Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Re-Air: Army Psychic Uses Remote Viewing to Hunt Crime! | Angela Ford

Episode Date: July 10, 2026

This summer we’re returning to an episode from June 2025 that’s very close to our hearts! Renowned U.S. Army remote viewer and psychic spy, Angela Ford, shared her incredible journey from childhood out-of-body experiences and prophetic dreams to becoming a top operative in Project Stargate, the government’s classified psychic espionage program run by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA).In this mind-opening conversation of Mayim Bialik’s Breakdown, Angela Ford shares how she used automatic writing, extrasensory perception (ESP), and spirit guide communication to track high-value targets. She states that psychic intelligence can be just as powerful as AI in national defense. She recounts encounters with dark entities, explains how she performs psychic readings on babies and animals, and even reveals a childhood UFO sighting that changed her life.Angela also offers a live aura reading for Mayim and Jonathan, and breaks down how meditation and training your subconscious mind can unlock your own hidden psychic gifts. Whether you’re curious about remote viewing, psychic warfare, or the role of consciousness studies in defense strategy, this episode will challenge everything you thought you knew.Go to https://www.helixsleep.com/breakdown for 20% off sitewide.Go to https://tidd.ly/4uVltMe and use the code MAYIM50 to get $50 off your Elastique order.Make your summer wardrobe feel easier. Go to https://www.quince.com/breakdown for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.Follow us on Substack for Exclusive Bonus Content: ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://bialikbreakdown.substack.com/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠BialikBreakdown.com⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠YouTube.com/mayimbialik⁠⁠⁠See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hi, I'm Miami-Aelik. And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. We hope you're having a wonderful summer. Today we are revisiting an episode from last year's summer that's very close to our hearts. U.S. Army remote viewer and psychic spy Angela Ford. This is an unbelievable story. She shares her journey from out-of-body experiences she had as a child and prophetic dreams to becoming a top operative in Project Stargate, which is the government. classified psychic espionage program that was run by the defense intelligence agency. She worked actually for the Army for 20 years, and many of those years, she worked as a psychic. Angela shares how she used automatic writing, extra sensory perception, and spirit guides to communicate and track high-value targets. She reveals that psychic intelligence can be just as powerful as AI in national defense and recounts encounters with dark and and explains how she performed psychic readings on babies and animals even reveals a childhood UFO sighting that changed her life.

She also very effortlessly does a live aura reading and talks about how meditation and training your subconscious mind can help you unlock your own hidden psychic gifts, which she said we all have. If you have psychic gifts or are curious about developing some, check us out on substack. Mind B Alex breakdown on substack. And now we hope you enjoy taking a look back at our episode with Angela Ford. Break it down. Miami-B-Alex Breakdown is supported by Helix Sleep.

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You can choose to elevate your mattress with premium cooling options. options. The Helix lineup offers 20 plus unique mattresses to choose from any variety of mattress topers. Helix has a sleep solution for just about everyone. Go to Helixleep.com slash breakdown for 20% off sitewide, 25% off luxe mattresses and 30% off elite mattresses. That's Helixleep.com slash breakdown for 20% off sitewide, 25% off lux mattresses and 30% off elite mattresses. Hillicksleep.com slash breakdown. It's nice to be here. I thank you for the opportunity. It's very rare that Valerie sends research on the person we're going to speak to. And my response is, what is happening here?

Because you have an unbelievable story. Your life has had an unbelievable trajectory, and it's taken you to some pretty incredible places that, honestly, will make most people challenge what they believe about what is true and what the human experience is. So thank you for being here to fill us in on all that. Thank you. We're going to start with, I want to start really, really basic. When did you first know that you had abilities that were outside of the realm of what other people were experiencing?

I was very young. I was very young. It was before I was in school, but I used to have a lot of out-of-body experiences. where as a child, I mean, I could leave my body and I could fly around. Now, don't ask me how I knew this, but I knew that you just don't talk about it. At some level, you know, but I remember doing a lot of out-of-body experience, I guess experiences. Now, whenever I got to be around five or six years old, I used to have a lot of dreams. And actually, I think they were perfect.

I think they were of the future because I would wake up and I would tell my mother that I would have these dreams. And she would listen to me. And sometimes she would write them down. And she took them very serious. So she wasn't telling me a lot of times when young people have psychic experiences or psychic dreams, they're told like, oh, don't talk like that or be quiet. Or like, you know, they say, hey, I saw a grandma yesterday and she die. You know, they're told to be quiet. So my mother never, she just listened.

So I think that that kind of, so that all happened at a very, very early age. Now, I know, so as I got older and as you go in school and as you become more social and as you learn things, I guess the abilities weren't there so much. but I always was very curious. I was always very curious. And I would go to Fortune Tellers, or I would read, I can remember, I read a book when I was a senior in high school, and it was about a man who did, he would fly in his airplane. He was doing Arctic exploration.

And he always felt that if he wrecked the plane or if he lost all communications, he would do ESP tests with a person on the ground, so that if something were to happen to him, he could send ESP messages. Well, he never got into any trouble, but they did do the ESP experiences. So he would come back from his flights, and then he would talk about, the guy would say, well, I felt like you were here at this point and this is what you were going through or this is what you, so they could collaborate to see if it was working. Well, I had read this book, and years later, when I started to work for the government,

government, one of my bosses or one of my, he was one of the guys that, one of the gentlemen that knew the pilot. He knew the explorer and knew the people that were conducting the experiment. So I thought that was interesting that I had read about this man when I was a senior in high school. And then years later, I come to know as one of the people in on that. So I think I always had the interest. I always had the interest. Now, I want you to explain to us because a lot of kids, kids think a lot of fun things. A lot of kids have an active imagination, you know, especially people who, who end up being artists or, you know, some sort of clairvoyant, you know,

sometimes they have a very active imagination. Can you describe what it means that you had out-of-body experiences? Do you mean you had dissociative episodes or were you literally not in your body? No, I could see myself leaving my body. I could, I left my body and I would look down and I would be laying on the bed, and then I would just fly. And I could walk through doors. I could go through windows, and I would just go fly. Where would you go? I would go outside. I'd like to be up in the trees. One time I went to the sun. I felt like I went to the sun. One time I felt like I could see more like beings that maybe don't live on earth, a lot of communication that way. One time I felt that I was a place where there was a lot of chatter, chatter, chatter.

So, and then one time I felt like I was with just a beautiful woman who just admitted love. I'm going to ask a very delicate question, and I'm asking it with the utmost respect. Did you ever wonder if maybe like you were not well? Or were you always clear that this was a... I was very clear. I had a lot of clarity. And at some level, I knew at a very young age not to talk about it. You've talked about your mother having some sort of abilities.

When did you learn about that? And do you think that's part of why you have this access? Oh, sure. Now, what happened with my mother was my mother was always interested in the subject. And I can remember as a child growing up, she had a lot of Edgar Casey material. She had a lot of Gene Dixon. So my mother bought an encyclopedia of ESP, 20 books all on ESP. I went home to see my brothers that encyclopedia is still in that bookcase.

So you can pick up that book and it talks about, you know, peep dying and life on the other side. You can pick it up and read about channeling. But I guess so anyway, my mother always had the interest. And actually, as a teenager, it was kind of embarrassing because she would talk about reincarnation and she'd like to listen to country, Western music. So as a teenager, I mean, it's not cool. So she kind of embarrassed me a little bit. However, I was born and raised in Pennsylvania.

I have a political science degree. And I came down to Washington, D.C. to start working for the FBI. Now, I was waiting for my clearance. They do a clearance on you to make sure that, you know, I don't have a criminal record. But as I was waiting for my clearance so I could come work for the FBI, there was a night class at the university. It was an ESP class. And there was a chemistry professor that was very psychic.

And he would teach these ESP classes at night. It was just like night classes, you know, where you're, you pay $35 and you go for six weeks. Well, I attended this guy's class, but I could only stay for one or two weeks because I got a, I received a nighttime job. So I had to quit so I could make the money so I could come down to Washington. So I quit. Well, a few years later as I, well, actually quite a few years later, my mother called me up one. It was a September. It was at the end of summer. I was living in Virginia. And my mother said, you know, I just. What can I do? I want to take a class. I want to do something. And her and her friends always would do something. So I said, you should take that ESP class by Dr. Bortus. And she said, I think I will. So she did. Well, what we've come to find out was that my mother was very psychic. She could take objects like a ring or a watch. It's called psychometry. And she could take things. And she could actually read a person like who owned the ring and what they were like. somebody brought her something and she could tell the person's husband was in World War II. So she had this ability. Well, so at that time, I was 29 or 30 years old and my father had passed. And I was having a very difficult time with my father's death.

So my mother sent me this, she sent me a book, and it was called A World Beyond by Ruth Montgomery. And she said, read this book. You will understand your father's death. You'll come to understanding your father's death. Well, in it, Ruth Montgomery channels. She talked about life on the other side. She talked about reincarnation.

And I resonated with that book. It was something that I felt healed my heart, helped heal me from my father's death. And so after that, I started to channel. I said, well, you know, I'm going to try this channeling, what she did. So I started to channel and I was working for Army intelligence at the time. And they had a program where they were bringing in people that they felt had these abilities to, you know, you could go work as a psychic for this for Army intelligence. And that's a whole other story. Yeah, Angela, you're acting like this is a normal thing that you can work as a psychic for Army intelligence.

Mindy Alex breakdown is supported by IANDS. Are you fascinated by near-death experiences and related phenomena? Do you wonder what they might actually reveal about consciousness, life, and death? Well, this August, nearly 1,000 people are expected to gather in Bellevue, Washington, for the International Association for Near Death Studies' annual conference. The conference features an all-star lineup of speakers, including Ebb and Alexander M.D., and author Anita Mourgiani. Attendees will explore NDE through research, personal experience, mental health, and the expanding study of consciousness.

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routine. We're so excited to take a break from our regular hustle and bustle, but sometimes that means we take a break from good habits too, except for the 30 seconds it takes to mix AG1. One scoop plus eight ounces of water every morning, AG1. AG1's a healthy drink with multivitamin, pre-and-probiotics, superfoods and antioxidants. One scoop, eight ounces of water. Agi-1 helps to maintain energy, support gut health and support immune health. It's clinically shown to support gut health and fill in common nutrient gaps. Summer may be your license to chill, but with all the late nights, long weekends, and spontaneous plans, AG1 helps you keep one thing consistent. High-quality nutritional support every single day, no matter where you start your morning.

