Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Michael Sweetney: Write Your Own Story

Episode Date: September 28, 2021

Michael Sweetney, (former NBA player & current Yeshiva Assistant Coach) details his journey through professional basketball, from the pressure he felt as a star player and student athlete at Georgetown to his experience with depression after the sudden, tragic loss of his father. He opens up about why he hated playing basketball at first, the grueling mind-body experience of being drafted, and the criticism he faced for removing himself from the NBA. Michael explains his backfired attempt to use basketball as an outlet following his father’s death, which resulted in a suicide attempt and how his family structure and faith motivated him to seek help. Mayim breaks down reasons the rate of depression is so much higher in professional athletes and the causes and dangers of professional masking. She and Michael discuss trying to balance work and grieving and ways the conversation about mental health around athletes has evolved over time. Mayim suggests ways to broach mental health topics with your family in another installment of Ask Mayim Anything.  BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

How long after your father passed was this your suicide attempt? Maybe six months? It was right away because, like, I was lucky. I didn't have any things in my childhood that, you know, any things that scarred me back in the day that made me this way. It was just, it was sudden. It was all new to me. So when that happened, I did not know how to happen. Hi, I'm Myamialik.

And welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's my and Bialics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break... Today we're going to be talking to a very exciting guest. Michael Sweetney is a former NBA player.

He was drafted the same year as some incredibly famous people. A couple you might know. Such as... LeBron James. LeBron James. It was a big draft year, 2003. And Michael Sweetney had a very public, a very public encounter with depression

and actually attempted suicide during his time in training after the sudden tragic loss of his father. And he has really had an incredible life and does really amazing work and is just so articulate. I'm just extremely excited that I get to speak to someone who is in the NBA. I'm a New York Knicks fan. And if you're listening at home,

if you're not watching us, we are in matching Shambrae shirts today, but under my shirt is a New York Knicks shirt. For those of you who might be new to our podcast or watching us on YouTube, the man to my right, the Scotty Pippen, to my Michael Jordan. Oh, she went there.

I did. She hits three jump shots and now she's Michael. This is Jonathan Cohen. Before we get more into Michael Sweetney, Jonathan, do you want to tell people a little bit more about us? If you haven't already, subscribe to the podcast. Give us a five-star review because it does help us make more. And if you want to check out our matching outfits and my New York Knicks tattoo.

Because I keep it under my clothes. I wish. Instead of parading it around like Mime does, check out Mime's YouTube channel. And click the little bell to get notifications for new episodes. There's some other stats that I wanted to just kind of put out there. And I don't want to overwhelm us all with numbers, but the most common mental disorder in athletes is depression, even more than in the general population,

because you might be saying like, well, it's just a sampling of humanity. True. But it's 26% for former elite athletes compared to one in five. Is that right? That is right. So it's slightly more than in the general population. Myam, read us the stat about people ages 10 to 34,

because that one just blew my mind. Well, first, before I tell the stat about ages 10 to 34, the total suicide rate increased between 1999 and 2018. So that's almost, is that 10 years by the math? Yeah. It increased 35%. That's astounding. It's not a good metric.

And one of the other metrics is like depression is the cause of over, you know, two thirds of reported suicides. I mean, typically people who commit suicide are depressed, you know, suicidally depressed. But there may, there sometimes are, you know, other factors. But suicide is the second leading cause of death for ages 10 to 34. Now you might be thinking, well, not that many people are dying necessarily from 10 to 34. But yes, they are. The second leading cause of death for ages 10 to 34.

There are two and a half times more suicides than homicides in the United States. You know, the notion that athletes are part of a significant portion of our society, our entertainment and our economy. And that depression or mental health challenges in general in that community might be looked at as a detriment is, I think, something very significant. And that's what we're going to talk about with Michael Sweetney. Jonathan, do we have a word of the day? We do have a word of the day. Word of the day. So the word of the day today, like many of our words of the day, is kind of a bit of a concept.

Michael mentions it in the episode. He said he was a professional masker. Hmm. What does that mean? What does that mean professionally masking or just masking? Well, let's put professional aside for now. The concept of masks is not, this isn't like an elaborate clinical DSM. Myam got a PhD so she could explain this word to you.

But the concept of the masks we wear is something that has been kind of taken on in many fields of conversation about our mental health. Do you know people who act like everything's fine, but you know that nothing's fine? That's what I do in this podcast, Chair. Pretty much. We refer to those people as, you know, wearing masks. I mean, we all wear masks. And this is something also in feminist circles. We talk a lot about the masks women wear in particular.

but we all wear masks. You know, there's a way that we behave when we go to work. And there's a way that we behave when we're with our partner. And there's a way that we behave with people on the street. But there are times in our life, and as an actor person, I feel this intimately, where we have to put on a mask of being okay, even when we're not. There are people who are not actors who have learned this as a skill. It's a coping mechanism.

It's usually a survival mechanism. And it's different for everyone. You know, Michael has a very specific situation that, that he was in surrounding his father's death. But sometimes if people grow up in abuse, you learn to not show that you're hurt. Often if you grow up in a home where there's alcoholism or mental health

and parents or caregivers are exceptionally consumed or busy with their own stuff, you learn to not make trouble. There's kind of two responses to that as a child. You either make a lot of trouble or you learn to make no trouble and kind of not be seen and wearing a mask, you know,

and not showing really what's going on is a way to protect yourself. Also, if you come from a highly critical home, wearing a mask is a way to not have a constant intrusiveness by a parent that might be overbearing or terrifying. But what is the danger of professionally masking or constant masking? Yeah. When our guest talks about being a professional masker, what he means is that he was an expert that under the most difficult circumstances, he was still able to keep that up. Most people will crack before that. And that's just being human.

You know, we all have to, these are all levels. You know, these are levels of this. But what happens when you mask is that it extends the amount of time between you having an issue and getting help. Because you start essentially, that mask becomes part of who you are. And you stop even registering in many cases what you're feeling or how you're feeling. It can be very, very dangerous. And if you have a partner with whom you're still kind of wearing that mask, this also happens with people who are closeted, you know, and who are in relationships with people and they're trying to make it work as a heterosexual or whatever it is.

The space between you and other people increases, and sometimes it's intangible. But Michael's story is really a beautiful example of what happens when you have the support when you remove that mask and how, you know, liberating it can be. So anyway, that's a little bit about masking. It is a real pleasure to welcome Michael Sweetney. He's an American basketball player. He played basketball for Georgetown University before being drafted to my New York Knicks in 2003. He was then traded to the Bulls, actually. We didn't even get into that.

Traded to the Bulls, that's the Scotty Pippen-Jordan connection that I didn't even realize. And he also has served for the past several years as the assistant coach for Yashiva University's men's basketball team. We'll talk all about that with him. That's right. Yeshiva University. That's an Orthodox university in New York. He also served for some time as the head coach of the girls varsity basketball team at Ramaz, which is a religious girls in school.

He's not Jewish. I should just say that. But his connection with the Jewish community is also something that we will talk about. I'm so excited right now to welcome Michael Sweetney. Break it down. Thank you. Thank you. It's an honor to be here. Huge fan of yours, by the way. Oh, my goodness.

