Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Mayim & Jonathan React to: Marc Maron

Episode Date: April 6, 2023

Mayim and Jonathan react to our recent episode with Marc Maron! They reflect on Maron’s vulnerability as he shared how his relationship with his parents set a daunting standard for what his future relationships would look like, how he turned to music and drugs to cope, and the origins of his anger. They also consider Maron’s introspection behind his podcast microphone and how he used it to recreate himself, what happens when we’re denied a fundamental sense of self, and the benefits of being raw and open about grief. Mayim and Jonathan discuss why anger can be so difficult to metabolize, attachment style theory and how it affects relationships, and how discussing difficult topics is a trainable skill. They break down the benefits of humor, including using comedy to transmute pain and as a form of belonging. Check out our full episode with Marc Maron here: https://mayim.simplecast.com/episodes/marc-maron-humor-gave-relief-from-grief BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When we first started to know each other, if there's a great joke, you don't leave it on the table. Does comedy come from pain? And I am not a comedy philosopher, but what I do know is that using comedy to transmute pain, the notion that we either laugh or we cry, I totally believe in. And so areas where you're like, that's an inappropriate joke, I'm not saying it is because I would otherwise cry, but I do believe it's in a transmute-mution. Is that the word? No.

What is that word? It transmutes. I don't think you can. To transmute. Yeah. Intense emotion and bring levity to it. I think we need levity. If we're not having fun, why bother them?

Okay. Here's the thing. I agree with you. You don't like fun. No. I agree with you. But? But is it also possible?

When the rhythm of a conversation or an emotional movement is happening that you simply cannot resist saying the thing in your head, much like a 14-year-old child. And you can't gauge. And there's a little bit of, there's a little bit of spectrum in here

sometimes, I think, for you. Because I often think, like, can you not read the... Like, if I'm already crying about something. That's a great time not to poke fun at me. Bei Alex breakdown, she's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. Net credit is here to say yes, because you're more than a credit score.

Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by net credit or lending partner banks and service by net credit. Application subject to review and approval. Learn more at netcredit.com slash partners. Net credit to the people. Amazon Pharmacy presents painful thoughts. I read somewhere that the average Americans spends 13 hours a year waiting in pharmacies for prescriptions. Clearly, I am above average. I thought being above average would feel better.

Maybe I'll read some greeting cards. Next time you use Amazon Pharmacy. We deliver. And here's to being anything but average. Amazon Pharmacy. Health care just got less painful. Hi, I'm Imbialic. I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to our Thursday breakdown. Tuesday got so full.

Tuesday got so full. Jonathan, the reason that we have come here today is that we released an episode with Mark Merritt a few weeks ago. I remember. It was a powerful episode. He had a macaroon on camera. You stuffed him with food from the second he walked in the door, even though he told us that he has eating stuff.

I thought that meant he was hungry. Jonathan, we looked at Mark. So Mark Marin, for those of you who are not aware, Mark Maron is sort of our godfather of podcasting. He began his podcast in 2009, and he has 55 million listeners on average every year. His podcast is WTF with Mark Maron. We read his book.

Attempting normal. Attempting normal. And I've seen Mark do comedy at comedy stores, mainly where I've seen him. I never thought that he would come and talk to us, but he did. and he opened up a lot more than I expected. Sometimes with comedians, like, they're so, you know,

they like, tell it all on stage, but then when they get off stage, no, he's a person who likes to talk all the time about all the things. When he talked about sort of why and how he started podcasting, I asked him about kind of the vulnerability that he exhibits

and the way that he changed. and the way that he chooses to be so open about all of his stuff, in particular about his family, the stuff that he spoke about about his parents, like he pulls no punches, and this shocked me. Tell us what he said about his parents. The first thing I want to say is that the fact that he said all of the things that he said about his parents already blew my mind.

Like, the fact that he was just like, this is what they did and it fucked me up. Like, that shocked me. He calls them narcissists. He said that his father was, was a very, very rough narcissist. His mom, he talks in the book also, his mom, he said, was an expert at anorexia. And it sounds like, you know, they functioned in a very dysfunctional way. But one of the things that he talked about was, you know, he turned to music. He turned to drugs.

