Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Simon Helberg: Bust Through the Crack in the Door

Episode Date: May 3, 2022

Simon Helberg (The Big Bang Theory, Florence Foster Jenkins, As They Made Us) joins Mayim in studio to discuss the preparation he did and fears he had playing his complicated character in Mayim’s new film, As They Made Us. He takes us through the darkest moments of his mental health journey, his OCD stemming from his attempts to avoid failure, and his motivation to seek professional treatment. Mayim considers the shift she witnessed in Simon’s mental health on The Big Bang Theory set. They discuss their entries into the Big Bang cast, what happened once the show grew in popularity, and the mental health quirks and stereotypes of each of the characters. Simon and Mayim explain the process of finding themselves after the success of the series and what it was like for Simon to perform an impression of Stephen Hawking in front of the late physicist on the set of the show. Trailer for As They Made Us : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU-b6NoDkiU&t=0s Simon Helberg's impressions on CONAN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7xQkJYwyi0 BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You're either being modest or you actually are overlooking something, which is a really a fundamental part of the shift, was you coming onto the show. No, we don't. No, no, I'm serious. And Melissa, you guys came out of the show and the show grew an extra heart like an octopus. And seriously, the show that people remember is the show with the seven of us. Hi, I am Biolic. And welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break down the things that make us break down.

It's my and biolics breakdown She's going to break it down for you Because you know she knows a thing or two And now she's going to break Boy, do we have a treat in store for you Anybody a Big Bang Theory fan? I think you're going to like today Anybody not a Big Bang Theory fan?

I think you're going to like today also But first, the person who's always likable, Jonathan Cohen. Hello, my name. Hi, everyone. Jonathan, you are remote today. Zooming in. Like you do.

This is an exciting episode. It's a very exciting episode. We didn't get to ask him if he could help you stop biting your nails. Simon Helberg is with us today. That's right. Former nail biter, recovered nail biter, Simon Helberg, who left me in the dust when he stopped biting his nails during Big Bang Theory and I persisted. Simon Helberg, in case you do not know, played Howard Wallowitz on the Big Bang Theory.

so I worked with him for nine years. He also has starred opposite Merrill Streep and Hugh Grant in Stephen Freer's Florence Foster Jenkins, which was unbelievable. He got a Golden Globe Award nomination for that role. He himself made his feature film debut in 2015 with Will Never Have Paris, which is really, really incredible. And he wrote that script, stars in it,

and co-directed it with his wife, Jocelyn Town, who I also have had the pleasure of getting to know. know in the time that I've known Simon. And more recently, he starred opposite Marion Cotillard, is how it looks, but it's a French name. And Adam Driver in Annette, which opened at the 2021 Cannes Film Festival. Simon is someone I've admired for so many years who, I mean, he made me laugh more than anyone, for sure on the Big Bang Theory set. And I've, I so enjoyed working alongside. him essentially wrote my movie as they made us with him in mind for the character of Nathan, never thought he would read the script. And then when I gave it to him, he forgot and didn't read it.

So then I really thought he'll never read it. But he did and ended up agreeing to play this character opposite Dustin Hoffman and Candice Bergen and Diana Agron. And I don't know if we've had a guest speak so candidly about so many aspects of their mental health, their career, and like really deeply who they are than Simon Helberg. This is a really beautiful conversation that Jonathan and I really were so grateful to witness. Jonathan, what are you most excited to share with people about this episode?

I'm just excited we have a friend in person, even if I'm not there. We really don't let you talk a lot, but I think you enjoyed yourself nonetheless. Let's welcome Simon Helberg to the breakdown. Break it down. Do you need to cough something up? No, I'm just, you know, taking it.

This is my family surrounding you. Oh, good. Okay. Just all the mental illness right there. Yeah, it's a wall of problems and Eastern European Jews, which are kind of synonymous. Lots of issues. Get your tissues for the wall of issues. Well, Simon and I know each other from the Big Bang Theory, where we worked together for, I think I was on for nine years. And we never spoke, actually, which is so funny. I don't know why you wouldn't talk to me. We worked together for nine years.

Sorry, and this is what it was like to work with Simon, who's a real. real hoot. Real obnoxious. No. Simon also is in the movie that I just made that he's one of the stars of. The movies as they made us. And Simon plays the brother in this family. Diana Agron is our lead. Dustin Hoffman plays your father, as it were, and your character's father. And Candice Bergen, not Jewish, but knows a lot more Yiddish than any of us knew, plays the mother. Yeah. Yeah. That's good to know, too. I didn't realize they were. all in that. Yeah, love those people.

No, what about these reviews, Ma'am? We haven't really gotten to speak. I'm very embarrassed. It's like La La La Land reviews. It's the only thing missing is music. Yeah. Well, you got some dancing in there. We made this film, and honestly, I mean, as Simon

is a very, very, he's going to make a joke about it. He's a very modest person. The most modest person in the world. I wrote this character with Simon in mind. And when people are like, oh my God, were you intimidated to direct Dustin Hoffman? I said yes, but I was more intimidated to direct my friend Simon Helberg because pretty much every episode of Big Bang, I followed him around like a puppy dog like, I'm your biggest fan. At any time,

call security, but I'm your biggest fan. I think you're amazing. You know how scared I was to work with you to have security. What were you intimidated about with me about? What would I? I mean, the basis of kind of my writing this film was that my fantasy, and I said this to Jim Parsons, even before I told you, my complete dream fantasy would be that Simon play this character. And I was so nervous to give it to you. I think I sat on it for like a year before I showed anyone. That's why it was so warm when you gave it to me. I'm sorry. It came with you.

You did give it to me early on. And I literally thought from the time that I gave it to you to the time we next to the time we next spoke about it, I thought you were planning on ways to say no. Like, what is it the movie? The 100 Days of Summer? It was like the 100 ways to say no. Skywriting? No, that's just

too cruel. And also, you know, like, there were so many delays and it was like, I mean, I started writing when we were still on Big Bang, you know? Yeah. And then I said, did you read my script? And you're like, no, I forgot. Let me get to it. Oh.

Then you read it. Boy, I'm really not as nice as you made me sound. I thought this was going to be much more flattering. No, that's code for I, please don't ever ask me. Well, that's what I thought. Oh, no, I really, no, if it makes you feel better, really forgot about it. See, I'm a great person. When I say things, I mean them.

No, I didn't think about all that work you put in. Not even one time did it cross my mind. No, I, you know what? Also, I think it was so personal for you. I knew it was because you told me, and I went through some of those experiences. with you, or at least peripherally. And so I didn't know if it was a cathartic therapeutic exercise for you in some way. Which I would often share other cathartic therapeutic things going on.

It's true. I mean, no, we were at that point that we talked about emotions. We talked about things in our camaraderie. You recommended my therapist to me who has changed my life. I like to think I saved your life. I would say you did. I mean, I don't think I could have survived in the fetal position too much longer. We'll get to that in a minute.

But yeah, yeah, so I think, you know, sometimes people just, they vomit onto a page because they have to and it's good for them and it's personal. And almost, in some ways, I almost didn't, I didn't know if you really wanted other people to, if you were going to make the movie. You're like, this is so obscenely personal. No one should see it. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe what, maybe part of it was that I thought that. Maybe part of it was just that I was lazy and self-involved. But eventually when I realized you actually were going to turn this into a movie,

and it wasn't just an exercise. And I read it. And, I mean, I thought it was just bold and brave and beautiful and messy in the way that I love those things to be. But I was very flattered that you thought of me. I did not hear any mention of Dustin or anyone else. So I would... You were my ride or die. Yeah.

That is true what you say. I guess I was first somehow. And I remember talking to you about it. at a wedding, right? Didn't we talk about it? Oh, yes. That's right. They did.

Not our wedding. No. And, you know, but you never know of these things are going to come about. And also, like, COVID happened. I mean, there were so many things. My and B. Alex breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful.

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And after you sign up, they'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention Miami Biobiotics Breakdown to help support the show. But yes, our little film, our little $3 million film, has received very positive, critical and fan acclaim, which is extremely exciting. And, you know, in particular, the performances and yours in particular is very, very, I mean, it's very special and raw and all the words. While I didn't sell this movie as a memoir or an autobiography, you know a lot about my family. And in particular, I wanted to show a character whose way to cope with a difficult family is to get out. And obviously your character, you know, spoiler alert, your character does come back in what I think is one of the most beautiful shots is your face when you walk into that room. I'm just curious if you have any sort of reflections on, you know, I think most people feel that you did a really beautiful, sympathetic portrayal of a character that's very easy not to like because of decisions he made. And I know for any of us with complicated families, you know, there's a push and pull.

And I'm just wondering sort of what it was like to, you know, to bring that to a character. And if you kind of consciously thought like, gosh, this guy could so easily be portrayed like this. But like, I'm curious what that. I mean, I know what your process was sort of in the moment. But I'm curious just sort of if you can reflect a little bit on what it was like to play that kind of character. Many families have that guy in the, you know, in the family or that gal who leaves. Yeah. Um, well, obviously there are a lot of personal connections I have with the story, with the character, which I think you always do. And if you don't, you have to find them to play any role. So some, some lend themselves more easily to your own experience. And this one did in many ways. Um, and, uh, and by the same token, too, I, I'd say I'm always fighting for my character. I'm, I don't know what else you do. You don't, you don't, you don't want.

to judge or villainize the people you play because that's generally not how we walk through life and we have a point of view and we believe it. That's why we behave the way we do. So, you know, I guess, yeah, so I don't know. So I feel like in getting prepared for it, it was scary for me. It was a lot. I felt ready to leave it all out there. And I know in some ways that is always true, but this one particularly was tough. It was challenging. There are a lot of parallels in my life, and we talked about that, and we all talked about that before, which I think was really, it was helpful and it was scary. I was in many ways more, the particular fear I had of this one was unique. And then you add in working with, you know, Dustin.

Who you have wanted to work with. Yeah. I mean, honestly, like, probably my, yeah, my hero. I mean, that's what I said to him at the end. And it'll make me cry if I say it again. But, you know, I really do. And, you know, I, he is somebody who has changed the entire art form, really, and who I've looked up to. And most people do.

And that element combined with the, and also trying to do justice to your story, you know, that's like a, you always want to serve the story. But when the person who wrote it and lived it is there and is a friend of yours, there's an added, element as well. But I will say, yes, the preparation for me, the one thing in this that I felt like was sensitive was I actually didn't really want to play your brother. I don't know your brother. I didn't want to hear that much about your brother with the exception of like maybe a couple questions here and there. But I felt like you wrote the character. I understood the character. I don't really need to know that much more. You also, you change things where you needed to, as did Diana. And that was really important for me because it helped me get out of

of the story too. Yeah. Yeah. And I like that sort of chasm of like between what I interpreted to be and maybe what the realities. I like the friction of like you've got an idea and I've got an idea of him and then we'll meet somewhere in there. I don't want to hammer it all out so it's perfectly smooth.

