Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Rob Thomas: Allow Your Environment to Inform Your Creativity

Episode Date: January 9, 2024

Rob Thomas (lead singer of Matchbox 20) makes a rare podcast appearance to discuss how he went from stealing cars to being one of the most notable voices in alternative rock! He opens up about his tumultuous childhood growing up with an absent father and his mom’s Hodgkins diagnosis, the life lessons he learned from his liquor-bootlegging grandma, and his skepticism of genuine connections after dealing with “transactional” relationships for so long. Rob shares fascinating insights into the deep meanings behind so many of Matchbox 20’s hits, from which of their most famous songs is actually about mental health to his feelings on their hit song “Push’s” role in the new Barbie movie. He reveals the surprising origins of his famous collab with Carlos Santana and his love-hate relationship with “Smooth” now, how songwriting can be a form of therapy for him, how each member of Matchbox 20 being in therapy affects their collaboration, and what he credits his longtime marriage to in the midst of a rock-and-roll lifestyle. Rob also reflects on the value of social media, why he almost stopped therapy after a bad experience, his complicated relationship with alcohol today, his couples therapy goals, his struggles with panic attacks and what he does to manage them. Rob Thomas’ charity, Sidewalk Angels Foundation: https://www.sidewalkangelsfoundation.org/about Matchbox Twenty’s new album, Where the Light Goes: https://matchboxtwenty.com/releases/where-the-light-goes/ See Matchbox 20 on tour: https://matchboxtwenty.com/events/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And there was this convertible full of girls, and it was stopped at the red light, and they were blaring smooth out of the car. And that's how I found out that it was a single. That was me, Rob. That was me at the corner of Spring and Green. That was me. I was like, fuck, it's blossom. And then I thought that I had had an unreasonable understanding of what a successful song is.

But this was another world. It was a worldwide immediate smash. And it was like, I mean, to this day, if I meet someone, especially from another country, and they're like, oh, I love that song. I know what song that they're talking about. When it came out, I was in love with it. Then, like, a bunch of other people, I got really, really sick of it and didn't want to hear it again. And then, like, 20 years later, it started to creep back in.

And I was just kind of like, all right. You know, I could live with you now. Now, you know, I think it's because right off the bat, there's an element of cheese to, man, it's a hot one. Like, it's just. Yeah. I love it. It's so cheesy, but somehow it's the only line that would work.

In some ways, it's like you're gonna float away. It's hard to explain to how you feel a million pounds and weightless at the exact same time. But you feel like a lead balloon that's about to float away. I feel my heart in like every part of my body. And it feels hard, not necessarily fast. It just feels, whoop, boom, boom, boom. And I feel like, I can feel at my knees,

I can feel it everywhere. If I fixate on it, it makes it worse. And it just keeps, it keeps coming and keeps coming and keeps coming. And it would get to a point where I could make it come on just because I would be, sometimes I would just be so excited that I was doing something and not having a panic attack. And that thought would make it start going, oh yeah? And then it would just kind of come creeping in. It's my Bealik's Breakdown.

She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Hi, I'm Myam Vialik. I'm Jonathan Cohen. Welcome to our breakdown.

This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. I'm already laughing because I'm feeling like I'm headed for a breakdown is a lyric from a song written by a person who's going to be talking to us in a minute. Voice of a generation to many. We're talking to Rob Toll. Thomas from Matchbox 20. We get some behind-the-scenes scoops about what motivated some of his most influential songs, some of the most well-known work.

I mean, there's, first of all, I've never heard him on a podcast. I'm not saying we're the only ones, but this is not a format I've heard Rob Thomas exist in. And we're like in his home, we are talking about growing up. being, like living on the street. We're talking about the, like, insanity that he experienced as a kid growing up in a home with a really, really troubled mom. He talks about how he got from stealing cars and being sentenced to jail at 17. To writing 3 a.m. and a collaboration with Carlos Santana that almost every single person has heard. We're talking to Rob Thomas. Amazing. We're so excited. to welcome to the breakdown, Rob Thomas.

Break it down. First of all, you look 25. Like, why did I age and you did not? Maybe you just, you got to catch me in the right light. I promise, it's all there. It's all decaying at a rapid rate. I mean, I don't mean to age you, but, you know, you've been making music for a minute and, you know,

it's not like I can hide it because I, like, I started 30 years ago and I wasn't fine. So. Okay, well, first of all, congratulations. You look amazing. I imagine that you. I've been on this podcast for like three minutes and between you and Valerie. You've just made my whole day.

Like, I just feel elated. Thank you guys so much. I'm done now. This is all I need. Bye. I feel validated. Well, I've only asked one other person this who's come on our podcast and it was Matthew McConaughey.

Do you know who I am? Like, do you know why you're here? Well, of course. I mean, I've known you since I was a kid. I've known you since Blosson. What? I'm a, I was a big. I was literally just watching Big Bang Theory

like right before I walked in the room. I was so excited with you in Jeopardy. That's so crazy. How is that crazy? You were fucking blossom. Like the whole world knew you. But that's, that's, it's very strange. You even got a shout out and Seinfeld

when they were at the NBC Studios. So the reason that that's strange is that you're Rob Thomas. And so you exist in another universe that is separate from sitcoms of the 90s, and Seinfeld. I'm not sure if you know, but you were in a much recent,

more recent one even. It did really well. It did really well. This is a thing about mine, though. She assumes that none of the people that come on the podcast either want to be here or actually know anything about why they got here or how they got here.

That is hilarious. No, I'm actually very, very happy to be here and very happy to meet you. Thank you. You don't do a lot of podcasts. You're not like a, I do a ton of press kind of guy. Like, you've obviously done some really substantial

and fantastic interviews. But you have kind of a private life, it seems. You know, I do. But also, it was just one of those things where I just recently was talking to my manager and he was like, so how do you feel about podcasts? And I was like, I fucking dig podcasts. I think they're great. And he's like, well, you never do them.

And I was like, no, no, you never bring them to me. Like, I'm not sure how else I would get them. Like, I'm not cold calling podcasts, you know. Hey, what are you, Justin Long? What we often, you know, talk to people about is sort of like where they're from and how they got here. And, you know, you hail from quite a ways from Westchester County and from the part of the world that you live in now.

Geographically and otherwise, yeah. That's right. So you're from South Carolina, correct? Oh, yeah. Originally, I was born in Germany, but I came over to South Carolina when I was really, really young, like two years old. I lived at like Fort Jackson Army Base because my father was in the Army. and then my parents got divorced, like right when we got back to the States.

I lived in South Carolina for a little while, and I moved. I want to say, like in, like, fourth grade, I moved to Florida. You don't have any memory of being born in Germany, correct? You were little. I don't at all. Only, you know, the photographs, these, you know, everything. So apparently everything in my life was sepia tone until I got to South Carolina. Got it.

