Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Part Two: UFOs In Religion: Ancient ‘Miracles’ May Have Been Alien Encounters | Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka

Episode Date: July 15, 2026

Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka — professor of religious studies, author of The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny — is here to answer one of the most controversial and fascinating questions of our time: what if many of humanity’s oldest spiritual encounters weren’t interpreted correctly at all?Dr. Pasulka breaks down:- Shocking similarities between alien abductions & purgatory that first pulled her into UAP research- Whether historical Catholic supernatural experiences would be interpreted today as UFO encounters- Why many researchers believe we need to radically rethink the concept of “aliens”- Physiology of UAP encounters and how experiencers may access altered states or different parts of the brain- Carl Jung’s theory that UFOs could emerge from the unconscious mind- Why belief in nonhuman intelligence is rapidly increasing, and why it may function as a modern religion- Reports throughout Catholic history describing encounters with nonhuman entities- Whether aerospace engineers and scientists are receiving “downloads” or ideas from nonhuman intelligence- Recent deaths and disappearances of scientists connected to nuclear and aerospace programs (Are they connected to UAP research?)- Why proof of nonhuman intelligence may NOT destroy religious belief- Why some people believe AI could be the antichrist, while others think resisting AI is the true danger- Whether governments are in a position to confirm historical religious events- Psychedelics, altered states, and historical encounters with nonhuman intelligence- Why certain people appear far more open to supernatural experiences than others- Hidden role sci-fi plays as a framework for understanding modern UFO phenomena- Real function of religion and how humanity uses belief systems to explain what science still can’t- Measurable physical & neurological benefits of prayer- Whether humanity is heading toward a religious revival, or if religion has become too politicized to recoverThis episode of Mayim Bialik's Breakdown explores the intersection of UFOs, religion, consciousness, AI, mysticism, Catholicism, neuroscience, psychedelics, government secrecy, and the future of human belief itself.If you’re interested in UAP disclosure, nonhuman intelligence, ancient religions, consciousness research, alien encounters, spiritual experiences, or the future of AI, this conversation will challenge everything you think you know!Pre-Order Dr. Diana Walsh Pasulka’s new book, THE OTHERS: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny, out July 28th: https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250394866/theothers/Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hi, I'm I am Bialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to part two of our conversation with Dr. Diana Walsh Pesulka, professor of religious studies at UNC Wilmington, the author of The Others, UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces guiding human destiny. We're going to talk about the connection between purgatory and alien abductions. What does the religious history tell us? As well, we're going to talk about, is the government in a position to disclose UFO information and what that will do to society. Are we actually ready? We also discuss how aerospace engineers and people who are building some of the most advanced technology pushing society forward believe that they receive that information and technological

solutions and breakthroughs from sources outside of their own mind. In addition, we're going to tackle technology. Is it the Antichrist or are those who oppose it some form of modern Antichrist? Also, if we are able to prove that non-human intelligence exists, will that disrupt people's religious beliefs? All of this and more. Here is part two of our conversation with Dr. Diana Walsh Pesulka. Miami-Bi-Alex breakdown is supported by Helix Sleep. We were so excited to hear that Helix wanted to partner with us.

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Go to helixleep.com slash breakdown for 20% off sitewide, 25% off Lux mattresses and 30% off elite mattresses. That's helixleep.com slash breakdown for 20% off sitewide, 25% off lux mattresses, and 30% off elite mattresses. Hillick sleep.com slash breakdown. Break it down. I want to circle back to some of the other ways and the overlaps between either religious, historical experience, and what people are experiencing as UFOs in the modern time. I was also thinking about, you know, this notion of purgatory, Maim, as you mentioned, like, they're seeing, you know, I'm not a religious scholar, so there's a lot I don't know, but like from what I do,

it seems like purgatory and being abducted have this weird similarity in description where you're taken and evaluated. Is there an overlap or similarity from your perspective? Yeah, so first I want to just make a comment about, the political aspects of religion. So this, in fact, was what got me interested in looking at the topic of alien abduction and, you know, UFOs, modern day reports of UFOs. So I wrote a book about the doctrine of purgatory, which has seen a decline in people practicing devotions to souls in purgatory. So young Catholics today, for the most part, don't do that. Whereas Catholics,

40 years ago would do that. So I wanted to find out what was the decline. Why did that happen? And part of what I did was I went to, like I said, archives, Catholic archives around the world. And I looked at reports of souls from purgatory that people believe that they were encountering and things like that. And so I started to see the similarities. I actually didn't see them at first. I just took notes. So they described them first, and then they provided a framework of interpretation. So here's an example. There was a nun in France. She was in her cell and a light would come down from the sky, would penetrate the wall of her cell and come into her room. And she was like, what's this? And she would tell the head of the convent, you know,

and they said, we don't believe you. Well, this happened so many times that finally the mother superior said, okay, I'm going to stay up with you and we're going to look at this and see what this is. And so she saw it also. So you already have the description before you have the interpretation. So what happens was that the mother superior says this must be a soul from purgatory. So the whole group of nuns, all of the nuns at the convent for three days, they prayed this soul back into purgatory. And this stopped the situation with the nun. Sorry, for those of us who aren't super skilled in understanding purgatory,

so you see a light that's in your room, and it's like coming through walls, and it's freaking you out. It's not just a light flashing. There's like, it's not like a light bulb wire situation. It's like coming through the wall. I'm picturing like Glinda the Good Witch before she manifests, you know, in... Yes. Yeah.

So I'm sorry. So why? And I understand that this doesn't have to be truth with a capital T. But for this group of nuns, why would the assumption be that it was a soul from purgatory? Why couldn't it be an angel from heaven? Because if it was an angel from heaven, it would behave differently because it would be, it would announce itself. There's a cultural framework in place. It's like what we know when we sit down to have dinner, we have ways of eating, right?

