Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Part Two: Former CIA Spies on America’s Decline, The Potential of WW3, & What’s Really Happening Behind the Scenes in the US Government

Episode Date: September 17, 2025

What’s REALLY Going On Behind the Scenes of the CIA, the Media, and the U.S. Government? On Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown, former CIA agents and intelligence officers Andrew & Jihi Bustamante (creators of the EverydaySpy podcast, authors of Shadow Cell: An Insider Account of America’s New Spy War & popular guests on Diary of a CEO & The Joe Rogan Experience) pull back the curtain in this explosive, no-holds-barred conversation. From the moment you marry a spy (can you ever truly trust your partner?) to the shocking 4 categories of lies the CIA teaches—Mayim & Jonathan dive deep into the secretive world of espionage, national security, and the collapse of trust in modern institutions. Andrew and Jihi break down the shrinking middle class caused by American politics post-Trump, what it means for our future, whether the U.S. is moving closer to dictatorship (and if so, can we stop it?), and why the wealthy elite are leaving the U.S. (and which countries they’re fleeing to). These whistleblowers expose what the CIA doesn’t want you to know: - The 4 categories of lies every CIA officer is trained to tell - The agency’s current use of psychics and Cold War-era remote viewing programs - The loneliness and psychological toll of living a covert life - How the news & media is manipulated—and why even “trusted” outlets are failing us - Post-Trump politics: is the U.S. sliding toward dictatorship or already in it? - Why wealthy elites are fleeing America (and where they’re going) - The global fallout if a U.S. president is jailed, and what it means for our standing - The CIA’s take on Israel, rising global conflicts, and the risk of world war - How AI is dehumanizing warfare and reshaping the battlefield - Why Epstein’s case continues to expose cracks in our institutions Andrew and Jihi also reveal how influence, persuasion, and dialogue can still be used productively—even in a fractured society. From Venezuela’s collapse as a warning sign to the everyday challenge of separating real news from propaganda, this is more than an interview—it’s a wake-up call. Get the truth behind headlines, corruption, and the secret machinery of the U.S. government & change the way you see everything! Find your Spy Superpower: ⁠https://yt.everydayspy.com/4mjywCV⁠ Andrew & Jihi Bustamante's book, Shadow Cell: ⁠https://geni.us/ShadowCellBook⁠ Andrew Bustamante's YouTube Channel: ⁠https://youtube.com/@Andrew-Bustamante⁠ Explore Spy School: ⁠https://everydayspy.com/⁠ Andrew Bustamante's Podcast: ⁠https://youtube.com/@EverydaySpyPodcast⁠ Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠ ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi, I'm I'm Biolik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to part two of our conversation with Everyday Spy Andy Bustamante and Ghi Bustamante, authors of Shadow Cell, an insider account of America's new spy war. We spoke to Andrew Bustamante a bit over a year ago on the podcast, but this time we have him and his wife, both former CIA operatives, in the studio. We're going to talk about their book, but in part two, we get into some very heavy-hitting questions about World War III, about Iran, about complacency as the biggest problem facing the United States,

and ways to titrate your energy and your time and your attention so that you're functioning optimally, something that Ghee talks about learning from Andy as part of their journey into the CIA. We also talk about practical ways to influence people, how to use dialogue to bridge the gap and to get your points across to people that you want to have influence over. how to ensure that you're constantly growing, learning, otherwise you're dying,

and how to ensure that you're getting the real news, not just what the social media algorithms are promoting. And we really hope you enjoy part two of our conversation with Andrew and Ghee Bustamante. Break it down. Are we on the verge or already moving into a third world war? I want your opinion on this because I know my opinion. opinion on this? I would say no. Do I think China is going to take Taiwan? Yes. Do I think Russia's and Ukraine is going to end up the way everybody would like it to? No. But the World War

where we are all involved? No, I don't think so. I think there are certain countries that will take other countries. But I think, especially right now, I don't think, I don't think the former allies will get involved the way they did a World War too. And I would agree with Geehee's answer in terms of traditional World War conceptual thinking. People think of a World War as Axis and Allies. People think of it like World War I and World War II. I mean, we're done with trench warfare. We would hope, although... We're not at all. It's in Ukraine. Alive and well in your country. But that's what I thought, you know... Isn't that crazy? And the reason the reason I'm asking is because I think a lot of

people, myself included, thought we were sort of beyond these hot wars with trench warfare and sort of some of the, what feels almost medieval, that you see only in World War II, movies and yet there have been these hot spots that have sprung up around the world that make people feel like we're increasingly unstable. So I'm of the opinion that World War III will look nothing like World War II and that we are very likely in the early stages, if not in full out World War III as it is now. This is a divide in the couple. Correct.