Okay. So we're, obviously, we have so many things that I want to talk to you about. And I'm a huge basketball fan. And it's also, you know, I've said for many years that in my next life, I want to come back as an NBA basketball player. So it's just a real honor to get to speak to someone who, you know, has walked a path that so many of us, you know, can only dream of and I just think I respect so much what you've also done with your voice. I was raised on the Knicks of the late 80s and early 90s. So, you know, I was raised with Patrick Ewing as sort of like the pinnacle of. That's my minute's over by the way. Yeah, I know. I'm freaking out, Michael.

I'm freaking out. So, you know, I was raised like baseline jumper was like that was the image of my childhood was, you know, watching with my father of blessed memory, you know, so I was raised in New York Nick. My parents are from the Bronx, and I was raised to root for New York teams. And also I rooted for the Knicks when, you know, there was a tremendous amount of glory, you know, about that team. And, you know, I was a Starks fan, like all the good things, you know. And so, you know, your journey also in particular is very, you know, kind of close to my heart just from that kind of perspective. But maybe you can tell us just a little bit about like how'd you get there like how do you get like what's that trajectory like where'd you grow up what was it like were you raised in kind of a you know a sports

community was it clear you were athletic like i want to know in my next life what i should prepare what was your life like to kind of put you on that path um so i'm from oxen hill maryland uh so uh sitting in um prince george's county um about 20 minutes from D.C., 45 minutes from Baltimore. I grew up there with my mom and dad. I had an older brother, and I started playing basketball at the age of nine. And to be honest with you, I hated basketball when I first started playing. My father wanted me to be active and give me something to do.

He decided to put me in basketball. I hated going to practice. I hated the games because at the beginning, I didn't really know how to play. I was kind of clumsy, still trying to figure it out, and I was kind of embarrassed because everybody else was much better than me. So I just didn't like it The first couple of years And I had a young coach

Coach Gerald Moore He's one of my first coaches And he instilled this confidence in me Where, hey, you can do anything You can keep working at it You know, just, you know, keep working And I see so much potential in you I'm like, what is he seeing me?

And I'm like, what is he seeing? And he's like, your footwork I just see things that can get better And he just, you know, continuously Just put that in my head And I worked And next thing you know I went to high school

and as a freshman, I made varsity. And that was kind of a big thing because my high school team, we had an All-American, we had some good players. So I made freshmen as a varsity, got some good playing time. And then for my sophomore year, things just blossomed.

I became, you know, average like 20 points. Wow. And life's changed for me, my sophomore year, legendary late coach, John Thompson, George, Georgetown, who recently passed away. He came to one of my high school games,

and this is a crazy story. Everybody thinks I'm crazy about it. So he came to one of my high school games. And I'm like, what is he's doing here? the game. I'm thinking he's there recruiting somebody else. I'm, I'm a sophomore in high school. It comes to one of my high school games,

and I think he's going to recruit somebody else. So after the game, if I was saying, hey, Coach Thompson was here to see you. I was like, oh, really? And it's like, you know, this was like on maybe like on Wednesday or Thursday. It was like, yeah, Saturday morning, we have to go down to the school and visit. So I'm like, whoa, this is a whole thing. So next thing you know, I'll get down there.

Coach Thompson, we have a meeting. It's an unofficial visit. So we have a meeting. It's like, hey, you know, this is what we all about here. Doris Town points a wall with Patrick Ewan, Alainterman, Alonimo, he showed me like all their jerseys. He's like, I believe that you're next.

And, you know, people say stuff. But he told me as a sophomore, he said it so conventionally, I believe him. And so a lot of people who don't know basketball, like, know the ends it out. So right then and there on the spot, I committed to say, I'm coming to Georgetown. Usually kids wait to their senior year to, like, say, hey, this is where I'm going

and, you know, they take visits. I didn't visit no other school. That was my first visit. Wow. He convinced me so much I committed and my high school coach and a lot of my coaches they were upset like why would you make the decision now I was like he believe in me it's something I don't know I can't it's a feeling I don't know what it is but he believes in me and I'm said I stuck with it other schools you know try to recruit and say I said nope I'm going to Georgetown and um went to georgett and he actually retired my senior high school promised me he was still be around he kept that promise and I went

into um you know college as a freshman uh was a starter and all-American my three years years, had a great career. And after my junior year, it had the hard decision to make, whether to come back to my senior or turn pro. And I decided to turn pro in the infamous, amazing 2003 NBA draft. You guys might have heard of a guy named LeBron James. Yeah, yeah, it was a big year. Okay, wait, wait. So hold on. So what, did you always play the same position? Yeah, so I played Power 4. I was always the big guy that it would put me under the basket. So I played Power 4 in center. I kind of switched positions depending on the team. How were you in your sophomore year?

So my sophomore year, and that's the thing, the crazy part, I was six, well, six, three, six, four at the time. So I wasn't even finished growing at the time. So I was like six, three, six, four. And then I had a crazy growth spurt where I grew like three or four inches and I ended up being like six eight. You see, like a lot of my family, not many people are really tall. So I'm the one that's kind of tall. So it's one of those things where I had a crazy growth spurt. And, yeah, so I went from six four to six to eight.

And then that kind of changed everything with my position. I'm six eight. and then guys are like seven feet, seven two that I'm playing against. So I'm kind of at a disadvantage. So luckily, I'm a little, I'm a bigger guy so I was able to use my body. So that kind of helped me a little bit. Okay, so Jonathan, do you have any questions? I got a million questions, but go ahead.

No, you keep going. It's the 6-8 undersized power forward story. This is Michael Sweetney's story. He was 6-8 and still felt like a tiny, tiny man. Yes. My MBialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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Like, this is a tremendous amount of pressure, you know. I mean, being an athlete, you know, especially at the level that you're talking about, like the level of just, first of all, excited. Like, I feel it in my body. How exciting that must have been. Like, you were a kid and you were taken to George. I mean, like, that's an unbelievable feeling. But there's also a tremendous amount of pressure. Like, do you remember what that felt like as a teenager?

Oh, it was a lot of pressure. Especially my freshman year in college. You know, we had a good year. We went to a sweet 16. And then I think once that was over and going to my sophomore year, that's when I felt the pressure. It was like, look, the team is George, curious. And I was like, wow.

And then obviously me being from, you know, being from that area, you know, bringing from, you know, Georgetown is in Washington, D.C., which is not too far from home for me. So that was a lot of pressure. I got all my friends and family back home, like, hey, you know, bringing Georgetown back to where things are great. So I'm, you know, feeling that pressure. And also being the student athlete, a lot of people don't understand.

That is one of the hardest part of students. George Town is a very, very hard school education-wise. And just being honest, coming from a public school, I wasn't really prepared. So it was very tough on me. And they didn't play. It wasn't the stereo. It was like, oh, you don't have to go to class. We didn't have that.

