Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Melissa Bernstein: Achievement Anchoring & The Logic of Lying

Episode Date: July 13, 2021

Melissa Bernstein, author, entrepreneur, and Co-Founder of the successful toy company Melissa & Doug, breaks down her existential journey through birthing art from divergent qualities. She discusses her disassociation from dark feelings and how her imagination allowed her to channel that sense of despair into creativity. Mayim and Melissa bond over being unable to relate to mainstream culture and how perfectionism can sometimes feel like a drug. They examine the science behind overexcitabilities, reasons why we lie, and how to accept and move through rejection. Melissa opens up about how her need for control led to a severe eating disorder at the age of 11 and how she found recovery through her relationship with her now husband. After years of self-depletion, Melissa reveals how logotherapy and studying philosophy guided her through her mental health journey. Mayim reminisces about her time hanging out with fellow misfits at Venice Beach, and ends the episode with advice for teachers on dealing with anxious students in the latest installment of Ask Mayim Anything. Melissa & Doug Website: https://www.melissaanddoug.com/ Melissa Bernstein's Book: https://www.lifelines.com/shop-book BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You know, when I met Doug, I was in the midst of a severe eating disorder. We'd get these great meals, and he would look at me like a hawk, and he would sit there and he'd say, finish your meal. But I would finish my meal. And then I would, of course, go home and want to punish myself. But I started to see him more and more and more. He just wouldn't go away. He wouldn't go away just like now.

There he is again. Just when you thought he had gone away. Just when you thought he was gone. That's the sign of a good relationship. It's a sign of a great relationship. Never leave you alone. It's Myambialic's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you.

Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. Going to break it down. Hi, I'm Myambiolic and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. This is also the place where we break down the things that make us break down. We have a very exciting show today because it's, So exciting, I thought maybe I shouldn't show up.

I was like, maybe Jonathan should do this alone. Who's Jonathan? I'd like to introduce Jonathan. Jonathan is my lifeline. Jonathan Cohen. Welcome. Hello, ma'am. Are you ready to call a friend?

Lifeline? No? I didn't think about that. I was thinking about the book that we're going to talk about today, which is called Lifelines, written by Melissa Bernstein, of the toy company, Melissa and Doug, which is how big is the company? I don't hold numbers. What's the number she says?

It's a $500 million company. I don't know what that means. Does that mean that's how much money they make? That means they sell a lot of toys. They sell a lot of toys. So we're going to be talking to Melissa Bernstein. She and her husband Doug founded Melissa and Doug. If you don't know who they are, you're not a parent.

Because I don't think there's a parent who doesn't know Melissa and Doug toys. Not everyone requires their child to have plastic-free, battery-free toys. that are fully wood and sustained from like eco elves in the mountains somewhere on the other side of the world. The reason that every parent, even if they're not a Waldorf hippie like me and you, the reason people know Melissa and Doug is because it's the wooden toys at every single store. Like name a store. Toys R Us. Walmart. Coles Target. Like any store you go to, there's always that sad little section that only people like me. go to. Where all the other kids, if you take your kids to the toy store, they like, you bring them

to that section, they're like, really? This is what I have to play with. But when you get them home, it frees their creativity in a way that is far superior than the blinking lights. Whatever. I mean, my children literally will be in therapy because I only bought them wooden toys. And that's fine, because we get to speak to Melissa and Doug today. So we're going to be speaking to Melissa Bernstein. Okay, a little small story, my son, he had the kitchen set. Of course he did. And His favorite thing to do was take all the screws out of the kitchen set. And every single day, multiple times a day, I would have to put this kitchen set back together. And he would just take it apart.

But endless, endless hours of fun. New, do you know why you had to keep putting it together again? Because you taught him that you would put it together once. First time my kid did that, it was out in the driveway. Got taken away the next day. I'm just kidding. It's like when they throw food on the floor. If you pick it up, they're going to throw it again because it's fun to watch you bend over.

He was a little engineer. I wanted to encourage that. But what I ended up doing is I ended up supergluing the screws into the, so he couldn't do that anymore. And instead, what he did is he just rearranged the whole furniture. And he like, he built little sets for himself. So wait, hold on. Very creative. Hippie-dippy Jonathan Cohen with his wooden toys used the most toxic substance known to humanity, superglue.

I should clarify, I didn't super glue it. What I did is I took a glue gun. and I covered the screw so that he couldn't get his screwdriver in. But you didn't want to limit his creativity. So what you know what he ended up doing? He ended up taking the doors of our kitchen cabinets off, which is actually quite a bit more destructive than just his own kitchen set. Oh, I've seen that photo.

Anyway, we're not just going to talk to Melissa about toys, although I do definitely talk to her about toys. Oh, yeah, there's a whole other angle to this conversation. Melissa Bernstein, along with her husband Doug, is the co-founder of the toy company, Melissa and Doug, which has created over 5,000 children's products and sold billions of dollars of toys. Raised by educators, Melissa and Doug started the business in their garage in 1988. They've been on a mission to provide open-ended, inventive, non-technologically driven playthings for young children. Throughout Melissa's remarkable career, she kept secret her lifelong battle with severe depression and anxiety.

Also, the way that she kept it secret is a must listen. It's a must listen because I don't think we've ever spoken to anyone who literally had a full method for how you hide that. Anyway, she reveals her struggles in Lifelines, her first book, which she wrote to help others who are also suffering, her book heralds the launch of lifelines.com, and online ecosystem she and Doug are underwriting to support those seeking support, guidance,

and community on their mental health journeys. We'll absolutely link to that. Melissa lives in Connecticut with Doug and there's six children. That's so many children. Let's welcome Melissa Bernstein. Break it down. Welcome Melissa Bernstein. This is an episode that I almost felt like I shouldn't show up for because the level of excitement that I have is palpable.

And I think you should know a little bit about me and Jonathan. before we actually start talking to you. So we happen to independently be very holistic folks. And we did not raise children together, but we've known each other for almost the entire time that we've been raising children separately. I raised my kids in the Waldorf style of education. And so you can imagine my first son was born in 2005

and my second son was born in 2008. And you can imagine that, especially back then, everyone thought we were nuts to only want natural fibers for clothing and to not want anything with batteries. I mean, my family thought we were nuts. And my parents are teachers. They are public school teachers and like very progressive, but even still. It was like, you want what?