This is where we see it differently. And that's because I don't actually know why that is. Gee, he just has a very, for all the. villainy that lives inside her. I still have hope. She still has hope. And I'm just, I'm absolutely practical. Well, actually, I'd like to know how each half of this couple interpreted Iran. That was not a fun week. You know, with the U.S., I don't know, knee-deep. Yeah. You know, in Iran. So what happened? What was dinner like that week in your house? I know that I can't affect any of what's going on in the world right now. And so I usually take things from the

perspective of, this is really interesting. And then I ask Andy his opinion. So Andy gets his opinion asks a lot. But I, the interesting things I thought was, I thought it was really dangerous for both Israel and the United States because I feel like Iran, I feel like we were underestimating what Iran might do. And I don't think that it's over. I think that Iran plays a long game because it can. And it worries me now what the consequences might be for Israel in the future. It was an interesting day for us because I think we were surprised to see that the United States would send American troops into harm's way in Iran. No, I wasn't surprised. Also, done without a larger conversation. I mean, that I think was also very surprising.

Soon as Trump said, which was a week before, like, we're thinking about it. I was like, oh, something going to bomb Iran. Yeah. And I wasn't so sure at that point. What I, I do think that what Jeh is saying is the most interesting piece of it is that the bombing of Iran was less interesting, actually, than the manipulation of the American president. And that was what was so powerful. Because, and you've, he's easily manipulatable because when you have someone, who is sensitive, who is volatile, who does not like to be humiliated, and doesn't do well with international trash talking, which is the currency of Iran. Yeah, it's a real, that's like a firecracker in a barrel.

And then to think that we did all that for questionable outcomes is tough. And that's, I think that's what we agree on for sure is just what actions are we taking right now that are really benefiting the American people? What actions are we taking? What expenses are we incurring that are actually making? for a bigger, stronger American future for our children and for our children's children. I mean, my favorite thing was that Sasha Barron Cohen just kept posting clips of the dictator because literally the whole movie was playing out in real time.

He just kept posting clips. I mean, it was a prophetic movie. It was. Tell us about the divide in your perspective about World War III and how you see the future of war playing out. So I think it's because, I think a lot of it's tied to the fact that I'm, former military and gee he is not and from my experience in the military what i've learned is that the military is a is a giant brainwashing engine and once you're in it the system is so effective at basically forcing you to believe or forcing you out but the system is very powerful so once you're

in it everybody's hungry to use their skills everybody's hungry to fly their plane drop their bomb shoot their gun take them just wash the plane you want to fly it yeah yeah i mean i can't tell you how many times i've heard people celebrate we're take the fight to the enemy and I'm just like you know there's other ways to resolve things besides taking the fight to the enemy and especially when you're talking about you know lives being lost and flame emojis are for on signal so that our government can be like go get them boys sorry side note but it's fair but it's valid right and that's what we've become now we've we've become so disconnected from what war really is because we've been riding the benefit of technology for so long now we can just launch a drone even Ukraine now

is launching drones. We're investing in drones. It just dehumanizes conflict, which makes us that much more eager to engage in conflict. What we don't realize is that on the back end of the conflict, there's all sorts of economic benefits that make it so that the powers that be want more conflict. They want to sell more guns, they want to do more bullying, and it's really, really difficult. So what we've learned through the schools of military is that there's interstate war and intrastate war. Interstate war is when I go to war with you and you're a different national, like you're a sovereign nation. Interstate war is expensive. Interstate war creates political backlash, creates international backlash. It's difficult and costly and ugly to do what Russia did to Ukraine.

Intrust state war, conflict that exists inside of a sovereign state is much easier to manipulate. That's what you had in Libya. That's what you had in Syria. In some arguments, that's what you have inside Gaza Strip. You have a conflict inside of a country. And then those conflicts are so much easier to fund, to participate with a shadow hand, to capitalize on without putting your own troops

and your own weapons at risk. So because of the shift in attitude at a geopolitical level, people want more intra-state war. Just like every venture capitalist is looking for the new high ROI, business, every global power competitor is looking for the next highest ROI intrastate conflict, whether that's happening in Africa or South America or whether it's happening in the Caribbean

islands or whether it's happening here in the United States. They're looking for a place where countries at war with itself because then all you do is pour fuel on the fire and benefit from the outcome. I just, first of all, I don't like this game we're playing. I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Because you know what I'm thinking about the people that usually sit in these chairs? are people talking about collective consciousness and we're talking about that like God is overseeing everything and we're all just like sparkly light

and we're just like an embodiment we're just a physical body having a spiritual experience is the goal. That's a lot of our episodes lately. And it's like a lot of like I almost died but then God told me come back so that I can save the world. So like I like those games

and I like the games where it's like we're all living in the Matrix but like everybody, just wants what's good and like even murderers are hurt and so like just you know like a liberal open loving consciousness like there's no gender we're all just beings orbs of light that are just happen to be in human suits i like that game of like take lions main and you'll feel better i think a lot of people like that game which is what makes it so easy i mean i don't like this part of the matrix meaning like i believe this is true i also do believe like this is all sort of like a