So it was very, very tough school academically and trying to perform on a course. It was tough. Like, I didn't have life. You know, we think of the LeBron's. And, you know, for those of us who watched the last dance and cried every episode, there's this beauty to that fantasy of the fame and, you know, the girls and the women and, you know, all those things, but what's underneath it is this tremendous exhaustion, right? You are pushing your body physically. And one of the things Jonathan and I really talk about a lot on this podcast is there's a

connection between your mind and your body. So if your body is being pushed to those limits, you have to find some way, you know, for your mind to be able to handle it. And if your mind is being stressed, it also takes a toll on your body. So tell us a little bit about sort of what your mind-body experience was, meaning did you, like, go to classes and then you'd, like, work out all day? Like, what was your schedule like, especially in college? Well, in college, most of my classes start about 8, 15, 8.30, you run it in that range. So a lot of times it 6 o'clock in the morning, I'm in the gym, get me a good workout in, was running, lifting weights, shooting, whatever it may be. So I gave me a good hour and a half, sometimes two hours,

hard workout, intense workout in, shower, grab some breakfast, go to class all day. Class is over about four, four-ish, four-thirty, go from class to actual practice. That's just the morning. You know, what I did in the morning was just something just extra to kind of get myself over the edge, but then I'll have to go join my team's practice for three hours. You know, college practices are like 430 to 7. Then you got study hall after that and dinner. So, like, you don't see your dorm room until like 9 o'clock at night sometimes,

sometimes later than that. So it's pretty much all day and it's a grind. So Coach Elliott Steinman, he's saying, you know, you guys got to have a little, you know, not using the word loosely, but a little crazy to have that mindset because, you know, a lot of people can't just do that. And like, you know, and I'm sure like you're in your business, like, once you have a passionate love for something, you do anything to, you know, succeed and do what you've got to do. So sometimes it takes that, you know, you got to sacrifice not having, hanging out with your friends or not doing certain things you love to do. Totally, but I also feel like your business is your body, right? It's, you know, it's everything, like everything you eat, everything you take in, whether you decide to smoke pot or not, like all those things, right? Like, all those things have an impact on, I mean, that kind of pressure sounds so terrifying.

When I was coming into college, I had like a, I was kind of considered overweight a little bit. So I was, you know, 300-something pounds. I had to lose like 40 pounds. Yeah, so you listen to everybody saying, oh, you're this, your dad. So like now it became a psychological thing with me because I hated getting on the scale to see the numbers. Like that, I was terrible. I was like, I said, you got to weigh in.

I immediately like going to a panic attack in my brain. So like that and just knowing like, you know, certain food was like, oh, I want to do this, oh, man, I got to get on the scale tomorrow. So it's like you have these mental things that really, it does. It takes this toll when you mentally like the pregnancy, go back to the pressure part. Like, I want this, but I know I can't have it.

So, and this is also, this is what blows my mind. This is true really for every player who's playing at this level, meaning when you think about, you know, I follow LeBron James on Instagram. You know, in every picture he's like, looking dope. It's like, King, you know, King LeBron. And like, he looks amazing.

But he had to go through this too. Like, everyone in the NBA is subject to this kind of training, schedule, pressure. And then it really just depends kind of on individual variability in, like, how you handle it. you seem like a sensitive guy. Were you always kind of a sensitive guy? If you asked my wife, yeah, I'm a very sensitive guy. She said, you wear your heart and your sleeve so much. Like, I'm a very sensitive way.

I always care about what people think about me. I always cared about, you know, if I'm received in a positive way. So I try to please other people. So definitely, definitely a very sensitive guy. So like, you know, that stuff, you know, you try to, it carries hold for sure. When did you meet your wife? We went to high school together. Stop it.

No, yep. I met her, yes. I met her in high school. I was a freshman and she was a sophomore. Older lady. Yeah, she's an older lady. I always tell her, she's my cougar. She's rollerized at me, by the way.

But, you know, I told her she's my cougar. But, no, we met in high school. She was the manager of the basketball scene. But the funny part, so here's the thing. We were in high school, we were best friends. We were just like best friends. I kind of had a crush on her. We can tell we liked each other,

but we both had a boyfriend and girlfriend. But it was just like, just had this bond that both for our boyfriend and girlfriends, and hopefully they didn't watch, they probably upset now. But both for our boyfriend and girlfriends kind of knew that we just were meant to be together. So it was kind of one of those things. Like, you know, and I'm glad we stayed friends in high school because we probably wasn't ready to. And so once I went to college, that's when we started dating and, you know, things took off from there. Let's get to the 2003 draft. Tell us what the draft was like. Like, what's that like and how did that go for you? The draft process was, um,

It was amazing, to say the least. When I was out, because I kind of did something where I think the rules are changed at the time. I didn't sound with the agent right away. So all the teams came to me and worked out. I didn't have to work out against any other players. I was just working by myself, which puts people think it's easier, but it's not. Because usually you've got four other guys, they can watch this guy, watch that guy. I got teams coming to me, and it's just me to work out.

I got me, the president, the general manager, sometimes the owner. The whole upper management staff is watching your work. All you see was their arms folded, washing you. No smiles, no shaking the head. So I'm like, do they not like the workout? They're not like yourself. Like, it's tough. And they put you through a grueling workout.

I'm talking about pretty much most teams put you through a workout until you break. They want to see how far they can go. What's your mental like? They ask you, you know, kind of weird questions. Like, you know, something was the fire. Who would you say first? A cat or a woman. Oh, like they're testing like logic and ethics.

And it's like, yeah, they test all that stuff. So it's a grueling process mentally. man physically. But it was amazing. I think once we got to New York for the draft, it was crazy because the Knicks, I didn't know it. I had no clue they were taking me because they brought me in the morning of the draft and they met with me at the garden, asked me like two questions. It's like, okay, all right, you dismiss. So I was like, wow, okay, that was weird. I was like, back in my mind, I'm like, okay, well, that's not a team I'm not going to. And so I'm just, you know, just watching all the guys like LeBron, Duane Way, Chris Bosch,

brother asked me. I'm just watching all them, just going through the process. And, you know, with them, they already knew. Like, LeBron, no, he's the one. Carmelo, they already know where they're going. So they kind of like set on their sense. They just having a good time. Me, I'm nervous. I'm really not knowing, you know, I'm from Washington, from the Maryland, Washington, he's in D.C. area,

but I don't know where I'm about to be living for the rest of my life. You know, it's like really one day you're here in New York, and then you're trying to figure out where I'm all about to be living and for the rest of my life. It's all on somebody else's decision. So that was a tough call. And just sitting there watching the names being call, you're sitting in nervous.

I feel it. I feel it right now. Yeah, I'm just sitting in nervous like, wow, what does happen? Like, okay, then like the eighth pick comes. And after the eighth pick was taken, the Knicks were on the board, and my agent gets a phone call. He's like, hey, the Knicks was called me and said they're taking it. I'm so excited.

Yeah, so he's like, so, you know, the Knicks are taking you when they call your name, act it's like, like you're surprised, you know? So that's, you know, that's your thing. I shouldn't be giving that information out, but a lot of players kind of know right then and there they're getting ready to be taken. Some do some know, but most do. And he told me, you know, they're about to call your name,

ask surprise. I was like, okay, cool. So as soon as he told me the Knicks were taking me, I knew the history of the draft picks. They booed. So I'm like, oh, this is my greatest. I'm like, this is one of my dreams I've worked so hard for, you know, like, wow, I'm about to get booed because I knew it was coming.