We can't buy what? So Melissa and Doug was like really the best known and most friendly. experience that, I mean, I think Jonathan can probably say the same. Like, it was the thing that we could direct people to when they were like, well, what are we supposed to do? How are we supposed to love this child if we can't buy them the things that we want? Also, I had children when I was in grad school, had my first son in grad school and my second right after I got my doctorate. We were on a budget. And so we also didn't believe that children needed a lot of things. But the thing, but the thing that we chose to spend money on tended to be things that were high quality that would be durable

and that would stimulate creativity and go along with our hippy-dippy philosophy. So this was back in the day when we used to do these like co-ops where you would trade things with other people that like they didn't need anymore. And there were these like citywide things where everyone just like showed up in a parking lot with their stuff. And I was like on the prowl for Melissa and Doug. Like it was inappropriate. One of my favorite things I literally got, I think it was the barn.

And like we never would have afforded that. We had the barn. I bet you had the barn. Oh, yeah. Fanciness. I got that barn for $5, which I literally had to be like, do I spend it? And I got it in the park, like literally at the park on the grass when everybody was just like, it was like we would have a sale. We're also homeschoolers.

So anyway, it is. He lives. He lives. It's so crazy. Yes, it's true. It's really crazy. And thank you so much for being. That's our introduction.

There is a better half. It's insane. Jonathan... For people listening to the audio, we just got a sneak peek of the Doug. Of the Doug. In Melissa and Doug. Yep. Wasn't a pretty sight, but it's Doug.

Jonathan, do you want to add anything? Like, I mean, I could litter... I kept Melissa and Doug things. they were the toys we kept the longest. After our kids even outgrew them because they still would want, like the pizza, which was, we called it vegan. We had the pizza.

The pizza with the cutter and the mushrooms and we called it vegan pepperoni. And we held on to that even after the wooden stove went away, after all the dishes and little stainless steel forks. Like, we kept that pizza. We kept, I mean, I could

I'll stop. Jonathan, do you want to add me before? Maybe we let Melissa. No, I'm. I'm going to talk to her, but do you want to have anything? I don't think I need to be here. I think this is amazing. We were radical in our time, but to start a company that was that type of different toy, like, I don't know when the company was started.

1988, you didn't do your research, Jonathan. People must have thought you two were absolutely nuts. Oh, yeah. I'm so glad you asked that question. People thought we had lost our minds, mostly my parents. because those were not the days that you up and started a, you know, a company, much less a toy company. And those were the days when you followed a career your entire life. You literally got in a career and just followed it along through the end and gradually progressed up.

You worked until you died is really what you meant. Like you worked yourself into the ground. Can you tell us a little bit about sort of where you come from, you know, what your childhood roughly was like, you know, were your parents creative, were they academic types? How did you kind of, you know, how did you get to 1988 in as much or as little details as you'd like? Oh, gosh. Yeah.

I mean, I definitely felt like I never belonged in this world on this planet, much less in myself. And I think I always felt like an outlier, you know. wherever I was. And from childhood, you know, I spent most of my childhood in my head, whereas others were kind of playing in groups and sort of at the end of the cul-de-sac, playing all the games. You know, I was always kind of on my own watching. Like I was, I was interested in what they were doing, but I was always kind of outside the fray. And really engaging in activities that put me in my imagination. You know, I was always writing,

music. I was writing verses. I was crafting. I was collecting. I was pondering the way the sunlit, like, you know, stream through the leaves. Like it was always about nature. And I think I grew up feeling very different and stigmatized because of that. So I would say it wasn't really a happy time because, you know, I did suffer from this existential despair that made me question life's meaning. and created through it. You know, I always channeled the despair into creativity. It wasn't beautiful, creative things that I could share with others. It was really a lot of dark, dark creativity.

And my parents, and no one really understood me. Yeah, can you tell us a little bit? Because I'm always curious when, you know, when we get to speak to people who, you know, kind of were different from the get-go. Because sometimes you have parents who are different in ways that you're different, but there's kind of something there. Were your parents, I mean, what was your family?

Did you have siblings? Yeah, so I only had one brother, and he actually had special needs. So I was more of a mother to him than that, you know, sibling. And I think my whole life, all I wanted was siblings, like big brothers who would protect me and joke around with me and throw me up and down. And, you know, that treated me like that cute kid's sister. and I actually made up in my head this fictitious family that I wanted to be part of and told people all the time that I had this amazing older brother who, and I believed it. I crafted such a story to, I think, have the family that I always wanted that it became my truth.

And I think, you know, I never felt I could share who I truly was with anyone. And because I was so despondent in my existential crisis, I really repressed and denied and sort of disassociated from feeling those really dark feelings. So no one ever really knew what I was experiencing inside, including myself. I really kept it very even unconscious for myself because I knew if I allowed it to kind of rise, it would threaten to submerge me and I'd suffocate. Mm-hmm. And what did your parents do for a living? I'm just curious. So my mom was a teacher. She taught academically gifted children. And my father was in educational publishing. You've had a lot of struggles, you know, kind of, I don't want to say a diverse set of struggles, you know, as you said, you kind of have this existential, there was an existential despondency

and sort of, you know, looming thing. It did manifest in, you know, you're eating, your body image. Was that something that you remembered from when you were younger? And did you ever get help for those things as a child or it wasn't really talked about? It's a great question. You know, I'm an example of someone who believed that you fight through anything and everything you're feeling. And that became sort of my, I guess you'd call it my badge of honor, this idea that you

don't ever talk about dark things. and you just fight through it and you surmount it no matter what it is. And I think, you know, from the moment I was born, I had this deep despair that truly was like as dark as it gets. And I think the demon in my head, you know, it wanted to do me in. I mean, it was like insistent that you are going down. And I was insistent sort of that part of me that wanted to live would fight it constantly and say, you know, no, I want to, I want to, I want to,

live. I want to, you know, have a good life. And I just, in order to overcome that demon, I had to repress and deny and create this facade that allowed me to go through life in sort of a normal manner. But what I ended up doing, of course, is all the coping mechanisms, all the defense mechanisms and the anchoring to perfection. And that becoming my validation and my facade for my entire life. Wow. And did you ever seek help? Was it ever talked about? The crazy thing is no. I never spoke of it. In fact, if someone would have said to me, even at my lowest weight, you know, my first, I had an eating disorder at age 11, I mean, it manifested in my, my behavior so early because I felt such a sense of powerlessness toward my mortality and toward

the existential despair that would become true with my death, that I had to control anything and everything in order to find some sense of order amidst the chaos. And that's what my verses ended up being too. You know, they ended up being this ordered, rhyming verse that was making sense of the senseless. Okay, and we'll get to that. I have so many things to say about that.