projection and we're like receiving all this information from the universe. But yeah, these are negative energies, not you. But, you know, when we talk about these things, it's like, you know, I believe that like what is, you know, kind of like subsuming all of this is sort of a spark of like goodness and holiness and like, oh my gosh, we all exist and we have consciousness, right? And the notion that we've evolved as, you know, this species, you know, to be having these kinds of elaborate and complicated, you know, it's like a lot of people want to check out from it, hence drugs, alcohol, porn, you know, work, like, whatever your drug is. So it's kind of, it's very interesting because I think, you know, for a lot of people, this is why people have

stopped watching the news. You don't know what to believe. I mean, look, when I stopped reading the New York Times because I couldn't handle the conflict with truth that I often saw. It made my life a lot simpler because I was no longer sifting through and getting outraged and getting sick. And like, I get acid reflux if I read the news and scroll on Instagram, right? So it's like, yeah, so many people just want to like check out from this because it feels impossible. The thing to remember is there are people who want you to check out. You've got to keep that in mind, too. Checking out is not taking that. No, I can't even check out. No, I definitely think you should check out

because I check out also. And then what I do is I just strategically read. Check in. I just strategically check in. Like I'll pull up AP like once or twice a week and be like, is there anything big that I missed? When she's like energized.

When she's been able to put on her armor to put up with the bullets. When I have the mental capacity to do so. But I think that's something else that people need to remember is that when Andy talks about these big powers that are earning money off of war and starting wars, these these aren't masses of people yeah these are governments right and the

governments are being controlled by a small group of people so the majority of people I believe because I'm a peace-living Buddhist that are good and have hope and don't want these things right they just want to raise their kids and to be able to feed them and clothe them and educate them and have a nice home for them I think that's what most people want have their friends and their neighbors and everybody get along. So I think if the majority of people remember that it's the government and certain, you know, economic powers that are making these bad decisions, these decisions that do not benefit us,

you know, then they can have, they can retain the hope that humanity is good and that we can collectively change things. It might take time. It may take a lot of effort. I mean, part of the reason we shouldn't completely check out is because it's up to us to make these changes. If we completely check out, they're all in power and they make the decisions that they want to. She's a very good balance for you. She's an excellent balance.

I mean, if you took her away, we would be cycling in war and destruction. And then I wonder, you get off camera and then I'm very concerned for your mental sanity. But then you can go back and connect with your beautiful wife. And she's, Andrew, let's have some hope together. Yes. And what's funny is, you know, it does go back and forth because there are hopeless moments for her too. Yeah. But I can't help but think of the experience of parents.

And I don't know your children, but my children, I have one that is kind and hopeful and generous. And I have one that is not those things. Who will be a dictator if allowed? And when I think about the future, I have to protect one. And I have to protect others from the other. When you look at the world, it's not that different from looking at the family. There are many, many people who need to be protected, who are kind, who are generous, who are open, who are sensitive. And there are a fewer group that you need to protect others from.

That group of feisty, ambitious, ruthless people always go much farther in the way. what they can accomplish than the group of sensitive people. Because the sensitive people need collective support, they need resources, they need patience, whereas the feisty group will literally take almost nothing and just charge their way forward. Well, and for those of us with sensitive children, we would say that those children also have the capacity to influence others with their, you know, empathy, their intuitiveness, their connection to something larger that hopefully, you know, they can sort of bring down

to us. I mean, you know, there's been people who have been saying this is the age of Aquarius. you know, for decades now, but many people believe there's a shift in consciousness. A lot of people saw COVID as sort of like a wake-up call. So, you know, there's also, I think there's evolution on both sides, right? What I'm saying is just that the traditional way that we've watched geopolitics play out, there's the person who can influence you to open the door, and that takes time. And then there's a person who just breaks down the door,

or the person who just twists the doorknob, sees it, it's unlocked, and walks right through. And that has been the person that we have turned into the hero, right? Our action movies, our dramas, our war movies, you name it, are all about bold, risk-taking, assertive people. So we've glorified that attitude. And we've marginalized the sensitive, patient, influential person. We have to decide now, is that how we're going to move forward? We all have to rewatch Aaron Brockovich. I mean, what?

I thought you were going to name another delightful Julia Roberts movie. Or one of your Sandra Bullock rom-coms that you think of save us. The reason being, she saw a problem, she took legal action, she pursued a way in order to protect people who needed protecting. No one believed her. She had a lot of resilience. My NBialx breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office. and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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Gee, how do you see the evolution? You know, you talked about your parents and their background. Do you see it as a change in the collective conscience? And, you know, sort of reframe it also as like if we talk about a lot of the power dynamics, profiting off of war and a few people in government, especially, who need war in order to fuel this massive economic engine. And without it, there's a huge transition, right? Yeah.

