Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Rainn Wilson: Embrace Your Eccentricities & A Petri Dish of Creativity

Episode Date: August 17, 2021

Rainn Wilson (The Office, Six Feet Under, Metaphysical Milkshake with Rainn & Reza, SoulPancake) joins Mayim and Jonathan in the studio as their first ever in-person guest to discuss his nerdy childhood, growing up with social misfit parents, and the evolution that therapy has provided to every area of his life. He explains how feeling unloved and alienated as a child in a petri dish of dysfunction led to anxiety, depression, panic attacks, and addiction issues. Rainn admits to learning early on in his acting career to embrace playing the role of an alienated misfit, and opens up about his meditation process and the tools his faith gave him in finding his own path and identity. Mayim and Rainn bond over being band geeks and chess club members and the expectations, insecurities, and limitations that come with being sitcom character actors. They examine the similarities between a recovery journey and spiritual journey, the benefits of going to AA even if you’re not an alcoholic, and reasons some individuals might be resistant to therapy. BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can I ask you one silly question? Yeah. Do people like expect you and want you to be like cute and funny? Sitcom character actors having a conversation about being sitcom character actors. That's not what I'm asking. No, I just like, you were quirky and you had like isms and you know like. On like Twitter I'll tweet about vaccines. People would be like, Dwight would never get vaccinated.

Unfollowed. Create an account for a fictional character that was on a TV show and follow it. That's fine. Do people understand how acting works? Like, It's my and Biolik's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two.

And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi, I'm Hyam, Bialik, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Why am I so excited and already blushing? Because it's a very, very special episode. What's most exciting,

is that my co-pilot is sitting next to me. This is Jonathan Cohen. I'm taking over. This is my first step to removing you as host and taking over your chair. Jonathan, why are we sitting like this? Besides me trying to move in. I figure that you're going to be the Johnny Carson of this show and you're going to go on vacation for like eight, nine, 12 weeks at a time. Does that make you at McMain?

Well, I have to practice filling in. You don't know who that is because you're from Canada. I remember who it is. I am here because I have someone very, very special taking my seat. We have someone taking Jonathan's seat, which means this is our first episode, post-COVID. Not that it's over, but post a particular phase of COVID, we have our first guest in our studio. And I first should say, I don't know if we've talked about this. I used to live in this house where this studio is.

We're actually filming in what was my bedroom. You've never had this many people in your bedroom before. I've never had this many bedroom before, even when I had both of my children sleeping in bed with me. We converted this house into a podcast studio when the pandemic began. And it's just been me and Jonathan here because we couldn't have any guests. And very lonely. We've jumped through a lot of CDC hoops to be where we're at today and we have a guest. And it's a very cool guest.

We're very excited to welcome someone who is an actor and a person. writer and a producer. He is best known for his Emmy nominated role on the NBC series, The Office, as Dwight. Best known, but not best known by Maim, who has not seen a single episode of The Office. Not one. But what I know Rain Wilson from is his amazing turn for three seasons, I believe, on Six Feet Under. Was it three? Can I, am I revealed yet? Can I talk yet? I'm not sure how this thing it works. That was the big reveal. I know you from six feet under,

and I was an enormous fan of that show and of you. And I know that you're on this extremely, you were on an extremely popular, important show that really changed the face of a lot of television. I'm just, I'm not a watcher of most. She's a little behind in her pop culture. Uh-huh. But I'm allowed to still be an enormous fan of yours.

I've seen Clicks. I know what you do and how funny. Do you want to just take like 21 minutes and 30 seconds right now? Just watch an episode. No. Get it over with. Yeah. We could just, in fact, that would be a great podcast.

Okay. It's watching The Office with my ambialic 200 episodes. Oh, I've also never seen Gilmore girls. I've never seen friends. Yeah. I've never also seen Top Gun, which I'm told is a must sing. I've never seen TopCon. We could watch it together.

Oh, my God. Anyway. It's a new podcast. It's a new podcast. Rain and Mayam watch movies they haven't seen together. I should also say that in 2009, you founded Soul Pancake. You created a space where people from all walks of life discuss and question what it means to be human. And I got to be part a little bit of the world of yours outside of acting.

When I was on metaphysical milkshake with you and Reza Aslan and we talked, I mean, you talk about some very, very deep things. And we talked all about, do we still need religion? Yeah. Just that little thing. Just a tiny little topic. Yeah. Yeah. We're very excited to have you here and welcome.

Thank you. So it's a mockumentary. So it's like a documentary, but it's pretend comedy about a workplace. And there's like funny jump cuts. It's like a paper company. Yeah, funny jump cuts. It's not really how I would not. I would go there as like number 13 of the list of things that it is.

But okay. All right. It's irreverent, satirical, based on a British show? It's based on a British show. Yeah, like you are a new show. And yes, that's true. With direct to address. Yeah, talking to the camera, awareness of the cameras.

Oh, right, yeah, because, yeah. Because they're aware there's a documentary crew there. Yeah, okay. Well, we'll explain later. Okay. We're sorry, we're kind of freaked out because we've literally never had someone here. I don't know if we're funny in person with people. You're doing great so far.

Okay. I think this is good. Speaking of which, What? Rain has my desk, which comes with a whole host of responsibilities. Yeah, okay, let's talk me through this. So Rain, because you're sitting at Jonathan's desk, you have a picture of me looking at you adoringly. Oh.

Because I like Jonathan to remember what I look like when I look at him adoringly. Oh, that's very sweet. You have some Canadian flags. How did you get a couple bobblehead? So we got that as a gift. And it came in the mail with no note. So we're thinking, is this from a fan who shows too much interest in us? And it turns out it's from our, it's from Rabbit Grin.