But I do want to just say like working with Dustin was that scene that we got to, you know, have together, I mean, a few, but the one, you know, when he's in bed there is really, that experience was, I mean, I definitely went into some kind of fugue state and it was so, it really was like all the things that I had hoped to experience and be surprised by, in terms of like getting that opportunity to work with Dustin, all of it really happened there, which was, because I, you know, we had a few scenes, but it wasn't like, I didn't have a whole movie where we were working together, but it was like. No, that scene, we also had an open role and Dustin kept looping the scene back. He just looped it over and over. And he was, and he was. would throw in some ad-libs and we just like I just like let you guys do it. Yeah. It just went around and around. And he, you know, he has, and I've read about him and I've obsessed with him. So I know some of the stories and the way he's worked and I know some of the things that, you know, he did probably in different, different eras under maybe different

substances and different techniques and who knows what was going on. And, and you know, he's, he's going to, he's going to kind of turn shit on its head. And he's, and there's, which is dangerous going into it. and maybe it has been dangerous in different ways, but emotionally. Yeah, exactly. And that, the danger of the unknown is like is the greatest gift, really, I think, for an actor. But, like, so you're coming into that scene and, yeah, I do just remember, like, one moment where he, he, he, we did the scene. And then he just, we had talked right before the scene about how I had gone home to L.A. from Jersey to see my kids and kind of, and he was, like, already, like, laying there. and it was my coverage

and kind of touched on like that for a second and even something he brought up something you know about how fast time goes by and it's like now that I think back on me he was like he was like you know kind of greasing the runway

like he was like getting it ready and he also didn't know you from Big Bang Theory so he was interacting with you as an actor right not as a persona yeah so we're sort of half talking like you know he's laying there And, you know, he's like, it's all, it's all chapters.

The life's all the whole, just, you know, these chapters, you live different lives. And he's kind of going through the whole, I mean, he's saying how you're, the time goes by. And then you're not who you are in the next chapter and all these things. I was like, whoa, you know, and then all of a sudden we're rolling. And we shoot the scene. And then he, like, he looked at me at the end because it was an open role. So, and he just goes, so, so you got kids? and we had like mentioned my kids

but all of a sudden I was like is he talking to me or is he talking to me as the character and everything fused in this and absolutely I've never had an experience quite like this it just gutted me it was because it was so personal

it was he just he took me with him and I had no idea like I had no idea what was going to happen And I still don't know if he was talking to me or the character because it worked perfectly. And then we actually had this whole exchange that was both, I mean, it was the fusion of reality and fiction.

It was insane. And he would do that in other ways. That is like for me both watching it, you know, on a screen this big from the next room. What that is is, I mean, not to be schmaltzy, but what he's doing is he's finding the truth. Exactly. He found the truth in that scene and that moment.

And when Jonathan and I spoke to him and he talked about the like compulsory therapy that you had to go through to be an actor in his school, right? Like that's what it is. He found truth. And I'm thinking like, is that why he's a master, right? Is that what he does? Is that how he does it in all these roles?

Like, and then can you do that in every scene? or do you just do it at pivotal moments and then you link them together? But that's what that was. There was a point where, and, you know, what everyone sees in the film is an edited version to the best of my ability to convey, you know, in my mammoth fashion, the most important elements of that scene. But the things that we have on film is like the most fascinating parts of that scene. Because I actually did not expect or even want your character to be as emotional.

like I wasn't, I was surprised and there's a take where like you couldn't stop crying. I know. Also, when we screened the movie, you had a very strong emotional reaction. I did. I mean, which is weird.

It's weird. I know. There's nothing worse than crying at your own performance. No, it wasn't me that I, man, I actually had this happen at my wedding with Jocelyn. I was giving, I was saying my vows and I started crying in my own vows. and I said, I pause and I said, I move me.

I remember this and everyone laughed. And that is the height of both my just narcissism and my charming, self-deprecating humor. I actually came home that night from shooting that and I was like, fuck, I really didn't want to actually be that undone. Like, I shouldn't have been, but I also knew, you know, I know how editing works. And I also know, like, there are many scenes that I've done in my life

and you see happen all the time on film or on stage where people are just like, they are feeling themselves, they are crying, that was the one, oh my God, the tears. Look at me, look at these tears. You know, in real life, people aren't, they usually wipe their fucking tears away or hide them or try to control it.

That's how real life is. But in film, for some reason, everyone's like, just bathing in those tears. But this was very surprising to me that that happened. Dustin also cried. He did. That is a real tear. It is a real tear.

And I remember seeing that too, again, man, those pros that's like, the end of that take, it was like even the just one eye I think it was like as soon as he finished one eye I remember seeing that with Meryl too I was like what the fuck is this where did they learn this thing

take one okay shit that wow which eye do you want that tear to come down so it was like it was it was that was incredible to see but I yes I felt genuinely wrecked I was just proud of what you did and I was relieved

that the movie told a story that made sense that you could take this journey with these different characters. I felt all those feelings. I feel the feelings of Dustin. You know, when I... It's happening for me when I'm seeing a movie

after I've shot it. I don't know if this is true for you, but you're like living a different experience in that theater because you had a ride making that movie. And it's part of that emotional reaction, I think, is just from the experience of doing it. Yes.

I've seen your other words. work, you know, outside of Big Bang theory. And, you know, Florence Foster Jenkins was a really, really unbelievable piece of work. And I just, people think of you as a comedy actor. And what I, what I've been saying is that, you know, to me, your comedy is very serious and your drama is very light. And I, you know, for me, I, I always learned from you, even in our comedy work. I learned from you in how, you know, kind of serious you were about even the funniest things. And that's something that I learned so much from you from you from. And in this film, where you are a very, you know, serious and contained character, to me,

there's also a lot of humor. And that's, you know, what I really love about watching you and then getting to work with you. Well, thank you. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, no, I agree. Everything you said about me, I am a marvel. No, that's an interesting point about the lightness of the drama and the heaviness of the comedy or the seriousness of the comedy. And I mean, you hear people, actors talk about that kind of thing all the time.

And I actually remember getting things very wrong early on in studying and doing a Shakespeare monologue from Symboline and having a teacher say, that was hands down, the funniest, version of that monologue I have ever seen. You were not trying to be funny. I said, thank you. No, I was. I said, thank you. You said, one thing, it's not a comedy. But that's, I remember learning that early on, even in those moments of like getting that

Shakespeare monologue wrong. I mean, the investment, I think is, in the investment in really the honesty of a scene and of a character. And your movie, I think it's more interesting. too to try to find the moments in which there might be some levity like in your movie in that's in that really heavy scene with with dust and it's because that's that's what life is you're trying to break up the the trauma and the drama in those moments they tend to actually and you tend to I think also have these I don't know how it is for you in and these kind of like there's an awareness

sometimes where you're in that death bed scene in life like you're like this is is that scene. And sometimes there's something really mundane about it or just clumsy. I don't know if you feel that, but, and maybe it's because I'm an actor too and I'm kind of taking notes, which is probably not a wonderful way to live. Although I think we probably all have that, that bird's eye or like, you know, who is the eye and I think this, I feel this. It's like you're, You're kind of living a, you know, parallel existence in those moments. So, yeah, so anyhow, but that's also the writing, and I'm sure based on your actual experiences. Yeah, it's just, it's like a clumsiness to all that.

Well, it's funny because one of the things, like Jonathan often will break tension with humor at my first indication that I'm not in the mood for that. That makes him joke more. And what actually, when you were talking about that, it actually made me think of something that happened with me and Jonathan. I got angrier to him than I think I ever have and the whole time we've known each other. And in the moment it was not funny at all. But later, the way that Jonathan and I sort of reconciled, he said, well, you're a cartoon character

and sometimes you have to blow your top. And it was so funny to think about that because of the way that my humor is and my intensity and my performance value, it's true. Even in there's still an observation. you know, for me, of self, in terms of what to I... It's called narcissism.

No, of course. Yeah. No, but like, you know, dating an actor is a funny thing to do, and I once did that. And sometimes it seemed like he was acting when he was being serious, you know? Yeah. And it's true. It's when you have a lot of experience with emotion, because it's your job to process them and think about them and how to present them, sometimes real life can feel weird.

Yeah. Yeah. That's... Yeah. It's, I mean, I feel like there is a stereotype of like, you know, I can't tell if you're acting or you'd have to ask my wife. But I feel like, and she's an actor too. Exactly. But so maybe actually don't ask her. And never mind. You're right. We're always just faking it. No, yeah, what a, what a nightmare we must be. Yes, exactly. Well, speaking of nightmares, your dad is an actor. Your dad was an actor. And was he actively working when you were a kid? Were you aware that your dad was an actor? Yes. I was. Yes, he would be really unsuccessful if I was not aware. No, he was successful when I was growing up.

And he was one of the original members of the Groundlings. So I kind of grew up at that theater, even I think, you know, being pulled up on that stage as a baby in that whole world. That was where I was. And watching him do guest star roles on TV and pilots and commercials. And he was in a bunch of Mel Brooks films and things like that. So that was my measure of success. I saw him, you know, working and looked up to him. And really just he was probably the funniest person that I knew.

And every time I'd seen him at the growlings, it was, he would, you know, steal every show. So I really, really looked up to him and also was very aware of the struggles, too, which were always right on the heels of the successes, and particular as I, as I, as I got older and my mother was a casting director as I was growing up and then she that kind of phased out and then my parents wrote some television and so they they really they they struggled as much as they succeeded and sometimes more and particularly as I got older more I'd say there was less work and so going into acting was I mean it was like a cautionary tale I didn't I did not think oh I well I can just do this thing that my parents did

because, in fact, they warned me about it and, you know, tried to kind of dissuade me in a relatively healthy way. You know, when I wanted to go study it in college, that was not something they were excited about. Or when I even actually quitting the jazz band, I don't know how being a jazz pianist would be any kind of lucrative, you know, healthy backup. It's my safety. So they were not thrilled about that. And I think probably rightfully so. You know, it was a challenging industry and still is. But eventually, you know, they were encouraging and I studied at NYU and they supported that.

And yeah, and obviously I've had a very different career. But I think my takeaway was, and maybe always and sort of probably this is a segue, I'm sure, into mental health and how terrible mine is or has been. But I think I always had this feeling like if I, like there was a way where I could study and learn enough and work hard enough that I would ensure my success. I would ward off any kind of potential failure that if I rehearsed enough, that if I learned enough, that if I, you know, and of course that did ultimately kind of seamlessly lead into OCD and rituals. and deals and things like this, but that I could kind of be above any risk, that I could be somewhat superhuman in all of this. I mean, where do you think that came from?

Because, you know, obviously if one has a tendency to, you know, to believe in that kind of system, which, you know, often does happen with obsessions and compulsions, like these are the things I need to do to make it right, right? And if I do those things, it'll be right. And if I don't do those things, it'll be wrong, right? So I could see that then that could follow. you into any career, right?