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That's drinkag1.com slash breakdown. Miami-B Alex Breakdown is supported by Incogni. Over the past year, data breaches increased by more than 200%. Your name, past addresses, phone numbers, even court records can be collected and sold by data brokers. The easier you are to find, the more vulnerable you are to scams, identity theft, and harassment. Privacy isn't about paranoia. It's about peace of mind. And that's why we partner with Incogni. Incogni works on your behalf to remove your personal data from data brokers and online databases. And their custom removals feature goes even further. If you find a specific page or listing that concerns you, you can send them the link, and a dedicated privacy specialist will handle the takedown process directly.

It's simple, create your account, provide one-time authorization, and let Incogni do the work. Incogni is the only data removal service independently verified by Deloitte and offers a 30-day money-back guarantee if you're not satisfied. You can cancel at any time. They can't harm you if they can't find you. Use code mime at incogni.com slash mime and get 60% off an annual plan. That's incogni.com slash myam. Yeah, I know, I know. I mean, how I even got to Army and how I got to the FBI to Army intelligence, I wasn't making money at the FBI.

The pay was lousy, and I wanted to be an FBI agent. I didn't have the eyesight. So I was working with a woman who left. You didn't have the eyesight. You could see into other portals of the universe and time. Who needs eyeballs? I know, I know. I still have trouble.

So my friend laughed, and she called me up. And she said, come over to Army Intelligence. They're looking for political science degrees. And you get a raise for two years. And you're going to make much more money than what you're making now. So I apply. And I was with the military, and my family's not military. I went to college during the 70s when people were protesting Vietnam. I mean, it was a culture I wasn't used to. So I wasn't really uncomfortable. I wasn't real comfortable with it. But I did it. I did it. And every time I went to quit or do something else, it just something would happen that would make me stay.

When I was 29 or 30, I had heard about this, the psychic program. You have these experiences as a child. You intuitively knew that you had some sort of like ability or access, but you didn't talk about it. And it somewhat was set aside, it sounds like. And then you just independently of all this, you went and got a polyside degree from a lovely university. And then you went to work for the government. What did you think you were going to be doing? Nothing to do with your special abilities? Oh, no, no, no. I wanted to be an FBI agent, but I didn't have to have that.

Just a regular FBI agent, not one who sees into the universe. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, no. It was just a regular government job, but I didn't have the eyesight. But with Army intelligence, you're talking diplomacy. You know, how do you collect, how do you collect intelligence? I was an analyst. They always made me an analyst because political science was. broad. A lot of history, a lot of diplomacy, international law. How do you get along with other countries? What's going on in other countries that the United States needs to know about? Okay. So at what point did you reveal to the government that you have psychic abilities that allow you to leave your body? Okay. This is what happened. When I went to the U.S. Army, military intelligence. They put me on a two, three, it was a three year internship. And during that internship, I visited all the intelligence communities in Washington. I took classes at the different

agencies. And what I was taught was who the intelligence organizations were, what their missions were. And then, and then at the end of that three years, they gave me a job. Well, I did Central American Affairs because at that time it was, and I'm female, I'm not military, and I'm not a military female. So I did not get the high visibility accounts like missiles in the Soviet Union or tanks in China. I got good old Central America. Well, little did people know during that time in the 1980s. It was heated up. You had Noriega in Panama. You had San Deneas. in Nicaragua, you had the insurgencies in El Salvador in Honduras. And then when President Bush, the first President Bush came along, he allowed the military to partake in drug interdiction.

So it was a hotbed. Once they brought the drugs in, he had to take them out. So it was interesting. It was an interesting, I think it was more exciting and more interesting. thing than I think people would imagine that it would have been. But anyway, that's what I did. Well, what happened was I had learned through, I had learned that there was, well, that there was this program that the Army had with these, they were looking for people that had these abilities. And it just shocked me because I didn't know. And apparently this program, it was a special program. It was highly classified. And the reason I did not know about it was because it was never

spoke, it was never talked about. But there was a general, every so often you change, there was a general that came into Army Intelligence and he became the director or the commander of U.S. Army and Intelligence. And every three to four years, these generals rotate. So this general came in, and his name was Albert Stubblebine. Now, General Stubblebine believed in he was looking, he was very open about being psychic because he was believed he wanted soldiers to use their, he was a spoonbender. Have you ever heard of Yori Galler? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, he was a spoon bender. And so he would hold, you know, he'd be in his office and everybody would be sitting around bending spoons. And I don't know if you ever saw the movie, Men Who Stare at Goats, but they do have a general in there that, like, walks through walls. And that would have been General Stubblebine. And I think there was a man that played General Stubblebine's right-hand man, and that would have been Colonel Alexander. So, yes, that movie portrayed. So I did not, so apparently this General Stubblebine's seemed to be more open about looking for people who had these abilities. And on Friday evenings, he would take busloads of people down to the Monroe Institute,

down in favor of Virginia, which is a Bob Monroe teaches people how to go out of body. So he would take, you would go down on a Friday night and come back on a Sunday evening. And he opened this up to his military. So the first time I got on the list, there was a woman. You would go down to personnel and I said, I want to go to Monroe. So wait, I'm sorry. I want to just jump it. Did you tell anyone like, I think I have these powers?

Or did you not even relate it to what you had experienced as a child? Oh, no. I just wanted, whoever had the interest could go. I didn't say anything. I just went down. It went like if you're interested, if you think you want this, go sign up. You can go to Monroe. Got it.

I didn't say anything. So I'd go see the woman and she'd put my name on the list. So the first time she called me up and she said, we took your name off the list because some colonels flying in from Hawaii to go. And so I was over. So in other words, I couldn't go because some high ranking official took my, okay. So then it happened the second time I was supposed to go. And she said, you've been canceled again. And I said, okay. So then the third time I was. My name was on the list. And she said, okay, she said, this isn't fair. She says, I will go in and I will fight. I will fight. I think you should. I said, okay, go ahead or whatever. But I don't know what happened.

I didn't go that third time. So I never did make it to Monroe. I never made it. Now, at that point, when I knew I had the abilities and I started to channel, I knew people that had access to the general. So I said, I'd like to meet him. I'd like to be, I would, I channel, I would like to go be, I don't know if I asked to be in the program, but I said, I have these abilities. You know, maybe he'd be interested in talking to me, or what do you think?

And they were like, oh, yeah, sure. He's, you know, that's, he's looking for people like you. So I went and met him. Well, it was 1984, and he was retiring because he was losing support from the Joint Chief of Staff. And he said, I'll retire. I can go out and work on this. I can have my own company and do this. So that was 1984. And I thought, well, there, I'm not going to get into the program because they shut, they would have shut down the remote viewers. They were working out at Fort Meade in a in a pre-World War I structure. So I thought, well, that's it. I'm not going to go into the

psychic program. And this is what happened, which I did not find out. until years later. In 1984, General Stubblebine retired. And people that were working as remote viewers were at Fort Meade, Maryland, and they weren't doing anything. They were sitting around waiting for orders. I guess when they closed down a program, they would put you another job. So you had military people waiting to get orders to see what their next assignment would be. Then you had civilians, and they would have probably put them into the workforce. They would have put them back into the workforce for Army Intelligence. So you had a handful of people in 1984 kind of sitting around saying,

okay, where are we going to go? What are we going to do? Well, there was a man by the name of Dr. Jack Verona who worked for the Defense Intelligence Agency, which the Defense Intelligence Agency is like the sister of the CIA. the only thing they deal with defense intelligence, and the CIA deals with more general intelligence. So Dr. Verona, he had an interest in psychiness because he was getting his doctorate's degree down at Duke University in North Carolina. He was dating a woman who eventually became his wife, and his future mother-in-law was working.

for a husband and wife parapsychology team named Rhine and Rhine, and they were doing psychic research at Duke University. Well, Dr. Verona met his girlfriend, met his future mother-in-law, and he got involved with this ESP stuff. So when he graduated with his doctorate's degree, he first went to CIA as a senior scientist, and he gave a small contract to Stanford Research Institute to find out what they were doing in this psychic research. And so there were two scientists Hal put off in Russell Targ. They coined the word remote viewing, which is ESP, and they got the word because they were looking at Chinese children, had clairvoyant abilities. And whenever it was interpreted from China to English, what the Chinese children were doing, it was.

was coming out like, I remotely view or I view remotely. And that's how you came up with the word remote viewing. So Dr. Verona in 1984 went to Congress and said, don't leave the people there, leave the building there. He said, take the remote viewers, take the psychics and transfer them from Army intelligence into his agency. So they took the people and they took, now these people no longer worked for Army intelligence. They were now employees of the Defense Intelligence Agency, which probably took a year. Because they had to go to Congress and they had to write a new language. And I think Al Gore wrote the language for the program.

So by 1986, that program was reinstated. It wasn't lost. It went from one agency to another. The name had to change. So they went through all of the administrative stuff. And then in January, 1986, I got approached if I got approached to be part of the project. So I just want to be clear here in my understanding. So the government has no problem, leaning into people who have extrasensory perception and in many cases are able to view things in places where their body is not. And this was used as a legitimate technique that not only were they recruiting people who had these abilities or claimed to. This was a program that they believed you could teach people how to have these abilities. Is that right? This program was sanctioned. Well, first of all, the CIA was doing a lot of this back in the 60s and 70s. But they were doing, I guess they were giving, what, LSD to people or whatever?

They'd have to stop. The CIA stopped them. They said, you know, you got people falling out of window, jumping out of windows. Yeah, the Wormwood series, fictional, was an accounting of that particular scientist, yeah. So what happened was is that we had Dr. Verona and some, there was a doctor, there was a genetic doctor, he was a general of the Air Force's Medical Intelligence Command. Some people went to Congress and say, look, we really want to get this going again. And Congress said, we're going to give you a program, but there's going to be human use. You're going to have human use guidelines.

You cannot touch their brain. You cannot touch them. You cannot give them any drugs. We had oversight by lawyers at the Pentagon. So we were very protected. We were very protected. There were laws on what they could not and what they could do to us. Angela, you know a lot of people either don't know this or might find it really unbelievable

that the government was using these techniques and also teaching these techniques. Like, I mean, you're very casual about it because you're, you're very casual about it because, you're, You lived it, but for many of us, like, I grew up believing, you know, I was raised by liberal parents. I was, you know, raised like that the government sends people to countries to kill people that we don't know. And the government does a lot of bureaucratic stuff. And it makes rules. And it is not nice to black people. You know, like I was raised with this structure of a government.