It's from our producing team. And they just didn't include a note. But now they thought that maybe if we hated it, they would say, we don't know where that's from. Who's the 3D, uh, 3D dog? So she's come up in episodes past. That's Jazz the Dog in Caste and Glass. This is Jonathan's most beloved pet. That's so macabre.

It is strange. But I think the podcast listeners should know that there are four signs that mine printed in the early days of the podcast. I believe they're on plastic knives. Plastic knives. And that one. This makes no sense. Confidential voice? What does that mean?

It does. You clearly have never had vocal court issues. I'm a person who has a history of vocal court issues and I had vocal court surgery about two years ago. Yeah. This is the voice that the speech pathologist told me I have to use. So you have to use a gentle, confidential voice. Well, Kathleen Turner. So that's when she's.

Ramping it up too much. I have what to say. What does that mean? That's in the early days of the podcast when she wouldn't let me speak. That is a Yiddishism, meaning that is, that's an expression that is typically used. I have what to say? Exactly. It's a Yiddishism.

Okay. Oi? Also that. You're doing great? That's just because sometimes I need to be told. Oh, that's nice. And slow down. I need to be also told that.

Okay. All right. Good. Now you know the lay of the land. You don't have to use this. All right. Okay. No, that's great. This is wonderful.

So our podcast focuses on all things mental health and mental wellness. You have spoken a bit about a bit of your journey. Just for your general information, this is not a show where we bring people on to like, tell us how they fix themselves. You know, we're not. Unless you have that formula, I'm all better. I'm all completely better. Can't you tell? I'm so well adjusted. You know, you do come from an interesting.

background and we talk a lot about combination of genetics and environment which is kind of the most basic way to talk about an approach to how we get the way that we are but I think part of my interest also in speaking to you is as a character actor which is what I'm called

I don't know if you like that term. I love being called character actor but in Hollywood it's so limiting because back in the day you could be a character actor that was playing incredible lead juicy amazing roles. And now character actor, you're relegated to like the sixth lead or something like that. But you have a lead in a show. Congratulations on that. Thank you. On behalf of all character actors.

I appreciate that. It's wonderful. Thank you. And I think it's something, you know, I started acting when I was 11. And back then it was 1986. And I went out for roles, I kid you not, that said, submit all ethnicities. Because there was one kind of actor that could have a lead. And it was not, not this face, not this voice, not this body type, like different. And so I was kind of like grouped with what was called, submit all ethnicities. And I did. I started getting parts as, you know, a character actor,

but I think that notion really never left me that like, I'm not like them, you know. There's still this notion for me, you know, as a grown up that really does tap into a lot of the insecurity that I had, even before I started acting, you know. You're an unusual adult, your sense of humor, your sense of self, the way you hold yourself. What were you like as a small person? What was Tiny Rain like? I've never been introduced as you're an unusual person. You're an unusual person.

Tell us how you got there. This was a terrible idea to have a guest in person. This interview is over. This is great. No, it is. I am an unusual person and I own it and it is absolutely very true. Yeah, where do I start? I mean, there's so much to say about that. I grew up in a very weird family, Growing up in that family was extremely alienating and disjointed. And I remember my parents were so odd and awkward and such social misfits that I didn't learn kind of regular social cues growing up. So I didn't learn how to just be in the world, be comfortable in the world. Were they introverted?

Were they extroverted? Were they? What kind of lack of cues were you getting? Meaning some people have parents who are very cloistered and they never leave the house, and so they're not getting really any information about interaction with the outside world. Well, what does it say? What did Tolstoy say that famous quote of like, every happy family is the same and every unhappy family is completely different?

So it's hard to type what my parents were like. So, you know, first of all, my mom and dad split up when I was two. My mom left because she went to go have an affair. with the theater director, and then she moved into a house and raised a pet goat. And she lived on communes, and she, so she, that was my mom. I didn't really see her until I was about 15. Got it. Okay.

So my dad, he grew up under tremendous abuse. I mean, his is one of the most horrific childhoods you could ever possibly imagine. And he kind of just as a nine-year-old was raising his seven-year-old sister as his dad took off on drunken sprees across Europe. So he was just awkward in that way. And then my stepmom who kind of raised me, she was just awkward and odd to introverted, artistic, bohemian, offbeat in every conceivable way.

But I remember, I mean, there's so much to unpack around it. And I don't want this thing to be just an extended therapy session. But I will say that when I was in junior high in high school, I would watch kids to see how normal kids related to. each other. So I'd be like in the lunchroom in junior high and I'd see Steve go over to Mike and be like Hey Mike, how's it going brother?

Have a good weekend? And like hit him with his elbow, let's say. And then so I would take mental notes like oh okay. That's a Hey, what a what a cool like what is it? Relaxed social interaction between two bros between two dudes. Let me try that.

So I'd go up to you know John and be like hey John how to go this weekend brother and hit and try and reenact it obviously failing miserably so I felt a little bit like an alien in suburban Seattle that was like observing humans to see like this what do homo sapiens do and how do I fit in it was almost like Mork and Mindy or third rock from the sun kind of literally an alien in in a human environment did you have siblings no only child wow yeah that's also and then A lot. And then my parents were also members of the Baha'i faith. So Baha' only child. And they didn't love each other.

So that was also, you know, a weird. So it's this weird, it's a petri dish for total dysfunction. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water. There's no real data.

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They also have nutritional guidance, tips for lifestyle and behavioral adjustments. You even get your true biological age that you can track over time. Superpower used to cost $499.99. Right now, it's $199 for the full experience, which is much more affordable than anything else out there. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My Ambiotics Breakdown to help support the show. You went to public school? Yeah.

