Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Paul Scheer: I Was Too Passive

Episode Date: June 11, 2024

Paul Sheer (hilarious actor, filmmaker, and podcaster) is here to break down the pitfalls of self-diagnosis, the therapeutic power of acknowledging anger, and the significance of agency.   He opens up like NEVER BEFORE about his abusive childhood, from how his parents managed to secretly get divorced while he was a kid and how his family secrets impacted his ability to trust into adulthood, to what it means to speak your truth even if it betrays the narratives of others and how he was able to release his anger in order to move forward.   He also answers the important question: Does therapy dampen your creativity??   We also discuss: - His late ADHD diagnosis, including his experience with medication and what triggers his spirals - Silver lining of his childhood trauma: Using it to connect with others & how it allowed him to be a better husband and father - How his family’s need to “control the narrative” led to emotional struggle and passivity - Origins of his long-running and widely popular podcast, How Did This Get Made?, and its unexpected impact on the Fast & The Furious franchise - His collections and how they help him connect with his past - Importance of surrounding yourself with creatively challenging people - Healing Nature of Black-and-White Thinking   PLUS Mayim opens up about her love for Nicolas Cage!   TUNE IN to this hilarious, heartfelt episode today!   Paul Scheer's new memoir, Joyful Recollections of Trauma: https://www.paulscheer.com/my-book   BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I come out of a situation where no one was there to protect me multiple times. I did go to a therapist. I got two or three sessions in. She's like, I'm going to give you this baseball bat. And it was like a yellow wiffle bat. And she was like, I want you to let out your anger. I want you to like beat the shit out of this couch. Like just beat this couch.

And I felt like, what? No, fuck that. I'm not being this guy. I felt stupid. I felt like stupid like even doing that exercise. And I was like kind of just like doing it, but I couldn't really manufacture it. But what she kind of tapped into was I had this voice. I had this anger that was there.

And she was really worked on giving me that freedom to find those levels. And you know, when I say anger, like that's a part of it. But it was also part of like self-respect. Like the idea of like I can stick up for myself and not and it's okay if people don't agree with me. It's okay if this thing is not popular, right? I could not go back to therapy, right? I could do whatever I wanted. I had autonomy.

I had power. And I think I'd been so used to doing just what everybody else wanted to keep everything even that just the acknowledgement that I had anger started this process of, healing that started me to be able to speak about this thing, how I felt about it, how I, what's going on? Why am I mad? It's okay to be mad. It's okay to have opinions. It's okay. And that was really the beginning of it for me. And again, it wasn't like something that just clicked and was like, oh, and tomorrow I'm better. It was years of experimentation. Being in touch with that was the beginning of just understanding who I really was and not who I was in a reaction

to other people. She's going to break it down for you Because you know she knows a thing or two And now she's going to break down So break... Hi, I'm I'm Bialik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown.

This is the place where we break things down So you don't have to. You know, I think today we're breaking down How to be authentic. If I had to summarize what he's talking about, how to move away from people-pleasing And find out what you really need. The he being Paul Shear.

He's a comedian. Screen Actors Guild Award-winning actor, filmmaker, and podcaster, you might know him from his 14-year podcast, How Did This Get Made, or the numerous appearances on 30 Rock, V, Fresh Off the Boat, The League. Paul Shear has written a book, a memoir called Joyful Recollections of Trauma. And I'll be honest, this was not the book that I thought Paul Shear was going to write. He's known for telling awesome stories about his family and his childhood. And he decides to really peel back a layer.

here. And I mean, I feel like we get as close to understanding how to transform yourself from a person who cannot advocate for yourself to someone who can in this conversation. What he said that I think really is the essence of it is the idea of agency, feeling like he could access agency at a time previously in his life where he felt like he had none. Can you tell us why agency is so important? I think a lot of us struggle with a notion of agency, you know, I think that it's something that if you've been raised in any sort of complicated house, you probably picked up elements of where can I insert myself, where can I advocate for myself, you know, over time, not having agency or not understanding your own role in your

own agency can lead to a lot of unhealthy patterns. It can lead you to not advocate for yourself in romantic relationships, at work. You know, it might show up in like being that person who's always okay with everything and thinking you are okay. with everything until maybe you realize, oh, wait a second, maybe I do have opinions. And the notion of being able to have agency and to take ownership of decision making, it's an important part of maturing. And for some of us, it doesn't happen until our 20s, 30s, 40s, or even later. And I think Paul's a really great example of, you know, having kind of a rocky path in understanding where his agency fit, you know, using anger, using withholding emotion. And then finally really,

you know, kind of coming into his own, which. I think we really see paralleled with this kind of incredible career that he's had as a creator of so many different kinds. So very excited to welcome Paul Scheer to The Breakdown. Break it down. Hi, hi. How are you both? We're good. I mean, trying to interview you literally caused solar flares to shut down the universe. I mean, that was it. I mean, you know, that I try to make a big entrance and that was, uh, it was, apparently the Los Felas spectrum outage was caused by somebody who cut a wrong.

That's what I understand. Yes. That was a talk on the social media side of it all. Well, all day I was telling my children it was because of solar flares because they think I'm a crazy hippie and I'm also a neuroscientist. So I always try and tell them like, I don't talk about science things unless there's actual science. Solar flares can cause tech disruption. This isn't like me and the universe communing. I know. Well, this is a really interesting thing. I feel like we got to see this really interesting moment where everyone was trying to find, I mean, they're not Northern Lights or are they Northern Lights? They're, they're solar flares, right? I mean, people come on calling them Northern Lights, but I'm like, I don't think that's Northern

Lights. It's just solar flares. Well, I mean, I think of Northern Lights as like something you see like in the north of the planet, but then people were like, but if you're in Sacramento, that's far enough north. I know, I, I, there was a, I think people just want to, have something to post and they thought we had spun off our axis and a little bit, they got to see these things. Well, but I think there was something to the fact that, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, Valerie knows a lot about this and was extremely excited when the power went out. I've never seen Valerie as excited about anything in the years I've known her as when the spectrum outage happened because she's like, I think it's because the solar flares is happening.

Like, Mother Nature's rebelling. I wanted to believe it. I liked it. But I do think that these lights were caused by solar flare things. Yeah, I think that that actually was a thing. They have to be. Yeah. But I want to have it be known that Paul does not want that referred to as the Northern Lights. You just want it to be the lights. I saw a lot of people posting it.

And it definitely sent off like a little bit of a spitey sense. I was like, that's not right. But a beautiful picture nonetheless. And, you know, my, I was talking to my dad. and my dad was out there trying to chase down the northern lights. And he didn't find him. My older son, as I like to talk about a lot, my older son is colorblind. So when you show him pictures of, you know, these lights, like, I don't know what he's seeing,

but he seemed really into it. So then he's like, maybe we should try and photograph it. And I'm like, yes, let's do that. Then I was thinking of all the cruel ways I could tell him, yes, you're seeing. Northern Lights. It's happening. It's really happening, Miles. I am slightly, I am slightly colorblind. And the amount of like shit I get for it from, like, but you can't see that.

I'm like, well, I don't, I don't understand why you're giving me a hard time about what I can and cannot see. What's your colorblindness? I believe it is in the range of purples. So it's not like, I, you know, my, I will say to my wife, oh, that looks green to me or that looks purple. Like it's in that part of the color wheel. Yep. She's like, that looks green to you?

And I'm like, yeah, yeah, we've gone over. But it's like, like, whoa, whoa. I'm like, it's not stopping my life. I mean, I can see red, a yellow. I think I see purple and green. Like I see different colors. I feel like it's stopping your life. But I can't get into the vanity gritty of it all.