And did your dad stay in the military? No, he got out as soon as his time was up. And the only thing he used to tell me over and over and over, the only good advice I got from him was never join the army. He was not a fan. Was your dad part of your life once you moved about? Or you, I know you were raised partly with your mom and also your grandma was around, correct? Yeah, it was mostly my mom, my grandmother, like, all, like,

I was like summer residencies at my grandmother's. My grandmother was this character and she owned a store. It was like a general store like in this tobacco town called Lake City South Carolina. Like it's on it even on a good map. It's really tiny and it's it's she owned like the store that all the tobacco farmers would come to you know It was like it was the social hub of this tiny little town and we also lived in the back of this store like you'd walk through the store and that's how you get to the house the part that we lived in and it was I mean It was modest to say the least it was where the like the floor is if there was a hole it went straight to the ground kind of a thing, you know And and and there was and all the cast of characters were there and she used to bootleg liquor out from this room under the stage and and she used to sell weed, you know, like in little dime bags.

So I was like, you know, 10 years old, learning how to like weigh out dine bags and take the seeds out and everything. You know, good life lessons that I was learning at a young age. My dad lived near there in South Carolina. But because I think there was a... I didn't realize until years and years later that my mom and him, like my mother had a strange relationship with drinking

and would kind of terrorize my father. and so I didn't get to see my father a lot and I didn't understand why. So he wasn't really a presence. You know, he was definitely every, you know, once a month weekend dad kind of thing. And when you were 12,

your mom was diagnosed with Hodgkins. And I would imagine, especially if she was a single mom, like that must have kind of turned everything upside down. You had an older sister, but she left home young, correct, to get married? Yeah, my sister was a really fun story. because A, she's, I think, the only person in my family

that I'm really close to and that I speak to all the time and that, you know, and because I think we went through a lot together and that kind of, you know, bonded us forever. But she left home. I was like, her last day of school, my last day of sixth grade, she ran away from home at 17 and moved in with her 21-year-old boyfriend. She got married at 18 years old, and they have been married almost 40 years now.

And they're like the closest couple I've ever met in my entire life. What? You never hear those stories. Never. Yeah, no, no. Everybody thinks it's going to take a weird left turn, but it doesn't. It just continues on and bliss, you know, for their entire life. That's pretty young, though, also for you to be sort of left, especially with your mom not being well.

And then as you've talked about, your mom went into remission, I guess when you were about finishing high school. But it sounds like your mom was kind of a character, kind of a partier. Like you grew up in an unusual situation. and especially without a sibling. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because I think a lot of this, if you don't mind me, sort of psychoanalyzing your music,

which I've spent a lot of my life doing, you know, there's a lot of experiences in there that I think make their way in one way or another into a lot of your lyrics. So I'm curious if it felt like it started then, that kind of intensity. Yeah, I mean, I think as far as the way that it creeps into creativity, I think it's always one of those things where it's not necessarily

that I write about these situations. but these situations informed me of the way the world works in a different way. And so I looked at other situations that I would go into in the future. I think through a different lens than maybe I would have had I had a normal upbringing, you know, in that way. So my mother, you got to go back to when she was like, she got married at 16 and had my sister at 18, had me at 21. She had a crazy abusive outcome.

My grandmother was like someone who wouldn't drink for like two years. and then she would drink straight for like a month and a half and just binge out and like just leave, you know, just rubble in her path. And she would get very, very physically violent. And then my mom picked up that as well. But then she, so she went through all that. She wound up raising us. She moved us from literally these kind of slummy apartments by lying about her age and getting a job as a computer programmer when that was like a new job. And wound up, you know, with us when I was a teenager living in the middle class in Florida.

in a middle-class suburb, and she was the head of quality assurance for Citigorp, a National Bank. You know, she kind of this brilliant mind when it came to math. But after the cancer, and after her first time going through the cancer, I just feel like,

I mean, I didn't realize this until later, obviously, but I think she just started going through her childhood then in the way that she never felt like she got to from the minute that she was 16 years old, she never got to be that 16-year-old or that 17-year-old or do any of those things that you get to do. So I think she just kind of did it at mine and my sister's expense. And for a long period of time, like right up until my sister left, it was my sister and I.

And we, you know, we were, we could, we did this together. We would protect each other through all these situations. And then when she left, there was a sense of like total abandonment. But I think my sister and I realized how close we were even more after that because then we didn't have that sibling kind of, you know, rivalry thing that was going on. We were just two people and she would check in on me to make sure I was okay. And I wasn't, and that's why I left home many, many times, you know, when I was young. My MBialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office

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get an additional $20 off with the code break. Head to Superpower.com. Use the code break at checkout for $20 off your membership. And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention My Ambiotics Breakdown to help support the show. One of the things that I've read that you've talked about is sort of like in the absence of social media, you know, the kind of sort of adolescents that that many kids who were troubled or trying to figure stuff out

or turning to drugs and alcohol and music, you know, to try and sort of fill all those holes. Like, those things existed in this kind of vacuum of just like, this is the behavior that people do when they're trying to figure shit out. You know, when they, often when they come from that. It feels weird because, like, the social media in general,

it feels like there's a tipping point. You know, it feels like there's this side over here where up until here, it was something that we could have used when I was young because I felt very much alone. I felt like I was the only person in the world that felt the way that I was feeling or going through the things I was going through. And maybe if I had had some sort of a connection like that with strangers, I would have had the idea like, oh, this is semi-normal in different circles.

This is how other people live and this is how they cope with it. And this is a mechanism that I can use. And then from this point on, it kind of makes me feel like, oh, everybody else is doing great and I'm not doing great, and I want to kill myself now because this is happy, you know. So I'm not sure if I would have been any better or any worse without it. I know that when I was young and coming up in music,

it was nice that it wasn't around. Just in the fact of like, I feel so much for young people now that get into music or get into acting and they're thrust into this space and then all their mistakes are there forever. Instead of like something that you would learn from like most people would, they don't even get a chance maybe to do that sometimes. So I was glad I didn't have it then.

Anyone who's read, you know, the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, knows that it was mainly written for dudes. Because at the time that it was written, it was written for dudes. And it would like, you know, tell you about, you know, how to deal with, there was a chapter for wives, you know. Alcoholism was really seen as like this like male disease. And of course, the big book and, you know, people talk about that, of course women struggle with alcohol.

as well. But it's interesting that you just identified, you know, two generations of women. And it's not a story that you often hear, meaning a lot of times we hear about like the alcoholic dad and like, it was so hard. And I'm curious, you know, especially in the absence of kind of like a dad being present, I wonder if looking back, you know, now that you're older and you're a parent, do you, do you think differently about sort of the pressures, you know, both on you as a kid and also what it was like for your mom in her struggles to be that woman who was struggling that way when that's not usually what you hear about. Yeah, I mean, I think about it all the time. Like, my dynamic was, you know, talking, you know, through therapy and you realize that like so much of the way that I

behave, I still struggle with drinking issues. I still struggle with trying to keep myself together. And, you know, it was being caught between this unbelievable force coming at you at a thousand miles an hour, which was my mother who would get very manic and get very violent. and we'd have to deal with that situation coming at you. And then this absence of my father in a way. And so like having this, all of this rage going in both directions, but to my father, it's more because he was absent, because he was weak, because it kind of felt like

he should have chose me over the convenience of not having to deal with my mother. You know, and then I felt like my mother should have chose me instead of her own childhood. And then, you know, before my mom passed away, I think that I had to learn to have more distance away from her because it got very, when things started to work out for me, it got much weirder with her.

