Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Timber Hawkeye: Every Breakthrough Starts With a Breakdown

Episode Date: February 14, 2023

Timber Hawkeye (bestselling author of the new book The Opposite of Namaste) rejoins Mayim to discuss the real life friendship they’ve developed after his first appearance on the podcast, why mindfulness can feel intimidating, and the positives and negatives of labels. He details how pursuing a minimalist lifestyle has reduced his anxiety, the value of transparency and repentance, and the inner conflict that comes with being addicted to validation. Mayim and Timber considers the differences between envy and jealousy, the differences between observation and judgment, and how nonconformity can be an asset. Timber explains why he was initially averse to labels but now finds liberation in the term “neurodivergent,” and how he learned to use his anxious and obsessive compulsive tendencies to his benefit. He helps Mayim, Producer Valerie, and Engineer Scott hold a mirror up to their vices. Timber Hawkeye's New Book, The Opposite of Namaste:  https://amzn.to/3Ch1nnt BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Every breakthrough I've ever had started with a breakdown. And so, and people I know, too, when I witnessed them going through a really difficult time, in the back of my head, I'm not going to say it out loud, but in back of my head, I'm thinking, good, something really good is going to come of this. You know, Ticknan Han called it no mud, no lotus, meaning the lotus flower needs to go through the dirt and the mud and just all of that murkiness because that nourishes the beautiful flower that ends up on top. So who are we to say, don't have your breakdown? What I think you do offer is when you go through the breakdown, here are some tools to help you get through it.

And that's what I really love about it. So it's not that we do, you never have a breakdown. We hope to be there with you when you go through it and hold your hand. It's My Ambiolyc's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. Hi, I'm My Amiolic and welcome to My Breakdown.

This is the place where we break things down. so you don't have to. Today we're going to be welcoming a beloved guest of mine that we've had before, Timber Hawkeye. He's the best-selling author of Buddhist boot camp, faithfully religionless, and most recently the opposite of Namaste. I recommend you listen to the earlier episode that we did with him where he explains kind of his journey from, well, he was born in Israel, then he moved to San Francisco. He kind of lived in like the corporate world and had all the things that are supposed to make you happy and basically had a realization that there was more to life and essentially sold all of his things, moved to Hawaii, and then ended up studying Buddhism. He also works with the prison library

project for every book that you purchase. One is donated to the prison library project. He works, does a tremendous amount of work with veterans through the veteran health administration, the mental Health Association. And he has really touched on something. And his new book, The Opposite, which I highly recommend it, which we're going to talk about. He's really been able to hone in on very, very simple and powerful ideas, like what it looks like to actually be mindful, what it means to set priorities, what it means to be in acceptance. And he does this all through a secular mindfulness practice. And the notion is obviously we all want to be at peace, both within and around us. Really, really thrilled to get to talk to Timber again.

The opposite of Namaste is a beautiful book and a beautiful, really starting off place with how to approach a new way of seeing your life and being in acceptance of the way things are without constantly fighting, which is what I've done for most of my life and very grateful that Timber's been part of my journey to not have to keep fighting. So it's a pleasure to welcome. again, my friend Timber. Break it down. Timber is very nice to have you here, and it's very nice to have you here in person.

It's funny because we have, since you first came on the podcast when Jonathan was there, he's physically not here now, we've struck up a friendship, and it's rare to, it's rare to, as a grown-up, at least for me, you know, find a friend that you kind of wish you had had earlier in life, but it's funny to talk to you this way because we talk so many other ways. that it feels very formal. But for people who may have not heard our first episode, I don't think it's fair to ask you to sort of encapsulate your life in under three minutes, but just so people can know a little bit about you, you grew up in Israel initially, and then you moved to the United States, and you went on a path that many people go on. You

got a job and you had that sort of life. Can you sort of tell us what happened somewhere in there that led you on the journey that you are continuing to be on now? I realized that path wasn't going to lead me to where I wanted it to go. And I was just following everyone else's example. And so I thought, well, what if I stop doing what everyone else is doing? And I sold everything I ever owned, all the stuff I accumulated that I thought would lead to me being happy and moved to Hawaii with just a volleyball net and a backpack. And I just wanted a simple life. And I took it to the extreme where a simple life somehow turned into living in a monastery.

a Buddhist monastery because nothing is simpler than that. And I was sending letters to my friends every month to let them know what's going on with me. And the letters transitioned from me just telling them about my volleyball games to telling them about everything I was studying with the llama at the temple. And then I moved into a Zen monastery that was off the grid. And so the emails stopped. And that's when my friend said, you need to get out of the monastery because you took a vow to be of service to others. and how are you being of service to anyone if you're locked talked away in the mountains somewhere. So I left the monastery but kept the vows and she urged me to publish all the letters that I had sent to her over the course of eight years.