Right. But I, especially with acting, you know, I mean, was that kind of part of, let's say, your training or do you feel like that? No, because a lot of times when I meet people who are, I'm not formally trained. So when I meet people who like go to class and have that experience, they're taught like, your next break is right around the corner and like never give up and just be positive and do all the things. And I'm like, yeah, but ultimately it has nothing to do with anything.

That's just my devastating perspective on the world. Right. No, no, no. I mean, I think that. All of the avenues that I went down probably exacerbated what was already a natural tendency or something that I had developed early on, probably genetically, probably circumstantially. I mean, but no, but from the time I was five, I remember having those kinds of obsessions and those compulsions. But what happened is I think the lines got blurred because everything I did, I'm not saying this to in any way.

I'll say this as humbly as I can because you said it was very modest. So here's, I'm going to dispel that myth. Everything that I did from an early age, I excelled at, like, kind of dramatically. So, like, I started taking karate when I was five and a half. There were no kids in the studio. It was a bunch of guys from New Jersey who were like, what is, who's this guy? They had to get me like a triple zero uniform. I had to roll up the pants, and, you know, I would trip in class, and they'd laugh.

And then I'd start breaking boards. And then I would all of a sudden, then they opened up a kid's kind of, you know, class every Sunday. And then all these Russian kids came in, but, man, they were big. And they hit. There was no contact. But by the time I was nine and a half, I was a black belt. I was the first kid in that studio. I was the youngest black belt.

I didn't take any kind of poles, but I'm sure in at least a thousand mile radius. And then I quit. When I was about 10 or 11, I wanted to play music. And then I got really, really good at music. And then I started playing professionally, semi-professionally, like in my teenage years. and was really, really good at music and got into jazz and excelled at that.

And then I quit kind of that thing. And I mean, I still do that, but, and I went into acting. And then I got a lot of success there. And I'm not saying that to say like, hey, I'm really good at these things. But I also didn't allow in my mind anything other than being the best. And actually to a point that it crippled me. I mean, and I was not a pleasant person probably for a while. And the way in which I guaranteed that success was to practice until, you know, I couldn't feel my fingers or to pace around that apartment.

Even when I was doing the Big Bang Pub, I paced so much. I couldn't walk. I had to sit. I couldn't walk. My feet, like, seized up. This is not healthy in case you were wondering. And I had such gorgeous feet before this, too. It's just such a shame.

You know, God gives you two feet. And that's the name of my memoir for sure. So I think that that was the way I needed to be at the top of my game and the top of my field. Or it was unacceptable. Right. And what I'm thinking about, you know, is it's not necessarily being at the top of your game. It's at the top of the assumption that the things that you're doing is why you're at the top of your game. So that's what that's, and I'm not kidding.

I'm still trying to untangle that disgusting mess because it is a mess because it's like you don't know how to. separate, you're like, okay, where is this bleeding into my anxieties determining my functioning? Where am I? How much do I need to run these scenes or rehearse these songs? And by the way, the other crazy part about being an actor is you don't want to set any of this stuff. You know, I don't want, you want to be prepared. And this is the other kind of, maybe it's why I think in some ways I'm fascinating with being an actor because it really is, aside from all of the like human observation part of it, but there's also an element for someone who's somewhat obsessive that you get to do things over and over again, which is kind of amazing and also can be insane

too. Can we have one more? One more time. But also because there's this element of preparation that has to go into, I mean, at least from where I said, and you can kind of never be done preparing. But then in the moment, when you are there, it is 100% unknown. It is dangerous, it is unpredictable, it should be, and you throw out everything you've done, and you trust. That is like the most beautiful relief in some way, and that's where the artfulness of it comes. But it's really complicated for somebody who's trying to control everything and making these kind of deals, you know, and having these rituals and having these ways in which you ensure against failure. It's like the whole point of being an actor and stepping out there,

the whole, what makes it beautiful is that precipice, the failure that's all. always under you, kind of waiting to suck you in, you know. Well, and I think also the kind of bind, and this is true, you know, even if you're not a performer, the bind that you get into is what happens if life gets in the way, right? Like, I remember when I had kids, right? I mean, even the way I brushed my teeth, like, could not continue the way it had, right? Yeah. The way that I ate, the way that I studied.

Like so... Everything becomes a drive-by. It's like, you only have time to like, you want to play the piano, you can run by. That's right. And whatever you can, whatever notes you hit on the where you want, yeah, it's amazing. So I'm thinking about that, that, you know, and I have friends who are actors who will literally, you know, cancel plans to, like, grab a cup of coffee because they have an audition the next day. Yep. That's a good point.

And this is like, and here's the thing. Like, if I question that, people like, well, you don't need, success came so easy to you. You don't know. You're a kid and you're famous and everything was handed to you. But it's not even that. It's just like, in my head, I cannot do that kind of immersive prep. Right. And it's a good point.

It's not that I don't have a process. And that was one of the neat things about how much time I also got to work with Jim. You know, Jim is very methodical. He's very scientific. He's very academic about his performance. I am completely not. And yet I felt I completely understood. what he was doing and what he needed for me, right, as a partner.

And it occurred to me that I would never take away his process, right? But he also would never take away mine. And I remember, you know, there was a time when I think he used to like rewrite his lines or like people have methods of things they do. Right. I've seen 60-year-old actors who sit and write their lines all day in between scenes. Like that's what they do and they prep. And I wonder like, what happens if you stop, right? Do you need to do that?

Right. Like, what if it's still okay if you don't do that? But part of the things that we do is just to bind anxiety while we're waiting. Exactly. When does it become superstition and when is it, when is it? Well, and the fact is if you need it, then it's needed, right? Because if I take away, this is true, I mean, as a person with OCD, if you take away my ability to touch that desk a third time, I don't feel good. Yeah.

I won't behave well. Right. Like, it will eat at me. Do I wish it wasn't so? Yes, but just let me touch it for the third time and then we can go on as we were. Yeah. No, I know. And I think, but as you know, that third time is you are emboldening that need.

It's that loop gets reinforced. Yeah, exactly. So I think I also used to feel like as an actor, I mean, my compulsions have changed and matured over the years, like a fine, rotting wine. No, I mean, I used to have all very much that kind of the physical, you know, the numbers of touching and this and that and millions of things. And actually, sometimes the relief of acting was that when I was on stage, it's just I didn't have anything. I didn't have it.

I couldn't do it. So that was lovely. But then, you know, things change and they find other ways to kind of knock on your door. It's like pee. It'll come out eventually. You can hold it as long as you want. Yeah. Ew, I never thought of that.

Where will it come out, though? See, it depends. Okay. So in the depends. But yeah, I think it's just a, oh, it's, it is. kind of a beast, but I do think there's something to, you know, it's like how, if I'm going to go do a film and do I need to lock myself in a hotel room, you know, for the whole day to get ready? And then I look at other people who are like, what are my lines in the trailer?

Yeah. And I used to think, that's so, how fucking lazy of that person. But then I've worked with some amazing people who, I've never worked with anybody who thinks that, like, you know, they can't be spontaneous if they've memorized their lines. I do think that's bullshit. I'm sorry, I'm going to just say that. Like, oh, well, you don't ever know what you're going to say in real life, so I haven't looked at the script. Okay.

Well, but I have worked with great people who like to have the lines at a little bit of an arm's reach. Just a little, some great people. And that is interesting to me. I can't say that I'm that way, and I don't think I'll ever be that way, but I like the idea of surrendering, you know, to that, to riding that wave. I mean, look at Dust. I mean, Dustin, there's another wonderful segue into working with. Well, and Dustin was talking, you know, in the podcast episode, he talked about Rain Man

and how he kept trying to quit. So I've heard about that. You got to listen. It's a great episode. And you're the host of this one? Yes. Okay, I am going to check that out. What's a call?

It's the only podcast he's ever done. What I learned as a director, Yeah. I prepared more for that than I think I even prepared for, like, my natural labor in the next room. And... We are so close to where you gave birth. I am very close to where I gave birth. No, but I did lock myself, you know, in a hotel room to write.

And that was, like, the best thing ever. That's the only way that I like writing. But that is the actual equivalent to a performance. As an actor, not at all. Correct. That's right. I was, I was, like, that, writing that was an extended performance broken up over, you know, a series of weekends in a hotel. But as a director, I mean, the amount of prep, I literally, it's insane, right?

And there was nothing that felt obsessive or compulsive about it. It literally had to happen. And how did you deal with being, see, the thing about being a director that I think is so absolutely mind-boggling to me, which I've done once, but is, is, is that for somebody who wants to be in control or who basically figures out some secret algorithm to life where they think they're controlling everything. As a director, you're actually,

you have to say action and then you have to sit there and be like, oh, God! And how do I, and how do you, and actually, again, the magic there is, is I would think, letting go, right? It's a lot. And this is your story too.

Yeah. So how did you deal with that? It's a lot of, I mean, you know, life is when to hold on and when to let go. I think Rumi said that. I did not say that. Or when to hold them, when to fold them.

Also that. No, it was a very, very bizarre experience. And, you know, although I wasn't working in actual film and it was digital, there still is only a certain amount of time. Right. When you have a $3 million movie. Like, that's very, very little time of actually filming. Yeah.

Yeah. But I wanted to get back to something. And Jonathan, I also didn't know if you had... Oh, Jonathan. When did you get here? He's just... Just hanging out. I'm just fascinated.

I'm the studio audience. He's like, my audio isn't working. Have you guys started? But I wanted to ask one more question about sort of your, you know, kind of how you arrived at acting. So from the time that you decided to be an actor, where did Big Bang fit into just sort of your chronology?

Like just, like, how old were you when you, you know, like obviously you went to college, I'm assuming at normal college age, like you do. Normal college, dropped out at the normal dropout age after two years, came back here like it's funny you're talking about like that that sort of clearing that that

mental space or having that that bandwidth like as a parent where you have zero or but when I was 19 I was out here I mean it was like you know my life was how to succeed and I was living at home I was working at different restaurants

I started doing sketch comedy at Second City I had a you know hefty bag of props and costumes that I would drag to Hollywood from my parents' house and buy, you know, rent out a theater and, uh, and hand out flyers to lots of, you know, disinterested, um, girls and other people who did not think sketch comedy was cool. Because it actually, it is now. It was not bad. But it was not cool. No. And there was really, there was no UCB and there was no, you know, there was no social media. So it was a lot of, um, pounding the pavement. I mean, it really was. And we, we did very well as a, as a, as a group.

and got some attention. And I was, you know, auditioning and changing in my car between, you know, working at a restaurant or trying to stay on that side of town before I went home to my parents' house. And actually, this was before I officially dropped out of college because I had this summer. It was like the summer of love. Like I was just, except without, like, romance. But the love was like, oh, my God, I can be an actor. I had finished my sophomore year. I did a one act that was in a theater.