He turned to all of these things to sort of feel a sense of belonging. And I was struck because you've shared a lot and I've shared a lot about our teen years, which teen years are difficult. Like, teen years are rough. They're hard. There's, there's hard things about everybody's, you know, life that makes teen years hard. But there was something in particular about this notion of kind of feeling like you don't have structure or boundaries. And I wonder, Jonathan, like, did anything come up for you in terms of, you know, hearing someone talk about that who also, like, you know, has kind of bumped along in life by his own admission. Like, can't. really have relationship, like doesn't really feel like he's successful at relationships.

He really puts it on that kind of lack of structure early on. It's interesting that you say he put it on the lack of structure. He actually didn't connect it to that particularly. He talks about his childhood, but you went and sort of did a attachment theory orientation to like, oh, you know, the basic core need of a child is to, you know, the basic core need of a child is be attached and have the scaffolding, I think you may have used or structure of the parents being there for you. And when you don't have that, then you're constantly concerned in relationships as things

get closer that it's going to bump up against that wound. And so you then lash out because it's basically, you know, explain a little bit more about attachment theory disorder. Well, there's different styles of attachment. And they, you know, they form from a combination of genetic. predisposition, you know, babies do have temperament, and also, you know, early experiences. You know, often I hate to say it, but often that first year is a big one. When you have parents who use you as an object of their needs and don't meet your needs

and you feel uncomfortable around them, but you're still a child and you want to have a relationship and you have basic needs that are not getting met, then as you become an adult and you're in adult grown-up relationships, as you get that closeness, as you get love in romantic situations, those wounds are going to spike. And then you don't know that they're spiking. And so what you think is this person is horrible. Right.

Or I feel so uncomfortable. Or I'm crawling out of my skin. And so he talks about how he like makes things unbearable. for anyone who loves them. And as it becomes more and more unbearable, he's pushing them, pushing them, pushing them away. It's like almost replaying that parental role to say, are you going to love me enough to overcome whatever wound I have?

And then as soon as they pull away, he's like, no, I need this person so badly. And so he's caught in a cycle, but he didn't attach that to his upbringing. He said, oh, I'm fucked up or I'm messed up, but he didn't say, oh, it's because of this attachment disorder. So it's like either, you sort of phrased it for him in a different way than he had. Well, I think, well, what also struck me about Mark is he has, you know, and in his book, I mean,

in this book in particular, attempting normal, he talks about his attempts to like have a relationship, like be a normal person. But he said that like he didn't even realize how big of an asshole he was. Like he was just operating on this automatic pilot and fueled by a lot of drugs. And there's different kinds of drugs. the drugs that he chose to use were drugs that can make for some volatility. Well, he's always had a level of anger. We talked about where did that anger start and does he remember being angry?

And that anger is very difficult to metabolize in a relationship. Like, where does that anger go when you're supposed to be soft and vulnerable and caring and connecting? Well, I think that's what he was saying also is that, I mean, this was kind of his, he said having needy, selfish, detached parents deny you a fight. fundamental sense of self. Like, that's a tremendous statement, especially, I mean, you know, he's almost 60, right? I mean, to his own, by his own admission. Yeah, he's a 59-year-old band at time of recording. Right. And one of the first things that he said when we were talking about sort of like how he got to be the way he was, he spit it right out. He said,

I saw porn too young. He did say that. And like, I don't think I've ever heard anybody say that. I mean, obviously, I've heard people talk about seeing porn too young, but, like, it was literally like, hey, what was going on for you? What was your, you know, that sounded very significant. And, you know, this is another thing along with many aspects of childhood. And, you know, as a parent, you wonder, like, what am I doing that's going to fuck up my children irreparably? Like, if I shouted, because they didn't take the litter out, one too many times, like, is that going to do something? But he was very, I'm sure there's more there.

But that was very interesting to me because he said it set a daunting standard, meaning an expectation for, you know, what interactions should look like, what power dynamics are at play, you know, between, you know, men and women in particular. I thought that was super interesting. And, yeah, there's a really amazing part of this book where he basically said, like, he would treat someone so horrible. but that was like almost his way of showing love. And when they would finally wake up and be like, this is not working for me, he'd be like, I can't live without you. Which is like so many of us know that guy or that gal.