It nowhere in my education about what the government does. I knew they spied. Like, I knew there were spies. But, no, this is like a very different level, Angela. You're very comfortable with it. And I'm like, my jaw is on the floor. Well, you know, when you get involved with intelligence, intelligence is nothing more than collecting information. It's nothing. And people in the intelligence field, they just love information. They just, they don't care how you get it.

If you're living in a materialist world, which most people are, it would never occur to me like, oh, I want information so badly. I'm going to send people out of their bodies into another realm of existence. to get the information I need so I can do all the evil things I do as a government, that wouldn't occur to me because I didn't know that it's real. Oh, I know. I know. And believe me, believe me. It upset a lot of people. I mean, it took a lot of fighting to keep the worst. It's still upsetting people, Angela. Well, the thing is, is that if people, if this, okay, it was hard. I mean, it was a hard sale. I mean, these people would go to the government and then ask for money. And of course, you had Congresspeople that were totally against it.

And if this type of work is against a person's belief system, they're not going to believe it no matter what happens. You can get, you know, we would think give them results, give them, you know, hey, look what we did. Yeah, we found this hostage. You know, we were able to do that. They don't care. It's against their belief system. Now, we had people that fully supported us, but it was a fight. I mean, it was a battle to keep us alive.

And I think we had an IG, they called it Inspector General's IG inspection. They tried to close us down one time. So there were battles. But we had people smart enough that we had people in the system that was smart enough to keep us, they were political savvy. They knew what they were doing. They knew how to keep us alive. I think the general, the genetic doctor,

I think he retired and he knew how to put money in the system for the next 10 years to keep the research going. So you had people with know-how. I'm out of my mind for Angela. I need to move in with her to fully obtain all the information that I need about what's in her head. I think we should send you to psychic school. We should sign you up.

Well, apparently it's something that you can learn. The government knew that. I can't even, like, meditate for five minutes and have my brain quiet down, but I can be taught to do this. Well, we'll get to that. Sorry, go ahead, Jonathan. I think we should take a second and explore the theory that's at play here that goes against some people's materialist beliefs, right?

Like, let's just talk theoretically for a minute about what's happening because I think where the shock comes from, that the government was funding and utilizing this goes to a different worldview, right? If you believe that people don't have extrasensory abilities and we're basically just biologic machines and that consciousness isn't separate from our brains and that we can't travel throughout space and time and get information, then it's very hard to understand what we're talking about. Let's start with what is ESP as a starting point? And let's talk about what does it mean to gather information? How is that possible? I have my answer, but let's do

Angela's answer first. I think ESP is just knowing things, having information that are beyond the five, that you're receiving information or you're knowing things that are beyond the five senses. You can't taste it. You can't see it. You can't smell it. and that's what I think it is. I do think that there's ways that you can. Now, a lot of times I recommend the book, The Silva Mind Control. And I tell people that that book,

you don't have to meditate for 10 minutes. It's just, it's just, you kind of go down and you meditate. You put yourself in a little meditative state. And if, okay, suppose, suppose you want to know, like, you know, I wonder what my day is going to be like today. So you kind of go down and you relax. And then you kind of, in your mind's eye, you turn on the television. So then you see yourself and you see yourself going through the day.

And then when you're done, you just turn the television off. So a lot of it is visualization. And this is what the government did. They did a lot of visualization techniques. Correct me if I'm wrong here, Angela. But the practice of turning that television on, and practicing the visualization, at first you may be making it up, but the more you practice it, what you're doing is you're opening up a portal

to non-local information to be presented to you. And the more you practice it, the more likely it is that you're going to get things that are relevant to your experience and that will actually potentially happen. Maybe so, but the training the subconscious. This is what happens when you train somebody in remote viewing or to be psychic, you're telling the subconscious that it's going to do something different for you. Now, when you take people in and you give them visualization techniques and they're going to go down

and they're going to access and describe that picture in the envelope, people will do really good because, you know, they'll kind of go down and they'll say, oh, I see a tree, oh, I see a house. And they're going to give you something and then you're going to show them the picture and everybody's going to be happy. And everybody thinks they can do this. Then all of a sudden, the subconscious comes in and says, hey, you're teaching me something new that I'm not used to and I don't like it. And I'm not going to do it. So then what happens is people go, they have a downward turn where they can't remote view.

And then what happens is you have to keep working it. And then the subconscious will come back and start working for you. But it's a subconscious. I think if you had me look in an envelope, I don't, I mean, you're saying that I could be trained to drop into this place that would allow, so I'm sorry, I want you to walk me through it though. So you're saying that, that envelope, let's say a closed envelope with a picture in it. You're saying, and I'm trying to make this make sense, like I want this to work. you're saying that that exists in the universe as, you know, binary code, right?

It exists as zeros and ones that I can access somehow without my eyeballs or my occipital lobe. Yeah. Now, what the scientists have shown, what the scientists have proved, that there are some pictures, which we call targets, there are some pictures that are very conducive to remote viewing. Now, if I want you to do a remote viewing of a picture in an envelope, you're going to be the psychic. And what we found out is we want to make you, we want you to be successful. So what we're going to do is we're going to put you in a quiet room, maybe semi-dark or dark, so you can relax. Then what we're going to do is we're going to make sure that that picture is something that your subconscious can,

match on to. Now, what they found is shapes. They like to do pyramids because pyramids is a triangle. They like pictures of Stonehenge or the Kentucky Derby because they have circles and they find, or they like to do the Washington monument because it's a peak. It's like a mountain. So what you do is you start people on, you start people on these targets that are very conducive for remote viewing, and that's what the scientists at SRI at Stanford Research Institute studied. What makes a good, you know, how can we train people? And the subconscious loves drawings and symbols. So if that's how the subconscious is going to give you information, then that's what we're going to train the subconscious to do. You are now in an environment where the, the ability

abilities that came to you naturally as a child, even if you didn't connect it that way. The abilities that came naturally to you as a child are now being channeled in order to gain information about people, places, and things that are not in your proscenium. Like, they're not in front of you. And this is like a legitimate thing that you're all doing while working for the government. Yeah, we write up reports, and we write up formal reports and send them to headquarters.

Okay, so I want you to give us what is obviously an unbelievable example of what happened in 1989. So you were charged with trying to locate Charles Jordan. What is it like to

get an assignment from your superiors to try and find a person like do you get like a file with a picture? Oh no, no, no. We don't get any. You don't get anything. You don't get anything. Because if you get something, that's like cheating.

You can't give, you can't. Well, I wouldn't want you cheating while you're remote viewing. Like, I want the real thing. Yeah, that's why we had oversight. Okay. Okay. So how are you, so you are, how did you come to find Charles Jordan. Okay, my boss took me into the, okay, this is the backstory. Charles Jordan was on the 10 most wanted list, and he was on that TV program, the 10 most wanted. So this would have been

considered an unclassified case. So my boss took me into the, into the, we worked in one room, and then we went to, we worked in one room, and then we went to another building to one. And then we went to another building to work. You mean to remote view? There was another building. So my boss took me into the other building. He says we have an operation.

So my boss said, he said, where is Charles Jordan? That's it. Where's Charles Jordan? Okay. Now also... Did you say fuck if I know? So I looked at him. Now,

I'm also a channelist. So not only do I remember, there's other ways. that I work because I'm a natural psychic. See, I'm a natural psychic. So I'm not, things can come to me without the norm, without the training. So that's a whole other story. When did you, did you tell the military this? Did you say, oh, by the way, I channel. Oh, yeah. How'd that go over? What comfort? Oh, they were military men. They said, you can't do that. That's not the right way. They said, you can't do that. That's not the right way. In here, we teach you the right way to become

What is happening? Wow. So I said, is that right? So I said, okay, fine, because I believe me, I worked for the military. I was a female civilian. I had younger females come in wearing the military uniform and would get more respect than me that didn't know any. I mean, before they even knew their accounts, I was used to this. So they said, well, you have a bad. habit with your channeling because things come to me. I do automatic writing. And they said, so you can't do that. So I said, okay, I won't do that. So I just did what they wanted me to do. So after a year and a half, the management left. The man who said I had a bad habit left. The man who left, everybody left. So we got a new guy that came in. And this guy, this, my boss, Fern, he was part of the program in the early years. And he said, I really don't care how people get information. He said, I know that Stanford put out a protocol.

It was called coordinate remote viewing. And he said, that's fine. He said, but, you know, I don't care, I don't really care what people do to get information. And then there was a scientist that they brought in at Stanford Research Institute called Dr. May. And Ed May said, I don't care if a psychic stands on their head to give me the information. So they were real liberal about the information. So I said, fine, I'll do my channeling. So they said, okay, you can do your channeling.

So it's written. So they said, where's Charles Jordan? So I said, Charles Jordan is in L-O-W-E-L-L-L-Y-O-O-W-E-L-L-W-E-L-L-W-W-W-W-W. What did you do to get that information? Talk us through what you do. Like, you close your eyes, you spin it. in a circle. I looked at him and I put my pen on the paper and I wrote out LOL, L-O-W. Just like that. Just like that. Just like that. It came like that. It just came.

Now, my boss looked at me, Fern, and he was born in Lowell, Massachusetts. And he said, Angela, do you mean Lowell, Massachusetts? And I said, no, because at that point, I was getting the feeling that you get sensations you get feelings what was the sensation what's the sensation it was the west i said no it's it's it's the west i'm getting like you know the cowboy whenever you were getting i'm getting like cowboys feelings indians you know cowboys and india and that's not massachusetts no ma'am that's that's that's that's Wyoming and genie the secretary she always kind of knew that you know she she's like she said Wyoming she's so we kind of we're like No, it's Wyoming.

Well, after that, I knew that I started to get all of this feelings about drugs. The pant, like illegal drugs coming in from, you know. What's that feeling? What does it feel like? Just drugs. I started to smell drugs. And I said, oh, this is. So I had a choice to make.

And I said, look, I said, I feel the guys in Wyoming. But if I go any further, I'm going. to put, I got, I had to get out of the session because then I would have put him in Florida or someplace. So it was a conscious decision on my part and I said, I'm going to say he's in Wyoming and let's, let's get out of the session because I was afraid with all of the drug feeling coming in that I was going to put in someplace else because he was one, he was a customs agent that went bad. See, he was, he was wanted, he was a customs agent that was doing drug interdiction, but then for some reason he took the money and he went rogue. And, you know, in police

organizations, if one of their own go off, you know, or not honest, other cops, other people don't like him. So customs really wanted him. Okay. So we've got, we've got Charles Jordan. You said level or lowell? You said low? I said no Wyoming. Right. And we didn't know, but we, then we went to, there was a small book in the room of an atl, just pages of maps, pages of maps. And Fern said, you know, there's a level of Wyoming. Not a low. I said close enough. That's it. You know, it was enough. I had to get out or I was going to change my information. And if you change, and that can happen psychically where you pick up one thing and then all of a sudden you're on to something else. And that happens.