And they said, you know, David Stern came. He was like, you know, the Knicks select, nice pick Michael Sweetie from Georgetown. The crowd was like, yeah. I'm like, whoa, okay, they cheer. And I was like, wow, I actually got a cheer. So that made me feel good. And I walked across the stage, shook his hand.

The first thing I saw was my mom and dad. Oh, God. Stans crying. It was an amazing experience. So I think Patrick Ewing to this day for that, because him being a legend being from Georgetown, that saved me from getting booed for sure. So you're picked.

And now you're a Nick. So tell us kind of what you know, what happened next in terms of your life and your mental health? So I get picked by the next. As soon as we got picked, the next week we go to the Summer League. And we, some leagues where all the teams get together with their rookies and free agents, they play in the league. So I did that for about two weeks.

And then took a couple weeks off. And then we get, so a week before this season, we do this thing called rookie transition. They teach about finances and how to balance family time and all that. whatever. So my phone was ringing during that, and I get a call that my father, who was my best friend, person that introduced me to the game of basketball, my everything had died of a massive heart attack. My father was a person that introduced him to the game of basketball. Never missed a practice, if I missed a game, but just talked to him that morning. All of a sudden, he's gone. And that was, like, devastating. So we kind of came home and we had the funeral, and the team said,

hey, you know, people was like, take some time off. You know, I said, no, I want to you. use basketball because that's my outlet. So I told me take some time off and I didn't do it. I decided I was going to use basketball as my outlet and it didn't go in my favor, obviously. That's when I learned that basketball was a business. First of all, I mean, so I, you know, what a loss also at such a profound time in your life, you know, and I'm trained as a neuroscientist. So, you know, the brain can only hold so much. So also when you're dealing at that level of excitement, adrenaline, you know, all those things, that fall is much greater, meaning the fall that we all experience when we experience, you know, grief. But the, I mean, that must have felt so, I mean, that's completely out of control, you know,

and there's only so much that a human can hold. My father died. It'll be six years ago. Oh, wow. Sorry to hear that. No, thank you. I just, you know, I remember. That first week, I was like walking on jelly. Like, that's what it felt like. You know, like, I was just like, I wasn't even in my body. And, you know, grief looks different for everyone. But I remember how much I wanted to be able to put myself into things and also found it so incredibly, I mean, difficult, it's not even the word.

You know, it's like you're being asked to stand up straight when you feel like falling down. So I can't even imagine, you know, also to be in that high pressure situation and to be, surrounded by that. So, you know, obviously you, you're a sensitive person, but you had never experienced, let's say, depression per se. I mean, you've already indicated, I don't mean to psychoanalyze you, you know, but you've indicated some things about, you know, being concerned about what other people think of you are wanting to please people. You know, those are sometimes markers of someone who just has like a little bit of tenderness and sensitivity to them. But you had never experienced like depression as a teenager. This was new to you, correct?

It definitely all new. And I think for me, what kind of happened, I understood what it was when it kind of hit me. But just at the time, back in 2003, it wasn't nothing that was talked about how it is now. It wasn't comfortable. And I always used as an example, Ron Artaxat, aka Meta Royal Peace.

People deemed him as this crazy person. He was just so whatever. And like, I've had many conversations, one of the nicest people in the world. Like, you know, it was an amazing person. You know, obviously, he probably, whatever. I don't know what he's about. but, you know, he has, you know, whatever he battles with.

I was like, wow, if I'm barely in the ambious, always at the time when I was with the mix, I wasn't getting the minutes I wanted to get. It was, I was in a business situation where they drafted me, but they had, you know, four other people in my position making way more money than me. So I wasn't going to see the floor. So it was this tough where I just wasn't even getting the chance I wanted to get.

It was a bad situation. So, you know, just hated, at that time, I hated basketball. I hated basketball. I hated going to practice, hated work. So I had that, then going home, dealing with the loves of my father. So everywhere I went, there was no real piece, no outlet. And then, you know, and I never spoke up about it. So, you know, time and time, you know, kicked in. Next to you know, I found myself being suicidal for myself trying to take pills to take my life and just shutting off my family.

And the thing is with me, so I'm going to tell you something, how I was different. I was what you call a professional master where I was just way behind closed doors. But in person, I'm smiling. I'm joking. Oh, life was amazing. I'm good. I hit it with. I hit it well. And still to this day, people were like, I never knew. Because I always, I took pride in making sure nobody knew what I was going through. The only person that really knew, even my mom didn't know.

She knew something, but she couldn't put her hand on it because she wasn't around me. But she was my girlfriend at the time, but my wife now, she was with me every day. So she saw it. She saw the, me being at this point to like at the lowest point of my life. And she, you know, honestly, she battled it with me. So she kind of saw it and just stuck by myself. I mean, you were grieving. And also, you know, for a lot of reasons, you know, you were also in a work situation, you know, this is your job, you know, where you're also not kind of getting what you need and at the same time not having necessarily the emotional strength to be able to manage it. Like that's like, I mean, it's a, it's kind of a perfect storm. How long after your father passed was this your suicidal, your suicide attempt? Maybe six months.

it was right away because like I never, you know, growing up, I really didn't have to really deal with much besides trying to work hard and get playing time basketball wise. I didn't have to deal with much, you know. I was lucky. I didn't have any things in my childhood that,

you know, any things that scarred me back in the day that made me this way. It was just, it was sudden. It was all new to me. So when that happened, I did not know how to handle it. You know, I didn't know how to handle that diversity. I didn't know what to do in the time. I kind of knew what I should have done.

I should have spoken. up and ask for help, but I was scared because I felt like, wow, I'm going to be out of the league. I'm going to be dealing with this person. And so I was scared, like you go back to you saying, I was scared what people would think about me. Well, and this is something that Jonathan and I have really taken notice of in particular, you know, the world of sports. I mean, I think it started also with the conversation around traumatic brain injury and football, where we started having a different perspective on how we view sports and interact with athletes. Because, and look, Spike Lee has talked about this for decades and decades, you know, this is something that we get to experience

for our entertainment and pleasure. We watch people play sports. It's very pleasurable. And there's a lot of complexity to that as well. But when we started talking about traumatic brain injury, it was the first time that I remember hearing people say, well, that's what they do for a living, serves them right, you know. And the conversation started shifting as it needed to that there are people. These are people. These are not just athletes whose job it is to entertain us and to do what we want, when we want the way we want,

and then sell us shoes and sell us cereal and soda pop, right? These are people, and I think we've seen it. I mean, Jonathan, every time there's an article of someone in the NBA who's spoken up about mental health, I mean, Jonathan, do you want to speak to it? The conversation has just changed. 2003 was a different world from where we are now with the NBA cares and Kevin Love

and DeMarter Rosen and even Paul George speaking openly about experiences of depression, players in the bubble last year talking about how difficult it was for them. I don't think a player's internal psychological state as it relates to their emotional wellness was something that was in the conversation or allowed to be back when you were in the league.

