Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Response to QUIET ON SET: THE DARK SIDE OF KIDS TV

Episode Date: April 16, 2024

EXCLUSIVE REACTIONS: Mayim, Jenna von Oy, and Christy Carlson Romano dive deep into the explosive QUIET ON SET documentary, from the heartbreaking abuse exposed by some of their peers, to their own firsthand accounts of the pressures they faced as child actors.   Mayim, Christy, and Jenna reflect on how the model for kids’ tv made child actors particularly vulnerable, the dangers of children working in the high pressure entertainment industry, the trauma-bonding nature watching the doc has had for their peer community, whether the system can truly be reformed, and ways to effectively pivot the conversation from sensationalistic gossip to promoting real change in the industry.   Christy reveals why she has currently chosen NOT to watch the documentary, breaks down her reservations about the exploitative nature of "trauma tourists," and explains more about the important advocacy work organizations like the Looking Ahead program (@alifeinthearts) are doing to connect child actors and their families with essential resources.   THEY ALSO DISCUSS:  - The dangers of dangling fame in front of child actors - The role parents have to play, even if a studio tries to remove them - The importance of teaching children to use their voices - The crucial need for female representation and trauma-informed care in the entertainment industry   This episode is a must-listen, from revealing the dark side of how the entertainment millions love was actually made, to the exploration of what we can all do to ensure the safety of children everywhere.    Learn more about the Looking Ahead program: http://give.actorsfund.org/site/Calendar?id=101701&view=Detail Learn more about the Coogan Law: https://www.sagaftra.org/membership-benefits/young-performers/coogan-law BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I'll be honest, I didn't really know what it was about. And what got me was just a couple words in the description, you know, saying like, oh, what was really happening on, you know, behind the scenes on sets. And like, I was like, oh, I was a child actor. I'm curious to see what was going on. Never did I ever think I was going to encounter anything like what I encountered. You know, you're watching what the entire culture was like. This is not what happened because Nickelodeon, this, that.

Of course it touched me. personally. Of course it did. But what it also reminded me of is how far we had to come to get to a place where people like Christy get to advocate and we know what she means when she says, the mental health of children on sets matters and there are things that we can do to make sure that there are no exceptions. You don't get to push that child. We've all grown up around enough kids that you know when the kid is in pain and they look to the mother and the mother says, you're fine. because that's what not only our industry requires, that's what our culture has required.

I've chosen not to speak about this with anybody, including ID who originally came to me looking to see if I'd be interested in a dock like this. The echo chambers to me are not helpful, and these are people that don't belong to our community. These are outsiders. You know, maybe if they knew where to, you've put money towards to fix a problem they would,

but these are trauma tourists. You know, my first reaction was, like, where was I when all of this happened? It just didn't feel like the same world that I was familiar with. All of the stories are heartbreaking. It dug a very deep hole in my heart to hear about people that I know

who supported someone who, You know, they heard a confession from. I would imagine that there are a lot of people who ended up in this documentary who have secondary trauma that they are only just beginning to touch the surface of processing. The victims of all of this, it's tragic. That is a lifetime of processing. It's a lifetime of working through trauma and self-confidence issues and all of the things that come from,

all of that. And I'm sure, I mean, I think just by watching the documentary, being in the business or out of the business, anyone who watches it to a certain extent has to process that trauma. Every child who managed to get in through that front door had to say yes to everything. Young performers are compliant children at the heart of it.

They're people pleasers. And I think that they're the perfect landscape to be vulnerable, right? I think we're all kind of living with a little bit of survivors guilt. That could have been any one of us. And we all kind of need to grieve together, I think, at this point, and sort of come together to try to figure out what now. I trust you guys. You're a part of my community, and this is a space for me. Really, this is the only time I want to talk about this. And then I just want to try to heal and advocate in a private capacity. I've made a choice for several reasons to out of choosing to watch that imagery.

I know a lot of the details. I know a lot of the folks involved. I've been living this on the sort of advocacy side of things gently. One of the reasons I decided not to watch the doc was because I felt like there's no hope sort of being inserted into the narrative. I'm unsure if there is a way to have hope

when the system is designed to gain the maximum to the maximum compliance from children who are performers for the maximum profit. It's my and biolics breakdown. She's gonna break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. So now she's gonna break down, so break it down. Hi, I'm I am Biolik.

And I'm Jonathan Cohen. And welcome to our breakdown. It's the place we break things down, so you don't have to. This episode is a response, a reaction to the documentary, quiet on set. Very difficult documentary to watch brings up a lot of issues. And, you know, my, tell us a little bit about what happened for you when you watched it. I watch a lot of documentaries. And, you know, this one discusses an era of television history that, that is incredibly problematic, not just because of

the mistreatment of women, the inappropriateness with which content was handled regarding children and a particular children's sexuality by certain environments at Nickelodeon, certain producers in particular are dealt with. But there's a very specific

case that has made news about an individual who chose to speak out in this documentary about the prolonged sexual abuse and rape that he experienced. At the hands of someone who was a trusted member of the crew, who also actively worked to isolate this child

from the parent who was protecting him, who knew that something was wrong. And what happened was many people in the industry defended this man, possibly without knowing that there was a taped confession. The documentary discusses a time in history where children could actively and openly be accused of tempting someone to rape them.

And it is so astounding and it is so blatant, the egregiousness with which this was handled, the repeated hiring of individuals besides this one individual, several individuals who had been convicted of pedophilia and of sexual acts with minors, who were still given jobs that had allowed them access to children. And the entire climate of that time was so astounding that I literally thought, there's no way to talk about this without it seeming like we're just dredging up gossip.

But what we've decided to do is have a conversation with two very intelligent and respected women from the industry. Jenna Von Oye, who played six on Blossom, who I grew up with, who now lives in Nashville and has kind of been out of the industry, but has an incredibly astute and keen perspective about this. And Christy Carlson Romano, an Emmy-nominated actress, entrepreneur, also a wonderful content creator. She's best known for her roles in Disney's Composible, even Stevens and Cadet Kelly. She was the first person to star in three Disney Channel project simultaneously.

So, you know, she started acting at six, but was part of, you know, what many of us kind of group, as similar to the Nickelodeon machine of, like, churning out these amazing shows. shows that were like watched by tweens and teens. So, um, Christy also does incredible advocacy, um, in this arena with an organization called The Looking Ahead Program. And so Christy, Jenna and I are going to go where no three women have gone before. We're going to talk about why watch this documentary, why not watch it, what it brought up. What does it look like to process as child

actors and as humans the trauma that we've now all been experienced. supposed to with this documentary. And is there any hope for understanding children's content, how to keep children safe, and also how to keep the adults safe who are trying to keep children safe? Jonathan, this episode had some technical difficulties. There was a storm in one of the locations that kept causing video slash audio one at a time, both to drop out. So people might hear us stitching pieces together. So please enjoy the episode. And it's such a pleasure to welcome Christy Carlson Romano and Jenna Von Nevanoi to the breakdown. Get down.

Hi. Hi, everybody. What's up? Hi, Christy. And hello, Jenna. And welcome. Welcome to our little breakdown here. I really appreciate both of you being here.

You know, the first thing I did when I watched, quiet on set, was a texted Jenna. And, you know, Jenna and I grew up together, literally. Grew up on television together. But that means that we grew up together personally. And, you know, she was the first person that I kind of wanted to talk to about it. And so many people were talking about it in ways that I don't appreciate, you know, on social media and, like, expanding out the conversation and, like, having it mean things that it doesn't. But Jonathan and I really felt like there was a meaningful conversation to have that we wanted to have with both of you. and really grateful that we can, you know, have this conversation.

My goal is really to only add something to the conversation that can be helpful or interesting or instructive and not simply to recycle allegations or to, you know, create anything relating to gossip. So I just want to be clear that, you know, Christy, you literally have been in this. space as an advocate, you know, as part of the work that you've chosen to do, as part of your adult identity. And so just really appreciate us being able to talk. Let's first start with

just some basics. So Jenna, when I texted you, you had not watched the documentary. Had you heard about it? Yes, I had definitely heard about it. It was on sort of my short list of things to watch in the very near future that I hadn't gotten to yet because clearly with two children, not something that I am going to watch while they're awake. So I hadn't gotten to it yet. And as soon as I received the text from you, it happened to be on a weekend where my children were elsewhere. And I was like, all right, this is the time.