We don't just grab our food with our hands and smash it in our face. I had Ethiopian food last night and I did eat with my hands. Okay. So we don't usually do that. So the thing is that nobody tells you that there's no handbook of how to eat dinner, right? We just learn it from the people around us. So it's a cultural framework that's already in place. They are already aware of what angels are like.

Okay, got it. So this is not behaving like a typical angel, as it were. And so the idea, and I'm really, I'm asking legitimately because I don't know. The idea is that like this is like a soul. or something that needs to go back to where it's supposed to be? Did it have a negative connotation? Meaning, like, did it feel bad? And that's why it's purgatory related?

Well, it appears that she didn't want it in her cell at night. And so because they didn't know what it was, they just thought it was a soul from purgatory. And so they prayed and it went away. So that reinforced their interpretation. So you do have these kinds of things. So people do see things. Often they need to explain them, right, to themselves or to others.

And so they go with an explanation that is like a cultural framework. Today it would be a UFO. Well, that was a UFO or something like that or an alien. That's how people interpret it today. So from this kind of research that I did, I then had this big list of these records. And so I published my book. And I was like, wow, I wonder what these are. And I wonder if there's any, you know, there's patterns.

So I showed it to a friend of mine. And he's the one who said that it looked like, he said, you know, these look like Steven Spielberg films. Like this looks like, this looks like, these look like UFOs. And honestly, it was, I didn't, I thought, no, that can't be true. And so that's how I started to study UFOs. If we were to go back in history, I'm assuming that there are places in every religious text and in all of these reports for thousands of years of things that given the cultural framework were explained in a particular way. But if we look at them from a framework now of we have a situation where the government itself has admitted that there is research going into beings that we may not understand or experiences.

that we may not be able to explain what we have is our cultural conversation now opens up into the one that you're having in the others, right? What is actually going on? And, you know, we've just, we're still in the century or so of, you know, an entire movement of science fiction, which many of us grew up reading or, oh, Isaac Asimov or, you know, Orson Scott Cart. Like these are all amazing things that we can imagine. But what if science fiction itself is the cultural framework for a different understanding of what's possible? Yeah, I think it is, actually. And because it's so embedded within our upbringing and our childhood, all of us have seen Star Wars, right? All of us love it.

So we, it's part of our, like we use the language of Star Wars. you know, we know those kinds of things, you know, do, do not try, you know, these kinds of things. So this is, of course, so, you know, if we see something, we're going to then automatically look at it from the perspective that science fiction has provided to us. Okay. Before we get more into science fiction, never has this sentence been said. Let's go back to Ezekiel. So if we were to look at this as an example, and you do talk about this, as you know, one of the, you know, one of the, texts that if we reread it from a completely different framework, what are we actually experiencing that Ezekiel is writing about? So can you set us up a little bit? Like, who was Ezekiel? We do have extra, extra biblical sources that like this, he was a dude who wrote, you know, he was a prophet,

very important, obviously. But can you set us up? Talk a little bit about some of Ezekiel's visions and how we might be able to re-envision those visions. Okay, so Ezekiel is a prophet of the Hebrew Bible. Traditionally, he lived in the time period of before what's called third century Judaism, which is going to be what's called Second Temple Judaism. And he's going to be a person who is, who has an experience of, so the tradition that he's in is called the chariot tradition. So in Judaism, in Hebrew is called the Merkaba tradition, Merkaba being vehicle. And so this gets translated, say, if you're Greek, into the chariot tradition. So it's the Merkaba tradition. And the Merkaba tradition is a mystical tradition of Judaism,

which is a tradition that is about encounters with angels. Okay. And encounters with angels is dangerous. So it's not something that is undertaken lightly. You have to work on your character. And it appears to me, although I don't know this for a fact, I'm not a scholar of Judaism. So I can't authoritatively say that the people who studied in the Merkhamah tradition like Ezekiel had developed spiritual senses. Like there wasn't, you know, it's documented that this is going on in the School of Athens. But is it documented that, and by the way, this might be the same time period as Ezekiel. Yeah, Ezekiel was Babylon era. So even a little bit earlier. And, you know, just, again, I'm speaking as a, you know, a lay person, you know, what is known about the prophets

of our tradition, and I'm assuming about other traditions as well, is that these were people that weren't like other people, right? Meaning these were people who had access to things that other people didn't. That's why they were prophets, right? And whether it was, let's say, by modern distinction, you know, were they mentally ill? Were they having hallucinations, right? We can place all that on that, you know, when you think about shamans and indigenous, you know, cultures, right? These are people who are separate from the regular people in some way that we may not even understand, right? My and Beallix breakdown is supported by Cove Pure.

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That's covepure.com slash breakdown. Don't wait. That's C-O-V-E-P-U-R-E dot com slash breakdown. Mine Baleck's Breakdown is supported by Surf Shark. You know, most people, like me, use public Wi-Fi without thinking twice about it. I tell her not to. I've done it. Just like, oh, I've got that one text to send or read my emails quickly or spend two hours in the airport.

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One of the things I love most about our podcast is that we get to spend a lot of time here exploring big questions, questions about who, we are, what we believe, how we find meaning, and how people with very different perspectives can live together in community. As America celebrates its 250th anniversary, I've been thinking about one of the ideas that makes that actually possible, freedom of conscience, the freedom to practice a religion, the freedom to question a religion, the freedom to change your mind, or to have no religious beliefs at all. It's a uniquely powerful idea because it doesn't require everyone to agree. It requires that we respect each other's right to arrive at our own conclusions. The Freedom from Religion Foundation works to protect that principle by defending the

constitutional separation between religion and government, because when the government stays neutral, people are free to believe or not believe for themselves. As we reflect on America's past and imagine its future, this is an idea worth protecting. Go to ffrf.us slash breakdown or text breakdown to 511-511 to learn more and join the movement. Go to ffrf.us slash breakdown or text breakdown to 511-5-11. Remember, text breakdown to 511-5-11, help light the way forward. Message and data rates may apply. Yeah, they definitely are separate. They don't necessarily want to be, though. So, you know, I look at Jonah. He did not want the task that he had before him, but he did anyway, because he had to. So they do have, it appears that they have a spiritual sense.