I don't know. You would know much more. It definitely was mental health. Definitely wasn't in the conversation back then. You know, so it wasn't even thought about it. said it was like the one person that even mentioned, I said Ron Ottichette, I remember he won his championship to Lakers. And one of the first things he did was thank his therapist.

And everybody laughed at him. That's right. I'm like, why are you laugh? Like, he's staking his therapist because his probably, who knows what he was going through through that year. His therapist probably got him through that season and got him through, you know, wherever he was going through. And people was like laugh at him.

So like, even then, it was just, you know, it was laughed upon. So now people are starting to get a little sensitivity and really starting to understand, like, okay, these are people, but you still got people out there. I hear it all the time where if some athletes speak up, you hear people, oh, he makes, you know, $30 million a year. How can he be unhappy? Yeah, so, like, money, money, you know,

money can't, you know, get you out of depression. Money can't get you out of mental state. If you're trying to go play in the game and your mom is his home building, you know, in a deathly illness, something. Like, I've seen, you know, a player do that. Like, he's battling. He's living in one city. His mom is another city, and his mom is on her deathbed.

Like, you can't, I don't care about that $100 million sitting in front of me. That has nothing to, I can't, that's not going to fix what's inside. So a lot of people would try to put the money part and part. I'm like, like you always say, like you just said, we're still in the day, we're still human. Whether you got a dollar or $100 million, you are human and you're going to fill certain things. So I think hopefully people start to understand that athletes, and not even just athletes, entertainers, you know, entertainers, whether actors and singers, like, it's all, you know, like you said, you're taught to entertain.

And sometimes people forget who you are as a person. Yeah. And I think in this sense, like, mental health is the, it's the great equalizer. You know, it doesn't matter where you come from. It doesn't matter what color you are. It doesn't matter how much money you have. This is something that we all have to, and I guess get to share together. Was your experience that there was kind of a safety, meaning like, did you feel safe when you could be distracted when you were playing?

Or did it feel just like crazy in your head all the time? For sure. For sure, definitely it was a distraction. those two hours on the court where you're just battling, playing basketball, because sometimes your mind is on the basketball. But I'll be a lot of sitting here and say that sometimes I'm on a free throw line on the bench. It doesn't cross my mind like, man, what's my father-bos or how's my mom doing like? Oh, yeah, it crossed your mind. But it is a distraction for a little bit when you get those couple hours where you can not be on your mind all the time. But it definitely

helps a little bit. Well, and, you know, I am nowhere near the level of athlete that you are. But I know that when I'm even just a little bit distracted and I'm trying to sink a shot, like, I can't do it. And I think of the level of training that you and those at that level, you know, you're supposed, you go through a level of training where you're supposed to be able to set everything aside, you know, just leave it. And, but, you know, you sometimes will see a game where it's like, something's wrong with that player. Like, they're off.

And I always wonder, like, they got a whole world in there. You know, and that's part of, though, what that training is that they put you through, right? How much can you take? And that's where, you know, NBA stars are not like the rest of us because there is a level of resilience that allows you to get to sitting in a draft hole. Like, I don't get there. That's never going to be, well, in my next life. Yeah, it's like, if you mentioned, like, what's the draft hall, like, going through the

drive process, like, for everybody on the TV, it's entertainment. Oh, we don't see who gets picked. But back in line, like, some guys are working. You know, me, I kind of knew I was going to get picked. I knew I wasn't going past a certain number. But there are certain guys that don't want the embarrassment of not being picked. Oh, that would be, that would kill me. It would kill me.

Yeah, just imagine, it has happened where a guy's been sitting there for, you know, almost hours just sitting there and watching other people being taken. And sometimes people being taken that's not even there. And you're just sitting there by yourself, like, wow. And that's humiliating. Totally. So, like, you know, it's, it takes a soul, you know. Like I can say, a lot of things are for entertainers other people,

but you forget that, you know, guys are human. It's a tough business. So tell me, so after you had this, at a certain point, I mean, you moved around a little bit, and then at a certain point, you really shifted your life. Can you tell us about sort of the decision? Was that something you and your wife decided together? Like, how did you get into this next phase of life? I think what happened, the biggest thing for me was her mentioning that she was pregnant with my oldest.

And that was right then where I knew I had to make a change because I knew what my father was to me. You know, growing up, my father was an amazing father. And, you know, a great example. He was just a good, you know, a good person. And I knew what I had to be. So I had to do to work. You know, I had to get the counseling, had to get the help, had to, you know, get my spiritual life back. You know, growing up, my father, you know, putting me a spirit.

You know, having a good spiritual life carries a long way. And when I was going through my depression, going through everything I was going through, I was so mad at everything. I was mad at God and I was mad. You know, I was just anything you could think of, I was just angry at. And once I put all that stuff that I grew up on back into my life, it kind of helped a lot.

You know, I learned how to deal with, you know, things, you know, anxiety or depression. If it even comes my way now, I haven't known how to deal with it. So I won't even get to a point where I'm on overdrive. Because I learned how to talk and open up more than whereas I might drive my wife phrases sometimes because I talk so much so I know I can't hold stuff in. I try to get it out and start.

talking most of that helped me kind of shift my life and now probably the best headspace I've ever been out of my life. I mean, that's so amazing. And also, I love how much, you know, how much clarity you have that like these are the steps that you took. So if you can just kind of one by one, so you got into therapy, is that, was that something you did? So here's the thing. So I went to, um, once I had mentioned to my agent at the time that I was going to something, I needed help. I kind of quit basketball. So I was like, look, I'm not going back to NBA. I need help. and he got me with a counselor. And the first counselor I went to wasn't for me.

So rewind, back in it, back in running, selling my age a little bit. But at that time, you know, insurance didn't cover your, so I had to pay for it out of pocket. So every time I would go, you know, the person I was seeing, he was like, all right, cut the check, time ago. So I felt like I was being, I was just there for a check. And it was just a business. But I didn't feel comfortable. So I started telling this person what they wanted to hear and all that stuff. So he kind of like, once a while we kind of went in different ways.

And I had to find another avenue. And mine was taking a job to your way of South America. So I took a job to play basketball overseas. Something kept him pushing me to take this job. And I went over there and I kind of met with someone that really took the steps where it was like all day, breakfast, lunch, dinner, where I kind of had my breakthrough and I understood, you know, I accepted my father's death. I accepted way my career and it because you Google my name is he said.

this fat guy, he's a bus, he didn't do what he was supposed to do. I found a way to drown all that out and I kind of just took the steps. And me to be honest, sit here and say that it happened right then, no. So those four months me been overseas, I still had to do the work. You know, still doing work now. You know, it's work. You know, it's not though you go see a therapist. You know, if you go see therapists for an hour, you still got to do the work. The rest of the week. Yeah, so it was a whole, you know, it was a whole work process for me. And I took the time, you know, like I said, you know, with prayer and, you know, I was still a good family support system help me.

You're a religious person? I will say so, yes. Yeah, I mean, were you raised Christian? Like, what's your? So I was raised Catholic. Oh, wow. Once I met my wife, that changed. And we started going to a church where it was kind of like a non-denomination.