I mean, who knows what your life and career could have been like? had you been able to see all of the wavelengths. I got fascinated about how people see things lately. I've been thinking about that a lot. Like, your blue, my blue might be different. And it has nothing to even do with colorblindness. I don't know. It's like we, I love that idea that we can have very different ways of seeing the world

in front of us. It's interesting. You mentioned that because that notion of perception, you know, it's not just sort of what we actually perceive in terms of colors. but, you know, do you see what I see? Do you feel what I feel? It's a larger question of perception, which I have particularly enjoyed exploring

through my colorblind experiences with this child. I mean, he's 18, and we never told him that there are actually jobs that you can't have with certain kinds of colorblindness. Right. Because, like, when you mentioned the power outage was caused by someone clipping the wrong wire, you'd hate to send in a colorblind person

and tell them to clip the green wire. Yeah, you can't. It's a red and green wire. Yeah, this is it. You don't want them on the bomb squad and you don't want them doing work for a spectrum. I think they can't do surgery. I think it's like you don't want someone with the scalpel on the artery. Anyway.

Yeah. It's a very like, it's an interesting thing because, you know, you can hide it. You can't hide bad eyesight, right? Bad eyesight, you know, there's a, but, you know, have you ever been? I know I've never been asked to just determine. colors. Right? So I could go through medical school. I could go through all these different things. No one's ever going to be like, okay, now it's the colorblind section of this test. You know, like that is, you know, we let him up. My grandfather, my grandfather was an immigrant to this

country. He was colorblind. He was a tailor. Oh, wow. This is not a great profession to be colorblind in. And we like to say, this is why we didn't hit it big in America because he was colorblind. And when I, when I discovered that my son was colorblind and we were able to trace it because it's inherited through the mother and through my grandfather is where we got it. Right. My, my aunt said, well, he didn't really speak English very well. So we just thought he didn't know all the colors. But it turns out he was colorblind. He was a tailor people. He worked in a sweatshop. I mean, one of the, really one of the best professions to have as a person who doesn't speak the language, because you can, there's a, there's a just a general way of,

we understand, it's length, it's measurement. It's like, you don't have to communicate. It's, we got it. But if you need to know what color something is, you might move up the ladder. He should have just done form aware, just black suits. That's it. Miami-Bialx breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get

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to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. and after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my and Bialics Breakdown to help support the show. I want to talk about your book, which is called Joyful Recollections of Trauma.

And I have it right here. I'm going to ask a question from the introduction, which I know when I speak to authors and I say something from the introduction, you're probably like, oh, she just read the introduction. I read the whole book. I don't care. I will ask you questions from all sorts of pages. I'm not worried about anything. You said something in the introduction that really, like, it really struck me.

And I kept waiting for you to come back to it, but maybe it's not a thing, but I want to ask. You talk about collections and how you used to like to collect things. And you have very specific collections that you talk about. But what I wanted to ask about was, was this ever part of sort of a personality feature of yours that was like, I'm a person who wants everything organized specifically? Is this something that followed you into? later life because you talk about ADHD, like you talk about a lot of aspects of you, but I loved your organizational brain and how it seemed to work when you were younger. And I was just curious.

Is this like a Paul thing all the time? Yeah, it definitely does. You know, I think that like, you know, that the story of collections for me, I have these like little stereolite boxes are basically Tupperware. And I, and since I was a kid, I've been putting stuff in, you know, in some sort of stuff Tupperware container, you know, whatever it was. It's like just these mementos from my past. And I think, you know, in many ways, the book is like this collection of these stories, like these, you know, these things that are in my boxes, you know, whether it is, you know, an autograph from Christopher

Wacken or a name tag from when I worked at Blockbuster. It's sort of like this idea that I think I held on to these mementos from my life. I think part of it is a little bit of a control thing, you know, that I, that I would have something to look to in these moments of, you know, chaos or in these moments of, you know, fear that would kind of bring me comfort. So I kind of surrounded myself with this. And so, you know, the book is, in a way, like a, like one of my boxes. If you go in my garage right now, there is a very organized garage and a giant rack that has about maybe about like 25 boxes. And it's everything that I've ever, you know, school newspapers from when I was in fourth grade, birth certificates, like report cards, movie ticket stubs.

I have like my first concert in there. It's kind of like is a version of my life, like in these boxes. And I'll go through them occasionally and see things. And it's just, oh, right, I remember that. And I think part of my process of writing this book was finding these things and talking about these things, things I haven't really talked about or things I look back on. So yeah, I think it is something that's very much, I have a box right here in my house. I kind of fill them up and then I bring them out to the garage. Like they get full up. Now they get full up with like certain things my kids do that I really love that I don't want to like throw in the trash. Because let's be honest, when your kids create a lot of art, I'm going to keep one of eight of those, you know,

and really after about a year, you know, one of 20. So it's like, you know, I think you got to keep on calling it back. But yeah, like I just love, I think I just love having these like little ways to kind of connect with my past. It makes me feel good. It's weird, you know, if it's a breakup journal. No, it's very interesting.

You're kind of known for, you know, telling stories about your family and that's something that people have enjoyed hearing. And there was a little bit of wondering if be careful what you wish for, you know, in terms of people wanted more of you and you were able to open up more of you. And what this book is, is there's a lot of funny in it. There's a lot of interesting. There's a lot of how Paul became Paul. And there's a lot of really hard stuff in it.

I wonder, was there a version of this book where you were like, let's just tell the fun stuff? Or did you feel like if you're going to open it up, you wanted to really open it up? I think the book that I wound up writing is not the book that I intended to write in the sense that, you know, for 14 years on how did this get made? I'll launch into a story for my childhood very organically, not planned, just out there. And, you know, it's, and I'll tell this thing about like, oh, yeah, my grandma told me about this random butcher who, you know, would break into people's houses and take kids and chop them up into chop meat. And the way they caught him was, you know, mom was making a

hamburger one night for dinner and the chop meat looked up at her and said, Mommy, you know, and I look at like June and Jason, I'm like, wait, what? I'm like, yeah, just like, you know, the butcher

kills the kids into chop meat. And they're like, that's horrifying. And I'm like, oh, I guess, right? And, you know, so there was a part of me as like, oh, I should just kind of just like really think and like, to your point, like look in those boxes and kind of feel like, what is, you know, what are some more

of these fun stories? but then I realized like anecdotes are fine and they're fun and they're really good for a podcast or whatever you're talking about but a book seems to need to carry a little bit more weight. So I kind of sat down and was like, let me write these stories in a way that I've never really done it before. Like reveal a little bit more behind the story, tell a larger part of it because yes, there are these things that people are horrified by and I'm like, no, that's the funniest thing. The horrifying thing is over here.

You know, and so it started very organically. I just was writing them. And my first batch of stories that I wrote, before I even sold a book or even had an agent, were just that. They were loose. And they were just fun. And my book agent was like, I love these. He's like, but go deeper.

And I really just took that note knowing that I could edit anything I wanted to. And I did. And I just jumped into it. And I was like, all right, this is interesting. And it started to become its own thing and not to be overly art. about it, but it felt like something that was always revealing its face to me. I didn't even really know what it was going to be until it just started to kind of craft itself, which is a really fun process. And, you know, I think that, you know, as an actor, and you know this too, it's like,

there's parts of our life that we have to kind of keep separate, or I like to keep separate. And everyone has their own ways of doing that. And I felt like this part of my life, I haven't shared, but not because I wanted to keep it private. It was just because I just had been so ingrained not to talk about it. And so, yeah. That's, well, and I think that's sort of, that's where I wanted to sort of, you know, have you keep taking us. You know, there's, there's a notion that you share in the book about how sharing your

own story, you know, can in some ways betray your parents' narrative, meaning there's a sort of unspoken code in families where, um, where, um, there tends to be, as there was in your family, secrecy and things that were, you know, private. Private. We keep it private. We don't tell. Correct. So can you talk a little bit because I think that's something that, you know, a lot of our listeners can probably relate to.

You know, we may not all get the opportunity to write a book like you did, but what does it mean to speak your truth, right? When it might feel like you're actually betraying the story you've been told to tell. I think that, you know, in tackling this book, I wanted to do two things, which was, I wanted to tell my story. It's like my, it's my recollections of my childhood, right? And so I didn't talk to anybody else. I just went about it very much in a vacuum and talked to my wife. I didn't talk to my parents. I didn't talk to anybody.

