Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Steve Hassan: Spotting a Cult, Hidden Hypnotism & Indoctrination in the Digital Age

Episode Date: June 17, 2021

Steve Hassan, world-renowned mental health professional and cult & undue influence expert, breaks down classic cult tactics and how those techniques have evolved into the digital age. He details his own indoctrination into the Unification Church of Sun Myung Moon, his subsequent moment of realization that he was a cult member, and his intense deprogramming experience. Mayim and Steve discuss 21st century sects like Scientology, NXIVM, and QAnon, and how cult ideologies may have led to the Capitol insurrection in January of 2021. They explore ways to identify cults and abusers through their authoritarian features and methods they use, such as disorientation, "love bombing", social-psychological compliance, covert hypnotism, neuro-linguistic programming, and deep fakes. Hassan emphasizes media literacy in order to avoid these organizations and provides tips on how to engage with a loved one involved in a cult. Mayim and Jonathan discuss society's servitude to technology and debate about potential solutions. Steve Hassan's Website: https://freedomofmind.com/ Steve Hassan's Books: https://www.amazon.com/Steven-Hassan/e/B000APQYV4/ BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I got really angry, and I said, I don't care if Moon is like Hitler. I've chosen to follow him, and I'll follow him to the end. Then it got caught up to me. I had this chill, went down my spine. That was a big shift that I reacted that way. Hi, I'm Mayambiolic, and welcome to my breakdown. This is the place where we break things down so you don't have to. It's Myambiolic's breakdown.

She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two And now she's going to break down. And boy, are you going to be glad that we are breaking things down today so you don't have to. Today we're going to be breaking down cults and the mental shifts that occur when you are indoctrinated into an authoritarian way of thinking. We cover cults with Steve Hassan, a former member of a cult who was deprogrammed in the second. and then became a D-programmer. He's a world-renowned expert on undue influence and cults. And boy, we talk about everything from, I mean, the cult that he was in, to QAnon, to Nexium, to Trump.

It's a really, really, it's a great episode. And, and I mean, I think they're all pretty great. Steve and I have a very similar speech pattern, which I tried to rein in. It's actually our second time speaking to him because the first time he and I just kept interrupting each other all the time. So I tried to do better. this time. I mostly succeeded. But before we get into more about Steve, I'd like to introduce you to Jonathan, Cult of Personality, Cohen. Hello, Ma'am. I have so many intros for you that I was writing just now. I wanted to open this episode and say, Steve, am I in a cult? Because Ma'am is extremely charismatic. And authoritarian. And authoritarian. And I want you to say, meet Jonathan Cohen. My favorite person to interrupt.

You are my favorite person to interrupt. Also, we dress like twins at my request. So that's another piece of evidence that maybe this is an unhealthy. I mean, I was into it too. I agreed to it. Today, I'm actually really pleased with what happened today. For those of you who are listening, Jonathan and I were matching outfits or coordinated outfits.

Coordinated, not always matching. Sometimes we're similar but different. Today, we're like doing a little yin-yang action because my outsides. his inside, and his inside is my outside. And if you want to take a look at it, head over to Miami-Bi Alex's YouTube channel, click the little bell notification to get notified of new episodes. I don't usually, I want to talk more about our outfits. I don't usually wear pastels.

I would consider this a pastel. I find pastels offensive. And my older son is colorblind and actually cannot see most pastels. They look brown or gray to him. So not that I have to dress according to my colorblind child, But I just don't really like pastels. But we're in kind of a pastely blue. And I'm wearing black over the blue.

And Jonathan's wearing blue over his black. It's very, very cute. I actually think we should get our own outfits for NB because if we're going to try to aspire to the level that OSHA had in his group in Oregon. We need uniforms. Every really good cult has their own dress code. And I don't think we're getting there yet. This is a terrible way to start this episode by joking about cults, because it is a very serious matter. No one should take my joking as not taking this episode seriously.

I joke to make light of things because what does Fred say? Fred is my younger son who, after we watched the movie 1917 with Jonathan, which is very intense. Super, I mean, World War I. It's very intense. There's not a lot of dialogue. There's a lot of war. I mean, all these things. Which makes it even more appropriate to talk during it. there's no dialogue because you don't have to worry about missing the line.

If you're not watching, you can't see the death stare that I'm giving the camera right now. So Jonathan makes jokes throughout the whole movie. And Fred is increasingly more and more upset, which I don't know why Jonathan can't pick up on that. The child is like a very, very strong emotor of feelings. You can tell that he's upset. And Jonathan, like any 15-year-old boy, just doesn't let up. So at the end of the evening, everybody goes their separate ways. And Fred said, you know, Mama, I think Jonathan makes jokes about things when things feel too emotionally intense for him.

I think he was like 11 at the time. Ten. I said, you know what, Fred, you're 100% right. He's a very insightful child. Anyway, back to cults. Back to cults. Well, there may be some things that John. Jonathan says in this episode that don't get cut and you'll see that when things get intense,

Jonathan does tend to crack a joke. All that to say that I'm not making light of the situation because it is very serious. And if you know anyone who has been exposed to this or you've lost a loved one, I am not making light of it whatsoever. Maim, let's do the word of the day today. And I have five words for you to choose from. The first one is cognitive dissonance. The second one is NLP.

The third one is covert hypnotic techniques, stuff you use on me every day. The other next one is alternative reality gaming and the final option is love bomb. All right. Because all of those need an explanation, I'm going to do super chick-chalk through the first four and then I'll talk about the fifth. What's the first one? Say it again. Word of the day. No, you can't choose all of them.

I stack these and keep them for future episodes. You can't say these things that are all in this week's episode that people need to know about. Just even like, let me just give two sentences about each. And then I'll do the last one. Let's just do love bombing. Oh, I'm so mad at you right now. Word of the day. I choose love bombing.

