Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Oliver Hudson: Sibling Stressors, Love Languages & Ego Elimination

Episode Date: June 1, 2021

Oliver Hudson, actor and fellow podcaster, joins us to discuss the nuance and evolution of family dynamics and how he overcame feeling like the black sheep of his famous family with the help of a pillow and a wiffle ball bat. Together, Mayim, Jonathan, and Oliver examine the ways that they give and receive love in the context of their own upbringings and sensibilities. To round off their discussion, Mayim shares a bit about the neuroendocrinology behind relational differences between men and women. BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Am I fortunate? No doubt. Am I blessed? Am I as privileged as you could possibly get just being born into this family? 100%. But that doesn't detract from my emotional state. This idea that just because you have things, you cannot have feelings and want to express these feelings. That drives me crazy. Hi, I'm Myambiolic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down, so you don't have to.

It's My Ambialic's Breakdown. Today we're going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break... Today we're going to be speaking to Oliver Hudson. You may know him as an actor. You also may know him as the sibling of Kate Hudson, which also makes him the child of Goldie Hawn and his stepfather is Kurt Russell. Comes from a very interesting family.

He's a very fascinating person. And he and Kate have a podcast called Sibling. revelry. So we're going to be talking about siblings and we're going to be talking about love languages. We're going to be talking about some pretty radical therapy that has transformed his life. And we also talk about our siblings. It's a bigan. It's a big in. But first, let's say hello to my Superman in a super suit, Jonathan Cohen. Hi, I'm finally getting our super suits on. We're not matching exactly, but we're pretty close. It's supersuit day. For those of you who are listening, hello. And for those of you who are watching on my YouTube channel, Jonathan Cohen and I

choose to be Twinsies for every episode. And there was one day where we were kind of in a tiff and I didn't tell him what I was wearing. And he saw what I was wearing and then he went and changed. Like that's how committed he is to us being Twinsies. And today is Super Suit Jacket Day. And for those people in audio who do not know what a super suit is, usually it refers to a matching pant and jacket situation. Like a training suit that like all the hipsters wear. Like a track suit, which I call super suits. And it's a big deal because I've won Miam over after many years of her.

Thinking they're ridiculous. Well, mostly it's because I generally don't get dressed unless I need to. So anything like this that looks like adornment, it's just like it's very, I don't know, it's very fancy for me. Tell everyone what happened when we. went to the Nike store one time, and we were walking around the different outfits, and I was suggesting things for you to try on, just as, you know, before we got there, you were like, I am not buying anything. There's no way I'm buying anything. I will never wear this. But then we

were in the store, and I was like, why don't we just like pretend it's a fitting? Let's just see what it might feel like on your body. What did you say? No. The best part of our super suit story is that I was teasing you about wearing them. And then when my kids saw you in one, they were like, yo, Jonathan's really cool. Check out that super suit. It's like, that's it. It's over. So then you helped me choose for them super suits. And now when Miles needs new clothing of this arena, I literally ask, what should I get Miles? I trend really well with the, you know, 12 to 15 demo in my clothing choices. I'm sure it's not because you're a bit like a 12 to 15 year old.

That's what I'm saying. All right. Do we have any housekeeping, bookkeeping, zamboniing to do? Why don't we explain what love languages are for people who might not know because it comes up later in the episode. Okay. We'll kind of do it as like a Word of the Day. Word of the Day.

Word of the Day. Word of the Day. So love languages is something that was talked about in a book that's called The Five Love Languages by Gary Chapman with over 12 million copies. sold. It's been improving relationships for more than 25 years. And I'll be honest, I haven't read the book, but the, and I'm assuming I should, and we'll link to it just because we should. But the idea is that we, we as humans, operate under kind of five basic categories of needs. And they're not necessarily needs. They're the ways that you communicate best, love to someone else. Doesn't have to be a romantic

partner, but it's kind of the easiest way to think about it I've found. So you have a love language that you speak, but then you also have a love language that you understand. They're not always the same thing. For example, the love languages are words of affirmation, acts of service, receiving gifts, quality time, and physical touch. So words, acts, gifts, time, and touch. I'm sure you can already imagine that a lot of these, I'm sure that many people would argue it's cultural, but there also is a gendered aspect to some of these things. And that's not to say that there's a right or wrong way to do it, but I'm going to just give an example. I love to give acts of service. I like to cook for people. I like to clean for people. I like to do things for people. but not everyone feels loved when you do things for them.

So it's the way that I like to give love, but it may not be the way someone wants to receive it. And in addition, I'm not huge on people doing things for me. That's not necessarily my favorite way to receive love. So there's kind of two sides to it. So that's essentially what the love languages are that we're going to be talking about in a bit. And the episode's not about love languages.

We're doing this as the phrase of the day or the word of the day because it does come up and I think it's important to have a little bit of background. And we do talk about what our love languages are, except that no one asks me what mine are. The curious aspect of this episode. I'm going to be quiet and not comment on that at all. No, it's fine. I'm glad we know what yours and Oliver's are by the end of this episode.

Clearly, it's not introspection or question asking. I do like physical touch. I talk about that a little bit. I like to give acts of service. I do like to give and receive physical touch. That's one that works both ways for me. Also, it's really important just to be able to have clear communication, whether it's love languages or other types of communication. If you're communicating and it's not being received properly by the individual, it's not landing.

You're going to. Well, and also, I'll give one more example, since I clearly want to talk about my love languages, even though no one was really asking me. A lot of people think that women like gifts and flowers, and that I have found that that's true for almost every single woman I know. I'm just going to say it. It is not true for me. And I know my mother's listening thinking, that's because you don't deserve it. No, I mean, sometimes I think I don't deserve it. But everybody's different. So, you know, have I been with men who like getting flowers? No, hasn't been my experience. I'm sure there are men that like flowers. And some men like gifts and some men don't. But I'm just letting you know, letting everyone know, not a flowers person, not really a gifts person.

And people are like, oh, well, she's rich. She can buy everything for herself. It's not because of that either. Can I have my love language be receiving super suits? Yes, I'll buy you a super suit. I'm going to tell people about Oliver Hudson right now. Oliver Hudson most recently starred opposite Jenna Fisher in splitting up together. He has starred opposite David Spade and Petter.

