what I knew you were at, but hold on. Right. I knew you were like, Did Maim pick something that Jonathan was like, oh, wow. No, I know you love it. I really like, Jonathan really likes us. So I said, yeah, they are the exact pants, which.

They're not the exact pants. Actually, I didn't say that. I said, yes, they're the pants. And you said, but I added, I didn't lie to you. And then I added that I returned them for a different size. Right. Exchange them, actually, is what I said. Right.

And then you said, so they're not the same pants. I said, they're the same pants. They're the same style. They're the same color. but they're not the same fabric. So then I... They are not the exact pair that you gave me, but they're the same pants. If Byron Katie were to say, is it true, those are the same pants?

They are the same pants. They are not the exact same pair that you handed me, but they are the same pants. One of my problems with Jonathan is he redefines words and concepts to benefit him. Let's take a poll. So if we were to videotape you talking about anything so that you could have evidence that people misunderstood you, you would still think it was their problem, not yours. Correct. Pull on At Bialik Breakdown.

Are those the same pants? Are they the same pants? They're the same color. They're the same style. They're the same fabric. They have, they're from the same store. They happen to be a different size, which fits me better. The truth is, I also wouldn't have even bought you those pants if I knew there was a store

two blocks away. I was out of this city. I was like, there's a store of his favorite clothing. I'm going to get him some stuff. And there's a store right here. Which made it really convenient to just make sure I got exactly what I needed. I don't know how this has anything to do with Margaret. No, because we were talking about, no, we were talking about lenses, you know, and we were talking about witnessing.

Oh, yeah. And I do think that. So now we have an objective reality of the conversation we had because we are recording. and we can take it to people who can help us decipher who's not necessarily right or wrong, but, you know, where the communication can be strengthened. But let's get back to Margaret. You know, there was not enough time, you know, to talk about all the things I wanted to talk about with her. You know, she mentioned, not in passing, but she mentioned she's a survivor of sexual abuse, assault and trauma from her childhood.

And, you know, I also think that's for her to say, like, think how long it took for her, you know, to get to the place where she's at now. You know, it's just like it kind of, it kind of freaked me out a little bit. Like, everybody's just on that journey. And even if you didn't have trauma, right? We're all just like on this journey from whatever we came from to wherever we're trying to get to. And yes, some people get to whatever that place is quicker, faster, easier. you know, when I I meet people who have like

very easy first marriages and they're married forever and like everything and of course there's problems and stuff but I'm always like oh that wasn't my path that wasn't my story or you know and people might look at me and say like oh she had success as an actor early and then her career was set like we're all just like on that journey

and just to think also that you know Margaret is she's a grown woman who still you know for 30 years had an addiction you know, that was also able to be kind of hidden, you know, like in public view. And just to think of where she's landed with her sobriety and just how hard that work is that she's done. I think about that image of the sleeve being too tight and her just like moving the arm and trying to escape. And for me, there's a visceral tension there of the things that are just not right with us.

that were so many of us in these situations and we don't feel okay. And also there's not one solution. You know, if there was, we'd all be doing it. We would have figured it out. Meaning you can't just say like throw Zoloft at that problem, which is kind of what a lot of the 80s and 90s were like. It was like, oh, someone's reporting they're not happy. Here.

Like every doctor was like, here, take this. And then for some people it worked. And for other people, it made them worse. And for another portion of people, it was like, this does nothing, I don't trust medication. And that's the end of that story, right? And then for some people, like, get into therapy. But that only works if you work it. Same thing with 12-step programs. That's why there's that slogan. Works if you work it. But where we got to in that conversation was a lot of people don't even know what they want. At the end of her story, she was like, oh, she said that's

part of the dissociation is like not even knowing. Oh, I've been there. And I actually think that there are many ways in which today's society that's harder to know what you want. Because you're sold all these visions for what your life should be. There's also, there's too many choices. There's a lot of choices. Everyone's told they can do anything. Which is also not true. But like you scroll on Instagram, you're like, my life will be super happy if I live in a van.

I have not scrolled on Instagram. No, I had to stop because yes. Everything, everything I found a way, and maybe this is just my same. I found a way to make everything look better, meaning than what I'm experiencing. Well, this is, and so people don't have any ability to connect in. Even if it wasn't good, I was like, but she has, but her hair is better. Do you know what I mean? Like, I, that's sick.

You're like, oh, my relationship will be perfect if I'm dating someone like, that looks like like that. Totally. Those two people look really good. Right. Or I'll be really happy when I go on that beach vacation and I want to like live a life on the beach. We'd like to think we're not that impressionable, but we totally are.