I just kind of wanted to see, like, what I came up with. You know, what are these things that I remember? And in that process, I could be as brutal as I wanted in the sense that I could talk about things that aren't in the book. But if I knew if I could put everything on the page, then I could step back and start to pick apart what needs to go in there, what doesn't need to go in there. And I made a decision very early on to be like, this is my story, not my parent's story. So I'm not going to go and give you their, I can tell you a little bit of what I think, but I'm not here. to analyze them. I'm not here to set up their story. This is their side characters in mind. And that helped me kind of not feel like I have to tell everything, right? I can let them be

themselves. I am also, you know, look, I understand that while I had these conversations with my parents about my childhood and all this sort of stuff that went on, we've talked about this stuff, but their friends might not know. And I think at a certain point, you have to ask yourself this question, like, well, am I living my life or am I living the life that my parents want me to live? And if I'm not betraying them in a way that, like, when my parents committed, you know, triple homicide, you know, I'm not like, you know, I'm just, I'm talking about like this. And I think I'm looking at them with this eye of respect and, and questioning, but also admiration, too. It was a tough balance. But I think that part of this was just kind of taking back my narrative and going

like, oh, as I move forward here, I want to be able to have this be a part of my story. I don't want to hide this anymore. I don't want to have to be like skirt around it. It's okay for it to be known. One of the most interesting things that you talk about, about the way you grew up, you know, comes 168 pages in. And it's about when your parents broke up. And you describe the way your parents negotiated that. Can you explain what your parents did after they broke up?

So my parents got divorced when I was three years old, but unbeknownst to me. What they kind of did was they didn't want, I think they felt very much aware that this could really, you know, be a big blow to me as a kid. And so what they decided to do was to pretend to be married. I don't know if they did this to their friends, but they did it to me. You know, my parents slept in different bedrooms. I would, every now and then I have these memories, these small memories of like catching my dad like in another room, asleep in bed and like, well, what's going on? And, you know, and asking my mom, like, why was dad in that room?

And she's like, oh, our bed is broken. So he can't sleep in this bed. And while that's a perfect metaphor for divorce, you know, I was like, oh, okay, but it did stick out weird to me. And then it grew as the years past where my dad would actually, be living in an apartment and driving out in the morning to get there by the time I woke up. And I started to realize, I've never seen my dad in his pajamas. I don't see my dad in his pajamas.

You know, and like, you know, these things. And I think in a way, it's really beautiful that they did this. They tried to protect me. They tried to make me feel like I had this support system that, you know, and it's kind of a slow burn. But in the other part of it, it kind of made me feel like I was living this Truman show. Like, I think that for a long time, the effects of that were really weird. Like, oh, is everyone telling me?

me the truth. Like I'm used to, I had for multiple years this lie. I was living in this complete lie. And I think it made me distrust certain things around me, you know, which is interesting. You know, and I think as I was reckoning with a lot of things as I was getting married and having kids, I was looking back on these things. Like what was holding me back from committing or what was holding me back from wanting even to talk about marriage. You know, I came from this abusive household. My mom and I escaped that and was very triumphant. And it was sort of like this idea like, oh my gosh, we are out. Good. Let's never talk about it again, but not actually dealing with the ramifications of that. And, you know, this book to me is representative of the work that I've done

as somebody who has been to therapy, has done work on myself, have asked myself my own questions. I didn't want this book to be therapy. I wanted the book to be like, oh, this is kind of how I incorporated all this sort of stuff. So it is a, you know, it's interesting when you look back at things because I make mistakes as a parent. I know I do. And what will stick out to your kids? What will be that thing where your kid goes, you called me an idiot? You call me a jerk. You know, whatever it is. I go, I don't know what will be that thing. We're going to mess up our kids. I know that. I try not to. But, you know, and that's why I think I also have like a lot of sympathy for them too. And I just want to give you an opportunity to clarify the,

the abusive situation was not with your dad. Right. Yes. Your parents, so your parents, at a certain age, your parents formally separated. Yes. And how old were you when that happened? So basically, my parents got divorced. My mom and dad got divorced when I was three.

We kind of moved out of that house when I was about five or six. And then within those years, and this is where, like, my kid logic, I was like, oh, how do I pull this all together? Like we, my mom got remarried to this guy, kind of this commercial truck driver who carried himself in, they always describe it as like he looked like he was coming off a bender. Like he was always kind of permanently hung over. He had this energy to him, a very heavy energy. And so that was where my mom and I existed in this like abusive relationship, which, you know, honestly for a long time too, I didn't even understand to call it abusive because

it was so routine. And I think that's an interesting thing, too. It's like, we all get used to the way that things work. And as a kid, you're like, you just go like, oh, that's, that's, that's, that's this scenario. That's what I'm going through. So kind of even talking about that and wrestling with that a little bit as well. This is, you know, some of the, you know, the most painful parts of the book. You know, you describe really with with a lot of specificity and a lot of real eloquence, kind of that double bind that you live in when you're living, you know, under abuse like that. And I think what really, I mean, I had a lot of questions as I was reading it because, you know, I wondered, you know, it's one thing to write about, let's say, your parents,

but I wonder that experience of sort of, it's a confrontation as a writer, you know, to be able to put into words the abuse that, you know, not only the abuse that, you know, not only the abuse that you experienced, but, you know, you tried to get help and could not. You know, that broke my heart when your dad, you know, kind of, you said your dad didn't know how to deal with it. Your mom, obviously, I mean, it was a very dramatic escape that you and your mom made. And you were not, you know, you got to sort of confront this person. And I had so many questions about that. What was that process like? Did it feel healing? Was it scared? Like, I'm scared for you. Just, hearing about this person, you know, and seeing what it was like to kind of go over that.

You know, to me, it was something that I've been dealing with for a long time. And so writing it down was really about trying to figure out what is crucial to the story that I need to tell and what are details that don't need to be in there. You know, it's funny. My mom just recently read the book. Oh. And she's like, oh, I'm surprised you didn't go into more detail in certain things. I'm like, I don't think that you, there's a part of me.

I don't think that we need it. I think we can go like, we can understand what was going on. We don't have to go through every little moment. And I think for me, it was trying to find that balance of making something that's actually entertaining and fun. But also really looking back and kind of, I think for the first time this book represents me putting everything in order. Like I think I very much like the boxes that I have,

you know, there's different things in each box. And I kind of laid them out to tell like one story. And seeing it as one story, I started to see these connections that I had, that I kind of had missed. You know, it's like, yes, I can be upset with my dad for not coming in and rescuing me from that situation.

But am I holding him to a higher standard than, you know, when child protective services came to our house? else, you know, to talk about what was going on and never interviewed me and left without anything or going to a family therapist and telling that therapist, like, what was going on? And that therapist going, all right, I'll protect you. So many people, I think, wanted to protect, wanted to help and didn't know how. And I think that that's a part of that is the time that we lived in. I think people have much more, have an ability to connect and find these things and understand how to help. I think back then people were a little bit lost about what to do.

It's easy to go back and say, you should have, you could have. And, you know, my point of view on what I would do is based on living through it. It's just different. You know, my parents didn't live through it. So I think, you know, for me, it's it's kind of looking at it in the most, in the broad spectrum of kind of looking at this time in my life, seeing how it affected me, but also really like looking at it in a black and white way that I didn't think I looked at it in the past. I think if I talked to me 10 years ago, I would have like, I'm mad at Hunter.

I want to get my revenge on him, you know, and I did work on myself to not to not do that. And I think that that to me is what I'm happy with. I didn't come to this book to kind of wrestle with where I'm at, but more to discuss how I got there. You speak about it now, Paul, with a lot of objectivity. You know, like when you talk about the therapist, for example, that section as a reader is really emotionally difficult because you're screaming to the therapist with today's standards

to be like, what are you doing? Why aren't you intervening? How are you giving these warnings? Like, you know, just so to reflect back of like someone, who's just reading this as an observer. It's like, what's happening here? It's like, yeah. So it's very hard not to be infuriated.

Yeah, I think that, like, I think, but this is, I think there's a part of this, this is the world that we live in, not to say that you can't trust anybody, but not sometimes you just don't have all those tools at your disposal. And you think, oh, my gosh, everything will work out in a very black and white way.