Warburton in Rules of Engagement, which was produced by Adam Sandler. He's had recurring roles on a bunch of shows. And his sibling revelry with Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson and Daddy Issues with Joe Buck and Oliver Hudson are two of the most popular and talked about podcasts. He has other credits. He was in Medal of Honor, a bunch of things. And it's really exciting to welcome Oliver Hudson. Break it down. Thank you.

Thank you. excited to be here. We're excited to talk to you. So there's many things that I'd like to ask you for many reasons. And, you know, one of the things that I'm very interested to hear from you is sort of like why you choose to talk about the things you talk about. Because obviously Jonathan and I have, you know, started a podcast about mental health. So we choose to kind of like tell all of our things and, you know, kind of like muddle through all of our mess, you know, with guests who share with us, whatever they muddle through. I actually think the mental health topic is, a complete foil and it just allows us to talk about anything because you can really ladder it all

back. As our resident scientist, I will say it does all ladder back. But tell us a little bit about your podcast and sort of how you decided to start it and why and yeah, sort of what those decisions are like about what to talk about. Yeah, with sibling revelry, you know, my sister and I had never worked together on anything. We had an interesting tumultuous up. We had an interesting, tumultuous bringing. We were not friends for a long time. We existed in each other's orbits, but we were not connected in any way. I didn't feel like I even had the emotional capacity to be a brother for her just because I was dealing with my own shit, you know, with my dad and my stepdad and my mom, you know, being a movie star and being away. I retreated into a bit of a shell. And only after sort of

college and once I got a little bit older, were we able to connect and really get to know each other the way that we should. And, um, you know, cut to we wanted to do something together. And the podcast medium was blowing up and it was just a really easy way to sort of be in the same room and talk about our feelings and really explore the idea of the sibling relationship, you know, because it's, it's an extremely important one and one that I think is under explored. You know, we are with our siblings more than we are with our parents. I mean, we commiserate with our siblings more than we do with anybody else. There's a connection there that can run deep and can also be extremely afraid.

And sometimes it's worse than having no real relationship with your parents. I mean, that sibling bond is important. You have to lean on each other in hard times. and when it's not there it can get rough. And we just wanted to get into that world. And in getting into that world, Katie and I were able to sort of even get to know each other a little bit better. And it's funny because I am able to be more honest with her and how I feel about her when I've got this stupid microphone in front of my mouth. I totally get it.

No, I totally get it. It's so strange. It is very strange, but I get it. Yeah, I mean, my vulnerability level goes up. when I've got this in front of my face and I'm able to say, well, yeah, I mean, this is the way that you have made me feel in the past or, you know, this is how I feel about you now. So it's been really great for us. Jonathan and I talked a bit about sort of how to approach, you know, different aspects of a conversation with you because... By the way, I'm an open, open book. I know, I know.

But there's a lot about your life that's been very public because, you know, you grew up in a house with fame. And I'm very interested in that because, you know, I'm a public person and I'm raising kids and it's like very strange. And they don't really watch me on TV, which I don't really want them to, but I don't know if they should because like their perception of the world is very strange because they finally realized like, oh, you're kind of like a famous person and it's weird. Anyway, so I was thinking about that. And also so much of your family life has been exposed in ways that many people's lives are not exposed, you know. And the things that happened in your family, you know, having a mixed family. a blended family and having a stepdad who also is a very prominent person and, you know, kind of all those dynamics, these are things that in different ways happen to a lot of people, meaning there are a lot of blended families, there are a lot of cases of bio-parents not being around or some people are adopted by a step-parent and some are not, you know, all this stuff. But you've kind of had to live it out publicly. But for people who kind of don't know, can you just give us the two-minute thumbnail sketch of kind of what it was like growing up

and sort of also the ages you and your sister were, you know, when a lot of these changes happened. My parents divorced when I was about five, Kate was three, four and two, five and three. You know, if people don't know, my mother's goalie Han and my stepdad is Kurt Russell. There was a moment of about two years where mom was dating and it was just us.

And then Kurt came into our lives and changed everything, honestly. But it was not easy. I mean, it definitely was not an easy thing. Especially being in the public eye, it was an unconscious situation because I wasn't old enough to understand it. But I do remember not liking when people would approach my mother. Yep, that's my kids. Oh, God, it would drive me crazy.

We're at dinner and these people are coming up. And I'm like, just get the fuck away. Please leave us alone. I mean, that was my internals. And also for people who may be listening who don't know, your mother was extremely famous. Exactly, right. And also, it's not just like, oh, you think like, oh, influencers. And like, she was and is.

I mean, she's a movie star. And being a movie star is very different than being a TV star. So we're talking also about even before social media, before all these things, we're talking about like the highest level, literally, of notoriety at a time when there were no barriers. And that's when the paparazzi, too, only had they had, you know, seven or eight people to hit up. So they knew where you were. I mean, we would, I remember every time we would go to an airport, right, we would get off the airplane and everything seemed to be normal. And then out of nowhere, you had 15 photographers jump out in front of you.

The flight attendants used to call media services to let them know who was on the plane. And that's how people found out. I will say, though, that within the four walls, you know, I'm jumping at. head. But when Kurt came into our life, it was incredible. I mean, he made me the man that I am today. No doubt about it. We went to Colorado and that changed my life as well. Just learning independence, not being so attached to my mother, being okay, being alone, knowing how to get myself out of situations where normally I wouldn't have been able to. And just nature, being in nature really soothed me and grounded me. And Kurt is the one who brought me to that place. We lived a normal

life within our four walls. It sounds crazy, but it's just the way it was. I mean... And he didn't have children, correct? Kurt did not have children? Kurt did. Kurt had one kid, Boston, who's my stepbrother. Okay, got it. So did you all grow up together? Yes, we all grew up together. He had his mother, and there was sort of a back and forth there, you know, and then at the same time, Kurt was dealing with my dad and how that all sort of was playing out and actually there was once there's a story and it's a moment that i'll never forget you know there was a time when dad was supposed to pick us up we had our little suitcases he came to the house for whatever reason shit blew up he left and it was that after-school special moment of like it's your fault mom it's all your fault and then kurt

took us aside and he said okay here's the thing no matter what happens with your mother and i i will be here for you if we leave each other tomorrow i am going to be the man in your life forever i don't want you to call me kurt i don't want you to call me dad because i'm not your dad we got to figure out a name and that's how we came up with pa so we call him pa that's what we call him it was tough but i am who i am because of of all of it now and I've been in therapy for 20 years. I went to a place called the Hoffman Institute, which was the most influential, amazing life-changing experience for me

when we're talking about sort of mental health. Honestly, I'm dealing with it right now. I'm in a bit of a low spot and I don't quite know why. I'm going off of my Lexa Pro, I was on 20 milligrams and I'm weaning off and I'm at 2.5. I don't know if that's contributing to it. You know, so I just, I ebb and I flow, And I try to just go with it.