There's not schooling as part of the Baha'i faith, correct? That's right, yeah. Okay. No, it just went to public school. So you went to public school, you played the clarinet and the bassoon. Yes. Let's talk about it. I was a trumpet player.

Oh, wow. And I was in bands and orchestra. Well, you know, not as sexy as the bassoon. No. But let's talk about the bassoon. Did you start with clarinet? Yeah. So recorder, everyone played the recorder, you know, green sleeves.

Yeah, yeah. And then moved to clarinet. Got it. And no obo in the middle? No obo in the middle. That sounds dirty, doesn't it? Straight to bassoon. You want to play obo in the middle?

Let's go straight to bassoon. So I played a little bit of saxophone, and I wanted to play saxophone, and I went to my junior high. You're like, this read is too big. Smaller read, please. But I wanted to play it, and the band teacher, who was actually his name was John Law. John Law, Kellogg Middle School in Seattle said, oh, we've got two. many sax players, I mean the sax players were cool. They had Hawaiian shirts and they'd wear sunglasses and they'd do the thing kind of like Bill Clinton did. Like, you know, they'd kind of

sway back and forth. And I wanted to be part of that group so much. Again, I wanted to fit in in that row of saxophone players, you know, and finally I'd be able to fit in. And he's like, oh, but you know what? Oh, God. There is an instrument. That is so cool. And it's so, it's really interesting and awesome and people are going to love it. And it's sounds amazing, and it's called the bassoon. And I was just hooked in. I was like, okay, you know, I had visions of being like people just admiring me with me and my big, beautiful bassoon. It like comes in a million and a half pieces, too. Yes, you have to, it takes 20 minutes to assemble. That's right. It's like a very, it's the

instrument for people who need to show up early and stay late. Exactly. But you're not even bringing in the whole, the reed thing. You have to pre-sum. soak the reeds. You have to carve the reeds. You have to make the reads. You have to adjust the reeds. They always break. You've got to have backup reads and little vials of water to soak the reeds. So Jonathan, you clearly were not in orchestra. I wasn't in band, no. Because there's like a very... Yeah, he's a blank stare on his face.

I'm the third child and after the first two, my parents were like, no, we don't need to put you in music. It's too much trouble for us. Just go play hockey and see what breaks. Correct. I actually wanted to play trombone and my arms were not long enough. True story. Still aren't. So I ended up playing the trumpet and I was in jazz band actually for for all of middle school. Oh, cool. We had an unbelievable. We had one of those music teachers who like, she won awards and like she, you know, she, her name was Ms. Gardea, and then she married a man whose last name was Matsamune. And then she was Ms. Gardia, Matzamune. Oh, wow. That's a mouthful. So, yeah. But she was, she was unbelievable. And so we had full orchestra.

and then I was also in jazz band, which was humiliating for a lot of reasons. I was one of the only girls. We should duet. Yes. Do you still have a trumpet? Just, I, you know, I finally just parted with my trumpet. I do play piano, which was my first instrument,

and I play bass guitar. This is a keyboard that I'm gesturing to. Yeah. Did you have friends? What was your kind of social life like? I did have friends. Yes, I did have friends. Were they also misfitty?

Yeah, so, you know, suburban Seattle, late 70s, early 80s, as nerdy as you'd ever want to possibly imagine human beings. And I'm really not, it's not an exaggeration. I mean, it's walking home from school with my bassoon, my pimply face. I was about 143 pounds and still 6'2. And Dungeons and Dragons all weekend long.

I was on Model United Nations. I was in the ceramics club, the computer club. Sometimes all of these would be at the same time. So, yeah, and it was, but it was, you know, it was really different back then. It was like, there was something really wonderful about that. Like, I'm really grateful because we were so nerdy

that I never even worried about fitting in. I'm never going to be liked. I'm never going to, I'm never going to be, I'm never going to fit in. It wasn't like nerds today where they're kind of revered and like, oh, gamers are cool. and, you know, comic book readers are cool and, you know, nerdy filmmakers are cool. It was, you were, you were ostracized and cast out,

and you got the shit beat out of you. Yeah, I went to, I went to an absurd middle school, which was essentially an academic prep school, and we were all expected to really be, like, finishing our high school requirements by the seventh grade, and it was just one of these, like, you know, we were all expected to go to Ivy Leagues, and, you know, we had a portion of the quad that was ours,

And we could not leave that because of what would happen if you did. And I was in chess club. I mean, like I was on the chess team. Yeah, I was in chess club. And I mean, I have many, many stories. And, you know, I was also on television for part of this time. Wow. I started on Blossom when I was 14 and I was, yeah, in ninth grade.

It didn't help, you know, people like, oh, is that? Because I wasn't like a hammy, like, I love being famous kind of kid. I was very embarrassed just to exist. You know, I just wanted to, like, be swallowed into the earth. Like, I really, that, you know, I was like an accidental successful person as a teenager. I really do. I relate to that notion, you know, also of, like, you know, finding a niche of comfort, but still kind of wishing that it wasn't the comfortable place.