He's also very, very hard on, quote, crazy people, crazy women. And he does this in his stand-up as well. But, you know, he mentioned that he dated someone who had borderline personality disorder. And he talked about kind of what, you know, what a trip that was to try and kind of constantly be policing. that person. But so much of his life, as much as he really does get away from a lot of the dynamics of his parents, so much of it, you know, hits that wound, right? Of, you know, where are your needs

too much? Where are my needs too much? Um, he also spoke about how comedy for him and his podcasting, too, because in his podcasting, the first usually eight to 15 minutes of every show is a stream of consciousness about what's going on for him. And for some people who are like, well, okay, so what? Sitting down and recording in an articulate fashion, eight to 12, 15 minutes on any topic is not only difficult, but to do it continuously for a thousand plus episodes. It's just, it's his, but I think it's much more his existence. Like, for us, for me, I'm still like, what do we say?

What do we talk about? Like I think... But this is what I'm saying. Hold on. He's mastered not giving a shit. But so that's not what I think it is. There is an element to that. You have to not care because you have to be so open and vulnerable and he's sharing it with

this such a large audience. You also have to be like, what is actually going on for me? Where I'm going with this is the ability to have that introspection and narrate it. Most of us are just going through life. Right. Feeling it. Feeling it. And I'm not really sure what it means.

and then we try to go to therapy or somewhere else and articulate like, oh, I feel this. But for him to put an entire narrative around it and what he said, and this is what really struck me, was that he did that as a way of recreating himself. He was so lost. He was so unsure of who he was that stand up and storytelling and building this narrative over and over and over again

in its new iterations. It was his new self. He's actually creating himself in every moment and having his art as an expression of how he's creating himself, I find fascinating. And speaks directly to him saying that he felt denied a fundamental sense of self, you know, as a child because of, you know, his parents. What's also interesting in his special from Bleak to Dark,

which is now out on HBO Max, he chooses to be vulnerable. I mean, so vulnerable. Like, vulnerable is not even the word. He chooses to walk us through what it was like to lose. the person he was in love with, his partner, suddenly and during COVID. Very suddenly. Very suddenly unexpected.

I mean, you can't even put words to it. But when I asked kind of like why, I thought his answer was very interesting. He said it was inevitable. Like the only place that he could want to take that was where he took it. He took it to his art. He took it to his writing.

and he wanted to perform it. And he did. He talked about how humor relieved grief, which is like, you love humor. This is a whole topic. You love it. Okay, we're going to circle back to that. Keep going.

He talked about how humor, you know, helped his grief and how he couldn't imagine. Like, he went behind the mic right after she died. And he said... And re-released the episode that he had recorded with her previously. Right. And I couldn't, I couldn't wrap my head around. I totally get that he felt comforted. But that's the level of comfort that he has with the microphone, you know, and with that audience that he could go in a state of tremendous acute grief. And you don't have to think

about it. You don't have to plan it out. Like the special, you get to hear kind of the, the Mark Marin crafted way of presenting it. Here's why I respect that so much because what you're witnessing is someone in a process. They're not, he's not packaging this. Right. It's not like, oh, I have some idea. I'm going to work on it. Then I'm going to present it.

Then I'm hoping to get feedback. Like, this is like his persona, who he is and he's working that out in real time. There was something that he also said when we talked about, you know, him kind of returning to the world. you know, after being in such acute grief. And I believe the quote was, where else would I go? Yeah. He's like, if not that, then I'm just sort of sitting at home, wallowing in it. He created a real community.

I mean, he's created a community and identity for himself with his pod. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water. There's no real data. There's no game plan. This has happened to me many, many times,

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But, um, I, I really found it interesting how such a sort of self-professed, you know, misanthrope feels so connected and wanted to be raw and wanted to be open. with his people. Like, I thought that was very sweet how much it means to him that he has this community to go to. And that when Lynn passed, like, of course that's where he went. I thought that was very interesting. He's, he really is.

He's a lovable curmudgeon, you know? That's the perfect title for him, lovable curmudgeon. Let's talk. Net credit is here to say yes. Because you're more than a credit score. Apply in minutes and get a decision as soon as the same day. Loans offered by net credit or lending partner banks at service. Net Credit application subject to review and approval.

Learn more at netcredit.com slash partners. Net credit. Credit to the people. Amazon Pharmacy presents painful thoughts. I read somewhere that the average Americans spends 13 hours a year waiting in pharmacies for prescriptions. Clearly, I am above average. I thought being above average would feel better. Maybe I'll read some greeting cards.

Next time use Amazon Pharmacy. We deliver. And here's to being anything but average. Amazon Pharmacy. Healthcare just got less painful. About comedy when it's appropriate and when it isn't. Let me tell people a little bit about Jonathan. A lot of the episodes that you hear...