I trust that people will get to know what those other terms are through this week's episode. But in the meantime, I'd like to talk about love bombing. So love bombing is something that's often done not necessarily consciously, at least in my experience. But love bombing is a way is an attempt to influence someone with attention and affection, but like a lot. And it can be used either positively or negatively. And it can be, I'm going to say can be like a million times. Can be, can be, can be, can be. It can be part of a cycle of abuse. I mean, many people would say that falling in love with someone does leave you susceptible to being love bombed because in those early stages, you know, of love and infatuation, there's often like a

tremendous amount of attention and affection that's showered on you and that's awesome. But what love bombing is is it is when those, I don't want to say techniques, but when those things are used for the other person to specifically get something that they want. And we talk about it in terms of cults because it is a method that is used to try and sway people who are susceptible to participate in, you know, come to this meeting, come do this, like, do this. And it can feel very oppressive, but in the moment it can also feel very, very good. So it can be very confusing. That's what love bombing is. It was a term that was actually coined by the members of the Unification Church of the United States in the 1970s. And love bombing was also

used when referring to the Moonies. Now, why am I talking about all these things? Because our guest today is Steve Hassan, and Steve is actually super awesome. Steve got his Ph.D. in his 60s. He had several other degrees, but I don't know that I've met someone who got their doctorate that late in life. He's a world-renowned expert on undue influence and cults. He's a mental health professional. He speaks. He consults. He's written four books. He's been helping people leave destructive cults since 1976 after he was deprogramed from Sun Myeong-moon's Unification Church. He's the founding director of the Freedom of Mind Resource Center.

His books are combating cult mind control, freedom of mind, and most recently, the cult of Trump. He's also written articles and chapters and blogs. He has a website. We're going to link to it. If you're into anything that we talk about with Steve, you have to spend time on his website and honestly, like, read his books. He has also been instrumental since his deprogramming in being.

a deep programmer. He has developed assessment, intervention, and recovery approaches. He's developed a curriculum. He speaks to advocacy groups. He's one of those guys. He does a bunch of TEDx talks. His work has been translated into 10 languages. He's frequently interviewed, especially by us. And I'm very, very excited to talk to Steve Hassan. Yes, Jonathan. Right before we bring him on, just a note that the ending of this interview are a wrap up in conclusion. is nothing like anything you guys have heard before. So stick around to the very end. We see what you do, you people out there listening and watching.

We know sometimes after the interview you're like, I'm done here. If you're going to listen to one conclusion, this is the one. We have our first fight. I don't think we're fighting. I think we were getting along just perfectly. You're love bombing me and gaslighting me. Let's let the audience decide. Post comments.

Let us know who's right so we can find the ultimate capital T truth. Welcome, Steve. Break it down. Hi, Maia. Nice to see you. Thanks for having me on. Nice to see you. Full disclosure, because we are super honest here at Miami Biolog's Breakdown.

This is the second time that we've had the pleasure of speaking to you. And the first time, I really enjoyed it. And we're going to have a great time today as well. But I think what we decided is that you and I might be, maybe more closely genetically connected than anyone thought, because Jonathan noted we have a very similar speech pattern and also the ability to kind of like bounce around from here to there, mostly my fault.

But we decided that we would try and rein in Mayam's excitement at speaking to you and try and give you more of an opportunity to talk a bit about your story. But literally the last time we spoke to you, what day was it, Steve? It was January 5th, the day before the failed insurrection at the Capitol. So we had done this incredible interview with you, and you have an unbelievable story, which I'm trying not to get too excited about all over again. You have an unbelievable story, which we'll get into in a minute. But literally the day after we spoke to you, the world changed.

And the United States changed in ways that, I mean, I have. had not imagined and many had not foreseen. And we really felt like we're so lucky that we know you and have this relationship with you because we'd like to get more specifically into really the cult of personality, forgive the expression, surrounding where really the reflection of the shift in this country has led us. So myself and other researchers and Q&ON and other things were expecting some violent thing that day. There was a lot of surprises, but what wasn't a surprise was that people from my former cult were there and messaging, it was Antifa that was doing all the bad things, and then the Mooney's newspaper at Washington Times

echoed this information. And I have to just say that I remembered fasting for Nixon during Watergate because Moon said God wanted him to be president. And so when I saw the guys praying and how God wants Trump to be president, all I could think of was, I'm so grateful my family rescued me and I got to have a life for 45 years because I could have been there. That's a great place for us to start. So the reason I'm so excited to speak to you is that when I was in junior high school, well, I went to camp through my synagogue, you know, Jewish camp throughout the year. And we would go up to Malibu and we had different topics every weekend. We would go through five five weekends a year from the time I was like 10 years old till I was 19. And you would meet other

Jewish kids from all over the city. And we had a strong focus on sort of like where Jewish life fits in with the modern world. And one of the weekends, the topic was learning about cults and how people can be swayed to believe things that are not true. And in many cases, very damaging and harmful. And we watched a documentary. Well, it wasn't a documentary. It was like a, it's kind of of a docudrama. Was it the wave or ticket to heaven? We saw the wave. We watched the wave.

So we watched the wave and it's a very, I mean, it probably feels very dated now, but back in the 80s, it was awesome. Do you want me to quickly explain what it's about? Explain what the wave is that I saw at Jewish camp. So there was a high school, I think history teacher in California. My memory is Ron Jones or Ron something. and he was teaching about the Holocaust, and his students didn't believe that people would turn in their neighbors. So he decided to start this club called the wave and with the salute and everything else,

and you see very quickly within an hour all of the group dynamics, all the authority, compliance stuff, the shunning of anyone who asks questions and the kicking them out and the, censorship of the, I mean, it was classic playbook cult. And I think it came out in the 70s or I saw it in the 80s. So essentially, you know, what, what came from this was a really important discussion, which I've never forgotten. I remember that weekend. I remember watching it. I remember how astounded we were. And, you know, as someone whose grandparents fled Eastern Europe and fled the pogroms that led up to the Holocaust, you know, I grew up with this notion. looming very large that people, people are very, very pliable and people are very easy to manipulate.

And especially when they are struggling financially or emotionally, they can be preyed on by people who have a tremendous amount of power and sway. So that's how I know that you were a part of this cult that was called the Moonies, which it's hard to say that it was popular. but it was a significant movement. And you were, and otherwise like, you know, you were kind of a normal kid, like going to college and like doing your life. Tell us how you became part of a global cult. So I grew up in flushing Queens, New York. I will say 1.3 miles from Donald Trump, who grew up in Jamaica Estates, their wealthy side.