And so I was like, okay, I'm going to binge watch this. And I did. And then I, of course, promptly a few hours later, texted you back and was like, okay, wow, this was brutal. and then and thus began our sort of little flow of conversation. I want to just tee up a little bit about this documentary. When Jonathan and I clicked on it, I'll be honest, I didn't really know what it was about.

And what got me was just a couple words in the description, you know, saying like, oh, what was really happening on, you know, behind the scenes on sets? And like, I was like, oh, I was a child actor. I'm curious to see what was going on. Never did I ever think I was going to encounter any. like what I encountered. And, you know, for those of you who haven't seen the documentary, I'll give a, you know,

kind of a brief thumbnail. It's talking about the culture of Nickelodeon television at a critical time, you know, in Nickelodeon's history. Dan Schneider, who I knew as the guy from Head of the Class. I didn't even know that he was one of the main, you know, writers, executive producers and creators of children's programming after Head of the Class at Nickelodeon. And there's a lot of time dedicated to the kind of culture that he created. You know, by all accounts, many people report that he was not a kind person to work for.

And unfortunately, many showrunners are often not, and especially at that time, are not good people to work for or with. There was a lot of things that happened that were above and beyond what I think anyone would deem acceptable. he did make some statements about it and those are presented throughout the documentary. But what the documentary also explores is an insinuation and I can't say if it's true. It's not for me to say and I also don't know if it was for the documentarians to say that an environment was created with a lot of sexual jokes, comments, inappropriate treatment of writers, of crew and also inappropriate presentation of information. and scripts to children that created an environment where it is sort of assumed that pedophilia

thrived in other aspects of this aspect of the industry. In one case, there was a man who ended up being convicted for pursuing children outside of the set. They also mentioned other cases, and there was also a notion which reminded me shockingly of what the Catholic Church experience, where people were cycled through while knowing that they had inappropriate relationships with children and had pursued them in romantic, sexual, and intimate ways. And the documentary does choose to focus on what's the accountability now? You know, what can Nickelodeon do now when we know that reports were made, claims were filed, and these people were still allowed to have access to children? That's one component of the documentary. Another component of the documentary is dedicated

to a particular case of an employee who worked intimately with children, who ended up inserting himself between children and their parents in terms of trust and authority. And there is a taped confession of this individual admitting to repeatedly sexually abusing and raping a child over an extended period of time. And the child did not even know how to report it. And it's actually a really, really miraculous description. This individual chooses to speak up as an adult. And it was a trusted adult, the parent of a girlfriend of his,

who said, I can tell something is wrong and we're going to report it. And it's an unbelievable turn of events. But what the documentary also then has to focus on is that many people either did not know about the taped confession, did not believe the tape confession, and many prominent people in our industry

showed up in court in support of this individual who we now know perpetrated horrendous crimes upon this individual and others. And so, you know, the documentary kind of runs the full gamut. And honestly, any one of those things would have been enough to kind of put me over the top. When I first mentioned this documentary to you, you know, you had heard a bit about it

because kind of little bits have been leaked. But my hunch when I heard how you, you responded was that you had no idea what you were walking into. Oh, no, not at all. It was as if I had read the chapter titles and had no idea what the content was. It was truly a shock to the system to start. And really, the beginning of watching it, it sort of, it's not that it eases into anything, there's nothing to ease into.

But it does start out with sort of a gradual, a gradual move into some of the bigger issues at hand. And some of the initial things really didn't sound so far off from things that I heard about on other sets during our time. Look, I hate to admit it, women being berated in the writer's room is something that was just like, I'm sorry, it was considered, I mean, I hate to say it,

it was considered like par for the course. I will say I do not believe that happened in our writer's room. I don't believe it did either, but we also weren't present. We weren't present, and there were things that we all thought were okay to even joke about, which now we'd be mortified. Absolutely, absolutely true.

You know, and really as children, we only had a certain level of understanding of what was going on around us anyway. Again, not being privy to what was going on in the writer's room, not really being there for network sessions. I mean, you now as a very experienced producer and having been privy to everything that goes on both in front of the camera and behind it, I'm sure have a much better understanding of what goes on. But at that time, we were only in front of the camera. And so we only, and we were in our school rooms. And we were, you know, there was an aspect of innocence that surrounded all of it for me, at least.

I mean, and I think for you, too. Yeah, and I think that was one of the most devastating parts of this. And I think Christy has spoken to this as well. to have been spared that kind of trauma and to know that it was going on and it was going on right under our noses. And not only was it going on, it was going on with people then being hired on

on other shows after being convicted. Like this was so much a part of an acceptable way to run a business. It's that felt like the most devastating thing and it wasn't just happening at Nickelodeon. Right. that it was ingrained in our industry during that time. And our culture.

Yeah, in our culture. And our culture. My Ambialx breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine. Drink more water. There's no real data.

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anything else out there. Make this the year you stop guessing about your health with superpower. Superpower. Not only did Superpower reduce their price to just $199, but for a limited time, our listeners get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My and Biala's Breakdown to help support the show. I think that's actually a really interesting place to start because the notion of how much we think we know, right, because of a level of familiarity, lends itself to, well, in many cases,

a lot of misunderstandings, first of all. And I think the fact that that can happen even on a positive level, meaning I feel close to these other child actors because I'm one too, right? And I must have access to some part of them or I feel like I intuitively know something about them. I think that's actually, you know, kind of,

it's kind of at the crux of what I think this documentary is bringing up for people in terms of what do we know, what do we think we know, what are we allowed to know, and then what happens when we know something and get it wrong, right? Meaning as a society or, you know, even as individuals. I do want to ask, you have chosen not to see the documentary. Is that correct? Currently, I think that it's extremely triggering. I've made a choice for several reasons to opt out of choosing to watch that imagery. I know a lot of the details.

I know a lot of the folks involved. I've been living this on the sort of advocacy side of things gently, I will say gently, because I've actually been opening up about my own experiences, not in the survivor space. You know what I'm saying? Because this is specifically handling that very important space of assault. However, in terms of what I've brought to the conversation, it's been a more, it's been a 360 approach, right, with the mental health. And that's always attracted me to your content because you went out and got your education and lived your life and have so much to bring to the table about what it means to be outside of the industry.

Well, and I mean, it's kind of like every time you open your mouth, right, you're hitting on such an important part of this story. and I think what it means to people. I think maybe it would be helpful if you would kind of remind people the ages that you were, you know, when you were living in a world not dissimilar from the world of Nickelodeon, for example, meaning you were working in a space

that fostered young talent and that really catered to a beautiful exploration of what comedy can be like when it really is made for children, right? Yeah, I think that the concept of synergy in children's programming and the terminology of, like, it's kind of like the, what was it, the Mickey Mouse Club, where they had, you know,

Annette Funicello. And so there was this sort of resurgence over at the channel when they started to make content created specifically for the tween demographic, which was, you know, anywhere from 8 to 13. when they would eventually end up pipelining them to freeform. But it's called the golden era of Disney, which I find really ironic in the wake of everything else

that's going on right now at another network. But it is really interesting that the gas pedal was pushed so hard and so fast for several years during this quote-unquote golden era for multiple networks, not just Disney. So it was like every child who managed to get in through that front door, had to say yes to everything, everything, every opportunity, every contact, every moment that they would want to be sort of on the front line of the handful

of people that were sort of chosen to be the it kids of that time. Why? Why did you have to say yes to everything? That's a very good question. And of course, you know, I think I have a lot to work through because I think young performers are compliant children at the heart of it. They're people-pleasers. And I think that they do make it sort of, they're the perfect landscape for, to be vulnerable, right? Like for somebody to come in and sort of, there's this, what's that movie Zoolander,

where they're like, he's a model and he's, quote, unquote, dumb. And if you say dance like a monkey, he'll do it. and they flashed to him literally dancing like a monkey and them throwing bananas at his face. So there's pockets of that compliance effect. And I wasn't specifically speaking to you. I'm asking especially as someone who is actively advocating in this space and has been for quite some time,

and I have an answer to this, which I'm happy to offer as well. I guess the kind of like pull back a little bit question is what are we asking of children when we're placing them in this situation? Okay, so let's break that down, right? So the we of it is incredibly important. It's almost like the hard stop of the sentence. Who is we? Is we the union?