And so the access that he has is that he's able to have. this experience of, we don't know what it is. But as you described angels earlier in the Hebrew Bible, you know, it looks like it has wings. I think it has six wings and it has, I think, four faces. And it's, you know, so it's a certain type of cherub. So I think Thomas Aquinas identified it as a seraphim. All right. So he sees this, okay? And he says that it is like a vehicle. Okay, he's talking about it like a vehicle. It's in the air. It's all on fire. He has a certain feeling about it. In the tradition, so along the same lines, there are other texts within the, in Judaism, right, associated with the Hebrew Bible, but are not part of the Hebrew

Bible. And so this would be like the Book of Enoch and so forth. So you have these extra texts that then go on to inform a tradition of angels and fallen angels. So good angels and bad angels, basically. And this is going to go on to inform early Christianity as well and the whole Christian tradition. So Ezekiel is a very important book because it is in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew Bible is authoritative to Christians also. They call it to Old Testament. And so this is something that a lot of people, you can't say, well, none of this happens in our

tradition, in the biblical tradition. Well, no, it does, actually. And there's a huge extra tradition that is informative to the tradition, but is not necessarily biblical. So that's what makes Ezekiel and his experience important. In mystical traditions and Kabbalistic traditions, this was a thriving, you know, kind of esoteric information. that was not meant for everyone. No, not, no. Yeah. It's dangerous.

Correct. It's very dangerous. And the notion was that it's not dangerous like, oh, we don't want women doing it, which was one of the rules. The notion was that the information about what is on the other side is potentially catastrophic to the human mind. Like that's literally. And that is also true of Plato, of Socrates.

These were not things to be taken light. Like the, it's funny, I was talking to my, my younger son, who's 17, and he's studying Plato, and he said the thought that, you know, that, that we are basically looking at a projection of reality, right? Which is this, the cave, right? The people in the cave. He said, that kind of freaks me out. And, like, that essence is why some of this kind of knowledge has been esoteric, right? Or we've dismissed it or we've put it aside. But the notion that, this is obviously what you're an expert in, the notion that we can revisit, right, the pattern of human history, because we haven't been alive long at all in the scope of the universe, whichever interpretation of creation you like, we are barely just here, right? We're barely visiting here. So the notion that we can go back and say, wait a second, there are always things in human history that are outside of our current explanation, understanding, and even consistent access. That's astounding. And what if UAPs, UFOs, these conversations of exceptional sightings, exceptional sensations, exceptional experiences, and a feeling that when this happens, you are never the same, what does it look like in our current vernacular to try and understand that?

It's fascinating. It is fascinating. And it's also happening at a level that's, that is unprecedented. Because if you think about it, it's being projected on screens everywhere. So the United States is disclosing, basically Plato's cave, right?

It's saying, we're in this cave, the United States government. And so this is really an interesting time, which is why I stuck with it. Is that how you see it? The government is now in a position to expose the projection of reality that we've all taken as,

true, but guess what? There's more. I don't think that, okay, so listen, the government is probably unaware of the allegory of the cave, right, which is also in the republic, all right? So some people in the government totally know about it, but most of them are not going to know about it. Okay. So, but the position is a powerful position. What's happening because of the infrastructure, the digital infrastructure, is that that knowledge is now disseminated. It's decentralized. It's, you know, they can't kill everyone, right?

So Athens killed Socrates, right? Got rid of the problem, okay? But look what happened. Writing took off. The dialogues, we still have the dialogues. We read them today. So now we have the internet. Now we have phones that are able to take video of things in the sky.

people are able to upload it on different social media. It gets viral, right? So we've got the ability at this point in time for masses of people to be exposed to the allegory of the cave. And what happens when something that's beyond human comprehension, which is what happens to the man who's taken out of the cave and he sees that he was in a cave and then he's going to think, oh gosh, am I going to go back and they might kill me? No, now we all see it. We're all the audience. We are all in the cave, and we're all being able to document the disclosure of what this man sees when he goes out. And so I think that that's pretty unprecedented.

And that's why I say that this is a new form of religion. And I don't mean it in the sense that, and it probably will get political. So when I say that the U.S. government is disclosing now, do I think that they're going to give us the truth? or are they going to give us their truth? So that's, yeah, that's where we get to a question. And I think that we're going to see what happens. It could be, you know, beyond, you know, what I think is going to happen is something that I don't think any of us can predict.

It kind of blows my mind to revisit, you know, possibly every instance of the foundations of Western civilization as we know it and to say, wait a second. And, you know, when we spoke to Brian Murareescu, who talks about, you know, kind of the secret religion that led to what we now think of as, you know, Western culture. We think of the formations of Christianity. We think of the body of Christ and the blood of Christ, right?