So, yeah, if we can unpack that a little bit. So you said you've been in therapy for 20 years. And when was the Hoffman Institute? And can you tell us a little bit about that experience? That was two years ago. It was two years ago. And I was just in this place of repeating patterns, you know, repeating these patterns that I just could not get out of. I didn't like myself.

I didn't like that I was doing some of these things that I was doing and wasn't able to stop them necessarily. I didn't feel in control. And I had a friend who went and heard about it. I said, you know what? I'm going. And I just, you know, made the appointment and went. And that was two years ago. And it was really.

Do you stay there? Yeah, you stay there for seven days. It's up. It's, there's one in Napa. That's the, well, St. Helena. And, you know, your phone goes away. all vices go away, everything. I mean, no books, no music, you're not supposed to run or do yoga or anything.

Jonathan, are you taking notes and packing your bag? We're sending you there. I have my notebook. The idea is that even if you're on the floor doing downward dog, you are still masking something. You know what I mean? They want to sort of strip you. And the whole concept is just the patterns. It's the repeating of patterns from your childhood.

You don't have to answer this. Did you have a thing you put down? Did you have a substance you put down? There was no, I was never into, you know, I mean, I drank or I smoked my weed or whatever. No, I didn't. That was nothing, it was nothing there for that. It was, you know, you can smoke cigarettes. You know, you're allowed to do that, I guess, over there, you know.

But, yeah, no, I didn't have to put anything down like that. It wasn't, that part wasn't that difficult for me. but it took a minute, it took a minute to get into sort of, to really break free of my, from myself. I was so wrapped up in my image in a way and what people are going to think about me. And some of the things that you do there require like the ultimate vulnerability and just letting go. And I finally had my moment and it was just gnarly. I mean, it was really a gnarly, gnarly moment for me. And from that moment on, I was able to really experience.

experienced this process in its fullest. I'm just curious, like, is it therapy-based? It's talk therapy. Are you all silent? Do you meditate? Like, you know? It's like a mashing of all of it. You know, I mean, I think the foundation of it is sort of cognitive behavioral therapy.

That's what it felt like to me. But the whole concept is sort of this idea that you have taken on these patterns from your parents and now you are living these patterns that you have sort of adopted. And it's really getting into your life and getting into your childhood and getting into your parents and understanding where you came from and why you do the things that you do. And then ultimately having the most complete forgiveness and true deep compassion for your parents, no matter how much they screwed you up because nine times out of ten they were going through situations themselves sure hurt people hurt yeah so yes it's that there was forms of meditation there was guided meditation there was you know

sort of primal therapy in a weird way it was like 30 something 30 something people 38 40 people did you know them or they're just strangers no this is that's so weird oh it's so weird it's so weird it's so weird. Like they, I don't want to give too much away because you're not supposed to to. No, and I'm trying to be delicate about it. Yeah. No, no, no, no. But I mean, I want to tell you all about it. But there was one, I will say this, there's one exercise on like the second day where they've got a pillow and you've got a wiffle ball bad. Now. That's where I had my breakthrough because I'm like, what the hell is this? I look like a fool. What am I doing? Like I, and I couldn't get out of my head. And everyone is there like, yeah.

And I'm like looking at these people and passing passing the ultimate judgment on them. Like these people are so crazy. And then I decided to do it my way. Okay. So I and that was a lesson on its own, right? I wasn't going to do it the way that everyone else is doing it. I got quiet while everyone was crazy. I went deep into my soul.

I went into a place of my mother, how amazing she is, but also how she wasn't. there at times and I just slowly started to feel it and drop into that place. And then I was able to fully express myself physically and emotionally and totally lost my shit. How long did that last with the wiffle ball that? Oh, God, like 15, 20 minutes or something like that. Oh, no, that's a long time. I couldn't do that. I'm proud of you. I don't want that. But that stuff is stuck in us. And I was wondering, Oliver, like, were you shocked at the emotion that came up? And were you like, holy shit, I've been holding all of that.

Oh, so much, so much. I can't even tell you. Like, you know, I had to leave actually once we were done and continue to just lose it on my own. And just I was sobbing and heaving and, you know, it was crazy. I mean, it was really, really crazy. and you form a real bond with these people because everyone is going through their own stuff and you're discovering love on a different level.

I know it sounds a little crazy, but when you're able to be that open and raw with people, you know, you can accept love and give love much easier. And that's the biggest thing that I got out of Hoffman. You know, with my wife, with my mom, with my parents, with my sister, I am able to sort of even receive their love more. I had to deflect compliments, deflect when people love me. And I would also not be able to tell my wife or my mom how much I love them and what they

mean to me because it was too scary for me. Because when we're carrying around that level of emotion, we're protecting ourselves from feeling it. We're disconnected from the fact that it exists. So the amount of energy we have to spend deflecting and protecting ourselves, we can't really engage fully emotionally with so many. people. Mime's looking at me just shaking her head. No. I'm not having it.

You also store so much of that emotion within your body. Oh, do you? Tell us, Oliver. That comment is at me. That's for Jonathan. My and Bialik's breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water.

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get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how. you heard about them, make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. You had this experience of like, you know, something that like I said, I think of in my own kids and I'm not your mom. But, you know, just thinking about that level of kind of like intrusiveness. And I remember my younger son in particular, like he didn't even like if people came up to me because it felt like I was his.

You know, especially when he was little and he was a super late talker. So he didn't have also like the words to get into it. He hated when I was in hair and makeup, when I had to do red carpets, he hated it. And when he was a baby, he didn't even want, he wouldn't hold me. Like, he wanted me to take my makeup off. He would say no clown, no clown. You know, it doesn't feel great either. But he would say no clown.