And if you just do this, you'll just do that. You know, it's like, And I think that that's one of the things that is kind of healing in a way that no one knew what to do and everyone had their own ideas of how to deal with it. You know, look, I am lucky. I was able to survive that time in my life without any major physical incidents. You know, I think I grew as a person from it. I think that some people don't have the same access that I have.

So I'm also not saying that that's, you know, I just think it's, you know, I talk about a lot of this stuff and my wife will say to me like, oh my gosh, I forget. Like I'm so cavalier about it because it's like, oh, yeah, that's what just happened. That's what happened. And, you know, it's like, and there was no other option but to just kind of move forward. Like there was never a moment where I'm like, I'm mad at that therapist. She didn't help us out. You know, I can be there now and be like, what the hell? How did you do this? Or how did the CPS? Yeah, and I think it is, it's, you know, there's a lot of things that fail people, you know, and I think that people, I will say that in my moments of talking about this stuff,

and again, I don't talk about it that much now, I will because it's out in this book, but I could tell people tense up when I do talk about it. I'm like, oh, what do I say? What do I do? How do I react to this? Do I give too much somebody? What are, you know, and people want to solve it. Like, oh, I want to get in there and I want to take care of this.

I'm like, oh, I just want to tell you this story. It's the same as me telling you a story about going to the store and getting milk. It's like, and so it's sometimes really hard because I think that people are so, I got to do something that they either get frozen by so many choices or they, you know, and they don't do anything or they maybe pick the wrong thing. I don't, you know, I don't know. That's like kind of the situation I see a lot. Well, it's reflective of our larger experience, meaning when people are having very or sharing something very difficult, can we tolerate our own feelings around it?

Yeah. Do we want to just fix it versus just like, wow, I recognize that what you went through is like enormously impactful. And that, you know, just like to share that with someone to be like, you presented in this way that is very objective. And then it's going to bring up a lot of emotions and other people. And then that's its own form of, I don't know if it's, healing is the right word, but it is, it is something to look at. Well, I thank you for both of you for being so nice about it. I think that what I really found in writing the book is what I respond to in art or in literature, in film, whatever it may be, is this connection to these stories.

I might not have lived your life. I read this Paris Hilton book, which I loved. Hottie and Nutty. And in her book, she talks about her parents, like sending her away to this essentially like bad kids camp slash school, like a boarding school. I was never put in that situation. But the way that she describes this world is so raw, so real.

And I feel like it activates something in me, something I can find. It may not be that I went to that same school. It may not be that I had that same experience. But there are these things. And I feel like when you have these true conversations, and we're in a world of social media and quick bites and like get to the point as quick as you can and that you don't often have a chance to find empathy.

And, you know, going back to our kids and watching movies, I was talking to David Lowry, who's director, great director, and I showed my kids ET for the first time. And I watched them cry when ET dies. And, and I'm like, oh, right, they're not going to get this from, despicable me too. They're not getting this moment of empathy, and that's like what made me me.

Like, I love these movies. I love all this stuff because I cried in Madam Webb. You know, because if there's something there, there's something that's giving me some connection to emotion. And I feel like it's important for us as a society to do this. And if I, I mean, I'm not saying I'm doing that. I'm just saying, but in some little part, I think that like when you put yourself out there in that way,

it may not be that you're connecting with one person's exact same. same thing, but you give people a chance to process. And I love that. One of the chapters I wanted to take out was finding out that I did have ADHD as I was an older person. I was like, this feels so stupid to me. I don't want to talk about this. I feel like this is like everyone's going to. And I was like, I don't want to. And I was so upset about it. My wife's like, you have to please leave that in. And it's been one of those chapters that people talk to me about. Like, oh my gosh, my husband is this. And I've been dealing with it and this helped me understand them. I'm like, oh, you know, It's like I was embarrassed to feel like that felt too naked to me to share this thing.

And so I feel like what I've learned is like, okay, it's if I can share it and it can be funny and real. And I think it's worthwhile. But there are things that like your instincts will say, ah, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to share that detail. But it's the stuff that brings you in. The stepfather that I had, it was like we were siblings. The difference was that he was a 40-year-old man who was, you know, much bigger and stronger than me. And, you know, after really this, you know, these years of just kind of say mercy, for yourself and say mercy, you know, this kind of just let me win.

Let me win. I decided to fight back. And that kind of started a second stage of our relationship, you know, where I could get in his face and feel like I could, you know, fight back verbally, physically. Again, he's still going to kick my ass because he's bigger. but I can at least get some sucker punches in. And that kind of energy, everybody who was a threat, regardless of what it was, would be like, I would just go to that mode, which is unfair.

It would be like, oh, we're there. I'm going to fight you like I fight a 40-year-old man. And I think people would see me on a playground or something like that, and it would be like, whoa. And luckily, I got away with a lot of it because we're like, oh, you must have provoked him in such a way because he's a nice kid. He's a good kid.

But I could switch really quickly. And I feel like, you know, wrestling with that and kind of figuring out not wanting to be that person who is so quick to anger and violence. And my first reaction was like, well, I won't ever be angry and I will never be violent. And then it was kind of like learning how to like make that on-off switch into more of a dial. Like I can have anger. Not violent. But I can have, I can, I can, I don't have to mute myself either.

But I think, you know, for a long time, I didn't even have that tool. So it just wound up muting myself after years of, you know, just being that angry person. So it's, you know, I think that stuff is hard to wrestle with. And it takes a lot of time to figure out that balance. I wanted to ask you, besides the anger, which you talk about, there's another kind of coping mechanism that learned from your family and you talk about it, not just from, you know, the abuse that you lived in with your mom, but just sort of the, you know, the one of the kind of deals in your family was to not make things a big deal. And, you know, you write that your dad had like a pretty significant

piece of information and he said, oh, I didn't tell you because I didn't want you to get upset. And you say, it took me a while to realize that getting upset meant having any reaction at all. If nothing is a big deal, then any emotional response will seem out of place. And then you don't have to live with the discomfort of someone being upset. And you write, my family's mentality taught me not to insert myself into anything, to always keep up appearances in decorum and not really burden anyone with my feelings. And you have this hilarious, but really, really relatable, kind of tragic breakup. It's your first, you know, serious breakup.

And essentially, you're about to go on. like a 10-day vacation with your girlfriend at the time and her parents. And she basically like breaks up with you as the vacation is starting, but she kind of reinforced this like, let's pretend like everything's okay. Can you talk a little bit about that breakup and what tools you had from, you know, your family that allowed you to think that that was something you could do? Yeah. You know, it's, it, you know, as you read that, you know, I was just thinking about this thing that always happened. It's a joke that we, we always talk about that my grandma, who was, of course, she was older, my grandma would always

answer the phone. And when I was calling her as a kid, like a seven-year-old kid, an eight-year-old kid, she'd like, hello, yes, and how may I help you? And whenever she answered the phone like that, we knew, oh, she has company over. like she doesn't want to be seen as being weak or like okay well this i will get back to you thank you so much and it was like so bizarre right it was like i'm like i'm just a kid like i'm your grandkid i'm calling my grandma but like if my kids call me like hey what's up how are you know i wouldn't be like yeah like pretending it was like she treated me like i was somebody calling a like her like an affair

like i was a mistress or something like that you know um and um you know, so there was this energy of just like, we don't, you know, we don't, we don't, we don't tell people, like, I didn't, like, wasn't allowed to tell anyone that my mom was remarried. You know, it was like, oh, my mom married my dad. And then my mom married this other man who is not mentioned in the book, but who she married years and years later. You know, and I think it was this idea of keeping, keeping up appearances allowed us to control a narrative in a way.

And I think that we probably came from a family that judged each other pretty harshly. Oh my gosh, did you see that? Did you see this? I remember that one of the biggest fights in my family was my grandfather had passed away. And I wore black sneakers

to the funeral. I did a reading at his funeral, but I wore black sneakers. sneakers. And my gosh, my mom was like put through the ringer that I wore black sneakers. Now, her father had just died. Right? We're trying to go to the thing. And now, am I'm a kid who watches Dana Carvey's Opportunity Knox? And I'm like, I'm going to put on sneakers like Dana Carvey in this movie. I'm cool. You know, I can wear sneakers with a suit, whatever I was going on my mind, you know, and my mom is blamed, you know, so it's this idea like of knowing like someone's going to

jump on you in any point. So let's us try to, you know, if we give them less, they can't attack us. So I think that there is this energy all the time of, you know, the more information we can control, the better off will be. We can stay stronger within these walls. And I think with my dad then also taught me this idea of, you know, it's fine. It's fine. Everything is fine. Everything is fine.