you talk a lot about lying. I'm a recovering chronic exaggerator. And, you know, you talk about some very specific kind of lies that you even had to tell yourself. I will trust you to share what you feel comfortable with. But, you know, obviously as a neuroscientist, I'm very interested in sort of, you know, what we have a predisposition to and then what we're taught either overtly or covertly. So my, for example, on my mom's side in particular, I come from a very kind of Holocaust heavy set of rules and ideas and fears. And my grandparents, you know, may their memory be for a blessing, they were not educated people. They worked in sweatshops. They were immigrants.

They never really mastered the English language. They were raised really with a culture of fear around them. And they raised my mother in a very specific way that my mother found very fear. and my mother was an artist, and like that wasn't allowed. And so, like, very, you know, so those were messages that even though my grandparents were trying to do their best, they were limited. They could not see past, you know, their junior high education. I mean, if we call it that, you know, it was like the shuttles of, you know, Eastern Europe. But I wonder if you have a sense, did that lying come because it was modeled for you or because you were told this is a way to cope?

Or was it simple? And also, was your brother? younger or older? My brother was four years younger. Okay, got it. Okay, because I also didn't know if there was a birth order, you know, switching. But tell me how much you have an understanding of kind of what you feel you were kind of born with, you know, like this is my epigenetics and this is sort of what I came out with. Or did you get those messages, you know, even in the best of intentions from the people around you? You know, I always had this sense. That is such a good question, that my perfectionism was also innate from birth. Because even at age five, my first grade teacher predicted that I would have a big, big problem

with my perfectionism. And she called my parents in for a special meeting and said that Melissa becomes hysterical if she misses anything. And I think what happened is I anchored so intensely to being perfect and having that be my only form of validation, that what started to happen, and I began lying truly at age maybe five, six, any time I fell short of that perfection. Got it. And it became that I couldn't ever, and I lied to myself too. That was the crazy thing. It was, and I started to do, it was like I was a drug addict seeking. the praise and the validation.

And any time I fell short, I would lie. And honestly, think it was fine. Because there were times in my life that I remember even getting older where I would question, like, should I lie? And I was like, it doesn't matter. Perfection, I have to achieve perfection. And anything in the name, it was my drug. And it was like anything in the name of achieving it, I would do.

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that's sometimes sort of just like the environment that we're in, you know? Or like for some people, and this may not be your story. Like if it's perfect, then I don't, I won't upset anything. You know, like if it's perfect, I won't be seen. like I can just disappear because like, okay, she's good. Like, you know, check it off. She's good. Do you feel like that also kind of played into it?

Definitely. I mean, I think the perfectionism was exacerbated by my need to be perfect to maintain the family balance. Got it. You know, and when you have a parent that can get angry very easily, I think you want to make sure that you're not the one to irk that parent. And that was definitely part of my dynamic to be perfect, not upset the apple cart. But then when you're perfect and that still doesn't do it, then you're left even more. Isn't that a major bummer? Yeah.

That's like, well, I can't do any more. And that's, of course, when the powerlessness, that's when you start to control, you know, you're eating. Well, okay. So, and that brings up something that, you know, this absolutely happens. to men, there are men who have this happen, but, but this notion, I think, is especially salient for women in our culture, because there's also, especially if you have any kind of, and I didn't have a special needs sibling, I mean, I wouldn't consider him that. That was a

joke, trying to keep it light. But, you know, I was raised in a house where female attributes, you know, cooking, cleaning, like maintaining, organizing, sewing, fixing, those were qualities that were, I mean, those are very Eastern European, you know, Stettel qualities that I was raised to do and to do well and to do right. And my mother was very good at those things. So like that was a thing. But I think that when that kind of also notion of femaleness, you know, like keep it together, you know, as much as people say like, oh, the men, especially in those days when your parents were probably,

you know, the man was the breadwinner typically. But the women were really the ones kind of keeping it all together. So for women, I think in particular, there's a special pressure on that level of perfection and add to that expectations of appearance, which you talk about a ton. You know, what that outer, you know, you won't know how imperfect I am inside if all you do is look at how amazing I am on the outside. And I think that's especially true for women. It sure is. I mean, I felt that so strongly. And I felt like if I showed any crack in the armor, any chink in the armor, I would be a failure.

So it became like my, again, my, my ax to bear that I would serve. And I became such a bitter martyr because it was like I will serve from an empty well with a smile on my face for my life. And no one will ever know. And I kind of thought that at some point, I would be anointed and like hoisted up on everyone's shoulders and be carried around. I mean like this, you're literally like, that's my story. Because I love that notion like, watch how selfless I can be. Like, and and also, you know, once I had, you know, my first child in particular and I was like a grad student and it was so hard and it was like I breastfed all the time and he didn't eat solids for a year.

And like I was that lady. Like that aspect also of being a parent and being. a woman and be like it was like we were the new feminist guard like with you know like a baby in one arm and like a checkbook in the other like it was this super duper emphasis on like look at how much I'm doing I mean it definitely it's it's identity shaping and also it impacts you know how we raise our children as well which I'll get to but I mean I won't make you like I mean I literally could listen to your life story and I really really would like a full proper memoir next just requesting it but

you meet also this is something that I love about your story so you meet this guy you meet this guy and essentially your there he is again just when you thought he had gone away just when you thought he was gone so you meet this guy and i'm not just a guy all right i take offense at that let me look at him is he just a guy and let me guess i just met this woman okay he's You meet this Bernstein. He's a stunner. Just call him a stunner. You meet this stunner.