And then you don't know what's right or what's wrong. So now we've got, there's a place called Lovell Wyoming. And I like that your response was close enough. I'm a freaking psychic. Go for it. So what happened then? Well, we came out. And of course, you know, the government goes crazy because you can't write a report with two words,

Lovell Wyoming. So they were like, how are we going to get this? They're like, can you give me something else? I said, no, that's it. So they gave it to Dr. Verona, and Dr. Verona went to Customs. And of course, everybody had the man in Florida, in the Bahamas, in the South. And Dr. Verona said, we have a person that has them in Love at Wyoming. And Customs said, he would never be in Wyoming. He would be down south. So we said, okay, thank you very much. So about a month later, and they kept nagging me to work this because they wanted more information. I couldn't give it. It wasn't there. It just wasn't coming through.

So about a month later, I think one guy came down from headquarters. And I think because he came down from headquarters, I said, okay, I'll do it again. So I went in and I said, if you want Charles Jordan, he's traveling west of Wyoming, west of Vlovel. And I said, and I said, and I explained this hotel that was near an Indian burial ground. And I explained the Indian burial ground. And you were just getting more information. Yeah.

By that time, I was just getting more information. So, so I did it. So I said, okay, let's try it one more time. I wasn't sure how it was going to go. So I said he's moving west of Wyoming. there was a burial, I explained the Indian burial ground, the hotel, so Dr. Verona went back to customs and said, I'm sorry, but the person that, this person who has done pretty good in finding things and people, said that he's moving west of Lovell, Wyoming. And the customs man said, as we are speaking,

we are apprehending Charles Jordan 100 miles west of Wyoming. of Lovell, Wyoming. No. Angela, no. That's crazy. I know. So anyway, I was real happy, and I wanted the reward money. It was in a class of my case.

I said, I want the reward money, and they said, you were just doing your job. And they said, that's how they, I mean, yeah. And so then they told me, I said, how did they get him? And they said there was a security guard at Yellowstone National Park that found him. And that's how they arrested him. So this is in 1989, 1989. And so, okay, they got Charles Jordan, nice job, Angela. Everybody was happy.

It was one for the books. Well, in 1995, because it was an unclassified case, the BBC got a hold of the case and researched it, they flew from England over here to where I live in Maryland, and they interviewed me and this man named Dale Graff. Dale was part, he worked for Dr. Verona. Well, they came back a year later, and they did a reenactment of the case. I think the reenactment took place in June, either 1995 or 1996. Dale said, boy, it's a shame we didn't get, it's a shame that our agency didn't get any credit

for the fine. And the Wyoming man, the Wyoming customs man said, are you kidding? It was because of Angela. We found Charles Jordan. And they said about three weeks after I said he was in Wyoming, Charles Jordan sent his mother a picture of himself to show that he was alive and well. And she showed it to the FBI. And when the FBI saw the picture, there was a truck that had level Wyoming,

that had Wyoming license plates. And they said at that point, they started to send pictures up and FBI people up to start looking for Charles Jordan. And the area is, it's not that. populated. And they said that probably they had the pictures all over the place at the Yellowstone. So they said it was because of me. So here I was, you know, years later that we just that we got the credit. What role do you think that remote viewing, channeling should and could have in the defense apparatus moving forward? Well, you know, I was talking to my friend Ed May, the scientist

about it. And he said, you know, Angela, when we were doing it, there wasn't that many collection methods. Now there's so many collection methods now out there that they probably don't need psychics like they used to. But we were talking about AI, but I don't think AI can be like a psychic. So even though I don't think, I still think you need psychics other than AI. But I do believe there is a need for psychics because I think if you had a good psychic and they could help you find weapons of mass destruction, I think that they're good at finding hostages. I do think that remote viewing or psychics do, I think they do have a place. Now, it may be different than whenever I did it, but you still have terrorists. You still need to know plans and intentions of world leaders. Are they good?

And so I do think it, I do think it needs its place. There's so many different ways to collect information now, but I still feel you need the psychic. And you can take the psychic information and just blend it in with what I, when I worked for intelligence, I worked for over 32 years. Only nine of those years were as the psychic. But the rest was an analyst. And I think I had different accounts.

And you take, you know, you've got signals doing, collecting something. you've got a picture. Somebody's on the ground telling you something. So you put it all together. And that's what you do with psychic information. You put it all together and then you piece something together. But I would think, now when we met with the Soviets or the former Soviet, the Russians, they wanted a joint U.S. Russian program to fight terrorism.

They want to work with us to fight terrorism. Well, I think the important thing that really stands out for me when you're talking about being an analyst and using a collection of data, folding it in, it's important for me to say that it's not that anyone should blindly trust an intuitive or psychic signal or someone else's opinion. It's about collecting the data and analyzing it amongst other signals, your intelligence, your rational thought. And sometimes it is that the psychic information will come in ahead or in front of what rational thought can justify. And you might have to offer a bridge. But if someone says, quit your job tomorrow, you should be a little cautious unless you have some additional information about what's going on. So I want to go back just a little bit in time. When did you start channeling? And when did you know that that was a thing that you could do or having psychic abilities?

Like, when did that start? It was after my father died. My father died in 1982. In 1983, my mother sent me this book. She said, so at that point, I was working for Army Intelligence. My mother sent me the book. My mother was taken an ESP class at the college. And then I kind of just opened up.

So did you channel, like, for fun on the weekends? Like, did you use it recreationally? Like, was this something you did? Like, I mean, I'm imagining, like, were you dating someone? Could you channel and see what they were feeling? Like, were you using this actively? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

I was finding out information on my family. I remembered I had a cousin and her husband. They were trying to adopt. They were a plant, they were waiting to adopt a baby. And I said they would have their baby in March. And they did. And then I had a cousin. He was a businessman.

And he was running for politics in Pennsylvania. So I would do a lot of the forecasting business and things that were going to happen politically in Pennsylvania during that time period. And I would tell them, yeah. So those are things that in theory, right, if I wanted to, like, play a statistical game, I could be like, okay, well, you had a one in 12 chance or a one in six chance generally of knowing when they applied for adoption or even politics. stuff, right? Those are things that I could be like, well, there's only so many ways things to go. Were there any instances where you were tapping into something on the lines of what you ended up kind of finding with Charles Jordan, where you were learning information through channeling that

for you was indisputable? I don't know. I remembered my cousin said, I told my cousin our husband was going to get a new job in April and he got a due job May 1st and he said it didn't count. As I said, April, and he didn't get it. No, but I'll tell you what I was really interested in was life, what goes on after we leave. I was getting a lot of information on my deceased relatives. And my mother was real happy about it because some of them I didn't know and they were her relatives. So, and then I can remember that my mother, I think she had a miscarriage and they explained that the soul was on that side and that it was still part of our family karma and that

even though the soul wasn't born, when we go back, I'll meet that soul because it would have been my brother. So it's, I learned a lot like that, a lot of spiritual stuff. Like we go, we go on. We go on. We come back. I, I want to know there are entities that sometimes accompany you when you see things, when did that start happening? And can you talk a little bit about how you maybe stood out from other people in your department in that you were a channeler that was using entities? Can you describe that? Well, what did they call you? Sorry. I'm a witch. You know, I'm laughing about things now. But, you know, at this age and everything I've been through, what can anybody do to me at this point.

Yeah, they were, actually, that was the automatic writing, was that more or less you get helpers from the other side who kind of help you along. What is automatic writing? I guess it's called channeling or spirit writing and that it's channeling. Did you ever, I don't know, have you ever seen the way John Edward works or who was the psychic medium, what they call her the Long Island? medium? Yeah, Teresa Caputo, we spoke with her. They're talking it. When you see them working, they're channeling. I can do that, but I do it with automatic writing. I'm doing what they're

doing, but I rely on my pen or pencils to do it. You just put your pen down and you just write what comes. I can do what they do, but I can't do it verbally. I think what they do is that they can do it without any tool is amazing to me. I do what they do. The only thing is, is I rely on the pen or paper. And what are these entities? They're just helpers. They're like helpers that can help you or that can guide you.

They kind of come in. It's sort of like you get the helpers that you need when you need them. It's sort of like if you have, if your mother's on the other side, okay? Well, she's on the other side and she's busy doing things. but maybe you're going through a hard time. So she'll say, hey, you know what? I better go help my daughter out. She's going through a hard time.

So she'll come down and she'll kind of guide you a little bit. Does this happen to everybody? You just, we're just not all tapping into it. Like, nothing happens for me like that, Angela, like ever. You have awareness. I think if you had awareness, I think, because there are. I mean, it's, believe me, it's just not us here. It can't be.

There has to be more, don't you think? I mean, I'd like to think I just, I don't have, I just don't really have personal, you know, experience to speak from. And I know Jonathan has a lot more kind of, you know, comfortability and familiarity with this notion. But like, whenever I've had, and I've gone to a lot of guides, a lot of healers, a lot of channelers, a lot of mystics. And they're like, your guides are with you, your angels or what I've, like, I don't, I just, for me, I, I haven't had that experience. I think it's just aware. Jonathan, have you had it? You're sensitive? I have. Yeah.

Am I the only one? Valerie? You have angels and guides? No, Valerie's with me. Valerie and I want to believe, though. Well, I've heard you describe that nothing is a coincidence. And tell us a little bit more about that. I think synchronous, I believe in synchronicity. If synchronicity happens in your life, pay attention to it. I think that we're here to meet the people that we're supposed to. supposed to meet.

Just nothing is cool. No, it's not an accident. Nothing is an accident. I think one of the reasons that Maim can say that she doesn't have the experience of being guided is that she has a very strong intellect and will sense something or, you know, have an intuition and then try to rationalize it in the mind in certain ways. And so one of the ways, you know, if we can generalize about how people start to integrate more intuition into their lives, I'd love to hear some suggestions.