And that somehow became the first book, which paved the rest of the way. Is that under three minutes? Yeah, that was pretty good. So you do now live in the States. You live a beautiful and simple life. I think you've worn just about the same thing every time I've seen you. Not the exact same thing, but this is one of my, I think one of the most interesting things that people might want to know about you.

Tell us about your clothing and your decisions. Well, not just regarding clothing, but the way you present yourself. So at the monastery, we all, of course, had the same haircut. We all wore robes, and it was very much in line with the belief and the value that we are all the same. When you're walking up the path to the meditation hall, you don't know who it is in front of of you because it could be anyone. We all look exactly the same. And when I left the monastery, but I was still walking around town wearing the robes, the robes communicated the exact opposite. Instead of saying, I'm like everyone else, it said, look at me, I'm different. And it brought a lot of

unwanted attention. And so I thought, well, how can I just blend in? And just because I, I mean, the whole point of the messages, I'm like everybody else. And but without a walk-in closet full of clothes. And I thought, you know, just jeans and a t-shirt would have just been sufficient. And I've worn pretty much, yeah, I've got the gray T-shirt. I have five of them. And for more than a decade, I've said this is it. And it's comfortable. And how many do you own?

I have five shirts and two pairs of pants. And yeah, it's before we had a word for minimalism. It was just a way to reduce anxiety, to reduce. decision fatigue to reduce so many of the decisions that we are bombarded by on a daily basis, it's one less thing for me to worry about. My hair, my clothes, you know, is just simple. I didn't do this the first time that we had you on the podcast because I was just really getting to know you. My mother actually discovered you and told me about you and had been raving about you. And then I think separately Jonathan had discovered you and that's sort of how we connected.

But, you know, as I've gotten to know you, I've been able to, I think, learn things about you that have helped me hear more of your message. And what I mean is, I think, you know, even me, someone who considers myself, like, open-minded and interested in the things that, you know, that you revolve in. Mindfulness, you know, I had a friend who lived at Tasahara and at the Zen Buddha Center in San Francisco. go. So, you know, I've, I've experienced and, you know, been around some things like this, but I do want to say that there's this notion of like, there's got to be a catch somewhere. Like, you must be, meaning the cynic that many of us are raised with is like, well, he must be a billionaire and he's just not telling us. Like, you know, we've seen enough documentaries of great, you know, leaders, healers, teachers. And I know you don't call yourself that.

But we've all seen enough to say like, oh, people hide behind. I'm just, you know, I care for you deeply. Some people would hide behind this to be like, I smuggle children. Like I participate in human trafficking or I eat pork when no one's looking, even though I claim to be a vegan. That's all I hear. No, it is. But I think a lot of people have resistance. You know, even though you are very integrated in the world, can you speak a bit to that?

I agree 100% because, and that's why, in fact, the concept of transparency has always been really important to me. In the very first book, when Harper Collins published it, there's a chapter in it called repentance in which I list all these horrible, terrible things that I've done in my life. And I wish I hadn't, but I didn't know better at the time. And that doesn't mean that they didn't occur. And so when they sent me the manuscript back. And you don't mean bad things like I said someone was nice when they weren't. You mean like, think, yes. No, I've done some things that I needed to repent for.

Got it. And Harper Collins took that chapter out. And they sent me the manuscript and I said, where is it? And it goes, well, we don't, we think it paints you in a bad light. And I had them put it back in because it paints me in an honest light. And it's also why I tore and speak publicly so much because I think it is important, much to your point, that people see it's not just talk. Like, I didn't discover Buddhism or mindfulness and change my life to match it. I was already living like this and someone pointed out to me, dude, you're like a Buddhist monk.