I was on the Union Turnpike side with attached small row houses, but I was that close. The youngest of three, introvert, bookworm, not a joiner, not looking to become a right-wing fascist at all. But my story is I was an upper junior. I had skipped eighth grade because they explained I could get out of school faster if I took the, the accelerated thing. My girlfriend dumped me. I'm in the cafeteria waiting for my next class,

and three women just flirted with me and started asking me questions. Could they sit at my table? And I knew nothing about cults. The only thing my father had taught me about, because he was a hardware store owner that he got from his father.

He said, Steve, you can always tell by the eyes. You can, like, look them in the eyes. And if someone's like bad, you'll, you can tell. And it was like, oh, such bad advice. Because these women were looking me right in the eyes. And I was like, wow, they're really into me. Because maybe I'll get lucky with one of the three.

Anyway, I was living at home, going to Queens College, working on the weekends as a banquet waiter at a holiday inn in Hempstead, Long Island. I had long black hair and and a lot of the old, old people I would serve thought I was John Lennon because I looked a little bit like him and I wore the glasses. Anyway, I worked every weekend. That's how I made my money. And I was invited by these women to meet their friends and have a free dinner. And then they said, we'll have a lecture. And I was like, I like, I like, I like, I like, like you, but I don't need about lectures. And they're like, well, we're going to away this weekend.

It's going to be really great. And we need you. You're really going to be fun. And I'm like, stop bothering me. I'm not free on weekends. I'm a waiter. Anyway, they just kept love bombing me, which came to become a very famous term for effusive praise, unrelenting, how special you are, Jonathan.

And my, oh, my goodness. This is how I got on the podcast. Anyway, they just several days of this, and I was like, stop inviting me. I'm telling you, well, listen, if I'm free some weekend, then I'll go. I said something stupid, but like that. But when I gave my word, I would like honor it, of course, because that's the kind of person I am. And comes Friday, I call up my boss, what time you need me in. He said, Steve, you won't believe it, but the wedding's been called off.

Take the weekend off. And I was in a state of dissonance. Weekend off, great. I promised I would go. This is so bizarre. I'd never had a weekend off in over two years. Maybe I'm meant to go. I called them up and they, oh, great, of course.

Look, come on up. I get in the van. We drive up to Tarrytown, New York, to a whole. former Seagram's estate, multi-million dollar estate for, we're driving through the gates. And they say, oh, by the way, this weekend we're having a joint workshop with the Unification Church. And I went, whoa, no one said anything about a workshop. No one said anything about a church. I'm going home. Drive me back. And then they did the classic, turn it around on me. Steve, what's wrong?

Are you, do you have a problem with Christians? So all of a sudden, I was like Christians, wait a minute. And they disoriented me. Long story short, I said, I want to go back. Sorry, we're not going back. We'll drive you back in the morning. Just bring in your bags and stay the night. I was up all night.

The van wasn't there in the morning. And so, and this was way, before cell phones. This was 1974. And it became one extension to the next to the next. And then come Sunday night. And I'm like, when are we going back? I have class in the morning. And they're like, oh, this is a three-day workshop. I'm like, what? I have class in the morning. And they're like, but Steve, this is the most important information on the planet, your entire. your future and destiny depends on you knowing this information. And I think it took them about an hour to two to convince me to stay for the day.

And I stayed for the day. And my brain was like mush the last day. I remember they would ask everybody to sign reflection sheets and fill them out at the end. And I was like, I am too blown away to write anything now. I remember writing that. My brain was like mush. And then comes Monday night. The seven-day workshop starts tomorrow morning, Steve.

And at that point, I got angry and started threatening them with violence. And they drove me back to Queens. And then they kept me up for another three hours trying to persuade me to stay because this was so important. And I just said, I'm out of here. I'm going home. I went home. My parents were like, where were you? We were so worried.

And they were like that. I trust me. I almost bought a timeshare in Mexico from these same tactics. These are social psychology, compliance, influence techniques, for sure. My MBialx breakdown is supported by superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office and kind of feeling like we didn't get anything out of the experience that was useful. Maybe they're like, you're fine, drink more water.

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Make sure to mention Miami-Biolix Breakdown to help support the show. Anyway, my mom said, you look like you may be on drugs. Did they give you drugs? I'm like, I don't think so. I mean, I ate the food, but I don't think so. I think I haven't slept much for the last three days. And she's like, I think we should go see the rabbi tomorrow mornings. So I said, sure. And I went to see the rabbi. And I wanted to, so they planted a seed in my brain, the last lecture, which I learned to do when I was lecturing. They did a pattern like this. I'm going to demo it since you like voices, Maya.

Just yours, Steve. This is, I meant, this is my best recollection of 47 years ago. So we've been listening to a lot of information this last few days, a lot of very interesting, profound things. But I'm wondering if part of your mind is wondering, maybe it's a bunch of rubbish. But on the other hand, what if? What if they do it three times? What if it's true? Could you walk away from the son of God? Let us pray.

Oh, Heavenly Father, Father, we are your children. We've been suffering for so long. And like 40 minutes of that. And then the guitars come out and... Oh, they're hitting you where it hurts, yeah. Oh, but the. point that I went back to is that what they got in my head is what if it's true, right? So when I went to see the rabbi, I'm like, is the Messiah, like, do Jews believe in the

Messiah really? And is this a possibility that a Messiah could actually come on Earth and save the planet and get rid of all this mess? And he's like, I'd be happy to discuss Torah with you and scriptures if you are wondering about Christianity. And I'm like, that's not my question. And I left. And it was like, and after I got the program from the Moonies, several major rabbis approached me because they heard I was Jewish and they wanted to hear my story. And I told them that story about the rabbis. And they said, we've got to start developing programs for the Jewish youth in America. And I'm like, yes, you do. Okay. So effectively, and again, we want to

get to sort of like more of the, you know, what you did after this. But how long were you in this cult total? Twenty-seven months. I was recruited the same month Patty Hurst was abducted from her apartment, February of 74. And I fell asleep at the wheel of a Mooney fundraising van on the Baltimore Beltway, April 23rd at 5.30 in the morning, 1976. And it was that near fatal van crash. that got me in the hospital, away from the group for weeks, that got me reconnecting in my heart with my sister, my closest relative, closest person in the world, who was the only one who didn't say I was an occult and I was brainwashed, because that's a big no-no. If you tell someone an occult or an occult, and then you're, you know, you're persecuting them and all that.