And they actually had me a weird way of dealing with emotions. And when this girl broke up with me and we're at her parents' house in Florida on this 10-day trip, like her dad's like, oh, you're going to ask her to get married. and I'm like, I don't want to make these parents upset. Yes, well, maybe, maybe, you know. And we are going to bed in the same bedroom. And it's like, because it's like, it's more important for these parents not to be upset,

you know, for me to do this and like, okay, I'm going to respect her wishes. But it really was, I became so passive in my life that I wasn't able to, you know, just be like, if that happened to me now, it'd be like, oh, I'll just get on a plane and go back to New York. Or I'll just go some. somewhere else. I don't need to be there. What do I care about these people? Who cares if they are

upset or angry? It's like, but in my mind, I was like, I have to be the perfect person. I can't disrupt anything. And I think that that probably all stems from this idea of like in an abusive situations, like you don't want to set anybody off. You don't want to, you know, to your, to your point, like you don't want to like, if you, you can make things worse by reacting to it. So let me just sit back and take it. Because then it will be over quick. It's easier for me to spend 10 days here just going like, yes, we're so in love. It's going to be amazing. We're going to have kids.

It's going to be married. Let's go look at wedding dresses. Then to put anybody in this moment. No, she did not. She did not look at wedding. But like it was just like that idea like, oh, I would have done it all. I did it all. I mean, you might have gotten married that weekend.

Yeah. I mean, I look at that and I go like there's a part of me that at one point. I was like, I'll move to Florida. I'll move to Florida and make it better. I'm like, but why? just because it was like, I thought that, like, yeah, ending a relationship was a failure. So this is the question that I have. Like, what changed between that Paul and later Paul?

Because also, you know, and I don't mean to make this a gendered issue, but as a female person, I can really relate to that bind of, I just need everything to be okay. And I think, like, you know, not to bring it back to movies, but like when you look at what culture was like, especially for those of us who grew up in the 70s, in the 80s, in the 90s, like, that was so ubiquitous, like, especially for females to be assumed to be just congenial and like, okay with everything, even if it's not. So I wonder, though, I think that's something that men, women, everyone, you know, could kind of benefit from. I'm curious, like, is there a thing that you can pinpoint? Like, this took me from that person to the person I am now? Like, was it therapy? Was it just getting

older, being more mature, like, what's the thing? Because I think a lot of people want to know what that is. How do I, how would I know how to step into my power when it's something so clear, right? Like, looking back now, you'd say, well, of course I should have said to her, wow, this is awkward and unfortunate, but I'm not going to be comfortable pretending that we're dating for the next 10 days. Yeah, of course. What's the thing? Like, what's the magic sauce here? I think the answer is different, probably for every. everybody, but for me, the beginning of my journey, but I went on for many a year, and still to a certain degree, you know, wrestling with came from trusting this process of therapy.

I come out of a situation where no one was there to protect me multiple times. I did go to a therapist. I did these things that no one was there for the mess, so I didn't want to make a mess, right? So I had to deal with it myself. So I didn't even realize that I was doing anything wrong until I was going through a breakup with this woman and we went to couples therapy to see if we could salvage anything. We didn't.

She left. and the therapist reached out to me and said, would you like to continue? And whatever reason I was, I think part of it probably started off from this idea of like, well, yes, I want to be the good, if she's going to pick her favorite in that relationship, I will keep on going because that's, you know,

then I'm doing it, right? So I, you know, I started off there. And as we were talking about stuff, like two or three sessions in, she's like, I'm going to give you this baseball bat. And it was like a yellow wiffel bat. And she's like, wiffle ball bat. And she was like, I want you to let out your anger.

I want you to like beat the shit out of this couch, like just beat this couch. And I felt like, what? No, fuck that. I'm not being this guy. I felt stupid. I felt like stupid like even doing that exercise. And I was like kind of just like doing it, but I couldn't really manufacture it. But what she kind of tapped into was I had.

I had this voice. I had this anger that was there. And she was really worked on giving me that freedom to find those levels. And when I say anger, like, that's a part of it. But it was also part of like self-respect. Like the idea of like I can stick up for myself and not. And it's okay if people don't agree with me. It's okay if this thing is.

is not popular, right? I could not go back to therapy, right? I could do whatever I wanted. I had autonomy, I had power. I think I'd been so used to doing just what everybody else wanted to keep everything even, that just the acknowledgement that I had anger started this process of healing that started me to be able to speak about this thing,

how I felt about it, how I, what's going on? Why am I mad? It's okay to be mad. It's okay to have opinions. It's okay. and that was really the beginning of it for me. And again, it wasn't like something that just clicked and was like, oh, and tomorrow I'm better.

It was years of experimentation. It was, you know, one of the best things for me in that time was dating. I got to go out on these dates. And I could just be who I was. I didn't have to hide who I was. I wasn't trying to be a perfect boyfriend. I was just me. If you like me, you like me.

And if you don't like me, you don't like me. And that's fine. We'll go on another date with somebody else. And I think that there is a real, you know, it was a real freeing moment for me to not have to be perfect, but to be this other thing and not like something and not want to call somebody back and not want to go out. Like I think for me that even that idea was foreign. Like, well, if I want on a date, it's up to the girl. Like, if the girl wants to go back out again and I don't, I'm going to go back out on a date.

Like, it just was so passive. So I think being in touch with that was the beginning of just understanding who I really, was and not who I was in reaction to other people. So there's just so much I relate to what you're sharing. I had an exercise once in therapy where I had to say no to things randomly without any explanation. And it had to like, the exercise was like go out in the real world for the next week. And any time you don't like something, you just say, I don't like that with no explanation.

Amazing. It was terrifying because it's like. Normally it's like caveat and I don't want to hurt this person's feelings. And if I explain it well enough, then it won't hurt their feeling because they'll know where I'm coming from. Yeah. And by like this all this over justification. And she's like, you're spending all this time and energy trying to just justify the fact

that you have an opinion or that you have a preference. She's like, why? What are you doing? And I'm like, well, it's from this and that. And I don't want to and I have to caveat this and otherwise I'm going to get attacked and someone's going to say why. And she's like, no, go around. I don't like that.

I don't like that either. Yeah. And it's like a toddler type attitude, but the level of freedom that it brought to know that I can just have an opinion that doesn't need to be explained whatsoever. It's really hard because I think that we live in a time. And this is interesting too,

because we're also in this time where, I think there's many a great reckoning going on. And I think it started with the Me Too movement. And I think it has continued into just people who are assholes and are, you know, and, and there's something that I look at. You don't need to come on a podcast and talk about me like that. You know, but I think when you look at it, there's a certain thing where I'm like, there are people who take that to an extreme.

Like, oh my gosh, they are saying this. And, you know, and then there are people who. who, you know, there's often extremes in this world. You know, the person who's like, fuck you, get out of here, throwing things, you know, abuse of power. And there are people who are like, I'll do anything. And, you know, and it's like, and I think what we need to do is find more of that middle ground

where you can be like, I can have an opinion. I can be respectful, but I don't need to make my opinion okay for you. And that's a hard thing to do. It's like, why not? Well, because I want it this way. And that's it. And it's, you know, as a parent, something that we have to do too. It's like, why can't I do it?

You can't. Like, and that's done. It's like, you know, but it's, I think that sometimes, or at least I come from that zone of like, I want when I work on a set and I work with people, I want them all to like me. I want them to feel heard. And I think that you can still do all of that. But you also have to, at the end of the day, make a decision. Somebody said that to me one time I was on set and I had a prop.

and it was like a book design. It was a cover of a book. And I was like, oh, they're both really good. And I was like, what do you think? And someone was like, I like that one. And someone was like, I like that one. And I was like looking there. And I felt like, oh, what should I do?