And I'm like, whoa, what does that mean? So then that just took like, oh, what I'm doing isn't so unique to me. It's an answer to many people's question and this is how I choose to answer it. But yes, it's very important for me to have public talks regularly and meet with people. So they can see embodied, this is, it's doable. And yeah, I'm not hiding behind anything when I moved to to whole. Hawaii, I didn't have any money saved up, but I didn't owe anyone any money either. I think that was a really big transition point is I had paid off my debt. And I thought, do I need, what I'm so used to sending, you know, the credit card company, a thousand dollars every month to pay off the debt? And then one month I was like, this is the last time I'm sending them a payment. What am I going to do with that extra thousand next month? And luckily, instead of thinking about all the cars I wanted to buy, I thought, well, I don't have to make that extra thousand. So it became a game of, Well, instead of how much can I make, it became how little can I make?

Right. And it turns out working in Hawaii 12 hours a week was plenty, not because I have so much saved up, but because I don't have any expenses. You know, when you cut your own hair, I just did the math with a buddy of mine the other day because he was complaining about his barber and he was late and all this stuff and like, all these things I don't need to worry about and hair products and all. So I've been shaving my head for, gosh, 30 years now. And we did the math.

if he was paying $40,000 or not. It was like $15,000 that I had saved just by shaving my head. I'm not saying everyone needs to shave their head. You had a beautiful head of hair. I've seen the photos. Yes, you did. You would still have a beautiful head of hair. But I would need products and haircuts and just time and to look in the mirror,

which is just, I don't know, two minutes of my day that I got back. What did you do with all that time in Hawaii? So I started studying with a Tibetan Lama who escaped to Tibet with the Dalai Lama, a Lama Rhinjan. He's passed away since. And he was really instrumental in pointing me in the right direction because I was so drawn to Buddhism when I realized it was so aligned with what I already believed. But I didn't know there's 800 different schools of Buddhism. And so I just went to a Tibetan Lama because he was, he looked so much like the Dalai Lama. I was like, oh, this is Buddhism.

And luckily, he laughed and said, you know, this is Tibetan Buddhism. This is their way. It's very complex. It's very complicated. And I said, well, I'm looking to simplify my life. This is really complex. And he laughed, just like you did. And he said, if you're looking for a simple version of this, try Zen.

And that's what I did. And even Zen became to some degree more complicated than I care for because it's got a hierarchy that does not resonate with me at all. And so that's why the second book was called Faithfully Religionless, because I have a tremendous amount of faith, but it's not ascribed to any religion or sect or anything of that sort. My Ambialx Breakdown is supported by Superpower. We all know the feeling of leaving a doctor's office

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Make sure to mention my ambiolics breakdown to help support the show. Another thing that I sort of wanted you to speak to, And, you know, I have had the pleasure of seeing you speak in person. And it's very different from what I thought it would be. You know, I pictured you'd be like standing on a bema is what we call it in synagogue, dais, you know, like standing somewhere. Behind a podium. By the podium.

Right. Or like, here's what I'm going to talk about. And what it is is, and I'm assuming it's this way when you speak lots of places. It's always a circle discussion. You sit in a circle and you sit with your legs, folded like you do. What you do, and you also have emails, one email a month you can get from timber, you take a topic. And that's also ties into the opposite of Namaste, because it is really a book of topics. And they're kind of bites. I don't want to speak for you, but it seems that it's as

much about the receiving as it is about the giving. People are participating on an equal level, meaning. A hundred percent. Yeah, like everybody, I mean, it's a discussion. It's not a talk. I don't, I don't lecture. Right. There's not. a single should statement in any of my books or emails. What we do when we meet in person is we take a concept of topic and we unpack it together. And everyone walks away with something, including me, you know, and it provides insight. And it would be really short-sided to me to think that the way I look at it is the only way to look at it. There's so many angles. And I wouldn't get to see them had I not invited others to participate in it. Yeah.

A lot of people are intimidated, not just by you, but by people who have had the kind of experiences you have. For me, part of it, I'm just going to own it, is envy, you know, the notion of like selling everything, you know, getting to go away, have time, like have that experience. There are parts of me that that really want that experience and also what comes with it, you know, the time, the space, you know, you also, you are a lot of fun, meaning you also have a lot more time to do fun things, to hike. You love ping pong. Volleyball is a deep, deep passion of yours. It is a very deep passion of yours. But I think part of the trepidation that a lot of people have about, quote, people like you, right, is I know that you don't think you're perfect. But I think a lot of people assume that people who have gone on this kind of journey, exploration, commitment vows, you know, you consistently have lived, you know, by your word, not perfectly.