We kind of believe in God and believe in a living right way. And I kind of just keep, we can just kind of, not saying keep it simple, but believing in God, you know, real and right way. and that's, you know, yeah. What's your, I mean, I don't want to get too personal, but I am curious. Like, do you have a prayer schedule? Do you pray before meals? Do you pray when you wake up? Like, what's your, what's your consciousness of God just on a daily basis that you feel kind of keeps you centered?

I have a Bible. I have an app called a Holy Bible app. And so probably every, I actually, I do it every day, but every so often it gives me different. I have like a seven-day plan, a 12-day plan, 21, five-day. So every day switches to, you know, something different. But it's definitely every morning I wake up. I try to get it down. Some mornings I'll get in a rush and I forget,

but I try to make sure I do it before new. That's my goal. You know, me and my wife, we make sure we, you know, we pray before meals and also pray at night before our kids go to bed. So we just try to, you know, they're stealing our kids. And, you know, sometimes even before meals, I would forget to say grace and my kids will make sure. We forgot to say grace.

So how old are your kids now? They're 10-8-6. Wow. Yeah. Wow. So today said I have two boys and little girl. Oh, that's sweet. So the other thing and kind of the way that we got connected is you ended up coaching.

And you are a coach at Yeshiva University, which many people don't know, is the largest Orthodox university in the country. And many of my friends went there. It's a place that I know very well. I have many, many friends who are graduates of YU. So you were really inserted into a completely orthodox environment. Like you coach guys who wear yarmulcas on their head, right? Yeah. And how long have you, how long have you been there now?

So I'm going to backtrack a little bit. So I, I've been, this is my second season at Ysheb University, but I got there because of a guy named Tamir Goodman. Tamir's been one of my good friends since high school. So he was probably one of the first. Jewish people I've ever met, probably the only Jewish person I've ever met growing up, being honest with you. And how it's, so me and so even during my time that I was going through my depression,

it was weird because me and Tamir always had this connection where he will, even there are times I wouldn't talk to nobody, he was always, he would tell you, he would always check on me. We've always stayed in contact from high school until now. And Tamir was known as the Jewish Jordan. That's at least what we call him. A really fascinating player with a really interesting story also. So how it started was when I, he had moved to Israel. And he said, hey, I got this camp called Camp Ramon, the Poconos.

You know, it's my baby. I started it. The basketball program there. Can you run it for me? I said, sure, no problem. He said, yeah, it's an overnight camp. I said, oh, okay. I'm just being honest.

So I didn't know what to expect. I'm just being honest. I didn't know what they expect. You had to sleep overnight with Jews and you had barely met us? Yeah, I didn't know what they expect because that actually was so, it was more so, I didn't know how I was going to be perceived, to be honest with you. I knew, you know, you guys, they were in their comfort, they were in their comfort zone. So I'm coming into their comfort zone.

So I just didn't know what to expect. And so my kids, actually, my wife and kids went with me. And then amazing experience. Probably as soon as I got there, they took my kids. They had a blast. I didn't see them all day, every day. They were just gone every day having a blast, swimming. You think you name it, they were doing it.

Yeah, no, those kind of summer camps are, they're amazing. Yeah. And so that's how I started for me getting it. So I was there for about a month. And, you know, obviously met a lot of good people there, created some relationships. And where did my all started to happen. And people, I started getting bites, different camps, different clinics.

So I went to Israel, not just summer the summer before last. I went to Israel to visit Tamir for his camp. Wow. So I was there with him for a week. And he made a call to Coach Elliot Steinman. She's like, hey, Mike is living in New York now. you think he should, you know, they want to coach there? And Elliot's like, that's a no-brainer.

And so I had a conversation with Elliot over the phone. We hit it off immediately. We had great conversations and came back and the done deal. And kind of that, I think me going to Israel with Tamir and taking Camp Ramon has changed my life in so many ways, for me and my family. How did you like Israel? When he first invited me to Israel, I was nervous because what you see on the news, you think it's this most dangerous place.

So I didn't know what to expect. So I got there and it was one of the most beautiful places I've ever been in my life. And I think the thing that shocked me the most was, I let me and Samir laugh at this story. We were coming back from a camp, like up north. It's about 12 o'clock at night. And we were walking back to our apartment. And I saw some kids playing in the park at 1230 at night by themselves. To ask Samira, I was like, where is the family at?

Where's their parents? He's like, oh, they probably somewhere in the house. I said, they let them come outside by themselves? He's like, yeah. Next day I'm seeing kids like walking to the store by themselves, doing grocery shopping. I'm like, what's going on? I said, how is this a dangerous place? It's more like, I'm like, I'm like, back home.

I'm not sending my kids to a park by themselves or to the store by themselves. So it was like it was such a peaceful place. I visited the Western Wall. It was a great experience. I mean, hopefully when things get better, I can't, I mean, hopefully when things get better, I can take my family there with me so we can go back again. But amazing. And I think that's what really changed.

and really kind of got me comfortable in the community that accepted me. Now, you know, people always say it's a running joke. Like, you know, you're not Jewish, but you're sure one of us. Like, people tell me that joke at all the time. Many Jews have never been to Israel. You did, like, you're doing great. That's awesome. But I mean, I love, I love it, though.

I love it. We pulled up a bunch of stats before this interview just to, like, the impact of depression and anxiety and the potential for suicide for athletes as well as people who are, you know, 10 to 34. And I won't go into the stats now, but it's shocking. You know, it's the second leading cause of death for people 10 to 34 years old. And, you know, you've been very vocal about your struggles and you've been very open. You've been a motivational speaker. What would you say to the people, anyone who is experiencing something right now and trying to hold it in, you know,

who hasn't found that avenue on how to process it yet? Because I think, that's a dangerous place for people to be in. And I think there are more people out there like that than we really even recognize. And the conversation is just starting, which is, you know, why we're here today. No, so thank you for bringing that up. So when I go visit, like, you know, high schools and colleges and, you know, even middle schools, I kind of let it be known, like, you know, your age group is, you know, believe it or not, people just don't all make assuming an adult will go through it more. But I said, no, your age group is the statistically shows that you guys, you know, go through the depression and anxiety more than anybody. And I just kind of share with them like, look, you know, you're still young, this at an age where, you know, obviously you're still trying to figure it out, you know, trying to figure out if, you know, where you're going to go with school, college, next job, being accepted by friends, you know, social media.

As I've learned, social media with youth has been, the stories I hear from kids is actually, it's sad. Like, you know, it's really sad that, you know, a kid, they post pictures just to try to get accepted and they don't. that, you know, they want to harm themselves because they're not accepted. And it's that's saying. So I just try to tell my message to most people in the age room, was like, look, just live your life for you, be the best you, and live with your results. You're not going to please everybody. You're not going to make everybody happy.