Everyone was a split decision. And my producer came up to me and was like, it's not their decision to make. It's your decision. Make a decision. Just go with it. And I was like, right. Okay. This one.

This is what we're doing. And we went with it. And it's like, and I think it's a hard lesson to learn. It's something that I still wrestle with. You know, it's like, and sometimes when you are like that, people will gaslight you the other way. Like I just had a situation last week where I was like simply asking questions, not passive aggressively, just being like, oh, and what's going on with that? And where is that?

And why did we do that? And like, it was truly just questions. And people like, wait, hey, I feel like you're getting real pissed off. I'm like, I'm not. I'm just. And I think that we also live in a culture where you can't ask. It's like, it's a weird balance because it's like, well, I can be direct, but then people may take it as you're being mean. It's like, but I'm not, there's no spin on it.

So it's hard. It's hard to find the balance. It can be a weird middle ground. I would think that for anyone, you know, I was thinking about your sort of advice about how you started to shift and the wiffle ball bat. I think for anyone who has something similar or can relate to this, one way to start getting out of it is just to recognize that most of the time,

the people in your life and around you are not going to get nearly as mad. or care at all, almost, as the people who you grew up with, who you developed this coping strategy to be so hypervigilant to make sure that the bomb didn't go off? Like, you've tucked yourself away, trying to protect yourself against people who no longer exist in your sphere for the most part. Yeah. And I think, too, it's like you have to answer to yourself

at the end of the day. You can only control how you behave. If you're respectful, nice, and you can also be direct. and, you know, and I think you have to also get out of that, that idea that anyone else is thinking about you, right? Like, there's, like, there's that thing to is like, oh, if I do this, well, they're going to think this. And chances are most people aren't going to think about you. And the person that you're trying to protect will still go away and go, like, that person is a jerk. Like, you know, they're going to find their own reason to, you know, like, and I think it's,

but it's hard to, it's hard to remind yourself of that. It's hard to, like, live by that. Because I think that, like, you know, sometimes you can just tend to, I can tend to be a people pleaser. I want to be a people pleaser. I want to have, you know, but it's like, but you can't make everything perfect. That's the other thing too. Like it's, there's no world in which you're perfect because if you're, if you're perfect to somebody else and you're compromising yourself, then it's not perfect. You can also people please the heck out of everyone around you and they could still be annoyed at you. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Like that's it. There's no, there's no win. There's, yeah, there's no, there's many. So all you have to do, I think all you can do is just be like, be honest and respectful

And hopefully that works. Another thing that I think is important to remember is like there's no right answer necessarily. Right. There's often a series of, let's kind of six of one, half a dozen of another. And it doesn't really, really matter.

And like, I always was kind of, like, that kind of like messed with my head a little bit because I always was taught like, there's a right answer to things. You know? Well, I talk about this all the time. Like, when people ask me for advice, a career advice,

I can tell you what I did, but that career is, you cannot replicate it because you had to be at a certain place in New York at a certain time with a certain amount of people. It's like, but what I can tell you is,

at the end of the day, what my career is, is working with like-minded people that I love to be with who challenge me and also support me. And when I was, like writing that chapter. I don't write that much about like working in the business in the book.

It's kind of on the side. But it, you know, when I wrote this chapter on UCB, I wrote about, I really wrote this like whole big story about how the upright systems brigade started and where it was. And my wife read it. And she was like, you know, she read the whole book. And she's like, that one chapter that was weird. She's like, what are you? Like a dramaturg? And I was like, no, I just was like, I think it's cool. It's like fun to have all this stuff out there. And she's like, yeah, but it's not personal. It's just like, you just like, you just wrote about. about the UCB. And I realized very much, I was like, oh, what I'm what I'm writing about in that chapter to some degree is I found my grouping of people that really helped me after, you know, finding people

that weren't there and kind of building this clan around me, you know, and that's, that's the takeaway. Like, that's the life lesson. And I feel like you're right. Like it's, there's no right way to be. There's no, you know, my mom is very much a black and white person. Like if it's in a book, I'm going to act that way. It's like, and that's not life. You just have to be like, it's constantly just kind of taking information and just going, like, I have a set of rules that I like to live by, and hopefully I can fulfill it that way. The one part of the book that you mentioned that, you know, you kind of wanted to take out, you know, you speak very candidly about ADHD and that sort of later life diagnosis and, you know, how medication really, like, shifted so much for you. The one thing I wanted to ask you about that, because, you know, this is obviously one of these things that a lot of people are self-diagnosing. and, you know, it's a lot on TikTok and social media and, you know, and, you know, as with many things,

this is a spectrum. So there's a spectrum of behaviors, you know, so there's a lot of things that you may have features, whatever. But you speak about, you know, a really specific shift that you saw. And I wonder if you can talk about as a comedian, you know, as a writer, as a creator, as a creator. Did you notice anything different? You know, I'm curious if you noticed anything negative or anything positive? Yeah, I have a friend that I've known for a very long time, and his name is Tom, and Tom was like, he's like, why, can I ask you a question? And like, yeah, he's like, why do you go to therapy? And I was like, well, what do you mean? He was like, I mean, that's going to make you not funny. And I, and I'm like, no, it doesn't make, like, it doesn't like, again,

you fix the problems, then you're not going to be interesting anymore. And I think that there's a part of that, right? That's funny. He thinks that therapy fixes problems. Yeah. You know, and I think that there's like that idea like, oh, that if you do any sort of self-examination, you are going to lose that edge. But truthfully, I think I've found self-examination actually makes me more open to so many more opportunities and ways to go and ways to see the world. You know, and so that ADHD, this wrestling that I had with like the medication of it, and I'm on a very low dose and I also don't, this is not prescriptive.

I'm not saying that everybody should be on medication. I don't, to me, this thing, you know, really doesn't affect me in a way where I notice a difference. The difference that I notice is that I can stay, like my impulses are dampened in a good way. Like that urge to interrupt, that urge to go and do something else, that urge to multitask them.

Like I can focus in a way. It didn't like change my personality. It's not like, oh, I would never have written this if I wasn't on that. It's like, no, I would have written it. It would just take me like four weeks longer. Like, you know, I would have stayed up until five in the morning. Like, you know, those are the differences. Like, you know, so like that's what I found.

But I also know that I've talked to people who are on different doses. I think that this is like, this is part of it too is you watch these things on TikTok. You watch these things on Instagram. And all of a sudden, I'm watching this guy, whether he's telling you this, the best way is stretch out your back or this person is telling you this is a sign of autism or ADHD. It's like, and you are? And what's your background? Like,

but like you see it quickly. Where I'm not looking at who this person. I'm like, oh yeah, click, click, click. You know, it's like, you're just looking immediately and you do like that. Is that person an expert? You have to approach this stuff with a person that you can, that can guide you on some level, like talk to you, like that you can experiment with.

It's not, like, the self-diagnation. I self-diagnosed myself from someone on Twitter. And that allowed me to then go and then do the real work. Like if that kicks you, like let that kick you like let that be a kick in your, like to kick you to another level. But I find it funny. It's like, why are we following all these people that are just, everyone can get on TikTok or Instagram. Like, I'm an expert in this. I know this. I'm like, yeah, I don't. Why would I trust this automatically? I don't know. Lyme and I diagnosed each other on an episode of the podcast. She made us take a questionnaire.

We haven't released it yet. Well, what's funny is we each thought the other one was more ADHD than the other. Jonathan has most of the externalizing features of ADHD, and I have most of the internalizing features. So together we are the perfect ADHD formula. I love it. You guys are that, yeah, you've come together to form like the perfect Voltron. Or the Wonder Twins of Attention deficit disorder.

It's such an interesting thing. It's like, and I think what it's done for me to like understand it is like all these things I thought were quirks or these things that I'm like, I'd feel bad about. Like it's actually like alleviated so much of that in my life. Like, you know, it's like I could stay up thinking about an incident that happened at a CVS eight years ago. I'm like, oh, such an idiot to that cash register person. Like, and it was nothing that anyone remembered. It wasn't like I had a melt down.