Like, without that, the people employed in those areas, there's a massive amount of displacement and change. Same is true in health. You know, there's a crazy map that went around recently that showed the number of people employed by state in health care and the change in the last 20 years and basically the increase. Now it's like the largest employer in almost every single state. And so you need sick people in order to,

to employ all the people in health care. How do you see sort of the global war machine as it relates to what I, you know, for lack of a better word, would call a collective conscience that or consciousness that wants to live in a different way? I mean, I think the biggest problem with, in particular with people in the United States, is complacency. I think that we have just as a nation, as the population of the nation of the United States have become completely complacent. So I think there's lots of people out there who don't want the war machine, who don't want the violence and in all of the negative things they're seeing happening, but they're too complacent to do anything about it. They just want to check out. They just want to scroll through Instagram. They just want to go have a drink with

their friends. They don't want to think about it. And it's a shame because nothing will change that way. In fact, things will change not the way that they wanted to. And that's the route we're going down right now. And I think people just need to wake up and learn how to, I mean, to live life properly, you have to make an effort. You cannot coast through life, right? Life is full of change. Life is full of learning. You have to learn the skills of civil discourse. You have to learn how to get along with people who don't have the same opinions. You have to learn how to influence other people to try to get them to see your perspective. And that's a game. That's the game that Geehee was saying. It's a dirty,

trick, treacherous, tricky game, but it's a game. Whether you want to influence your kids to brush your teeth or whether you want to influence your in-laws to vote for a different candidate, you have to understand there is a recipe for influence, and there's a process for influence, and you might feel sticky in the process, but if it gets you the outcome that you're trying to achieve, is it really dirty at all? Influence doesn't equal bad, right? Like if you influence your children to brush your teeth, that's not bad. I think it's oppressive. My daughter would say so, too. So practical takeaways for people who don't want to check out but don't know where to start. What are some ways that they can learn the subtle art of influence or the not-so-suttle art?

So I think the first thing that people can work on is just dialogue. There's so much done with these short messages over Instagram or Facebook or texting. People don't actually have conversations anymore. So more in-person conversations. Pick a topic. discuss. Disagree. Disagree.

Use your phone to look up facts instead of scrolling through your Facebook while you're sitting with your friend. I mean, I think step number one is practice dialogue in person with another human being. A big part of the reason Ji and I created the business that we run is because these skills didn't exist. There's no place to go to learn dialogue. I would argue the vast majority of people don't even know the definition of dialogue, how it's different than a conversation,

how it's different than an explanation, right? Because dialogue is the exchange of ideas. So you can't just sit there and be spoken to and call that a dialogue, even though that's what many, you know, college professors tend to think they're doing is having it, we're going to have a dialogue here today, folks. No, you're going to talk to a classroom of 150 people

and they're not going to talk back and maybe you'll get five questions about what you're saying, not in exchange of new ideas. And dialogue is very powerful because in a proper dialogue, dialogue creates a sense of relationship between two people. When I hear your position on something and you hear my position on something, even if we disagree, we both feel heard that triggers a sense of connection in our brain, that triggers the opening

for persuasion and influence. You can't persuade or influence people without that opening. The way that we see all this mass propaganda take over like you talk about, and the way that we see this mass influence take hold is because people are pulling on emotional triggers, which is why you create these echo chambers of the far left and the far right. You already know what words will trigger emotions and then you can just feed in whatever you want to feed in next

once you have that person triggered. Well, and I think that also sort of leads to, you know, your social media is not where you should be getting news. Right. No. And the amount of people who do it is phenomenal. I have teenagers, so I kind of dismissed it as like, oh, well, you know, when I was that age,

I mean, look, I was reading the newspaper. I was learning to read the newspaper. And, like, that was a thing that I was. wouldn't, you know, necessarily encourage my kids to do. But I think, like, what if you did not listen to the news that was on social media? Because also, and there's some really fascinating studies about this, the proportion of perspectives that are reflected on social media is often driven by bots. It's often driven by countries like Qatar. So, you know, what you're actually seeing is not even a proportional representation of even what most people are thinking.

about or needing to learn about. So I love this notion of also like give up the notion of getting news from social media and some of those legacy media places that you used to rely on, guess what? They're not impartial. And if you want to read what your perspective is, great, go those places. But if you want to read what an actual kind of reflection of perspectives is, you do have to seek out, like you said, places like AP News, places that are kind of reporting from a more old school news reporting place. We spoke to Connie Chung here. And I remember that was one of our questions. And she was saying that like, even during Watergate, it didn't matter if you were a Republican or if you were a Democrat. You saw what was happening and this is not okay. We do not tap phone,

like all those things. But it was so interesting because now it feels like I don't even know how reporters are supposed to report because of the larger, you know, so I think that's also an important kind of practical tip. Yeah, and reading more than one news source. I would never advocate for somebody to just relay on one news source. You have to have multiple. So if you want the New York Times, fine. But also read Routers or AP News.

And then also, I would even suggest, read something that's a conservative news source. You can be uncomfortable without it being triggering. Yeah. You can be mad without it being PTSD, right? Yeah. Like, what does it feel like to learn to tolerate? And look, I reached a

certain point where it's like, I do not need to talk to people about X, Y, or Z. So, like, we all have those points. But generally speaking, if you're learning about the economy, if you're learning about what's going on in government, you get to learn how to tolerate being uncomfortable and saying they have their reasons, but I'm not just going to siphon it off and be like, I'm blocking you from my feed. I mean, even on this podcast, it's interesting, we get comments of listeners who are like, I don't agree with every guest. Great. Don't agree with every guest. That doesn't mean that you should listen to every episode necessarily. I don't agree with Jonathan most of the time.