Is we the stage parent? Is we the showrunner? Is we the studio? And so truly that is what I think the doc is bringing it to light, is that there is an ecosystem that is heavily flawed and undermatured for us to truly understand from a philosophical side, from so many different ways that could create space for progress. And it's one of the reasons I decided not to watch the doc was because I felt like

there's no hope sort of being inserted into the narrative. And again, you can tell me if I'm wrong, Myam, and I hope I am. Yeah, okay. So I'm going to go ahead and like give you sort of my hot take.

My hot take was, you know, if we're sort of going to deconstruct what triggering means, you know, there is a warning that, you know, there are discussions that are quite

And, you know, that's something that, you know, everyone has to choose no matter what documentary you're watching these days, you know. But, you know, my personal feeling was I think that this information likely could have and maybe should have been communicated in a more concise fashion. I do feel that there was a serialized nature of it that did feel like it was, you know, playing a bit to what a lot of documentaries are playing. playing to, which is if we, you know, stretch this information out and, you know, kind of create as much as we can, it will get a lot of ratings. So, you know, in terms of the, there are two cases that are sort of presented in this documentary, which Jonathan and I also had some conflict about, because one is about Dan Schneider and about what was happening with his behavior. And then the other was about what happened with a very, very significant

you know, case of abuse and rape of a child. And the two are presented in a way that kind of rocks your brain because, you know, if the insinuation is one thing leads to another, that's actually not necessarily true. And I also don't know if it's helpful. You know, for me, the most powerful part, you know, of this entire experience and what it brought up and the reason that I reached out to Jenna and the reason that I reached out to you is because I'm unsure if there is a way to have hope

when the system is designed to gain the maximum compliance from children who are performers for the maximum profit. Meaning, the documentary deals with, besides the allegations, the recorded confession, which was then

refuted by many, many people that many of us know in the industry. Besides that, we have this issue of what kind of trust are we putting in a production company? What kind of trust are parents putting in the union, the system? And, you know, the kind of stories that we're talking about are things you and I experienced, or the things that Jenna and I experienced. There will always be someone saying, we don't need to listen to this overtime rule. We've almost got it.

Or you may be physically uncomfortable in that outfit, in that scene. We may be asking you to eat food that's making you sick, but we need two more takes. Like that's what happens. That's the pressurized system that we're operating in. And, you know, when we think about the fact that children's money that they earned wasn't even protected until the Jackie Coogan laws, right? You know, is this the next level of examining what pressure looks like? So I wonder if you can speak a little bit, you know, to what does that pressure feel like on a personal level?

And what can we do to try and understand an industry that is geared towards getting, again, maximum work and maximum compliance from children and parents who want that for their children. Such, see how even in the question, I hear you on every level and it's such a complex thing, right? There's just the way that I have come to understand how we can move through this rather than cancel it all, throw it all out, which now you and I know will not happen until they create a function of AI that can replace minors on set, there will continue to be, and even in the non-union space, all sorts of child laborers who are also performers. So again, I look at this

actually as labor, as a child labor issue, and that there is a union where the child laborers pay the same amount to be covered by, you know, the protections that are not. an adult would have with an intimacy coordinator on set. And if there's guns on set or if there's animals on set, all of those things are called out. At one point, I do work with the Looking Ahead program, which is a part of the Actors Fund. It's only 50% funded by SAG, which is, I think, part of it's, they need more. They're underfunded, right? I had mentioned to one of the producers in the advisory committee, I said, why don't we have all of the ADs say, minors on set? Like we have a gun when they say, you know, they say guns on set and they say alligator on set or whatever it is.

To phrase it from a top down scenario to understand that, yes, they're laborers, but their child laborers. There is a difference. So I find, I do truly feel this may be, this may incite a little bit of backlash, but I do think they're being underserviced as union workers personally. Can you say more? I think that, you know, looking ahead program is something that's near and dear to my heart more and more. And the less, you know, I've chosen not to speak about this with anybody, including ID, who originally came to me looking to see if I'd be interested in a doc like this. I don't know if it was this doc, but I was approached when I first started advocating three years ago for my own YouTube channel with my own experiences that I've, I did in different and separate episodes, so to speak.

I started to be approached by many, you know, reality show type producers. And they were like, hey, how do we do this? And I would combat them with saying, hey, guys, the only way I would do this is if we talk about how do we fix it. Christy, why didn't you want to speak about this? Alison Stoner, who is a fantastic advocate in this space, has really impinged upon me the importance of understanding trauma porn. And something that I think Mayam had mentioned before

was that I actually have a degree from Columbia in film. And we know that the art of montage and the collision of images is going to incite a certain kind of emotion. That is what documentary filmmaking and social movements is meant to do. And so we are so manipulated by media and we have so many, you know, little cutdowns of misinformation and things being thrown,

that the echo chambers, to me, are not helpful. And these are people that don't belong to our community. These are outsiders. And maybe they, you know, maybe if they knew where to, you know, put money towards to fix a problem, they would. But, again, a lot of this has been perceived in a way that's, it's outside baseball. It's not inside baseball. it's outside baseball.

These are trauma tourists. You know, I think it's so easy to quickly devolve in this situation to talking about the, to talking about things that we weren't directly privy to, which is of no interest to me whatsoever. To, you know, I think you mentioned this before, just to not gossip about it, to not, certainly not to, to,

shame anyone or victim blame. You know, that's the last thing that I would want to do. So I think the only thing I can do is look at it from the angle of the perspective of comparison, which is such a weird thing to say. But, you know, having grown up during that time, or at least a portion of that time when all of that was going down, I think I really only have to go on my own experience. That's all I can really speak to. You know, and so it's really having it being a mother to two daughters.

There are so many sickening aspects of it. There are so many things that have thankfully begun to change. There's so much more that needs to change within the industry. You mentioned a moment ago, like what can we do to sort of solve the problem? I don't, you know, I'm sure that's not an easy overnight answer by any stretch of the imagination. but I think about things like the Jackie Coogan Law, which many, many years ago began protecting children from having money taken from them,

and it's sort of, you know, and siphoned off into other areas of, you know, other accounts that didn't belong to them and wouldn't serve them down the road. And I wonder if, you know, there aren't ways for us to, obviously it's not to sort of like jump to a different subject, but teachers have an obligation, right, to report anything that they see. It is a moral obligation,

is an ethical obligation to report anything that they witness that may, may, fall into the category of emotional, physical abuse within the school system. And I think that there is really a moral obligation for all of us where that's concerned. You know, I'm, you and I,

Miami had very attentive present parents. We had very attentive present school teachers. We also had, we also worked with a team of people that, at least to my knowledge, were very attentive and present and considerate of us being, you know, children in an adult setting. You know, I think that what feels really sensitive to me about this documentary and everybody talking about it, and especially, you know, a lot of the more kind of salacious conversations that are happening about it, you know, I think that there is this notion that like, oh, that must have happened to everybody. Because this is kind of what happens when documentaries like this come out.

It's like, ooh, it's the dark secret that we revealed about this, but it must have been happening everywhere. And you had it and you had it, you know. And so I think it is important to talk about. out, you know, I can't speak for Jenna, but I can echo what Jenna just said that we had an environment where we had a lot of very experienced grownups who were in charge of producing our show and writing our show. And that's not to say that, you know, young people shouldn't, you know, run shows or anything like that. And it's not even necessarily about that. But, you know, we had, for us, it was Don Rio who, you know, started writing on Laughin and MASH.

and wrote for Cher on the Share show, kind of a different trajectory, you know, for someone kind of to end up writing for a family sitcom, you know, based around teenagers. So there really, you know, was kind of from the top down a sort of, I don't know, vibe, for lack of a better word. And, you know, my mom, Jenna's mom and dad, you know, Joey's mom, They were pretty much there all the time.