Like all of these things, there is a history to them that really is tapping into, gosh, religious structure. And I don't mean God. I mean, religious structure on what we have created is the best attempt, have to encapsulate things that are inexplicable. And religion, as you have said, is used over time to organize people. And yes, there are many benefits to prayer. And I'm happy to talk about prefrontal cortex all day. But as, you know, as Marx noted, it's also a really good way to control people and to keep them encapsulated. And it's a really good way to create borders. and, you know, as someone who comes from a tradition with a million and a half rules about what we don't eat and how we don't do this, like it also, like we do this and they do that. That's tribal, right? That's what tribes have done for, you know, for an enormous part of human history. But the notion that truth with a capital T is bigger than all of that, right? And anyone who's had a near-death experience that we've spoken to, people who have had transcendental encounters, people who have done a lot of psychedelics and have had encounters that.

sound a lot like these other things, there's something that's bigger than all of religion. There's a wisdom that's bigger than all of it. So we just keep trying to describe it. And I love this idea that we have the intersection now of the government's information about their own search for what is true and how it is colliding, right, with all of these other worlds. What do we think about the use of psychedelic ayahuasca, DMT, 5MEO, with the increased awareness of non-human intelligence. What have you seen and what have you seen maybe even historically that indicates that, you know, these may be pathways towards opening, are people finding access to that type of non-human intelligence in that way? So first, I'm aware of Brian's

work. I know him. He's a colleague. But I disagree with the history. So it's not as, in my opinion, it's Christianity and the early churches aren't, they weren't engaged in, you know, they weren't engaged in antigenes. So there were some, but it wasn't the, it's not historically correct to say that. The whole church comes from that. And by the way, there's so many different churches in the Christian and church, just like in Judaism. And by the way, Judaism is also a tradition that I'm actually my mother's Jewish and her tradition is Jewish. She's practicing Jew. Diana, that means you're Jewish too, but we don't have to talk about it. No, I know that. I'm aware of that. I'm aware of that. I'm claiming you as ours because you're

pretty fucking dope. Thanks. I appreciate that. And I have been claimed by lots of my friends. Okay. So the question of psychedelics is one that I'm asked about. Okay. And Certainly, within the history of traditions, especially if you look at indigenous traditions, here in the state's Native American religion, the Church of Native Americans. Peiote is an entheogen that they use ceremonially to connect to what they believe to be sacred. And you do see that in all kinds of traditions, in the Celtic tradition, you see this. And people are still doing it, absolutely. So it is part of a lot of religious traditions as a way to access quickly those states, those brain states. Certainly that is the case.

Although I would have to say that in some traditions, it's not, you shouldn't do that because that will then impede your ability to do it without the entheogen itself. So there's restrictions on that, just like you see restrictions on alcohol, restrictions on any kind of what is considered to be toxic for the body and so forth. Do you see any patterns or tendencies that these events, like the appearance of an angel or a UFO, happen during specific pivotal historical moments? I think that they do happen for different communities.

So what's really interesting is that you definitely see this with Apparitions of the Virgin Mary. So a lot of communities, now this isn't a global phenomenon. This is, you know, it is now. But it wasn't in 1800 or so forth. You know, the Virgin Mary appears in one specific place and it's for that community and the people of that religion. And it's because of something that you could say is very malevolent to the community itself, something that's either a political situation that they are being repressed for whatever reason. When communism was, you know, was spreading apparitions of the Virgin Mary appeared

in lots of different places. And it was specifically to, cohere that community, to make that community stronger in the face of communism. Oppression? Yeah, yeah, basically trying to get rid of that religion. So you do see these, now that we're seeing this all over right now, especially in the U.S., this kind of like, you know, lots of people talking about UFOs. That's really interesting. And I hate to say it, but I just don't have an answer for it.

So what's happening? I think that there are a lot of things that are happening, and I've talked about it in the others, others, that people in the 20th century, the early 20th century predicted would happen in the 21st century. And, you know, that is the transformation of humanity, really, the transformation of the human being into something that the human being wasn't before. So that's why what I did was I took the work of some Catholic visionaries like Teilhard de Chardon, who talked about the newest fear, which looks like the internet. And then I compared them with Arthur's C. Clark, a well-known science fiction author who talked about in his book's Childhood's End,

you know, the transformation and basically the extinction of Homo sapiens and transformation into another line of Homo sapiens. And so both talked about the same thing, which made me think that Chardon somehow influenced Clark, and I believe that's probably true. But yeah, so they both talk about that this time period, even Mary Shepardot. wrote a book about the 21st century being a complete transformation of the human being. What is the new human being? For Mary Shelley, it was a pandemic that in the 21st century would wipe out almost all humanity. But there would be pockets of human beings that would be left.

Okay? And her book is called The Last Man. And Mary Shelley, of course, is the first person to write science fiction in 1800, Frankenstein. Frankenstein, right, the modern Prometheus. But beyond Mary Shelley, we have Teilhard de Chardon, a paleontologist and a Jesuit priest of the early 21st century. And he describes a new human being. He calls this human being the ultra-human.

And the ultra-human is going to be part of a networked consciousness, the newest sphere that's beyond the biosphere sits up on our stratosphere. I think is how he describes it. It looks really weird, which is why his work was banned by the Catholic Church in the early 20th century because they were like, what are you talking about? You know, it looks so weird. But today it doesn't look so weird, right? A lot of people who create AI use the term Neuessphere.

He didn't coin it, but he utilized it. So he was part of a group of European intellectuals of whom some were really into space. and getting humans off the earth. So he saw the ultra human as this new type of human. But he also saw this within the framework of his Catholic faith. And he believed that this was going to be salvific. So he believed that humanity was going to actually reconcile the hatred that it has, you know, perpetrated on itself. And it was going to become something super, so something ultra.

Arthur C. Clark, though. So he takes this idea and shifts it to saying that in the 21st century, an extraterrestrial consciousness is going to abduct the children of Earth into a networked intelligence. And they were going to become something completely different. And their parents were going to be the last humans. Look at any teenager staring at their screen. No, I know.

been abducted into a networked consciousness. Yeah. Is that what you think has happened? Are we the last actual human beings? Although I'm being sucked into my phone on a regular basis. So maybe I'm failing. Mind B. Alex's breakdown is supported by mudwater. You know, Jonathan and I have gotten into this really great habit of drinking our mud water.

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cleaner energy, go to mudwater.com slash break, grab the starter kit, use the code break. You'll get 43% off. The frother alone is worth it. That's right up to 43% off with code break at M-U-D-W-T-R.com. After you purchased, they'll ask you how you found them. Please support the show and let them know that we sent you I think that there's truth in each of these representations, which is why they attracted me. I thought, wow, these people seem visionary. Obviously, Arthur C. Clark worked with Stanley Kubrick on 2001, a Space Odyssey.