You went from being essentially a new recruit, and the, the, the, the, basic fundamental premise is that this man, with the last name moon, that he was the Messiah who was going to bring, I mean, full peace, enlightenment to the whole world, and recruiting other people and effectively getting their money as well was part of kind of the mission of seeing this happen. So for 27 months, you also, you rose in the ranks, and you talk about this a bit, you then became a person who was recruiting other people. So when you were deprogramed, which is kind of the process by which, and this is sort of the mental health piece that I also want our listeners to keep in mind, what you've described

is a manipulation that occurs in a very structured way that gets people to have this sort of group thinking and be willing to give up, in many cases, the things they hold nearest and dearest to participate in this. And it is truly, and there's some really fascinating studies about this, it's truly really a shift in who you are. Your physiology changes. Your mental state is that really of a different identity. I'm not saying it's dissociative identity disorder. That's a different situation. But when you were deprogrammed, there's then a process by which we have to break down that Steve and allow old Steve to come back. Is that correct? And what's that? How long did that process take? So I first want to state that deprogramming back in the 70s was like by force,

like kidnapping people or luring them to a location, sticking security guards. Because one of the big things to help people get out of the mind control is cutting off the constant reinforcement and indoctrination, which leaping to 2021 is such a big problem because of smartphones and platforms because people are constantly being reinforced. But back in time, for me, I had a cast on my, from my toes to my groin, my other leg was all bandaged. I was on crutches. I was on crutches. I I was Lord to my sister's house, and they took my crutches away. And I had been indoctrinated that Satan, which was everywhere, might try to attack me and take me away from the Messiah, which would end ten generations of my ancestors on my fathers and mother's sides who were stuck at low levels in the spirit world. They would be angry at me forever.

but the whole fate of the planet was at stake as well. So I was not cooperative at all. I didn't have access to a phone. I couldn't call the Mooneys to check in as prearranged. They knew something was up. They were sending the police and others to my sister's house. I had been asking to speak to my mother because I thought I could pressure hurdle, release me.

And my father gets me in the car just to get away. to bring me to another location. I'm driving on the Long Island Expressway. He's driving. I'm in the back seat. And he misses the exit on Utopia Parkway. And I think about snapping my father's neck on the Long Island Expressway in a moving car. Like I was like, I could just reach around and just snap it real fast.

Yeah, he would die. I would die. But, you know, salvation would be. moving forward. Fortunately, my brain process said, they could never break me. I'm too good a disciple. I'll prove it. And we get to the next location. And my father had hired some football figure-type people to help move me in. And I basically looked at him and I said, if they're going to try to force me to go in there, I'm going to kill them. They may kill me, but it's going to be on your conscience, dad.

What do you want to do? And he started to cry. And it went like the real Steve. My dad's crying. I've never seen my dad cry except when my grandmother died. You know, and he cried. He said, how would you feel if it was your son? your only son who meets a group of people and drops out of college and cuts off contact.

How would you feel? And it's so emotional. And it was a critical technique that I've been using in my work for 45 years to switch positions. Like I put myself in his shoes thinking, hmm, yes, he's been brainwashed by the communist media against father and the divine family. but he really truly was worried about me. And I know I have not been brainwashed, and I know this is not a cult. Right?

So I said, Dad, I'd probably be doing what you're trying to do now. You don't need to, because I'm not in a cult, and I'm not brainwashed. And he just said, prove it. Prove it. And I said, for how long do I need to talk with? Five days. And I said, so you mean at the end of five?

five days if I want to go back. He said, yes, I'll drive you there myself. But your mother and I will at least be able to sleep at night, knowing we did the responsible thing. So for five days, you were essentially deprogrammed. I fought it tooth and nail, and I'm friends with two of the deprogrammers, one's a social worker, one's a psychiatrist. Whenever they would get close to me, I'd lean forward because the Moonies do eyeball. thing. Scientologists do it too. The eyeball thing. Who are you to play God with my mind? And then they'd be like, and they'd leave, and then they come back in. And then there was one of the four people, who was the only one who was not a Mooney, his name is Gary Rosenberg, may he rest

in peace. He would just come in and go, hey, Steve, how you doing? And then I would tell him, how to deprogram me. Oh, what they're talking about there was never going to be effective. This other here is we're going to be really effective. But I didn't realize this until months after it was over when I was trying to process the whole thing. And that, again, is part of my whole thesis of my work for 45 years that deep down inside, people want help. After you were deprogrammed, you have essentially dedicated your life to helping people in the situation that you were in. You've written many books.

Only four. That's many. You've written four books. And you're training, your life practice, your life is really about being able to use what you experienced to help others. But one of the things that we find so fascinating, I mean, obviously I find so much of your story fascinating, but we live in a time when cults still exist. And in many ways, and again, this is me speaking as a total amateur, they've gotten more clever and shiny and polished and packaged. And you mentioned Scientology. You mentioned Trump. We've talked about Q and on. If you were to tell us the main features of a cult, what would they be?

Essentially, it's all about authoritarianism. It's about a control of people's behavior, their information, their thoughts, their emotions. There's a central authority, correct? Yes. but it can be an ideological authority. It doesn't have to be a human being or a living human being. That's where I disagree with some of my colleagues

who think you need to have an actual guru. I don't think so at all. But these four overlapping factors, which I referred to as the bite model, the more of these you can tick off behaviorally, like controlling sleep, controlling diet, changing your name, rigid rules and regulations. There's a whole list, and it's on my website, Freedom of Mind.com.

It's in my books. A whole list of behavior control variables, information, thought, and emotional control variables. But where groups are really bad, in my opinion, is where they create a new identity that's dependent and obedient on the group. Say it again, a new identity. A new identity that's dependent and obedient. In other words, there's an external locus of control, whereas the real person became an adult

and they think for themselves and the locus is here instead of tell me what God wants for me or you have a direct revelation from God. So therefore I have to suppress my conscience and my common sense and my critical thinking and such. but and I also want to comment dissociative identity disorder what used to be called mpd is really more understood as a result of traumatic childhood trauma over and over and over again as a coping mechanism this is more of a dissociative disorder where there was Steve Hassan son of Milton and Estelle Hassan and then there was Steve Hassan son of some young moon and hawk Hachahan, the true parents of the universe.