One might start to be to start to notice those initial gut responses, reactions in certain situations. Would you agree as that as a tactic? Or, you know, given that you've studied this and also had a personal, you know, aptitude for it before studying. How would you recommend that people start to develop and become more aware of intuitive abilities? I really, I really think meditation opens people up. And I really think it makes people more just, I believe meditation does it or learning yoga. But I do believe it's through meditation because I've seen people just open up through meditation. And it doesn't have to be a long, like the Silva Mind Control, 10 minutes, just examples, just something.

like that. But yeah, I mean, you have what, a doctorate's degree in what? Neuroscience. Neuroscience. Yeah. I mean, that's, you're thinking. You're a thinker. I mean, I'm also a deep feeler. I just really, yeah, I, yeah, I do spend a lot of time in my head for sure. But I guess it's also, you know, it takes all types of people, like to make the world go around. I wonder what it would be like, you know, to live in a world where everyone was tapping into this kind of thing. I think we'd have a very different, you know, our life would be very different. Oh, I think it would be, people would feel more. You would feel, you wouldn't want to hurt somebody. I mean, I think people would, would just feel more. They would, you know, you just care more. You know, watch what you say. You don't want to hurt,

not be a bully. I think that you just, just feel more. Are there things that you experience when you remote view or when you, you know, kind of tap into this place that are scary or dark or information you wish you didn't have? Yeah, but that's, you know, that's negative. I call that negativity, negativity. And that planet Earth, you know, we had the bad angels come down and they fought with the good angels. So we have negativity. So we have positive and we have negative on Earth. And that, yeah, you do have, there are some dark energies, but, and I felt dark energies,

but they dissipate after about 20 minutes. I figure, oh, here comes a dark energy. And then you sort of weighted out a little bit. And when I do a reading, energy comes in, okay? And that energy is around the person. So I'm reading, but that energy around the person will stay there. for maybe 40 minutes, 45 minutes, 50 minutes, and I give a person a reading based on that energy. But after that, the energy just starts dissipating, meaning I've said what I had to say.

And that's the same thing with negative energy. If it comes in, after a while, it'll just start to dissipate. So I remembered one time talking to a very elderly lady who was psychic, and she said, Angela, if you're going to work in this field, just expect to see it all. When energy is witnessed, it sounds like it wants to be understood and seen through these extra senses. If you're giving someone a reading and the energy kind of collects to be read and then dissipates, it wants us to have access to it.

It does, but it can only stay still. Yeah. A lot of people want an hour reading. How much do you charge for an hour reading? or how long are you reading an hour? They don't realize after 50 minutes, they've heard what they had. It starts, the energy starts dissipating. So I start repeating information.

But you're right. When the energy is there, they want it. You're right. That's why when somebody says, oh, I have a ghost in my house or I have a spirit in my house and they get afraid. I say, acknowledge the spirit. Just acknowledge it. just say, hello, how are you? How can I help you? What are you doing? It's acknowledgement, exactly what you just said. You have to acknowledge it. It's interesting that acknowledgement

then can shift it. So whether it's a reading or whether it's a negative experience, if, like, I had something just the other day, I texted mine and I was like, I slept horribly. I woke up in the middle of the night. I had this like really intense terror. And I started trying to decipher it and figure out what it was. And really, when I acknowledged it, I was like, okay, I hear it, I understand. And then it was maybe about 30 minutes. It just started to become less intense versus me like, I don't want to interact with this. Then it would sort of feed it and fuel it.

That's exactly right. I'm really enjoying the energetic love fest that the two of you are having. But I'm still like trying to understand that the U.S. military just actively employs, you know, people and that we weren't told. This is something that this is, I think, what's the most shocking to me, is that this is not part of an accepted conversation and it would have been, and I think it would be very helpful for people to not demonize this aspect of special abilities, even if we can't necessarily understand them or quantify them or like, you know, a peer-reviewed journal paper about how you do what you do. The fact that these are techniques

that are actively used, and in many cases, accepted, utilized, and, you know, you've done great good, as of all the people, I'm sure, who've worked in this field. You know, why is that not part of a conversation about guess what? The entire human experience is not simply made of what we can access with the five senses. Like, I would have liked someone to tell me that in second grade. Just not to freak me out. I mean, I already was told to believe in God from the time I was three, right? Like, it would have been helpful if someone would have said, this is a thing that's legitimate. We don't really understand it, but it can be used in helpful ways. And we should not call people witches who have these abilities. I think it's just fear bait. I just think fear was put

into, it's just fear. People, it's just fear put into it. Now, I do. I do. I do. I just fear. I just fear. I know that when the Cold War ended in 1991, we had a scientist as a contractor, and he started to go over to Russia because he wanted to find out what were they doing. Because that was the whole reason why our program existed. You know, the Soviet Union's doing it. We got to, we have to do it. And he went over and for about a 12 year period, he made some, he made some trips over there and he met. He met the scientists. He met their remote viewers. And he said they had a much more relaxed, they were more relaxed with their remote viewers because in the Soviet Union, shamanism was part of their history. And they acknowledged the shamanism. Khrushchev acknowledged

shamanism. Stalin acknowledged shaman. This was, and that they, they don't see it like we see it. They're much more accepting. So that was, so that was an eye-opener for me because, I mean, we were taught that these people didn't even believe in God, but they do. And I was on, we went, we were invited to Moscow in 2015 because there were some books written. Over time, we met the ex-Soviet, the former Soviet Union people. They met us. So a book was written. And we were, I was invited to Russia in 2015 to a reception that they held in our honor. And I went to Red Square and they have all these churches on Red Square and they said that Stalin went to church every day. So they were spiritualists and that didn't have a problem with it.

So do you need to have a spiritual framework, do you think, to be open to this? No, because some people are just, some people can do it. I don't think so. I mean, people can do it's what, okay, if you have the ability, whatever you want to do with it, you're going to do with it. But of course, there's consequences. It's like everything. I'm going to ask you hard questions.

Is there a God? Oh, I think there's a higher. Of course, there's something higher than us. If you want to call it God, I would think so. Is that something you interface with? No, but I feel it. I mean, I can feel that I can feel it. My girlfriend, now, she's had, my girlfriend, she's a dowser.

She can find dead bodies. and she can locate. Her father was a very well-known dowser. And dowsers are people that find things. And her father taught the Marines how to stay away from landmines during the Vietnam era. And his name was Louis Mataisha.

He was a very well-known dowser. And he had five children and the last two were twins and one of the girls has this ability. Now, she told me, and she said, now, every time she gets sick, she has a near-death experience, as she always sees God. So I said, well, what's God like? And she said, well, he just always tells her to go back and tell people to stop killing each other and to be nice to animals. So I said, I guess that she's seeing somebody or is having an interaction that she's calling God.

And I think, you know, people that are struck by lightning, if you know somebody that's struck by lightning, they're going to keep getting struck by lightning. Well, that's not where I was going with that, but that's fascinating. Okay. It's their body. It's the makeup of their body. If you're going to get hit, if you find somebody that was hit by lightning once, you're going to get it again. And I think this girl, every time she gets sick, she has. a near-death experience. So maybe that's...

Whoa. No, you know what I'm thinking of? I'm thinking of that my younger son, whenever he gets a fever, he gets, when he was a baby, he would get very shaky. And I didn't know it was a sign of kind of a neurological tenderness. But I'm also wondering, like, yeah, when our bodies do certain things, certain people are conduits, right? For certain kinds of, I mean, for lack of a better word, energy. right? Oh yeah. He could have been, he could have gone out of body. He could have, I mean, who knows what was going. I mean, something could have been going. Oh, I'm not, I'm not done asking him. He's only 16. We'll get it out of him. Here's another hard question, Angela. You had an experience when you were 13 with an entity that was not of this planet's kind of composition. Can you talk about what happened and how it informs what you understand about life elsewhere? Well, while I saw a UFO when I was, is that what you're talking about? That's what I'm talking about. Yeah, I saw a UFO in that kind of, well, we were, we were, I was with friends. We were playing

baseball, 13 years old, and it was that, you know, we have to quit playing because it was getting dark. It was a springtime dusk to dark. And we saw it. We saw this UFO. And, and, we were like, oh, wow. Well, we started screaming because... What did it look like? It was just a round. It was green. It was round with the ring around it.

And it went swish, shush, shish, shush, shush, shush, shush, shush. It went right over us. Was it like, I just give me a... It was like where a plane was or where a helicopter or like where a frisbee? It was low. It was low. It was low. It was low. And we, we screamed.

It was big. It was a round UFO with a ring around it. It was a green, and it was green. It was right over us. Okay, so then what happened? You screamed? Well, we screamed so that the grownups would come out and see it. And so then what happened was is that, and then it was reported as cited.

Wow. And so have you had other experiences? Oh, sure. Yeah, you said that you've left your body and saw beings that were not humanoid. I think I saw like a little gray. They called him the gray. And I felt like I knew him from before. That's why I believe in reincarnation.

Because when I saw him, I was very comfortable. I said, hey, how you doing? It was like I felt like I knew him from before. So I said, hey, how are you doing? It's been a while. And then he kind of nodded. The way that you describe these things, Angela, you might as well be telling me how to make your favorite cranberry muffins.

It's like very matter of fact. I want to go backwards a little bit because it was interesting comparison that the Soviet Union had a culture that accepted extrasensory ability. And, you know, in the U.S., particularly Canada, which is where I'm from, we didn't have that as part of our vernacular. Often people would spring up, there's a psychic, they put a shingle, a sign up, and then people, some are effective at what they're doing, others are maybe less effective and more misleading and just using perception, not getting actual ability. And so there's this difference, there's a disconnect between what is happening now, which is there's a conversation that we all potentially

have a human ability to experience more than five senses. And then what does that mean collectively for us if we are not only biological in our nature, but also energetic, spiritual? How can that help us. So I'm, you know, that's what really kind of what struck me in terms of connecting to some of our other conversations also that we've been having lately is that there's almost a resurgence. And the fact that the military and the government utilizes these techniques in many ways legitimizes it because it's a tool and that there are programs being paid for but with congressional dollars means that, wait a second. And all the people who were dismissing the potential, which is really extra human potential,

dismissing this can't just say, oh, that's nonsense. We have to really begin to adjust our perspective to say, well, we know that there are researchers who are looking into at the University of Virginia, for example, at the Institute of Perceptual Studies, looking into near-death experiences and what happens when the consciousness filter gets lifted and gets expanded, what are people being exposed to and being aware of? And then really, how does that translate to people in their everyday lives? Well, I would think that it would make people, what I would think it would make people more aware that, you know, that we're not the only ones here.