It was like, oh, I was so embarrassed by my, you know, I could like live in those. moments. I'm like, why am I doing this to myself? This moment that no one remembers that no one will see, but I'm like, oh, just living it over and over in my head. Literally the dumbest, smallest things. Now, I'm going to think about that at two in the morning, what he did at the CVS. Yeah, it's, you know, and then there's things that, you know, it's like, there's, like you said, it's a spectrum. There's so many different values of it. And that, you know, but it's good to, I think, examine it. Because then now when I see it to myself, I'm like, oh, I know what that is. I'm spiraling right now. I'm feeling like everybody hates me because that's triggering this thing.

I got it. Okay. I can get through it instead of just sitting there and being, oh, no, what did I do? You know, I think that's the most important thing. So I have my very own personal, how did this get made, this shouldn't have been made, why did it get made that just runs through my head all the time? Because I am a purveyor of horrible movies. I love it. And in particular, I specialize in Nicholas Cage. Love a Nick Cage movie, yes. I specialize in, well, Denzel Washington, like anything that Denzel is in. Well, Denzel Washington is interesting because...

He's in many good movies, but... I would say that Denzel Washington always good in bad movies. Like, you know, there's a difference. There's like a slight difference. It's like, oh, he makes it watchable, even though this is insane. 100%. I also like Bad Mel Gibson movies. Can't beat a bad maldolson movie.

You can't. And Jonathan just thought that this is such a funny pairing because you and I also, I'm sure we know many, many people in common. You know, just reading through your book, I was like, oh, oh, oh, I almost was at parties with you, I think, for my whole life. But this connection was kind of the funniest because... But you stayed home. That's right.

I do stay home. But this was kind of something that I was so excited to get to talk to you about because it's such a brilliant idea that so many of us, you know, have been sort of playing in our heads. How did you come up with this idea to basically make an entire universe around, you know, I mean, also it doesn't have to be critical, judgmental in a bad way, but it's really poking fun at a aspect of our industry that needs to be poked at. Well, you know, for me, when we started doing How Did This Get Made, which is a podcast that I do with June Diane Raphael and Jason Manzoukis. we were doing it at a time when no one had podcasts. We started 14 years ago, right?

So when you would tell people, oh, yeah, we have a podcast. They're like, oh, what's that? And like, okay, it's like radio, but you got to get an app and you got to download the app. So it was really at a time where there wasn't so much out there. And everyone was kind of trying to find their own little niche in it. And when we first started talking, it was Jason, June and I were sitting at a party. We were off in the corner. And June and I had just seen Wall Street 2, Money Never Sleeps, Great title.

And we were explaining this movie to Jason. And it was so insane. You know, it's like Wall Street was such a great 80s movie. And then you're bringing it back and Shia LaBouf is in it. And it's like he's the new Charlie Sheen. But it's a mess. It's a mess of a movie. And we're explaining like this bizarre film that also ends like one of those old school IMAX movies that I just remember like balloons going up into the sky.

And it was like kind of pretty balloons. Like what is this movie? And Jason says as we were talking, he's like, this is a podcast. I'm like, oh, right. This is what I do with my friends all the time. I'm like, well, it's only a podcast if you want to do it with us. And he's like, all right, let's do it. And, you know, because to me, growing up, I would go see a movie, walk across the street to, like, the Denny's or the Bob's Big Boy because it changed ownership twice.

And we would just sit there with our friends and just talk about what we saw, good or bad, right? It just was like a place to, like, decompress and also just stay out just a little bit later, you know, because as a kid, we weren't allowed to do that much stuff. We could go see a movie and have, you know, French fries. And it really was something that just started very organically. And you're like, yeah, I love a Nick Cage movie. I love movies in general. And I think that Jason, June and I, we all are writers and producers and actors and directors. So we all have an appreciation for how these things are made.

We all know that no one goes into a movie with the want of it to be bad or even thinking it could be bad because I've been on movies where I'm like, you know what, this is going to suck. And then it comes out and be like, whoa, I love this thing. This is great. All right. And it turned out really good. Sometimes you don't see it. Sometimes, you know, you think it's going to be great.

And then no one sees it. So it's a very, it's hard. It's hard, you know, to do this. So, yeah, we've done it for 14 years as like a side project for all of us. And we love, we just love coming back to it. I mean, there's never, as long as Netflix is making independent or making originals, we're going to have plenty of movies to talk about. And then there's also just things that we have not yet seen that always blow my mind.

Yeah, the Denzel movie that I've seen more than twice, which I really shouldn't, it's called Out of Time. It has Eva Longoria in it. Oh, great one, yeah. It's so good. Does that have the Groundhog Day vibe to it? No, that's a different one. Okay.

No, that's a different one. All right, you know, I mean, also Mighty Quinn, which was a 1989 Denzel Washington movie, is that, I mean, that one. You could watch that on drugs or not on drugs, and it would be equally awesome. The one that I love is the Denzel Washington movie with Russell Crow, first time he's in a movie in the States. Oh, yes. He is like a computer-generated villain, like an AI villain. And, oh, man, it's good.

I'm curious, Paul, have you gotten any, like, flack from either the stars or directors or creators of any of these movies that have been? been maybe a little, you've called out how questionable there? You know, look, I think that we approach this very much with respect. You know, so we never really try to attack the filmmakers. I think a lot of times we'll have these conversations. Why would they do this? Like, you know, we just watched Madam Webb, Madame Webb. And, you know, and at a certain point, Madame Webb, she, she, like, leaves these kids just

alone. She's like, all right, you guys stay in the forest. I'll be back. And she goes away for a couple days or she's like, you guys stay here. I'm going to go to Peru. She's always like leaving these kids. So we'll get into this conversation, not about Dakota Johnson and her style of acting as much as we'll be like, why does this character constantly leave these people that she's trying to protect alone and without any protection? So we get into the, we get into the weeds with that. I would say that in doing this show for so long, people have come up. to us, but they also are aware that they've been in some movies. As much as I am, people say me, oh, Paul, why don't you do X or why don't you, why don't you, why don't you, why?

Movies that I've been in. I'm like, it's not as much fun. I do know how it got made. And the truth is, I have friends on those things. And it was fun. We had a good time. And, you know, it didn't work out the way it did. It's more fun just go in and just enjoy them. I think the one time that I was most shocked is I was in an episode of the Goldbergs. And it was right when COVID started lifting and we were back on set, but it was still weird. Everyone had to kind of keep distances and everything like that. And so we were kind of separate from the director. She was around, but she was wearing a mask.

I didn't really see her. And in the middle of the day, she comes up to me and she goes, on the naughty. And I'm like, what? And we had done this movie called The Hottie and the Nottie, Paris Hilton. and this director, she was the naughty. And then there's this moment where you wait because it may be like, you guys kind of went hard on us.

We were just having fun. Or it could be like, oh, and I know, isn't it so crazy? And it's like always that that's that longest moment from, you talk about my movie on your show, and then you just have to kind of wait, beat, beat, beat. You're like, oh, it wasn't it crazy? Like, yes, it was. Thank God, boom, we get out of it.

You know, it's like, it's tricky. but, you know, like, you could do whatever. It's often not based on one person's performance, you know. But yeah, we've not, we've luckily not gotten too many people to get mad. As a matter of fact, you know, we talk about Fast and Furious so much that, you know, the whole Fast and Furious team apparently was listening to our podcast to cut trailers for the new movie because I think they understood, like there's a, there's a fun that we're not necessarily embracing enough of here.

You do approach it with a lot of love, so I can understand that. People appreciate it. Yeah, we try to. I mean, I do, I love, I love, like you said, like, I love a bad. I love a movie that doesn't always make sense. And there's difference between bad unwatchable and bad fun. And bad fun is what I want to watch. I want to put it on, like there's a movie called Samurai Cop, which is a German man,

decided to make an 80s movie in the vein of lethal weapon, but he didn't quite speak. the language that well. And so he kind of approximated things, you know, like, you know, so it would be the, like, you know, Dana Glover and like lethal weapon would be like, I'm too old for this shit. And in that movie, the line would be like, I'm too old to take shit, you know, so it's like, take a shit. So, you know, it's like, it's like, it's right, but it's wrong. And the actor said that we could never change the lines, you know, he could never change

them. So they had to say these lines that were so kind of weird and, and all. And yeah, so Samurai Cop is a highlight and so is Miami Connection. A movie made by a Orlando karate studio instructor. And the film was lost for many years and they opened up a storage facility and Alamo Draft House just bought it on a whim. And then they screened it and was like, this is genius. We must release this movie.