But I think it's important to be able to hear at least part of someone's perspective and not just be like, no, you're wrong. That only divides us. We don't get anywhere in that. You don't grow. Yes. And that's the thing that Ji and I, I mean, I'm less worried about division and more worried about growth. Because I had a very wise CIA friend who once told me,

if you're not growing, you're dying. And I didn't really understood, I didn't understand that at the time, but I understand it much better as I get older. Because when you stop growing, when you become complacent, when you just coast, I mean,

you don't take in any new ideas and just say, this is my perspective. I mean, that's very hard because, you know, everyone also talks about that in science. They're like,

this is the science, but science is constantly changing and evolving and learning new things. Correct. Yes. So same thing with dialogue. If you can't take in other people's perspectives and understand where other people are coming from, how can you have any new ideas about how to get better?

How does that relate, though, to people who may be, like, so far on a spectrum as to be somewhat radical? Or, like, people who are like, they are drinking the blood of children. Like, where does it end? That becomes a personal question about how much, what the level of effort is that you want to put into it. Yeah. And if it was my child that was drinking the blood of children, I would have a lot more effort that I'd be willing to put into it

because you want to connect you don't want to sever the connection but what it is is I mean there's there are people that you just have to we kind of again I'm the very pragmatic one there are either productive or destructive relationships

that you're in any given time and you want to continue to contribute to productive relationships because they are productive productive to who productive to you but then there are also destructive relationships

and every ounce of effort that you put into a destructive relationship is destructive to who, to you. So if you could take back your resources from all the destructive relationships and put them into the productive relationships, where would you go? Stop being obligated to your mom. Stop answering the phone when your sister's calling to complain. Stop worrying about your old college friend who has no hope.

Like, stop dealing with these people. You're only dealing with them because you feel like you have to. You're a bad person if you ignore them. That's not how I was trained to see it at all. How I was trained to see it is you have a certain number of gold coins. in your purse. And for every gold coin you put into a destructive relationship, you lose the return on investment if you would have put into production.

Oh, my. Therapy with Andy. Now he sounds like all the mystics, right? He sounds like every transcendental psilocybin tripper we've had. Like, don't give away your energy, man. Like, keep it for yourself. You have to prioritize yourself. Correct.

He has the hair of a mystic. He should be able to speak like that. One day. I mean, what's interesting is, that I think a lot of men speak like this. And we know that from therapists and a female therapist, they also speak like this. But what we've heard and Mayam talks about is that women are conditioned sometimes to not have that perspective, to be much more accommodating to give up their own wants and desires to be supportive. I don't know if it's that a lot of men say that.

I think a lot of men in many cases, and you can tell me if you deserve it. A lot of men have the the liberty to be able to, I don't want to say abdicate, but to be able to delegate emotional labor to women because we tend to culturally be expected. You do that, especially if you come from a traditional or patriarchal society or cultural or religion. It's really, you know, kind of built in. So, yeah, we're the ones who get the autoimmune disorders. We're the ones, you know, who are kind of like bearing the brunt of a lot of that and yeah. Well, Jeh, do you share his gold coins, limiting your gold coin expenditure model? I had to learn that because I was raised in a patriarchal household where the women took on everything.

And you were expected to hold space for everybody where Andy can just literally walk away from conversation and nobody says anything. I mean, whether anybody would have said anything or not, I would have felt guilty about it because the way I was raised. So over time, I was in a bad relationship. And it was after that that I learned, you cannot change everybody. That maybe there's a person that can change another person, but that's not necessarily you, and you can walk away.

And so it took me seven years and a lot of debt and an anxiety disorder to learn that you only have a certain number of coins and you need to invest those wisely. And now nobody gets jeez coins. It's hilarious because she just avoids everybody. Even the people she really, really loves. She's like, I just don't want to spend that coin now. Tell us a little bit about the process to get there.

You mentioned an anxiety disorder. Tell us about the process. Yeah, so I was diagnosed with anxiety disorder. Like the second week, I was at the CIA. This is actually a phenomenal story. She was a copious vomitor. Yes, it was terrible. No connection to...

Like, was nervous to eat on their first date because she might have thrown up all over him. From anxiety. Yes, from anxiety. Like our first kiss, he was like, you're not going to throw up on me, are you? How else do you know you really like someone? Exactly. Okay, well, hold on one second.

Yes. You're going into a job that requires an enormous level of stress secrets, and they didn't sort of say maybe this isn't constitutionally appropriate for you? So none of us knew because I was, other than my physical symptoms, I was handling. it well. So it was very functional. Also, this was a while ago. People weren't so into talking about these things. No. And even with all the psychological batteries that they give you and I talked to a psychologist and all of that, like none of it came up because I didn't know I had it. So I'd been, I'd ended my relationship and six months after the end of that relationship, I was sick. But I couldn't figure out what it was. I just knew like I was having trouble keeping food down. So I had all

these tests done. Nothing came up. So I started my new job. And then it was when Andy asked me out on a date and he called to pick me up and I was like, I can't go. And he was like, oh, we could just get coffee. I was like, I can't buy it. And then I went and threw up and I was like, oh my gosh, I have an anxiety disorder. So I diagnosed myself.