And he was in executive control over him and his body. And he slept three to four hours a night, forcing him to be sleep deprived and therefore not thinking clearly. And on and on and on. But what happened, back to your question about deprogramming, what happened on the fifth day of my deprogramming was this happened. And for people listening at home who are not watching the audio, what Steve is showing us is like the original Steve, who is the son of his parents, his biological parents, is underneath. And the Mooney Steve is on top and he has his two hands over. And then at the end of his deprogramming, that's switched where the original Steve comes back and takes over. Thank you, Jonathan. Exactly.

But it was like, I wrote about this in my first book, Come Back. and cult mind control, it was like being in a dark room and someone opens the Venetian blinds and midday and the light comes in and you're almost blinded because it's like, whoa. It was all of a sudden realization? Yep. And if you want, I can tell you what it was. Please. It was, it was, let me go back one day.

Fourth day, a very powerful thing happens, but it wasn't enough. But the deprogramers were trying to connect profiles of Adolf Hitler and SunYung Moon. And they were making a lot of points. And my cult self was not happy. And at what point, I got really angry. And I said, I don't care if Moon is like Hitler. I've chosen to follow him and I'll follow him to the end. And then it caught up to me.

I had this chill went down my spine, but I still wasn't out yet, right? But that was a big shift that I reacted that way. But the final day was they handed me a booklet that was published by the group where Moon was talking to congressmen and senators, and he was saying, may I ask a question of this distinguished American ladies and gentlemen? There's a controversy that I'm brainwashing American youth. Is it really possible that me, Reverend Moon, a Korean, could brainwash American youth? I know your answer is no.

My answer is no, too. I respect Americans very much. Now, for two and a half years, I was considered to be an up-and-coming rising star in the cult in many leadership meetings with him. where he dissed Americans and completely and even said how dirty our brains were and they need to be brainwashed. And that moment when I read it was the first time I had a thought, what a snake was my first thought. Like, what a liar. And as soon as it went from one part to the other, it completely flipped.

Because as soon as I let that into my consciousness, I'm like, he's not trustworthy if he's a liar. He can't be a representative of God because we teach a God is a God of truth. And it was just like a total light switch where I was like the bubble went boom. And it was so traumatizing because I just started crying. It's almost like you had an identity that you got to choose as an adult that must have felt like, you know, it's a sense of empowerment. Like, this is who I am. And the fact is, that's not, it was so, it was so not true. I mean, that's, it's so disturbing.

I can't even, I'm sorry, I can't even imagine what that process was like. It's so unbelievable. Also that, like, that you lived through that and, and do such incredible work. now in this field. So let's get to the present. Let's just do it. Because Jonathan, what's that documentary, the guy, the women having sex, the branding? Yeah, the vow. Okay, so I watched that. I've watched all the Scientology. Name a documentary. Yeah, all of them. I've watched every season of all of them. Yeah. So I watched all those. And in addition, I'm a human being living in this country at a time when there's a tremendous amount of discussion

about the former president of the United States. And I'm trying to phrase this in a way that makes it is not a political conversation, but so much of the language surrounding Trump did revolve around a lot of conversations about, is he like Hitler? Or are the liberals like Hitler? Like there became this kind of like dialogue

surrounding this. And as a person with my background, I'm very sensitive to those conversations. You know, I don't use Hitler lightly. You know, like, it's not just like, right. And so when people are like, oh, you liberals are making us feel like we're in Nazi Germany, like, of course I don't like when people say that. Do I think that like people should be, you know, that their lives should be canceled and they should never be able to work again? Because they say it in a tweet, not necessarily. but this notion that this is part of our current vernacular is trying to figure out really who owns information, who gets to own what we do and how. And the fact is there's a very specific congregation of thought, belief, intention, and practice surrounding this man who was our president.

And the question is not, is Trump a cult? but obviously you wrote a book specifically about the cult of Trump. And I do, I want from as neutral a political perspective for you to kind of explain to us what these patterns are that we're seeing, what they mean. And is this happening more? Is it because social media makes us able to, again, receive all that information constantly? Like, what's happening, Steve? Break it down.

So I agree with you that it's not useful to think of it in terms of politics. In other words, Democrats, Republicans, I don't think that's a useful frame. I think the more useful frame is authoritarianism versus democracy and rule of law and human rights. So you can go authoritarianism, pro-democracy, human rights. elitism you think of people as objects for your power, money, and sex. That's what cult leaders, how they think, and that's what they're after, power, money, and sex. Here it's about rule of law, living together, saving the planet, you know, finding, you know, the golden rule, do unto others as you want them to do unto you, survival, collaboration, and cooperation. What disturbs me is that it seems so clear to me that we are placed on this planet to live in cooperation and compassion with others. And I'm like an old school liberal where I believe you're allowed to be conservative. You know, God bless my 15 and 12 year olds, their branch of liberalism and wokeness is everyone needs to be as liberal and woke as they are.

And that's, I think, a way a lot of young people feel. But for me, I'm a true liberal. Like, you can believe what you want to, and I can believe what I want to, but when I think about the principles that guide us, fear, hate, guilt, and pursuing power, money, and sex to the detriment of women and people of color and people of a socioeconomic status that is so far from yours, that doesn't sound okay with me. I just want everyone to know that. And now I said it. And also, just to clarify, you're not describing the Republican Party, nor am I. No, I'm talking very generically. Talking about left authoritarian and right authoritarians.

This is not about that I believe that the Republican Party is the party of fear, guilt, hatred, power, money, and sex. because there are many kinds of Republicans who have existed. And, you know, I was born in 1975. I've seen a lot of Republicans come through our doors in the 45 years I've been alive. You know, Trump is not, you know, like he's not your grandmother's Republican. Like, this is a very different story. Jonathan? Also, what you said in terms of you said the word socialism, lots of people think that that's a cult,

that all that working together ruins individualism. Sure. Words matter. And you were correct, Ma'am, what we're seeing is an evolution of sophistication of knowing how to influence people, plus the digital age, plus all of our private data collected without our permission, plus AI. And the big state actors, they're wanting power, money, and sex, and they want to control the world. And for them, you know, cyber warfare and psychological warfare is the 21st century's nuclear weapons race. That's what's happened.

That was the mic drop. Jonathan, all you. I'm just like going to move my microphone away. I'm done here. That's it. You're leaving the studio. He said everything I needed to hear. The thing is, is that we're human beings.