We're not the only planet here. I mean, we belong, Earth belongs to something bigger. are we messing up earth? A lot of people think that climate change is just about, it was political. It was two people made it too political. It doesn't exist. Whether you believe it or not, to think that we are, that we are it. The human species is it.

That's a lot of ego and a lot of arrogance. I would think it would want to open people's minds to question. And to maybe just be kinder to one another, try to help each other. I appreciate this perspective because I think that the thing that we worry about, and I was born in 1975, so I remember the 80s, I remember the 90s, I remember all of these fears, right? And we were. We were really raised with all this fear about what the Soviets were doing, even now, what China's doing, what Qatar's doing. You know, these are all these fears. But one of the main fears that I think a lot of people have, even if we're willing to, you know, sort of go there is what if other people are not

as good-natured as you about their extrasensory perceptive abilities? I know. And if they went, oh, I know. Well, the thing is, is that, you know, if they put out something, if you've got to be, you have to be careful what you're doing because you will have a reaction. You will, I mean, just be careful what you're doing. But there are people who may use these powers for, for things that are nefarious. And when we're thinking about, gosh, what are the Soviets doing with remote viewing? I mean, why were there balloons flying over Teaneck, New Jersey?

Right. We have this thought of like, what is somebody doing from another country, right? That they're watching us or that they're surveilling us in order to harm us. I mean, are there people, Angela, who have your abilities, who are using those abilities for wicked? I don't know. I don't know because we would ask that too. I remembered working, but I don't know. I still think there's something above all of that. I still feel that there may be people using it for bad purposes or try to use it for bad purposes, but there's still something higher than that that's going to keep it in place. And that a lot of times when people want to use it for the negativity, it's because they're not enlightened and they're only going to go so far. And even whenever you watch people that are psychic, it's almost you have to watch at, like, what level are they psychic? Are they at a basic level?

Are they spiritual? Are they spiritual? I mean, when you meet people and I meet psychics, you know, you determine what level are they at? How do you know? You just kind of know by talking to them. You know, you just know. Well, this is the thing that's hard, Angela. You know, but most people don't. Meaning I once sent Jonathan a picture of like,

I found this like this crystal store like out of the blue. And I was like, it appeared as if out of the sand. And I took a picture of it and I sent it to Jonathan. And he's like, no, you're not going there. And I'm like, I don't know. He told me not to go there because he had a feeling. He was tapping into something. And I'm just like, I don't know.

Tell me that I'm not going to be sad forever. That's what I want to hear, you know. I do think that there is something above. I still feel there's something higher than all of that that's going to keep things. I just still believe in the white light. I believe in the energy of God. And the energy of God is love. And that is what's going to keep us in place.

And that some people have a harder time. They're going to have harder lessons to learn that we're all the same. I mean, people just don't want to hear that. I want to ask you a little bit. We want to ask you just a couple more things, but I want to ask you about your personal life because so many of us, you know, have this image of like what people who have these abilities live like

or if you're skeptical about it, it's like, gosh, what's their life like, right? Did you choose to get married? Did you have kids? Like, what is your life like considering you have these abilities? What choices did you make with what you know? Well, because I was in the intelligence community, It's right. It was, it was, you had to be very career oriented. I had to be, it wasn't like I could sit back and say, well, not it's time to get married or whatever, but because of being in that field, I had to be very career oriented.

Now, I got into the program when I was, I think, 30 or 31, 32. I did not think I was going to be married. I wasn't looking to get married. I was, but I did meet my husband. I was 37 years old and I had a girlfriend that worked for HUD for HUD. For HUD, it was housing and urban development. Yeah. Yeah. And she had a party and she was the boss of these people and I met a man who eventually became my husband. Now, my husband, he didn't think much.

I mean, he thought that was nice that I was a psychic, but he had many interests. He was a boater. He had a boat. He lived in Washington, D.C., but he had a boat that he would bring out to Maryland every weekend and go on the Chesapeake Bay. And he was interesting. He had an interesting background. He was in the Air Force. He has a law degree.

He did a lot of work for the government, like in transportation. And then he did a lot to make sure that people were getting good food. Because I guess if you go to – he did a lot of – He worked for the homeless program. But so anyway, I met him and we got married. But everybody wants to know, Angela. Did you know if he loved you? Did you channel to find things out?

No, it took me by surprise. Wow. It just took me by surprise. Psychics can fall in love to by accident. Yeah. Yeah. And it became, and he did not have a problem with the psychic. he didn't have a problem with it.

His real mother died at his birth. And he always felt that his mother was with him. And I think he had some relatives that may have been psychic. Did you confirm that for him or did you, when you're mad at him, do you say, guess what? Your mother's not with you. Well, what happened was as I was living in Washington, D.C. in an apartment. And my neighbor that lived above me, she was an Egyptian. She worked at the Egyptian embassy.

And her name was Nefertiti. And she read homes. She read palms. So I told her, I said, read Alan, read Alan's palms. And she looked at him and she said, your real mother died at your birth. And he said, yes. And she said, but it wasn't due to childbirth. It was due to, and she said what it was.

And he said, yeah, you're right. It wasn't due to childbirth. It was she needed a blood transfusion and they gave her the wrong blood. And she, like, it sounds like you, you gravitate towards people who also have similar powers. Yeah. So he was comfortable. He loved animals. I mean, we had cats, dogs, birds. Whoa. Do you have, do you have any relationships? Do you have any ability to communicate with animals? Oh, sure. Oh, sure. What do you mean? Oh, sure. Tell us about it, Angela. That's amazing. Oh, yeah. You can read it. Oh, yeah. My girlfriend, she had, I think, eight cats and four dogs. I used to

read, you know, tell me what's going on with. Yeah. Oh, sure. What is that? What is, okay, so, any living being we can, in theory, tap into, what is that like to tap into an animal? You go to this quiet place? Like, is it the same method? Oh, yeah. It's the same method as I would read a person. But they don't speak.

They don't, they have thoughts. Oh, well, they, you know, they'll, yeah, like, I think, I think, like, the one cat, I said, you know, your cat likes, I think my, I think my girlfriend had, like, a ladder or something up in the house. It was like standing up. And I don't think the cat liked the ladder. It was too dark. And I said, you got to move the ladder.

That cat, it's too dark. It's making the cat. And then I think somebody, some dog liked the new bed spread. And she said, yeah, ever since she got it, the dog keeps sleeping on it. So I don't know. Just things like that. I was curious if you could talk a little bit more about the process of, like, what is the type of information? Is it easier in person for human readings?

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Some people, they need like, give me your birthday. Oh, yeah, yeah. I start with, yeah, I do, I don't like to get information, but I do like a name or I do like a birthday. And that will give me my basis. And then from that, I can gather information. And then I have people ask questions because people do have questions. Oh, I got questions. But I don't like to give the, I don't like the questions until after I can get, what I need to get. I recently had a reading. Someone recommended a person to me. And I just figured I'll give it a shot. And that was a very similar methodology. She kind of got upset with me when I

gave too much information, which like I don't know how to not give a lot of information. That's just kind of how I'm made. But yeah, that was kind of, that was sort of the structure of it. I didn't feel like it was terribly accurate, mostly because I just, I don't know. Anyway, go ahead, Jonathan, sorry. I mean, there's all different types of readers. I want Angela to read me. You like the color blue. Do you like the color blue? I do. I think you have a blue aura. I do like blue. I think you're blue. Jonathan, you're more of an inton. Well, tell me about, what color do you like, you like red or do you like red or you like yellow? I mean, if I had to pick, I mean, our show colors are yellow.

Or we have a yellow. Red is a tough one for me. I don't wear those colors. Then it's more like yellow. Yeah. Do you have, do you have, do you like the color purple, Jonathan? I do. And I like when I try to put mine in purple.

Oh, no. She's blue. She's blue. He does wear a lot of blue. Yeah. You're a thinker. You like information. You like to research.

You're very mental. You need to be stimulated all the time. You grasp ideas, concepts. You're quick. It's like the mind represents the air. So you're very quick. And that if you're bored, you get into trouble. So you always have to be doing something.

That's true. That's very, very true. But now with the purple, Now, that's kind of like a, it's a healing color. So I think do you like to make people feel, you care about people and things and you like to make people feel good? You like to make sure everybody's okay. Is that you? He's a healer, yeah.

He's a healer. Yeah, purple. That's the healer. Well, I think, yes, I think that's interesting. And in our mission, why we started these conversations was really as a combination of mental conversation, but also for emotion. connection and helping people sort of understand themselves, understand the world that they find themselves in, understand that there's more to their potential experience that they can access.

Oh, yeah, I've seen your podcast, and that's exactly what they do. I have a question. How young can you read a human? Do you read babies? Oh, yeah, I can read babies. What do babies tell you? Babies, if you, they can tell you why they're here. Why did you come into this earth?

I want to know that and I'm 49. Why did you come? They'll tell you. Babies will tell you why they're here. Do we know why Miami is here? She's here to cause trouble. I don't know. That's the best answer I've heard so far.

So wait, so when babies, when babies arrive, can you explain a little bit more about the structure of that? Is there reincarnation? Are these new souls like? Oh, I think there's not. they're saying that new souls are coming in. They're going to be smarter and brighter than us, which I think so, because we're supposed to keep getting better. Every time we come in, we're supposed to be getting better. But yes, and if you look at babies, sometimes they look like old souls. But there's a book. It's called Human Design. And they tell you about the future

of people and how their brains are going to be. They're going to be different than ours. Now, I can remember when I was very little when I started to walk. When I got up and I took my first steps, I can remember this going through my head like I said, oh, no, not this again, meaning here I am in this life again. And I can remember, I can remember this spark going through me. And I thought, oh, no, not this again. And then something went through me where I thought I can't get out of this. So I felt like maybe that was, I never knew what that meant, but years later, I think that meant that I didn't want to really come through in this life, but I knew I couldn't get out of it, so I had to come through. Because a psychologist told me a lot of babies in the womb will go back because they'll say, I don't think I want to do this. So they'll come back at another time to make up the karma or whatever.

So it's like they enter this physical reality just enough to have a sensory experience. of what it could be to be in physical form and then they didn't make a decision. And if they make the decision, you know, they may have to make it up. I mean, you know, they may have a karma with the mother or something. So if they go back but their strings attached, which I don't know if there are or not, and there may not be, there may be, then they have to come back and make it up at some time. But that's not for us to judge or say. That's just things that happen.