But I think that a lot of people might as, oh, he thinks he's so, right? So I know that you believe in a constant sort of smoothing of the edges. But can you, I don't mean to say, like, tell us all the horrible things about you. But you're very human. Absolutely. And I try to be, like I said, as transparent as possible about my own challenges because I realize they're not my own. We're all battling very similar demons.

And you're absolutely right that it does ignite in some people. I like Neil Donald Walsh's distinction between envy and jealousy, where envy is actually very healthy. Yes. That's why I use that word. Yeah. You know, if a little, you know, the little brother witnesses his sister reach up to the doorknob. And he's like, oh, I envy that she can reach that. I want that for me.

I don't wish any ill will on her. That's very healthy. Right. Whereas jealousy is I don't want her to have what you. she has because I can't have it or if I can't have it. Correct. I don't want her to have it either. So envy is very healthy, but it is, you hit the nail in the head with intimidating

because that's been a recurring unfortunate theme in my life where it's not because I'm perfect or pretend to be. It's because I have so much conviction that is, I don't want to say a foreign concept to many, but my best friend said, Timber, you know, you, you like mindfulness. like the next person, but you want to practice mindfulness for about 23 hours out of the day and then maybe do something mindless for an hour. And most people want to do something mindful for about an hour and then mindlessly live the rest of the day.

And that in itself is intimidating because I put thought into everything I think, say, do, everything I eat, everything I drink, everywhere I go, everywhere, how I address an audience. Everything is well thought out with the intention of meeting people at eye level. And I don't know why it's intimidating. My intention is for it to be inviting, but I know intention and impact don't always align. So my intention doesn't always resonate with someone when they read the book. I mean, my favorite book review was from someone who said, I love this book. I threw it across the room a dozen times.

And that's exactly the response is that I want this. Like you said, I envy. But I don't want to do the work that's involved. in getting it. So if you don't do the work, you don't reap the reward. Are you judgmental? So when I ship books, they always go with a sticker on the back and it's non-judgment days here.

And we may have talked about this last time where philosophers and psychologists and poets for eons have tried to define what love is. And I truly believe the Dalai Lama hit the nail in the head when he's. said love is the absence of judgment. And so when I notice judgment arise, to me is just an indicator. You're not loving. And if your commitment is to love, then notice that. And it's not about getting to a place where it never comes up. All of it always comes up. Anger, jealousy, all of it comes up. But mindfulness makes you aware of it, not identify with it, and then say, what else can I choose right now? So that's the invitation.

So I don't judge. I observe. I was going to say, you haven't yet specifically answered. So no. So I think it's in part of nonviolent communication that distinguished between judgment and observation. Right. And so I observe. I discern, but I don't judge.

And I think there is a distinction. Is that fair to say? Yes, it's totally fair. I'm laughing because I don't know if you will let me do this experiment, but I think there's value in it. Sometimes I drink soda. Oh, oh. We had this conversation and we said we will continue it and I thought it would be in private. But here we are.

No, I didn't. I actually didn't think of it until now. Oh, boy. No, but what I think is important is I know, for example, I know that. And I did go, I went quite some time without drinking soda this summer. It was really pretty spectacular. I mean, I was very. I was just cracking me out.

I was impressed with myself. I know where it's going. Well, no, but I think this is not for, first of all, I hope you trust me enough to know. This is not me trying to make you look bad for thinking I shouldn't drink soda. No, no. I don't think you shouldn't. No. Well, okay, you're right.

Okay, sorry. I started again. This is not me trying to make you look bad for acknowledging judgment about me having soda. But I think it's very trite to say, like, people don't have to agree on everything. But what I've realized is you have to encounter people all the time. who do things that are, you know, inconsistent with, let's say, how you might want to do something. But if I say to you, I want to be a healthy person, it's very clear to you. And you're very loving about it.

I mean, you are. But you do have an intellectual approach to say, if these are the things. Yeah. So I'm not even, you don't even have to address. No, it's, you said it's not about them living in on with my. values and in what I believe it's when they say one thing and do another. I'm like, wait. It's not that I don't like it.