You're like, this clown pays for your education kid. No, but like, no, this is what he was very tiny. But so I would, you know, and I don't feel like that's my kid telling me what to do. But like, yeah, I would come home. I would, you know, take my makeup down and like shake my hair. out a little bit and just look like shitty mom again. And then, you know, that's how he knew me. Because I was home with them also just as, you know,

shitty looking mom for the first years of their life. But then I'm thinking about what it must have been like then to grow up and have then your sister, like, have this career. Because I just think of what I have a brother four years older than me. And by the time I was on Blossom, this show that I did when I was a teenager, he had already moved out. You know, he was, you know, I started acting. technically a late bloomer. He was in high school when I started acting and had a very active

and interesting social life and he was academically like the best and he was like an amazing artist. And like I always saw him as like the celebrity of the house, you know. But then I, you know, I obviously became this public person. And so, you know, a lot of people assume like, oh, that must have been so hard on him. And I think like, well, he was out of the house. But even still, I'm wondering what it was like for you. Because it's not just that you had like a sibling who became, you know, this kind of like larger than life persona. it's like, I mean, I'm maybe completely just like projecting and thinking, but you, you must, and you are a person and a performer and a talented, fabulous person in your own right, but especially to be surrounded by these women who are like, like, that's a lot. It's a lot. And I just imagine, like, it might have felt like you're like this island. Like, you keep like kind of losing people, you know, because both your mom and Kurt and, like, you know, it's like everyone had this elaborate outside. world of engagement and interest and adventure and also like, you know, praise and money and

fame and, you know, like, can you articulate that? Your spot, spot, spot on. I mean, that was, I still work through that. You know what I mean? I'm working through it. I'm not even part of your family. Like, I'm having to go to therapy to deal with what it's like to be a Hudson. Well, well, just going back to even the first thing which you're talking about,

that you talked about with your son. and how he wants you to take your makeup off and just be shitty mom, you know. I have so many memories of that as well. You know, I didn't love when she was not with me. I thought that people were taking her away from me. That's what it was. You know, I was like, this is my mother,

and you are taking her energy away from me. And then I have a couple, I have one story that still freaks me out to this day. It was like a horror film. Not for me, contextually, but I was like a kid, and her stand-in looked just like her or her stunt person. So on this particular movie, it was called Protocol. I was probably eight or nine years old, and I would go to set. Because we were on set with her all the time, and we grew up on sets.

We were tutored, and she took us wherever she went for the most part, you know. But this one movie, her. stunt person or as her standing, I'm not sure, looked exactly like her, and I would go up and hug her legs and look up and be like, oh shit. I mean, this was... That is like a horror film. Oh, it was traumatizing. And then unpacking what you just said about my sister and my family and the fame that they have. I mean, this is real. I mean, this is extremely real for me, even though in my own right, I'm a success. There's no doubt about that. But as far as... you know, again, context, looking at my family, I'm the black sheep, you know, I'm like

trying to sort of be something for them or I need to be perceived as on their level or whatever it is, but there's definitely jealousy inside of me. There's no doubt about that. There's envy and then that can lead to sort of just me being down on myself. Right. And this is a lot that I've definitely worked on. And of course, with my sister, but even my brother, Wyatt, you know, Wyatt was a hockey player, and he's one of my best friends. He's 10 years younger than me. He is just one of the great human beings of all time. And I've expressed this to him even because I'm very open about it. But, you know, he just immediately, boom, hits the acting world and just takes off. He's at Sundance for two movies. He's doing this. He's doing that. Now he's Captain America.

And, you know, everyone loves him. And he's an incredible actor and working with amazing directors. And And I have this thing that just bubbles up inside of me. And it's not an easy thing to wrestle with. So, yeah, it was tough. And honestly, it led to a major breakdown for me in my mid-20s. So what this might look like, and I do know you've spoken about anxiety, you've spoken about depression, which honestly, there's many aspects, you know, I think of your story that many of us could see. I'm also going to guess like a tremendous amount of self-criticism. And for me, what would happen would be an obsessive rumination over what is it about them?

Am I enough? Basically like you, I don't mean to make it worse, but you grew up in a giant ego challenge. Meaning, what are you worth? Who gets the most attention? is there enough to go around and what's left over for Oliver? Right. 100% self-inflicted. Yeah.

Because there was absolutely no pressure. There was no expectation. There was no, oh, you need to be totally self-inflicted. Okay. Self-inflicted, yes, but also just organic. Like that's like how could that not happen, you know? and especially, you know, to be a teenager, like, it's, there's so much to that. I mean, it's.

But let me ask you a question. Do you think it's circumstantial, though? Meaning because of how I grew up and because of my just body chemistry, I am more susceptible to feeling this way, whereas my brother or Kate doesn't really have that. I mean, I'm the one who, you know. Yeah. I think that, you know, when we talk about what causes things and how we get things, yeah, It's a super duper combination of some genetic predisposition, and we're all different and beautiful.

We're all the colors of the rainbow. It's just self-esteem, too. You know, it's like when my dad left and I needed that male in my life and then Kirk came in, but he was, but my dad then sort of was there for a minute and then completely disappeared. You know, I think that obviously had played with my self-esteem, not socially, strangely, but in my career. It's funny because I think about that I'm. divorced and we happily co-parent. We've been divorced, gosh, for almost a decade, I guess. Yeah. And I always think about like, what's it like, you know, if he meets people, not even necessarily in a dating situation, but just like that moment when people find out that his ex-wife is me. So I think about, like, I think

about, you know, your dad and like the moment that like you find out that your ex-wife is with Kurt Russell, you know, because also for people who made it. Like, like, you know, like, you know, like, you know, like he was a very big deal. Like he, I mean, he is a very big deal. But I'm saying like, they're one of also those like Hollywood power couples that like,

everyone looks too. You know, like it's a very like iconic, you know, Hollywood relationship. So I also think about just like the dynamics of all of it. And I think about it for me too. Like I went on Bumble once.

You know, it was weird. But I think about that like there's a point when people realize like, oh, oh my God, you're that person. And then yeah, I think.

I think, you know, I have dated, you know, in the years since I've been divorced. And, yeah, like, when people are like, oh, I'd like to set you up with someone, he has two kids and their teens. And I'm like, but I'm on the Big Bang Theory. And their children, like, I just like, that's so, it's so weird to me. And it's just one of the things that as divorced humans, we all have to deal with. No, no, but you make a great point. I think many people might sort of listen to this or already be like, this is a weird Hollywood, you know, elitist first world conversation. but, and as I'll talk about in our conclusion also, what you and I are talking about is a very specific circumstance that highlights an incredibly universal human experience.