You know, not to be blunt and not to be harsh, but, you know, we have to learn how to deal with adversity. You know, a lot of youth don't know how to deal with adversity. Me, for example, you know, at 20 years old, I got a hit with something. I didn't know how to deal with it. luckily now there's so much out there information, people, organizations trying to help and put the information out there to the kids so they can instill it. So I just try to tell kids, let's educate each other much as possible on mental health, the importance of it. There's a lot of times, you know, we spend so much time trying to work out and take care of our bodies

and do this stuff, but, you know, we've got to take care about mental first because that carries everything. It takes care of everything. So definitely, thank you for bringing that up because that is something that is dear to my heart, especially with you. their youth because I hear so many sad stories often, you know, get messages. And it's, you know, it's saddening. But hopefully with the most information and change that stigma of pushing positivity in our world, you know, I think that can just hopefully better things a little bit with that stat. Hopefully we can, you know, lower those numbers. And the positivity and the conversation is such a huge part of this. And I think an overlooked part because the level of

isolation people feel when they're in that state makes them feel totally alone in the world. And to know that someone else has gone through this, to know that they can find someone that they can open up to and not be looked at like they're crazy or something's wrong with them. And instead that they need help. And this is a natural part of learning how to deal with adversity is that you might get hit with something that you're just like totally knocked over by. And that doesn't mean you can't get up again. And also another thing too, I also always remember I should I had this conversation.

I say exactly everything we said just now, but also always mention to friends, hey, if you see a friend that's going through it, you know, it's not only just a person that's going through, but if you see a person struggling, you know, be there for them, ask some questions, you know, try to support them because, you know, don't be that person where you see somebody struggling,

you don't say anything, you don't try to help, you know, just try to be there for that person too. So, you know, it's definitely, you know, two-way street where it's, you know, because I think a lot of times, especially with that age group, the chance of them going straight to a counselor or to a doctor right away is probably slim.

most of times it starts where they're comfortable with their friends. So that's why I say friends are very, very vital on helping that person get to the point they can get professional help if it's needed. So that's why I try to stress the friends like, hey, you guys are so important in this process. Well, also that I think it's just so important that current athletes, former athletes, have such a vital role in this because they have up until now and continue to be perceived as these like untouchable, perfect people who just, are constantly performing and constantly focused and constantly on.

And to show the range of humanity, which does include emotions and does include a complex inner world and letting kids know that even if you're striving to be the best in whatever field it is, that you can have this experience and be okay. And that there are resources out there is really a message that needs to continue. I wonder, was there some moment that you decided to be public? about this or did it kind of happen for you? Because, you know, I think this is, you know, we see what happens when, you know, people like Meta World Peace, even people like Dennis Rodman, you know, back in the day when I think of how we, the public, treated Dennis Rodman, just even in his

eccentricity, you know, and the level of, you know, kind of media hysteria and ridicule that he experienced really for being himself. And yes, in very public and outrageous way. But I wonder, was there a moment where you thought, I should just go through this on my own and kind of like disappear and just let it, you know, fate. I got my wife. I got my kids. Like what made you decide to sort of advocate and really speak up,

especially it's hard to speak up, you know, when you're out. Meaning, you know, when you're in the NBA and something happens. And like, you know, like K Love and, you know, all these guys. like, yeah, that's super, super brave. But the decision to do that when you don't have that as like what's behind you, it must have been so complicated. I wonder what that was like and what made you decide to do that. Great question.

So what happened? I was kind of forced in that. But that forced, I made that. It was like a little bit of both. So what happened was back in 2014 or 15, I was playing in this basketball tournament. And Mark Berman from the New York Post, he actually covered me, but I was with the Knicks. he was doing an interview with me. And he was like, you know, it was one of those things.

We haven't seen you in years. You know, your career didn't go the way he wanted to go. And, you know, he was just like to start talking. And he's like, you know, just starts seeing all this stuff that was on the internet about me. That's not true. That was lazy. And that was this. And so people just wrote stories about me because they didn't know what was going on.

It was like, how can this guy go from this player in college to the NBA? It doesn't work out. And so people just wrote their own stories. And I kind of got tired of people writing my story. So I was like, look, You know, at this point, I don't care where it's going to get me. I didn't know what they expected. Still at that time, wasn't sure about the mental health conversation around 14, 15.

It was talked about, but not the way it is now. And so I was like, look, you know, during the time I was planning the NBA, suffered from depression, I was suicidal, you know, that stuff that was written about me. I was putting in bad situations and I just didn't have an outlet. I suffered from depression. I was suicidal. So that's that. That's what happened to me.

And he wrote this story, published it the next day. I happen to go on my Facebook page. And I got crazy amount of alerts. I'm like, what is happening? Because I didn't know he published it to that in the next day. Usually sometimes, right, say, hey, we're getting ready to publish a story. He didn't tell me he published it. So I'm like, what is happening?

So it was so much love and feedback. Oh, you're so brave. Thank you for telling me. I had no clue. Like, wow. And people's telling me their testimony, their stories. So I'm like, I wasn't like, wow. So at that point, I knew, you know, I knew what I was going through.

And I was struck that point, I was a lot better mentally. And I kind of felt like, wow, I wasn't long. Because during that time, I felt like I was different from everybody else. I felt like I was in a lone stratosphere, like I'm just this weird depressed guy. And it come and find out, like, wow, everybody at some point has reached depression, reached anxiety. No matter, I don't know, you know, every level is different. But at some point, somebody has reached that.

And I'm like, wow, I'm not alone. And that just gave me, like, this is my purpose for you in life. Like, obviously a basketball player. It's a stepping stone. But right now, just every day, literally that's my job. I go out to homeless shelters, you know, drug abuse centers, all that, and just, you know, share my story helping.

And I have, you know, a reoccurring place where I go every week where I visit people so they can see me and see that I care. This is what I do. And it's just been a great journey. But that was what kind of changed me to, remember that I meant that I changed. That's what made me make that decision. I was kind of forced because I got tired of people right. in my story, I was like, you know what, here it is.

This was what's going to happen. And it actually turned into a blessing. What was your father's name? Oh, Samuel Sweetney. What an honor to your father that you are. It's really, really inspiring. And it's just, it's such a pleasure and an honor to speak to you. Your journey is unbelievable.

And, you know, it's what you did with it that really, you know, honors his memory. So thank you so much. Thank you. And then the stories that I hear from people that he's working. with or come across, you're just like your father, you have no clue. Like, your father was a person that would get a shirt of his back. He always wanted to help people. He was always there for people. And that's just like, wow. Like, I'm living, I'm keeping his, you know, keeping his thing going. So that makes me proud. Thank you.

That's awesome. What a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you so much. No, thank you guys for Fasmsme. This has been awesome. I've met a lot of basketball players. Like, when I would go to the NBA All-Star Games and that whole thing like you'd be in the elevator with them and it was so exciting. I sat next to Michael Jordan. We were both interviewed. And if you haven't heard the Jaliel White episode, there is an amazing Carl Malone story in there. Go check it out. In any event, I mean, he was everything that I wanted an NBA player to be when you talk to them one on one. He just, he said all his feelings. What a fascinating guy. I just. And what amazing work he's doing in, you know, he didn't really champion how much he's out

there talking to people, being a motivational speaker, but he's out there on the front lines of really trying to make a difference in people's lives, and we just have to take our hats off to that. And I have to say, there's a particular passion that people who are driven by a religious or spiritual purpose tend to have, I have found, meaning this is someone who lost his beloved father, and he literally went through this. I mean, he went through how. Like he thought that he should die. Like he took pills so that he didn't have to wake up, you know?