And, you know, my mom in particular had, you know, a big mouth that she used to make sure that, you know, we were not being worked inappropriately, that we weren't being taken to school. And, you know, a lot of times, and this is just my mom in general, you know, often spoke up. She just has kind of like a big Bronx mouth. And so, you know, I heard that a lot, meaning I heard it a lot because it was happening right in front of me. And I always felt like people were annoyed with her because she was strict about time. She was strict about if something didn't feel comfortable. If I reported something to her,

like, I don't want to talk about this on TV. And I think we all felt very comfortable to be able to go to Dawn, to be able to go to our other writers and be like, this feels ick. I remember there was a scene where Blossom and Six were supposed to be shaving their legs. This is like one of my favorite stories.

and I am a person who does not shave my legs, which Joey Lawrence used to say was like the dirtiest human ever because there was buzz on my legs. But that was, you know, it was a different time and girls who didn't shave their legs were like, oh, you wear Army boots. Like, yeah, I do.

Anyway, at the time, you know, I know that that's something that, for example, teenage girls would do together. But it wasn't something that I wanted to be shown on our show as a way that these girls were bonding. I think there's so many other ways that Blossom and Six

had an amazing time together. But, you know, that was something that my mother was like, you will walk into that office and you will tell him what you think. And I was like, I don't want to. You know, and what she was teaching me was like, if something doesn't feel right, if it doesn't feel right to do that, you get to present what these teenage girls are doing. And so, like, that was the conversation.

And of course, like, it was met with, are you serious? You won't just, like, do this scene? And I was like, yeah, that's right, I won't. And they ended up changing it. and it wasn't a big deal and there it was. And, you know, that comfort is not something that I saw, you know, in this documentary. I saw kids, you know, being worked past their hours. I saw them clearly uncomfortable having to, like, eat lots of sugar, like, for a visual gag

and, like, you know, them being uncomfortable with the clothes they were wearing. And, like, I'm going to leave aside, like, all the weirdness in the documentary about, like, a lot of the, like, weird sex jokes and stuff that apparently, like, got passed. every single sponsor and executive. Like, I'm going to leave that aside. Yeah, there's a large party of people that that had to filter through. Yeah, I don't even understand how that happened.

But anyway, that's a separate point. But I would like to know, you know, Christy, was that your experience? Like, tell me some of the positive things that you experienced. And, you know, what were some of the more challenging things? Just in terms of, like, did you have a voice? Great. Okay.

So I have some thoughts. And just don't use whatever I say. that doesn't make sense in the conversation. This is just like the only time I'm going to talk about this because I trust you guys, you're a part of my community, and this is a space for me. Really, this is the only time I want to talk about this, and then I just want to try to heal and advocate

in a private capacity. So I think we're all kind of living with a little bit of survivors' guilt. I just want to throw that out there. I think that, especially if one does, choose to watch it. The folks that are in our niche community, this little 1% of 1% of the union, is truly dislocated from one another.

And to be sort of, I don't know if I'm using this correctly, correct me of over wrong, but the trauma bonding of this for certain folks. And then the exclusionary element of those who did not get certain experiences on the spectrum of this, but still have other things to have worked through because they were high-performing children

in a exploitive industry. Secondary trauma. Right, exactly. So there's a lot, and it cannot be boiled down to conspiracy theories and divisive rhetoric that continues to dislocate and to keep us divided. as a very niche community and that I do not support.

So yeah, there's that spectrum of experience. And Jenna, you said something about how everybody on the set can choose to be a part of this village, right? Because we're all moms. And it's one of those things where you would want your child to be around people who all kind of lean in to being the village mentality. But oftentimes every set is very different

based on, I think, showrunner top-down type stuff. And stage manager. I also, you know, that's like, to me, that's the captain of the ship, you know? Interesting. Because I wasn't on a sitcom. So it's like every different medium, every different genre has its own, interesting system. And also I think that it speaks to trauma-informed care.

I think that everybody that is having to touch or work with the minor should have a level of training. to have had a mandatory HR video or a program that they've gone through because a lot of times the crew will work on several different Disney shows, several different Nickelodeon shows, so they hop around.

And so that's like, you know, you've got to get your clearance. It's like TSA clearance, right? I'd like to know where you felt your personal voice was because I'm happy, next I'm going to share some things where I didn't feel my voice was always heard, but I'd like to hear some places where you did feel you could,

could assert your voice or was it a parent or a guardian helping you do that? What worked well? The only two times that I remember being able to quote unquote assert my voice was when the writers would come to me and they would write towards my personal experiences. So they would be like, hey, you know, you've just turned 16. You know, are boys interesting to you? Do you want your character to have a boyfriend? Sort of like that where they would actually bring you in and try to write to your strengths.

So as a sort of young creator, young artist, I was like, this is. cool, this will be an easier lift for me emotionally and I can kind of grow with my character. Outside of that, there were two times that, you know, my mom also marched in to the producer's office and said, you can't start the close up on her butt and then pull out. That's not going to happen, right? Because I told her. I'm sorry, why were we starting a close up on your butt? Maybe because it's, I don't know, maybe that, I have no idea. I have no idea. I have no idea. It was a stylistic choice, and I don't, and it didn't happen. Let's just put it that way.

It might have been an oversight because maybe, you know, because my folks, they were, they were also very paternal and I didn't, I don't think they saw it that way. Let's put it that way. I don't think they were thinking like that. I can't say that for every other set, but certainly it wasn't, it wasn't, right? And then there was another time when I think early on I had braces and they threw like, you know, some loaded tempera paint like tomatoes at my face. And so it was kind of like very dysregulating.

And there was a lot of shame there for a young child. Now again, these are us recounting these stories of these traumas and it feeds into the algorithm and those are those things. So it's tempting to want to share. And then it's like, but I want to share with you guys. Like I don't really want to share that anymore with the echo chamber of the algorithm. that's truly not of my interest anymore. Jenna, what about you?

I mean, it's interesting to me, because listening to the two of you talk about your parents, I feel like my parents were much softer spoken about things. I think they were very green. I don't think I know that they were very green. My mom is from a small town in Wisconsin. My dad is from a small town in Connecticut. You were honestly the most stressful.

in your family. Like you advocated for yourself really well. Yes. So that's, I think, what's so interesting to me. And I don't know that there were certainly moments, and I wish I could think of specifics at the moment I can't, where I know that I went and spoke to the writers or spoke to Don and said, I am not comfortable with this.

I recall doing that. I recall doing that and have a vague recollection at one point of my mom saying, well, I mean, they do such a, like they write so responsibly for you guys and they're doing such a good job. Surely there's something to it. And I was like, no, no, no, no, this is not comfortable for me. I'm going to go talk to Dawn. And I'm thrilled that I felt so, that I felt safe enough in that space to do that. Obviously, when we're talking about the documentary, nobody was in a safe space.

Nobody felt that they were in a safe space, not the children, not the parents, obviously, not even the people around them who might have noticed that things had gone awry and may have even, who knows, wanted to speak up. We don't know, right? We can't crawl into their heads. But I definitely know that there were moments where I spoke to Dawn, spoke to, you know, Jonathan Prince or someone that I felt really solid with who felt that I could talk to. But I don't recall my parents really stepping in in that way. I think they weren't comfortable in that world. I don't think they really knew where to step without hitting a landmine. And I'm the oldest of four. And I very definitely was setting a precedent in my family that no one had ever set in just even in following this crazy career that no one knew anything about until I was in it. but I hope to God that I can impart even a small amount of that voice to my children.

And I actually know that I have because my daughters come home from school sometimes. And they're like, here's what happened today. And here's what I had to sell the teacher. And I was like, okay, no, whoa. So at least it's working. Despite all the positive things that Jenna, that we experienced, and, you know, this isn't like me looking for dirt because I think that's also a really strong point

that you've brought up that when you see a documentary like this, there's this tendency to be like, well, bad things happen to me. Like it happened to me too. And like maybe not that bad, but like here's, that's not what I'm interested in. But what the documentary triggered for me was like, where were their points, you know, in these, in particular, in the kids' experiences

when they were, you know, being asked to do all these things on the show and it was like having peanut butter licked off your body, like just like weird stuff. What, what do I understand about what discomfort feels like as a teenager on a set? Because believe me, most of my teenage years not on the set were also uncomfortable.