And that is one of ego. That's one of where do you fit in your family? And that's true even if you don't have a sibling. And it's one of is there enough to go around? And that notion of scarcity is what leads many people to be anorexic, either with food, with sex, with love, with money. that scarcity mindset or the fear of scarcity, which again can be completely, like you said, generated by our own chemistry, our own experience,

our own interpretation, our own perception. That's universal. So while it is fascinating to talk about specifically your family, like these are things that they happen in every family. But it's also very universal to say, how do those first traumas, first wounds impact us? You know, a father leaving? Like, that sticks with us.

It's funny you say that because I've had this issue recently with as someone who is a celebrity or someone, you know, who seemingly has everything, okay? I mean, you got a strong jawline. We're very jealous of your jawline. Anyone who's listening on audio and not seeing the video right now, you've got to pop over to the YouTube channel. It's got beautiful eyes. He's got a big head of hair. It's got broad shoulders. Oh, now he's, now he's showing off.

He took the hat off. But what I'm saying is that we're not allowed to have problems. You know, again, I've seen comments and stuff, oh, you know, who are you to say this? And how could you feel this? Because you grew up like this and you're a celebrity or you have this. I'm like, look, am I fortunate? No doubt. Am I blessed?

Am I as privileged as you could possibly get just being born into this family? 100%. But that doesn't detract from my emotional state. I can still have hundreds of millions of dollars and be this and have houses and be lucky and still be totally fucked up. Not that I'm those things, but this idea that just because you have things, you cannot have feelings and want to express these feelings that drives me crazy. I just want to speak to that also because I do think it's important to acknowledge that

while we do have feelings, people who otherwise seem to have it all or other, you know, I do want to acknowledge that we also have ability to get help in ways that people often do not. And I, and I think that's very important to acknowledge. And that's sort of literally why Jonathan and I started this podcast is we believe that mental health and information about yourself is a human right. It's not something for the elite. It's not something for people who have the right insurance or whose carrier is, you know. So I just want to say that also that I think we all, would acknowledge that the level that we're talking about is such that we are human and we have all the same feeling mental health does not discriminate but the fact that you have the ability let's

say to go to the Hoffman Institute or that we have the ability to to have experimental therapies and alternative things and go to shamans or you know get medication or or even have access to a therapist is something that most people do not have access to. Great point. Great point. I'm I'm honestly glad that you brought that up on us because that sort of plays into sort of how I reconciled with my dad as well because his dad left him when he was five years old, literally in the middle of the night. He didn't have the opportunity, the resources, or even the toolbox to live a life that he probably could have.

So who knows what would have happened, you know, if he was able, afforded those resources. Right. So yes. And he left at that same time in your life? Was that also like, so it's interesting how those patterns are like literally, almost verbatim. I mean, he divorced mom when I was five, but he actually was, it was good until I was like 12 or so, you know, and then it just took a hard right turn.

You know, I don't know what happened. About siblings, you were talking about how you're more, and Miam immediately shakes her head, but he brought it up at the beginning of the interview. Myam and I both have complicated relationships with our siblings. And so at the pre-interview, a podcast interview, she was like, we're not talking about siblings. We're not going there. And I'm like, how are we having him on? And we're not going to talk about siblings. I can't wait. No, I think that, you know, everyone these days, you know, who has a, you know, an Instagram page and a public persona, which my brother's not a public person,

but he is a person who exists. So I try and be very delicate when I talk about him because he has a life and he has an identity. But I will, what I will say about both Jonathan and a sister, he's the baby, and I have a brother, I'm the baby. What I will say, for very different reasons, is that Jonathan and I both have a limited ability to have communication with our siblings. And I would say a limited ability maybe to communicate the way that we thought we would

when we were kids. Is that safe to say, Jonathan? Yes. I'm shaking my head sort of like in a bubbly yes and no. Limited ability, I mean, is the actual, like, just an emotional limited ability physical? I mean, what is that? How do you...

For me, it's a conversation that is not open. Not because of his choice. Meaning I don't have access to a lot of information about, really, you know, and it's been like that, you know, since I'm about 19. So yeah. So I've, you know, I've had a very, very different kind of life as someone who was very, very close to my sibling and, you know, have lived essentially as an old. only child, you know, since I'm 19. Jonathan, do you want to talk a little bit about your situation?

Yeah, I have unlimited access to my brother, but he has a little bit, he has not the full capacity. He was injured severely and was left with a traumatic brain injury. When they were both teenagers, yeah. When he was 17, I was 14. And he was the guy I looked up to. He was like, just super athletic and sort of everything that I saw. I was like, I just want to be. that whatever he's doing, I want to do. And then he was left with, yeah, the prognosis for him was actually that he would never walk, talk, or recognize family again. He would be living as a vegetable. And he is a, honestly, he's a miracle because he downhill skis and he. Wow. He recognizes all of you. He recognizes us and, you know, he has language impairment and he has memory impairment and he still has

physical impairment. But he is a miracle. He's a miracle. But he's, you know, he did. 25 years of rehab. He's the hardest working guy you've ever met in your entire life. He's also the most optimistic guy you've ever met in your life. Yeah. Anyway, so we both have very complicated relationships with our siblings. So doing this podcast is the closest that Jonathan and I get to working out, honestly, a lot of our own, you know, family complexity. So I think that's also why it's kind of exciting to talk to you because like, you know, you're actively engaging in a way that, I mean, honestly, I think both of us wish that we could, you know. I mean, my brother and I would do, I'm sure, an amazing podcast.

Just never going to happen. And you and your brother, I mean, that's a podcast I would listen to. I mean, we're talking about having my brother on. But when you were talking about your sister and starting to work together, you said you could sort of open up to her and sort of like say how she made you feel at a certain time. I was thinking about like my brother, you know, we fought like crazy. We had, you know, I was a tiny little runt and he was like just had a lot of anger. And so that ended up not great for me in many ways.