I mean, my first and earliest memory is in utero. And what did you remember? Tell me. We're talking about this. Like, it's a normal thing. Like, oh, my first memory was in utero. Okay. No, Angela's interested now. I tried to talk to you about this and you were like, that can't happen. There's no way. And then I sent a researcher off on trying to find all the scientific studies about people who have in utero memory. And I gave you a whole bunch of Google documents because I know you need to, you know, chew your mind around something. before you can really talk about it. But you know what? I'm not sure you read our documents or not. So I'm just going to talk to Angela about it.

All right. I want to hear what Angela says. I want to know what you remembered because I don't go ahead. Tell me. Tell me. This is exciting. So I don't remember when I first had this memory, but I can close my eyes. I can picture it and I can picture sort of light and I can picture, you know, being in the womb.

And I don't know how old I potentially was, you know, between, what I say, between three and four or five months of growth. And I have this distinct memory of my mother's nervous system, like what her frequency was. And I can have this feeling and sense of being just not separate from that, but knowing that that wasn't my frequency,

that that was her frequency. And if I, again, it's hard to be like, did I make that up? Is it a real memory? Is it a memory that I've formed with all the information? I've had as an older person. But if I kind of evaluate that through the logical lens, that same feeling I could say,

oh, is a pattern that I could recognize as how she operated throughout my childhood. Wow. Did she operate like that throughout your childhood? Same frequency. Same sort of intensity. She has, you know, many interesting and amazing qualities. But she had the level of sort of underlying stress. as she operated in the world, that it felt like as I became conscious of existing,

I was sort of aware then of that frequency around me and that that was going to be part of my experience in this form. How did you two meet? I'm just looking at Mime's face after that story. Well, we met in a very, we synchronized air quotes for people who are only listening. We met in a very synchronized and unusual way. We met at a children's birthday party. And that was 13 years ago.

We lost touch. And then he ended up needing a neuroscientist perspective on something. And I out of the blue, after six years, emailed him. So I didn't hear from her for six years. And for a few months, I had been working on a project and developing a lot of educational material about the connection between science and spirituality. It was Michael Singer's book, The Untethered Soul, that I was talking to a room of 20 people about, and I was saying it was one of the more accessible books on trying to understand how our minds influence us and how to start to separate ourselves from our thoughts. And that really

should be the foundation. I was like, who could help me describe this? And I was like, you know, the person, and I started talking about mine. I'm like, she is someone who is the only person of my life that I knew would not only understand what I was talking about, but would really be able to like make this accessible. And again, we hadn't spoken in six years. That was on a Friday that I had been doing all of that conversation, that talking for the entire week. And then on Saturday, I receive an email. And when I open that email, I literally fall off the chair. I was like, what is happening? And my side of it was that I thought it had only been like a year since we'd spoken. We had been, you know, emailing in our lives. Like, I didn't know it had been six years.

I literally thought it had just been a little bit of time. I had had vocal cord surgery because, as I describe it, God grounded me. And I knew that I couldn't speak for several months. And so I pulled some books off the shelf to, like, read during that time. And the book that I pulled off the shelf was a book Jonathan had given to me about a decade earlier that I had never read. And it was Peter Levine's book about trauma in the body. And I also, read Michael Singer's book. I don't even know how I got it. So I'm reading these books while recuperating from vocal cord surgery. I can't even speak. And I emailed this person thinking I had just spoken to him and it had been six years and that was what was happening on the other end.

She says, it's been a while. How are you? Happy New Year. Have you read the book, The Untethered Soul? I hope you're well. See you later. Maim. And I'm like, what has just happened? You have a very spiritual outlook, Jonathan. I think things are available to us before they exist, and there are multiple options, but how they exist and how they manifest is not determined, but the potential for them and their existence in an energetic form does exist, and we can tap into that and bring them into existence. And so, you know, my interest in sort of what I call, or for lack of a better word, really, non-material reality is how do we influence the material reality by understanding that there's all this other information available to us. Yeah, so you're more like a manifester.

Do you believe in the manifestation? I mean, I don't like that word, really, because I think it's been colloquialized and sort of taken and manipulating. and used to sell courses and all these things. But really, it's like if we think about what is the fundamental experience of being human, most of us have been trained that it's what we can touch, taste, hear, see, smell. And I would say, well, that is a fundamental shortchanging of what it actually is. And so to talk to people who have experienced more than that and used experiencing more, than that for practical benefit, finding people being employed by defense agencies and intelligence

agencies and are able to show us that, wait a second, it's not just about escaping our life into some sort of altered reality and its escape, that we can use these abilities to make positive change, to maybe increase the level of synchronicity that we have, to use our gut sense to stay away from situations that are going to embroil us in conflict or in draining our energy and not allowing us to flourish, to think that each one of us has a unique perspective and our unique path to accomplish something and contribute something here. So how do we utilize our skills and our intuitive ability to help us along that way instead of getting sidetracked? Yeah, that's what I encourage in my readings. I always tell people,

Use your creativity. You're creating. You know, it's usually when a person create, they don't have the, just create, you know, stay on the positive side. So, but that's, that's right. What, what is it like for you? What, what do you do now with your abilities? You do readings privately? Do you still work for any government or defense agency? No, I do not. I do not work for any government. I do work for a scientist in California. his name is Dr. Ed May. He was on, he does a lot of psychic testing. He gets funded. He gets funded from all over the world. And, you know, he has his little, he, he is a hardcore scientist trying to prove ESP. So, you know, he may want to prove precognition. So we'll do some, we do random testing, you know, where how many times can I, he looks for statistics.

So he'll put pictures in the envelope and I do it. And then he does his statistics and he writes his report for wherever he's writing it for. And Ed and I've had a long relationship since 1984. We had gone to Moscow together. We just got inducted into the NSA Spy Museum up at Fort Meade. And so we were able to collaborate on that to get the people the right information that they needed. And Ed and I right now are trying to get funded for a documentary because when we went to Russia,

when we went and in the book, ESP Wars, right here, ESP Wars, North and South, this was the book that they gave us the, what we want to show in our documentary was how the Soviets used their psychics and how the United States used their side. Now, we were very strict. We could only remote view because of what, because of the CIA messing up things before. So our contract was only to remote view.

We couldn't get into healing because that's the manipulation of energy. We couldn't get into P.K. like bending the spoons. We weren't allowed to do any of that. Now, whether we did it on the side was our business. But I can remember one remote viewer brought a deprivation tank into the unit to use in the, remote viewing building and that they were they were asked to take it out because it could have affected our mental state. But anyway, the Soviets didn't care. They had their healers traveled with their presidents, Gorbachev, Brezhnev. They did more of the energy. It was just

different. And they would bring, they would bring their psychics right up to the battle. where, you know, they put the psychics where we were, like, we don't need to be. They felt that they were getting better information if they brought the psychics right up to the problem where we didn't. We felt we didn't have to, but then they didn't, but we weren't allowed to do any healing or anything. So it was very different on how they were raised and how we were raised. So we're trying to do a documentary on that. We're, I just got, I just wrote a. which I wrote a children's book in 2004 about an elephant who likes to have tea parties with children,

but he can't because he's so big. And I wrote some story. It's just a story. They're not everybody. When I say I write children's stories, they think they're spiritual like angels, but they're not. They're just like dogs. So I'm getting that into animation. I'm working with a guy in Spain who's going to try to get me some funding.

How does healing work? in terms of, like, I understand it's one thing to sort of be in touch with kind of other perceptual abilities. But what is this component that you're saying, for example, you were not allowed to do because it's a manipulation of energy? I think that when you heal people, when Christ walked the earth and he healed people, he manipulated the atoms. What he was doing was he's changing the atoms. And I think that that's what healers do. I think whenever you go to a healer, whether it's Reiki or whatever, I think they're manipulating the atoms. And when somebody goes through a healing, if somebody's sick and they want to get well,

a lot of times they'll get worse before they get better. And I don't know why that is. It's almost like you have to destroy before you can restructure or bring it up. Now, I don't know exactly how healing works, but I have felt energy. I've had people do Reiki or whatever. I don't know. Do you understand healing, Jonathan? It's kind of the same. My background, I started practicing Reiki when I was 17 and started learning about somatic experience, the idea that we have emotions that can be trapped or stuck in the body in some way. And sort of the brain and the physiological system below the neck are mirrored systems.

but when someone is doing a remote healing or a hands-on healing, and the way I was taught was always hands directly on the body, what you're doing, and I think would be parallel to how you get remote information when you're remote viewing is you clear the mind and just become an open conduit for that information. And so in this case, instead of information, you're asking for an influx of energy to move through

that you into the person and the person has the ability to know what to do with it. I'm not deciding. I'm using guides and cues and sort of my body can mirror or I can hear, oh, move a little this way and you begin to develop an intuition. But it's really, there's all this energy around that is available and this person needs someone else to help supercharge their own natural mechanisms by which they can go through whatever process. And it is. It's true that often someone will get worse before they get better and then they think, wait, it's not working. But there's something about breaking the system down that's holding them in place, keeping them in a dysfunctional environment that is required before they build that net new system.

Yeah, that's right. And you're right. It comes through them. It comes through the healer and they know what to do with it. Yeah, that's, and I've taken years ago, I've taken like things on healing. I used to do it on my animal. You put your hands on and kind of feel where the energies are and kind of straighten them out.

It's actually, animals are a fantastic learning tool. Number one, because they're around. They have nowhere else to be. And two, they have much faster response times because they're so much smaller. And you can see, oh, they'll get up and shake and sort of tell you when they're done. And the other thing is that they'll kind of open, too, to you.

So if, like, you have your hands on your animal, It's a great way to, number one, no one's going to judge you. You don't think something might be strange. And then you can just ask and say, like, I would like to, you know, I clear myself and I want to receive healing energy for this animal's highest good. And the animal will know what to do with it. And you can use the animal's name. And then see, observe and just sort of be quiet and see how the animal moves and shifts.

It may actually move underneath your hand in a way, in a place where it needs that help. I wonder, before we let you go, Angela, I wonder if you could sort of address, you know, there's so many people in the world, and many of them are probably listening or watching us right now. There's so many people who have always felt that there's something else. And in many cases, they've known, you know, something that they can't prove or they've intuitively understood something about our purpose here or the presence of guides or. or forces in the universe. And those people, by and large, do not really get the approval of any structured organization. And I wonder if you, as someone who, if you had never, you know, if you hadn't gotten that degree in political science, if you hadn't gone to work for the government, worked for a defense system, you know, if you hadn't taken that path, you would have still had the abilities that you had.