And by the way, that title 2001, that's year one of the 21st century, right? That's year one. So basically, they're also predicting something. Now, what's interesting, what did they predict? They predicted two things. They predicted the coming of AI, which was how. And they also predicted the imminent disclosure of UFOs by the U.S. government, which was managing the disclosure. Those two things happened in 2001, which was created between 1965 and 1968.

I mean, the idea of the network could be twofold, really. It's naturally the AI network, the algorithms that we're all faced with every day and are running many aspects of our lives. But also it's the network of consciousness that we have become more aware to as humanity has increased a level of sensibility, as our cultural vernacular has increased through the AI networks. Information has shared. And we've been told more, hey, wait a second, something else is possible in the narratives and the narratives and and our understanding of, wait a second, there may be something outside of our five senses is possible.

People then increasingly become aware of that. They have experiences of that. That feeds back into it. So it's like both the energy, consciousness awareness and the algorithmic network happening simultaneously. Agreed. I don't think they had that language back then. So they couldn't discuss it like we can discuss it now.

But they were certainly, they certainly presented what looks like what's happening now. Also, in that vein, if this is happening more and more, and if these anomalous phenomenon are happening around major historical periods, we may be being told that this is more of an enormous historical period than we even realize. Yes, that was Carl Jung's interpretation of UFO. And so he wrote a book called, I can't remember, the myth of the flying saucer or something like that. But it was a great book. It's a great book.

And he wrote that in the 40s, I believe, came out in the 50s. And so he couldn't reconcile the fact that UFOs looked. He believed that they were part of the unconscious. But he also, in fact, he had to create a new term for them, which he called the psychoid. It was something in the unconscious that also had real physical effects. He's got a very interesting take on it. So in the beginning, he thought that the very image of a UFO, which is circular, he said that it was an archetype, a new archetype, they appeared like technological angels. And he said that this augurs in, this new way of being with technology, humans co-evolving with technology.

So he thought the UFO was an unconscious projection that humans, you know, have projected into the skies, in order to somehow come to terms with their new way of being technological. That's what he thought at first. But then it kind of happened, what happened to him actually also happened to me. So he then started to meet people from the Air Force and the government. And he started to realize that, oh, my goodness, there's more to this now. And he saw, they showed him things on radar, you know, that, you know, this, this unconscious projection actually has a counterpoint on radar. And so he was very shocked.

So he had a conversation ongoing, a correspondence with a physicist where they, and that physicists had these experiences. And so they together came up with the psychoid, which was this idea of something that is an archetype, but also has physical effects. This should comfort us. This is really not significantly different from what we talked about from texts from thousands of years ago, which formed the religious. cultural conversation that we have now, meaning when you get into a certain state, in particular,

in prayer, in meditation, you are entering into a different realm of consciousness. And in that state, you are able to access things that you cannot in your normal state. And I would argue, and this is sort of one of my reasons that I believe angels don't talk to me, there are certain people who do not have access to that. And yes, I know you can. learn the skills and we've had so many people on who are trying to teach me to drop in and blah, blah, blah. Yes, you can learn that. But there are people who are intuitively wired to be able to drop into that state easier. We're arranging an alien encounter for you any day now. They are able to access something and my belief, my hope, because, I mean, Dr. Posilke, I'm like, if I can't name it

and I can't test it in the lab, it is very hard for me to understand. I do, I do, I do, believe that within our lifetimes, or at least our children's lifetimes, we will find a way to better understand what it is about certain people that allows them to access this. And yes, those people are often our spiritual leaders, our shamans, they are the founders of great religions, right? They change the world. But it's kind of the same potential conversation that there are people who have access to something, right? And depending on... the cultural framework you place it in, it can have a completely different meaning. It can get you killed. It can get you, you know, disappeared, right? If you have this information. And I'm going to

ask, you know, recently there's been so many, some of them are anecdotal and some of them are real, you know, reports of suspicious disappearings, of scientists and of people who are looking into things related to disclosure. What do you make of that? Because this might be the first time in history that we can see in real time a cover-up that is attempting to keep this information from getting out. And I'm not saying that there's some truth that the government has and they won't let us have it, but there's a lot of suspicious activity surrounding the guarding of who gets to know what information. And when we see scientists that are linked to nuclear research and aerospace programs and who in many cases have connections, we have to kind of wonder, is this new era also one in which we are seeing in real time,

the powers that be saying, we don't want you to have this information? For several of those scientists, their information, I mean, they did want them to have that information, right? So that information was important to national security. I don't know what, like, you know, I don't know what's happened to them other than the ones that, you know, have been found dead. This isn't the first time, by the way, In the history of euphology in the United States, the most egregious example, I think, would be a physicist named Dr. MacDonald in the 1960s, who basically said that, you know, these aren't, we can't call this swamp gas.

We have to, you know, these are unexplained. And there was definitely a campaign to discredit him. and it had implications for his personal life and mental health. And, you know, he was, he was found dead. There was a shotgun near him, all right? So it was, you know, it was called a suicide. By the way, I noticed this when I started to study the topic of UFOs, that a lot of people did have information,

but you will never hear from them. So they don't want to be known for this very reason. reason. What is your understanding about the conversations we have about consciousness and about a place where information might exist in ways that, you know, we don't have access to, let's say, from our materialist perspective? And how does that play into, you know, the conversation about UFOs or UAPs? Yeah. So I'll go back to the statement you made earlier about, you know, certain people have access to this and, you know, why do they do, why do they? Certain people are able to see certain things that other people are not able to see. All right. Here's, here's an answer to that or just

kind of some observations. I have been reading the work of Ian McGilchrist and the split brain theory of, you know, that answers a lot of these questions about, you know, it doesn't give you the answer, what is it? What is this interface that the right brain has? So for those who haven't read his work, he basically states that the left brain is, you know, functions to help us learn language and, you know, looks at things and pieces of things, whereas the right brain is an attention center where it knows, you know, things that the left brain doesn't.