It became, she became very weirdly sycophanty, but not in like a mother son way. It was like in this, I felt like the little kid from Star Wars that could make people do things with his mind and everybody was scared of him all the time. Like, it was always like, oh, yes, no, you're the best, you're the best. And then she would get drunk and go on radio stations and do interviews and she'd come to shows and rage

and, you know, scream at people. And so I had to have that dissoning. from her. But all that said, before she passed away, I had a much better understanding of her as a human being and not just a parental figure and not just what she wasn't to me. You know, and I kind of felt really, really bad for her. And I wish that she had had someone to talk to about it. The other thing, you know, you have this kind of unbelievable, you know, an unbelievable childhood in many ways. You know, you talk about kind of how you lived and like what it was like and, you know, dealing with your mom's, you know, mental health challenges.

You know, that's how I see it, you know. Yeah. My wife gets so sad. Like, if my wife brings up any story, she'll be like, you know, oh, my God, this makes me think of that one Christmas where, you know, and it's this beautiful hallmark memory. And then I'm like, oh, that's right. I go, you know, I remember the Christmas, like, where my mom had this ex-convict living in our house and, like, we were having Christmas, but then she started making out and

they were, like, doing it under the Christmas tree. and I had to leave the room. And she's just like, why do you, why do you fuck up all my memories? All of them. I was coming like, I guess, no,

I get it. So I guess that's sort of that, that makes me curious about what your perception was, you know, as a teenager, you know, many people, and I know it's more old fashioned

to think of like, oh, you know, using alcohol and using drugs, like that's a choice. That's a moral choice. Like most of us know that is not a choice for many people.

people. It is a, it is a complicated mental health coping mechanism. Yeah, I mean, if it was a choice, then I wouldn't have conversations with myself on someday saying, I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do this. And then later on in the night, find myself doing it and not understanding why. You know, if it's a choice, it's happening from some inner voice inside of me that I haven't quite gotten in touch with yet. Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about you, you, you left home, you know, young. I mean, you were still a kid. You were still a teenager. And You know, I wonder when you think back, like, who was that kid? Like, what, you know, what demons did you already feel you were trying to sort of calm?

And where did music kind of come into that? Like, I was started, I was in a band when I was like 14. And that was like my first kind of bug, you know, but I was still at home. I was still, you know, had it pretty, it wasn't normal by any means, but I was still, you know, waking. up and going to school and I had, I mean, my mom would be gone for days at a time sometimes, and I would be left on my own, but I still have my sister sometimes, and it would be, you know, be like the two of us. So my mom would have this way of, she would become whoever she was dating at the time. And so there was a lot of different guys coming in and out. And if there was a biker,

then she would be off at bike week for a month, because she was a biker now. And, you know, if he was a family man, then we were a family now. And this is how we were going to act. And so we just kind of were a chameleon to, you know, to whatever. whatever she was going through. So when I would leave, like, let's say started at like 15, and I would hitchhike back and forth up to South Carolina to like where my grandmother's house was or down south in Florida to where I had some family.

And it was almost, though, like this romanticized notion of like, you know, in my head, this is going to age me even more. Like in my head, I get picked up on the side of the road. I'm in the back of somebody's truck. I'm in the back. I think I'm in a Corey Hart video. singing never surrender you know and I'm just like I'm like this is like oh this is kind of I'm free like this is a freedom here you know um there it would get sad when like I just didn't have somewhere to be or when I didn't know where to sleep or I need to know where to eat or those kind of things and then it got even sadder when I couldn't go home like the first time I ever went home and she was like no you you know you don't live here anymore but that would be because I trashed our house when she was gone one time you know like the kind of the classic a teen movie party situation situation.

And so then she just couldn't handle it. So I'm not really sure. I don't think until I really, I was in my, you know, maybe late 20s and really, maybe after I met my wife, that I really started to kind of examine cause and effect

or reasons why I was doing the things that I did, you know, and I just kind of just chalked it up to just, I would write songs about it and be like, oh, I'm just fucked up, that's who I am. And never really kind of delved into it. until my first therapist. But my first therapist, like on our fourth session, fell asleep in the middle of our session

and then said that I was boring her. No. Yeah. And so that put me off therapy for, like, a while. And now I finally found someone that, you know, that I really can relate to and that kind of feels like she understood. I'm sorry. I think we need to take a minute and think about this.

Does she fell asleep? I sleep. Just right across to me in the chair just, and I'm like, hey. No. Hey, she goes, like, and then I was like, she doubled down. I'm like, so I, you know, she just kind of lost you there every second. She goes, well, you were boring me. No, that's horrible.

So for a minute there, I just, I was, that could have put me off of therapy altogether. That's horrible. Sorry, I want her license revoked. I'm not sure. I mean, there's some degree of therapy that exists at all times when you're writing. Because there's an inward looking that happens. only the thing about songwriting is sometimes you're masking what you're writing about to make it more universally for other people to kind of understand the emotion that you're talking

about maybe not the actual thing but the emotion from that thing and then that way you're unless you're communicating better with yourself you're masking it from yourself as well so even for years and years and years I can look back now at some of the songs on the first record and second record and be like oh shit now I know where that comes from now or I know where that comes from now. Did you always write? Like, when did you, when did your writing start? I was writing, but I kind of feel like it was all very superficial from the outside

in. Like, I was trying to write songs that I think would convey to other people so they would feel about me the way I wanted them to feel about me. So, and mostly that just means I was like writing Bad Lionel Richie songs and trying to get late in high school because I was a weird kid. And it was like, it was the only, you know, like, that was my only thing that I had because I lived in Florida. I didn't know anything about cars or racing or hunting or football.

So, like, if you're a weird kid like me, the only thing you got is you show up at a party with the Lionel Richie songbook tucked up under your arm so that, you know, when all the football players pass out, you can try and play for their girlfriends. And that's my move. That was the only move I had. When I was like 20 or 21 in that range,

I wrote 3 a.m. And that was a song I wrote about my mother having cancer and about dealing with that. And that was the first time that I wrote a song that A, made me kind of understand that there could be a catharsis in that. And it wasn't just something, you know, that I was doing to pick up girls.

And then also, it was the first song that I wrote that I was like, oh, I think other people should hear this. I think this is a song that's good enough for other people to listen to. So you started like in your early teens just as a way to get attention. And then it sounds like, which is still really, like, fascinating

because, you know, while it may have been your only, you know, approach to women, like, it's still a hard approach. Like, you have to, you know, like, that's, you have to, you have to put a lot of work in. So, like, you're clearly showing signs of being uniquely creative in that moment. I also do, I think 30 years later, the doing things to get attention mechanism is still deep, deep in me. I mean, my job for a living is going, hey, look at me, listen to me. I'd like to know a little bit about, you know, sort of what happens between 17 and 3 a.m. Because those seem like the most potentially dangerous years when I kind of, you know, look back at sort of where you were, where you could have gone, right?