And also, you wouldn't have had the appreciation or the appreciation or the defense system. confirmation that, to be honest, that you weren't crazy. And I wonder if you could speak to people from a perspective of someone who got the lived experience of being accepted and validated as powerful and wise in ways that our culture does not even know how to name. What would you say to those people? Well, I always tell people like if they feel like they have the ability or something happened. It's just, and it bothers them. I tell them, go start doing some research. Or, you know, if you, or go someplace. There's so many metaphysical bookstores. There's so many metaphysical stores where you can walk in and get a reading. There's, or there's so many

healing classes, or there's people have meditation classes. It's like, get yourself somewhere immediately where you can get the help that you need, and it doesn't have to be reading a book, but go somewhere immediately where somebody can tell you this is what's going on with you. Because I do know that when I did start my automatic writing at 29 or 30 years old, there was a metaphysical institute in Arlington, in Alexandria, Virginia that I went to about a month after that. So I'm like, go out and get, you know, find out what happens. You're not, crazy. Now, if you continue, if you wish to continue

to be on this path, then, you know, study it. There's so many things on the internet now. If you choose not to, if you choose not to explore it, that's your right too. But if you do choose to explore it, you know, you just have to realize that you

can't talk to everybody about it. I'm, you know, I'm Italian. I come from a large family in Pennsylvania. I go to weddings. I go to funerals. I go to family reunions. We don't talk about my abilities because some people just don't and that you know you have to get we don't talk about what I did or what I do because some people it just it bothers people I mean I went out the other day to dinner with friends I went my girlfriend works at she's a fundraiser for Congress one man

I met he used to that worked for the he was a congressional aid that helped the program get money and they were there with the with a friend with the guy and he the guy knew what I did did and he just had such distaste. He just was like, he had disdain for what I did. So I just knew you just don't talk about it. But it should not stop you. It should not stop you. If you keep doing it and you keep searching, it shouldn't stop you.

I love that message. I think it's so powerful in that, especially if you are going through this and you don't have that support, it can be very isolating because the structures and systems of how you've lived your life are going to change and you need to rebuild it in a way that is reflective of what you're going through now and this new reality you're living. And you need this support because actually once I started the automatic group writing at 29 30 31, my whole life changed. I mean friends kind of I didn't have just everything changes. And if in that and if somebody wants to go through that, just do it for and forget about everything. You have to have you have to have. You have to

have courage and you have to have thick skin. And I, and, you know, I don't know. I mean, sometimes what I went through, I think I just didn't know any better. I think I went through it because I wasn't, I just didn't know any better. I thought this is the way it was or this is the way it should be. I never questioned. But now when I look back, I'm like, my God, why did I even go through all, some of the crap I went through? People go, you were, you had courage, courage. I was stupid. I didn't know what I was doing. And that's who works for the greatest defense industry in the country. You know, if you were given a hard time, why didn't you quit?

I couldn't have quit because I had no, I couldn't go back to what I was doing. They knew why I left. I had no place to go. I mean, yeah, but it does take courage. And believe me, my feelings of, you know, my feelings. were hurt. You feel like, you know, you feel like you don't belong because you're a psychic. So then you go work with psychics. And then you don't belong there because they don't, because they're male military and you do channeling. So then I didn't belong there. I mean, so yes, there were times.

I was miserable, lonely, depressed. But I don't know why. I just, things are good in my life right now. That's why I think I'm happy today. But yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I do give, I teach classes. I give readings. The psychic work keeps me very busy. And I am kind of excited to kind of get into the creative, the creative world because I think it's the best. I used to do a little bit of acting when I was really young. But, you know, it's, I mean, you love it.

Don't you like it? Yeah. I mean, it's a different kind of intuition. It's funny. People have asked me that, you know, when you're playing a character, when you're intuiting what this character would say, how they'd act, you know. and there's rarely, you know, for most of us, you know, who do this, like there's rarely a lot of thought that goes into it. It's absolutely, it's an intuitive feeling.

I just, I know how to speak as this person, right? So that's something I can do with fluidity as an actor, but it's much easier, you know, for me to live in a TV box, as Jonathan says, than in real life. Well, my perspective is that that character exists in some form of consciousness that you are adopting and you're calling into yourself. so in some ways it's the ultimate form of channeling. You're channeling a whole other human. Yeah, you're channeling. Yeah, and you've had some amazing. I mean, you've had some good roles.

You've had some good work. I mean, look, steady work in this industry is very hard to come by. Angela Ford, it's really been so incredible to talk to you. And, I mean, you've opened up an entire other dimension of an understanding of this kind of, not just work, but these kind of abilities. We're so, so lucky that we got to speak with you. Thank you. Thank you both. I really appreciate it. I had a good time. Thank you. Angela talks about how this bothers people, that it really bothers people. There's certain people she can't talk to about this. It bothers people because it's effing disturbing to think that it's like a totally normal, acceptable thing that I need to believe that people have extrasensory perception and can remote view. It bothers me. I want to believe it.

I respect her. I believe this woman, but it bothers me. Yeah, it bothers people. It's surprising to me that it bothers you when, like, I look at the slate of guests we've had. And sometimes it's like, you respond and you're like, yes, that makes sense because this person and that research and I totally understand. And then sometimes it's like we're in the very first podcast we've ever done. No, I don't appreciate that. And you're like, you're like, what do you?

What do you mean? Non-local consciousness? No, no, no, no. Hold on one second. It's not like I don't remember. And I believe you sent me a private message when she was talking about how she can read the energy of pets. And you're like, you know this.

Why are you acting? Like, it's going to be surprising to me every single time someone tells me that they can read the energy of a pet. Every time I'm going to be like, what? You sent me the book from Rupert Sheldrake about pets who know when their owners are coming home. Maybe that was ironic. Okay, so tell me what you're surprised about and I'll tell you why you shouldn't be surprised. You know what it means?

No. It means that all the things that you're hiding from yourself, from other people, actually exist in this collection of ones and zeros around you in the world and that people can see through the facade that each one of us carries around. This makes you sleep well at night? Yes, because it means. There's two kinds of people. There's people for whom that information makes them sleep well at night.

And there's people like me for whom that information is bothersome. What are you afraid is going to get out? I'm going to go to an Italian wedding in Western Pennsylvania. And I'm going to be like, you tell her, you tell Angela, give it to her. What are you afraid is going to get out about you? That you don't want your aura red. You're blue? No.

You know what? She knew I have a PhD in neuroscience. A lot of those things could be said about a lot of people who have PhDs in neuroscience. And she didn't know, and I know this wasn't a formal reading, but I'm a very complicated person. I'm a very complex person. What I'm saying is there's an entire other side. Like, I am a deep lover of, like, liturgy, the Old Testament.

Like, I weep when I read Psalms. Like, I believe in, like, no, but she didn't really dive deep. Those parts of me also exist. Two things struck me. Number one. Just two. Did you consider that the place we met, which was an arts and crafts place, is actually one of the medicines that you as a creative person, we talk about you doing art and how calming that is.

And if we have a throwback to the Martha Beck episode where she talks about being creative, that we did an exercise in that episode where she, I forget what she did, but she basically made us be creative. And she tested our anxiety before and after. She was like, before this exercise, she got us to check in from a scale of one to 10. and it was like, how anxious are you? And you gave a number. And then we did the creative exercise,

and you can't be anxious while you're being creative. Maybe that was a sign about creativity and the role of creativity in our lives. If this were an episode of Jeopardy, what I would say is, what is Jonathan's understanding of romance? And that would be his answer. Yes, that's right. The next thing I thought about,

was she talked about training the subconscious to turn on the internal television and receive information about what your day might be like, positive visualization. We actually just talked about this with Dan Harris on our substack live. We had this whole conversation about practically using pre-visualization and practicing to overcome, and he's using it to overcome his claustrophobia. Also, that was a fantastically interesting psychological, I don't know, I don't even know what to call it, that he went in this psychological exploration

of where that claustrophobia was coming from. But the point I'm trying to make is that he used and uses this pre-visualization. So my question, when she was talking about that, is that you're training the subconscious as a neuroscientist. What is the subconscious doing on a regular basis and how are you changing it to be able to basically function outside of linear time to give conscious information to someone? That's a great question.

And what I'm interested in is... Your sides are being the question? Yeah. That's what I hear. No, I think the question is, I think a... You know, a satellite question is, what is it about the human experience that some people tap into this completely, like, naturally? It just happens to them. Then there's people like Thomas Campbell who it happens to accidentally as they start to sort of like poke around and then like they can't unsee it.

And then there's other people. And I know many of these people, you know, there are people for whom they are not open. to understanding this, and they're also not able to or open to experiencing it. Elizabeth Crone is a great example of someone who was going about her life, do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do-do, got struck by lightning and was given a new consciousness because she was struck by lightning and had a near-death experience. But it changed her entire, like that was, her book was called Changed in a Flash.

But for most of us who don't already believe and who don't have that like, I just believe, and I don't need proof and it doesn't matter. Like, many of us may not access that. And you know what? We need those people. Like, I don't know. Like, did Stephen Hawking have a deep understanding of ESP? Probably not.

Like, I don't think that was his jam. You know, maybe it was. But, like, people like Albert Einstein, they kind of kept their God on the side while they calculated, you know, the theory of relativity. Yes. And I think there's an enormous amount of suffering and people come to this often from a place where living just a material life hits a dead end for them.

So some people are not open to it and then have a profound experience. Some people have a near-death experience and then get this information. I'm not saying that we should or shouldn't, but if something isn't working in your life, if you feel curious, if you feel stuck, if you want more intuition, more guidance, more synchronicity, if you want a larger experience of connecting to something greater than yourself. And, you know, I'm not saying that this is the perfect solution, but there is a path and there are paths to change the experience of only seeing the world from a very material and sort of almost not simplistic,

but it's a singular lens. I really hope that people got as much out of this episode as I did, as Jonathan did. And, you know, as I said, I think this is one of the most legitimate and validating cases and examples of the limitless possibility of human potential. If you watch the Teresa Caputo episode or the Suzanne Giesman episode, you might be able to sort of wave it off and be like, that's someone having a very special experience. But I'm sorry, the government. does a lot of things I don't agree with. This is a legitimate program that is used all over the world for us to understand things

and have access to things that the unconscious and subconscious can have access to. Sorry, folks. And if you want to take that in utero, that's a different conversation. But there's a tremendous amount here that cannot be ignored. We did it. So from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time. Breakdown, she's going to break it down for you.

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