And essentially a huge component of what began really a life of recovery, you know, from everything that you had been through came from really this relationship that you started to build. And, you know, I have to say that, I mean, yes, I happen to be a divorced person. I love hearing these stories because it's like you got to have the martyrs. dream. Like you met the guy who like, you know, became part of your story and really allowed you then. It's not that you needed him to do it, but that relationship led to you being able to build enough to then become kind of your own person that you, you know, then could really build a life with, you know, more confidence, less perfection, you know, all these things. So tell us a little bit of

about sort of what it was like to meet someone, you know, where you were at. And what do you think he saw versus what do you think he saw you could be? That's, oh, wow, that's like the best question ever. Uh-oh, here it comes. I'm available for fact-checking. And he will continue to do it, trust me. Oh, I get it. Like, had he not been here, the answer would be entirely different.

So I don't know if that's a good thing or about it. So, you know, when I met Doug, I was 19 years old and I was in the midst of a severe eating disorder. I mean, I weighed 82 pounds and was so frail I could barely walk up a set of stairs. I mean, I was really at, you know, death's door. And I think, you know, although we never talked about it, he really helped save my life then because he saw me and knew something was very wrong. I mean, I didn't look healthy by any means. I mean, my hair was falling out and it was just a really difficult time. And I, you know, when you have an eating disorder, you tell the world you're fine. And I was in such denial that

anyone who would say you're too thin, I would make up excuses. I, you know, you lie. I hate to say it. It's the lying. I mean, you lie. But deep down, you want so badly for someone to force you to eat. Like, that is what you want more than anything, but you push anyone away who tries to. Sure. So he came at this time when my desire, because I also had a desire, I had a lot of competing desires. I had a desire not to eat, but I was also a pleaser.

And I like Doug. So my desire to please him outweighed just slightly, my desire not to eat. and he started to take me to these beautiful restaurants and we'd get these great meals and he would look at me like a hawk and he would sit there and he'd say, finish your meal. And of course, the demon inside is like,

don't finish your meal. Sure. You cannot eat this, but I would finish my meal. And then I would, of course, go home and want to punish myself, but I started to see him more and more and more. He just wouldn't go away.

He wouldn't go away just like now. You can see. You can start to see. That's the sign of a good relationship. That's the sign of a great relationship. Never leave you alone. Yep, he crawls on in and never left. And little by little, I started to gain weight despite the fact I didn't want to.

And ironically, you know, when your body mass goes above a certain percentage or your body fat, the demon starts to dissipate. And as I started to gain weight, I started to feel better, actually, and start to re-engage in life, even though I never dealt with the feeling. because the eating disorder was just a symptom of my powerlessness, but I began to re-engage in the flow of life. And, you know, I think that's what he gave me was a life, you know, and sort of we followed that into starting Melissa and Doug and having six children and putting one foot in front of the other and, you know, that rigor of living,

which became so overwhelming with everything, going on that it was in a way my salvation, you know, because I was not able to think. And I was just like doing, doing, doing for the next, you know, 25 years. So you, let's talk about six children, shall we? That's where I was going to go. I was like, how many? How spaced apart are they? They are spaced apart.

Well, we have 27, 26. Oh, my God. 18, almost 17, 14, and 13. There's a break for a little. That's okay. Took a little break. I want to talk about the 2726. That's back to back.

Irish twins, we call that. Yes, exactly. We basically had three sets of Irish twins. Right. I mean, that's, yeah, I'm following along. So that's, wow. And six C-sections. Holy Toledo.

Are we seeing the end of you? Is that it? there's nothing go on. Unfortunately, the, yes, the 60 sections and the age have made that. Wow. But even the 6C sections was like part of my martyrdom. It was like, I'm going to have 6C sections and I'm going to go back to work the day after. Oh.

And it, you know, it was this, this like, I'm going to do it all with a smile on my face. Okay, so let's, okay, so let's, this is one of the things that I've been totally bothering Jonathan about for like the last three weeks. Whatever it is, it just moves around, right? Until you get at it, it'll just move around. Oh, I thought you were scheduling me for a C-section. No, I'm scheduling you for six C-sections. No, but whatever it is, it moves around. So we can work ourselves into the ground.

We can starve ourselves into the ground. I'm the compulsive overeating restricting side, so we can do that into the ground. We can have relationships that are unhealthy. We will do, you know, some people drink. Some people do drugs. So do you feel that kind of work became that? I mean, obviously motherhood is its own completely consuming activity. But was work kind of, did that become a thing?

That idea of martyrdom, you know, and I didn't understand it. You know, it was my blind spot. Like I always believed that if you serve selflessly, which was the blind spot, I thought I was serving selflessly. Right. And you give your most to every single thing you're doing and leave no one wanting for anything. No one at work, no one at home, no one in the community. That it was kind of like salvation would be waiting.

And I would be bestowed gratitude for eternity. And I think, you know, thank goodness, I realize this now. So I can educate younger moms. You know, my well was empty to begin with. So it was never full even at the outset of my, you know, adult life. And I became so angry and bitter. And I didn't even know it. You know, I was I was repressing it.

But my verses about martyrdom are so angry. Yeah, very powerful. I mean, I talk about how nobody cared about me and I was just a tool. And, you know, and the truth was not only did I not serve myself, but I now see. I didn't serve my kids either. I just left them unable to develop the skills they needed to become independent. And I left them wanting and angry that I couldn't give them even more than I was ever able to give in the first place. So it served neither of us.