And it should actually be the one in charge because it has much more of a holistic, information about our environment. And so it appears that, and he has some good information, by the way, about scientists, which my work corroborates that. And I did that in 2012. When I first looked at our space program, I noticed that both in the Russian and the American space programs, that the scientists who were responsible for the rocket technologies and, you know, the really game-changing types of thinking that got us off Earth, they would get, they would get, they would get their information in ways in which Ian McGilchrist would explain that he said, you know, it's never the left brain thinking that gets you these game-changing, you know, kinds of ideas.

It's, you're doing something like you're watering your garden or something. And then the idea comes into your brain. This is exactly how it was described by the people who were the foundational, like Constantine Silcovsky, who's on the Russian side, Jack Parsons, who's on our side. Jack Parsons believed he was in touch with non-human intelligence. So did Chilkovsky. And by the way, so do people in the space program now who are creating these kinds of technologies that help us, you know, go further and so forth. Not everyone. So I would say that, yes, there are people who are able to do that. I do also know another person named Mark Stallman who has been using and creating AI forever, right?

So for at least 20 years with AI. But his godfather was Norbert Weiner, who is kind of like a father of machine learning and feedback loop kind of technology from the 1940s and 50s, who, by the way, is Jewish and started to write about theology after his work was utilized by the military. And he said that AI was really, it was going to, and this, he said it in the 19, basically in the early 1950s that he warned us about it. But getting back to your point, Mark Stallman thinks that everyone is born with the ability to utilize this part of the brain. But unless one cultivates it by 12 or 13, it's gone.

He says that he doesn't think that you can get it back. Yeah. So I do. I think there might be some type of neuroplasticity or grace or something like that, right? That's easy to say for someone who had a religious revelation at 11, which you did. You got in there right under the radar. Well, yeah, I guess so, right? I just want to reflect and punch something that you said here, which was that building

of aerospace believe that they're getting their information from non-local sources. Not all of them, Jonathan. Just some of them. Many who are believing, and these are people who are making groundbreaking technology moving the world

forward, believe that it's coming from somewhere outside of their own minds. Okay, so let me say this, so I don't get email hate from aerospace company people. Yeah, be careful here, Jonathan. So they do send me nice emails and they do like my work. All right. So this is how I would state this. Yes, a lot of them believe that, especially the early founders. Okay. And you can have, you have the words of a Constantine Chikovsky basically saying that angels exist and they're giving us this information. We just have to be receptive enough to understand their language. That's what he said. And then you have Jack Parsons, another kettle of fish. Constantine is Eastern Orthodox Christian. and then Jack Parsons is a cult. Okay, so, you know, his friend is Alistair Crowley.

And so, you know, he's kind of the American version. But he also says the same thing. I'm getting this information. I'm doing these rituals and I'm getting this information from non-human intelligence. He does not think it's angels. Okay. All right. He says either it's extraterrestrial or it's like the gods and goddesses of Babylon.

That said, I did meet people when I, I started this research in the in aerospace companies who were doing this type of research now. And they believe the same thing. When I started to research creativity and this was what led me to the awakened brain and this type of research, I recognize that very creative people often think that they don't own their ideas, that their ideas are pre-exist them and that they they somehow then. Receives. It comes into their brain.

Yeah, they receive it. Thank you. Yeah, they received these ideas, painting, songs, that type of thing. So, but. Cherubs with four faces. That's right. That's right. Yeah.

We're not a position to know yet. So they think they're objectively outside of them, whereas it just could be the brain state that they're in that then the frontal cortex dampens down and doesn't associate it with their ego. So they're not, you know, they're not claiming it as their own. they can't claim it. Yeah, and that's, that's a fascinating notion also, you know, I'm, I'm ever the cellular, you know, person over here. You know, it's kind of like when, when kids used to, you know, forgive me, describe what it was like to take mushrooms when we were all in junior high and high school. And it was like, it's like, everything is so clear and everything is so clear to me. And it's like, yeah, it's because like the thalamus is being told like, like, hush up all the other input, make everything super clear. Meaning like, you know, the question is, what? is the, what is going on, right, when we're interpreting information? Because that's still the shadow on the cave wall, right? So when it feels true, and this is true of love, lust, right?

Intellectual capability. If it feels true, what does that mean? What is, you know, does that, does that give it an ultimate truth if your body is creating or your brain is creating this state of truth? And for people like science fiction writers who are constantly open to that, and that flow state comes, it can feel so true, which is in another era, they would be our profits, right? They would be saying this is what's true. Yeah, exactly. One of the things that Peter Thiel has been quoted saying

is that people who are blocking the building of AI, he thinks are working in the shadows or for the dark side. He thinks a lot about light and dark. I'm curious about, you know, if he feels, I don't know if you have insight into this, if he feels like this technology is being given. Or is AI a form of the Antichrist, right? Is this the thing that is pulling us away from ourselves, from other people, from focus? Or is it the next phase of intelligence that just like writing we needed to receive?