I go to my doctor and they're like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So then I went to the agency because I ended up in the ER because I couldn't hold food down. Okay. I just wasn't. So couldn't eat, couldn't drink.

I just was throwing up all the time. Andy's love makes people want to die. I'll just waste away to nothing because of his love. Yes. It was really hard at the time for me, too. I was like, this is a bad sign. I know, poor guy. You're a bad sign.

But, you know, I missed a few days of work, and I didn't have a phone number to call. And so I was like, well, security is going to find me no matter what. Like, you can't just disappear from the CIA. So finally, the HR lady calls me, and I tell her, and I think I'm done. I'm like, just like you said, there's no way CIA is going to keep me on with an anxiety disorder. And immediately they were like, you can see our in-house psychologist. She'll hook you up with an outside therapist who's cleared, who knows where you work. And we'll make, we'll put you on an easy assignment.

We'll make space for you to go to your therapy appointments twice a week. And I was like, I mean, they trained you so they don't want to lose you because they put all this money and time into getting you there. Exactly. I don't know, people. That makes me nervous, though. When they see. Because then you're being sent to, you're being sent to places all over the world and life-threatening situations. Every time I went overseas, I had to go talk to a psychiatrist before I left to make sure that I was ready.

Before every podcast, we have a little consult. Yeah. CIA sees it as a benefit. A benefit professionally and a benefit organizationally to them to have people with high anxiety. Those are the people who are going to identify a risk before the risk is present. Stop it. There's are the people who are going to marry the job. Those are the people who will not.

say no when you're asked to go do something like we were asked to do for shadow cell my anxiety just got me this podcast i think it's a work for the CIA it'd be a secret agent so you get this you get the diagnosis you're now getting treatment yeah then what happens so I just did all the things that you were supposed to do you know I I made sure I was having I couldn't sleep so you know I started taking medication for like all the GI issues that I had that were caused by the anxiety I started trying to put weight back on. I started exercising. I wasn't dating.

Wasn't dating. I avoided Andy like the plague for like two months. We worked on the same floor. And I was like I would not go by where I thought his office was until one day we ended up in an all hands meeting. So like the whole floor was there. And I couldn't avoid him. And I thought, oh, I got to say something. Because up until then, I'd been every time I tried to write him like an I'm sorry email, I would want to go throw up.

So there was nothing. That's how you know it's love. Yes, exactly. Butterflies are next level with these two. Yes. So at the all hands, it was so quick. I didn't have time to get anxious. So I was like, I'm really sorry.

And then he was very kind to me. He's like, I want that wounded birds. I know. It was quite the opposite. She can't fly away. She's holding out one functioning wing. So women's, women's perspectives aside. Let's talk about the men's perspective for a second.

Poor Annie. Because when a girl completely avoid. you in the workplace, immediately you're like, oh shit, am I going to get reported for HR? Am I about to get reporter for sexual harassment because I called her and said, do you want me to pick you up? And she said no. And then I kind of pushed and I was like, do you want to just do tea or coffee? And did she see that as like in a front on?

And I was like, oh, shit, I'm waiting for the day that I get called in by my supervisor and handed like a letter that says you've been accused of sexual harassment. And I'm just like, oh, especially at the time when that kind of stuff was really ill-defined and nobody knew what to expect. so for two months, I was terrified. Both of you are suffering with massive amounts of anxiety. It's contagious. How do you go from that to learning not to give your coins away?

So Andy was really helpful because Andy kind of doesn't give a shit about other people. It's a glowing review for me today. You should bring her on all your podcasts. So he was really. helpful in helping me heal and you know being somebody I could really talk to him be there for but he also was he helped me grow as a person he was this great model for me and how to be confident in yourself and stand your ground and you don't have to feel obligated that was something we had a lot of conversations about

because I come from a family of obligation and that's it's just very traditional right you were obligated to do certain things as part of the family and he was Like, you don't have to do that. Like suffer and be miserable. Yeah. It's like, show up to everything and be involved in every, you know, everybody's conversation. So you knew, I would guess, you knew what people expected of you before it was ever spoken. Oh, yeah.