It was like an 18-person capacity theater, and we rented that out. It was just paying to act, basically. I had a friend who had a manager. That would be the title if you remember. Yeah. Yeah. And I ended up with a manager who had two projects in mind, basically.

She kind of sent me out as a test. One was for Undeclared, which is Judd Apatow's show at the time, and one was for this sketch comedy show that Steve Martin was producing. This was again in the summer. I went in to audition for Undeclared and Allison Jones, the casting director. I remember her like looking up after I was finished and sort of was like, who's your agent? And I said, I don't have an agent. She made a call to this woman, Leanne Cornell, who really helped jumpstart my career, along with this manager, Michelle Benedetti, who really, I am giving props to them because, boy, I don't know what they just took a chance on me.

And Leanne worked at Endeavor at the time. And I remember actually this Allison called Leanne and said, you got to meet this guy Simon. I went in. I remember them saying, like, we're a new agency, but we represent people like Dustin Hoffman. I remember this. And I was like, and they were like,

they threw a bunch of scripts at me. They're like, we're going to send you out because, you know, Allison said some really nice things and she's got great taste. And she wants you to meet Judd and da-da-da-da-da. And I went home to my parents. I said, I just got signed by Dustin Hoffman's agents. And I went in to meet Judd-Avattow. Seth Rogen was doing a favor for Judd.

This was like your first out of the gate. Well, yeah, none of these people were, I knew freaks and geeks. Like, I liked freaks and geeks, but it was not a, that was not something that you could, you know, put all of your chips on because there was a show that was on for one season. Right. These guys, like, I loved it, but I was like, you know, when you go home to your parents and you're like, have you seen freaks and geeks? And they're like, what? And then I went in for this Steve Martin show and kind of had, they also had a moment of pause. And then all of a sudden these shows were like, you can't go back to college.

I remember Steve Martin, the people, the producers were like, why are you going back to New York? And I said, well, my parents, they want me to. And they said, let's call your parents now. And they, I remember getting on to a speaker phone. And we called and I, no one answered. Like my dad didn't answer. My mom, I can't remember which parent I called. But they were going to say, like, let your son stay home.

And then Judd was all excited about me and my agent. And I was like, I'm dropping out of school. And the next thing I remember was I was in a therapist office for my parents who were like, he's crazy. He cannot do this. Like we've got the tuition's already gone in. And I said, I'll get your tuition back and I'll pay you interest on it because I'm going to be so successful. And they went, you're not going to get the payment back. And I went to a pay phone.

And I called NYU. And I said, I need to get a refund. And I came home. And I said, I got you most of it. You know, but they're keeping 5%. I mean, I was like doing, I was like, but I'm going to pay you back because I'm going to get this. I mean, and I got none of it.

And we, my parents moved. They were moving out of their house at the time. That's how much you upset them. Well, I've conflated it in my mind because my memory is being in a hotel room with my parents and my brother, like a tiny, tiny room. And hearing officially that I did not get the undeclared. And I just, and I remember having to go work at the restaurant, and I borrowed, for some reason, I borrowed my mom's cell phone.

I mean, all these things, you know, I used to pull over the side of the road with a pay phone, check my machine, call my manager. Did they like me? Am I two charactery? What does that mean exactly? I feel like it's something about my nose. So, yeah, it was like, it was just a lot of that, a lot of like, oh, I almost got it. And then, and then I dropped out of school before I got this rejection.

and then it was like, I auditioned honestly, probably about, and I mean, this is a lucky thing, but probably like 10, at least 10 times a week. That's a lot. For months. Which I think is a testament to like how hard everyone was working. Also, there were only like three networks. Exactly.

It was like, yeah, BBC one, BBC. No, it really was. There was four networks at that time. And you could get, yeah, exactly. And you could get a commercial, which I did, you know, or a pilot, which I did. and it was life-changing, and it changed, that was changed my life. But it was slow,

and I, Judd Apatow did call me at home at my parents' house and say, I wrote you a role in the pilot to play the friend of the character you audition for, which was a big moment for me. And it was like these little victories. And eventually I,

I kind of took that plunge, and I quit my job and I moved out of my parents' house, and I did not have enough money to really do that. But I felt like, again, I was just making deals in my mind, and I was like, I'm a sink or swim person. You know, I would go to these auditions and I would be, I was a lunatic. I really was. I would seclude myself. I would never sit in a waiting room. And if I was, I would be in some other part. I was probably the most irritating person ever. Honestly, when I think back of this guy,

like, I'd be pace. I'd be like, can I go into the hallway? I'd be like, can I, like, whoever was there, like casting? Can I, can I, can, I'll be in the hallway if that's, okay. And they'd be like, sure. And I would never sit with other actors. I would never talk to anybody and I would just pace and probably touch the wall an odd amount of times or something divisible by three or whatever and then I'd go in and then but I would kind of

get the parts like I started getting the parts and I was like oh I'm touching that wall just right this morning but let's keep in mind your data set is extremely small here because well first of all this is not an experiment you can do you can't go to the same I mean in a parallel universe you could

go to the same audition right and one way you go and you and you schmooze and you make nice with all the other actors and the other way you do what you did. So your data set was literally selective experiences that you only tested could go one way.

What if I had parked in the other parking space? I would have died or if I hadn't gone up the stairs five times or I hadn't stepped over the lines in the parking garage this way or that. That's the whole thing. And I feel like, you know, anyway, jumping ahead, like all of that. I was doing well. Like I would

say I was a successful act. I mean, it's living. I was living a life. I just, I wasn't famous, but I did a lot of pilots. A lot of them failed. They all failed. None of them went on the air. I wrote a show called Derek and Simon that Bob

Odenkirk worked on, he wrote it with us, he directed it. It was an HBO pilot, you know, went in with Bernie Brillstein, pitched HBO. It was like, it was our story. It was kind of like girls, but it was boys. It was before girls. And

it was, and it was great and they bought it and we made I mean and we made it it was amazing they didn't pick it up you know like and there you go it went to sundance everyone was like oh my god and then we made it for you know this new crazy idea where you could do little shorts on the internet it was like a thing it was and uh i don't know if that ever caught on but um yeah so like anyway it was just like a lot of you know very lucky breaks or i would say like a lot of breaks that that that were not in any way yielding fame. No, but you were living, right, you were supporting yourself as an actor as a work.

Yes. How many years did you do that until, let's say, the audition for Big Bang? So that was 19 when I really started, and I was 26 when I got Big Bang. Wow. That's a lot of years. Yeah, it was a lot of years. Yeah. And it was like, but I was, you know, I was busy all the time.

I was always working, but I was doing Studio 60, which was Aaron Sorkin's show, at the same time that I auditioned for Big Bang. So again, a perfect kind of metaphor for all of the things that kept happening to me, which was I was like on this monster thing, but I was kind of in the background. And then either the thing failed or I just, you know, worked but wasn't really, you know, didn't have any kind of standout moments. So I, Big Bang came along and I was like the first time I was like, I'm done, I'm done playing, I'm done doing failed pilots, I'm done playing nerds, I'm done, da, da, da, da, like, you know. And so that was obviously a bad instinct.

And I just couldn't believe that Big Bang. I mean, I knew it was going to get picked up when we shot that because I had done so many things that hadn't. I was like, oh, this is insane. Like the audience. I mean, from the taping, that was the moment that I was like, this is absolutely going to be on the air because that kind of response was absolutely wild. I mean, and you were on the show for the majority of it. And that feeling was there in the pilot, which actually kind of makes no sense because they didn't know who we were. Well, and that's the thing.

And I, you know, I came on the finale of season three. I had like two lines or something. And then I was Melissa Rausch and I both came on in season three kind of sporadically. And then we were both made regulars at the same time in four. But when we came on, like it was already an established show. It was already like a thing. So I wasn't part of this entire portion of our culture that I like to highlight. you know, there are moments in your life that are extremely definitive in that when that path is taken,

everything else will change. Yeah. And Big Bang was one of those. I think for all of us to some extent. What was your, how did you, what was your entry point into that? I mean, I remember meeting you, but how did it come to you? So the way that it came to me, I mean, I was out of the industry. It had been 12 years since Blossom ended.

So Blossom Ended when I was 19, and I'm a little bit older than you. But so my age 19 was like, I've been on television for five years. I've grown up in front of a camera. I never was really that interested in fame or money. And those seem to be things that everybody's talking about. And that's like how people are making decisions about my entire existence. You know, my grandparents were immigrants. And it was like, but you haven't gone to college.

It's like, but, you know, I want to. It's the most important thing. And my brother was four years older than me and like he had gone to college. and my brother was very kind of golden child. Like, you know, he didn't just, like, major in journalism. Like, he also, like, was the first one to have, like, a computer at UCLA that you could make newspapers on. And so he was, like, the editor of, like, the Jewish magazine.

And, like, he did the covers of all. Like, he was known. So, like, my brother had this, like, he had this experience at college that sounded amazing because he was being valued for all these things about his brain and his talents. And, like, here I was, like, I'm just a sitcom actress. And, like, everybody just wants me to sign, you know, an autograph. Yeah. And also, this is before social media.

So I can't even imagine what it's like now. But anyway, I had been out of the industry and ran out of health insurance. After I had my first kid in grad school, I got pregnant with my second. I took my doctoralhood pregnant. And we, you know, the health care system in this country gives you like a year, basically grace after you get your degree. And then we had no insurance. And I was like— They want you to die actively.

Pretty much. And I had, you know, I had two kids. I had little ones and did not come out of blossom with money to last me, forget about the rest of my life. Like, money was very different then. Money was different for lead female actresses who were 14 years old. Like, everything was different. So anyway, I just started auditioning for things because I was like, SAG insurance is really good. You know, our union has good insurance.

If I can just work enough to get it, like, I was teaching piano. I was teaching Hebrew. I was like doing everything to make ends meet. I was teaching with a baby strap to me. Like I taught neuroscience, I designed a curriculum for homeschool kid. Like, I was not planning on being on a sitcom. And, you know, I auditioned. I did an episode of Bones.

I don't think my character even had a name. I didn't even know how to tweeze my eyebrows back then. So when I look at it, all I see is like, oh, my gosh, how did they let me look like that on television? You know? And this audition came for the Big Bang Theory, which I thought was a game show. Because someone had told me in the first season, like, you know, two years before, they mentioned you on the Big Bang Theory and I thought it must have been like

like a quiz show or something. Yeah. So I didn't even know what it was. We did mention you. That's so funny. I had no idea. So my manager said they want like a female Jim Parsons and I was like, who's that? Yeah.

See the host. So I googled him and I like literally watched about 15 seconds of Jim Parsons and I was like, oh, I got it. Yeah, yeah. And so I went in for this audition. Like nobody knew who I was. Like it was a casting directors are all too young. Like no one.