All my jokes are cut out. We have to cut out a lot of his jokes. That's not true. That's not actually true. You were very fun. First of all, Jonathan is... hilarious. Let's have an internet pull.

Jonathan's hilarious, but he uses his humor like a weapon. And when any emotion gets too close or too real, he has to make a joke. Is that true? Often in this podcast, I raise my finger, if you're only listening, I put my hand up. One finger in the air and say, I object. object to the categorization. First of all, when we first started to know each other, we had an agreement, which I think got a little taken out of context.

The agreement was if there's a great joke, you don't leave it on the table. Right, but that's completely subjective. Very, very subjective, it turns out. And it turns out that a great joke can be interpreted differently by different people. Well, I think one of the things about your sense of humor is you're very playful. And you like to insert playfulness into very, not just serious moments, but moments where you have to leave a tender moment alone, as Billy Joel said. It also turns out.

So happens. So happens that someone who might otherwise really enjoy a specific joke. Is often in a bad mood and doesn't want to hear your jokes. Might not enjoy the jokes. that joke if they're not in the right frame of mind. And later, if they heard that joke again, would be like, you're right, that is funny. Are you proposing that we do outtakes of all the things that I tell about that I roll my eyes about and say, like, Valerie, can you please make it not? Yeah. So Mark Maren, the other thing about him, if you've listened to WGF, is he's a philosopher of comedy.

He wants to know what makes things funny. He wants to know where comedy comes from. an analysis. This ties back to does comedy come from pain? And I am not a comedy philosopher, but what I do know is that using comedy to transmute pain, the notion that we either laugh or we cry,

I totally believe in. And so areas where you're like, that's an inappropriate joke, I'm not saying it is because I would otherwise cry, but I do believe it's in a transmutation. Is that? Is that the word? No.

No. What is that word? It transmutes. I don't think you can. To transmute. Yeah. Intense emotion and bring levity to it. I think we need levity.

If we're not having fun, why bother? Okay. Here's the thing. I agree with you. You don't like fun. No. I agree with you. But.

But is it also possible? When the rhythm of a conversation or an emotional movement is happening, that you simply cannot resist saying the thing in your head, much like a 14-year-old child. And you can't gauge. And there's a little bit of, there's a little bit of spectrum in here sometimes, I think, for you. Because I often think, like, can you not read the...

Like, if I'm already crying about something, that's a great time not to poke fun at me. But I'm curious, this is what I want to ask you, because this is actually something I'm very curious about. What's your mom's sense of humor like? That's a good question. I don't see my mom as all that funny. I'm sorry, mom. She's very, very intelligent, lovely, talented.

Good storyteller, loves literature, great writer. I don't see her as a humorist, although she understands what's funny. And I say that because my sister, God love her, she doesn't understand jokes. Sometimes your sister will say things to me like, I'm not understanding what you're saying, Trout. I'm like, oh, that's too much of a joke. Like we tease her a little bit because when she was like 12, 13, 15 years old, we would have to explain the comic section of the newspaper. We still got newspapers back then. And my dad would be reading that at breakfast and he would pass us the comics.

and my sister would not understand them. Okay. Tell us about your dad's sense of humor. My dad is very funny. My grandfather was very funny. Okay. But your dad is very selectively funny. Yeah, it's true. He's selectively funny.

Like you could meet him and not know that he's funny. Yeah, that's true. And I feel like there's a way that you learned to use humor maybe because of your upbringing that made it so that this is an intervention. Okay. Come on. This sounds like an analysis. Let's go there. How did I use humor based on how I grew up?

Everyone was so serious. I needed to lighten it up a little bit. Jonathan, translated as gift from God, needed to bring some levity. You're also the baby of the family. Yeah. You're the baby. I got there.

Everyone was so, you know, they were so serious. I was going to be funny. even as a detriment to myself. Were you funny in school? Were you like a jokester? No. I was quiet in school, I think. Yeah, no, I wasn't really.

I don't remember being funny. Actually, it's funny because I don't remember being funny as a kid so much. I would tease my brother a lot who was always in a bad mood, but that would sort of just antagonize him and then I would have violence. Thrust upon you? Thrust upon me, exactly. No, I don't think. I don't know that.