It's this awareness and my invitation to hold up a mirror and go, look what you're doing. Because, again, Gandhi said that happiness is when what you think say and do are all in harmony. And so when we are suffering, when we are in anguish, it's because we created disharmoning within us by saying one thing and doing another. Right. So that's when I, my issue was, hey, you wanted to bring it up. Right. No, I did.

Is someone I respect so much as you, who is so smart. And allowing room to go, okay, you know this is, you list all the reasons why you don't. You've decided not to drink it. Right, right. And yet you do. Right. My mind goes, help me connect those dots. Right.

Right. Not because I'm judging you. You shouldn't do that, but because according to what you told me, this is not in line with who you are. Right. So when you're out of alignment, I go, well, what can we do to bring you back into harmony? Right. Because you're creating dis-ease within you. Right.

So that's the part where I get confused, not judgmental. I was watching an interview with Bill Gates, who is arguably whether you agree with his point of views or not, or he's a smart guy. Very smart. You know, for if nothing else. Very smart. And yet he drinks like six, seven Diet Coke's a day. And I'm like, how is the like smartest genius in the world? Like, no doing this.

It just, if I had one question for him, that would be it. How do you reconcile what you know with what you do? Have you tweeted at him and asked? I don't know. Okay. I wouldn't even know how. So just so I don't feel alone. And you're not.

No, no. Well, this is Scott. Yeah. Scott, do you have something that like, you know you don't want to do but you do? Right. A vice of mine is that I play too much video games. Oh. According to you?

Yes. It's like a habit that I picked up, I think, during the. pandemic and that it's like been hard to shake. I would rather be working on creative projects or something like that. I recognize that it's kind of a waste of time, but it's very stimulating. Huh. Okay. And there's awareness there. Well, yeah. And here's my question. And I think a lot of people have a lot of these things. You're up next Valerie, so start thinking of your thing. You know that there are things you'd rather be doing. But I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, we do something until we don't get benefit from it, right? Like, it's hard not to be like, I'm going to have a

soda when it occurs to me once in a while. But like I would imagine if you going cold turkey of something like that, you got to fill it with something. And so in the absence of finding other things to fill that energy with, we return to the thing. And that's the invitation is, you know, my biggest challenge with Buddhism is a lot of it is about letting go. And that's what I think you mentioned with cold turkey. And so my invitation is instead of the white knuckling, it's the loosening of the grip, which I think is what you're talking about every once in a while. to do that. I guess in my mind, I call it the, you know, we call it the train of thought. And I think the train of thought for many of us stays in what I call me city. It's everything that's affecting me.

Like, I'm bored. I want to go to a movie. I'm going to look for a movie that's playing the theater nearest to me. What time does it start? What time does it end? Will I get enough sleep if I go tonight and still get to work tomorrow? And that thought process on the train of thought stays in me city and it doesn't leave. And I say to stay on that train of thought a little longer and go if you're bored and you want to go to a movie, all fair, that's fine, and then decide, okay, well, what happens if I don't support the local mom-and-pop shop movie theater that's a little farther from me? What happens if I support the Cineplex? Does that take business away from that? What happens if I go to a violent movie while I simultaneously say I think there's too much violence

in the world, but here I am condoning more movies. movie makers to make more movies about violence. You know, so it's like, stay on that train of thought beyond me city and think, how are my decisions affecting the world at large? And that happens at a micro level. That's what I'm saying. So when you choose to drink at lunch. Right. There it is.

There it is. Like, I can choose anything. And it's like, that's why I say stay on that train of thought beyond like, okay, well, it's, it's, you know, what you eat, what you drink, what industry you're supporting, what industry could you supporting otherwise, et cetera. Valerie, what's your thing? Okay, at the risk of sounding high and mighty, my thing is work. I recently went from two jobs down to this one job on the podcast.

It doesn't always feel like work, so I have guilt around that anyway. But now I'm struggling to fill my time with fun things. I'm used to just working and then going to the next job. And at 10 p.m., I'm sitting around going, I could watch another episode of the show or I could just get something done to take it off my plate for tomorrow. That's interesting. Yeah.