And it was so painful when I realized that I basically had wasted my years exhausting and depleting myself, never putting myself on the list of self-care. And it hadn't even done my intended goal of making them love me more and, you know, want to anoint me, as I said, on a pedestal for serving so selflessly. So before I do want to, I mean, I have so many things to ask about your book, Lifelines. But before we go there, I do want to know, was there a moment, a series of moments where you got help, like the help that kind of got us here? It's a great question. And believe it or not, it didn't come until I had a series of what I called dot moments. There are those epiphanies that are like, oh my goodness, and the dots start to connect. And you realize kind of everything becomes clear for the very first time. So the first dot moment came when I read, speaking of Holocaust, I read the book Man Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel for the second time. And you know how. you read something when you're not ready and it doesn't really do anything for you and I read that book in

20s and was like wow poor guy you know tough story like put it in my bookshelf right man the holocaust really sucked yeah like wow of course they had a meaning crisis and then I read it again like five years ago wow and I'm telling you it was the first dot you know I he talked about logo therapy, which is crazy. And I never heard that word. I mean, I read the thesaurus for fun. I mean, I never heard logotherapy. I never heard existential. Never heard that word in my entire life. And I'm like, right. And when I looked up logotherapy, my heart stopped because it said that man's main motivation in life is the search for meaning. And I was like, the search for meaning. Like, that's what I've been. I mean, my whole life, I've had three questions. Why am I here? What is the

meaning of life if we are all ultimately going to die and turn to dust? And what the heck am I meant to do in my brief time here? And I have never, had never gotten the answers to those questions and live life, you know, really in a sense of utter futility. Right. Because I thought everything was absurd and I was just kind of biding my time until the, you know, doom overcame me. Oh, yeah. So five years ago, so you pick up the book again, you're like, oh, my gosh, you look that up, then what? I look up and I see that, oh, my goodness, I have something that has a name. And not only does it have a name, but the people who were afflicted with it were some of the most prolific creators of our time. And I suddenly, not that I was putting myself with them, but I suddenly realized, oh, my goodness, I have a blurs.

and basically it's a blessing and a curse mixed. And my whole life I had thought I was cursed because the qualities that make me able to create are what are called over excitabilities. They're a heightened arousal of my central nervous system that make my sensitivity to the world in all its pain and all its beauty so high that I sometimes can't bear either joy or pain. And when I saw that I was also afflicted with all five of these hypersensitivities, I probably cried for three straight days. Sure. Because everything I had tried to kill and destroy my entire life, I suddenly realized were those very qualities giving me the ability to create.

That is so profound, Jonathan. I'm left a little speechless. I'm a little speechless, too. It was incredible. It was like, you know, when a window opens onto your soul and you feel your entire life, you have been on an island by yourself with no one who will ever understand you. You know, it's incredible. And I wrote a verse, I think, that very day, which are creatives are maligned for being overly dramatic, exceedingly despairing and uncommonly dogmatic. But it's those divergent qualities that burr such brilliant art, and we all deserve a chance to be exalted from this start. Holy Toledo. What did you do then? Like, I mean, I will say, as a highly sensitive person, I remember when I read, like, about

people like me, like, so much shame dropped away and so many people that I wish I could like punch in the face, you know, my whole life. I mean like literally just like wanted to forgive me I wanted to punch so many people in the face who had said you're to this you're to that you're never going to that you're not you know how how can anyone deal with you how can anyone you know like many ex-boyfriends possibly all of them anyway but it's not like that happened and then you were like okay all better like you still you have kids and and also you have a partner so some people might say like how could she feel alone she had a partner, but that's the point of an existential experience and crisis.

When I realized this was the first time I said, I need help, because I suddenly saw that I had denied everything I was and everything I felt my entire life. And I had never accepted myself. And that was why I couldn't accept anyone else either. So as a parent, you know, I had a huge flaw. My kids will proudly tell you, you know, I really couldn't feel. I was in the spectrum of emotion. I had one emotion.

It was at the very top of the spectrum. And it was great. They'd be like, how are you, Melissa? Great. How are you? Good. Awesome. How are you?

Oh, I'm glad. Good, good, good. I was literally like a shell because, and it wasn't because I was hiding my emotions. They were so repressed. I didn't even know they existed. So then what did you do? Do you go talk to someone? Do you have to like go sleep for six days and just have them put hal doll in you?

Like, what do you do? The first path was I need to take this journey inward and accept myself in totality. But I knew at the end of the path was the existential despair that I had raced away from my whole life. And it was going to be so dark and terrifying that there was no way I could go there myself. That is what I was in the feudal race outside myself because I knew. that darkness was, who it was going to swallow me. So that's when I got my therapeutic partner, a professional, who I ended up taking this four-year journey inward, that, by the way, has become the centerpiece, the coolest thing ever.

I got to take this journey that I took metaphorically, and I got to turn it into an ecosystem with backpacks and tools. That was part of it. And the journey was exactly what I thought it would be, the most arduous expedition of my life and took me so low at points that I never thought I'd come out. You know, when I had to face that existential despair in the, stared in the eye and come to terms with the fact that that was, you know, that was going to happen. It was really tough. But I did emerge. And then the, so that gave me my self-acceptance, that path.

But guess what was still missing? What was missing, Melissa? My meaning. I still didn't have my meaning. So that path was so cool. That was a philosophical path. Because the truth is I was suffering from a crisis of meaning that philosophers since the beginning of time had pondered. Like, I was not the first person that had pondered this. From Socrates

on, these brilliant, oh, philosophers had studied and pondered these questions and come up with really profound answers. And so I went back. I started, I mean, I never thought about philosophy. And I never even saw myself as intellectual. And now I see myself as like, oh, so intellectual. Because I denied all my hypersensitivities, one of them being intellectual. And I realized, so this is the coolest thing. I realized at the end of the day, my intellectual hypersensitivity is the one that gave me my existential despair because it allowed me to ponder higher realities. And it also gave me my way out through the philosophical path that enabled me to study these philosophers and find the way out. So that brings us to lifelines, which is this very big heavy book, which is so fantastic.

And I'm just going to read the, I'm going to read the friend. Get a little emotional right now. Today I saved a life, although it was my very own, which won't serve a greater purpose till I rescue lives unknown. And it says lifelines, an inspirational journey from profound darkness to radiant light, Melissa Bernstein, in the font that many of us feel is the font of our lives. Founder of Toy Company, Melissa and Doug, survivor of existential anxiety and depression. And there are 10 chapters in this book. Creativity is one, loneliness, nature, powerlessness, perfectionism and martyrdom, the futile race, hypocrisy and duality, curiosity and possibility, presence, and liberation. And the thing about this book,

it's literally like we get to open your mind and we get to see all the things that are in there. And then there are certain sections that it's like, oh, now I'm like in her heart. Like she just poured her heart onto this page. And it's very very, visually really, really beautiful. You're a true lover of nature, which, as any great existential philosopher should be. But it's part essay and mostly prose. The perfectionism and martyrdom section is incredibly powerful, and especially the stuff about body image.