But you have an MFA in writing in a particular, screen, like you're funny as a writer. Yeah, I'm hilarious. Some of my favorite parts of this podcast are when we get to speak to a comedian and every now and again. I mean, I have a moment where Seth Throgan laughs at something I've said.

I don't remember what. I got Mark a couple times. And it's different when you make a funny person laugh because they go like this. They give you a nod that you're like, oh, okay, I recognize that you have, you know, obviously not their skill. not the talent, but it's like, oh, you can throw something into the ring.

As a neuroscientist, I'm also fascinated about humor and where humor lives in the brain. There are certain regions of the brain if lesioned or injured, you will get inappropriate laughter is one of the features of certain syndromes and of certain injuries. Are you suggesting they have brain lesions? No. But see, that's a great example of I was. Like telling a narrative, like, especially like something scientific. And I don't know if like your brain is like too much science.

But I was literally like I was trying to weave something. And what that joke did is it disrupted like just the rhythm of human speech. So anyway, that being said, I'm fascinated, you know, where all of this lives in the brain. Because humor and comedy as I think, as I think Mark really showed us, it is, it is not just telling jokes. You know, it is not just being able to find things that are funny. It's being able to be vulnerable with yourself enough to know where others can join in your reverie. Yes. And it's also about any form of belonging.

Because if you hear comics and comedians who are often outsiders, if you make someone laugh, that means they're not going to hit you. And if you make someone laugh, it means that, A, they might want you around and they might accept you. And I mean, for me, I remember a lot of like trying to cheer my brother up who was a very moody teenager and who struggled and felt pressures at school. And a lot of my behavior was oriented around trying to make him less angry or sometimes the anger would come out at me and then he was less angry or trying to cheer him up or

just trying to engage and definitely there's an element of like oh if I can make someone laugh then uh they probably feel a little lighter and if they feel a little lighter I don't have a conscious connection to this but it's a lack of threat it's a lack of threat and it's also like oh if they feel a little lighter then that's sort of a better state to be in were you funny as a kid yes when did you discover that you were funny i remember making people laugh like as young as i can remember. I would do shows with my brother. We would do like shows for my parents and, you know, guests and stuff. I mean, we have pictures. I, we can actually pull, I have a picture. I keep it at Jeopardy. Yeah, I have a little cane and a little hat. And I wasn't like a hammy kid,

but, you know, it was probably like a little Warsh Belt comedy special. The first time I remember making other kids laugh, I would do impressions of kids, not mean-spirited impressions because I was a very, at least I remember myself as like a kid who was always befriending the kids in the special ed class and defending them when kids would tease them and beat them up and throw things at them. And, you know, I was a very emotional and like feeling child. But I was a really good mimic. And that made other kids laugh because I would mimic kids' voices or, yeah, one of my first roles was a, you know, a play, Ms. Julie Drake was my drama teacher. And it was called like the Christmas Pig. And it was like a kind of a very broad, you know, comedy and I had to put on like a southern accent. I was just in long johns. Like, you know, like oatmeal colored long johns with a bandana and high top converse and like my hair and

pigtails or something. But I remember doing accents. And I don't know. I just like, I watched a lot of sitcoms as a kid, you know? I was like raised on television. Like television was my third parent. Okay. Quick interjection here because this relates. I also watched a lot of television growing up. But Canadian television was a lot of large. No, we had American television. We did watch hockey, but I watched a lot of sitcom. And when you say, oh, you say a joke that interrupts the natural form of speech, the nature of sitcom structure is set up, set up punchline. And it just occurred to me right now. Like vulnerable narrative punchline.

That's what I'm saying. Why are you skipping set up, setup? But there is the like jokes per page. nature of television, and I do wonder if that impacted my timing and sensibility. I think you don't. If I had to do an analysis of why sometimes I think your comedy is misplaced, I say this lovingly, there's a rhythm that, you know, I think people who are trained actors have to have. I don't know that you have that rhythm all the time. So sometimes like, If something's not ready for a punchline and you stick it in there, it can feel like out of order.

Like a little chaotic. That's what it kind of feels like is like, I'm not ready for your joke yet. That would be the title of my poem about you. I'm not ready for your joke yet, a poem about Jonathan Cohen. Or I'm not ready for your joke yet. I'm currently crying. Both of my parents were quite funny. and my father actually was an actor

like he did plays and stuff when he was a kid and I've seen pictures of my father of Blessed Memory and he was very hammy he had a really great body language and like there's pictures of him in Finian's Rainbow and he's you know just like a little elf and my mom also my mom was a beautiful singer so my mom was a very like you know

a talented seamstress and you know she was very artistic but she was funny and my mom and I In my family, there's a branch of my family. We laugh literally until the laugh becomes silent, and then tears come. And most of the women in my family on the Winkleman side, it seems to be a Winkleman trait, and a couple of the males as well.