Everyone's got there something. It's kind of the opposite of namaste. Well, the opposite of namaste was really just an invitation. It's really easy to say namaste to someone when they are kind and gentle and patient and loving and holy and generous. And namaste, just for people who may not have their yoga teacher explain it because we do that in the life. There's many definitions.

One of them is just the divinity in me acknowledges the divinity in. in you, the holy in me, the God in me, sees it in you and recognizes it and says, I see you, I acknowledge you. And that's easy to do when the divinity in us sees it in others. But what happens when you're sitting in front of someone who is rude and mean and just a jerk? You know, it's really difficult to see. I see the divine in you.

And so I think we need a word for those instances that's like the opposite of Namaste of like the ego in me sees the ego in you. I'm like the jerk in me sees the jerk. I know why you do what you do. I was going to say it's even the other way around. Like I'm identifying that you're doing something that I hate, resent, right, and guess what? I've also done it. Spot it.

You got it. Exactly. Yeah. So the ego and me sees, I know why you do what you do because I've done it. I've been a jerk. I've been impatient. And that immediately eliminates judgment. Going back to your question from before, do you say judgment would by definition, I think,

implies that one is superior to the other. So this opposite of amaste is not about actually coming up with a word to say to someone out loud. It's internally for us to go, I'm feeling superior. And in order for that to happen, I need to make someone else inferior. You know, the 12-step world revolves around fear and resentment, you know, as two of sort of the culprits of, you know, a tremendous amount of pain and suffering. But ego is right up there. I've been aware of this recently, and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about ego. Because, you know, we think of it sort of like Freud, obviously coined a tremendous amount surrounding ego and id and super ego.

But I've actually been noticing, you know, a lot of places where my ego is, it's wanting love. You know, it's wanting acknowledgement in ways that I'm now realizing, oh, that's just ego, you know. Because the God within doesn't need acknowledgement. It doesn't need love. It doesn't mean. Right. Speak a little bit about ego because a lot of people think of like ego. someone who's egotistical, right? And they're like, I'm so great and blah, blah, blah. But I'm

talking about the ego that's like, if I do a kind deed, what if no one knows about it, right? And this is, there's a, you know, I remember learning this in Hebrew school. There's a, it's called Jacob's Ladder. It's like a hierarchy of Tadaka, of giving. And the highest level is not knowing who you're giving to and them not knowing where it came from. And I realized, I mean, first of all, I just need to shut up a lot, but I realized a lot of things, a lot of times, it's that it's the child in me that wants to be told, like, you did good. You know, you're a good person. And it's like at what point and being a validation addict is something that people do talk about in certain rooms. You know, I'm 46 years old. Like, at a certain point, I want to believe I'm just okay because I'm okay.

You know, I don't need anyone. And I also, like, you see, my life is like millions and millions of people at any point could hear something that I would like them to know about, right? And I feel a combination of, you know, joy and dread when I share good works or Tudaka or charity that I participate in because I don't want the pat on the head for that. I want you to then see that you can do that in your life. You know what I mean? Like, this exists. But it's something that I've been. thinking about a lot and I wonder if you can talk a little bit about ego.

Well, I mean, thank you for that leading because there's so much there to unpack from, you know, what does generosity look like and are we doing it for the right reasons, so to speak? Because if you're doing it for validation, you're giving with... It's conditional. It's conditional. There's an attachment. Even if all you want to thank you, like... But it could be a combination.

It's... Meaning that's not the motivation for why people talk. necessarily do nice things. No, but if you get upset, if you don't get a thank you, or if it's not reciprocated or acknowledged, even, then. I don't know that I get upset, but I really, it feels good when I get that, you know, the pat on the head. I mean, it's going to turn into a therapy session, but I think what I already is,

it already is. What I realized when I was trying to get the approval and validation from my parents and then realizing that's something I will never receive from my mother, that was actually very liberating because then I said, well, then I can stop trying. And that was so freeing because like, why am I looking to get approval from a woman who's never approved of anything anyone's ever done? So it was like, I'm trying to cut water. Why don't I just stop? And it was so freeing because then I could do what I do because it feels right for me. I don't need anyone to even know what I'm doing it. and I've incorporated into how I work when what I do,

like whenever somebody buys a book from me, another one is donated to the prison library project. But I'm not saying that because look at me what I'm doing. I'm telling people, you just did that by doing this. And it's very empowering for people. And I talk about it in the book when we break down generosity, how when I first wanted to get the books into prisons, it was really overwhelming because I got an invoice for what the paperback would cost to print.

and I posted it online and everyone was just as overwhelmed by the thousands of dollars it would have cost. And no one gave anything. It was just like we had this fundraising campaign and everyone saw the invoice and said, well, I can't pay that. So no one did. But then I changed tact and I removed the invoice. And I just said, just donate $1. That's it.