And you would go above and beyond just in case. Because you knew if you said no to this person that this is going to be their reaction and this. And so anytime anyone is asking anything of you, you're immediately going into preventive. Jonathan, think about what it's like when you've been at like, formal family meals at my house where like the women are never sit yeah they never sit and we serve the man first and like that's literally it's what we're trained for and when we're not like cooking and serving we're cleaning up or making sure the kids are okay like that's what it's so funny that they have to ask it's just like pre-anticipate everyone's needs and anxiety keep this one away from that one don't serve him a second drink

because he's going to get weird right like it's like oh come on this is not only a female condition this is a condition of anyone who has a high level of scanning sensitivity. I had to work very hard to get my parents' expectations out of my head, especially in my early 20s and 30s, because I knew exactly what they wanted. And I knew if I said no to them, this is going to be the response, and they're going to think that I'm saying this. So I think a lot of people can relate to this. So you're growing and changing. But, you know, can you tell us a bit about the process of, you know, do you start to then identify when the should is happening or when you start using that anticipatory quality to act and are you sort of

you know I guess practical CBT just yeah expanding the time between the stimulus and response yeah so I started saying I started practicing saying no more often and in the beginning that really looked like me saying yes and then calling back to say to not calling back to say no that's give myself too much credit but calling saying yes email. And then, yeah, and then sending a text with some kind of lame excuse to get out of it. That's how it started. And it was very embarrassing for me because I didn't like doing that. But over time, as I felt the benefits of having my own time and having my own life back and not having to do things that I felt obligated to do, that positive reinforcement started helping me to be like, you know what, I can't. And I would still make up these lame excuses because I still felt guilty. But over the years, I mean, That's, it's been, I've known you, 17 years now.

Yeah. So over 17 years, I am now at a point where I can say, I don't want to do that. And I also, I mean, I want to give GE credit where credit is due, but I also want to make sure that practically what she has done is she's taking a hammer instead of a scalpel. And she's just, she's momentum, momentum was at the core of it all. Once she saw the benefit of saying no once or twice, she kind of got hooked. she got hooked on the rush on the better sleep additional reading time

right house projects that she's been putting off and she just got hooked on it and then all of a sudden everybody was no and then all of a sudden she just stopped taking phone calls and then she stopped checking emails

and then she was just like and she moved out of the house there's like an element of it that is that I would never claim is helpful or healthy that we're still working through where I'm just kind of like you know you do still have to live

in the same house as the kids. Because we've had the conversation about a second apartment where she can go stay at the apartment and the apartment can also be our office at the same time. And then I have to like...

I love that idea. I can come meet her for tea. She and I can have ladies' time. No, she's going to say no. She won't answer the door. But that's where we kind of are now. And when I have to pick between the two, for sure, I pick this 100% of the time

because she always has time for the people that she truly, truly cares about, which makes us feel really good. Right? It makes the kids feel good. It makes me feel good. It makes our closest friends feel good. Because they understand Ghi will make space for us.

But she's not going to make space for our problems. So we've learned not to give her, you don't, Ghee's not the one you go to the bitch. I'm the one you go to when you want to complain. Geehe's the one you go to when you want to have a hopeful conversation about something. It's actually quite profound the amount of energy you get back. And profound how much energy gets drained when we're in those interactions that are not fueling us. Right. And I think right now, now I've gotten to a point where I have like a mental calculator of my energy for the day.

Like if I wake up tired or if I wake up really energetic or whatever, like I have this mental calculator. And then I look at my day or I, you know, when people ask me to do things, I start to calculate, am I going to have enough energy at the end of the day or am I going to burn myself? And I think that has been a really helpful tool for me along the way to not overextend. And I'm very careful not to overextend anymore. And just to tie it to the book for just a second. this book was four years in the making, not because it took us so long to write it, but because CIA fought with us

for three years about publishing this book. Wow. So I very much appreciate that you read it and that you enjoyed it because it took so much effort to get it across the finish line because we were fighting the U.S. government to get it published.

And the reason I bring it up is because it's such a strong example of Jehe's coins. She wrote the book, she participated in the writing of the book, she submitted it like she was supposed to, and then CIA came back and said everything you wrote is classified.

Wow. And once they said that, Ghee was like, I know that's bullshit because we took great care to make sure that nothing in here violates sources or methods. And then CIA just came back with a blanket statement.

Everything's classified. You cannot publish. So Ghee went into her, she went into her hole. And she's like, I'm not going to participate anymore. I don't like conflict. I said no, and I don't want to deal with that because I don't want to think about jail time.

I don't want to think about lawsuits. I don't want to think about all. all this stuff. I had the opposite effect. I was like, fuck that. Yeah. So then I push back. I argue with them via email. I go up to CIA headquarters. I argue with them in person. I end up hiring an attorney and I'm like, this, somebody needs to look at this because I'm willing to publish this book without their approval, which will violate contractual agreements, but not criminal agreements, et cetera, et cetera. So gee, he came back and she was like, I don't want you just to cause all this ruckus. So she started getting a little bit more involved and a little bit more

involved. And eventually, she did everything that she thought was reasonable and fair, took it to CIA, and they came back and said, no, it's classified. And then she lost it at that point. She was like, this is bullshit. And then the full force of Ghee came into effect and she charged forward. And really, that's what got us across the nation. I was like, we're going to sue you. Her willingness to sue CIA through a cutout attorney. When that news got to them, they were like, you know what? We also are classified anymore. No, and I think this is a good kind of button you know, you I mean, while I enjoyed the backstory which is kind of like, I mean, at least I have a pre-published

edition where it talks about it and from what you said, I will say it doesn't suffer. Meaning I don't know what all you would have liked to include, but I have to say that I mean it's fantastic like in terms of the arc that you go on.