And it was filled with a lot of like, oh, everyone's smoking. Everyone's drinking. Everybody's hooking up. What's a blow job? Right? Like, that was a lot of my, experience as a human. Sorry, folks. And my kids don't listen to this and they, that's probably why,

because I probably, I'm going to say things like that is what they think. But what I do remember is there were uncomfortable things that I had to go through that were not of the level that I could say, I don't want to do this, because I did have the understanding that it was my job. For example, I didn't have a period when Blossom did. Blossom Blossoms was our first episode, Felicia Rashad, from the Cosby Show played Blossom's mom in a fantasy, in a dream sequence, where she dreams that instead of having a dad trying to deal with having her first period, that she had the mom of her dreams explaining ovaries and fallopian tubes and all these things. And it was a hilarious episode. It was a very important episode. You know, we had Blossom, actually,

Vani Ribisi, Giovanni Ribisi was a young actor at that time. And he played the guy at the pharmacy when she has to buy, you know, sanitary protection. And in her mind, in her mind, the box is this big. And so we had this, you know, kind of fantasy of like, oh my God, it's so big. And, you know, I had not had a period. I felt extremely uncomfortable doing that episode. Well, I hadn't had one either. Right. And now I was two years younger than you. So I just sort of, I think in my head assumed. Oh, you assumed that I was a woman. Yeah. No, I was, I mean, I was not. If you can do New York Times crossword puzzles in ink while you're waiting for scene, you know, to A, I'm pretty sure you have your period. Well, I was not a woman. But this,

This is an example of, did I feel uncomfortable? Yes. Would I have had a right to say, I don't want to do this entire episode? I'll be honest. I don't think they would have changed the episode. That was the entire premise of the entire episode. So, and this is also, I am not comparing that discomfort with any discomfort that of anything I saw in the documentary, from the smallest discomfort to the greatest.

That's not what I'm talking about. talking about this notion of like, there are certain situations where as a child actor, you know you have to do this. I didn't want to kiss people on television. I hadn't kissed people not on television. I was humiliated to have to tell that to anyone. So I just didn't.

And I just sort of did it. And I was like, do I even know what I'm doing? Right? So I did same thing for me. And it's really interesting in retrospect years later to hear that. I thought I was very experienced with people in bed. No, actually. Because again I bring up, because again I bring up doing the New York Times

Crossword puzzle and ink on the side of the set, on the side of the set. So I just assumed that. I had a different kind of game, Jenna. Yeah, okay. So, no, I also, there's an episode where I, I want to say I kiss, I had to kiss Jonathan Brandis in, like, front of the Russo door or whatever,

and you'll open up the door and I'm standing there kissing him. And I had never kissed anyone. And I remember what I remember most about that episode, which was very embarrassing for me because I had no idea what I was doing, was that, you know, it said we were kissing and I just assumed that meant tongue. So when that happened, I was like, oh, well, this is what's, this is what people do. And when the, when they called cut, I remember one of our cameras. guys was like, you know, this is just acting, right? You're not supposed to use tongue. And I was so

embarrassed. I was like mortified because no, I didn't know that because I'm 12. So how would I know that? Like I've never kissed anybody in real life. So no, I have no clue. Well, maybe I was like 16. I don't know. But like, nevertheless, whatever age I was. This is, I hope it's not out of turn to share this. I've literally never said this to anyone. And we really need to ask David Lashar. Every single time that I had to kiss David Lashar, I always thought that I was doing it wrong. Because he was like, he seemed like so much more of a grown-up to me.

And I always thought, I mean, I never really wanted to kiss with tongue on television. It just didn't seem like something I wanted to do on television. But I also had no idea or I had no reference point for this. So every time we had a kissing scene, I was thinking that he was thinking, because I have to be in someone else's head, it's a much more comfortable place to be than inside my head. Every single time we kiss, for years on that show, I was thinking he's very disappointed in me. He's disappointed because I don't know what I'm doing and I'm not doing it right and I'm just like faking it and like trying to pretend. So it's interesting because that was never comfortable to do in front of camera crews. It was never comfortable to do.

We had a lot of great directors and we had a couple directors that I did. didn't especially feel comfortable kissing in front of because it felt not comfortable. Well, right. Like when you've never actually had an intimate experience with someone of kissing some, you know, doing like the normal progression of your teenage years and kissing someone in a parking lot at the movie theater or whatever. And instead, you have a 65-person crew in front of you with cameramen who are actually like, like zooming in and out. Like there's,

that's not normal. What's normal about that? How does that impact your actual first time without the camera crews? Like, have you... Well, you know, you set up your selfie so that it's...

I'm kidding. Oh my God, I'm so kidding. No, it feels very different, and this is when people say that like sex scenes or sex scenes, which I'm always like, I don't know, if I'm naked next to a person, I think it feels like being naked next to a person,

but there is something... But there is a disassociating. There's a dissociation. Yeah, there's a association. And also there's something very, you know, clinical about having intimate scenes, even kissing because it's about like the angle and, you know, which way and, you know, how you position your face and it's got to be visible. But I mean, I think the thing that I want to ask you, Jenna, is like, you know, when I watched the documentary, there was, you know, there was this notion of like, I know what that feels like to feel powerless. You know, even if it's in a, even if it's in a, even if. it's on a different scale. And I'm not speaking about the sexual assault and rape. I'm speaking about what most of the documentary did dedicate itself to, which was this overwhelming discomfort. So even in the best of circumstances, that is what can happen when kids are placed in that situation. Agreed. I mean, because even in the best of circumstances, it's still kids in a room filled with adults, right? It's still kids playing out words that adults have written in situations

that adults have written, even when you are talking about adults with a high level of responsibility, such as Don Rio, who I absolutely 100% managed to crawl inside the head of a 15-year-old girl in a way that most grown men can't and really established this beautiful foundation of a character that was very in-depth and layered and, you know, went through really authentic scenarios with authentic words. I mean, it was really quite phenomenal. And yet, you're still a child who has not experienced life yet, who hasn't experienced adult situations. And, you know, I remember when,

this is such a random thing, but I remember when Leanne Rhymes first started singing. And one of the issues that people initially had was that she was singing songs as a 15-year-old, that spoke of experiences she had not yet had. You know, and sort of in a sense that in a nutshell, that's what a set is like. You know, when you're talking about a collaboration of a cast of children

who have not yet had adult experiences, but they're doing these, you know, saying these words and making these, in some cases, rather adult jokes, you know, that's kind of part of it. I used to say this about when I would teach my older son to play songs on the piano that I also played. And, you know, even giving a highly emotional piece of music to a teenager, he can be technically proficient,

but he doesn't have the emotional connection to, you know, in particular, you know, a deeply painful ballad. And so I'm not trying to trivialize what you're saying. I'm trying to add to it in that in the same way that, you know, we're giving children, you know, scenes and lines to say that they may not have experience with. They also don't have the life experience of how to say I'm uncomfortable when they are. Correct. Agreed. You know, 100%. Um, you know, the other thing that, that was really, you know, astounding to me in this arena was how disempowered those parents had to feel.