And so over the years, we've had to try to reconcile it. But I was wondering if you would sort of maybe get more specific about, you know, times where you sort of were working out issues with Cade and if you want to go there or not. Yeah. No, for sure. I mean, the thing is, Kate, Katie was always and still is just a very strong woman. I was never a protector because she just didn't need protecting. Honestly, actually, that's not fair. That's not fair.

She probably did. I just don't think that I was ready to do it or could do it, you know? It was just, I didn't, I couldn't love her the way that I probably should have wanted to back then for whatever reason. And she needed me. That's the part that makes me sad, especially when we were kids. I was the man, even though I was a boy, but I was the male figure in her life that, she needed and she expressed that through her actions wanting to be in my room, just wanting to be near me and I would just, you know, push her away. Yeah, we don't appreciate that when y'all do that.

My brother used to say that I breathed too loud when I was around him. And so he would say if you breathe more quietly, you can be, you can hang out with me. That's somebody knows. It's funny just is I have two kids. I have three kids. So I have two boys and my little girl. And now whenever my boys give her crap. I go into this like psychological mode of this unconscious insanity of like, don't you dad to her.

It's like I'm yelling at myself as a seven-year-old boy. How's that working for you, Oliver? How's it working for you? I, this is why I'm in therapy. So many reasons. Those are the patterns because often we talk about patterns and it's not clear to the audience. It's like, what are you talking about patterns if you've never sort of uncovered that something from so long ago presents in a way that you're like, Like, we don't even realize why we're motivated to be so protective.

So it's really important to understand those things. Yeah. And then it's also just understanding that Katie and I are two just different people. I mean, there's the center. There's the guts of us that are the same. You know what I mean? There's humor. There's sort of the way that we look at life.

But we raise our kids totally differently. We have different personalities. She has to sort of accept me and I accept her. There are moments where it gets contentious. There's no doubt. I had a six-week period where we were in a bit of a tiff, you know. And that just happens. I think it's just communication, though.

It's as long as we can talk about it and tell each other why we're not liking each other in that moment, then we're okay. Also, I have a question, and this is, I would ask this even if your sister wasn't, you know, who she is. And I'm sure this is something she's spoken about, but she's also done her own work, meaning you are two people. who have, you know, different ways to go about it. But that's also an important piece here is that you have a partner in her. Well, we have the same therapist. We literally have the same therapist. Check this out.

Check this out. Not only to Katie and I have the same therapist. My mother, me, Wyatt. But it wasn't like an accident. You didn't like look in the phone book. Like you all, that's amazing. Okay. But in any event, even if you didn't have the same therapist,

which is adorable. The fact that you are speaking with someone who has a vocabulary for talking about these things, connecting with these things, that's a huge important part because I'm sure we'll get a lot of questions of people who are like, my, whatever, won't speak to me. You're like, I can't talk to him without wanting to kill him. You know, what you're dealing with is you've both done a lot of work separately and you choose to also do a certain amount of work together. Mm-hmm. Yes. Oh, without a doubt. You know, and a lot of it, too, is me. It's just me being, vulnerable and being able to tell Kate how what I feel and which for men is not and for men that doesn't come as naturally especially in our culture so yeah it does not it really doesn't and and you know

Kate's tough I don't want her to like kill me so if I'm like Kate I really don't like the way that you did this and I don't want her to be like god damn it and I'm like I'm like I just don't want to rock the boat is she is she like your mom or your dad or curt like who are you both like most that's a good question. You know, it's funny is Kurt being the non-bio parent. We're so much like him. Yeah. I mean, really, it's, I find myself, you know, some speech patterns, the way that I think, the way that I parent, a lot of it is from Kurt. And is it, so is she more like your mom would you say? Yes, she's like my mom, but she's like her, too. Kate's tough, man. Kate is tough. With her kids, too. Like, she's much more strict

than I am with, than, I mean, to the point where I'm like, Kate, just relax. Let them go do this. They're boys. Let them fall. Let them get hurt. Everything's going to work out. You know, she can be tough. There's a John Mullaney joke.

And it's definitely true, I think, as a Jewish joke. But it works as a female joke also. He's like, the thing about dating a Jewish woman is, you never need to wonder what they're thinking, because they tell you. Like, I never don't know what she's, she walks in the room and she's like, this happened, that happened, this hurts, this person died, like, I feel angry, I'm going away, like, yeah. That's my mother.

My mom, when you get on the phone with my mom, there is no hello. Right. It's like, I get on the phone, I'm like, you know, I call mom and she picks it up. She goes, so we're here at the desert and we just had some lunch and I shot a 45. I'm like, literally, not even a hello. And that's not even an exaggeration at all. It's right into what I'm doing. I think it's not only true of Jewish women, although it works very well for John Mullaney, because it's a whole joke about what it's like to date a Jewish person. But no, but I think

that is true. Again, supergendered, you know, conversations, super culturally, you know, specific conversation. But there also is a biology, you know, to women having a different kind of social structuring, a different kind of linguistic structuring, like that's science and it's real. And also, I really feel for all the men out there, this might be, popular with certain kinds of women. But I do feel for the men out there because we have a culture that's now demanding that you be very present. We want you like super involved.

We want you to make the lunch, but also make it the way I tell you to for the kids. You know, like, be involved, but be involved the way I want you to be. And then also be really emotional. Only want to have sex when I want to have sex. Don't be upset if I don't want to have sex. Like, it's a very specific role for men. Also express all of your emotions, but don't insult me. Don't say anything negative about me necessarily.

Or if when you do express your emotions, make sure you do it in a way that's appropriate. Right. Express all of your emotions, but only the ones that are positive and reflect positively on me. Exactly. That is amazing. Yeah. So anyway, so I feel for the men out there because it's true. Like, my dad, did I ever see my father make a meal?

No. And my parents were together for 53 years. I never saw him go to the supermarket. Like he never did laundry. Like it wasn't even a thing. And honestly, it worked for them. But like men these days, you have to do all the things, but also still do all the man.

Like it's a lot. And it's a lot for women, too, because we're also asked to work, but also still take care of the children and clean the house and be available for sex also. Yes. Well, everyone, everyone's screwed. It's just impossible. But you know what? The five, the five love languages, you know, that book?

What's your love language, Oliver? My love language is physical touch for sure. Okay. Without a doubt. Wait, hold on. We're going to go around the room. Jonathan, what's your love language? Oliver, what are the choices?