You know, I really, there was a hierarchy even among, you know, this group of academic kids. And a lot of that has stayed with me, you know. girls in particular had a very hard time. I never really clicked well with girls. Girls aren't interested in chess and trumpets? And neuroscience? And boxing in sports cars. Where I kind of,

I wanted to kind of ask you about high school rain, because when I found Salinger and when I found Sartra, and when I found Camus, I mean, there was absolutely a level of pretension to it. Like, you know, I had, like, I had pen pals and we would write with ink that we dipped, you know, we had like a quill, and we would write with glass pens, and we would go to the antique markets. Wow. Yeah, we were, and, like, for purses, we used vintage medicine case. Like, I was

that girl. I was the girl with, like, the vintage medicine case as my purse. And, like, and besides the kind of superficial aspects, you know, for me, there was a deep, you know, a deep comfort that I found in intellectualism. And not for the purpose of thinking I'm better than other people. It wasn't like that, it was like, there are people who speak a language that's very familiar to me, and they wrote books about it many, many decades ago. And so it kind of became a big part of my kind of high school experience and identity. And obviously being on television at that time and growing up in the public, like very, very complicated and confusing. And I also came from a very complicated home that, you know, in many ways looked really good. And there was a lot of,

there was a lot of darkness. You know, I come from a home. with a tremendous amount of mental illness and, you know, parents who did the best they could, but hurt people hurt, as I'm sure you can relate to. There was also this tremendous sense of needing to belong anywhere, you know, except the place that I really had to be. So I'm curious, you know, for you as you kind of got into high school, did you find performance then? Did it come later? You know, where was a place that you found sort of some sort of comfort? Yeah, well, just going back a little bit, you know, my gratitude for the nerdy times at school was that I could read hundreds of science fiction books, which I spent my adolescent doing, and I spent countless hours playing Dungeons and Dragons, spent hours playing chess. But then also my nerdy friends and I were comedy geeks.

So we were watching all the early Saturday Night Lives and staying up together and discovering SCTV and Monty Python and memorizing Monty Python scenes. So it was this little, again, I used the petri dish analogy for my fucked up family, but the petri dish of kind of that kind of weird little creativity that we found in our little corner of suburban Seattle. So but yeah, as I, so I had a transformational moment happen when I said my parents were members of the Baha'i faith. And when I was 16, we moved across the country. We moved from Seattle. my parents were extremely unhappy, fighting all the time. And we moved across the country together, though, unfortunately, to Wilmet, Illinois, north of Chicago,

because that's where the Baha'i Temple is, the Bahae House of Worship, for those who have seen it, this beautiful structure on Sheridan Road right on the lake north of Chicago. And the Baha'i National Center is close nearby. My dad got a job at the National Baha'i Center, kind of working in the church offices, essentially. But that area of Chicago

is extremely wealthy. And I was, we were very poor even in Seattle. We drove a Ford Pinto and had a 900 square foot house. And so then we moved, literally it was like being in a John Hughes movie. Like we moved to the wealthiest suburb, one of the wealthiest suburbs in America.

And we stayed in the only, we lived in the only apartment building that was in the locus, the circumference of that school district, a little two-bedroom apartment. And all of a sudden I was going to this extremely wealthy high school. Don't get be started on the educational system in America

and how being based on property taxes, how screwed up that makes everything. But it had an incredible arts program and a very famous theater program and it was kind of infamous. Rock Hudson had gone there and I don't know, Anne Margaret and lots of famous actors had gone through this program

and people that were members of Steppenwolf and whatnot. And so I had always harbored this, secret desire to be an actor, even as nerdy as I was. And so I auditioned and I got in an acting class. And I remember the first week of this acting class at this new school. One of the, I tried to re-identify myself when I went to this new school. I was also into kind of punk rock and stuff. So I started wearing, you know, black flag t-shirts and clash t-shirts and ripped jeans and skinny ties and stuff like that. So it was, again, very John Hughesy. And in the first week

of school they had an exercise called private and public. So you're supposed to be like in your room but in front of an audience doing what you do in your room, right? And I put on an Elvis Costello song and was like dancing around with my fake cat and just going crazy.

And it got this rousing applause and people were screaming and laughing and I finished it and I was the new kid and all of these really cute girls came up and were like, you're so funny. And they were like touching me on the shoulders and like, you're so funny. You should sit at our lunch table. My name's blah, blah, blah, my name's blah, blah, blah.

Come sit with us and hang out. And all of a sudden I was like, in my head, it was just there was this gong of clarity. Gong, like, you are not going to go on the chess team. You're not going to play bassoon anymore. You're not going to, this is it. You know what I mean? Which is cute and funny. and also a little bit sad

that I would just completely turn directions like, oh, I have some skill here in acting, but it allowed me to fit in. All of a sudden, I was like socially desired in some way, shape, or form. But that desire to fit in and being alienated from fitting in

is a thread that runs through my life as well as other mental health issues, but that has, I've embraced it as an actor. I just feel like, this is who I am, and I kind of learned that early on in my career that I'm not going to pretend to be something that I'm not. And I'm just, I'm going to play misfits.

That's why I am. I'm going to play alienated misfits. And I'm going to be damn good at it. And, you know, so be it. This is an odd question, which I don't think I've ever asked anyone in my life. I will not take my shirt off. No. I was on a show called The Big Bang Theory.

Yes. And I'm curious if you watched that show. Yeah, I've seen many episodes of that show. Because, you know, our show was, you know, about the kind of people who were in chess club and, you know, played D&D and we had episodes around D&D. You know, seeing characters also who were exceptionally unusual as the norm, you know, really felt comforting to me. I have never heard you ask anyone if they've watched. I don't think I've asked anyone in my life if I've ever. You usually hide the fact that you were on that show.

I don't even like to talk about it. I don't talk about it. You don't talk about it. That show was kind of. of everywhere. Yeah, but people say that about the office. And now I feel like such a adult. But that 10 years also was sort of the turning point in the zeitgeist of popularizing

the nerd and making the nerd cool or the quote unquote nerd. Yeah, but I would get asked that a lot. And as someone who does like who has played D&D and like who was on chess club and you know. You still play D&D. I do. Okay, but I haven't had a campaign right now. But yeah.

Okay. No, but I like to point out that like it's fun to have photo shoots of like nerd she. and, you know, like, the sexy scientist, like, with her shirt unbuttoned and her glasses. Like, that's not, that's not the reality of, you know, what. It's not every lab you ever. No, and just like, people still don't like you if you're weird. And I think, I have what to say? It's the best use of that card so far.

Listen. Yes. The thing that pisses me off is all the people claiming their nerd cred, like Charlize their own. I love this. I was so nerdy in high school. and no one like talked to me and I was so nerd

it's like can I swear on this part? Fuck you! Fuck you! As someone who got the shit beat out of him and mocked and humiliated when our chess team won the state tournament and I was fifth board

and they created a giant banner in the high school. Congratulations chess on winning state and we all walked in one morning, me and my chest nerdy friends and were like, oh my God, that's so great. And they were waiting and they saw us and they started laughing at us.

They made it as a joke. The Glee Club, pep club made it as a joke. So fuck you, Charlize Theron. And Jennifer Aniston and everyone who's like, oh, we're so, give me a fucking break. You have no idea. Wait, my favorite.

My favorite is when they ask people, like, were you a geek? I was a theater geek. That's totally different. Totally different. Being a theater geek is very different. Very different. Than having your nickname be weird out.

Yeah. Absolutely. Very, very different. You know, we can joke about nerddom, but under, if you just dig a little bit deeper, it was a kid who never felt like he would fit in. And then you dig a little bit deeper, and it's a kid who never felt like he was really loved. And then a kid who didn't love himself and living in a home with a loveless marriage, where we would pretend to be a family,

we would have meatloaf for dinner and watch mash on TV, but there wasn't actual love there. The anxiety and depression that that created in me, while it's like, oh, it's goofy, I read, I read 200 science fiction books or 500 or however many.

Yeah, it's funny to joke about, but in reality, it was because I was lonely and depressed and sitting in my room and not socializing and just reading science fiction books. Thank God there weren't screens, because I would have just been looking at porn or whatever on thumbing through.

I would not have lasted in school if social media had existed with the level of fear and anxiety that I experienced, especially from other girls. That dysfunction led to me being really miserable in my 20s, you know, because then I was suffering from acute anxiety disorder. I would have panic attacks all the time and, you know, suffered from depression and addiction. issues and all of these things stemming from this really like seemingly happy but but terribly unhappy alienated childhood. I just made a movie and. Congratulations. Thank you.

And I keep telling my mother it's not an autobiography because it's not. But there are, about a 14 year old girl on a sitcom. No, no. You know, one thing that I'm, I'm curious about and and, you know, my parents were together for 53 years and my father of blessed memory died six years ago. And like this was, you know, literally like my mother's other half, you know, they met as teenagers. They kind of grew up together. They both lived at home until they lived with each other and, you know, fell into a lot of kind of old country.

They were both first generation Americans and fell into a lot of kind of, you know, old country sort of patterns. Like I never saw my father cook or clean or like go to the supermarket. But like she also, she never pumped gas. Like, you know, like he did, they had a very old fashioned relationship. And they were deeply madly and, you know, sweetly, codependently. you know, attached at the hip. But there was. There was a lot of times where I thought it might be better maybe if we didn't all live together, you know. I think about that in terms of, you know, the impact that it has on a young person in terms of how you structure, not only your own kind of self-worth and your concept of feeling loved or worthy or like there's space for you, you know. But I also do know that it has and does.

does impact my interactions with other people in terms of intimacy. And I don't just mean, first of all, I'm not you talking about like sex. I just mean even friendships. You know, the way that I organize the world is based on a very specific model that, you know, from a neuroscience perspective, is not something you can snap out of easily. You know, for me, I started going to therapy when I was about 17. And, you know, to be honest, I've never really left. I'm one of those people who believes in psychotherapy, and I've been with my current therapist

for 20 years. It's very hard to admit that, but it's true. Yeah. You know, for me, I cannot function without therapy. I can't. I can't and I don't. But I am curious about sort of when you think about kind of growing up without love like that, what were the steps that you took or continue to take to build up that particular aspect of your life?

Because it's a very specific way that you describe, you know, a kind of loveless marriage. And I'm curious if there's been a process of therapy. Is it a process of, is it your faith? You know, was it meeting the person that you chose to build a life with? Yeah. Great. Thank you for sharing that. And a great question.

Yeah, I have been in therapy. I've had the same therapist for 10 years. And I had another therapist for 10 years before that. I started therapy when I was incredibly depressed when I was about 20, three, 24 years old. And I was doing a lot of drugs, and I couldn't get out of bed in the morning. And I, fortunately, I was still covered under the NYU plan. So I paid like $5 to go to a therapist.

And that got me started on that journey. And I think that I agree with you 100%. It's so weird how people are resistant to therapy. Like, you'll talk to a couple that's in trouble. Like, oh, he doesn't want to go to therapy. It's like, or she doesn't want to go. Why don't you go to therapy? Oh, I tried therapy.

I don't like, like, like, why would you not spend 50 minutes in a week? Here's a week, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Why would you not take 50 of these 60-second minutes, 50 of them, that's all, to deepen yourself, to learn how to break patterns, to, to process trauma, to examine your life, your feelings, your emotions, your soul, to, like, why would you not make that investment? And it is, sometimes it's expensive, but there's cheap therapy. you can absolutely find now it's online which is great. This segment is brought to you by BetterHelp. That process has been really important. Got it.

I've been in 12 steps. I've gone to pretty much every kind of 12-step meeting that exists out there. I have dabbled in and gotten great comfort and help from. And some of my best friends are ones that I've met in 12-step meetings because it's hard. You were talking about like intimacy and making friends. It's really hard in contemporary. society to make friends. It really is hard. People don't want to go deep and they resist. But in 12 steps, in fact, folks listening at home, maybe you're not even addicted. Hit a 12-step meeting just to get

to know people and to share your heart and share on a deeper level and create kind of bonds of friendship. I hate, you know, I'll go out to quote-unquote friends of mine to lunch here that I've worked with for years in Hollywood and we'll talk about like, what did you think of this movie? What did you watch that on Netflix? Can you believe something? So-and-so got cast with that? Can we, it's just like... Call a program friend, and they'll be like, I'm deep in grief because this happened.

Yes. I'm processing heavily. I need some self-care. Would you like to take a walk? And then I need to take a nap, and I need to not speak to you for a day, and then let's hit a meeting tomorrow. Exactly.

Exactly. And also just a shout out for that. If you know anyone who's drinking bothers you or drug use, go to an Al-Anon meeting. Chances are... It doesn't have to be somewhere in your family. If there's anyone in your life who's ever accused you of trying to manage or control them or you're too bossy or mind your own business, you probably need an Al-Anon meeting. Amen.

Just go online and find one. And if you find your life powerless because of the behavior of others, go to a CODA meeting. So it just can be any kind of someone else's behavior. Yeah. We could go on and on. Yeah. But most importantly, and I think part of my journey, similar to years, has been my faith journey. So when I was going through these dark times and mental health struggles, and I still deal with them on a daily basis, but when I was greatly suffering, I had rejected the Baha'i faith of my youth. And I write about this in my book, The Bassoon King, about my journey kind of coming back to faith. And the tools that I found in the Baha'i faith that helped me with this, prayer and meditation, thinking, learning to be of service to others. Not that I succeed at that.

whole lot, but, you know, attempting to be of service to others and to the world as a way of finding your own path and identity. And many, many more things I found great solace in my faith journey and my spiritual journey, which is supported by good therapy and supported by 12 steps and is something that should be embraced. Also supported by science, because the notion of routine and ritual and community, the things. that happen to you when you meditate, when you pray, when you have focused attention, and when you build a life around making space for those interactions, those are things that actually do contribute by and large, you know, to a larger sense of well-being, which is not to say

that religion saves you from ailments. That's not the point. But we're talking about we are human beings and human organisms that are living with a need for a support system and structure surrounding our mental health because we are functioning in a reality that is very, very bizarre. Like our existence is unbelievable. You know, I, you know, I, you know, I'm grateful for that awareness. Yeah. Let's go back to your question.

When you said, why wouldn't people take? Like, what is that resistance to therapy? Yeah. What do you think it is? I mean, fear and denial. I think that they're afraid to face challenges that they might be having. and I think they're in denial about challenges. What do you think that fear is?

I guess it's a fear of having, a fear of being confronted about patterns, you know, because a good therapist will do care frontation. And, uh, yes, that's one I learned along the way. But a good care frontation would be a therapist saying,

you know, Bobby, I've noticed you doing X, Y, and Z time and time again. Calling you out on your stuff. Why do you think that you do? Like, That can be challenging. People get very defensive, you know.

And I think that defensiveness is something that should be obliterated. Why does anyone need to ever be defensive ever? Think about it. Why do you ever, why would anyone ever need to be defensive? Well, you want to know what all the people I've dated say. If you wouldn't attack me, I wouldn't be defensive, which could also be true. You're hiding shame and fear most of the time. I made a joke.

Oh, he didn't like my joke. I think he did like your joke. No, it was funny. My am also the running joke on the podcast that I need to go to more therapy and Mike wants me to be more engaged in therapy. I believe in therapy wholeheartedly. And more than that, I believe that we are taught from a very young age not to address whatever emotion or issue that is going on with us so that we fit in. And so that conditioning happens at a very young age. And then so to be told at pick an age that, okay, now I'm going to go and I'm going to face

whatever discomfort I'm used to masking or pushing away from, and that now the appropriate responses I'm going to lean into that. I think fundamentally people have been trained to avoid that. Part of the reason people have a difficult time with therapy in 15 minutes is because I'm going to open up something that I don't know that I'm going to be able to put back together, and the goal of a good therapist is to round it up and sort of package you back up so you can exist in the world. But it does feel like two separate existences. One is this world. of being, exploring your insides and your feelings and your patterns. And then the other is you're dealing a lot of the time in a world that has a ton of BS in it.

And you're having to not express what's really going on for you. And people have a very hard time when you're talking about 12 steps and you're talking about people who have been in a lot of therapy. They have a lexicon of self-reflective skills and vocabulary that can share a lot of money for these skills. Well, and I think also COVID, you know, this past year has. has been a real shakeup for a lot of people. Because, you know, I like to point out, if you didn't like the person you were married to before, how about you can never leave the house?

Right. You know? You know, I think that that's, it's pushed a lot of relationships to very interesting places. People also, because of the coping mechanisms and where their life is, if you start unpacking it, you may realize that you have to rip it all down. And I think there's an investment in,

oh, maintaining status quo as survival versus, it takes a lot of work to discover that you don't like the person that you may be married to and you have to change your entire life. That's when the acronism becomes, face everything and recover. Yeah. I can do this all day. One of the things we talked about when I metaphysically milkshaked with you and Reza, you know, there's also this notion of it takes a lot of work.

You have to put in a lot of work to reap benefits that get you what you want. a lot of people don't want to do the things that religion requires of you. You know, they don't like that there are requirements, and it feels very counter to our liberal and progressive consciousness. Like, what do you mean I have to show up at this time? What do you mean there's a way that people dress? Like, I don't want to do that. You know, I'm just going to stop my foot at it, right?