There's a scene of Ariana Grande as a very young girl laying, you know, back on a bed, like dousing herself with water and all of these like, you know, what would only be identified in pornographic industry terms of the kind of things that are being done. Like, why? And this is not me saying, why didn't the parents say anything? For all I know they did. the notion that again, the culture was created,

and that is what the documentary is focusing on, there was a culture that was created where no one could speak up when things were so blatantly, like, weird and not okay. That's astounding to me. I think that was the most striking thing for me that the parents involved, in some cases, were sitting back and saying,

this is not, something doesn't feel right. And yet they were being dismissed from the set before, you know, in one case, the parents were dismissed. And who was it, the FBI or the police or somebody was talking to the children? Like that was mind-blowing to me. And that's what, and that's what, you know, Christy is trying to speak to, that there should never be a situation where any parent is asked to leave their child with other adults.

without having someone say, parents, you're not going anywhere. Like that is what safety looks like. That's what hope looks like. Correct. I want to highlight something that was something I knew but was astounded to see. And that was the lack of representation of females

in this era of television. And besides that most crews were male, and honestly, in many cases, most crews are still male. Like, that's just, it's just a thing. Um, when I worked on Call Me Cat, we had, I was told we had the most females anyone had ever seen on a crew, on our crew. We had gaffers, we had gaffers that were female. Like, we had every department. And it was a really, really strong effort that we had and that, um, that my company, you know, tried to especially have and that Jim Parsons was also part of, like creating a really, really diverse kind of crew. But

it astounded me that women were not more included in writer's spaces and welcomed in writer's spaces. And one of the things, Christy, I know you haven't seen it, that happened was, you know, a mistreatment of women in the writer's room that unfortunately did not surprise me. And that's something I want to be able to touch on in this conversation. The difference in what the culture was like then. in terms of how women were treated, in terms of how children were treated. And, of course, in terms of how we understood what it means to be a victim, those things have changed so much just in the way we speak about them.

But I remember that, you know, Don Rio had, well, Judith Allison was our other executive producer who happened to be married to Don Rio, but we had a woman who was one of the most senior people on our staff. we had Brenda Hampton, we had Roussel Reset Schaefer, we had women, Brenda Hampton went on to create Secret Life of the American Teenager and Seventh Heaven, right? We had women who were in the beginning of their writing careers who wanted to write about the complicated experience of a female.

And it devastated me to see these shows talked about, especially that we're focusing on the experience of a female child and a tween and it was so acceptable at that time to not even have women as a respected part of the conversation. So I just want to highlight that because I did feel safer having women. And look, you can have a woman there

who is not an advocate for women, right? There's all kinds of women and there's allowed to be, right? One of the things that Jenna and I experienced, which we've talked about, is we had a lot of Playboy bunnies on our show in fantasy sequences. and, you know, as positive as our show was for the female experience, and I think Jenna and I, you know, got to really experience that

and show characters that both dated people and liked to be good at school, you know, like that was crazy at the time. We also did have a huge push from the marketing, you know, from the network, to get more male viewers, right? Because, like, boys don't want to watch girls on TV. So the notion was, let's bring in this fantasy element. And I'll be honest, I think it was more upsetting. I mean, I think it was more upsetting for me

that it might have been for Jenna just because, like I said, I was raised by like a really, really loud mouth feminist who like had been banned from lots of spaces for like outrageous things she said. And I'm not saying it didn't impact Jenna, but I'm saying like I was a person who could not hide that it didn't feel good.

I think Jenna was much more skilled than I was at being able to tolerate things. I think it's actually not that I was more skilled at tolerating them. I think it's that I had to grow into my understanding of what was actually going on. You were raised in a family where politics were discussed. And, you know, there were conversations around the dinner table about the social aspect of the, you know, of the social standing of the world around us. I didn't grow up in that.

I grew up in a very sweep and under the carpet kind of family. And so my understanding came from hands-on experience. So it took a long time for me. Again, I had to grow into my voice. I had to grow into my understanding of why I needed a voice and why it was important. You know what I mean? I appreciate you saying that because at the time, you know, you're a couple years younger than me. But at the time, I felt like I felt out of place in being so outraged because I wanted,

I wanted everybody to be my ally, right? And I appreciate hearing you reflect on that because at the time I really felt like, am I making a big deal of nothing? You know, was I just raised by this mother who was like, that shouldn't be what you have to deal with? And I remember my mom, and I think, Jenna, we probably both benefited from this.

My mom really tried to not have us around when men would come over and just, like, want to take pictures with them. Like a lot of our break times, that's what would happen is like, from other stages would be like, oh, Playboy Bunny of whatever year is on your set. And my mom would say, like,

I think this is a good time for a break. And she didn't want me around that. Well, I'd have to say that I'm actually really proud of Disney because we had two women on our writing staff and they did call them the girls, but they made it a point to hire them, I think, around, it was, I believe, the second season when they did want to start to run.

right towards my character. Originally, they really wanted to create it as Shia's show, Louis Stevens, and then they realized they needed both demos of the female and Disney's mostly female demo. So they kind of gave my character more real estate, and so therefore they also realized that they could split up our labor time so that we wouldn't necessarily be in the same storylines anymore, and then they could split it equally, right, so that everyone could win. But yeah, I mean, I think there was definitely a female narrative towards the end. I think they were understanding that we were growing up and that the show would end.

I don't think there was a desperation. And then on top of that, on the executive side, you know, Gary Marsh, who was the president for a long time, to me, was a little bit of a mentor over the years. And always tried to check in with me about, because, you know, this is an ecosystem. This isn't just, you know, just the set. It's what's happening to the kids after they go home, and it's what's happening to the kids after the set ends, and they have to get a new job. And so, you know, it never ends, this cycle and this sort of understanding of it all never ends. So I did have a lot of mentorship on the executive side from Disney that I'm very grateful for. And, you know, I don't think they saw it through the lens of, you know, women empowerment.

but I did end up getting a lot of those type of characters, right? So like, that's Christy. She's the smart brunette. Give her Compossible, give her, you know, the mean girl with this brunette or something. Right? So like I did fall into a lot of that casting that was actually a safeguard for me, to be honest, because people didn't see me and say, oh, she's going to be, you know, the next, I guess, I don't even know how to exactly cast myself, miscast myself.

but it seems like people knew that they couldn't mess with me. Myam and Jenna, like when I hear your experience, you were on a show that you felt secure enough to speak up. And what I was struck by on the Nickelodeon set is that these kids seemed totally disposable. It was the sense that no one felt secure and that fame was being dangled in front of them and their families. And there was a very clear message

that you don't speak up, that the entire structure and system in place was you could be gone the next season and this kid is as funny as the next one and almost no one had any power at all. And it was literally one of the actors who were saying like his mom was seen as a problem and then the next season they weren't there.

So it was like the dynamics were very clear. So I just wondered, you know, Jenna, when you saw that, like how, you know, it was heartbreaking to me to see. I just wonder what your reaction to that was. Yeah, it's gut-wrenching. I agree. It's interesting to hear that take on it because you're right, I think to a certain extent,

you know, I don't think I've ever second-guessed my own, you and Joey and Michael and I being cast in those roles. I don't, I never felt disposable. I never felt that come season three. You know, they might recast my role with someone else and pass a, off. But it is very interesting. And I don't know if that's because there were fewer of us. I don't know if it's because it was a series that was in prime time that was not necessarily intended for children. It was so it was very, there was adult humor on our show.

There was adult humor on our show that was very welcomed because the demographic ranged from one end to the other. But also it was intentional, you know. You meaning it was adult humor because it was a family show. Like it wasn't like let's name the character like a genitalia name and see if someone will pick up on it.

That's it. It wasn't a show that was intended for, you know, 14 and under and passing horrific jokes. off that the parents clearly get and the children don't. You know, we were appealing to a much broader

demographic. So like you said, the intention was there. I mean, I think, you know, we knew from day, I knew from day one there were jokes that went over my head and that never bothered me because I wasn't usually the one telling them. Right. Well, I mean, look, I remember when your character,

when we had your character explain why her name was six, my father said that's how many beers it took. It took me a minute to be like, what? Like I, I mean, I was also a very, very, you know, innocent and naive 14. But that was a, you know, a more sophisticated joke. But I bet the person who could speak to this is Christy Carlson-Romano because I think part of it maybe is the structure of kids shows, you know, that are part of a larger machine. Like, I can't imagine, I can't imagine not getting to feel special.

I don't just mean because I was a star of the show. I mean, I can't imagine a lot of these kids' experience of just like, I was just like the person filling a slot and if my mom was too loud and tried to advocate for me, they just got a new kid. Like, is that just like how it worked? No, that's unique. That's unique.

You know, I think that there was definitely a much more large crop of people of 10. over there of kids. And like I said, the synergy was handled very differently. Whereas I think with Disney, they were targeting certain archetypes in every single person. So they had Hillary and she was, you know, the blonde. Like they were trying to resurface the old studio system that Disney had done really well. And it did work. But, you know, Disney and Nickelodeon were very different tonally. But, you know, standards and practices should be the same at every network. So

how, you know, and I'm aware of this Penelope character that everyone's talking about from the doc, and I even slightly recall it watching that, you know, because I used to love all that as a kid, too. And so to remember that and then to connect the dots with that, I'm like, yeah, somebody should have caught that. Absolutely somebody should have caught that. But, you know, I think at the time, speaking from somebody who was living through all of it, people, Nickelodeon was messy. They had like, you know, they were considered messy and chaotic and unrefined. And it was kind of like, it was fun.

And so we didn't understand what that was like because a lot of us at the time in the original OG people, we didn't just hop over to go on the Disney Channel, or as the Nickelodeon shows. It was like we primarily were Disney actors and our country. contracts were there. It does seem, I mean, you have a really good point with that. It does seem like the you know, sliming and you can't do that on television and like all of the, you know, all of Nickelodeon from day one really kind of was, as you stated, sort of more of a chaotic space. Oh, and I get it. I get it. Like they wanted kids to feel like they could play. And there was a, I remember my first pilot was a

a Nickelodeon pilot. And I also did a really strange pilot where I was the voice of a tummy. And it was two young women's midrifts and they drew faces on them and then they wiggled them. Yes. You know, this, any and outy.

Yes, I remember this. That's funny. Yeah, and so I was a New York kid and so I ended up doing Nickelodeon because it had a huge presence in the casting space of New York. And so it was, I mean, they were making children's content,

I think, before Disney was, really doing that. So, you know, I think we all kind of knew that it was, and they were making cool content. I just want to say, like initially, they were making really interesting worlds and spaces, but slowly but surely it got messier. Well, and I think that's sort of what I, and, you know, I don't, I don't mean to devil's advocate this, but also part of me is like, there should be fun. There has to be fun. Like, there's got to be a fun place. And is it that fun always then brings problems. Because the social conservative in me

is like, this is what happens. This is what happens when you let things be fun and chaotic is that people get hurt. And it starts being more important to get ratings than it is to actually like produce content and respect a human. It takes on a life of its own. Well, what struck me in terms of this fun

is that it became all about the gag. You know, there was, you lost a story component for the outlandish things that were going to be done. Sure, it was at the expense of everything else. It was all about what is the most extreme, the fear factor. When you see the kids with the bugs and you're like, what is happening? Why are these children being exposed to like, I hate snakes? And you're like giving insects and these disgusting things for them to eat. I'm like, where is the story? Like, how is this kids programming that has any component of story, which Disney and NBC at the time, like they were focused on telling stories about kids that are reflecting back some experience?

And then it seemed to be like, let's just make the most outlandish thing possible. And in order to convince the kids to do it, we're going to dangle this sense of fame. And if you just go along with this machine long enough, your life is going to change. You're going to get out of poverty. you're going to get the next thing and just cooperate. And that's what struck me the most about the bind they were in. But also isn't that partly the timing too? Like, my, when you and I were on a top 10 TV show, we got snail mail.

You know, we got bags of letters in our rooms delivered by the network because there wasn't social media to the extent that there is now. And so in a sense, there is also. that component of dangling because there's this immediate gratification available that, you know, wasn't held over our heads. It also didn't exist. Christy, was that like that for you? Did it feel like, oh, just one other show, one other episode, one other season sort of changes the stratosphere of your career? Or how was that? No. And you know, earlier I said that we said yes to every opportunity, but I didn't mean that in a sense of like every moment of every opportunity.

What I meant was that, you know, you wanted to try to create longstanding relationships with people. So I can understand, you know, I can understand the survivor's guilt mindset of this because it's like, okay, that could have been any one of us. And we all kind of need to grieve together, I think, at this point, and sort of come together to try to figure out what now. I want to ask a little bit about a little bit more about the difference in climate. First of all, one of the most powerful emotions I felt after finishing quiet on set was a tremendous sense of gratitude for the culture that exists now,

where there is an opening to talk about how all human beings are treated on sets. in particular the fact that, you know, Christy, with the kind of work that you do, that there's a conversation about advocacy in this arena. And, you know, there's something so astounding about watching, really, any footage, any documentary, even reading the newspaper from this very, very different time in history. But I do want to touch on it because I think it is significant. this notion that the things that happened, you know, the most complicated and painful

and tragic things that happened that are discussed in this documentary occurred at a time when, in this particular case, there was a recorded confession that was then disputed. And it was disputed in a very public way. And it was disputed in a way that people are now saying like, oh my God, I cannot believe what I publicly stated. And it occurred to me, the only way that I could make sense of it was I said to Jonathan, it must have been at that

time that people didn't know there was a recorded confession or worse yet and more painful, people may not have believed what they heard, if they heard it. And the highest level of grossness and obscenity was the notion that these things occurred in a time, forget about what happened at Nickelodeon. These things occurred at a time when you could accuse a child of seducing a grown adult. and when I think about that, it warps the mind

and that's where I have to find hope and I have to have gratitude that we do not live in a time where you are allowed to say that a child can ever do anything to seduce or tempt or entice an adult to violate them in any way

emotionally, physically, spiritually or sexually. But they're, That was such a mind fuck to realize that that is how powerful our culture had made it. That people that we grew up watching on television, people that we knew, people that we loved, would say, this child tempted an adult. What? Jenna, do you want to, did you have this same reaction of like, what the fuck universe were we living in where that was acceptable to say? Yeah, I mean, you know, my first reaction was, like, where was I when all of this happened? How did this, it just didn't feel like the same world that I was familiar with.

And that's not to say that I was ignorant to the fact that the casting gouch exists. It has for many, many years. I certainly know that there are, I've heard many stories. I, you know, I've had many conversations with friends. about awful things that they've been through. And, you know, it's heartbreaking. All of them, all of the stories are heartbreaking. But there was a part of me that felt so out of the loop in some bizarre way when I watched this.

Because I thought, how did all of this go down? And I was, number one, I had no idea. And, you know, I moved to Nashville many years ago. I've been raising my kids here. So to a certain extent, I am out of the loop in that way. You know, I don't read variety. I don't follow. I live my life and love my kids and, you know, like I felt kind of a little bit more small town at this point than I was back then.

But nevertheless, we still grew up in that. And so to watch this documentary and see all of that was like very, I mean, it dug a very deep hole in. in my heart to hear about people that I know, for example, who, you know, who supported someone who, you know, they heard a confession from. And I didn't know that until I watched the documentary. So that was very, the shock of that was, um, astounding.

We actually don't know. And this is something the documentary, you know, may not know either. I don't know what people knew then. I don't know what people were, I don't either. I don't know what people were privy to. I don't know the extent to which they were, you know, they were involved in talking to people or understanding what the situation was. It was, I don't know.

I honestly, I don't know. Is it ethically our business to know everything about this court case? Or is it, and certainly we want to support and any way that we can, folks that need that support, I'm, I would, don't get it twisted. internet um but honestly like what at what point at what point is it is it time i don't know guys i don't know i don't know i don't know how i feel about it we're all still processing this as a community i just want to point that out and of course to bring it back to when we first started about what you think you know about people you know it's people need to need to be kind and um patient

with one another right now. Well, and, you know, my girlfriend, who's a trauma advocate, said something really important to me, which was, listen, we, not only are we not privy to what everybody knows, knew, had access to, didn't have access to, but secondary trauma is a really big thing. And, you know, I would imagine that there are a lot of people

who ended up in this documentary, who have secondary trauma that they are only just beginning to touch the surface of processing. So I don't know. I mean, I'm not, I am not looking to judge anyone who supported someone because I don't know what they did or didn't have access to in terms of information at that time. I will only sit back and say, I, you know, the victims of all of this, it's tragic. That is a lifetime of processing. It's a lifetime of working through trauma and self-confidence issues and all of the things that come from all of that.

And I'm sure, I mean, I think just by watching the documentary, being in the business or out of the business, anyone who watches it, to a certain extent, has to process that trauma. Well, and like I said, you know, just the notion that you're watching a slice of time, you know, you're watching what the entire culture was like. This is not what happened because Nickelodeon, this, that. That's not what the documentary brought up for me. Of course it touched me personally. Of course it did.

But what it also reminded me of is how far we had to. come to get to a place where people like Christy get to advocate and we know what she means when she says the mental health of children on sets matters and there are things that we can do to make sure that there are no exceptions. You don't get to push that child. And if the mother says it's okay, guess what? The mother's wrong because we don't push that child past when they were. I don't care if the parent thinks it's okay. I don't care if they ask the kid because we've grown up enough around enough kids.

We've all grown up around enough kids that you know when the kid is in pain and they look to the mother and the mother says you're fine. Because that's what

not only our industry requires, that's what our culture has required. Christy, I want to let you say anything you want or let us know where we can find out more about advocacy. Look, I encourage people

to keep talking about this as long as it's, you know, coming from a place of kindness and inclusion that's my two sense on this. I'm not going to be speaking to any other, you know, folks from any, you know, I've had people ask me to do op-eds.

I've had people to do, you know, everybody's coming at me. And I'm so grateful that I know you guys, and I'm so grateful that, you know, like you said, we have come a long way. If we want to try to think positively and productively, like adults who are healing and to a certain degree healed, then I think we need to be the adults in the room, the safe adults, and move on and help where we can. So for me, that's looking ahead program. I encourage everyone to check it out. I'm going to be emceeing. I'm flying myself out there to do the MC of their 20th anniversary. This is a very underfunded, but it's the only program that

helps get social workers involved with the children during set and after set. So that's what the union has right now. And so if everyone wants to take a look at that, you can donate as well. I've been talking about them for a while. So that's, you know, do with that what you want. But I do care for you guys. And it's one of those things where it's like, I may not know you, but I love you. And I want to thank you for the time to chat and connect. Thank you. And also, I just want to be respectful of this and you're welcome to drop it in. If it feels weird, we can edit it out. Do you have a new podcast? Hey, I am rebranding because honestly, as wonderful as this experience has been, there are too many voices in the room right now.

And I still need to understand. I'm a creator. And I make an income from being a creator. And I don't apologize for being a creator. That's what I do. And I'm so blessed. to have empowered myself after coming out of Hollywood feeling disempowered, that I don't think there needs to be, anyone needs to apologize for making a decent livable wage in America during this time of life, right? So personally, I'm really enjoying pivoting again. I've pivoted a couple times. And I'm going to pivot into doing a much more lighthearted podcast called Iconic. Thank you for asking. It's very different. And so I'm grateful for what that podcast vulnerable had touched on. But most importantly, lead the charge, Mayam, continue to have the hard

questions. That's really sweet. Well, you are iconic in so many ways and we really appreciate your time. And also, I think that's, I think it is important to mention that there's also a lot you've done in this space and you get to do other things as well. But I really do appreciate you, you know, letting us be the place that you felt comfortable to talk about it because you do understand things in a way that even Jenna and I can't. And it means a lot to us to just get to talk with you about it. So thank you. Thank you guys.

Jenna, thank you so much for talking. I know this is not easy to talk about. I know it's not pleasant to talk about. And I just, I appreciate your insight. And I appreciate that, you know, we got to experience so much positivity together. And also we've known a lot of tragedy as well.

And I appreciate you being open to talking about both aspects of it. thank you. Thank you for having me. Jonathan, I want to thank you for encouraging me to reach out to Christy and to Jenna. I really didn't want to talk about this. I don't really want to even think about it. But I think that I hope that it's been helpful to people, you know, to be able to hear both some of the, you know, perspectives that we have as people, you know, who grew up adjacent to this. And in some cases, visiting the sets where some of these things happened. And also, you know, as people who are just struggling to try and do differently, you know, in a culture that, you know,

finally allows us to do that. You know, I wasn't an active Nickelodeon watcher just because I was, you know, on television and then went to college when a lot of these shows were, you know, still running. You know, but I wonder if people feel differently about watching these now, you know, knowing what went on.

I know that you and I had a really visceral reaction to seeing uncomfortable children. We have that reaction when we go to the supermarket or when we're out in the world, you know, I wonder if that's one of the things that the documentary is bringing up for people is like, can we still view this? You know, can you, you can't unsee it. You know, you can't unsee what we've seen. I don't know if those episodes are still airing. I don't know what the access to this footage is when you see the children in very sexualized situations and jokes that they don't understand that clearly adults were laughing at the fact that

could like get away with getting kids to do this. It feels just so gross and strange. It's exploitive. It's exploitive. And like what is motivating them to do that? Because like is, do they find that funny? Like I mean, look, there's also a perversity to it, you know? Like there's a real perverseness to thinking that adults might have been kind of, I don't

want to say getting off. It's such a weird thing to say. But that adults might have been getting some sort of thrill out of like, look what we got this kid to say. Like, it's, it, I wouldn't want to watch it. I couldn't watch it. I couldn't, it would color the way I feel about the whole thing. And like, when you see these actresses, like, like, Ariana Grande and you see Amanda Binds and you see like careers that were built from this, like, I feel horrible that they went through that and either have to speak to it or not speak to it. It's very confusing. It's very, very confusing. We've had a lot of former child stars on our show. Some of them

very well adjusted. Some of them who have struggled more. And you can't help but look at their experience through this window. Every set is different, but the industry with its incentives to produce content and basically have people who, if you can't do the job, we're going to replace you. And the squeaky wheel doesn't get the grease. It gets replaced. It really shows that there there's this promise of potential fame for a lot of these kids and a lot of these families. It's a way out for a lot of them. And it's a very complicated and often destructive environment for children to be placed in. And, yeah, the notion of being separated from their parents, too, to try and negotiate or to try and, you know,

make the parents have less influence is just beyond exploitive. And in terms of the pressure, I did want to speak to this. The thing that I most heard, the thing that I most heard when I was auditioning was, you can buy a house with one commercial. So and so, they bought a house on one commercial. Now is the thing. Can you get that one commercial so that you can have a house? You know, we rented a house, my whole life.

He had one bathroom for four people. And, like, I mean, people had it a lot worse than I did. But the notion that we could actually have a house that was our own. You've talked about linters in the floor. You've talked about your windows needing to be propped open. People had it a lot worse than me, but as a kid knowing, for example, even on a small scale that we had to call the landlord

if something was broken and it often didn't get fixed, the notion that if I could just get one commercial, could I just, could I be cute enough? Could I be right for you so that you will approve of me enough so that I can do this for my family? I had a very, very small taste of that. And for these kids, and this is what is in the documentary,

there was a promise there. You will be famous. You will bring your family to a place they could never be. You will give them experiences they've never had. How could you not feel pressure? As the parent, how could you not want that? Of course you want that. I want to also be clear.

Jonathan and I are not telling you, go watch the documentary, don't watch the documentary. It's completely up to you what your comfort level is. it's absolutely full of things that you may get a lot of education you didn't want about what the industry was like. And also in many ways, it's a really interesting portrait of what the industry was like. And it is not for the feigned of heart. And if you do have sensitivity to discomfort, especially of children at the hands of adults, it's very painful. It's very difficult, but I'm very grateful. Again, thank you, Jonathan,

and I'm really grateful to Jenna and for Christy for coming on and talking to us about this. And please learn more about advocacy. If you don't know what the Jackie Coogan laws are, just Google it. Learn what it was like for there to be even a notion of rights for young people. And yeah, we really encourage you to get educated about this. It's very important, not just for what it says about the television industry, but about really the factory and the matrix that we're all kind of living in. So I have a lot of gratitude

that we are no longer living in those times. And my hope is that we will continue to advocate and find ways for us to have children express their artistic selves and express themselves in this way without being hurt. So thank you all for being here and from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

It's my and Bialics breakdown. She's going to bring down. break it down for you she's got a neuroscience phd or two one fiction one now she's gonna break down so break down she's gonna break it down she's gonna break it down