Is that one in the same? I would argue that that's exactly what Satan would look like. It would look like, look like, look, look, look, look, look, look, it's going to be amazing, and we're going to make you live forever, and, like, we're going to be a cyborg. And, like, from my perspective, as, like, the grumpy mom, I'm like, I fear that. I fear it. Go ahead, Dr. Basilka, make us feel better. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, sad. I can't make you feel better about this. That's sad. Okay. I'll try, but I don't think I can. So, okay, so I do engage with Peter Thiel's. First, I don't know what he thinks about AI. Okay, so I just have to say that. I do not know the mind of Peter Thiel. But I do know what he said about the Antichrist, okay? And he's been talking about it a lot. And one of the things that he identifies is that it's a deceiver. Okay. And he's right. So if you look at the biblical passage, which most people would identify as like the, the, the idea of Apocalypse, it comes from the Book of Revelation, which is a Christian text. And it's informed, by the way, by Second Temple Judaism and the book of Enoch, because it's

filled with all kinds of angels and, you know, the interface of our world with the other world. Okay. So it's a visionary text. It's a visionary text. It's really an interesting book. Okay. That said, I happened to having, so I engaged with his conversation, and I thought, you know, if we look at the text that he was using to describe the Antichrist, I think that he didn't read them fully. I think that he forgot certain parts of some of the text.

So I'm talking about Lord of the World, which is a text that was written in the early, 20th century by a Christian, I can't remember his first name, but his last name is Benson. It's a great book about what's going to happen. Okay. And what's going to happen according to him is that first nation states will have no power against the encroachment of the Antichrist. The Antichrist has a particular type of power, but it's not waged through weapons. and it's not waged in the ways that nation states will wage.

And it's also super deceptive. It appears that if one doesn't, so it basically wipes out the knowledge of the interior state and the interior senses. It wipes those out so that people don't even know that they have them. And I think that we're in that time now where we do not know that we have. Like I told you, we've been completely secularized. even religions have so that we do not know that we have this spiritual sense. And our religions aren't teaching us about it for the most part. Some are, but for the most part, they're not.

And so, you know, so Peter Thiel gets right, the deceiver part of it. But I think that to fulfill the criteria if we were to say, and I'm not saying this, okay, I'm not saying this is that AI is the Antichrist. What I'm saying is that if we were to choose an antichrist today, it would definitely fulfill the criteria because it is, it literally is shaping the brains of youth and people who use it, even older people who are utilizing it. And the interior sense, those things associated with the interior sense, like empathy. It's taking them away.

Yeah, it is just erasing those. Now, that doesn't seem like a good thing. So I don't, yeah, so I hate to say that. But no, I don't think that's a good thing. You heard it from Dr. Basulka. It's interesting because his position is anyone who opposes the advancement of artificial intelligence is the antichrist. That's me. He believes that the technology is gifted by some divine presence.

I'm paraphrasing here, but he believes that it's meant to save humanity and that, you know, the next phase of humanity will be enabled through this technology. So it's interesting that, you know, there can be a totally different way of viewing it. There's no one way to view it. That's the problem. It's just like water. So we need water to survive, but water can be a tsunami. Okay. So he could be right.

AI could possibly, I love AI. It helps me do a lot of things. It could possibly in the hands of people who know how to use it, it could possibly benefit us in comprehensible. way that we cannot predict. Agreed on that. But what is doing right now to people who sadly are not aware of what is doing to them is bad. It's not a good effect. Well, and I think also, you know, not to like be this person, we don't know like good, bad, like these are human terms, right? If you want to like take the like true, right, religious perspective, only God knows. Some power

greater than all of us is in charge of everything. But what we're setting up right now is we do. We have this, you know, it's an existential battle going on between what we see is progress that could be viewed as this incredible miracle and progress that can also be viewed as the beginning of the end of so many things that make us human. And I think that's where religion does become politicized. right? Because then you get one particular religious perspective that says, well, our book says that this is right or our God says that this is the way. And I think what's interesting is, in many places, this is, it's like a secular fight of a different order. Well said, I'm curious if as a person who has studied religion so much, do you believe in God as you understand it?

So yeah, I absolutely believe in God. I believe that there is a, it's Christianity as Christianity was practiced in the first century in my interpretation. It was influenced by Socrates and Plato. That philosophy influenced it. And it was also, you know, Jesus is Jewish. So it's a combination of a certain type of. Judaism, which is a second temple Judaism. And all of the, and like the disciples, like this was a group of Jews, meaning the framework was what if we, you know, form something new, but the entire structure, like, there wasn't Christianity yet. That's right. Yeah. So this is a, it's a living form of a religion that, I think, still exists today.

But doesn't necessarily exist. you know, let's just say yes, I believe in God. In that belief, and this may tie back to your experience when you were blindfolded and brought to New Mexico, how does that relate to your belief or not in extraterrestrial or non-human intelligence? I think that just as there are species that we haven't discovered yet, right, on Earth and in the ocean, when we discover them, we're not going to be horrified. And we're not going to say, this is going to change my religion. Okay?

No, I believe that the cosmos is like the ocean, right? So there are probably a lot of things out there that we're going to be surprised by. But does it fundamentally change my belief? It doesn't. And I think that I do get asked a lot by various types of people, journalists, you know, people in the government, so forth. They say, what's going to happen to people? who are religious when we disclose extraterrestrials, you know? And I always say they already have a category for that. So I think they'll be fine. I think secular humanists might have some issues,

but I think religious people will be fine. So I don't think disclosure is going to disrupt, you know, religious people. That's such a good point. It's kind of like religious people already have the structure not only for, you know, what you're experiencing, but for the possibility of things that we can't understand. You know, when I explain to people that, like, like my concept of God is that it's a concept so large that you can't even understand it. That gives a lot of grace, right? There's a lot of grace in that because it does allow me to slot in both, you know, Newtonian physics and the theory of relativity as well as quantum theory, right?