And I recommend this book very highly is something that I will say. But it's really, it's very, very difficult to kind of articulate what you've done here, meaning you have to kind of experience it, which I think is sort of like life, you know, we can try and like talk our way through it, but you just kind of like put one foot in front of the other. And what I don't know if this is how you're supposed to use this book. I mean, I'm sure there are many ways. But what I've been doing is I just like turn to any page and I just read and just kind of like see where, you know, see what comes up for me and see where it takes me. You know, this book is like, it is part memoir.

It's part journey. And it's like, it's a tool, though. And it's arguably one of the most intimate books I've ever seen because it's you. And you're sharing like literally the things that people don't share. You know, it's all the things probably that you were told. We don't talk about this. We don't air our dirty laundry. We don't need to go there.

Don't, you know, like, so can I tell you a story? So this book is just another example of what has happened to me my entire life. Because from the time I was a little child, every single thing that came authentically out of my soul was rejected by mainstream society. Wow. And if I tell you the story of this book, it's the first time I'm really sharing it, you know, in a big way. you know, people had asked me to write books for years. And guess what type of books they were? They were the books about the six children, the pretty photos, the anecdotes. How do you do it all, Melissa? How do you balance, Melissa? Like, tell me how you run a $500 million company and have six

children and an adorable husband to do. And a great smile. She's got a great smile that, Melissa. And dinner's on the table at 6 p.m. sharp every day. And those kids even check their ears. They're all clean. It was, and I knew that would, that book would never come out of me. Oh, that would put you, honestly, that would put you in your grave, I think, if you had to, like, sit there and like, you know. Exactly. And I knew that I always, I knew. And from, you know, when I was in my early 20s, I applied to an MFA program with. my verses and I was rejected. I mean, really rejected. It wasn't even a good MFA program. It was a non-ranked MFA program. And they basically said, you know, I write about it in the creativity words chapter. They said your verses are truly sophomoric and not of the caliber our program demands. And even though I knew what sophomoric meant, I decided I'd look it up just in case maybe I was wrong. And, I wasn't because it meant stupid, dim-witted, inane, and foolish. And I would want to have that tattooed on the inside of my eyelids so that I would always carry

that rejection with me. Your sophomoric. It was so painful that I stopped writing for 25 years. Oh, God. I stopped writing my verses because that one man told me that my writing wasn't worthy of, you know, being out there in the world. So, you know, that happened. Then guess what? The same thing happened with my toys. You know, the toys, same thing. We sell 70 million toys a year, and we've never won the awards, ever. You know, we've never won anything conventional, and we've never, you know, we're never recognized in that way. And I don't care because obviously that's the last thing I care about because I don't make that type of product. But, you know, it's just funny because it's like figures that doing the thing that the people want is not recognized by those lofty reviewers

from above who are evaluating the toys. And of course, all I care about is what the kids think. Like, I could care less with the ears. The kids love the toys, Melissa. The kids go bananas for the toys. especially little Waldorf plump, plump happy blonde children. They love it. So, of course, thinking conventionally, when I started going through this book process, I went to a literary agent,

the top one in New York City, and which she was thrilled. And I said, I'm going to write this book. And she was like, well, make sure you, you know, we go over it. You show me every chapter. And we really craft it together. And I am telling you,

this book poured out of, of me in three months. Oh my gosh. This one didn't have to come by C-section. This was the biggest child I ever gave birth to, but no C-section. It was like waiting to be birthed. And the volumes came directly from the 3,000 plus verses that I had gathered that had never seen light. And when I divided them into their categories, they were these exact 10, well, 11, because creativity has two two chapters. But 10 to 11 volumes, and it was so simple. It was like, and then I took my journals, and it was like all there. So yeah, I want to know, where did you write? Like, where were these 3,000 things? Where were they compiled? Where did you keep them? Not nicely. They were mostly on

toilet paper. So it turns out that that is where the inspiration came. I must have been sitting there a lot when I was young. I don't quite remember that. Lots of napkins, lots of toilet paper. And paper, lots of little scraps, and they were just shoved everywhere. I mean, I must have lost hundreds of them. But I thank goodness I didn't throw out all of them because they were just like everywhere. And as I began to sort of put together the shatter pieces of my soul, you know, that was part of it that came together and I started to transcribe them on a computer. So that was the first time they had seen light. And what happened then is I finished this book and she wrote me one day and she's like,

I haven't heard from you. Like, do you have the outline? And I was so excited. I'm like, oh, no, got a little more than an outline. I have an 800 page book because it was like 800 pages to begin with. You're like, how do you do a 637? It was actually 850. Of course.

So I'm like, oh, well, I actually haven't done. I'll send it to you. Thinking that she would be like, oh my goodness, this is the. next, I don't know, great writer like something. Of course, I shouldn't have been so naive to think someone would actually like my creativity. And about a week and a half later, I got the most horrifying letter back ever. She said, memoirs are the worst genre you could ever do. And a memoir with verse will never sell. She said, you, this is not going to work. I wish you had asked me before and heeded my advice. And I'm very upset that you went ahead and wrote

the book without me helping you. And I was so devastated. Even though this has happened to me and I was like, almost 50 years old at this point, it was like I was as devastated as I had been with that university professor. And for two days, I didn't even show Doug. I was so ashamed that this thing that had come so organically out of my soul and was everything I stood for in my entire life. She was like, it won't sell. So I waited two days and then I finally got up the courage to show Doug the letter and his response might have been the greatest thing ever. He was basically like, Blanker. We're going to do it. We're going to do it on our own just like we're going to do it on our own just like we've done everything else. And if she told you it was great, would that, you know, wouldn't that

mean that it's not going to touch the people it's meant to touch? Right. So I kind of like started to smile through my tears and I was like, you know what, Dee? You are absolutely right. And when this book hit number one on Amazon last week, I wanted to send her, I didn't. Oh, I, I Oh, if you haven't, I will. I want the MFA guy's name. I want her name. I'm going to literally, I will go. I'll do a YouTube video.