And we've never, until the last few decades, lived in a digital environment. There's so much neuroscience being developed now. There's so much data that's being developed now that can be used ethically for the public good where people who have all kinds of deep psychological problems can be helped ethically where the locus of control is with them. But there's this dark side of the people

who want power, money, and sex, and some of the bad actors, they want to perpetuate global climate change as a hoax because they have fossil fuels, and they'll lose a lot of money if people really understand how dire it is that we get off of fossil fuels. They're spending hundreds of millions of dollars perpetuating lies, just like the tobacco industry did with tobacco. And And I'm told some of the same expert witnesses that we use by the tobacco industry, you're talking about global climate. You know, science. Science matters. And what's beautiful about science is you have hypotheses.

You don't have truth. You have hypotheses that you test out. And you're glad to get rid of a hypothesis if something better comes along that helps more. that gives deeper insights. And we all, I think, need to learn to learn and how to want to not have certainty. And that's part of the allure. I want to get back to the susceptibility factor.

Whenever there's massive economic distress, a pandemic, magnify it by 10,000, people are even more susceptible and suggestible to any authority figure that's, says, trust me, I know. That's also, I have to say it, that's also the patriarchy. That's this notion that, like, dad's going to fix it. It's also, it's, I mean, it is.

It's the basis of monotheistic religion as well. One of the most exciting things, sorry for interrupting you, my own, is the, there's the rise of women's rights and the rise of women to politics and to corporations. We need women power. conscience, empathy, communication, please. Male ego is not a great thing. What other active things can we be looking out for? Is there a way to sort of ensure that we're not getting close to one of those types of

organizations or ways of thinking? Great question. So my stance is if it's legitimate, it will stand up to sort of scrutiny and and if someone's trying to pressure you to a fast sell or to do something you're a lot you everybody needs an internal protector and like warning warning remember lost in space myam warning will robinson danger danger people need to understand most people are nice and good there's a small percentage of the population that are malignant narcissists that are con artists, there are people who have no empathy, there are people who read body language really well,

maybe they know covert hypnotic techniques too or whatever. But if you're meeting someone or some group and it sounds too good to be true, take a time out. Go to your friends and family and say, hey, before I go further, what do you think of this thing? I mean, with deep fakes, with all kinds of auditory stuff where people can be made to say anything in anyone's voice. We have to slow down. Remember, we're not digital. We may be using technology, but we're not technology. And we shouldn't be servants to technology.

I actually did a talk, a TEDx talk. Is technology controlling your mind a few years ago? Yes. The answer is yes. That's a very short TED talk. The answer is probably yes. and I have a lot to say about AI and echo chambers and recommendation engines, et cetera, and how YouTube brings you down the rabbit hole and encourages more and more extreme

thinking and content because that's what gets us stuck. And there's been so much that's been spoken about that I, you know, more eloquently than I will. But Steve, you mentioned covert hypnotic techniques. Maybe tell us a little bit more about that. So when I first got out of the cult, I started reading everything I could find on brainwashing and thought reform. I started interviewing former military intelligence officials and reading all the literature and is like, there's something missing. I don't know what it is. And four years later, and this was post-Jones Town, I was introduced to neural linguistic programming, NLP, which, um,

I was like, I used to do that. They never explained it to me, but I was told to mirror and copy the older brothers and do the lectures like with using their gesticulations and their tones of voices. Nexium did that explicitly. Yeah, so Salzman was trained by Todd Epstein, who was Richard Banler's disciple, who, in my opinion, is a psychopath. What was it about that interaction that left you with that feeling? Tell us, give us like the sketch.

He was teaching what NLP was. I need to take a moment and just say, Richard Bandler and John Grinder modeled a psychiatrist named Milton Erickson because he was getting these amazing results with clients and patients that nobody else could help. It turns out later in my research of MK. Ultra that Erickson was consulting with the CIA back in the 50s. In any case, NLP became a formulation of some of Erickson work.

Erickson was very critical of it, I should add, as are other people who are mental health professionals who learn hypnotherapy in the context of ethics. NLP has no ethics in itself. It's do what works. It's amoral as a system. And I moved with my first wife to Santa Cruz to become John Grinder's apprentice. I was like learning to be a trainer in it. And I realized this is really dangerous and this is being taught to bad people.

And I want nothing to do with this. And I left. And I was told by the Erickson Foundation, you need a master's degree if you want to study. with us. So I went and got a master's so that I could actually study with the real deal, people who are the masters in the world. So I've been flying around the world to all these conferences, learning from the top people. I don't use hypnosis in my work with my clients, but I teach them what I've learned about hypnosis. I'll show them a video, I'll explain it. So going back to answer your question, what do I mean by covert hypnosis?

It is inducing an altered state of consciousness in a person without their volition, without their informed consent in order to do something to them. And the most common thing is rape. And you can Google sex plus NLP or sex plus hypnosis and you can see many sites where with a credit card, they'll teach you how to do these techniques. Hold on. One second. There's been a lot of names thrown around that I'm not really following what's happening.

You're saying, I just want to get this right, you're saying that a component of certain cults or authoritarian figures, men, people, that there's a set of ways to speak and manipulate

that are effectively used to get someone to have sex with. against their will? Well, they might think in their mind that they're with the love of their life and not with the creepy, smelly guy that just did it to them in a bar. But yes. I think many women know what this is.

It is often an experience you have with someone where, after the fact, a week later, the next day, you realize you were told. everything that they wanted you to believe to get you into bed, right? I mean, that's a thing. I'm not talking about compliments. I'm talking about a much more elaborate, seductive, and in many cases, incredibly dishonest

and unethical set of techniques. And I'm not saying that every man in a bar is trying to rape you. I'm not saying every man in a bar is using NLP or that this is the same thing as nexium or, you know, a significant you know, cult of destruction and illegality and horribleness. I'm saying that a lot of these kinds of techniques, I think, have made their way into

a lot of our vernacular. Yeah, exactly. I don't want people to be paranoid. I don't want people to, you know, just stay home because they're so afraid. I want people to learn the techniques. I want them to arm themselves. I want them to learn media literacy so they can look at a Q&O recruitment video and hit the pause button go, was that true what they just said? Let's look it up.