It can hold everything. But for people, and this is why, you know, Jonathan, a lot of times we'll talk to materialists. And I say to them, you sound more fanatical than I am as a person of faith about the fact that there is no God or there's nothing that we can't, you know, understand that we can't measure. So I think that's actually really, really interesting. The biggest surprise, I think, to all of us would be some confirmation of a larger understanding that there is an access to something bigger than yourself. In many cases, it may be a plane of consciousness. It may be access to different kinds of communication. It could be telepathy. It could be, you know, whatever intuition means that,

you know, hopefully one day I'll learn. But I think that, that's a really interesting, you know, Jonathan, it's kind of like when we started this podcast, and it was the middle of COVID, and people were kind of freaking out and having anxiety. And those of us who were no strangers to anxiety said, oh, we know how to roll with this. Like, I'm anxious all the time. But people who had never experienced anxiety were kind of really like on their back foot, like what is happening here? And I kind of see this the same way with disclosure. If your God is big enough. If your concept of the universe is big enough, nothing should devastate the structure that you have created for what's true for you. That's right. Yeah. Tell people where they can learn

more about you. Obviously, you've had so many incredible appearances and we're just so thrilled we got to talk with you. Where can people learn more about the others and all of the other things? Yeah, sure. Okay, so I do have a substack. So people can go to my substack. It's called God Send. And it's D. It's D.W. Pesolka at Substack. And I regularly write about current events and religion and technology there. And also they can get the others or any of my books wherever books are sold. Amazing. Thank you so much, Dr. Pesolka. We really appreciate your time. Thank you. It was wonderful to talk with both of you. This is one of those episodes where we got to talk about so many different aspects.

And like, my brain is still trying to put them all together. Like one concept is that experiencing communication either from UAPs or things you can't explain, that that is its own kind of religious identity, right? It's a new sort of religion. That's kind of one thing. The other thing, one of my favorite points she made was that every cultural context explains unexplainable things according to what is appropriate for that time, right? but in theory, the notion of aliens visitation from interdimensional, like all of that may have

always existed and people just called it different things based on what was appropriate. Like the nun story, right? I don't know why it had to be something from purgatory, but I don't have purgatory in my consciousness. Yeah, what's in your consciousness will be the filter through which you see the world and interpret whatever that is. I think a lot of people can get hung up on the word religion because it is less about the teachings of a particular inner world and more about the structure and institution of religion. And we're separating those in this instance.

Right. Well, and this would be, you know, if we are to believe that these kinds of experiences are on par with other experiences that are, let's say, outside of the realm of this level, of consciousness that we're now interacting in, then there's no reason to think that experiences now would be any different from experiences four thousand years ago. It's the same. We're all the same. And, you know, yes, I know brains change.

They don't change that much. What changes is what God you believe in, what you're told to believe in, what you're told is acceptable, and science fiction blows that wide open, which is another concept that Dr. Peselka talked about, right? Science fiction says we have access to dreams and imagination, which Jeffrey Criple would say, it becomes true when you think it, right? Yeah. How is our imagination the precursor for creating our reality?

We think it's imagination. It's things being placed there and downloaded, right? It's all in kind of how you frame it. And in all sincerity, you know, not speaking flippantly, if you've ever heard someone who, let's say, is in a psychotic. state or someone who's having nonlinear thinking or someone who let's say is in a schizophrenic episode or something like that. Like there is often, and we talked about this in the Premonition Bureau, right? Like we talked about how do you, when someone is not operating in the plane of kind of cognition that most of us have access to, right? They may be wrong, but they also may be right. I'd love to jump on to Substack and unpack early childhood spiritual experiences to see how many people Before 11 or 12. Before 11 or 12 when our intuition and our insight is a little bit wider, less clouded by the constructs of modern society,

how many of us have had experiences that either shape us or sometimes that we move away from but revisit. Is it interesting area of exploration? A very, very quick search on the innerwebs says that brain development in this pocket of time, right? Between 11 and 13 has a tremendous amount to do with kind of like language processing and creativity and how that moves into something more concrete. This is the window she's talking about. And if you think, again, historically, you know, this is a prepubescent time, right? In theory.

And yes, some people, you know, go into puberty before. But in theory, we're talking about a period of time. It's the last bit of kind of innocence, right? Intellectual innocence before you're then sort of corrupted, if you like the logical song by Super Tramp, you can listen to that as your soundtrack for this ending. You know, that's when you become logical. So if we can catch it right before that, right? Which is also interesting because, you know, in many traditions, there is a right of passage, right? In Judaism, it's 12 for girls and 13 for boys, right?

In many traditions, it's also like this is your last time that you have access to something before you enter the world of, you know, maturity. And in many cultures and for most of history, you were likely married off probably pretty shortly after that. Jonathan, can you think of anything that happened in your 11 to 12 region that seemed to signal, you know, some final access to something before you became a man? I don't think it was in that region, but I do remember a height of creativity as a younger kid engaged in a ton of imagination. I was watching a TV show recently that, like, they had wrestling figurines and the kid was just like playing with them and making up narratives and, you know, how much of that is. based on just like shows you've watched. But I would like be on the basketball court and I would be like, it's this player and this much time

and I'd be on the ice and there would always be stories of like, oh, Wayne Gretzky's doing it. I was definitely not a Wayne Gretzky style hockey player, but, you know, it's like a countdown and five seconds left and it was just like always something. It was so active. I think this would actually be a great conversation also for us to have on Substack.

you know, I started acting at 11 and a half professionally, so I'm also wondering like, gosh, what bit of something, right, was I tapping into when I kept begging my parents. Like, I want to be, I want to be this creative person in this way. I think it's very interesting. And I do think it's a very, you know, it's an important part of, you know, of life, even outside of sort of, you know, Western culture as we think of it. So, yeah, definitely head over to Substack. Also, please make sure we say this, you know, every time because it's really, really meaningful for us to communicate this. Please subscribe. It makes a huge difference for us. So please make sure that you're subscribed anywhere that you listen or watch. Anything else, Jonathan?

Well, that's it. See you next time. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my and biolics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to. to break it down. MindBialx breakdown is supported by Elastique, where science meets style in wearable wellness. Elastique athletics is designed for daily life, travel ready, workout optional, and beauty enhancing. Elastique fits into your routine with zero extra effort.

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