How did we get from 17 to 3 a.m.? At 17, I was arrested for armed burglary. Now, what it really was happening was, I was with a, you know, just a group of kids, we used to, we would steal cars or we would, you know, steal things from cars or we would, we would break into people's homes and rearrange their furniture. What? We would take anything. We would just break in, it was like a prank. Maybe we would take some beer out of their fridge or something. And most of these were like people that we knew and either didn't like or were you high? I want to know, were you high? I didn't really start smoking weed until I was like 19 or 20. So no. That feels more like a, that feels for me, that's like a drunk activity.

No, we were, we were the, you know, that was weekend binging, high school weekend binging, you know, time. But this was just like wanting to find a place where you fit in and I wanted these kids to like me. And so I wanted to be the cool kids. So I always wanted to take it one step farther. And like one time there was a gun involved. and so I got arrested and it was armed burglary because the gun was in the house. And then I got arrested once for stealing a car. Both these times I got community service.

Both these times my community service was so easy that I didn't really learn anything from it at all. All my friends at this point were starting to go in to get arrested. So I was like all these things were heading in this direction. And then I started working. writing, you know, like really writing. And I wanted to start a band to kind of showcase this writing. And this, I think that was the kind of thing where this, I met another group of misfits that just weren't as dangerous to be around. You know, they still were very unconventional, which I liked. They still, you know, they didn't really fit in. They were still misfits in every sense

of the word, but they weren't toxic. And they, you know, they weren't going to, you know, these, they took me in. It made me feel like I had a family. And that was, I think, everything about this life since then. Well, and some of the, you know, when I look at sort of some of your music influences, you know, obviously, you know, you come from the South. You come from a beautiful musical tradition of country, you know, and of blues and things like that. But, you know, there's, in a Rolling Stone interview, you talked about, you know, moving into like Billy Joel and Elton John, right?

which are these really kind of like sensitive, poetic, lyrical people. And then, you know, I was introduced to Elvis Costello when I was 16. And it was like my head exploded because I did not know that a young man, right, could have this much like anger and brilliance and excitement and power musically. And, you know, two other influences that you mentioned, which, you know, I'm a little bit younger than you. but, you know, the cure and the femmes. Like, that was, you know, that was late 80s. Like, that was a real kind of revolution in the way that especially young people could access

really deep emotion in music. And I think that's what resonates. It was crazy. And that was a girl. I mean, I was a radio head up until that point. And I was beholden to whatever was happening on radio. And so, you know, I, you know, I was, I think we were talking like right around. hair metal time, you know, like, like pop hair metal time. And I was dating, I dated this girl

who just like gave me a full tutorial, just would sit down and just start throwing cassettes at me. Now this, this is violent films and these are the cure. And this is, you know, and just going through everything. And it just blew my mind. And I, and I went from there, took a left field for a little while into like some serious punk. You know, I was into like some minor threat and black flag and and uh and also because like i that group of misfits when i was like 17 that group of misfits really appealed to me the alt kids they were you know a lot of them were drama kids and if they weren't drama kids they were like across the street from the school smoking before school started you know they were they had their their misfits jacket safety

pinned on to the back of their zone you know like i was like these are these are my people and i really And I felt like that just completely was a 180 from everything that I kind of was used to, you know? Okay, so my next question, because now I'm all excited about this musical, like this musical phase of your life because also you were straddling, you know, you're straddling these worlds.

You were straddling this like world of what you were raised in and what you were trying to leave and what held some promise, you know, for essentially what turned into the rest of your life. one of the things that I think about when I think about, you know, like the first time I heard Matchbox 20, you know, you really were able to straddle pop music, meaning music that was popular to a lot of people and had a really broad appeal while also still maintaining, it sounds like a lot of the sort of heart and the grit that you felt you needed to communicate. Did it ever occur to you like, oh, I don't want to be famous for my music. I don't want to be a pop star or, I want my music to appeal to this kind of person, or were you just like, I'm going to make music

and see what happens? Yeah, I mean, I never really thought about it. I mean, I learned early, early on that, that, I mean, I wanted to write much cooler music than I wound up writing. You know, like, I wanted to be, I wanted to, I wanted to be Wilco. You know, like when A.M. came out. Like, I wanted to be Jeff Tweedy.

Or I wanted to be Tom Petty. And, like, it would always be like a little bit of this, but then it would always go back to, here comes the Elton John, here comes the Lionel Richie, here comes, you know. And so I embraced that this was just who I am. And it became more of like, I sit down, I write something, I write a few songs, and then I look back at them and say, well, I guess this is who I am right now.

And then that is my musical identity. And it became, felt more true and it felt more real, and it didn't feel like I had to kind of, like, think too hard about crafting stuff. I would just keep writing until things struck me as true. but that said I always also

knew that there was a connection between if I did well that that means more people were listening to my music and of course I wanted people to listen to my music so I never had a fear of fame you know I was

I think I was more like bringing on and also you got to remember in 30 years ago the idea of that was much different than it is today just the mechanics of what that means for people know who you are

is so different today And so, you know, back then there was, it was still this great romanticized version in music that existed probably since 1950s. You know, I'm going to go start a band and a guy from a label is going to come see me and then he's going to like my song and I'm going to make a record and it's going to get played on the radio. And then people are going to come see me live and I'm a fucking rock star. And like that was it. One, two, three, four. And, you know, it was like the last time I think where you could kind of do things traditionally like that. Right.

I mean, you know, I like to remind my children who are 15 and 18. like there was a time, I mean, video did kill the radio star. There was a time when musicians were not attractive and no one cared. Like, I didn't know what anybody looked like because I was just listening to like, oh, Sherry, our love will hold on. I was like, yes, it will. I didn't know in the late 70s or early 80s what anyone looked like, you know. Boston?

Nobody saw Boston. I wouldn't know Boston if they walked up to me on the street today. It's funny. My son, so my son just teaches. turned 25 this year. He is a musician. He graduated from Berkeley College of Music and just moved out to L.A. I just did a corporate show last weekend.

He is now the guitar player in my solo band. What? Yeah, my guitar player, I've had the same guitar player in my solo band since 2004, and he kind of retired from playing live over COVID. And my son took over, and she's got the gig now. So he's my right-hand man on stage. What is that like? That's amazing.

And you know what the best part is? is when I mentioned it to him about doing it. He wasn't sure at first. He didn't want it to take away from his band and his focus and what he's doing. But the deciding factor for him was, and he said, and this made me want to cry, he was like, you know, the best part is I'll get to spend more time with you than ever. Oh. And I was just like, oh, come on.