Physical touch. Yeah, what are the choices? I forget now. I did it a while ago. Yeah, there's physical touch. There's acts of service. There's quality time. I love when someone helps me out and does something.

Oh, so you want someone else's love language to be acts of service. So acts of service. acts of service is phenomenal i'm like yo help out see that i have that crossed i'm like oh if it's helpful for me to get help i will also i'll like try to find out what that person needs and i'll be like i can do that for you no problem and and that should make you super happy because like look how much i'm doing right but jonathan i don't give a shit about that i need you to touch me so you can do all those acts of service for me but i don't care just rub my back man right so And this is one of my favorite things about love languages and also just human relationships in general.

When you expect that the other person will love you the way you want to be loved is where most relationships break down. Because wanting the other person to do what you want is actually called an extreme form of narcissism. Love me the way I love. So like I'm going to bring you flowers, therefore you must bring me flowers. That actually doesn't. That's my favorite example. Like women who are like, I want flowers, right? Okay, but he doesn't want flowers.

He wants whatever he wants, right? Right. Well, that's the sacrifice that you kind of have to make. Like, my love language is physical touch. Correct. Aaron. Aaron does not, it's literally the last on her list. What does she want?

Acts of service. She wants service, right. Oh, God, if I'm vacuuming or if I'm doing the dishes or if I'm cleaning, I'm getting laid. There's just no doubt about it. It literally turns her on. Not even, she's like, oh, my God. You know, whereas if she does that for me, it's like, oh, okay, cool.

I guess the house is clean. Who cares? But anyway, we try to live by that a little bit, and it kind of works. Yeah, I like the love languages. It's important to just get the lines clear. Otherwise, you're just thinking, you're doing all this effort and not understanding why it's not resonating with the other person. It's totally fine that no one has asked me what my love language is. What is your love language?

No, I'm not answering. And let's move on. I want to know what you're. She wants compliments? I don't want compliments. You want gifts. I don't want gifts. No.

No. Acts of service? But hold on. She doesn't want gifts. But when I bought her a jumpsuit, it was the best thing she's ever gotten. That was the best. That was literally the best gift. I mean, it was very, very spousy.

He bought, yeah, it's very snazzy. So wait, what is it? I got to know now. I'm a physical touch person, which I think a lot of people are surprised to know. I'm a physical touch person. I'm a quality time person. I'm a quality time person. Those are my two.

Yeah. Look at us. Dang. Yeah. I mean, acts of service are definitely important. And my last boyfriend was a carpenter, which was really amazing and beautiful. And he was a wonderful artist. And there was a lot of acts of service in there, which I think was his love language.

Not so much mine. That's a different story. And to me, to me, words of affirmation, that is important to me, but not actually in the form of like a traditional compliment. Jonathan is a writer and a poet, and that's like my favorite thing. He's not. He shakes his head and says, no, but that's like one of my favorite things. Like every note that he writes, like even just like a little note, I really cherish it,

like everything about it. You know, it's so interesting, though, is because we had the author on our podcast with my sister. What? You're so fancy. We're fancy. Wow. But I didn't realize that he had other books. And he has the five love languages for.

children. Stop. That is amazing. It's amazing. And I never even thought about it because I love my kids the same way physically. And my oldest is a little squirmy and he's a little sensitive touch-wise. And I'm like, oh my God, that's not his love language. So I've been shifting a little bit. Okay. That's amazing. You said that because I'm a mom of two boys and I'm a divorced mom, which means I'm in my house, you know, with these humans. And I tend to be, I tend to be, I tend to be very boyish female, meaning like, I'm the one who wrestles with them. Like, I'm, like, we talk about sports cars. Like, I'm more into sports, I think, than my children. And these are all completely like, gendered. Like, I totally get. These are, like, broad strokes of, like, boys, girls.

But one of the things that I realized is, like, when they were little and they would get upset, I wanted to talk it out with them. And, like, hold them. Because, like, oh, you got your feelings. Like, let's talk about it. And oh, my goodness, so grateful that I'm in therapy. to be able to process because what I needed was to know I was making them feel better because they were in pain. And what they needed, they would like to go to a little cave, just like that book said. Men are from Mars. My younger one, literally, we had a little room.

We have a room under the stairs, just like Harry Potter. We turned it into his little space. And he had a little milk crate and we put up all his things that he liked and he took his favorite babies in there and all his favorite things. he wanted to go there when he was upset. And I'd be like waiting. And at first I was like white knuckling it. Like when's he going to come out and talk about his feelings?

And then I realized like it was learning that they are allowed to process. And it was and I felt where like the female in me was like talk, talk. Come on. Come on. Like I want and I've done that with men my whole life. And like that's not how they processed. And even now that I have a 15 and a half year old like when he's upset, he said that even when I acknowledge he's crying, it makes himself

conscious. Like if he gets, like, if he wells up, he's like, don't, don't. He literally said, don't do what your mom sometimes does to me when I feel sad. I was like, oh, geez. But anyway, but that's, I'm totally going to like, that's what I'm going to do

this evening when I get my kids back. I'm totally going to think about this in the sense that they want quality time. They want me with them off my phone. And they also want me to sit while there on their phone, right, right? Like, just be present, Mama. Like, they want me to hear what on TikTok they thought was funny. Like, well, here's this meme. It's kind of funny, Miles. Well, it's really,

it's fascinating because it's so true. I mean, we project onto our children. But it's like, wait a minute, you are a different human being than I am. I need to act accordingly, love accordingly. Something that in previous generations, many parents did not realize, you know? And even out of love, especially, just going to say it, especially, you know, families from at least, you know, where I come from, that kind of post-Holacost, like, I will hold you so close that they will never separate us. And it's that psychological notion of I don't know where I end and you begin. I think that's true for a lot of families. And it's not that it's done to try and hurt you. It's done out of love, but it's that death grip of love. it's so shocking that men have closeness issues and want a little bit of space. You know what? You can have your space.

You can take your space. But it's so interesting, though. You talk about your 15-year-old who's crying and doesn't want to be seen. You know, I dealt with that last night where my son was like crying on FaceTime and he was not showing me his face. And I'm like, let me see you. And he's like, no. But, you know, again, just going back to my experience and finding and being more vulnerable after the Hoffman experience, It changed everything for me as a man to be able to express myself to my mother. That's incredible.