And to turn that into, I'm going to get help. I'm going to do these things. And his wife is a tremendous support. I mean, that woman, that's its own episode. I would love to talk to that woman. There's a sense about, and I'm not saying that you have to be religious. That's not what this is about. But there's a sense about him that is like, I am going to transform this, this,

tragedy to literally make the world a better place one day at a time. Like not just by being healthy for yourself, for your kids, for the people who love you, but to put yourself out, I mean, oh, it makes me emotional to think that like he goes to homeless shelter. Like he, you know, that's what it means to like hit the pavement, you know? This is not just a public service announcement that he's doing, which is also great. I love when people do public service announcements. but this is a man who also has removed,

I really wanted to ask about this, but I was nervous. You know, he was both removed from the spotlight and also removed himself from the spotlight. And, you know, the part about like going to like this Jewish summer camp, right? Like for those of us who've been to those kind of like Jewish community things, like, I know what that was like for him. He was probably like, who are these people? Like, what's happening?

But he was embraced by a community that wanted him to succeed. and he seized on that, you know? He's got his job. He coach it. Like, I just, he just seems like a really, really kind person who's been through something so significant. I mean, I just find him so inspiring. It's so important to find those people who believe in us and who want us to succeed, the way that he talked about.

That faith someone had in him. Experience where someone had faith in him and he just, yeah, it meant so much to him. The saddest thing that I thought, which I also didn't say because it didn't feel like, it didn't feel appropriate to say to him. I don't know if the NBA knows how, or any real structure like that, knows how to have people who are struggling and vocal like that. Well, it's really hard because even when Paul George hit the back of the backboard, the side of the backboard in the bubble, and people are like, oh, he had talked about it.

And so it's almost, we'll be used to. Can you flesh that out a little bit? Sure. So Paul George had been struggling in the bubble. You know, Clippers had a very publicized meltdown, gave up a 3-1 lead to Denver, basically fell apart. And in one of those end games,

Paul George hits the side of the backboard, taking a... That's not a good thing for those of you. It is really off target. Yeah. And Paul George had been public about experiencing depression in the bubble. So what did everybody say?

Everyone says, great, be depressed, but don't hit the side of the backboard. Take your problems elsewhere. Don't mess up my game. Or you have to be a professional enough to compartmentalize and go out and do your job. Well, guess what? Mental health doesn't know. It's very, well, this is where I was getting to the compartmentalization. As Isaiah Thomas, for example, is very famous for having his sister had died and tragically, horrifically and he then went out that next day and played and sort of used that as his outlet and but I think that that intense compartmentalization and I'm not suggesting that

players shouldn't go out when they're having trouble like that's not possible but is that compartmentalization is that packing it away for that moment does that increase the tension that we're experiencing well and also what kind of expectation does that set up because Isaiah Thomas may have been able to do that, but Michael Sweetney may not have been able to do that. And what does that also say about our perception of sports figures, and yes, black men to say, I want you all to behave the way I want you to behave.

If you're having a hard time, I want it to make you a better player, right? So I'm going to say that that extrapolates to the corporate world. You know, I've had bosses say, oh, you're having a hard time, your marriage isn't going well. That's when I double down on work and I work 90 hours a week so that I don't have to think about it. people. Well, from what I've seen, it works until you crash and you can't compartmentalize

anymore. Japan is a fantastic example with the highest suicide rates, right, in the world. And intense, intense, intense culture of work productivity. A culture of put your stress into your work. Make your work your stress. So I'll say that it's not that it can't be done. It's not that it's not beneficial in some time, but it does set a dangerous precedent of not addressing the core issue and trying to power through. And I don't think powering through works all the time. To me, that's what Michael Sweetney was really, you know, helping flesh out. When and where are we allowed to have mental health problems? When is it acceptable to our bosses? When is it acceptable to our colleagues? When is it acceptable to our girlfriends, our friends? Well, he left the MBA to

really take his mental health seriously. And, you know, at that time, that was probably the right answer. He also faced terrible criticism for what happened to his body. And part of it which he's spoken about we didn't get into today is that he was eating. He was self-soothing, you know. And of course, all we see is, oh, he looks like a bus, you know, like, oh, no wonder he's. Anyway, it's, yeah. Ma'am, let's do an Ask Ma'am Anything. Okay.

Ask Myam Anything. Yeah. We're going to do a combo Ask Myam Anything that is brought to us by two different listeners. Jake asks, and I'm going to, I think you can merge these topics. So Jake asks, how do bring up topics of therapy with family and how to ask for help? And Julia asks, how do we help family members with mental illness issues? I see the underlying question being, how do we help bring up topics like therapy? And then how do we help people who are struggling?

Just so I can clarify, do you mean if someone else needs therapy or bringing up that you would like to go to therapy? The question doesn't specify specifically, but I think it's more, especially given this episode, it's more around if someone needs help, if you need help or someone else you know needs help, how do you start to bring up those questions and be supportive? I think in general when trying to figure out how to broach these kind of topics, one of my general guidelines is to use eye statements. because especially if someone's struggling, it's very, very hard to hear you this, you that, I'm noticing that you blah, blah, blah. So an eye statement is not, I'm noticing that you're a wreck, right?

An eye statement would be, I've been noticing that in our interactions, we're not connecting like we usually do. I'm noticing that we don't seem to do the same things that we used to do together. That's if someone is isolating. So I think trying to keep it about your experience of either missing or wanting to, you know, interact with the other person,

I think that's more powerful than sort of, as we say, reading them their inventory, saying, you're doing this, you're doing that, especially if it's someone who's struggling with alcoholism or, you know, addiction, saying, you drink too much, you know. That never goes well. That never goes well. And that should be remembered. So I think what I know from personal experience is you can't make anyone go to therapy.

It is something that that person does have to come to on their own. If someone is a danger to themselves or others, there's obviously a very different protocol. But part of what I'd like to advocate for is keeping the focus on yourself and your wellness when someone else is struggling. Meaning they still need to have their own process. And we don't know what someone's bottom is. You know, that's an expression we use in alcoholism. But we don't know what someone's emotional bottom is either. I have someone in my family who is really not, she's not in touch with me the way I'd like her to be.

But telling her that is not necessarily helpful. But saying to her, I miss our interactions. I miss being able to hear what's going on in your life. That's preferable to me saying, you seem to be isolating. You're not calling me. What's wrong with you? So I hope that that's generally helpful. That's a hard question.

It is a hard question. We'll take away eye statements, and we thank both our listeners and thank everyone so much for all the amazing questions that have been coming in. We got a lot to go. Biallickbreakdown.com.

BIA. L-I-K. Breakdown. Dot com, where you can ask Miami anything. Thank you. This was a really wonderful episode, and Jonathan, there's no one that I would have shared this episode with

more than you, a person who loves basketball and who loves me. mental health as much as I do. From my breakdown to the one I hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and Beallix Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph.D. or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down.