And I was just like, I was a kid actor who frequently gets called Punky Brewster, even though we were a primetime show Blossom, not an afternoon kid's show. Yeah. So I just auditioned. Kate McCutche, I think, was there. Like, you know, a lot of cool character actresses. You were there and you were there. And then they probably all ended up on the show at some point.

And they like, they called two of us back in. Like they made us wait and like I had like a nursing baby waiting. Like it was, it was crazy. Did you get the role right there? No, they called the two of us back in. The other woman, I don't know what happened to her, but she and I, we walked, no, we walked out together. No, she had been. Through the moon door.

No, she told me as we were walking away that she was planning on moving and was quitting acting and that this last audition came through and she wasn't even going to go for it. No, I don't know. I don't know who she was and I hope that she, and she kind of said, she was. She's like, I kind of like, yeah, like I was not. Wow, that's, so you're, so that's like an actual example of the path. Yeah, like, like, she, she, she, for all I know she, well, for all I know, she got it and turned it down. Like, I have no idea. But here I was, I knew nothing about the show.

And I don't think I've ever talked about this so explicitly. I didn't know Sheldon had a spot. Okay. I didn't know that. I didn't know. They're going to cut you out. I didn't do like with the Disney take out all the. It's like I never existed.

Yeah. I didn't know that Raj, you know, Kunal's character, couldn't speak to women. I had no idea. So I would read scripts and I'd be like, what is happening? But what season was this? Three? I came in in three. But that's, I mean, how often?

Okay, but like everyone knew that Sheldon had a spot and I remember I once tried to do. If you watched the show. Okay, but everybody assumed that I had like watched every episode. And I was like, I have a nursing baby and a toddler who wants to nurse. Like, I'm not watching TV. So I felt very uncomfortable because one time I was, we were doing blocking in the living room scene and I said to Mark Sandrowski, our director, I was like, should I sit here? He's like, that's Sheldon's spot. Why would you say? I was like, right? Of course. Yeah. And I'd be like,

why does Raj's character? Why can't he speak? What's happened? Like, I didn't know. So when I came on, it was, you know, it's very methody of you. Because your character was, you just appeared anyhow out of the blue, right? I also came into our show at a time in history when two of our cast members who I didn't know we're publicly dating, we're no longer dating. So that had just happened. And there was also something that I knew very little about because the last time I was on a TV show was like 1932. Like y'all were, or some of the characters,

some of the cast were like in the middle of a negotiation for which I didn't know that like that reflects on like tension on the set. I had no idea it was happening. Yeah. And like also I'm just kind of I'm not really tuned into the industry. Like I didn't know that people dated. Yeah. I remember at one point.

You're like, we don't have to do our own Colgate commercials. Last time I was on TV, I had to say, and welcome at the Colgate Comedy Hour. I'm Miami-Mialic. Are your teeth yellow, grimy, cavities, gum disease, ginger vitus. No, yeah, lots has changed since blossom. I didn't know. Right, and Melissa Roush, who, you know, like, we came on at the same time,

and she was, like, next to me. And so she would be like, she'd fill me in on things that were important. Like, don't make jokes about this. They're not speaking today. That's right. She would have to tell me, like, if you say, anything to him, it's going to get back to him. Don't say anything to her that you don't want to produce it.

I don't think I, I think I guess I knew that all kind of implicitly. Also, it was nothing, it was, I don't want anybody to pick this up and be like strife on the big, it was nothing bad. No, no, it's like, it's the industry. It's totally just like things that I didn't know. And I had been out of the industry, except for like Kirby's enthusiasm, which is like barely, it's such its own universe. I did like three of those episodes and like had one line.

So it's not, it's very different. But anyway, that was, you know, I was also learning. all of your personalities, meaning like you were. You were very, you were quiet, you were very focused. Johnny Galecki, I had known since I was 13. I don't, I didn't even know if he remembered who I was for like the first two seasons because he still keeps to himself. You know, it's just you're, it's like coming into high school. Yeah. Like the last two weeks of the final semester. Yeah. So forget about, like, fun, doesn't it? Forget about that you don't have a locker. Like, I was having to learn like all the politics. Yeah. It's just like, it's just personalities. And they put it on TV for

millions of people to see. So yeah, it's great. And everyone asks, like, was it fun on the Big May? Yeah, it's like, it's like coming into a strange high school. You know those nightmares you have where you show up at a high school that you, it's the one you think you've gone to, but then no one knows you, and then it's broadcast to 20 million people? Also, we, we had an experience, you know, together, but separately. You know, we had an experience of also our show going from, like, being very, very popular, you know, with fans, which, like, like, like the writing is very special. I think that's what you were talking about

that you could sense. Like the writing is very special, the sensibility. Chuck Lorry and Bill Prady had a very specific way of crafting words and humor that really, really clicked. Critics famously liked to not like us

because it was kind of like, what if the captain of the football team is also a nice guy? You know, you can like him. But we kind of had this like, oh, well, they're this, you know, like fan favorite and whatever. But we experienced a time

where we went into syndication and our notoriety, like our noticeability shifted dramatically. Well, you're either being modest or you actually are overlooking something, which is a really a fundamental part of the shift was you coming onto the show. No, no, no, I'm serious. And Melissa. And you've also skipped somehow into like you've pinned it all on the syndication thing. Actually, what happened was you guys came out of the show and the show grew an extra heart like an octopus.

and it became layered and just had a deeper, more nuanced quality to it. I know that we get a little bit of a flack for being whatever, broad. I mean, we were a sitcom. It was a sitcom, though. I mean, I don't know what broad is anymore, but a broad came out of the show and two, actually. And no, and you guys took it to the next level, and it became incredibly, you know, 10 times as popular. And then, of course, going into syndication. But seriously, the show that people remember is the show with the seven of us.

And those first couple of seasons were great. You know, I think I'd have to look back. I don't remember. I really can't remember anything. But yeah, so anyhow, I think it's worth pointing that. No, I appreciate that. But I was also wanting to sort of highlight, you know, that especially for the five of you, you know, who had been, you know, really there from the beginning, there was.

Like, well, I guess, yeah, it's true. For all of us, it went from, like, people not randomly emailing me asking for a lot of money. Like, that was one of the things that started happening when we went into syndication. I would get emails like, you came and spoke for my synagogue 15 years ago. Can I have $50,000? We'd like to build a new mikvah. Yeah. Oh, I had a guy.

And, like, that started happening all the time. I had a guy at the coffee bean. And famously, the introduction that people tend to make to me, or particularly when the show was on, which they would come up and they would say, listen, I hate your show. But that's the way they would start talking to me. Like, I mean, every day, I fucking can't stand your show, but my, and then it would be fill in the blank, my uncle, my brother, my bus driver from high school, my rabbi, my dentist, my whatever. And I was sort of like, you are all these people, aren't you? this is not there is no other you don't have this is not about your your ophthalmologist you like the show no maybe you don't but they come on and i hate and i was like and i started getting very angry because

people would say i don't like your show but my grandmother does so a guy came out he goes i hate your show i can't i can't say it but i like my roommate loves it so i you know it's on in the background and anyway i read about your uh the negotiations you want to buy me a cup of coffee and i was like yeah well you know you had me at i hate your show would you like a bagel to go with that too? It was so, but I mean, and this still actually happens and it's an interesting, but the money, I mean, I do actually, I did actually have people, strangers come up and ask for money. I mean, like for real. I mean, even in a way that it's sort of, and I think that that is a strange part of the public aspect of it is like, you know, you, these, the details of all of these things are,

are published. Well, and often incorrect, which is no one. I want to hear that, but that's also true. No, no, I know. And that's what's also irritating. And then you don't want to have to, like, then you don't want to have to correct anybody. It's so awkward. Well, and I also wasn't just speaking about, like, the money part.

No, no. It was just about the, we became much more accessible to people. Yes. Meaning people saw us a lot more. And it was a time in my life from which you can never go back from that, you know. That is true. It changes your privacy. It changes, you know, you and I would talk about, like, it changes the role of your

children and where you're public and where they're not and you know people can't take pictures of anybody else's children but they can take pictures of famous children playing you know and posted on the internet and that's very strange to me that my children know that there are pictures of them yeah that were taken literally like through bushes yeah of them like walking with their dad and playing ball and it's very very strange the profile of these characters that that we all became known for you know and each had particular quirks um you know and i like to point out we were were a show that really didn't mention diagnoses. We were a show that just sort of like, I mean, our show existed pre the, you know,

the phenomenal identification of diagnoses that we sort of all live in now, you know, like, what label do you get and what box do you fit in and what medication should we give you? And, you know, those are things that we do talk about a lot more now than we did, let's say, when Big Bang started. And, yes, my character was highlighting, you know, an aspect of Sheldon's. character that, you know, I mean, he had been sort of asexual, you know, he had been this, and many people were very upset when I came on because they wanted him to stay that way.

Chaste. Yeah, he's sweet little, sweet Sheldon. I guess I would be curious because, you know, your character had his own, you know, quirks and his own, you know, fixations and sort of delusions of grandeur in certain ways, but, you know, a lot of the sort of beloved aspects for many people of your character was in particular, your character was in particular, portrayal of a certain amount of neurosis, which Chuck Lorry has talked about is a lot of his stuff, you know, that went into Wallowitz. And I'm kind of curious, you know, we often got a lot of, you know, attention for the Jewish aspects of your character and, you know, sort of that stereotype,

you know, that Carolyn Sousie so beautifully, you know, played of that kind of like Jewish mother's son dynamic. But I am curious sort of how you think of your character in terms of, you know, you you know, his profile, like his personality profile. It's a phenomenal question and also she totally moved away from you talking about her. I noticed that pivot. Okay, good. It's totally on to me now. Well, I'm going to, I'm going to sling this back at you.

Because, first of all, I. Was I the reason that you were so good? Yeah, yeah. No, I, wow. It's funny, you know, I'm not saying this to avoid this conversation, but I, I, I, I, I think I let go of things so quickly after I shoot them. I mean, well, that's not always true. I can definitely fixate on things as well.

But in terms of like once the whole project is sort of in the past or the press is done and all of that, I like can't remember what happened. And people are, I was like, what was your favorite moment? I mean, I just don't remember. But I do remember the character, Howard Wallowitz. And yeah, you're asking you're asking about. I mean, he had a pretty big maturation and trajectory, I would say, in some ways, one of the, maybe the biggest arc of these characters. Like, everyone grew. And, like, Sheldon's arc was so tiny, which is what was so brilliant that you could have a, you know, 12-year journey.