Here, take the rest of my money. I mean, what an amazing way to be able to connect, too. Yeah, it's through that language. I mean, we've been able to do it whenever he's, you know, he's around and we play music and we write music and we do stuff together. But doing it in that full, like, long form, two hours playing back and forth. It was a really great experience. I'm really looking forward to now getting back on the road for real. This is just a technical question that I don't know the answer to.

Do you write everything? Like, I know who you are in Matchbox 20 and I know the names of your bandmates. And I know that they are incredible musicians. but like most people think of like Rob Thomas and also like you've obviously done solo stuff are you the main writer? Like you just write? I mostly was.

I mean, for the first couple of records, it was only me. And then the next couple records it would, the next record it was like a couple songs by Paul and then the rest was me. And then I made a solo record. And I think when I got back, the guys had gotten a lot better as writers. I wasn't as precious about the real estate on a record

because I had an outlet now in my solo career to be able to do things. And so we did a greatest hits record that had six new songs attached to it. There was a song called How Far We've Come was the single from that. And that we wrote all six of those together. And now this last record we just put out,

there's like five songs on there that Paul wrote by himself that I'm singing. And that's like never happened before. But there were just really good songs and I wanted them on the record. I want to talk about Unwell because, you know, I think I read a quote where you said something like at that time

you thought that taking care of your mental health was writing a song about mental health. Can you talk a bit about also like, is it scary to put a lot of yourself in lyrics that way? Do you feel it opens you up for something or do you see it as an opportunity, you know, to help others? Like, how does that work with that kind of song? I mean, I don't know even,

if the words mental and health were bandied together and thrown around as much as they were when I first wrote that song. I'm not sure that it was as on the forefront and I'm not sure it was being talked about. And so I don't know that that in itself was at the forefront of my mind. You know, I just knew that I got a lot of anxiety. I was like smack dab in the middle. I think this was our third record. I was right in the middle of a career where that was kind of an impediment. you know, like for what I did for a living, you know, not being comfortable around other people was, you know, could have been a problem, which would lead to more drinking, more drugs, more all of those things to try and kind of like level out myself where I could have that social lubricant to feel okay to be around people again and be that version of myself.

And then I became that version so much that I thought that's the one they people want to see. And then I would be letting people down if I wasn't that fun guy version of myself. And so unwell, I think, was, again, I don't believe. that I was consciously saying, I'm going to write a song about this. I just feel like when I was done, I realized the itch that it scratched. And I was like, oh, okay, you know, that was it. And then it was years and years later where people started to realize that it was okay to say I'm not okay. It was okay to not be okay.

And it was okay. And it wasn't just, it was something that, you know, you see all of a sudden, like, I remember that when it really hit me the first time, there was a, he was an NFL player who had been going through, going through rehab and going through depression and was talking about that song unwell, being this song that helped him through it. And I, that was like one of the first times

I even thought about someone that has that much outer strength having that kind of a problem. You know what I mean? Or that one who has, like, who has a career together, who has all of these things that seemingly go in for them, you know, and then you're realizing, I'm one of those people going, well, what's wrong with you? You have it great, you know.

When did the title come into the writing process? Was it, you know, afterwards? Was it as the starting point? It was, I think it was the first thing I wrote. And it was actually a little faster when I wrote it. It was, and dun dun da da da da da da da da da da da. And I think I had that melody going and then that line came out.

And it was Paul from Matchbox, was like, dude, you're crazy. You got to slow that down. That's a ballot. That's not a, you know, he's like, it sounds like fucking Nelly right now. You need to, you need to tone it down. And I was glad he said that. I'm curious about, can you talk a little bit about your relationship with, with alcohol or, you know, whatever kind of category of alcoholism you like to talk about or, you know, meaning the larger, you know, the God-shaped hole, as, as we would say. You know, I think alcohol is a social lubricant is something that a lot of people can relate to. You know, I always say, like, I'm a hell of a lot more fun with, you know, a glass and a half of something in me.

Yeah. And, you know, there's that notion of if you want to find out why you're doing something, stop doing it. And that really is, like, you know, once you stop, once you stop allowing yourself to be helped, right? What a lot of us are left with was like, I think I'm an asshole. Like, I think I'm just depressed and grumpy. and nobody wants to be around me like this, so why wouldn't I partake? What part of that speaks to you?

That's just my experience. I don't know. Every piece of it. Like I was going through before therapy, you know, I was going through, my wife has had a lot of health issues that we've dealt with for almost the last 20 years. She had brain surgery.

It's been, you know, lots of doctors, lots of, you know, long trips to doctors for long times, and it's something that her and I've been dealing with. and when I would go, I would go through these jags where I, where I had no limiter whatsoever. And that was, that's kind of the thing. It's, I like, I get to that lubrication point, but then I don't know when it stops. And I, and I just keep going and keep going. And then I'm that guy.

And then I'm that guy that, you know, like tonight we're going out with a great group of friends that we haven't seen in a long time. And my wife, very, very sweetly will say, so baby, can you hold it together? Are you going to be okay? and I'm like, I promise you, you know, I'm going to be okay. I feel that, I mean, that relationship with it all the time. And like you had said, when we were before therapy and when we were in the deepest of, you know, when Madi's going through something, my thought was all of this heartache is still going to be waiting for me if I'm sober.

All of this stuff is nothing is going to change. If I change, I will make this change. The only thing that will be different is I'll be miserable. all the time instead of just between the hours of when I wake up in 6 o'clock at night, you know, and it's starting at 6 o'clock is when feel good Rob can come into the picture. But then after therapy, I realized that even though I still drink way too much, getting a handle on it, not becoming that guy, being able to stop at some point in the evening and can continue on with the rest of the evening, it did make my life better.

It did make our relationship better. It did help in so many ways, and it wasn't futile. You know what I mean? And it wasn't just like me doing something performatively just so that my wife can see it and I can make her feel better. This was something that when she saw that effort, I saw in more effort, and it kept building on that. And so that's the more when I'm trying to,

a world that I'm trying to live in now. Do you do individual therapy, couples therapy, both? I'm curious what Rob Thomas's therapy experience is like. It's just right now it's still just Zoom. solo once a week. She is a therapist, but she was also a couple's therapist. And the first few sessions, she had so much good insight to our relationship

that I almost wanted to turn it into a situation that she was our therapist. But then I, speaking to her, I had to realize once that at some point, I was going to cross a line and speak some truths that are come from me that I tell her that are only meant for her to hear and at some point that would sully any relationship

that she would have with my wife. You know? And so there was just one point where she knew too much and we had gone too far and she could only be mine. And my wife and I are still having the conversation about trying to find maybe for us. And you know what's weird is that it's not when you're at the worst. It's not when you're at each other's throats.

I mean, we've been together for 25 years. We've had, I know it's an old adage, but we've had fights that last longer than a lot of our friends' relationships were. And you can just, you know how to just table that stuff? Like, you know how like you could be in a really good fight and then pause the fight because something's on TV? Like, no, look, that's a commercial I was telling you about. But I find that it's not when we're in the deepest of the holes.