I said, no, just one. And in less than 24 hours, we raised more than $20,000. But to me, that's powerful, not because we reached. our goal, but because instead of empowering 20 people to donate $1,000, we empower 20,000 people to make a difference. So that's the idea. And it's not that they can go and brag to someone, I've donated a dollar. It's really about feeling empowered, like, I can make a difference. And, you know, that old saying that we were talking about this right before, because I was just recently camping with a lot of mosquitoes, but the old saying of if you think you're too small to

make a difference, try spending the night with a mosquito. And it makes a huge difference. So, but the ego, I don't know if I, I get to even touch on the ego. So there's the God within and there's the ego within. And the way I distinguish is like the God within doesn't need anyone to agree with it. It doesn't need validation. It doesn't need recognition. It doesn't need a proof. It's good.

It's like, it just sits there quietly going, yeah, we're good. The ego is, I compare him to donkey from Shrek. Whenever I think of my ego, because it's not about destroying the ego. It's not about killing the ego. In fact, any attempt to do away with it just gives it more attention and the ego just loves that. It's also giving a judgment. Yeah. All of that.

So I'm just like, it's there. And that's why, in fact, the cover of my first book is half of me is in the dark and half of me is in the light. And it's not about destroying one with the other. It's about making peace with both of them. And so every morning I say good morning to each. And the ego within, again, the donkey is just like, watch me, watch me, watch me. And it just wants attention. The God within does not need any of that.

And also, speaking of God. God, you're not talking about old man in the sky or Jesus per se or you're talking about something more organic. Sure. It's, you know, if you're not comfortable with the word God, just put an extra O in there. It's the good within, you know, and it's, yeah, it's not. Here's one way to say it. I posted a picture online one time where I was holding up a big sign.

It says, my God loves everybody. and people are like, what do you mean your God? And I said, well, does your God love everybody? And they go, no. I'm like, then there's clearly more than one because mine does. And it was just a really simple way to go, well, why? And for them to then question, why doesn't my God love everyone? The first time I thought about God that way, I was actually, I was in Israel.

And the soundtrack, the first time I went to Israel, I was 16, Rattle and Hum was my soundtrack. He says the God I believe in isn't short on cash. And I remember that was like the first time that I was like, that's the perfect way to sum up a lot of the judgment, you know, that I, well, a lot of the, a lot of the problems I have, you know, with organized religion. It reminded me of that. Like, the God I believe in loves everyone, right? I do want to mention more specifically the book before we go on to talk about other things. Your table of contents is called food for thought.

I'm curious how you think of these chapters. What I like to do is offer just enough information for someone to do the rest of the thinking. I don't want to do the thinking for you. And so I'm just planting the seed and then every person gets to water it and cultivate it and see how it resonates with them rather than me spelling it all out. I find when I read books that, you know, I want some of the thinking left for me to do rather than the author telling me, you know, while holding my hand through the whole thing. That makes total sense. There's how many chapters are there? 84. 84. Special number? No. It was with an editor for so long.

And when I got it back, it needed so much more work. Some of them I just got so frustrated with, I'm like, guess that one's not making it in. But, you know, every chapter is a collection. It's from an episode from the Buddhist Boot Camp podcast. And that's why, and every episode is less than 10 minutes long, which is why every chapter is only a couple of pages. Yeah, and I think that's the special thing about this book. Obviously, all your books are very special. But this one's really special because you can flip to any page and kind of get a little inspiration.

And yeah, it is. It's food for thought. one of the early chapters, which is not why we're talking about it, but one of the early chapters talks about normalcy. And it's something that Jonathan and I do talk about here. And also as a parent, it's something that, you know, that's one of the first things that in particular this culture teaches you to be aware of. Is your child normal, right? Are they developing along normal trajectories? You know, is this normal? Is that normal? And one of the hard things in being a person, who has never identified as normal myself, was when you become a parent, you then have all of your baggage, all of your fears, all of your expectations about your lack of normalness.