I've also seen more Liam Neeson movies than I'm really comfortable giving you the number of. I have a game where we just put all this posters together. They all look identical. Okay. So that's what I was going to say. So what I specialize in when I sort of, you know, lock into this world is the similarities are astounding. I mean, it's, you know, even, I mean, I just watch, I mean, I love a Kevin Costner movie

also. So there's also, there's a, there's a category of movies that you could literally insert Nicholas Cage, Liam, Liam Neeson, and on a good day like Mel Gibson or Kevin Costner, into the same exact, Bruce Willis. I mean, I've done them all. I've really done. them all. And this is just in parallel to your existence, meaning I didn't even know that I was creating my own podcast in my head. You have your, yeah, you have it. However, you know, I have these two

children who are 15 and 18 now. And I feel like I've really ruined them because, you know, they assume it's because mom is an actor and mom is in the business that I love pointing out all the things that don't make sense, meaning I raised them to see, kind of. continuity problems. I raise them to see like lighting problems. So for me, like when I watch these, it's enjoyable to me on a lot of levels, but I also love to find that. But I think in a way, I've ruined it for them because, you know, they now, they get to see how the sausage is made. Correct. And one of the main things that an actress will do if she doesn't know what to do in a scene is cross her arms or put her hand on her hip. And I've just raised these children who when we're

watching a movie, they'll be like, why is she, her only thing she can do is. put her hand on her hip. I was like, yes. So I wonder, tell me if your kids have inherited this from you. No, we keep them away from these movies. I have learned early on that I can't watch the movies that I really love with my kids because I don't know if they're going to like them. So I always kind of pick it. I have a very, I try to only subject them to things that I think will be a win because I don't want them to be like, oh, dad, you know, made us watch us movies. and they get irritated with me. Like, there was literally a day my, my 10-year-old came home.

And he was like, you remind me of this kid in my, on my basketball team. And so, yeah, why? He goes, because he likes movies. And I'm like, yeah, and he's like, yeah, you like movies. Like, well, there's nothing weird about liking movies. He's like, okay. I'm like, wait, wait, why is that bad? He's like, yeah, all right.

Like, he was so, like, my kids are so oddly anti-movie. They were more YouTubers and not they watch a lot of those YouTubers and you know, and they play video games. But to me, movies were like my lifeblood, like getting a VCR when I was a kid and DVD players that got to watch these movies. Like it was the best thing going to Blockbuster, all that stuff. So I, you know, my kids, it's like I got to be careful when I show them a movie. I got to make sure I pick it right. I tried to watch the first bad boys with my kids. And like it didn't hold up the way I thought it would because it was made in 1995.

I was already in college and like that was, it's too long ago. It did not hold up for their sensibilities. Bad Boys two really kicks. Yes. That's the one. Yeah. So I was like, okay, we got to up it. But it was Mother's Day.

And so they just sort of like, they just grinned and bared it. But I was like, I can tell that there's way too many dead spots in this movie for them because movie making was so different than. But my favorite movie story of what not to show your children. Well, I showed them splash. That doesn't hold up. There's a lot of really weird things. It's very little mermaid.

That's a mute woman who's highly sexualized. And I was like, oh, this is not the message I wanted to send. But my favorite movie story that I do want to share with you is literally the week that we, I've been divorced since my kids were four and seven. And literally it was, it was probably the week, you know, after like their dad moved out. Like, it was a hard time. And I was like, we're going to watch a movie. They hadn't watched a lot of television or movies because, like,

were those variety of hippies. But I was like, we're going to watch a movie that I remember just made me laugh. It's just like a good movie. So what did I put on? Mrs. Doubtfire. Now, you may not remember, Paul. Yeah, it's a great movie. But do you know what it's about?

It's about a couple that gets divorced. And in order to win back her love, he disguises himself as the nanny becomes the mother they always wanted and wins back their mom. And I look over at my children and every. Everyone's crying. And I was like, this, they will never let me forget it. Ever, ever, ever. Oh, my gosh.

That is amazing. And I will say that, like, look, it's so hard to show your kids a movie because you forget large chunks of why they were what they were. Like, you know, you just remember like a couple funny moments. You're like, oh, they'll like that. Like, for example, I showed my kids. adventures and babysitting, which I love. And it's a great movie.

And they actually really did like it. But again, I have a seven-year-old. I have a 10-year-old. So they're still pretty young. And I totally forgot that a major part of that movie is that Elizabeth Shoe looks like a playboy centerfold. And throughout the entire movie, they are in possession of a playboy. They lose a playboy.

They get a playboy back. people keep on recognizing her from Playboy. So there's that going on, which is like, I'm like, I'm trying to explain what that is. And then, you know, then there's just simple things that they did in these movies that you forget. Like, it's just not going on in movies like this. Like, you know, Anthony Rap is in and he's like, oh, doesn't she have big?

And he's making like boob signs. I'm like, I'm just like, I'm not ready for it all. But the real, they love the movie. They're having so much fun. You know, and I think that what I love about showing my kids these movies is like there's like some danger and adventure, which I think kids' movies now are so muted that they're just, they want to see that. End of the movie, they're psyched, they're, you know, they're racing home, the characters in the film to, you know, beat the parents home from Chicago

and they've rescued Elizabeth Shue's friend from the bus stop because she was going to run away from home. And in the backseat, the two boys are in the backseat, the girl is passed out. And Anthony Rapp literally, for no reason, just. lifts up the girl's jacket to, like, check out her boobs as she's passed out. I'm like, hey, he's like, what is she doing? What is she doing? I'm like, I think he's straightening her jacket because she's cold. Like, I don't know what to do.

I don't know. Like, I'm like, why would you put that in? In the last seconds, it plays nothing into anything. Just like perv moment. And that's what I think I find all the time, these pervy moments in these movies that I love. And you get, like, they all have them. It's like, it's like every one of these, like male directors in the 80s, like, we can make it a little burvey.

There's always just a little thing that's like, ooh. Like even like the breakfast club, like one of the characters goes under the table. I didn't show this to them. It's like looking up some girl's skirt. Like, hey, come on, why? Why? There's so much other good stuff around it. Well, that's, you know, John Hughes.

One more funny thing that also is a real, is really interesting about, you know, kind of showing kids also movies from yesteryear is the difference in technology. because how many scenes do you now see that involve texting or that involve, you know, the use of cell phones, meaning like even in bad boys, when the, you know, Sergeant wanted them to come in, he had to call them on a rotary phone to try and track them down. And my kids were like, this is so weird. Like, there's no cell phones. And I'm like, yes, our whole life was like that.

And it's captured, you know, here on film for you. Well, you know what's so interesting is that they. that you constantly are, the reason why a lot of fun, well, the reason why a lot of movies even happen is because you can't get in touch with the person, right? That was like such a major part of everything, you know, whether it's after hours, whether it's dumb and dumber, home alone, there's all these that you can't get in touch. And now we cannot not get in touch with, you know, like it's, you know, and it's, and that to me is such a bummer because I almost like, it's better to do a movie set in the 80s. It's like, yeah, we need this plot device just to make it like,

we got to get the adventure started. We can't have everybody ready to text. Well, and I think it's funny because I, as a writer, that's also, it's something that we're so used to using because it's so part of how we communicate now. But anyway, the book is Joyful Recollections of Trauma. Paul Shear, it's been a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so, so much. And if you ever need someone to talk about shitty movies with, I am your new best friend. I would love to have you on the show. be so much fun when we do our show now. I'll make sure we reach out. Oh, that would be awesome. Thank you so much. It's my and be all next breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown.