Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Raven-Symoné & Miranda Pearman-Maday: Feel Better in Your Skin

Episode Date: November 22, 2022

Raven-Symoné (That’s So Raven, Raven’s Home, The View, Cosby Show) & her wife Miranda Pearman-Maday (content creator, producer, writer, doula) join us to discuss defense mechanisms, their individual therapy journeys, and the confining nature of labels when it comes to sexuality and gender. They explain how their sexualities protected their true identities and their struggles with depression. Raven opens up about her past relationships with people with narcissistic tendencies, her parents’ reservations about therapy, and her PTSD and anger challenges. She and Mayim bond over their strikingly similar coping mechanisms from having grown up as child actors, their abilities to read others, and how celebrity can heighten people-pleasing tendencies. Miranda reveals how somatic therapy has helped her, and Raven shares her positive experiences with shadow and energy work. Raven & Miranda's YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@8pm890 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

At this point, she had packed up her house in L.A. With a sick-ass party that everyone still talks about to today. It wasn't that sick. And she was staying at my place. So the last four days that she was staying in Los Angeles, and this is the second week of my knowing her. She lived with me. Also red flag.

That's a lesbian thing. It's a lesbian thing. It's a lesbian thing. And she could have stayed somewhere else. She just wanted to stay with me. Obviously. Anyhow. It's my Be All-Expring.

She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. Hi, I'm Miami-Bi-A-Lic and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. Got a very special couple of friends coming to visit us today on Miami-Bi-Aleck's breakdown. But first, my favorite friend, Jonathan Cohen. Hello, Myam.

Jonathan, we have two people coming to visit us today. We like a couple. We do like a couple. That couple is none other than Raven Simone Pierman Mayday and her wife, Miranda, Pierman Mayday. You may know Raven because she was, well, I know her because she was cast on the Cosby show when she was three years old. She has been on hanging with Mr. Cooper. That's So Raven, also Blackish. And she's the executive producer, director. And also. obviously, actor on Disney's Raven's Home, which is in its fifth season. And she and her wife, Miranda, who's from L.A., they actually have a YouTube channel together called 8 p.m. that they're going to tell us about. They have a production company they're working on. They're really, really awesome. Miranda is a doula. She has a podcast. We have so many things to talk to these two humans about. Raven and Miranda have so many interesting things as a couple that they talk

about in terms of their relationship and how they met and how they kind of function as a couple. But there's also a lot that Raven and I really, really connect about. Are you two mirror images of each other? I know about mirror images. I mean, I think of myself as like, I started acting when I was in middle school. It's so different than like 16 months old, which is when she started. But we have a lot of similar kind of coping mechanisms just for being human, which I don't think it's specific just to child actors or people in the industry, but it is a certain kind of

personality that's been molded, you know, by a really exceptional set of circumstances. And this is a really fun one. Let's welcome Raven and Miranda to The Breakdown. Break it down. It's really fun to get to talk to both of you, especially since Jonathan and I are people who work together, work together closely and really, really have a lot of respect for the work that the two of you were doing together. And it's really just exciting to get to speak to both of you. So a welcome. Thank you. Thank you for having us. You are in L.A. But Raven, you were born in Atlanta. And Miranda, you're from L.A. Is that right? Yes. Like you. Born and raised. I was actually born in San Diego, but raised here. But it is, it is rare to meet people who are actually from L.A. And there's work that you do together that I do want to talk about.

but I do also want to ask Raven just like a couple questions to kind of orient people. So first of all, you look amazing. Like you look like you have not aged. I mean, obviously many of us, you came into many of our consciousness when you were a wee one. And you actually had started modeling at 16 months. Like you were a, I don't know if it's like a toddler model. Is that a thing? Yeah, diapers were I was killing the game.

I was dripping in diapers. I would imagine you don't have any. specific memory of that. I don't remember yesterday. Same. One of the things that I wanted to sort of ask you about is, you know, you are a person who really grew up literally, you know, kind of with that consciousness of other, you know, observing. What do you sort of like, even reflecting back, like when you think about, you know, that 16 month old, what do you sort of, you know, imagine that sort of trajectory was like and sort of how that impacted you? I know it's kind of a big question to start off with. Well, I think it's my whole life. I don't really have anything to compare it to. So impacting is,

I mean, I can answer that question as easily as saying this is all I've ever known. So any of my actions or behaviors stem from that, good, bad and ugly. I think that growing up in the industry from the age of 16 months to 36 years old leaves an interesting trail of breadcrumbs that can be used in a positive light for others, can help others, can inform others. And when it comes to me personally, I'm dealing with that through my therapist. Thank you very much. You were cast in the Cosby show when you were three years old. And here's a strange little fun connection. I was on a show called Blossom when I was 14 to 19. We premiered after the Cosby show in 1990, I guess it was. So Cosby was still on.

Must have been, I mean, it was a kind of funny overlap and I never got to interact with you or with any of the cast members. It didn't kind of work like that in those days. But that's just kind of a special connection that I had with that era, you know, of television. You were a very, very cute child. And that was a lot of that kind of appeal, you know. You brought life to an aspect of a show that was so beloved and so long running as well. but you kind of, you stayed in this television world and you have thrived. I mean, you are still actively working.

Has there been a time in your life when you were not working? I'll answer that question, but first I want to say thank you to you and the work that you did during that time. No, we did not interact. But a female heading a sitcom was in the cards for me to pay attention to and study. because that was very rare. Very rare. And you were young. And I studied that entire show from top to bottom just so you.

And I did too, not for my acting career, but just because I fuck. Can I curse? Because I just fucking loved Blossom. I was like, yes. Yes. I definitely, a lot of my outfits on the Cosby show were inspired. What are you? The hats.

It was classic 80s. The class floral. Early 90s. Yeah. And Felicia Rashad was actually, she was in our first episode, the character. The character of Blossom had a mother who left the family to pursue her own interests, which again, in 1989, when that script was written by Don Rio, people were like, a woman who wants to live her own life and leaves her children? What kind of beast is that? And we built this show around a girl who had, you know, essentially no mom raising her. And Blossom's fantasy mom was, you know, the mom from the Cosby show. And so actually, Felicia Rashad decorates an entire cake of fallopian tubes and ovaries in our very first episode because Blossom gets her period and it is Mrs. Cosby who explains it all. But yeah, tell me about sort of the time in your life when maybe you weren't working because you have a very

prolific career. So like you said, I'm 16 months old. I did the Cosby show. I was modeling. I did a couple commercials. Three years old. I started on the Cosby show. I ended that at six. Between six and seven, I had my first album and went on tour. Seven to 11. I was on hanging with Mr. Cooper for four years that aired during TGI Fridays. And every weekend I would go on tour with that as well. After that, I did Dr. Doolittle and I kept working, kept working, started on my Disney career albums and movies. And then 2011, I did a six-month stint on Broadway.

During that time, I had a little bit of a mental realization that from 1980-something until 2011, I had not taken a break that last, like, I could count up the days and it probably equaled like a year and a half of doing nothing. I've always been doing something. And so I took it upon myself to say, my industry, and I went to school. I had about a three-year break. And then, um, Wobie Goldberg and everyone at the view kind of asked me to come on and pulled me back in and here I am again. So I had like, a three-year stint, 2011, 12, 13, where I was able to decompress and kind of look at life, but it wasn't long enough. And I continue to find ways to kind of separate myself from the

industry. So at some point in my lifetime, I can say, you know, longer than three years of relaxation. While we had very, you know, kind of different experiences up until college age, You know, I literally walked off of a television set and onto a college campus. And, you know, I remember. Yeah, I did Blossom. I was two years out of high school when Blossom ended. And, you know, I was like really ready to have a different experience, you know, as I'm sure you can relate to and then some. I know it's like a weird question. Like, what was that like? Because like, for me, it was weird. It almost took three years to kind of like even feel whatever normal is supposed to feel. Like, I don't even know. no, and everybody's like, nobody's normal. Okay, but some of us are less normal than others when we've like been on your TV set, you know? So do you remember or like, do you have any sort of notion of that adjustment or, you know, where it fits into kind of your life now? I like to tell the story that my mom was, never watched any of my shows, didn't really like my character on the original That's the Raven. She thought I was acting crazy and ridiculous. And she wasn't truly proud of me

until I went to college and I got my AA. So the journey was I actually did college online for the three years. And I only went to the campus during summer school. It wasn't because I was afraid because I had gone to public school from elementary to high school during hiatus weeks. So I know what it was like to be integrated into normal population, you would say. however I did not take the leap to go to college campus because I was tired of being around people every day and I just wanted to be by myself and do the work and like, you know, drink and not wake up until 4 o'clock in the afternoon. Like I was having all of those teenage moments that people did in public by myself during those three years. And when I went to school, well, I went to the Academy of Art University based in San Francisco.

And I remember taking a fine arts class and a printmaking class. I thrived in printmaking class. But I felt the judgment of the kids during my fine arts class because, oh, she's famous. She thinks she can draw too because there's so many people in our industry who take full advantage of their celebrity name and claim themselves across so many boards when, you know, they draw a stick figure and it sells for $7 million. I'm like, I have a degree and I'm going to do this the way it's supposed to be done. And my teacher was like, why are you here? It's like because I'm trying to grow another aspect of me. I can't act for the rest of my life.

I have to have something to fall back on. So it was a very enlightening experience. I walked to school every day in the dirty streets of San Francisco. Nobody knew who I was. I, you know, kept it real low key. It was a great experience and I want to do it again. Actually, they just called me asking me, tell me if I got a refund for. from a couple years ago, and I'm like,

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My and Biotics Breakdown to help support the show. There's so much that I relate to about you and your story that is very particular, but there's also this kind of universal notion of, like, people's expectations of us. what they think we're capable of and also what people want to be true because it serves their own kind of narrative. I am curious about the recognizing thing because, you know, I have found that unadorned women, you know, the unadorned feminist is sort of the academic term, that's the best way for me not to get recognized is what I've noticed. And having more of a mellow and laid back

presence actually is something that's very comfortable for me. But it also has fed into a lot of like the way that I dress, like my slouchy posture, like trying to disappear and like weight is a protective element. Can you speak a little bit about sort of like the disappearing that you have gotten to do? Yeah, for sure. I got lucky in my career because the brand that was sold at such a young age was this uber feminine hair straight and eyebrows on fleek type world. And so when I would go out, the true me is more masculine presenting in a way and no makeup. And trust me, I'm a flashy. Like I wear flashy stuff. I got a flashy car. I'm all of that. But it's not in the Uber feminine sense. So when I was at the height of that, so raven,

I got away with a lot more than people actually knew because I'd be out in these streets like in the same restaurant as all of the tween stars that were getting pictured, but they didn't know it was me because my friends call me by one of my many other names, and I live in a different world. I understand what you're saying about the anonymity of it all because it's something I'll never have for the entirety of my entire life, and neither will you, no matter how much we slouch, and hide and gain weight, because everybody will judge it. But yes, there are tricks of the trade. And I think, you know, one thing that Miranda and I have actually been talking about over the course of the days is there is something different about the celebrity that has grown up in the industry. There's just something different.

And we don't talk about it enough because it's such a niche. It's such a community. It's a different lens we look through. It's a different world we live in in our minds. And yes, we conform to social normities and things of that nature. But at the end of the day, we have been filmed and recorded for the pleasure and entertainment of so many people. We know how to shape shift. We know how to manipulate situations.

We can read the room in a different way. You know, one thing Miranda says is like, you can't assume that I'm angry. I'm like, literally, I've had 200 scripts that show me 2,000 ways of anger. by every single writer out there. If I don't know how to read anger, I didn't do any of my job right. And then she's like, but I'm not. I'm like, dang, I miss one moment. But like, it is true.

There are some things that we have to learn as child actors and actors, but ones that have been in the industry since, you know, since time, not the early 2000s, but like even farther back where it's just a little bit different and it's hard to put into words where we don't sound, disrespectful. It's hard. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and I think also you've handled this with a lot of grace. And that's something I've really admired about you, really, for all of your adult life, especially when it sort of became something that people were,

you know, asking you to speak to is this notion of like, nobody wants to hear like, oh, poor little rich girl, you know? And because, and I don't, and I don't hear that in you and I don't hear it in myself, but I think other people sometimes do. It's like, you made all this money. What do you expect? Like your life is so easy. Like everything's amazing. And you know, you get to like wear all these pretty clothes and like, what do you have to complain about? And one of the reasons that Jonathan and I started this podcast is because like, guess what? Mental health doesn't care how much money you have and doesn't care anything about you because we're all kind of equal opportunity humans on this planet.

So, but I definitely, I do relate also to that notion of like, oh, she thinks she's so hot because. And all I wanted to do was just not be special. I used to get so excited when I was in chorus class and I would get chosen in the, you know, the alto section for a solo Monday through Friday and then literally on tour within sync on that weekend and not camera. because that's just my job and it's whatever. But I was more excited to wear that ugly, you know,

chorus outfit, black pants that didn't fit because I had too many of the pizza snacks at school. And I was like, I'm in chorus. And my dad is like, you just made a shit ton of money over it in sync. Like, what's wrong with you? When I was 16, I was on Blossom. Every Saturday, I would volunteer at the Hollywood. It was on Fountain and Coal.

It was the Hollywood Senior Citizen Center. And I would put on my little, like hairnet and my plastic apron and my gloves, there was not a happier human than me serving up a chicken breast and thigh and green beans to a bunch of people in their 80s and 90s who had no idea who I was. Like, because they were, they treated me like a real person, which meant sometimes they were mean to me. If they were in a bad mood, I heard it. Sometimes they were nice to me. I didn't have that notion of like, are they just being nice to me? Because, like, it was And that's what I did. I served up the chicken so happily. I love it. I love it. And I totally

understand it. And I think sometimes the people in this generation are missing that because they've been brainwashed to believe that it's so awesome to just be famous. Totally. They've been brainwashed. It's like, no, I'm going to have that. I'm like, you don't, you just got here, bro. You just got here. I need you to take like 10 years. And then you'll be, I told Miranda this the other day. I said, I had an idea with a friend of mine that I would go, ride public buses and see who would recognize me and who wouldn't and like actually live that life. That's why I love going to other countries. Yes. Because I can, oh my God, I remember when I was 18, I went to London and it was for just a fun vacation. And I went with a friend of mine and I woke up

early at like 6 a.m. And I got on the train, on the tube. And then I got on the city bus and I went to Stonehenge by myself. I was 18. I had already done concert. I was 18. I had already done concerts. where I needed a military bodyguard and people out five hours signing autographs at Walmart and things like that. But I was on the tube in London. Going to Stonehenge. Going to Stonehenge, like the happiest human in the world. And it's, it's an interesting want because everyone else wants what we have naturally. And it's like, it's not always greener. And trust me, do I want it every day? No, I really do love my Tesla. But at the same time, you know, going back and forth doesn't hurt. Right. I do want to ask one more thing that you mentioned about sort of, you know, having a more

masculine presence or getting to be yourself, whatever that, you know, kind of looks or feels like. Did you have a notion of kind of like gender identity, sexuality at that time? Or was it more just like this is what feels like me? Oh, no, I knew what was up. But I knew that the mask was necessary because there was a brand being built and I was told my whole life that nobody's going to buy that being called a dyke in concert by my own team because I wanted to wear a tie in a vest and doing all that and hiding it and one of my boyfriends being like when you when you're at work you're such a girl when you come home you're such a dude I was like I can't help it is just how I am but Miranda actually has been the only person in my life who has made me feel super

comfortable to be me on a morning, noon, and night basis. And I'm learning, as we all know, slow programming. Programming takes a while to deprogram, but I'm learning how to do that more and more when the camera is on. And that's hard to do because my parents used to call it razzle-dazzle. It's like, I don't care if you're sick, tired, or under the weather. As soon as they say action, nobody cares about your feelings, you better perform. So she's helping me kind of feel better in my skin. I love that. And I do want to, you know, kind of welcome Miranda more to this conversation because you you had knowledge of the industry and you have had a lot of different, you know, kind of identities in the industry and you've done a lot of really neat stuff. Even before the two of you met,

but how did you meet and connect? We met. Well, we like to joke that we were on the Warner Brothers lot at the same time because my father worked at Warner Brothers for almost as long as I've known him, but he was, I was three years old. My dad started working at Warner Brothers. And Raven was doing, hanging with Mr. Cooper. So we joke that we were both there. I was, I learned to drive on the back lot. I mean, that was like where I grew up to a certain extent, but she did too. So we're like, we totally passed each other then. If it was at the commissary or a soundstage, whatever. In actuality, we met at a karaoke night at a bar in West Hollywood. Raven was a host of this event. And I was there with some friends and she was there with some friends and we started talking. And I kind of felt a vibe very

quickly. I felt very comfortable with her, which is huge for me. Right. So feeling safe with somebody is not my norm and I have a lot of anxiety and I really felt this level of calm that was a big ping to me and then we just kind of had this natural conversation and as quickly as it started it ended because she was like okay I have to go I've had my two drinks I've done my job my job and now people are starting to kind of like crowd me and I was like wait wait wait I'm just getting warmed up and that was it but we obviously exchanged numbers and I could tell that she didn't who I was, which was the best part. With all due respect,

like what rock were you living under that you didn't know this living? I was just going to say, excuse me very much, I don't live under a rock. That was literally going to be my response. I actually did know who she was, but it wasn't interesting to me. And I also wasn't a fan. I think that's the biggest thing.

I knew who Raven was and I knew of that. So Raven, but I had never seen the show. I had never watched, hanging with Mr. Cooper, I've never seen to this day an episode of Cosby. But then I also like to say I was born in 1987 and it's like the things that I was watching, I was a little young. Yes, totally. You know, I was watching Barney and stuff. And your family comes from a theater background. So I'm sure that what was on television wasn't necessarily like that kind of show. What was,

what were your parents watching, Dina? I mean, I know as a young kid, we watch. watched my mom loved Sesame Street and Barney and I watched those shows consistently. And then I was telling Raven this actually because the other day she was like, how have you not seen a single episode of Cosby? And I was like, listen, I used to get the stomach flu a lot. And I used to have nightmares a lot. And my mom would take care of me and whatever that was like after I'd peed the bed or thrown up. She would put me in front of the TV in her room. And I would watch late night television, but it was like Nick at Night or I was watching Dream of Jeanne and I was watching the Munsters and I was watching Bewitched and as was I. That was kind of that and then it became Sabrina the Teenage Witch and Full House and Family Matters.

Those were like my real go-to shows. Step by step. Fuck yeah. Did you ever watch him Mr. Cooper? No, I never. It literally came on the same night as all those other ones. literally she's naming Friday. Literally, that's like the rundown of like everything

I know. This is what she, this is how she shamed me with that's a Raven too because I was like, I watched Lizzie McGuire. I watched even and she's like, the show that came before or the in the middle or she's like, I don't know. But anyhow, I didn't know who she was. I wasn't a fan, but I am now. Oh, I love you too. I am. I think my wife is extremely talented and very cool. And that's O Raven slash Raven's home. I mean, that's O Raven really is fantastic. It's awesome. And can I ask?

I'm serious. You're completely welcome. First of all, you two are adorable. You are completely welcome to not answer this. You know, I ask it because it's the kind of thing that might be helpful for people listening to hear. Had you been in a relationship, either of you, with a female person before? or was this a first for either or both of you?

I had been in, well, yes, yes. I had dated, oh gosh, I think maybe two or three. Let me count them real quick. I don't know, before you. But I will tell you this. So in high school, I was a very, like, awkward, late bloomer type of person. I didn't have my first high school boyfriend until my senior year. And he was my first everything.

And then I ended up dating a few other people after that. And then I met a girl. But Raven was the first person that I remember having this moment. We were actually in New York. She was on the view at the time. And I remember walking down the street with her. And we were just like shooting the shit, whatever. She had just finished my day of work.

And I had this. real like, I don't even know what to call it. AHA moment where I was like, wow, I might forever be in a lesbian relationship and have to really understand like what that might mean for myself because this is my person. This is my person. And I just really knew that. And it felt really okay. But yeah, she wasn't my first girl, but she's my last.

Just the homework cards are just being written as we speak. And what about you, Raven? That one on you. That's so good. I'm a little bit of a hoe. No, listen, I was. She's like 20. I'm number 31.

Oh, no. Raven likes to do this. This is the classic Raven move with us. Well, she'll be telling a story. And then she'll go, and then I was with my partner at the time. Sorry, babe, I love you so much. Like, she feels like she has to apologize. for the fact that she dated people before me, which I, you don't.

You want me to stop doing that? I do. Okay. Great. Look at that. We just had a therapeutic moment to get it right here. So you can't be mad at me when I say. And we just prevented a breakdown.

Thank you. Oh, buttoon-tun. Yeah. I did. Okay. So my first kiss was a girl. Then I started dating guys, but less than after girls. And then my longest heterosexual relationship, we thought we were going to

and get married, but my conversation to him was always, so I'm going to have a girlfriend when we get married, right? Because I can't just be with you for the rest of my life. And then we broke up, thank God. Dated a couple more guys and then also dated a couple of girls. And then there was a moment, which I'm not going to get into too much, but let's just say I threw up. And my body was not happy with what I was putting it through. And I was like, no more guys. Bye. And then I just stopped. and honored myself a little bit more. You were just like super gay. That's all it is,

babes. Is that an official title within the LGBT plus? Yes, exactly. It's an official. You just knew. You knew from such a young age too, which I think is hard.

We were a little bit different there as well. It's true. Yeah. Like I did notice young age and my friends would say, you're such a dude. And be like, now, come down.

I just really like Jay-Z and like when I grew up, but like, don't worry about it. And then I would be the, yeah, I did know what a very young age. Yeah. It is also possible, just again, speaking to sort of like the larger human experience, it is also possible to like Jay-Z want to be him when you grow up and also not be gay.

I have a 13 and a 16-year-old and Jonathan has a 14-year-old. So there's also like this culture that, you know, this generation is growing up in where like everything really, I don't mean to say like anything goes, but the notion of like uncoupling even our expectations about gender. You know, we are really like deconstructing gender and sexuality. I think on a, like, you know, at least for me as a mom, like on a day-to-day basis of like, you can be like this and still be this. Or you may feel like this or like that.

But, you know, part of it is like the labels can be so confining and in many cases not helpful. You know, and I would say the same thing about even like spectrum disorders. Like the terms help until they don't. And I think that's true of kind of like, you know, the terms gay and lesbian and also like feminine and masculine. I totally agree. And that's something that I have kind of intuitively always known, meaning so many people would ask me in my life, oh, okay, so you're gay now. And I'm like, I don't really know how to answer that because it never felt necessary.

for me. And I don't want to be dismissive to the work and the struggle that so many people have had to do within our community to stand proudly in their ability to say, I am gay and I have these rights and I love this person because it is, it's a true, it's been a true struggle and still is to this day. But for me as an individual, I never, even tomboy, right? So growing up, like, I enjoyed wearing a bigger fitting shirt, and I still kind of do. And, you know, not a lot of makeup, but then there were days when I wanted to be super feminine. And I always played with Barbie dolls. And I always had this really kind of imaginative world and liked having ribbons in my hair. And I had blonde, curly hair. So I, you know, kind of felt like Goldilocks from Goldilocks and the Three Bears was,

my girl. And so it's like I had these differences within myself, but my parents never tried to confine it or define it. And I think when I continued into my life and my adulthood, I just never have felt inclined to label myself in any way. And I don't know. I see both sides of it and how it is very important for some, but for me straight out saying, and that Raven will joke with me. And she's like, you haven't even come out. You're not even out. And I'm like, dude, I don't know what else. I mean, but I, but I grew,

we're married. I'm out, but, you know, but I grew up in a different type of community, right? So like our gender expression is totally different than your gender, than your sexual orientation. So let's separate the two immediately. And I think that goes to my sentence of, you know, your tomboy.

I want to be like JZ or whatever, whatever. Yeah. Can you explain that? Because I think some people still don't get it. Gender, Gender expression is the masculine, the femininity, the, you know, no gender expression whatsoever, the skirt with the, you know, blazer on top, the makeup with a full, like, it's just how you express yourself on the outside, but sexual orientation is who you want to be in love with

and have a sexual relationship with. That's totally different. But in my community, there are still the importance of labels, you know, stud, femme, masculine, mask, dike, twink, like there's so many derogatory words, but we've, you know, grabbed for our own. And I think that in some communities, we're starting to break down those stereotypes in those labels, but, you know, that was one of the things that I said a few years ago that, you know, ran rampant on the internet. Raven doesn't want to be labeled. She doesn't want to be labeled. You were ahead of your time, though. People didn't get it. And I didn't explain it very well. I'll definitely say that. I've learned how to talk better now that I'm married to Miranda. But that's what I meant because I liked girls and I liked guys at the time. And I dressed like a boy and I

dressed like a girl. And I had this thought and that thought. And I didn't have a label for myself. I got married. And I was like, yeah, I'm in a lesbian relationship. And somebody was like, oh, you're labeling yourself now. I say, yeah, for you, because you can't think outside the box. I'm cool with it. You know what I mean? Like, I'm over here expressing myself in all kinds of ways. But again, it's really important to separate sexual identity and gender expression because they are not the same and they don't really need to live in the same box. You know what I mean? Sexual orientation is totally different. And when you say your community, can you be a little more explicit? Before I answer that, I want to say I am not. I do not want to be a spokesperson for all of the black community. I don't consider myself that. I consider myself a part of the community, but I'm a part of a lot of different communities. My experience has been my experience, meaning I am on television since I was three.

I'm a female. I'm a black female. I'm light skin. And I'm married to a white woman. So my experience in the black community is everywhere. and everyone's experience would be different. That being said, there's my disclaimer. I think that there is a historic understanding within the black community

that one, interracial relationships are scary, dangerous, not the best, blah, blah, blah, blah. But that's being broken down nowadays, which is beautiful. Also, within a lesbian community, it's like, are you, where are you in your relationship? Are you the masculine one or you're the feminine one? Are you happy and two studs can't be together? Femns can always be together. And it's just like that's what it is because of our understanding of the heterosexual relationship and how we have to function in society. It's just the unconscious programming that we give ourselves. But I will say, I don't think that's just the black community. I think that that lives in a lot of communities. I know there's one that I can't speak. as an expert on, but they do not, and I'm also going to not name what it is, but I know this to be true, they do not agree with being gay, but if the male has a sex change, they will be accepted as a female. You've heard of that? So it's like, all right, the standards and practices of certain communities are necessary for the cisgendered religious-based people to feel comfortable.

That's all we're doing. We're just trying to make other people feel comfortable, but not this generation, this generation don't be about anybody. So I love it. I wanted to thank you also both of you for being so, you know, candid about this. I hate to make you feel like you're under a microscope or like you speak for all, any type of human being. But I think that there's, there's so much fear around talking about it. And I think it's really helpful to hear people's experience, even when it's not neat, you know. And I think that's also what it is. Like people want it really, they want it to be neat. They just want to be like, who do you have sex with and what genitalia goes with it? And I hope they match because that's what makes me feel the best, right?

Like that's, you know, anyway. Like we try and put so many labels on it, but then that separates us from the inner knowing, Raven, that you were speaking about. Like, you were being guided by a somatic understanding of what you wanted. And I don't want to call it a higher power, but like, it sounds like there was an intuition there. And sometimes being in the mind and trying to label it, what am I and putting it into a box or a category separates us from being able to follow what we instinctively know. So it sounds like, you know, those two things have to, you can't do both at the same time. Sometimes you just have to either intellectualize it and understand it and then go from there or more often it's like, oh, wait a second, we have a feeling. And by making space for that

and trying to not label it and just feel it and see where that guides us, it makes it clear. I want to agree with that. I feel like, you know, a lot of people are always say, you turned out so well. How come you didn't end up like all these other people? And when I say other people, I mean other child stars whose trajectory was not as positive. And for the longest time, I was like, I don't know. But as I grew up and I came out, I think my gay self really stayed in a box and protected the true me. So then when it was time for me to live, it was protected because like you said, my higher self, I do call it.

I call it my higher self, was protecting me knowing what I was needing as I got older if I survived. I say it saved me. I'm going through shadow work now. That is super difficult, but it's a lot easier to go through because I know that my brain split. Like I knew what I had to be in order to survive the world that I was living in. And I know who I am in order to be my best self and authentic self now. So I agree with you. And that's something that we talk about a lot actually because Raven and I love kind of self-analysing and therapy and having deep conversations.

And I've had a slew of mental health. I don't even know the word issues, problems. challenges. That's much nicer sounding. But really kind of being able, and despite the fact that we have different experiences, right, she grew up on a set, I didn't, blah, blah, blah. We're both riddled with depression. Yeah, no, but we both have very similar results from life experiences and these defense mechanisms. You know, I think that listening to what you just said, Raven, it's like my gay self was protective or I was protective of that inner self and that was really valuable for a long amount of time. But then there became a point in time where it no longer served and you had to come

out and do the next level. And for me, I've had so much of that where I'm like, wow, this defense mechanism, thank you. You were keeping me safe. You were helping me cope with the circumstance of my life at that time. You know, for me around the age of seven years old, my parents split up a lot more fear, anxiety, worry came into my, my ether, and food became my comfort and my best friend. But then there became a point where I was like, okay, yo, you're 16 years old. You cannot be housing pizzas on a Friday night because- Without me, without Ray then, because you need one other person to help you eat two pizzas. That's just the reality. But that comfort that I was seeking was no longer okay in that space. And it was now,

was, you know, I'd flipped it and it was becoming destructive. So I think everyone has those to an extent. And it doesn't matter kind of mind what you were saying too. It's like just the humanness that we all share in common. We will all find these similar themes in our lives in one way or another, regardless of being famous or not or being poor, rich or whatever. It doesn't, it doesn't, these things don't care. There's such a universality to it. Replace gayness with any that you need to change a defense mechanism that had previously protected us, and now we have to move on. And if we stay trapped in, not even trapped, if we stay stagnant, if we're not moving towards becoming something else and finding more about ourselves, then we're stuck.

And there's people that you can come into contact with that help you unlock, that unstuck it, that help you unlock it. I mean, I, before I met Miranda, I truly, truly went about my dating career, each person taught me something about myself that I did or did not like. And as soon as I broke up with that person, I don't want to say, I implemented. I implemented the changes that I wanted for myself, right? And I was like, okay, if we're supposed to be together, then we'll still be together. If not, these are the things I'm changing. Break up with them, change what I need to. And then that type of human never came back in my life. But there was one toxic trait that I was not aware of in the humans that I was picking. What was it? Narcissistic behavior. That I was picking because I didn't

understand that part about me. Right. So then I meet Miranda. And now I cry every night. Not from her. But also, wait, pause. Because you said that you had people come into your life. You'd break up and they never came back. But I came back. Well, that's what I'm, you did come back because she says that I'd never said this and it's possible because I, I have memory issues. But I remember distinctly breaking up with you and saying if you're supposed to be in my, I did say that. I did not. I know I did. It was actually, I remember that breakup like yesterday. Okay. Okay. I said that though. Yeah. She gave me a hug. No, me. because she just, this is on recording, right?

This is the thing. Oh, I'm watching the whole thing. Best show on television. What's happening right here? We'll start. You have to start with a hug. No, I don't remember it. I'll remember it was saying this.

Go ahead and you tell us to her. No, I'll just tell this part. She breaks up with me. We stand up. I'm getting ready to leave. And she gives me this huge hug. And she holds me. And I'm like, what's happening?

And then she pushes me back. She has both her hands on my shoulders. And she looks me in the eye. And she says, you deserve someone who wants to hug. you like that every day. That's not what I'm talking about. I know. And then you said, and I was like, oh my God, that's terrible.

Then I said, if we're supposed to be together and back in each other's lives, we will be. You have to let something you love go. And if it's supposed to be there, it'll come back. And I truly believe it. And then she went and made tacos. And I left and walked the streets of New York City crying hysterically. And tacos were like a mess of a, you know. human and I ended up, I mean, if you want the real story.

No, nobody wants the wrong story. So here's what happened. She came back and we're both back. The real story. Trust me. I don't want to hear it. We met in L.A. at the karaoke night mentioned earlier. Raven and I saw each other two more times in L.A.

And then she was like, hey, so I'm moving to New York in about a week because I'm going to be hosting the view. And she- You don't want to tell me about the sick-ass party I threw? It wasn't that sick. Anyhow, she then says, if I buy you a ticket, if I buy you a ticket, will you come? And I was like, no, I'm not coming. Red flag. She's trying to buy you a ticket.

You just met her. That's a red flag. Never go to a secondary location. Don't go to a secondary location. I know you guys. You're right. I should have said, I should have stuck to my guns. But I said no.

And at this point, she had packed up her house in L.A. With a sick-ass party that everyone still talks about to today. It wasn't that sick. and she was staying at my place. So the last four days that she was staying in Los Angeles and this is the second week of my knowing her, she lived with me. Also red flag.

That's a lesbian thing. It's a lesbian thing. It's a lesbian thing. And she could have stayed somewhere else. She just wanted to stay with me. Obviously. Anyhow, I go to New York with her. You got to get your claws in there.

Yeah, you know what I mean? She goes to New York. I fly out like a week and a half later and we go on a camping trip. and I was in my head. She bought me a one-way ticket. And I figured, you know, I have a life in Los Angeles. I have an apartment.

I pay rent. I have mail. But I stayed-mail. Mail. I really remember having anxiety about my mailbox. I was like, the mail. It's not about the mailbox, honey. It's not about the mailbox.

What about that other box? Come here. But anyhow, we, I ended up staying. I ended up staying in New York for basically the month of September, came back a little bit in October and then flew back. to New York end of October and I stayed until the breakup, which is where we left off. Until the breakup. So when was the breakup? Six years later, five minutes later. No, it was eight months later. It was eight months later in 2017. And we were living at exactly 4.30 p.m.

And we were living in the same. We were, Raven had an apartment in New York. I moved into that apartment. But at the time, I had also had to let go of my apartment in L.A. And there was a studio that became available in the same building. So I rented that studio, which had become basically a storage unit. And she's to sleep in the tub. Oh, my God. So anyway, she breaks up with me. And I was like, cool. Now I have to move from the sixth floor into the fourth floor studio. From the sixth floor to the fourth floor in the same building. Yeah, I was moving on down. Moving on down. And you had a question in the same building. You get a question? I do have a question. Again, this, the writer in me wants to set a little bit of additional context. Okay. So we're going to be a little circuitous, but there's a breakup.

You've moved down two floors. You're in the same building. I have my hands like, I imagine the apartments are right above each other just so the vibe is there, but that's irrelevant. The movie version, they're right above each other. What precipitated the breakup in the relationship? And I have a menu of choices. None of them could be right. All of a sudden. sudden it got real. You're like, holy shit, it's been eight months. Like, this is, you know, I know, I'm no longer checking my mail in LA. Miranda's finally gotten comfortable. Now Raven is like, holy shit, I got this girl here. Now what do I do with her? Like, what, what's happening in the dynamic of the relationship that sparks the breakup? What's happening is the same thing that's

happening in our relationship now. It's real. There's real conversations happening. There's conversations of future and how we want to be and what we want our lives to be. And I wasn't ready for it. But I'm ready now, which is why we are together, which is why the conversations are stronger now because I ran like a little coward and now I'm back with my tail between my legs, hoping that she forgives me for that moment. But it's... I have.

And honestly, to be fair, I kind of knew, too, that that wasn't going to be our end, even though I was very sad and very, very heartbroken and walking. the streets of New York crying like a lost little puppy, but nobody cared in New York, right? The people just like, move out of the way, you crazy. But I knew that there would be something that brought us back together. And our therapist told us that it's very bad to swander in the past and not bring it up. So for the safety of our relationship, can we talk about the now? Because I have a lot of things to answer for that time that I don't want to talk about right now. Hold just one second. You'll see where I'm going. Okay. This is important because

a lot of relationships have this, like they talk about the chase, but I don't think it is that. I actually think it's when two people are coming together, it does get real. Like, we begin to realize that, oh, my gosh, this is real. And the comfort of each individual is kind of like moving. And as you sort of get together, there's a freak out that happens. Everyone, like every couple, everyone I hear, it's very rare that both people are like totally calm and centered, come together. It gets super real.

and no one has that catastrophic freak out. And what happens is that you withdraw. Because in order to be in a relationship with someone, you have to expand and start to merge. And we're talking sort of like in the energetic space and emotional state. And you're no longer an individual and you give up some of your freedom. And you have to have sex with someone that you actually like instead of someone you just are lusting after. It's very exhausting.

Very different. Very different. Very different. Every time we're talking to people who, especially who, are known people. We say it's not, you know, everything that they go through is mirrored in other, other people that are not famous. It's not about the fact that they're famous. We all have protective mechanisms. And earlier in this conversation, Raven has a look in her eye that scans when, when people are talking, that's like looking for bullshit. And there's a

parallel in, you know, in the early part of this conversation, the way Raven was telling a story, a lot of parallels in Mime's experience. And, you know, I've been able to spend quite a bit of time with Mime over the last two and a half years and getting to know her. She has that same look. What, the I don't trust anyone and that's never going to change look? Exactly. It's a club. You're welcome.

And a lot of people have it. But I think it's heightened being in the industry because everyone is, you're a product in the industry. You've got to turn the camera on. You have to perform. There's no sick days. No one cares about what your internal world is. And when no one cares about what your internal world is, and you have a lot of time that you spend where no one cares about what your internal world is,

it's very hard to then transfer into a relationship with the cameras off and trust that people are going to care about what your internal world is. Also, I'm the boss everywhere, meaning I also have a life of people just like lying to me. all the time that I'm amazing when I'm not. People don't tell me if I hurt their feelings, even if I want to know. Like, you can't even get a straight answer from people sometimes. Like, even if you're like, oh, did I just hurt your fit? No, it's fine. Like, you'd have no idea. So what's also a challenge, and like I was, you know, I was with someone for 15 years. I dated. I was married. We had kids. Like, it's very hard to go from also being like the boss person or not even the boss person,

but like the person that everyone's tending to, but then other people have needs too. And it's like, but I'm not done having my needs because those were my work needs. Now I have personal needs. Who's going to tell? It makes me feel like I was like this like, just bottomless pit of need.

Like is there room for me to give to anyone else? Because I still need taking care of. It's just got real personal, real fast. Maya, I have a question though. Were you able to identify what your personal needs were and communicate them to

no no no how could I I was always told when I was hungry when I was angry when I was sad when I was happy it was like I mean and also I was just like my parents are first generation Americans and I was raised very like I'll tell you when you're cold put a jacket on but I'm not cold but yes you are so like also that's just the way a lot of us were raised in the you know

70s and 80s so like add that to them like the industry and also like you know my my parents did the best that they could. My mom actually protected me a ton, like a lot more than a lot of kids were protected. But still, it's like my entire consciousness was built around how do I make you happy? How do we know that I did my job well? If they're happy, you're safe. That's it. And you can go about your business and go cry in the bathroom somewhere else. And that doesn't make for necessarily easy, productive, healthy relationships because also, you know, that's why drugs and alcohol and food and sex and all those things, like they numb it. I'm not trying to call either of you

out by any stretch of the imagination, but circling back to like that freak out, it's really hard to settle in and to trust. It's really much, you know, the programming is to pull back and to say, I can only figure out my needs alone instead of in relation. So, you know, that's sort of where I was going full circle in terms of, you know, you moving down to that second, to the fourth floor is that makes, you know, a lot of sense. And I almost, you know, just saying it more as like, of course, of course when it gets real, anyone with the programming that you have to figure out your needs alone is going to try to figure out their needs alone. Yeah. Jonathan, you hit a lot of different nail heads, bro. Congrats. I wanted to ask, like, I got into therapy basically as soon as I,

it was humanly possible. I'm curious, kind of like what works best for, you know, both of you together or separately? What kind of work is sort of nurturing you now? I feel like I've been in therapy forever. And I mean, seriously, I think like at seven years old, my mom was like here therapy because she was getting a divorce and I started making like clay models of my feelings. but I think recently what has been helpful honestly is more of the somatic therapy approach because I am highly aware of my shit and I can very easily say, well, this happened and it triggered this and this was the trickle effect and then this was the result and now that's why I feel X, Y, and Z about myself or this environment or the situation or this person.

but the awareness seems to have less impact on the action or the feelings and especially those that end up stuck in my body. So figuring out how to feel a sensation and react to it appropriately or let it go has been really big for me. And there's so many different ways to get there. I do have a somatic therapist and I actually haven't seen her in a little bit of time. a lot of the work that she would do with me was she had some she had a lot of visual representations and she had something called a pillow that had pillars of identifications of different feelings and models as how to express yourself release energies from your body and it's really interesting it's a different it's a different style than I'm used to than just like kind of standard

cog be or talk therapy um but i also have found that things like acupuncture and meditation to an extent I am not the best meditator, but affirmations and just being super conscious in that world and feeling into my body and not attaching meaning to it more so than it needs to be, not assuming every feeling is fact, has been big and has been significant. And I mean, we're in therapy together and that's more standard talk therapy. Tochelologist. Oh, an osteopath?

Yeah, we go to an osteopath now. Oh. She calls herself a manual therapist. And that's been something too. That's been really cool. And we have kind of our slew, I mean, this is so L.A., but like our slew of, you know, healers and body workers and energy people,

but it makes a difference. I mean, it does. What is the shadow work, Raven? Can you tell us a little bit about that? I've read about it, but I don't remember how it works or what the theory is. I will. I'm starting and learning. So I have no idea what I'm doing. So let me just start from the top of mind, though, because at 18, I told my family that I wanted to go to therapy and they were like, what therapist in certain communities are looked down upon? You're telling people your secrets. They're going to tell your business started there, got pretty much the understanding that I have PTSD and I don't have bipolar

syndrome, but I have like depression that is in that world. So took some medicines for that. And I took a medicine once and I found myself underneath the table while filming and could not get up and kind of got off of that and not really happy with it. Then I stopped going to therapy and started doing energy work. and meditations and Nietzsche and Buddhism for a few years until they started asking me for money. And I'm like, wait a minute, by just going through the motions on there, realizing my own personal power and energy grids that I can create for myself to release my mind and body from the shackles of pain and allow my higher self to run, Wayne Dyer, and all of those self-help books,

really put me on a path of personal mental work. However, not really touching my anger at all and not realizing I have anger because it was passive and you're not supposed to be angry when you're little kid. I don't know what that emotion. I don't know about that emotion. I've actually been working on this lately. And my therapist was like, name some situations that make you angry. And I'm like, um, and I'm like, I always have a different word for it.

It's like, well, I'm disappointed. Or like, or like, I know race. I'm really good with rage, but like I've also had to curb that. But it was like she was speaking a different language, and it was like my brain was working so hard to try and figure out, like, what is anger? And she was like, can you imagine it being productive? And I was like, no. And she's like, oh, but just like sometimes you cry and you feel better, I'm like, no.

Like when people are angry, things break and people get hurt, and everybody cries and leaves. Exactly. Why would I be angry? She's... Why would I be angry? It ruins people's lives. That doesn't make sense. Well, and how could it be productive?

Like, what, you feel good after being angry? You don't feel good after being angry because after I'm angry... It just doesn't happen. Like, where have you been on my life? I'm just right here suffering. With me. No, I don't know. I don't know what that one is anger.

I don't know what that is. I've had therapists be like, you because like some people have tried to like make me like get it out where you like do like a role play with like a person and I was like no that made me just start crying I was like I don't and they're like oh well it can be really helpful just like get it out I'm like I don't think that's how it that's not where it's gonna go I don't know but that's not she was like you need to get rid of your anger you need to go scream at the top of a mountain and she went she took me to like a neighborhood and I was like this no but you know can I tell you what's really interesting about this conversation

Can I listen though? I'm learning. I know you're totally learning, but Raven is somebody who will look at me and tell me to express my anger. And she'll be like, get angry, get angry with me. Tell me why you're angry. And I can't. And I fear becoming angry so much.

And I also, similar to the conversation earlier and what I kind of say is like I'm a people pleaser, but the fear of making anyone feel unhappy or not showing up with, oh, everything's fine, or you were talking about your needs and, you know, just being like, oh, I don't really know. I don't have any or whatever. I have such a tendency to do that because I'm so afraid of disrupting anything with saying, actually, wait, this didn't work for me, or I don't really want to go there today, or I'd rather do. And so it's like, it coexist. Sure.

Yeah, but there's, but I, we win, Miranda. It's a little different. It's a little different. It's a little different. Because I say that to you, what are you angry with me? What are you angry at me for or tell me what you don't like about me, right? I can handle people angry. Why can you handle it?

Say it. Right. Wait, wait, wait. Why can I handle it? Because I've been handling in my whole life. There you go. So I can, I will take everyone's upset over mine because I'm, because my goal is to fix it because then we move on, right? And then I learned I learned that we're not supposed to fix it.

People are supposed to go through their own emotions and shit. Whatever, then I don't want to hear about it. I'm going to live alone and I'm going to also marry God because I don't want to be with another human. If you have a problem, don't tell me. And I won't try to fix it for you because I'm outside looking in and this is your issue. What's my issue? Don't worry. I'll fix it myself because I'm not.

I don't need you to do for me. But what that really is is don't look at me. That's, I mean, for me, that's what it is. just like, no, because it's true. Like, I can spend all my time thinking about the him in the room, the her in the room. Like, I will, I'll take on the government also of this country, right? Like, I'll spend my time there because what's hardest is saying like, oh, outch, right? I hurt.

Like, I have, you know, who's going to hold me? And when, when I am angry, like, the smallest thing set me off. And my entire body is just. vibrating at such a speed to where my hand, I'm like, I'm Harry Potter. I have like magic fingertips of pain coming out to the point where, let me say what I do, right? And Tage is on, our publicist is on Miranda's here. Miranda's getting in the industry. She loves glam. She's like, I can't try, I can't wait to try out the new glam person. And in my head, and I've never said this babe, so in my head, I'm like, honey, you'll learn to just do it yourself because why be angry

at anybody else when they mess up when you can just learn to do it yourself? And you don't even have to have that irritation. Like I have such irritation with people. Well, I was just going to say what you said is like, I mean, this is, my mom said that when I was little, I needed my back. I wanted my back rubbed a lot. I wanted comfort, right? And she would get so exhausted of like rubbing my back, running my back. And I would say to her, I'll rub my own back, like when she would leave. And, you know, and it was a cute story that my mom always told of like, she's so independent. But what it was, was like, if it's not how I want, I'm going to take care of it. I'm just, and that's what it's going to be.

And then I can't be upset. I don't have to be, like, I don't have to be disappointed because I took care of it. And no one's ever going to take, and I know, and I'm learning at this sentence, this is an old thought process, I'm working on it, but no one's ever going to take care of it as well as I will. True story. And people, they ask so much of you. And they're, and I give.

them 100,000 percent, which is why I love the Japanese culture. In their culture and in their work culture, if they're building a cup, the person who melts the plastic melts it to 120 percent so that the next person can do their job to 120 percent and next person does their job. And then by the end of the product, it's gorgeous. Here, in this country, we do 10 percent. And hopefully the next person does 80. So by the time I get it, I'm fixing. the problem and it's wasting my time and energy. Let me do it from the beginning. I'll make it myself. Jonathan is sometimes a, I don't want to say a hider of emotions. He's a protector of emotions. And you know what? That's his freaking prerogative. He's Canadian. They're really, really sweet.

But it really bothers me because also you said something that I think is so interesting. I pick up on things that other people don't. And I wish people would just trust me. Like, I know when he's upset and it makes me so frustrated. because he'll just like, and also, forgive me, it sometimes is a dude thing. It's the like, I'm fine. And then they like pout around and huff and puff for like two hours. It's like, okay, but why don't you just like say what's going on? But there's this notion like you, like you had said, it's like I've read so many scripts.

I know how to communicate so many different emotions, so many different ways. You think I can't read your face? Oh, you think I can't read your face, Jonathan. That's the problem. the flip side of that is when I'm truly not upset, but she's expecting me because the script version in her head is like, oh, he should be mad about this. And she's like, you're mad, right?

And I'm like, no, really, I'm not. I kind of have to eat or I'm like thinking about something else. Like, I'm not thinking about you at all. Everyone's thinking about me all the time. We're talking about. We are the world. Narcissists. Anyway, I have, see, I have, I have the issue of,

of I know that when I'm in my mood, I shut down. I had a partner once come to me. And she goes, you ruined my entire three days. And I'm like, how did I ruin your entire three days? I didn't even talk to you. She goes. Yeah, her energy is so strong. Your energy is so strong when you are in a mood that no one can function around you.

That's him. He will suck the joy right out of her room. It has nothing to do with you. Just like let me take care of my business and I'll be back when I'm available. And that's my sentence. Before we let you go, I do want, I mean, I could just talk to you forever about all this stuff. Same here. Can we do this again? This is super fun.

But I do want to give you, I do want to kind of like give you the space also to talk a little bit about the YouTube channel that you have, which is so cool. It's called 8 p.m. The P and the M being your last names, correct? It took me a second. I was like, what happens at 8 p.m.? Like a dodo? And then I kept reading. It's the new happy hour. It's actually like getting into bedtime.

But you have some really cool content and you talk to really fun people. And the two of you are obviously so much fun together. And I just love kind of this dynamic. So tell us a little bit more about what happens on 8 p.m. Well, like you said, we have some videos are us in the kitchen. Some are us talking to cool people. Some of us are driving in our car. So we have a bit of a vlog, lifestyle.

Tea time is one of our series where we sit down with a specific topic and just kind of talk about it over a cup of tea. But ultimately, it's meant to just be a fun, feel good, real space where people can come and hang out and watch a couple be a couple. I love that. We heard there's a podcast in the works, which is a title that I think is amazing. I have started a podcast. It's called The Things We Carry. I am a birth dula. And that is kind of what sparked the idea because a lot of people are so interested. I also love just talking about mental health and the things people do and the shit we think about. And that's what we carry. And the things that we carry become defining principles of our lives. So let's talk about it. But yeah. It has really been a pleasure. you know, Raven, I've seen you, obviously, your whole life. And I know that, you know, you have an existence that is so unique. And I know that it's hard to feel seen. And I would imagine it still is, but it is really, really such a pleasure to get to talk to you and let you just, I don't know,

like, you just seem very comfortable in your skin. And I hope that that is the case. And it's been really a pleasure to get to know both of you. Myam, I want to say that, you know, I'm sure you know a lot of people in our community and everyone has their own experience, but it is really, really something special to sit with a female like you who understands the situations that I've been through because being a leader of your own show and celebrity and fame at a young age, especially during that time period as well till now, like we said at the beginning, something's a little different and it's good to hear because a lot of the things that you said about how you are with anger and work, Miranda and I talk about on an everyday basis. And I have to jump in, sorry to interrupt you, but I want to say this about the both of you, which is also very true. You both are extremely smart. And I think that that can work for and against you in a lot of ways. It mostly works against us. I know. And I get it because although, again, I didn't grow up the same way

you two did, I have similarities. And that level of intelligence and awareness and self-analization can become overwhelming at times and can become also extremely isolated. And that's a blessing and a curse in and of itself. But you both are just very smart. You're smart too, Jonathan. Okay, you are. It feels very kindred. And I appreciate you and applaud you. And thank you for telling me your truths in that way. And Jonathan, thank you for saying things as well that I have anything. and been able to put in towards myself because of the work that I've been doing. So this is beyond the podcast. But honestly, this conversation was needed in my life right now for both of us to hear.

And I appreciate you both. And thank you. Thank you so, so, so much. Thank you. I like when I meet people who are so much like me. I mean, the parallels are fairly uncanny. I mean, I assumed, I mean, it's so much more for her. Not that it's a competition, but like, like she said, she doesn't know any other existence, you know.

She's had to build so much up to be such a strong, confident person. It seems like this relationship is just really beautiful and strong. And I can't even imagine. I mean, working all week and then touring all weekend. Unbelievable. Really unbelievable. And also she was so loved for how cute she was. So it's like the pressure then of like, can you have an awkward phase?

You know, like what, like you're going to grow up. You have no idea what you're going to look like when you're 16 at the time that you're three, you know. What's relatable, though, because we always say it's not about the celebrity. The celebrity just heightens this performative people pleasing, shoving your feelings inside requirement, this scanning that happens, the what's out in the environment, who's going to be upset, how do I, contort myself to avoid that emotion or that reaction. And that hypervigilance, as we talked about in the Dustin Hoffman episode, and we've spoken about with Jeanette McCurdy, she had a huge, I think every child who has grown up with significant time on sets has that similar experience,

but it doesn't matter if you've grown up on set or not. If you had a hypercritical parent, if you grew up in a stressful environment where your parents were fighting a lot, it might not have had anything to do with you, but you may have looked externally to try to control or try to analyze, is any of your behavior going to contribute to the volatility in the household? It's just such a relatable condition that breeds many of the same restrictive coping mechanisms that make people want to disappear or not have needs or constantly looking to evaluate how they're going to come across or what they can do in order to control or impact the environment outside of themselves. Well, and I think like, you know, as humans, we're constantly juggling, you know, as we talked

about expectations and, and yes, control and, you know, especially, you know, for any child, we're at the mercy of these people who are taking care of us. So we kind of have to go along with all the things that they do, right? Whether it's like, oh, we take pictures and we put you on television, or we go to the zoo or like, whatever it is. We are all like, that's the human experience. of being a dependent child. And, you know, as I think you and I have highlighted over and over, what happens when you're a child? It stays with you.

You know, even if it's in the things that you want to do different or that you want to experience different. Like, welcome to being human people. That's all I have to say about it. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. It's my ambiotics breakdown. She's going to break it down for you.

She's got a neuroscience PhD. Or two One, fix you And now she's going to Break down I'm break it down Now.