Or the notion of, like, ritual. What do you mean? There's certain times of day that I have to do something. I'll do it whenever I want, you know? And I feel like there's a similar, you know, know, we can get into a similar kind of mode of thinking about therapy or about recovery, right? Like, what do you mean there's steps? I have to call someone. I have to pick up a, like, I'm so terminally unique that if I don't want to do it, it means that it shouldn't be done,

right? Instead of, there are other people who have been where you are before. And I think that's, you know, ultimately, and this feels like a good place to kind of, you know, close up as it were. there are people who have experienced a lot of tragedy and a lot of trauma and a lot of pain who do go on to find ways to to have contentment to have fulfillment. You are a person who, you know, not that being married is the end all be all, but you are a person who has a family. You have pets. You don't have a goat, but you have other pets. Pigs. That's right. You also, are you plant-based?

Is that correct? No, no. But you have been? I was, yeah. You dabble. You dabble. I was for a while. Wait, but now you're flexi.

It says that I'm on my Wikipedia page, but I'm not. I'm just saying we need to change your wiki because I had it. But in any event, you are a person who has put in a tremendous amount of work. A recovery journey is the same as a spiritual journey. And frankly, it's a human journey. And that is to make ourselves the best possible version of ourselves over the course of our lives. We're going to make mistakes along the way. But this, you've got to put in the work if you want the benefit to it.

some of the benefits are a feeling of well-being, you know, that maybe you didn't have. I have a feeling of well-being now, generally, day-in, day out that I didn't have when I was in my 20s because I've done a lot of fucking work on it. And it's been work in a lot of ways. It's work to develop a relationship with my higher power. And it's work to learn how to be a better husband to my wife, which is I was a really crappy husband for a lot of our marriage. And I've learned how to be a much better husband. And it's been a lot of fucking work. And it's been therapy.

And it's, it's been, you know, consultation. And so this, again, going back to the therapy thing, a lot of people are like, oh, therapy, it's expensive. I can't afford it. Like, well, if you're stuck in your life and yes, you're, and let's say you're spending, you know, $150, $200 a week on therapy, and that's, you know, that's super expensive. And I know a lot of people can't afford that. But if you look at it as a long-term investment, if over, if three to five years later, all of a sudden,

you have renewed confidence and belief in yourself and well-being and an open mind. All of a sudden, like, incredible bounties can come your way. And also, you don't, I think another point along those lines, it's not like when you think about weight loss, right? Like, oh, I'm going to put in the work so that I can lose the, you know, name a number, the 15 or 20 pounds. And it might come back, right? But the progress that you achieve when you do this work on yourself, the idea is not that

your life will never be hard or that you'll never. experience hardship or that you won't get depressed. But the idea is that you now have a foundation with which to be, if you arrive in the same place, you have spiraled up. You're not in, you're never in the same place again. It's evolution. Right. You have evolved. And the same thing happens through the spiritual work and whatever your faith community or however you find a connection to something transcendent and bigger than you. And you were referencing contemporary society because we live in a society that values the ego above all things. I mean, look at who our president was. Like, it's ego uber alas. It's like, I'm me and self-will and I can do it. And what about me

Instagramming myself and blah and broadcasting myself? And so the faith journey, recovery journey, therapy journey is about, you know, we're in a self-centered society. It's about being other-centered. So other person-centered and how you grow and evolve from that. Do you have a meditation practice? I do. I meditate every day. I keep it very simple. It's about 15 minutes and it's just about quieting the mind. You do it in the morning? I try to do it in the morning. Sometimes I'll forget and answer a bunch of emails and get on a call and then like, ah, shit, it's 1 o'clock. I'll do my meditation. But I try and do it in the morning. I think a lot of people think that it has to be fancy and has to use an app or have a mantra or something like that. It really can be. And in fact, it can just be, sitting at a stoplight in your car and closing your eyes for 30 seconds to breathe. Breathing is part of meditation and to just quiet the thoughts of the mind because we are, and as another thing, spirituality teaches us, we're not our thoughts.

Thoughts are a helpful tool. They can be. Sometimes thoughts you are describing OCD thoughts can be an impediment to feeling of well-being. But my identity, your identity, our identities, is not based on thoughts. It's based on some other reality that is above and beyond and within and without thought. I love that. Can I ask you one silly question? Yeah.

Do people expect you to, I mean, I'm asking you this because this is something that happens to me and has for pretty much. Yeah, yeah. Do people, like, expect you and want you to be, like, cute and funny? Sitcom character actors having a conversation about being sitcom character actors. That's not what I'm asking. No, I just like, because. No, but it is where you are. And it's fine.

No, but I know that your character on the office, like, I mean, I've seen enough things to know. Like, you know, you, you had, you were quirky and you had like isms. And, you know, like, and I just wonder, like, is the thing that people, like, do they expect that and want that? Yes, they absolutely do. What's that like? People want me to be Dwight. That's what I mean. I mean.

Right. I always find it really funny on, like, Twitter, I'll tweet about vaccines or I'll tweet about climate change. And people would be like, Dwight would never get vaccinated, unfollowed. Right. Dwight wouldn't care about climate change. He would think it was BS. Unfollowed. Like, right.

So create an account for a fictional character that was on a TV show and follow it. That's fine. But so, but there is, yeah, there's a constant standard of like, oh, you're not like Dwight at all. It's like, do people understand how acting works? Like, seriously, like, she gets out all the time. Well, and also because, I mean, I think because I was on television, as a teenager, there's a certain ownership that we have over young people, you know, as a culture.