Oh, BS. You know, or, you know, who is this guy? Is he really in the CIA? What's his credentials? What are the critics have to say? But when people are binge watching YouTube videos that are being suggested by algorithms and they're up late at night, they're not thinking analytically. and a lot of it goes right into your brain and it influences you. So, Steve, we're going to link to all your books and to your website. You know, if you had to say kind of, what's your last kind of word for us? You know, we've talked about a lot of things. We talked about your journey being, you know, in a cult, being deprogrammed,

yourself becoming a deprogrammer and really dedicating your life to working in this field. And we've also talked a lot about where this line of thinking goes and how far it can go and all the places that we're seeing it. What's your kind of take-home message, given the political climate, given what we saw at the Capitol? Where do you feel we're at? Oh, I'm much more hopeful than I have been for five years. So I wound up being talked into doing my doctor at age 63 because I got him.

involved with a forensic think tank at Harvard Medical School, and one of the professors said, your work is really important, but there's no quantitative studies. You need to get a doctorate and do study on your bite model and see whether or not it holds water. And he supervised my research. To answer your question, what we've been missing is a clearly understandable way to delineate ethical,

and unethical influence. The law says if you're 18, try them as an adult. If you do a crime, you did it. Now, I could have done any number of crimes in the Mooney's, including murdering somebody. That's how programmed I was. I was trained to die on command or kill on command. I was a Manchurian candidate type person. But the law doesn't have a way to deal with it. In fact, I believe the Supreme court has agreed to hear Sarnayev's case around capital punishment. He was the marathon bombing criminal who it seemed to me, I'm not an expert on the case. It seemed to me that his brother had undue influence over him to do this. In any case, what's been missing is really understanding and the government and lawyers and the media really, really, you know,

understanding how to tell and we do not live in a post-truth world. Truth still matters. Facts still matter. We are in the age of influence or undue influence, yes. But facts matter. And we need to get the fairness doctrine back into law that was taken out in the 80s, where media companies have an obligation to the public. good and can't incite violence, can't incite the big lie that the election was stolen,

that or Russia is a hoax, you're going to see more and more coming out about Russian influence with Donald Trump in the coming weeks and months. But I'm feeling more hopeful if we can get educated and like get people activists around this subject. And one of my biggest frustrations is when I hear from people who are like, oh, my best friend got into Q&ON. Oh, really? You know, when was the last time you talked with them? About two years ago. Like, for me, not engaging in an ethical, warm, loving, respectful relationship with someone in a cult is throwing them deeper down the rabbit hole. The more contact people have with normal. people who are not in the cult who say, hey, you are intelligent, obviously, are educated. If what you believe is true, then I need to believe it too. Let's make a deal. You share one thing that was important to you with me.

Let's watch it together and discuss it. Then it'll be my turn to share something with you. And we'll discuss it. In other words, create a frame of ego out. Just we need to figure out what's true. You bring up a really interesting point because, you know, as I'm raising a teen and a tween, this is one thing, you know, that I talk about with my older son. When does someone else's beliefs make you not want to talk to them?

When do you cut that person off? And I think so many people in the last five years have had these kinds of, these are deep dilemmas. I mean, I've had friends literally not able to speak to their parents. And the notion that, and again, I think this is the difference between kind of like, at least the old-fashioned kind of liberal that I was, you know, raised to be versus the way a lot of people I think are thinking. And I'm not saying it's better or worse, but I have noticed a lot of people really not knowing what to do if someone has beliefs that are, I mean, that seem to be like literally like, do you not believe in science? Do you not believe in truth? Or like, do you not understand how the things that that person said are inciting people to violence? The thing is, is that people experience like a radical personality change, their friend, their relative or something.

And often that convert tries to recruit you. So you get what Putin calls a fire hose of propaganda, like just. dozens of links, you know, and them saying, I've done the research, you should too, but the term do the research means believe it. Right. I've done the research on the things that I would like you to believe that I believe, and here you go, believe it. I mean, that's, I think a lot of us feel that. Right. So, but the point is, is I've developed, I mean, I've been working in this field for 45 years and really the most effective way to help someone out is first educate your build the team of other family members and friends who care and learn the principles of effective

interaction like asking a good question and then being quiet long enough and waiting for an answer and then following up with that because people are not used to talking that way with people they know so closely their whole life. They'll wait two to three seconds, no answer they'll go on to something else. But the goal of my whole approach is to empower the person to think for themselves and make their own decisions.

It is not to get them out of the group or the belief system or the religious cult or whatever. It's really based on you're a special person, you're intelligent, you're educated, you want to do the right thing. So do I. And let me share what I've learned about social psychology and hypnosis. And you decide if it fits. Can I also add something because I've been listening to your podcast? Folks on the spectrum, folks with dyslexia, ADHD, ADD, those types of things can be especially susceptible.

if they're not educated because they like the rules, they like the formulas, outline it all out. And so many of the cases I've done, including someone who was going to shoot up a lot of people, and fortunately we did a successful intervention, I said, I think he needs to be tested because I think he's on the spectrum. And he was. It was very high functioning. But folks on the spectrum love this chart and the bite model because then they can analyze for themselves anything. So just to be clear, what you're saying is that there are certain people whose makeups make them who they are and they're special and wonderful and it's not about better or worse. But when we talk about populations that might be more susceptible to these kinds of. of influences, especially of an authoritarian nature or, yeah, what you're saying is that for people

who already resonate towards wanting order, and especially if there's any insecurity about their sense of order or not fitting or being different, when you're presented with someone that says, I'm going to fix it, here are the things to do, here are the things to believe, and here's the structure you have to follow, that kind of rigidity in some cases can feel kind of comforting. Am I reading that right? Yes, but more importantly, I think, is the socialization of having an instant in-group where people accept you and you're special and you're one of us and you can recite that. Right. And you're building towards something bigger. I see. Exactly. Because a lot of these folks are lonely and isolated and they feel uncomfortable,

interacting. And then add the internet, right, where all the information's brought right to you. You don't need to go to a class. You don't need to meet people socially. Like, your social world is you and your computer. And so that gives you that sense of community. That's really interesting. I've never heard that. And I want to, because you're a neuroscientist, I want to cite a study that I read where there's a part of the brain. I don't know what it is that registers friendship. or affiliation. Let me finish out, and then you can correct me. If you do a video game with a total stranger for 15 minutes,

your brain starts acting like they're a friend. Like they're part of your thing. That's so fascinating in particular during this year of quarantine when so many of us are seeing our children claiming that they're fine. I'm fine. Just let me play my video. I'm with my friend. friends, it's social.