And he's moved one space on the game board. But, you know, because I started out as this just Lothario sleezed. out kind of scummy guy that was, you know, had some, you could empathize a little bit with him. And, but it was, it was a little bit pathetic and, and probably inappropriate, too, by today's standards, I would say. But, you know, you watched him go from being this failed ladies man, being infantilized, you know, by his mother living at home and ultimately having, you know, a wife and two kids and having kind of, you know, shed some of that snakey skin. But yeah, there is, I do think probably early on I embodied, I don't, you know, I think, didn't we all just embody different parts of the writer's personalities? I mean, there was, there were a lot

of stereotypes. I do remember early on, like, Jewish ones particularly, that I was sort of like, I wanted to just be a little smarter in moments. And I, I didn't, you know, I do remember having a conversation with Chuck about that early, early on. It was a little bit contentious. And not, I didn't mean anything by it in any kind of like, I wasn't trying to be critical or make any sort of judgment about the quality of the show. But I sometimes think we want to aim higher, you know? And part of it also is, I would say is a little bit of just the self-loathing and maybe not particularly connecting with like jokes about Israel bonds and things like this,

you know, which it's just, I don't know. Sometimes it's like pretty low-hanging fruit. And I did talk to check about it. And yeah, he kind of balked at first and sort of snapped for a second. And then I said, hey, I just want the show to be, you know, as good as it can be. And I think, like, most of the comedy and the work is sort of done at the moment you see me with this face, this hair, these purple pants. Like, we don't need to put a hat on a hat and make a joke about, you know, some, you know, yes, I live with my mom. Like, we get it.

Like we know it. And I just think, and he was receptive to that. And I remember he said, hey, it's Thursday because, you know, we started our weeks on Tuesdays. And so he was saying, like, let the show trust. Like, the show is we going to make changes. And you know what? That model kind of stayed true the whole time. Those writers were geniuses at really putting their ear to the ground.

Does this work? Does the rhythm of this work? Does the story work? Is the audience understanding it? and, you know, are we going too far? And, you know, so anyhow, I think, yeah, the show evolved. And again, not to keep putting it back on you, but I blame you for the evolution of the show and Melissa. And, yeah.

There's a feeling I have about kind of for all of us that, like, once this phenomenon happened, you know, once we were on this show and once you get past a certain number of years or a certain level of success or notoriety, whatever it is, like, it's almost the end of your career. in a way. Yeah, no, no, I know what you're saying. And also this is something I like to be really delicate about because this is not, I'm not saying this for people. It's like to feel bad for rich people or like feel bad for stars. But in terms of like when you think about any life trajectory, right? And we can use yours as an example, right?

You're like, I'm going to be an actor and I'm going to like lay it all on the line, right? And I have a practice and I have a discipline. I'm like, I devote my life to this, right? and you're working so hard. And it's not that you don't want to succeed, but you can't imagine that something might happen that literally would change your life to the point that things like going to the supermarket do not happen like they used to.

You don't just like, if you want to go away with your family to Palm Springs for the weekend, like that just doesn't happen anymore. People know who your spouse is. People know everything you do. If you are an alcoholic and you end up in rehab, like everyone's going to know. You know what I mean?

Like, you don't have... Or will they? You no longer have, like, not just a normal life, whatever normal means, but you don't have the life that you kind of planned. And I think this happens to lots of people all the time. Like, when you have kids, like, when I had kids, I was like, what? Yeah. I thought I knew what was, like, how is...

You have one kid and then you have a second. Also that. That is, this is exponentially harder. Well, but I'm saying that, like, things happen in our life that are extremely different from what we planned in many, many ways. And like if anyone had told me what actually having a child was like, I either wouldn't have had one. Or I would have been like, why try and have a job? I need to move somewhere where I can just be home all the time and deal with this child and go to therapy.

Because that's about the only things that can happen if I want to do this and not lose my mind. And for me, a lot of that does come from what my childhood was like, the fragility and anxiety with which I entered the world. but I wonder sort of what you're reflected. It's not like we don't work again or we can't work again, but it's almost like there's nothing to strive for because you've succeeded, right? Yeah. As an actor, like you did it, now it's someone else's chance.

Yeah, that is something that the pandemic really just magnified. For me, I don't know about for you, but it was like take away all of the elements that are the construct of your identity. You know, take away your job, take away, in our case, the fame or the attention, take your kids out of school, take all of the social life that you have away. And actually do a cheap. Take away your hair dye and your manicures too while you're at. Grow your hair long and sit at home, talk to your therapist over the phone, try to

figure out whether he's listening or making faces at you. And, you know, I was running five miles a day. Again, I went crazy. I mean, I didn't actually feel crazy, but now that I look back, actually, I think it prevented me from going crazy. But I do think, again, I went a little too far. I mean, I was running. I don't have much weight to lose.

I mean, I ran myself kind of into the ground. I looked like Gallum. My feet were hurting, but I was talking to my therapist. I was running. I was with my kids. I was helping them in school, trying to learn enough French to help them do, you know,

second grade French math because they're in a French school. What the fuck was that that we were thinking? We didn't know we were going to have to be at home, trying to get the internet working. You know, so like it was... All of it in French. Yeah, the French internet is a nightmare.

But, no, it just, it was, so it actually, but it was kind of like, you know, it was almost like Walden Pond or something. It was like there was some element where you go, all of a sudden, you're digging so deep into what life is about that it's like nature, you know, like the grass, like the clouds. And again, very privileged way to exist through this pandemic. And I was very aware of that. And I am aware of that. And I guess the benefit of it was that I could sit there

with nothing, but having the security, both from a health standpoint, and financially to do that. And actually, you know, I felt like I do feel like it allowed a lot of reflection. It allowed a lot of, you know, contemplating what it is that I want to do and why I want to do it. Because in terms of, I guess, creatively, but then also that leads, again, I'm like, no, no, no, what's beyond creative or work? Like, what are we doing here? Like, why are, what are we doing? And I, and then how are we ever going to come back from this?

and the reintegration for people who have anxiety or, you know, in some ways I felt like the very beginning, I was like, why I've been preparing for a pandemic when a life? Like every day is a global catastrophe. So I understand how to navigate these waters. And then it kind of became, you know, after about a year of it, it was like, well, that immunity wore off. And now I'm, you know, I'm just running from my demons and shedding more weight than I have. And, um, I'm just like trying to to assess all of this, I think. And so to relate that back. To come, yeah, to come back around to what you're saying, I think I did have, and I have had moments since we finished the show, which is like, oh, my God, that was 12 years.

Like that, and that's a chapter. And it's done. And I still, I actually thought about this yesterday. I kind of, I, there's a part of me that is like marvels at it, that we did that, that I, that we, you know, in the same way you kind of think, wow, you look at your kids. you're like, I went, I did all, I went through junior high and all these, I remember that feeling and like the homework, the stress, the school, the excitement. Like, and I can't believe that part of my life is behind me. Sometimes I'm grateful and sometimes I really long for it. And then you think like, oh, we got on the show. We got that success. It was the, it ran forever. We had these milestones. And that's done. I can't believe it. And you think about all the people we've looked up to and all the careers of those people. and how, like, you think about how old they were or how many seasons this thing ran or whatever it is and you're like in relation to you because it kind of contextualizes it. And then there's

a despair that I find that comes very quickly after that, which is like, will I ever do this, I don't want to do the Big Bang theory again, but like will I have the kind of run or just the outlet or something that is rewarding or something that can. can kind of accompany this other piece of, you know, I hate to use the word legacy, but I did think a lot about that during the pandemic, which is like, what do we leave, you know, like, what do we, what, you know, and it's, I think there is some sadness for me that comes not, you know, in, oh, I'll never work again, but just, I don't know. I guess it's back to just being unemployed between jobs. And, you know, I clearly have a pretty deep intent. with my own self-worth and how that pertains to my work. Is there also something about finding yourself again? You know, that character is so iconic that to do another piece of massive work, it's to distance yourself from how you're seen and the legacy of that character.

I like that challenge. I just think that it can be a pretty big inhibitor at times. And that's okay too. as long as it's not closing the doors completely. If there's a crack in that door that I can kind of bust through, then I'm happy. But like, you know, the things that I've done outside the show are wildly different. But there is, I feel like the actual, the associations and the pigeonholing and the sort of coded language sometimes that I hear that comes along with whether I'm auditioning for roles or just trying to even get an audition or trying to get a meeting, all that stuff that comes along with it tends to come from people who. who I just don't think are all that familiar with it.

I don't know if you find, I don't feel like the people that have all these judgments about, you know, what we're able to do or what the associations are, I don't feel like they're not watching the show. Like, and that's fine. I don't even, in fact, I don't think that would help. I rarely really like to talk a lot about, like,

nostalgic aspects of our show, just personally, because there's so many things that were so personal that, you know, obviously, Jessica Radloff has this book and like we talk about like all the things and like I think she said Jim spoke to her for like 73 hours and I'm like I can't I don't I can't and I remember like when we all sort of like when we found out that this that we were ending like even then like I I didn't really do any public like I did all of my processing privately and I think many of us kind of were like it's this is us you know and I think what I think about also is when people ask like well was you your favorite episode, what was your favorite moment. Those also left my head. Like I would do a script. I don't even remember what happened last week. And that's sort of how, just like how I roll. And many of us were and are kind of private people that way. And obviously I live a large life social media wise. But what I do remember is that there's a feeling that you get when you have a workplace with people

that you enjoy. And that is something I know is very, very hard to find. And, you know, while we, obviously everyone has different personalities and people have good days and bad days like i was on that said you know during my divorce you know i was there during my father getting sick my father died i had a significant car accident that required two surgeries like this was the place that i went every day you know and it's it's it's very hard to encapsulate that you know when people like ask about like reflecting back on big bang and i don't know why people love to to ask if we're gonna do a reunion. And I'm, I always wanna ask like,

what do you want, not for just from that question, but like I wonder what people want, you know? And obviously they wanna like, see the characters, and it's fun, but like for me, we existed at a time in all of our lives when that can't be replicated. Like we were together for so much of, I mean, Melissa had a kid, like, you know, all these things, like you had kids. We became adults, like we became different people.

And like, to me, why I called, couldn't ever recreate that. But one of the things that I remember, you know, I did see a huge shift in you and in the way that you composed yourself. And one of the things that I really was so excited about is that I found a fellow nail biter. And over the course of the work that you've done on yourself, you left me behind and you stopped biting your nails. I think I was biting them during one point of this interview which you can highlight. But I'm curious just you know, it doesn't have to relate to Big Bang per se, but just kind of like when I think about the person who is Simon Helberg, right? Like the person who grew up with your parents and your brother and in your life and like your career and where it ended up, what did you go through? You know, like what was your anxiety and how did you see it shift? And I know you did start doing therapy and, you know, but I'm just curious what you sort of remember of that shift for you. Oh, you can see I'm already like grooming my chest. I had to replace the nail biting with something.

Yeah, I, oh my gosh. I mean, I, you know, I'd say like the peak of my darkness was probably, it started around. When I came on the show. Amy Farrow fell. No, it started right after we shot the pilots of Big Bang, right. before I was getting married, and you think, like, you know, well, I mean, that was probably the best, that was the best part, the best moment of my life before I had kids, I would say, in terms of the things that I loved and wanted and, you know, attaining those. And of course, that's when, you know, the fear of losing it is there. But in the swirl and the vortex of that storm, you don't know what's going on. And I just didn't have any way to cope with it. It was hard. And I really will say, like, I mean, I went to different therapists. I was on medications that they, you know, I think for like real high, like antipsychotic stuff, like, in cocktails of it.