It's not when we're at each other's throats. It's not when things are the worst. it's when things started to really turn around and when we start to get along better and better that we're like, hey, maybe we should talk to somebody. You know, maybe this experience could be even better if we kind of learn how to communicate better, if we had better love language,

if we had just better ways that we speak to each other. What's your love language, Rob? Well, it used to be way more toxic than it is now. Because if you hear a song like Push, You know, it's something like push is written from a young, angry guy who's only been a manipulative relationships his entire life and believes that that's what love is. That is the model for love. And that's because that was every model that my mom had shown me in any relationship she had been in. That's every relationship that I had seen with any member of my family was, you know,

there was some sort of manipulation involved. When I met my wife, we were on the road and her mother, who is, since my mother's passed away, she's my mom. And I remember the first time her mom called me, and we were, on the road and I hung up the phone and I looked at Mottie and I'm just like, what's her deal? You know, like, what's her angle? And she's like, well, what did she say? I was like, she wanted to know how I was doing.

The nerve. Like, what the fuck is that? And so I honestly was so uncomfortable and I untrusting with someone with, because once things that started to do well for me, a lot of my relationships, without even me, you realize it were transactional. There was either the people that are surrounding me were on a payroll or there was something that I could do for them or they could, you know, or they could do for me. And so, you know, the entrance more and more into my life of these kind of friends who

wanted nothing from me and I wanted nothing from other than, you know, the feeling that I get when we're around and the information that we can share about life, that was a huge shift in me as just as, you know, the way that I thought the rest of the world worked. It's a good time to talk more about push because it's had a little bit of a renaissance, as it were, with Barbie. On my end, I just got an email like you do from your publisher saying Greta Gerwig is making a movie, which had me right there. I love Greta Gerwig since, you know, back when she was just an actress,

before she was a filmmaker, I've loved all of her films. Then Marga Robbie, then Ryan Gosling. And then so my first thought was, knowing her, knowing this song, knowing this situation, knowing that it's Ken's favorite song, I was like, okay, now, I'm going to say yes to this, a thousand percent, just because I want to see Ryan Gossin's beautiful face sing my song.

But I knew that in some way I was going to be taking the piss out of. But in all honesty, I thought it was going to be much worse and in a much different direction than it actually turned out to be. Like when I think about young angry me Who felt like I was being taken for granted You know in that way And you don't have any other way to deal with it

Because you don't know emotion words You know and you're just like Then you go out and you write a you know A rock song that goes Hur Ha Ha Ha ha ha ha ha you know And because it's the 90s And that's how we all sounded And so like seeing it in that context

I had I just laughed very very hard And I thought it was really well placed With this song sort of having, you know, a next generation, another generation, you know, of people who might not have heard it the first time around, when I think about, you know, your career, like the longevity of your career, the fact that you're still touring, the fact that you still kind of get up on a stage, do you, I'm going to ask this in the nicest way possible, is there part of you that ever feels like, like, I'm tired, I'm old, my body is not what it once was to live? this kind of rock star life. What does it feel like? No. I mean, you know, one of it is my, all my heroes and people that have become

my mentors and friends over the years, people like Carlos and people like Willie, Mick, they've been doing this for a very long time at a very high level. I'm in better shape now than I was in my 20s, really. You know, like when I met my wife, I was 30 pounds heavier, you know, than I am now. I really didn't take care of myself.

There was a lot of cocaine flowing through a lot of places and so I feel like maybe that was why. Like my body is like, oh, this is what it feels like to feel okay. I do think that my relationship changes, you know, like if you listen back to the first Matchbox 20 records, you have songs like push in 3 a.m. and real world. But there's also a lot of these kind of like overly angsty kind of moments. You know, these songs like busted.

They're just like, like, ha, so ta, ta. And nobody's really that angry, right? And now, like, as we get older, we can't really play those songs and we can't listen to them with a straight face because it just sounds like manufactured angs to some degree. And we take out the other parts that really still feel sweet to us and they still feel like home to us. But, I mean, there's a lot of songs that we can't even listen to

just because I do feel too old to have that kind of point of view. Like, I feel too old to dress up, like, to worry about if I look rock star. You know what I mean? Like those kind of things. Like, I don't need to dress up like Lenny Kravitz with a bamboo vest every time I walk out at my house or, you know, my Ed Hardy T's or whatever. You know, like, because I say Ed Hardy because there's a lot of dudes, you know, in my neighborhood, and especially like a lot of guys who were like players from bands, like from the 90s,

and they're still kind of holding on to this aesthetic of like, you know, and like you can just tell the guy. You know the guy. Yeah. I think I'm too old for all of that. unfortunately, like in my 40s, I started to be more animated than I ever have been,

jumping off the pianos into climbing things, and that's not going to last long, because my, because this knee is saying no, no more. But at 51, I mean, I, I'm just, I'm glad that I've learned every one of these songs in a much slower, more intimate acoustic style

because one day they'll all wind up there. And in terms of also what it's like to sort of be with a band for this long, I think there's some quote that like, like you're all in therapy. You know, it's like a different phase of being rock stars. How have those relationships kind of shifted? You know, that's a long time to be in creative collaboration with people.

What is that like? Well, I mean, we have a lot of breaks because when I start, you know, the solo records take me away for a year and a half, two years, three years. About the time we get back together, we're genuinely excited to see each other. Now, I mean, when that first started happening, there was a lot of resentment to me wanting to do something solo. There was a lot of resentment from the idea that if I was working, they couldn't work. And they would feel like the band, even like now, the band builds some momentum, but then I go away and I do solo stuff and then I build some momentum and it just kind of

keeps never, they feel like never really go into that potential. But as we got older, they're no longer resentful about it, or at least, like Paul said it the best, he's like, it bums me out when you're out touring for the summer and I can't tour. But you're one of my best friends in the world, and I couldn't ask you to do something that I know makes you, or to not do something that I know makes you so happy and really makes you feel fulfilled. So I couldn't be the person to ask you not to do that. That is kind of a major difference in our relationship now. When it used like, we would just be at each other's throats over something and we would, you know, but now it's very, very like, listen, when you said that, it made me feel like you don't hear me. Like, there's a

whole lot of that going on in our relationships now. I wonder if you can speak a little bit to your, you know, chart-topping, award-winning, record-breaking collaboration with Carlos Santana. You know, I wonder if you can talk a little bit about how that collaboration came about. I saw Carlos Santana open for Bob Dylan many, many years ago. But, yeah, I, I, I'm curious how that came about. I'll be honest, just as a musical person, like, I wouldn't have thought to put the two of you together. And then that became the song that I heard the most in my life that year.

Yes. Sorry about that. It's okay. I mean, I know the whole song verbatim, exactly how you sing it. But can you talk a little bit about how that collaboration came about and sort of what that did for your life and your career? It was such a different angle, you know, to add to all of your other achievements. Well, I mean, we just come off. of that first record, which it was a three-year process of play into nobody in clubs.

And then like the next year we're playing like big theaters. And then the next year it's we're playing arenas all over the world. And that all happened on this one record. And at the end of it all, I think the record had sold like 15 million records. It was kind of insane. And so I literally felt like we, I get on a bus and I didn't, I didn't even have a home when I got on the bus. you know and then three years later I get off the bus

I'm in the serious relationship I'm now in New York City I'm getting this apartment in Soho and then I'm there kind of like I don't know who I am now because it's me but it's this different version of me but this other version of me

has only existed out on the road in the middle of it I've never known who this version of me was like going out to dinner or living in like a neighborhood or going to a party like I'm not sure what that is and then there was a guy that lived right around on the corner for me in Soho.

I got a call that he was working on this record for Carlos Santana and he had started this track and they didn't like the melody and the lyric and wanted to know if I could rewrite a melody and lyric. And so I wrote most of it and then went back and him and I, this guy named me Tallsure, we hammered it out. And then I thought for the longest time,

like that was my, that was the end of it for me in that song. I was just gonna write. I was really excited at the time about writing songs for other people that I wasn't gonna sing. That was like a huge point of something that I wanted to do is be a writer.

And like a couple weeks later, I was actually, I was trying for George Michael because George, me and George have the same manager. And I was like, I just thought he would sing and I thought he'd kind of be great at it. He told me years later that, no, he wouldn't have done it. So I was like, okay, good. And then Clive called.

And I guess Carlos, I sang the demo. So Carlos, he's like, well, what about, literally he's like, what about the guy on the demo? Like, does he sing? And they're like, yeah, no, he's got a band. He's doing pretty good. Carlos is like, well, I believe him. Let's just have him do it.

Wow. That's where I wound up doing it. Maybe your demo is going to get picked up. Well, I was just going to say, like, give it your best on your demo is the take-home message from Rob Thomas on that. I didn't even know that it was the single because I had heard, like, you got to remember, what I knew about that record was that it had Wyclef, who was giant at the time. It had Eric Clapton, who wasn't racist yet. It had, like, like, like all these huge, huge stars on it.

And so even when people would write about it, they wouldn't write about Smooth or Me. And I remember Paul once going, dude, what do you expect? Everybody's really, really famous and you're not. Like, that's just the way, you know. And then I was walking down the street in Soho, coming out of my apartment, like, right on like Spring and Green,

and there was this convertible full of girls, and it was stopped at the red light, and they were blaring smooth out of the car. And that's how I found out that it was a single. That was me, Rob. That was me at the corner of Spring and Green. That was me. I was like, fuck, it's blossom.

And then I, so then I, you know, they, literally from that point on, though, like, I thought that I had had an unreasonable understanding of what a successful song is. But this was another world. I mean, Carlos was this legend. Supernatural was the album that year that was like the thriller of that year. It was a worldwide. immediate smash. And it was like, I mean, to this day,

if I meet someone, especially from another country, and they're like, oh, I love that song, I know what song that they're talking about. You know, I've had like 20 singles, but I know what they're talking about. It's unbelievable. That's such a great story. And I have a weird relationship with that song

and that, like, when it came out, I was in love with it. Then, like, a bunch of other people, I got really, really sick of it and didn't want to hear it again. And then, like, 20 years later, it started to creep back in. And I was just kind of like,

all right, you know, I could live with you now. Now, you know, I think it's because right off the bat, there's an element of cheese to, man, it's a hot one. Like, it's just. Yeah, but I love it. It's so cheesy, but somehow it's the only line that would work. That's so awesome. Do you have that relationship with other songs of yours? Like the, you know, falling in love with them, maybe falling out of love with them?

I, like, there's a, the majority of songs. after like a five-year period, I'm fine if I never hear them again. But not to say, I love to play them. Like, I still enjoy that relationship that I have with an audience when we're there

and like re-examining them and kind of like reworking them and those kind of things. It's just, maybe it's more because when I hear them, I hear recording limitations. I hear things that I would have done different or maybe, you know, things that I would have changed

because every time you make a record, every time you do anything, you're doing your best version of you at that time. And then hopefully if you're growing and changing and evolving, you can look back on that years later and you're seeing it from this newly acquired point of view that you have from working at it so hard that you got better and better at it,

that you look back and you're like, oh, man, I would have done that differently or I hate the way my voice sounds or, you know, that kind of thing. How does that apply to a relationship you've been in, you know, for over two decades? Because what you described is, I think, what a lot of people who have been in a, you know, any long-term relationship would say, like, I did the best I could and you keep, you know, kind of getting better and getting more

perspective. You know, I know that there are some people in the music industry who've been in relationships for a long time, but not a ton. I was really, I was really impressed. I mean, I'm sure it's a lot of work for both of you. But yeah, I wonder kind of how fatherhood, you know, changed your relationship and what that's sort of been like. So the dynamic, though that was a little different was when I met my wife we started dating I had to, we fell in love immediately

we knew that there was something here but I had to tell her that I had a son who was about to be born and that almost sent her that was I actually wrote the song If You're Gone the night that my son was born because my wife

now had basically told me that she didn't think that she could do this like she saw a that in front of her, and that didn't involve somebody who had already had a son, that didn't involve somebody who had this baggage with him, and that, you know, that was baggage that she wanted to acquire with the person that she was going to marry or be with. And so I wrote, if you're gone, that night in Denver, when my son was born, for my wife to try and, you know, and just explain to her that I really, really wanted to try at this. So we started off at that weird dynamic.

we started immediately traveling the world together. And I was, I was like to think that I was, I was more famous than she thought that I was, but less famous than I thought that I was. You know, like when I met her, push was just becoming a really big single. And so I was like, I got a fucking song on the radio. I got a song on MTV back when that was a big deal.

And my wife was like, you're just a dude with a song on the radio. You're just a dude with a video. Like, it's not that big of a deal. You know, she's like, I'm a, she's a model. She's lived all over the world. I was like a small fish to her. And that bummed me out.

But it was good because, so we got to experience so much of it together. Like, I got to do a lot of it alone and kind of get, get things out of your system and kind of just see, like, see what happens when you do this and what happens here? And what does that button do? And then I wound up, you know, with her. And we got to do all of these things. together. So we kind of feel like we were kids looking back now. I mean, we were, you know, in our mid to late 20s, but now when I see people in the middle of late 20s, those are kids to me.

And so I kind of realize now how young we really were and how much we were forming. And now we're kind of still doing it. Like we got to see our 30s together. We got to see our 40s together and go through all of those things. And I've gotten, you know, to be closer to my son that I think I probably ever would have been had I stayed in a toxic relationship with his mother, who I now, of course, have a better relationship than I would have as well. You've talked a bit about what panic attacks feel like. And I think it was around the time that your mom passed, which, you know, it sounds like you had a very complicated, you know, relationship with her.

And even when people don't have a complicated relationship, that kind of loss, you know, can bring up a lot. we get a lot of questions here on this podcast about anxiety and about panic attacks. I wonder if you might be willing to share a little bit about what it kind of felt like for you and what are some of the things that you've done to learn to manage that. I mean, this feeling of like, in some ways it's like you're going to float away. It's hard to explain to how you feel a million pounds and weightless at the exact same time. And you feel like, but you feel like a lead balloon that's about to float away.

and I feel my heart in like every part of my body. And it feels hard, not necessarily fast. It just feels, whom, boom, boom, boom. And I feel like I can feel it my knees. I can feel it everywhere. And if I fixate on it, it makes it worse. And it just keeps, it keeps coming and keeps coming and keeps coming. And it would get to a point where I could make it come on just because I would be,

sometimes I would just be so excited that I would just be so excited that I, I was doing something and not having a panic attack. And that thought would make it start going, oh, yeah, and then it would just kind of come creeping in. And also, it would get into places where, you know, you talk about being anxious. You're talking about having anxiety. Like, at the lowest, like, the lowest level of that, like, I'm going to a movie. I sit down in the theater.

The movie's about to start. That sense of anticipation would start to all of a sudden make me feel like I was going to have a panic attack. And I just sit through the entire movie with my hands. sweating. I can't really eat anything, but I don't want anybody to know about it. And then years later, when I started to talk about it more, it became just something where the guys would know. You know, if we're rehearsing and I'm laying on the floor on my back singing like this, they're just stepping over me because they know that I'm okay. They know I'm going to be fine.

They just know I need to kind of work it out. I'm doing some breathing and I'm just kind of getting myself where I need to be. Because it used to be Xanax that was a big, you know, helper for me. I didn't love the way it made me feel. And then because I had this bad relationship with drinking, I would just roofie myself all the time because it's not a great combination. And so then I would overdrink. And then the next day, your body feels so depleted.

You're so dehydrated from all of that. Then you're closer to one of those then. So like just trying to kind of find out what the triggers were. When there was no trigger, find out what the trigger still was, like what was really going on there, you know. And it still is to some degree. I haven't had a full-on panic attack in quite some time, but I felt panicky.

Like I feel my palms start to get sweaty. I start to feel a little bit of, you know, my heart beating, but I've kind of gotten this place where my inner dialogue can scream. Like I have this scream inside of me that shuts it down. That it's like, no, that's not what's happening. that's not where you are. There's no purpose. There's no fight or flight right now. You're not fighting. You're not flying.

You're, you know, you're fucking, you're watching new girl. You're going to be fine. Do you have any other things that you do? Do you exercise? Like, are you a meditation person? Like, I'm curious what other parts of your, you know, especially like you said, you're like in better shape than you were, you know, in your 20s. Like, what else do you do that sort of keeps your mind and your body feeling healthy?

I think exercise has really helped a lot. And like full disclosure, like everything I started doing for exercise was purely for aesthetics. Health was not in mind at all. But it was just because, you know, I just didn't want to go back to being a little fat kid again.

And so I would just work out. It had unintended other side effects, you know, where it just had made me feel a lot better. And now I'm way more in touch with those, with that aspect of it. And I really enjoy it. I feel so much better when I'm just kind of get a second where it's me and my heart rate. And that's a part of it too.

Like my wife always would laugh at me before because I would hold my, hold this like I was having a heart attack or something. And she's, but she would also notice that I'm not, I don't have a watch. I'm not counting anything, right? Like I'm just, I'm holding it. But I have this way of trying to sink up my breathing with the heart rate. And so when I get a hold of where my heart rate's at and I set my breathing with it and I put those in some sort of a harmony, it brings me right back to where I need to be. And so she's gotten used to that now. And she'd be like, you're not dying. You're okay. You're not dying.

It's really been such a pleasure to talk to you. Can we plug anything? I know you do amazing charity work. What can we tell people about where to check you out? Well, please go and check out sidewalk angels foundation.org. It's the foundation when Madi and I started about 20 years ago. We work with no-kill animal shelters. and animal rescues around the entire world. And it's been 20 years now. We've raised millions to try and get everything from medical runs and medical facilities in places

to help facilitate, like, really big rescues from all over. And just build facilities, maybe just from the ground up for anybody who has their LLC and that, you know, we get our attentions on. I'm back once again with the Matchbox 20 band, and we're going out to Australia in February. We have a new record out where the light goes. You can find it.

I guess, I mean, honestly, it's so funny. I guess you can just type it in somewhere and they'll tell you where to find it anywhere. Thank you so much. It's been really a pleasure to have you here. Thanks. You guys are pleasant. It's very nice conversation. Man, it's a hot one.

I was singing all the songs while he was talking to us. It's very hard not to. I mean, you are basically running jukebox in your head at all. things. Like, I, I don't know that he understands that I literally, I sing literally in his voice. Like, every intonation, every inflection. Can you do the first

stanza of push? No. Yeah. No, I'm not gonna do it. Everyone wants you to. No. I don't want to. People are live tweeting me. I don't know if I've ever been good enough. I'm a little bit rusty and

I think my head is cavening. I'm telling you that people are live tweeting even though that this is a pre-recorded episode. Mostly I harmonize with him. Because there's beautiful harmonies. Like, it's really, so I'm usually, I usually sing backup for Rob Thomas. We didn't even ask him if he needed a backup singer

for his solo band. I think he's good. It could be you, his son, and him? I think he looks, he's fine. He hasn't heard you sing before, though. I don't think he needs to be singing with him. if he wants to do a Hanukkah album

My favorite thing was when he said that he always wanted to write cooler songs than he did That was awesome That was amazing Um No that was really He's really

He's very lovely Some people call him like The nicest man in rock I mean he's very very sweet And just gave us a lot of his time Very very appreciative That we got to talk to him Is that?

Are we the Rob Thomas of podcasting? I want to push you We are not the Rob Thomas of podcasting But We wanted to be cooler than we are. But we're really nice. No, we're smooth. Can we get a little bit of the lyrics from if you're gone?

No. You can go ahead. Could you imagine that that was about him meeting his wife, but not thinking that they could be together because of his son? I can't. And they've been together for how many years? I didn't know the 3 a.m. was about his mom dying. That's like, I didn't know.

She only sleeps when it's raining and she screams and her voice is straining. Oh, that's a tough... We've just depressed ourselves. Well, we hope you've enjoyed this episode. We did a little uplift. Come on. Don't leave us like that. Also, that he sang the demo

and that, like, and Santana was like, can this kid, like, is he really a guy? Like, sounds pretty good. Can we get the guy from the demo? Yes, the guy from the demo is Rob Thomas. That's like a number two Billboard song, like it's said. I heard that song so many times.

I did, da, da, da, da, da, da. Okay, sorry. It's just like the ocean under the moon. It's the same as the emotion that I get from you. She's not looking this up on the internet. Give me your heart, make it real. Just forget about it, Jonathan. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.

These are all just from her head. She's not even looking them up. It's my ambiolyx breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or. Two, one, fix you one. And now she's gonna break down.