It's a very specific laugh that we get to, and then it's just silent, and your body is just, like, racked with laughter. But my mom and I, I mean, we would laugh so hard. Like when I was a teenager, I had great times with my mom like that. first time I saw you with sort of your extended family was at Fred's Bar Mitzvah and your cousin Linda. My aunt Linda.

Yeah, sorry. My aunt Linda. Your aunt Linda. You had her going. You were just holding court and it was actually a- funny in my family. And it was a side of you that you just like kept- Oh, my cousin Jacob.

My cousin Jacob is 10 years younger than me. And so, you know, when he was born, I was 10. And he was like, oh, my gosh, we have a baby, you know. And, you know, they lived in San Jose. They lived six hours for me. But as Jacob got older, he was my best audience. Because my next closest cousin was six years younger than me. And she was kind of like my sister.

Like, we were like sisters. But this was like, I had an audience. And it was my favorite thing was to make Jacob laugh. And I would just, I would do impressions of my professors and my teacher. And it was so joyous to make, especially a kid and a teenager. It is so much fun to make them laugh, but to keep it. going. It's... So here's my question for you.

You're a comedic actor, not a comedian. Right? Why? Why? Say more. I don't know what your distinction is. You've been on television. You have amazing comedic timing. Oh. You have been in comedy

for decades. Uh-huh. But a comedian to me is someone who stands up on stage. Oh, so I think of like Lucille Ball as a comedian, meaning it's a whatever. It's a nomenclature, distinction. But yeah, I am an actor, but yeah, I do consider myself a comedian, but you're right. I'm not a stand-up comedian. Right. Right. Okay. So the difference is in stand-up versus... Yeah. Also, you are a writer. You wrote a screenplay. You've written books. So you have all the skill sets.

No. Yeah, here we go. No. Yeah. Yeah. Just bear with me. That's what I've been doing for three years. You've been a performer as a kid. You all. You actually can improv amazingly because I've seen you with your family where you're just like... That's not improv. You're holding court. You're quick-witted. It's not long-form improv, which we've discussed in other episodes if you haven't heard those. However, you have never done stand-up comedy.

Correct. No. I think there's something in there that could take all of those skills. I should workshop with Mark Marin. Mark, I know you're not listening to this. But we'll start an internet craze. Maim needs a mentor. Stand up mentor.

Jonathan, I want to thank you for encouraging us to have Mark Maren on the podcast. I'm very glad that he came and talked with us. And it was fascinating in and of itself. If you haven't heard, obviously, the episode. Go back to Tuesday. Please go back to Tuesday. Listen to it. Go back to the Tuesday when you can listen to it.

But also it brought up so many interesting things. And also, I was astoundingly. at his comfort, you know, with speaking about such vulnerable things. I find it very inspiring and he's a complicated guy. And as he talks about in his book, he's got quite a history. And I just, I'm really grateful that he has kind of shared so much of himself with his podcast audience and that he shared it with ours. I totally agree with you. And the one additional takeaway that I got was that speaking about these difficult topics is actually a trainable skill.

You could tell it sometimes in the episode that he was more emotional than others, but he was able to hold that emotion and where some people kind of shut down when they reach that level of emotionality, when the sort of bottom floor rises a little bit and the pressure gets a little bit more. He was able to just channel that into continually being articulate and thoughtful and funny about it and passionate. And, you know, I think for myself, how to just keep that as a skill to practice being able to just continue to be open and vulnerable, even in the face of intense emotion. So I'm

inspired. So he even says, if you're vulnerable sharing your experience with mental and emotional problems, and I would even say experiences here, it's going to be helpful in and of itself. And that's why we're here to share that. There's a lot of ways to process. And I think that's what, I think for me, the episode with Mark Maron really showed me, there's a lot of ways to get through your stuff. And we are happy to be on the journey with all of you. And thank you so much for listening to our little Thursday breakdown. With

tenderness and a little comedy. From our Thursday breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and be all next breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break. Summertime's rolling. It's time to feel

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