And I got bloated. Yeah. And just I'm not, I don't want people to be like, he was psychotic. No, no, no, no. Those are medications that are often used for people who don't respond to, quote, classic SSRIs or kind of like your basic. Like, yeah. Yes. Well, no.

I mean, I, I, and I saw a therapist and he was a psychiatrist. And I would talk to him about the kinds of compulsions I would have. And he was sort of in that school of like, well, why don't you just stop? Which is not helpful. And so here's a bunch of medication. And there were side effects and there were things that I just was very worried and confused about and nodding off and just not myself. And seriously, I do remember being curled up in a fetal position in my dressing room multiple times. hysterical like Gene Wilder and the producers.

But really, like for a long time. And then there's that awful, ugly part of it that is so challenging to, that accompanies all of these breakdowns, which is the why am I not enjoying this? Or I'm so ungrateful or I'm so awful. I'm so superficial. I'm so, what's wrong with me? like what I you know look at all the other hardships in the world and what other people have had to go through and here I am at the highest point of my career at that you know and at this great moment in my personal life and I can't get out the door I can't get off the floor what was your marriage like I mean like how was it for your partner I mean I remember Jocelyn saying you know if you are in this state yeah I don't think you're ready to have kids you know nor would she be able to and she and she she take care of all of you.

She wasn't giving me an ultimatum. She was pointing out that I wasn't capable of having children at that point. And by the way, she was completely right. And it wasn't anything, it wasn't for lack of trying to get better. I just, you know, I was seeing different therapists. And I think that, I mean, honestly, the therapist that I see now, who you recommended, is really what turned things around for me. There was a person sort of in between who was a bit,

more crunchy and, you know, life coachy. His name is Kunal. And, um, no, um, no, but, uh, there was a woman who I saw and, um, and she was wonderful, but it was sort of, it, it, it kind of helped me get off the floor, I should say. But it wasn't until the therapist that I see now, and I was seeing him multiple times a week. I just, I, I, I didn't have the tools to deal with the pressure, the stakes of it. So I, um, um, so, um, um, so. slowly but surely got off the floor. And one of those things, I mean, it's funny talking about nail biting. I do still bite my nails a lot less, though.

But a lot of this is about the cognitive behavioral part of things, which is like literally kind of nice to be an actor, I guess, but pretending acting like things are okay. Like, are you pacing because you're nervous? Are you nervous because you're pacing? Well, both at this point. So stop fucking pacing. And it's, I mean, I'm not, now I sound like that, you know, sort of bullheaded old school psychiatrist who was like, well, stop doing it then.

A little bit like Bill Burr. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But no, but there is a point at which it's not, you don't, you want somebody to help you figure out how to change this thing. Well, and there is a science to cognitive behavioral therapy. Of course. It's called, you know, act as if in 12-step programs. And the idea is kind of like, I'll give a very basic example.

When you smile, certain chemicals are released, even if you're not feeling happy. because there's a very elaborate system that actually releases things because of musculature and blah blah, blah. And that's a micro notion. Another peak of my psychosis was driving around the car smiling all day long

because of this very phenomenal which I'm sure I didn't look weird. I mean, you know, tears still streaming down Sarah McLaughlin blasting. But actually there are these studies where kids will put a pencil in their mouth and then they do better on tests.

Have you heard about this thing too? Anyway, I highly recommend when you're on the floor, naked, lying by the phone, just smile. That's not what I meant at all, but I think everybody understand. Yeah. No more need for therapy. So, yeah, even though your heart is breaking, smile. Okay. The whole smile.

Yeah. Well, I mean, it is, it's a very, I noticed a difference, just really, you know, not that you were so problematic or anything like that, but because I am your biggest fan, I was very, very tuned into the way that you functioned and the way that you did things. And there was an ease about you. And I also, you know, knew Jocelyn

and would talk to her when we would get to see each other. It gives me a lot of hope also because I didn't know if you'd even want to talk about it. But it does give me, it gave me hope and continues to, and I think that will likely really inspire a lot of people to hear that. I will say this because I don't want to minimize it with the, you know, I'm being flip with the whole smile and the whole that, but let me just first say, I still struggle with this on a, sometimes an hourly basis. I still have incredibly difficult times. I still

see a therapist or talk to him. You are not on all those pills, though. I am not on any pills. I will say that, so the big things that changed for me were, I mean, I found an amazing cognitive behavioral therapist. I feel very passionate about that. kind of therapy. And I also feel that destigmatizing therapy generally is so important. I don't know why. I mean, I do know why there are these kind of unfortunate stereotypes about it. But I hope to destigmatize it further. I hope that the health care in this country gets better. And I hope that these are the kinds of things that people have access to. But I was kicked off my health insurance by SAG also during the pandemic. And I could rail against that for quite a while. It's just it's a

rotten, just cesspool of austerity and a punitive country, I think, that we live in, unfortunately. I really do. But I hope people have access to health care, to therapists, good ones, particularly, because, boy, there are also a lot of bad ones. You just want it all, don't you? I want it all. But so what changed for me was being very disciplined about therapy, like I was disciplined about karate or, you know. What does that mean? That means actually going.

So I saw a therapist twice a week, going every time, no matter, I mean, always going. Oh, I don't feel like it. I don't have something to talk about. You know, these kinds of things. That's my favorite thing people say. Right, right. Pick a year of your life between the ages of 10 and 15. Talk about that.

Yeah. Go. Do the actual work outside of the therapy, which is what I also think is, you know, promising and encouraging about CBT and, and, well, and is actually evidenced with CBT is that there is actual work to do. Work to do. And it's not always fun. It's usually not, actually.

It's really painful, you know, especially, yeah, of course, you could look at like exposure therapy or any of these kinds of things or any of these like exercises or I remember having a workbook for a while. You know, and then accompanying that with, of course, the other factors of diet, meditation, exercise. I would say the big things were getting very regular with therapy, meditation, and exercise. Those were my, and it took me a long time to do all three. Yeah, what's your meditation practice? Well, I went to a transcendental meditation.

We've talked about these things here. Meditated with David Lynch and some other actors, which was very Hollywood. And I did that, and I really got a lot out of it, but I did not have the did. discipline to, because TM is two 20 minute sessions a day. So you do it in the morning, you do it in the evening. Jocelyn did it the whole time she was pregnant with Addie. I just couldn't, I just, I wasn't disciplined. And maybe I'd be better at it now.

So I ended up basically kind of doing an amalgam of that, of those kinds of things. But I do it once a day. I should be regular about the time. I miss days sometimes. I'm not perfect. But I would say I'm meditating like, you know, 80% of the time. a week and I do it for 20 minutes at a stretch. And it's...

Do you listen to something or you have your own stuff you do? No, I lay down either on like a hot pad or like on the bed or on the couch or I used to do it on the floor and I kind of scan my body for a second to try to relax my muscles. And then I have a mantra in my head that I repeat over and over and it can be the TM, they give you like some kind of mantra. They don't tell you what it is. Yeah, they don't tell you what it means. You have to pay a lot of money for it.

Yeah, you pay a lot. It is. It's like an aniholic. I forgot my mantra. No, it really is. It's like, you know, it's a word that is. I actually don't even know what, maybe it is Sanskrit. I don't know what it is. They don't tell you, and they say don't. It's not about what it is. Right, of course not. I get it. Great. But I wanted to know what my men? What if it was demeaning?

No, so you, so I, now I just pick a word. Foolish Jew. That's what it meant in Sanskrit. Yeah. Yeah. Tiny character actor. Two charactery. No, so I have a word that's like, whatever. You pick a word. It doesn't matter. something that's not negative. Okay. But it's not about the word.

And you repeat it over and over. And when your mind wanders, you kind of gently come back to it. That's it. With no judgment. No judgment. You try. And I read books about all that stuff. And I worked on that and all of those things.

And once I combined therapy, exercise, and meditation, my life did definitely turn around. And what you probably noticed was me appearing to be very calm, not pacing, not biting my nails. I mean, I never said calm. I said shift. Well, relatively. That's right. And I will tell you that it was... No, I said there was an ease about you.

Once I was kind of a little more functional as a human, it literally did just become about forcing myself to sit before I'm going to shoot a scene. Oh, you used to pace. I was also a... No, we would do a speed through, a speed read through. Did you notice what happened to me? I was a pacer. You stopped pacing.

Yeah. And I also used to be... The joke was like people would walk. passed my dressing room and they were like he's never sat down. That's right. And I couldn't sit down for a year. I swear to you, it sounds, you know, but I couldn't sit down for years. And I, biting my nails and, you know, and then of course. Constant movement. Yeah, and before scenes and on the set and this and that. I still, I still pace. And sometimes I do, but I have forced, and it's always a work in progress,

but I have forced myself to behave like a, let's just say, like a regular person as, best I can because I find that those other things that are these kind of release valves for anxiety, of course, they also perpetuate that anxiety. Well, so this is what I was going to ask also, there's a lot of, this is just an example. There's a lot of alcohol like in our culture, in Hollywood culture, you know, like alcohol. There's a lot of alcohol in my car for later. It's not open. And we had to go to a lot of social events, like just in our lives together, meaning as a group also.

I know for certain that if I could not have like a glass of wine, I don't think I could stay. Yeah. Like for me and, you know, I'm literally allergic to alcohol. That happened over COVID, which is a different story and not a funny one. So I don't really drink anymore. And I did not have, but I am not an alcoholic per se. You became allergic to alcohol during COVID. Well, that's a real, that's the travesty of the pandemic.

How did you survive the pandemic without? I mean, I've never wished COVID on anyone, but at least you would have, you know, had a little departure from reality. We can talk about that as well. But what I was going to say is, for me, a lot of my social anxiety, it was like I was thrust into a career at a time. Meaning, like, when I was on Blossom, like, it wasn't so much of an issue. Like, there was no social media. There wasn't this, like, lens of the universe on me. But the level of both fame and the degree.

to which we had to go to things, awards shows, and blah, blah, blah. It added a component to my life, which, very grateful I was nominated for Emmys. It's fantastic. But it brought up a category of thing that was so incredibly painful and it can so easily be interpreted as she's not grateful. Right. She doesn't want to, oh, she doesn't want to do a dress fitting. She doesn't have time.

So what was going on for you? It was horrible. What was the pain? What was going on for? The pain is being observed that way is not something I crave. I like to perform, and I've talked about this before, I like to perform to make someone happy. I live for them to say moving on.