I'll tell five million people that they were wrong. I really wanted to. And Doug and I both, we like started to write the letter. Like, we've got to do it because, you know, you just want that. Like, even, yeah, chip on the shoulder, okay? Even people with a lot of recovery and therapy still want to do that. I wanted you so badly. I wanted to say, take this, sister. Seriously. Who's, I want the, well, we'll talk after. I want the MFA guy too. So that's this book. That is this book.

This book didn't have anybody edited at all. It is exactly as it came out. And it was, I was like, it is no one is touching this. This is a book that I'm already starting my list of people that I plan to send this to because this is like, Thank you. This is one of those books. Like, Jonathan, you know who I'm going to send it to. Well, I'm going to send it to you, obviously, because I only got the copy. But no, like, I'd say there's, like, a dozen people in my life who need this book. And I think also, like, the story behind it is what's so beautiful.

And, like, I cannot, I'm going to start to cry. I can't even get into that Doug wrote your about the author. I know. He really did, too. I'm going to start. And then I'm going to stop because I'll cry. My best friend, wife and business partner. Melissa. Melissa's too humble to introduce herself. So I volunteered to do that for her. And like he's

this whole thing and it's got a heart and I'm going to lose my mind. And then it said, I can't wait for the rest of the world to be inspired by Melissa the same way I have been since our very first date in the summer of 1986. And then he signs it Doug. It's just everything about you is so delicious. It's like I want to put it in a pie and eat it. But you know what? Just like our toys, that being said, like it's not for everyone. And I was the greatest thing, like I've come so far is I am okay with that. Just like every person doesn't want an open-ended wooden toy. You know, not every person wants someone who is like taking you into the boughs of her despair.

Right. And, you know, and that's okay. Like I would rather touch a few people a lot than everybody a tiny little bit, but they forget like the next day what they read. You know, I'm okay with that. And I have to be okay with that because that's who I am. That's the quote we're going to use. Melissa Bernstein says,

I want to touch a few people a lot. With no other context. With no other context. Melissa, thank you so much. Thank you so much for sharing your story with us and your journey and this book. And thank you for, you know,

for being brave enough to like really color outside the line. not just with this book, but kind of with your life. And it's just such a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much. You are so welcome. That was so much fun. Mind Bialx Breakdown is supported by Osea. The thing I like most about mine besides her brain is her skin.

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with the promo code breakdown at Oseaamalibu.com. You also get free samples in every order, which is awesome, and free shipping on orders over $50. That's 10% off with the code breakdown at Osea Malibu, O-S-E-A-M-A-L-I-B-U.com. You're my solution to existential crisis. You're my existential crisis. Funny how that works.

I'm floored by what just happened. Episode over. You're floored. Great interview. I mean, there's... You're the solution to existential crisis. I think all the audience would agree. There's so many things.

How come we don't write a 600-page book? Who says we're not? I have a document. It's 85 pages that I've been working on. of us. Just a few more to go. A lot of it is prose. It's not written on toilet paper, though. Maybe I'm doing the wrong thing in the bathroom. I thought you're going to say maybe I'm doing the wrong thing in life. And I was going to be like, I know, right? There are many things that are beautiful about their story. One of the beautiful things is their love affair. I mean,

it's magnificent. I have so many questions about that. And the other thing that's amazing is, as she said, this book is not for everyone. It's not. And it was not for that publisher lady. But what they decided to do, I mean, that's so sweet that he said, let's do it like we've done everything else in our world. You know, they did it. It's printed in Canada. Shout out to our Canadian friends who printed this book. I mean, it's a beautifully printed book. It's really like an art piece. It is like it's a coffee table book. And this is the thing. Like it literally is, it's like opening up her brain and opening up her heart.

And it's a lot. And it may not be for everyone. but the categories are things that we talk about here. They are. The body image stuff is out of control. And some of the pros is also really, really powerful. I want to just read one thing if you don't mind. Let's do it. My desire to please manifested in an all-out mission

to attain perfection in both my appearance and pursuits. For starters, my body needed to mirror those of females I aspired to become and befriend. Tall, slender, and perfectly proportioned. with long tanned legs and impeccable features. And she goes on, like all the things. This wasn't just a lofty dream, but a fanatical mission to emulate and gain acceptance from the most popular individuals

with whom I shared not one thing in common. And just the notion, like, that really blew my mind. Just that notion of like everything she liked or was interested in was not accepted by mainstream culture. And I hate to make this about me. But like, I felt that way from such a lot of, a young age, like the way I wanted to dress, the things that I was interested in, it was always like a very small cadre of people that got it, you know? And when I finally, it was actually during

my blossom years when kind of all my friendships really revealed themselves to be very, you know, and these were people I had known some of them since I was seven years old. The relationships could not tolerate what was going on in my life, meaning those friends were unable to handle. that I became a public person. And so the people that I gravitated towards were these like outside of the mainstream types because that's who got me and that's who I got.

And it was those people like I started going to Venice Beach. Like we would literally, can you imagine? I was, I don't know, 15, 16. We would like take the bus. We would take that like we would go to Venice Beach and we would get hair wraps done, which was like very counterculture then. And I was not into drugs.

It wasn't that kind of thing. I mean, many people weren't. but it was just like going to Venice Beach to like hang out with all the misfits. And like, you know, I started adding all the piercings that I have in my ears. And like it was when I started fantasizing about what color I'd like to dye my hair. And like, I wear army boots with everything. Like that became like my thing because like that's what I wanted to do. And just to think that like so many aspects of meeness then were expressed when I became a mom.