And yes, I will say that there's a certain ownership we have over females that is, it's different. I promise you, it's different. And that notion of like, why aren't you smiling? I mean, I got asked that all the time as a teenage girl. And I was like, because do you not know what's happening to the planet? I was like, because we're all dying slowly. Like, have you not read the plague? Rain, you said something that I don't have the exact quote for, but you were talking about,

meditation and you're talking about a spiritual practice and relationship to a higher power, you were talking about the mind and our thoughts and you're like, there's an existence outside of that that is, you didn't say another reality, but it did speak to me as like a different form of consciousness. And can you talk a little bit about your relationship with another, not reality, but it is to a certain degree. Like when you have a relationship with a higher power with your spiritual practice, you're tapping into something, you're opening up another form of consciousness and, you know, that's where I was wanting to. I'd like to answer this briefly first because it is about your faith and one of the most

profound experiences, which I think we spoke about on my physical education, one of the most profound religious experiences I have ever had was at the Baha'i Temple in Haifa, which is in the north of Israel. And the temple there is, I mean, it's exquisite and in particular known for its hanging gardens. And it is a stunning, stunning place, just visually. There were a lot of different rooms, but there was a prayer room that has no icons in it. You know, the Baha'i faith respects and honors, the traditions of all prophecy. I mean, is that a safe? Yeah, we find a universality in all religions coming from the same divine source. Great. Yes. And so it's a beautiful room. There were some flowers. It was very, very quiet. And something happened in that room that, to me, meaning in my

experience that is not, it's not quantifiable. And it was, it was a very specific sensation. I was not on the drugs. I was not drunk. I was simply sitting. And this was even at a time in my life when I wasn't particularly religiously dialed in. But something happened that I call divine. You can call it whatever you want. But to me, that's the ecstatic, transcendental experience that we can have as humans. And I'm, I'm sure it happens other places, but I would be curious, kind of your, um, you know, your take on this kind of other reality. Tell me more. You just had a, just a glimpse or a feeling or a, yeah, it was a, it was a, it was a special feeling. If I had to put names to it, I'd say that there was a sense of like safety and comfort. Mm-hmm.

There was a sense of calm, which felt different from any other calm. And it felt like there has to be a different word for what this is. than any other word I've ever used. Yeah, a kind of tranquility. Yeah, but even that doesn't feel sufficient. Yeah. You know? Jonathan, did you want to say something?

You wanted to add something? I discovered energy work when I was 17. My sister had decades of health problems, and she transformed her life through a variety of things that I didn't really understand because I was six years, six and a half years younger than her. And at 17, I started doing Semitic body work, and I went in, you know, extremely emotionally shut down.

and living with an enormous amount of family trauma that had happened. And I went in and I was like thinking that I was going to get some sort of magical code or saying to say to like give me superpowers. And I quickly realized over a four day workshop, like that wasn't going to happen. And I was very disappointed. But at the end of the four days, I began to have a sensation in my hands that someone, you know, could call energy. But I didn't understand what that would even mean.

But it was fundamentally unexplainable and profound. The larger takeaway for me has always been there's more that I don't understand that I am curious about. And meditation is a way to get there for me. And so when you were just talking about, you know, where this all started, what you were sharing made me feel like there was more there that I was very curious about. For me, it's really simple. So if you're an atheist and you say we live in a material world and there's just a lot of empty space with stuff in it and there's a lot of empty space with stuff in it and there's a, energy and there's certain scientific laws in that empty space. And that's all there is because that's all that can be proven. And through some accident of molecules bumping into each other,

we became human beings and we have this consciousness. And we last 70, 80 years and then it snuffs and it's out. And the only meaning that we have is what we have along that way of those 70 years. That's one way to live a life. And that's all fine and good. But I think a spiritual perspective for any one of any spiritual tradition is that we are something greater than our bodies and our consciousnesses. That there is a soul, if you call it that. There's an eternal aspect to us. And we're riding around in flesh suits for a limited amount of time. And when our meat tuxedos fall off, sluff off and die, there's some continuation of. a journey. And in looking at life

that way, I think it allows one for hope that there is a purpose and a meaning to this beyond just kind of like, oh, fuck it, I only got 70 or 80 years on this world. What do I do? I don't know. I guess I like spearfishing. I guess I go for spearfishing. Like there is more like

we're building something, we're working on something, where we're growing something beautiful inside of ourselves, our souls, our spirits, that we're taking on some eternal journey toward the divine, whatever that looks like. I won't even use the God word because that could freak people out. But I think going back to mental health, I think, yes, I've had experiences of that. And I think that using spiritual tools can help us on our journey toward

mental health, toward balance, toward finding hope, meaning, and purpose in our lives. You've found it in the energy work. You find it in the Jewish community. I find it in the Bahai community, and holy writings and practice. And that's okay. And we can all work together and love each other and support each other and everyone listening and whatever, you know, their spiritual path is. That's so nice. Let him go.

Let him go. I'm going to just say that I'm just such a so appreciative of SoulPancake and, you know, in my day job as someone who had worked in the corporate world making content, a lot of content. Yeah. I would always use SoulPancake as the example. example of how you can make content for good and with purpose and that you, you know, making content is a wildly powerful endeavor that reaches so many people. And I'm just so appreciative of that as a model and example. So having an opportunity to share that with you is very special.

Oh, thanks so much. I appreciate that. Thank you again for being our first in-person guest. We obviously got very excited and just kept talking and talking and talking. This is great. Thank you. This is fantastic. What a pleasure. What an honor. Thank you for having me. I was in Miami Biolix bedroom, folks. That's what this was all about. That's the title of I spent hours with Myam in her bedroom, folks. Oh, okay, from our breakdown to the one that we hope you never have from us and Rain Wilson. We'll see you next time. It's Miami Bialyx breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One, fiction. And now she's going to break down. It's a...