And even if I am not happy with it, if Chuck Lorry's happy, if Marks-Androwski, like, we're done and I get to check it off. Do you enjoy the doing of the thing? Yes, but for the purpose of, you did it right. And that's the validation. Correct. So that level of attention of like go to six dress fittings, pay $1,000 for someone to make

you sit in a chair for two hours to make you basically look like you don't have the nose you have, you don't have the chin you have. We're going to add hair extensions. Please wear three pairs of spanks because like your waist should really be smaller to highlight your breasts. And like you're curvy in a way that's not yet hip because Kim Kardashian doesn't exist yet. Right. Right.

So like. Wow. Someone said that to you. How do they know if she was coming? I want to see that designer, soothsayer. I just constantly felt like, you know, I have this deep voice and I'm like, Melissa's like, I'm Jewish too. I'm like, yeah, but look at me. You're Jillenhall Jewish.

Get out of here. No, I totally, yes, the pressures. And so for me, that's where I was going, is that like to know I could have a glass of wine, like there were many things that I did, you know, that we do. of us, like to self-medicate. And for me, like, going to events, like being able to find you, to find Jim, to find Eric Kaplan, like, our quiet writers who would just talk to me about philosophy all night. Yeah. I remember we once went to Comic-Con. There was an after-hours party. I don't remember if you were there. This was years ago. I mean, talk about politically incorrect. I won't

say who hosted the party, but there were these official parties that you would go to after your Comic-Con events. Yeah. I kid you not, there were naked women in cages dancing. Really? I definitely was not there. They were... Completely... Completely naked. Completely naked in locked cages. That's what crossed the line is the locks on the cages.

But at the same time, you wouldn't want them to get out and get hurt. Because they could slip, because there was a lot of jello about as well. But I'm just saying, like, that was considered something that was, like, a normal thing that were at this... And I remember I, like, stood in a corner with Eric Kaplan, and we were both in a kind of like a religious phase then. And we were both like, we don't want to see what's happening. This is just like not normal for a normal Friday night in San Diego. Oh, it's funny. Anyway.

No. And how, and you had to probably have a few glasses. That's what I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that doesn't everybody have a drink or two or three at those parties? Like isn't everybody kind of. Well, then it becomes a problem.

I mean, but there's, I feel like... Well, I've gone to things not drinking. It's really not fun. No, that's why, yeah, that's why everyone there is drinking because the people who aren't are home. But that's the thing. And then I was, and then I would have these, and this all happened like during those big bang years where I was like, do I have to go to things? Yeah. If I need to have that social lubricant, and I don't mean like I would get like shit-faced.

No. I just mean if I need that to go through this experience and I don't, This isn't like you have to have a child. You have to, like, this isn't something. And it just, that plagues me even now. Like, why am I dismissed as cold or standoffish or a bitch if I'm like, how about I never have to go to a thing again unless it's part of my job? Yeah. Like when can I be, I always say to Jonathan, when can I be Bob Dylan and be like, nope, I'm not going to anything ever again.

And if I do, I'm going to wear all black. And I'm not going to shower. Yeah. Well, I think you can actually. But they write about you. They put you on social media. Who, though? See, I think you and I might have a little bit.

I don't go on social media. Maybe that's... I do go on social media to read things, although I don't read things about myself because they're just not nice still, I think. When I've scanned, I see words that I'm like, that's a mean word. But I don't really care. But see, I think there's this like... I need CBT to not care.

Yeah. And CBD. But no, I mean, I think, I think that there's like a strange feeling of obligation that people have to social media because especially people who have grown up only with it where it's like, well, I remember this happening on our set too with like certain people, younger people being like, well, we need to comment on this thing. Like this thing happened and our response has to be such. It was like response. Like no one has asked the question. nobody and no one cares really either but at the same time

the age of social media is feeling like somebody's always holding a microphone up to you and always asking and at the same time it's hard to say no one cares when you're talking to somebody who has 10 million followers or whatever because the illusion is that you are in some way moving the needle the illusion is that what you're putting out there

really is actually creating some kind of change political social cultural and honestly it really isn't I mean for the most part No, and it's true. In 12 years, we went through so many cycles. We went through that dog having more Instagram followers than Kunal. Thank God. I was part of that campaign. So it's true. In those 12 years, we also saw a real shift, you know, in social media. I had two more things I wanted to ask you, and then we will let you go,ish. I did want to ask about one of your great talents is your impressions. And I'm not going to ask you to do one. I mean, you can. But I did want to just give it a little

space because I do always tell people to look up, you know, the appearances you've done. You know, you've, you've been on some very famous shows doing some very famous impressions. The famous ones do tend to work better than that. So this is my eighth grade teacher. No, but, but one thing that I do want people to know about you is, and this is something that, like, if I were ever to blend neuroscience and acting, this was another place that I cast you in my mind because what you have and it's, you You don't just imitate voices, which you do. You have an ability. And like I said, as a scientist, there is a way that you access parts of your vocal range and

your, like, there's specific parts of your brain. Like, there are areas that you, that people with your ability. It's very, it is a very unique talent. But it is not simply the voice. Yeah. There is an embodiment that takes over, you know, when you do impressions. And it's a very special thing. and I really, we definitely should link to some of them.

It's really special. But I did notice there's a new Nicholas Cage movie out. Oh, I want to see it. I want to see it so bad. And that is one of the ones that you do tend to do. But anyway, I just, I needed to mention that because it's very special. It's not special just because it's funny. And I'm sure to some people it's like, oh, Simon's really funny.

He does funny impressions. But there is an embodiment where you really do get to see what it's like for someone to have a very, very specific. specific skill. There's something very special about that ability and being able to see it. And it's one of my favorite things. But you also, Simon can pick up on like, if we met a person just like a guest actor or a executive or someone that's not like a famous persona, very quickly Simon could clock it, like clock it so completely. When we had Stephen Hawking on. Oh, yeah. So Simon's character had an impression that he would do of Stephen Hawking. And I, I got to witness, you do that impression in front of Stephen Hawking. He was on our stage. He came to watch a run through.

I remember Simon expressing, I can't remember if it was among us or to Mark, you know, gosh, like, this feels really like, oh, it feels really weird. And I remember saying like, gosh, that's like, that's why I love Simon. Like, he's so sensitive and he's, you know. And everybody assured Simon, it's okay. Stephen knows. It's totally. And what I thought I would see, I don't know why this makes me emotional. What I thought I would see is a muted performance by Simon because of his extreme sensitivity and like, you know, cognitive like understanding what was going on. And what happened was, and we can send this to your parents so they know how amazing you are in case they weren't sure, what I saw was literally the finest impression that Simon had ever done. Because like, you don't have it in you to not do it perfectly. And so that's, and like, and like, Like that's powerful.

And it was really powerful to see. It's something that was not filmed. It was just for us. But, I mean, what we say is like, you sold it, right? But you sold it in such a vulnerable situation. Like, such a profound, profound situation. And it was even better than it had ever been, you know? And that's like one of my favorite memories of you.

I stole a piece of his soul. That's how I, that's my secret. Do you remember I stood up after I did it and I saluted him? I was very, very nervous about that because it's, well, it's making fun of, in some way, it's kind of making fun of his disability to some degree, but it's also at the same time it's honoring the person that he is. There's only so many ways you can impersonate a person. Well, in our culture now, you know, so many things we did on Big Bang would not, yeah,

would not fly, but what I think is, you know, that it is such a specific. talent that you have and I just imagine that you and Jocelyn every night you're like, all right, here's the impression of the day that I'm not allowed to do on social media. Oh, yeah. She could not have a deeper eye roll at this point to my nonstop monologing as she's brushing her teeth in bed. She's a very special woman. No, no, she's very loving. No, to be able to tolerate you, I mean, exactly. No, I mean, but I do remember you saying, oh, you said, I just wish I could crack open your head and study your brain, which I think was actually a lot of, that you said on the show or someone said that line on the show.

I think it was an amazing show. And you said it to me. And I remember you said it to me in the episode where I did all those impressions. Yeah. Where we were playing Dungeons and Dragons. Yes. Yeah. And you were like, no, I want to see what happens.

Like what parts light up because it is a weird kind of savant like talent to have, I guess. And I say that because I feel in some ways like I'm not even fully responsible. I say it because it's like sort of a gift to some degree that I don't. ask for or, you know, maybe don't always even want. But at the same time, it's also something I worked insanely hard on too. Like everything else we're talking about because I had to like, you know, when I was auditioning for whatever, Mad TV or Studio 60 or these things are doing the cage things. Like I think it is the sort of nexus of like a talent, which is, I guess, implies that you sort of inherit it or you kind of are predisposed to it in some way. And then there's the honing of it.

So, but I think there are parts of my brain that definitely don't light up that are like dark all the time. And I, you can ask Jocelyn about that too. Or it's like, what is happening? Like, what is wrong with you? I don't know. But then there are other parts that I, yeah, I guess I don't know what kind of weird superpower it is to, to pick up on people. And I do, I don't know what happens to that. It does feel a little like, sometimes I think of like the kind of the scope of person.

personalities and people and the way that we exist as a species, almost like in the way that an organ, like a Hammond organ, like an organ that you'd play that has drawbars, is designed where like an organ, you know, if you push all the drawbars in, there's no sound, and basically each bar you pull out, I think it has, I can spend a long time as I played in a ring, but it has like, I think it has eight kind of different, you can pull it out from one to eight basically, eight is all the way out. And there's, you know, I don't even know how many, whatever, 15, 20, something. And with each kind of variable, you can imagine all the variables in there, you get a different sound, even between the one and the two. And then, of course, you can add the Leslie, you can have vibrato, you can add the percussive parts, all these things.

And I kind of think that's like in that, it's, like, across the entire scope of civilization is like just a giant organ. And you can kind of tune in to the different sounds that people make if you're able to find the right degree of and the right algorithm of these drawbars being pulled out. I know that sounds like kind of hippie-dippy. No, this sounds like we have two dueling Big Bang cults, either the Canal Cults or this one. You want to join my organ cult, man? Hey, I got the world's biggest organ. No, no, but I mean, but I sometimes think about that. I mean, I don't think that is actually, I'm not trying to prove that.

So don't, don't test that theory. But no, but I feel like there is like, you know, we're all kind of walking. We're all breathing in the same air and, you know, breathing it out. And so, I don't know, there's like certain, you close, you open and close certain valves. And maybe if you do the right ones, you can. But while I breathe out, it says, foolish Jew. Yeah, exactly. And then you just got to redirect back to your mantra, which is cool Jew.

That's my mantra. No, that's actually a really beautiful, beautiful way to put it. Simon, thank you so much for talking to us. I did nothing but talk. I'm sorry if I talk too much. I mean, Jonathan, I wish you could have been here in person, but this has just been so... It would be weird if he was behind the curtain. And you just made him.

I just step out. I've been zooming from the other room. Yes, that would be... No, Simon, this is really great. Simon, just as the last thing, do you mind just telling Miam, we got it and we're moving on? We got it. Moving on. All right, from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have.

We'll see you next time. It's my and Beallix Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience Ph.D. or two. One, fix you. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.