We totally are. What is difficult is that it disconnects us from the process of figuring out actually what makes me happy. Maybe it is beach. Maybe I need to be by the beach and that's what will really make me happy. But you won't understand that by looking at pictures of it versus going in experiencing it firsthand. I mean, you know, as Byron Katie told us, looking outside of yourself for anything is destined to make you unhappy. Like, how about that, folks? How about that?

I mean, I don't even know what to do with that because it eliminates the majority of the way we spend our time. It eliminates the majority of the decisions we make. I mean, honestly. We look for external validation. Which shoes should I get? Totally. We look for magazines of what I should wear. Hondo.

We don't even think about what's comfortable. What do I feel good in? We just think about, oh, how is this outfit going to look? Well, and it's funny because I've run into this, I've run into this a lot when I talk to people who were like looking to buy a house. And, you know, I don't know if it's just, if it's just my personality or if it's the way I was raised. You know, I, I grew up in, in a crummy rental till I was 15 and my brother was 19. And it was, you know, with all due respect to our landlord, Mr. Hoffman, it was not a, it was a crummy, it was crummy, just a practically speaking in terms of

like things didn't work and like things caused injury. And like, we had to hold the windows up with like a piece of wood. Conscientious landlord. He was not, whatever. He had his own Mishigas. But so did we. So for me, I have very, and I don't, maybe this isn't, I'm sure somebody could grow up like me and have a completely different perspective. Maybe my brother has a totally different perspective. I don't really care about where I live. And by that I mean, you could take me to almost any house and I will find a way. If you told me I had to live in that house, I would make it work. I'm just saying, like in terms of like aesthetics or like you know I could really make and I know you can and I talk to you about this I'm like well what about the light what about the direction what about the noise oh god no I don't

and I and again it may just be me but it's very interesting because then there are certain things that I'm excessively persnickety about like what why don't you tell people what I'm excessively persnickety about I don't know I mean you're you don't like anything being late I almost lost my mind when that premiere I went to start. I mean, I, oh, if something is scheduled at a certain time, it better start on time. I was afraid I would have to wait in the lobby. I could not be contained in that chair, but that's a different story. But we're just making great content of just the two of us talking, I guess.

Or maybe I think it's great and it's not. What else are you? Well, what I was saying is that it's not like I'm an anything goes person. You know, I'm not. I like things on time. I like things in a certain amount of order. I don't like spontaneity. I don't love chaos.

So it's not like I'm like an anything goes person, but when it comes to like a home and things like that, in terms of decision making, that's not a place that I have conflict. No, I don't think about those things. When I met you, your towels didn't absorb any water. We realized that the eczema on my face that I've been having of late has been caused by, I use rewashable makeup remover pads, of course. they are so old that they are basically like pumice.

And I wasn't even processing that I mean, this is, I need to tell my somatic therapist about this. I've basically been scraping my face. You look so disgusted. I've been scraping my face. It's been painful because they've been washed for years. They're not soft anymore. The look on my face is because like the cost. The cost of replacing those.

I had an... Here's the sickest part, Jonathan Cohen. I had a brand new pack. That's just sitting waiting. That is sitting... It's not a cost thing. In my very well-organized sink, you know, shelving. And you're just saving them for a rainy day.

I opened them. But this is... I went to the doctor. I have consulted with two different makeup artists who are aestheticians. And finally, Sasha, my prime... gal was like, are those the ones you've been using for years? Yes. She's like, that's damaging your skin. I mean, I have very sensitive skin. I mean, this is a part of your job. You have to be on television. Your face is. I'm literally scraping my, and not even think. It's a work asset.

I just like, I just put on the Ozark and start rubbing my face, you know, to remove the makeup. I mean, now we have a problem. I am not allowed to do two things at once ever again. The doing the two things at once ties back to Margaret because she was talking about mortar and pestling and this notion of making life a meditation. Love that. Is literally slowing down when you have the type of somatic trauma that she talks about when your nervous system is on high alert and she talks about only being able to relax in horror movies because she knows that the scary thing is coming instead of having to imagine what the scary thing is about to be. The only way to really address that is to slow down to the point where you're stopping the cycle of reactivity. Is it mindfulness? It is.

Like, it's slowing down to cook, to garden, those things. It's being really present in whatever activity that you're doing. And like if you're chopping, it's noticing the chop. It's feeling the food. It's seeing how the knife is cutting. You have to have time for that. Yes. And it's what's slow and time.

Yeah. well this took a turn or seven from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have we'll see you next time it's my and biolix breakdown she's gonna break it down for you she's got a neuroscience PhD

or two one fiction one and now she's gonna break down