I don't mean to sound patronizing, although sometimes as a parent I do, but that notion of like, oh, there may be a very deep feeling inside that feels like connection because it is to them. QAnon is based on alternate reality gaming. Say more. So I did a TEDx called Dismantling Q&N with Dave Troy and a man who helped develop alternate reality. gaming 20 years ago, Jim Stewartson, also Desiree Kane, who was at Standing Rock, that's another part of the story. But Jim is the one, look at this TEDx, because Jim explains alternate reality gaming and how it makes, it's addictive, and people want to put the puzzles together.

What's alternate reality gaming? Am I the only one who doesn't know? So one version of it is dressing up thinking you're a night in the roundtable and that sort of thing. But there's many more sophisticated versions of it. But people become the game. Like they're doing it online, but then they're told to go out in the streets. Oh, I know people like this. Yes. So they become live.

Well, they're LARPERS, yeah. Which is not to say that all LARPERS are in. cult. We're going to get the mail from the LARPERS. I love a LARPER. And I'm against labeling people. Let's try to get out of the binaries of good and bad and all or nothing and try to get into the subtleties and complexity. That's hard for me, Steve. I'm a pretty black and white thinker. Yeah, but knowing your biases helps, I think. Thank you so much, Steve. Thanks for having me on. on Steve's optimism, because I like when people are optimistic.

But he described a few things that I don't know that I believe in. Tell me. Number one, he said, we have to be educated, which this country is not awesome at, nor are we as a global society. No, but he's right that we do need to be educated. I'm just saying to be signs of optimism that the general public will be educated, that we have to find truth, which there is no agreement on truth, and the radical divide in information is not at all coming closer to being not a divide.

But the fact is there is truth. There is. Like science matters. That's not up for debate. Science does matter, but there is difference in scientific approaches. And what scientists and what conclusions scientists believe. I actually heard someone say to me, not that long ago, this was a very successful, very wealthy business owner who is in the health space say that you can pretty much make science say whatever you want. That's why he's a wealthy business owner and not a scientist, because scientists don't say that.

We test hypotheses and we discard ones that are not good. And he is someone who pays scientists to make science say whatever he wants. But that's not changing science. That's manipulating science because you're a capitalist. That's not changing science. That's saying I can say whatever I want. That's not what Steve is saying. The other thing that I am slightly not optimistic about is that even when we do agree on any type of truth,

the steps that we then have to decide on what to do about that truth, we can't come to any sort of understanding about. No, you're right. You're right. And so when he seems optimistic, I think the last four years have showed us an increasing divide and polarization in our belief system. We can now be caught in echo chambers of information where we cannot see outside of what we believe and we are constantly reinforcing it by algorithms that feed us the next thing that supports the thing we just said.

And... Yes. He just held up a finger, for those of you not watching. I need a signpost that says I'm not done yet. We're also disconnecting ourselves from people who disagree with us because we're increasing our radical polarization. What I did agree with him is that we need to not isolate the people that disagree with us. We need to maintain those conversations, but we're really as in country as a species, extremely bad at that.

And it's getting worse. I don't think that, look, the fact that he chooses to be optimistic is also because he's a mental health worker. I think it's very helpful to be optimistic. I'm just, you know, sharing the things that I didn't directly say to him in this interview, which I'm sure he'll listen to this afterwards. Steve, I appreciated everything you said. I really, really do.

I've just seen that technology seems to be propelling us further apart. And I have long argued for algorithmic transparency where you can tune your algorithm, meaning that there should be a control panel in your YouTube, that you are not just fed things that are taking you down a rabbit hole. For example, I'll like do a deep dive on backpacks, and then I'll see all the advertisements skew to backpacks. Or I'll do supplements. And then it will go all supplements.

Or then I'll do something else, like a journal. And then you're all like, oh my God, I didn't know there were so many different types of journals out there. Deep dive on backpacks. Oh, yeah. When I was shopping for my latest backpack, which was maybe a year and a half ago, I saw backpacks like you wouldn't believe from companies you didn't even know existed. Kickstarter backpacks. Busy life? Busy life before you met me?

I needed a new backpack and it was very particular about what I wanted. The point here is that this algorithm and the control over algorithms and actually, really, that the control algorithms have over what we see should be controlled by the user. And the fact that we, for the most part, are subject to this and we have no idea how they're impacting us is a huge problem that not only impacts our mental health, but impacts the discourse in our society and potentially the, you know, the strength of the country. First of all, you're right. I mean, I do. I agree with you. I agree with you and you're right. Because those aren't always the same things. This is the perfect conversation. Let's end the

episode here. You're never going to hear her be so agreeable again. Also, shout out to how articulate you are. And I mean, I always knew you're articulate, but you don't often speak for that long because I usually interrupt you. There you go. You said it. I said it. But also, I think the place that you and I differ is that you really do believe that like insert more algorithms, have more transparency, blah, blah, blah.

You know what my solution is? Pull it the F back. That's unrealistic. No, the technology is not going back in the box. We are not deplatforming ourselves off of Instagram, off of Twitter. Here's where you and I differ. Anything can happen that you'd like to have happen. Period.

And if you want to live your life immersed in a technological world and you want to put up every border, every barrier, I want an algorithm. Fine, you go ahead and do that. While you're doing that, I'm going to clean my house. I'm going to donate money to charity. I'm going to go volunteer with people. I'm going to raise my kids. I'm going to feed them dinner.

And then I'm going to meditate and go to bed. And when you want to find the perfect backpack, the algorithm should be able to get it to you if you need to. There are things that technology is good for and the notion that we're going to all just stop using it. I agree that we need to have a healthy relationship with it. I agree we need to meditate, volunteer. Yes, clean your house. I feel like you're on the bite model. You're on the dark side.

I think we're done here. This is a very energetic. Closing to the podcast. I think it's like our first on-air fight. I don't think we're fighting. I think we're coming to an agreement to align on truth. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

It's my and biolix breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One, fix you. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.