And people were like, you want a natural birth? What are you a martyr? you know, you want a home birth? What is that? Like, what are you trying to breastfeed and show that you're better than everyone? And like, every step of the way of being a parent in those days was like that. It was like that. And it wasn't until I found my tribe, you know? I did. I found those people. Some of those people is actually how we met. You know, I found those people who were doing things outside of the mainstream, but not in ways that were unhealthy or dangerous or illegal. Take home message. Find people who do things. things differently, but not in a dangerous, illegal, immoral way. I could really relate to this struggle between, like, being this martyr but wanting to be saved and that push that, like, all she wanted was someone to actually see her well enough, to see through the defense mechanism or whatever she's outwardly projecting to know her enough to call her out. And I think there are so many people who, if not just like that,

have something similar where they're like, actually what they really want is someone to be able to know them well enough, to be able to call it out and to be able to help. I mean, the notion, I thought she was going to say like, oh, the journey started like when I was young. Five years ago people. Her kids, I mean, were all above the age of eight by seven. Like she had already raised children who are adults and still. And like, that's so powerful. It is never too late to finally do this kind of work. And I really like, she seems like she's a very private person in some ways, but I want to be like, what pills are you on?

Bring them to me. I want to know the pills that you take. Maybe she doesn't take pills. She probably doesn't. I don't know. Did she physically go on a journey with her therapist? Did they physically trek to her? I don't think so.

I think that was a metaphorical journey with the backpack and the tools. I think the tools are emotional tools. I know my therapist listens to us. I would like her to come with me on a journey with a backpack. I think we could do amazing work on the top of Machu Picchu. All right. I'm going to confess another thing. When I was younger, and this was probably, I don't know, I want to say between like eight, nine and like mid-teenage years,

I would lie because I would anticipate not wanting to tell someone something they didn't want to hear. Yes. To hear. Or I was anticipating a negative reaction. You still do that. You still. No, I do. Absolutely do not.

You totally, totally do that. No. I quit. I quit. I quit. That is so untrue. You're lying right now. This is why I don't admit things to you because you take them out of context.

I'd like to take it back to your point. There was a specific time in your life where, basic, see, I'm a chronic exaggerator. Lying is like a different thing for me, but I'll like bend that truth, but for you, it was like a way to, was it a way to not make noise? It became like,

you know, I guess like early teenagers. It became like such stupid things that had like no, but like I knew for example like, oh, did you speak to this person that I knew that other person didn't want me to speak to? No, didn't speak to them. You know, it was like nothing of severity that I was lying about, but then I would

like get caught in those lies. Okay. So that, I mean, lying. And then try to keep all of them straight was an insane exercise. And so this is why I think that I'm so annoyed at your reaction is because in my adult life, I was like, okay, that is a toxic behavior. Totally toxic. Simply because of the energy it takes to try to keep it all straight.

And so I've made a conscious effort to be like, I will be like bluntly to the point. Like, actually, I'm going to go to three. You want me to commit to something? Actually, I can't commit to it because I don't want to say yes and potentially then have to change it because that would be a misdirection of my intent. Like, I go, I went to the opposite extreme. So clearly, uh, you don't think that's the case. Is this part of why you don't like to do a lot of things or engage with a lot of people to avoid having to lie? Okay.

We're all clear now. Well, that didn't go as I had planned. Let's do it ask my many things. And I'll tell the truth. Ask MyM Anything. Yeah. Today's Ask MyM Anything is from Audrey, who has a question about teachers handling anxiety. Let's play the tape.

Hi, big fan. Anyways, I just want to check in and see if you have any advice for teachers. So I'm a teacher. Just got done finishing another day of virtual at home school. And I'm just wondering, what is your? your advice for anxiety in children? What kind of tips do we have? You know, we're in a pandemic, which just is heightening some of the students' anxieties, while others that I had, I taught last year that have like heavy social anxiety are actually doing better virtually because the social

pressure of school is off. First of all, Audrey, thank you so much for your question and thank you for your great service to the children that you teach and the community that you serve, you know, this situation and this pandemic, I think, has revealed many things we didn't want to know, and meaning about each other, about our fears, about who to trust, about how the government works. But it's also revealed some things that I think that we needed to know. And one of those things is that the level to which children learn differently, I think, has been really, really highlighted when we remove them from the situation they normally learn in. And in that, sense, yes, for children who experience social anxiety and for whom it can be distracting,

literally just to be around other people or to be under the pressure of having to raise your hand or know what to say or how do you say it, that pressure being relieved has been tremendous for a lot of children. And as a socially anxious adult, I can tell you it holds for adults as well. But the general anxiety that our children are under is something that I would, I wish I had like a definitive answer for. I'm figuring it out as I go simply as a mom. One of the things I've noticed is that we can't, you know, it's an expression you can't cure normal. And it is normal to feel anxious right now. The level of anticipatory anxiety that we're all experiencing is very hard for children to process. Children like to know what's what. They like to

know where they can go, where they can't go. You know, a lot of people are like, kids need to be free. They absolutely need to be free, but they also need to have structure, and they need to have a routine. And I think a lot of this year has just been adjusting to a new routine. And I think even the most well-natured children probably have experienced a certain amount of challenges this year. One of the things I've done as a mom, which I would imagine might help as well in the teaching environment, is to try and really, you know, pick our battles in terms of where we need to kind of assert authority and discipline. Discipline's very important, especially now. And I happen to be a person who's kind of high on the discipline scale, I'd say, whereas a lot of people think I must be very laissez-faire. I'm actually

not. But I've noticed that when I need my children to do a task, especially academically, I can't also expect the same kind of behavior from them that I would, were we not in a global pandemic? And that notion of kind of giving them a break has been very helpful to me. That doesn't mean that all the rules go out the window. It just means that I get to be gentler with myself and with my kids. And I hope that that's helpful. And I think also I just want to highlight the tremendous work that teachers have to do right now. Because also you don't know what people are telling their kids when they go home.

Some kids look at the news. Some kids don't. Some kids, you know, will be walking through, you know, the living room and hear what's on. my computer and be like, what's going on in the world? And other kids live in a very protected bubble. And so teachers have to deal with all those things. And it's got to be incredibly difficult, in addition to how difficult it is to be an educator. So thank you so much. I hope that was helpful. And my hope also is that we'll be able to continue to work towards a world and communities where teachers are given the mental health support that they need so they can continue doing their

jobs to the best of their ability. This was really, really, really special. to Melissa and Doug, and also getting to talk to Melissa and Doug with someone who I've played with Melissa and Doug toys around with our children when they were younger. Or last week. No one knows. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and biologics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph.D. or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break.