And I don't feel like you're missing, meaning the story is still fleshed out enough. And I know that you had to create some fictional things. And I kept being like, I wonder where this is. And I wonder what they mean. But it doesn't suffer in terms of the arc of the story that you tell. And all of the meat is there. So I'm glad that you struggled through kind of like getting it pushed through. But also whatever was removed, it really, it's a fully fleshed out kind of experience that you take us on.

Thank you. And thank you. to my wife. Thank you for coming out of your hole in enough time to get it across the finish line. Because I would have just banged my head against a brick wall. She's the only one that knows how to actually break through that place. Well, thank you both for coming. Thank you for spending your coins with us today. You're welcome. Really, it's a pleasure to speak with both of you. And where can people find out more about all the other incredible fun work that you do? Absolutely. You can find us at our website anytime, Everydayspy.com. Our book Shadowcell is available everywhere

that books are sold. So you'll see it in the air. You can find it on Amazon. You can find it on Barnes & Noble, any place in the U.S., the UK, all over the world. And on social media, you'll find us at Everyday Spy. The book will also be found anywhere you go next when you relocate. That's true, too. So many new things. I'm back in my seat now. We changed everything for people who are watching. We were all in the wrong seats. Two guests. You know what? It was actually very comfortable. This table was a good size for them to sit there. I did not enjoy sitting in your seat. What? Really? No. Why? Just felt weird. I liked sitting across from you because I could see your face.

I had to keep checking my hair. I had to keep turning. This way I can be like, oh, it needs a fluff. You know what? I noticed you were a lot less distracted sitting in this seat because you are not looking at the monitor. Right now in your seat, you're basically just like front facing the... Can we turn the TV off?

Do we need that television? No, we do. We need it. No, we don't. Because knowing me, I'll have like one hair sticking out this way and I'll want to fix it. Follow us on Substack. My MVP, My MVP,

On Substack, because we're going to do a behind the scenes of what the studio looks like and what I have to compete with in order to get... It's pretty funny. Yeah.

I think I would have been good working for the CIA had I not been a famous television actress. Yeah, you would have a really hard time now. Hetty Lamar did it. She was a very famous starlit and she spied during World War II. Or it could be,

no one would suspect you because they would be like, oh, why is this TV actor in Barcelona investigating something that she has no business in? You'll be like, I'm just learning about a TV role that I'm playing. Oh, I could have such good cover. I could be like, I'm here doing press for my movie that doesn't exist. I'm doing a photo shoot.

I got really excited about the idea of creating backstories for people and like we could build websites for the businesses that they run. The business that Mime runs is a miniature cat creating, like, she creates little cat miniatures, cabbage pads for miniature cats. It also didn't occur to me how much more elaborate because of computers, and we didn't even get to talk about AI fully. You have to build a whole social media backstory. You could build, right. Like if someone's like, oh, my cover is that I'm a blah, blah, blah, they'd be like, well, you have to have a website and you have to have a this. And it really is. You have to have fake friends that AI can create.

create for you? It's creating many, many jobs. CIA people. They're just creating so many jobs. The whole world is talking about all the jobs that AI is going to take away. We just added some. We just created some. That's important. I have a friend, and we always suspected that her husband worked for the CIA. Oh, this is the friend that you were telling me he's a professor, but he's like constantly traveling around the world. You're like, I'm an account. I teach accounting, but some, Somehow I'm in Dubai for like 80% of the year and you're like, wait a second. You either have a second family or you're a spy.

He's very mild-mannered. He's a lovely man. He's very bright. There's three families, one in Morocco, one in Dubai. And his wife is like, if he's getting paid, I would know. Like, I'm the family accountant. It's not coming in through regular accounts. I'm like, well, he's got secret offshore accounts.

It's been a running joke for approximately 30 years. You never know what people are up to You never know what people are up Trust no one That's what Jehe says She doesn't even trust Andrew Look if people haven't listened to Our first Andrew Boostamonte episode

He's much more mild-mannered With his wife in the room Totally different guy He's so sweet with her And they're such a good balance for each other Yeah they're very interesting balance Sometimes when you text me I feel like I'm gonna vomit

That's how I know the emotions are real I think you and I should play them in the movie version of this. I'm going to become an actor just so I can play Andrew Bustamante because I just want to wear the wig that is his hair. His hair is amazing. I think we should get a wig that looks like that and just to see what I would look like. I think he recently said somewhere that like, oh, people would love me no matter what my hair looked like. I'm like, really? I don't know. It's like a big part of the appeal for me with the bandana. I love it.

They're a really, really fun couple. I'm really glad that we got to speak to both of them. Recommend Shadow Cell, an insider account of America's New Spy War. It's very, very intense, and it really goes through all the twists and turns of their unbelievable life, specifically establishing this particular cell in an undisclosed country that is hostile to the United States, which they can't name. Okay, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's MyM. Biolix Breakdown.

She's going to break it down for you. It's Ph.D. or two. One, fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.