Right her the things that I wanted to do. My relationship with my wife just, we've been together for 20 years. It took off to another place. And I will say this, this sex was always good. It went to another level. I got connected. It was so connected. Was that, okay, so I want to know, do you think that was the vulnerability you were able to have?

the closeness. I mean, was it understanding her better? Yeah. It was just opening my entire being up to her and expressing

to her how I feel about her. And like we say, foreplay is everything that happens in between sex for women. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

And is this the podcast where you launch your training sessions for men to achieve this vulnerability and better sex in their life? This is good. This is good.

And as long as it's under the mask of better sex, then we can get everyone in and just men will be crying. They'll be sharing their feelings. Yep. They'll barely be able to have sex. They'll be so exhausted from sharing their feelings. Exactly. They'll need a nap. Oliver Hudson, you are a delight.

And it's so fun to meet people who, like, want to talk like us and think like us and just have a great time talking about deep things. Thank you so much. This was awesome. I love this. And you guys are doing really cool stuff. I really love what you're doing. I think it's extremely important in this context because it's not weighty, but you're still talking about it. Right. You know what I mean? I have two questions before we leave. They're both hopefully funny. One is, can I sign my children up for Hoffman right now? Do they accept tweens and teens? And the other thing I was going to say is you're my favorite person in your family. Oh, good. Finally, I got one. I got one on my team. You know what I want to do, Wayne? Go to the Hoffman Institute? Okay. No, I want to go to family therapy with all the Hudson's.

Meet you, Goldie, Kate. That's a reality show. That's a good podcast. That would be a great podcast. You were talking about how men, you know, in previous generations, didn't. cooked, didn't do anything. I know someone's going to be like, my dad cooked. Okay, but mine didn't. So that's why I told that story. Well, it's changed a lot now, the expectations. But my father was left alone for a series of months while my mother took my brother down to a special therapy in New York.

And he was cooking for himself for the very first time, really, in his like adult life, because my mom did most of the cooking. And so after a series of months, what was happening is he kept saying, he was like bored of food because every night he would cook himself he would barbecue chicken put a baked potato in the toaster oven and make broccoli and the man for weeks and weeks just was eating the same thing you know what it's all the food groups right there he covered it anyway so i ended up coming back to the house and i took over cooking for him and he started eating again he started liking life he was so enthusiastic about things all of a sudden he couldn't understand why he was starting to get so depressed.

That's amazing. And then would he eat the cold chicken for breakfast? I don't know. Breakfast was toast, I think. That he could do for himself. Anyway, Oliver Hudson was very, honestly, I was nervous because he comes from such a, like, you know, like, Hollywood family and like all this stuff and like public and this, that the other.

But he's very, I really enjoyed speaking to him. I mean, I have hair envy. Also, what podcast have we done so far that you haven't been nervous for? You're noticing. a pattern. I'm just saying we talked a lot about discovering patterns, identifying patterns. I'm not pointing any fingers, but I'm maybe noticing some similarities. Yes, I am anxious all the time. I mean, if you were thinking that I don't know that I'm anxious all the time and that every episode is like, er, how's this going to go? What am I going to say that's stupid? Yeah, I know that

happens all the time. There's only been one episode where you literally melted and were underneath your chair. What, the Glennon Doyle? Yeah. Why don't we do an ask? Ask Miami anything. Okay. Ask myam anything. Yeah. Hi, Ma'am. I'm, my name's Elizabeth.

I've been listening to your podcast. I really enjoy it and find it very helpful as somebody who also suffers from anxiety. But I would like to hear more about guilt and particularly the way guilt affects us women because it seems to affect us more than men. And I'm just curious if there's a reason for that. Thank you, Elizabeth. I'm going to do something so obnoxious and say to you that you don't suffer from anxiety. You live with anxiety. And you thrive with anxiety. Just a little shift in perspective, how I like to see it. Guilt's kind of one of those amorphous words and it sometimes gets misused. I'm not saying you're misusing guilt.

I'm just saying that it is one of those words that can kind of get thrown around. You know, we think about like mom guilt. and there can be dad guilt, but that's specifically, because you're asking specifically about women, that's kind of one of the first things I think of. I think of, like, people talk about mom guilt. That when men go back to work, what I often hear from male friends is like after having a kid or whatever. It's like they went back to work. They go to work and they have a good day and then they come home and they hang out with the kid. And when women go to work, it's often not like that. And a lot of women go to work and feel a lot of rumination and worry.

And the reason for that is for the most part, again, I'm speaking as someone who studied neuroendocrinology, women are hormonally primed to have a different set of attachment behaviors surrounding a mammalian infant, and that often will be reflected in that notion of guilt of going back to work or being away from the child. There are women who don't feel that at all. Doesn't mean they're not good moms. Doesn't mean they don't have good attachment with their kids. there are women who don't experience that, and there are men who, for whom going back to work is incredibly troublesome and they feel a tremendous amount of guilt. So I'm just going to kind of say that. But guilt is something that indicates that you've done something wrong and you feel bad about it or that you feel conflicted about something and the easiest way to cope with it is to make yourself feel bad because the feelings surrounding how to manage that discomfort are unmanageable. Does that make sense? Jonathan, want to talk about guilt like that?

And the reason that, again, generally speaking, statistically speaking, women may experience guilt more or differently than men is because of our unique position as female mammals, meaning the set of hormones that we have, the XX chromosomes that we have as opposed to an X, Y, those things design us for a life that was probably. Not for sitting behind desks and going to work and looking at skyscrapers and things like that. That DNA and all of evolution was designed for us to be mammals. And Homo sapiens have a very specific placement as mammals, and we build skyscrapers, and we have desks, and we do all these things. But that doesn't change our anatomy and our physiology.

And it doesn't change the fact that we are wired to have a tremendous amount of relational complexity. We care a lot and should about people. We do tend to be more social and have more linguistic complexity in our relationships. And those things in our culture often look like guilt. So I hope that's helpful. You know, the notion of working on yourself to be more forgiving of yourself is one of the greatest gifts that you can give yourself in terms of reducing guilt. and also knowing that it's completely normal to feel guilt if you're doing something that doesn't feel right. But oftentimes it's really just that conflict about, for example, wanting to be in two places at once and not being able to, which produces what we call guilt, but is actually a much more complicated human emotion.

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