And in some ways, you want your kids to obviously be their own people and, like, that's the things you're supposed to do. But also, there's a certain comfort in knowing that your kids are also different. Because the fact is, like, you know, as my ex-husband and I talk about, like, quirky people make quirky people.

You know, like, I'm not surprised. that my kids, you know, are experiencing that. But, you know, I don't want them to suffer the way that I did from feeling left out, separate, different, wrong. And you, this is something we've talked about and that you've also spoken about on your podcast. And it does come up in the book. And it's about neurodivergence. And this is a term that a lot of people have seized upon and embraced. I'll let you talk about why you like that word. and what it sort of signifies for you and your experience? Well, for many years, I had a lot of resistance to any sort of label.

Because, like you said, wrong, bad, different, quirky. And they all imply something that is less than desirable. And I understand with parents wanting to make sure that their child is healthy. And so if, like, I didn't start speaking until I was older than three years old. And so as a parent, we tend to think, is this normal? but in a sense of, is there something wrong with my child? Which is really, is there something wrong with me? And I have such a resistance to that, to the word wrong and bad.

Whereas neurodivergent doesn't have any negative implication at all. It's a label that is actually very liberating because it just says, I still function. There's nothing wrong with me. Nothing needs to be fixed. it's not typical, but typical doesn't necessarily mean best. It's if there's a path up the mountain and there's one that most people walk up on, that doesn't mean that the other path is wrong or less desirable. It's just another path up the mountain.

And so that feels very liberating to me because for so long, all those labels that were thrust on me of, you know, you're so weird, you're so wrong. Was it weirdo? You said that was your nickname. And it leaves a mark because you're then for the rest of your life trying to figure out how can I blend in. And it's very liberating to realize I don't have to, especially not for so that neurotypicals are more comfortable. I'm not responsible for you being comfortable. And that's very freeing because then I can just be me.

How are you neurodivergent? I mean, that's where I felt the immediate connection with you we had from the very beginning is this cerebral. Am I neurodivergent? Well, only. This is the episode where? I didn't mean that. I meant that I have a difficult time, as you said, in the very beginning of the show, like meeting people. Meeting people is easy.

Making friends is really difficult. And to immediately have a connection that goes beyond. our connection with Hebrew and Judaism and Israel and all of that. It was really this ability to think about things intellectually and break them down, so to speak, so we can examine them without judgment, without even perhaps even emotion, at least on my part. And I feel there are certain topics still that when I want to unpack them with someone who can help me look at it without any emotion attached to it, you're the person I would call. I wish Jonathan was here to hear that.

I'm thinking about what I was like, you know, as a kid. And, you know, I'd say I blended in, I think, fine to some extent. You know, I was small and I was cute. You know, everybody was like, well, she's been cute. I was very tiny. I was strangely small. And now I'm average. And, you know, at a certain point, I realized I do.

I think about things differently. I feel things differently. A lot of what I experienced as a child, you know, got shoved deep down and away, you know, to be taken out later in your worst year. years, your teenage years, when everything sort of comes up. And that's sort of when I first, you know, identified as so different. And a lot of it, and it wasn't because I was acting, because you were not an actor on television. You know, I didn't always like the things other kids liked. I wasn't interested in socializing the way other kids socialized. I didn't like gossip.

I didn't like, I mean, I, you know, boys were really not very friendly. Girls also weren't, you know, just, and that was just my experience. But, you know, I, I very early on took on hobbies and things that a lot of young people didn't have. And so I became a person who like, yeah, I like to read things that I started reading, you know, French existential novels. And like that was really interesting to me. And like, that may sound pretentious, but it was deeply impactful for me to read Camus. And for me to, you know, read, you know, to read Sartra and say like, oh, someone's expressing something that I'm feeling. And I did have a couple friends.

one of them was the friend of mine who ended up moving to Tasahara and living in the Zen Center in San Francisco. But there weren't a lot of people who liked to kind of resonate. You know, and I'd go to parties and people would be like smoking pot and I'd be like, ew, you just look like, I don't know, it just looks like you're having a kind of fun that is not mine to have. And, you know, I was called a prude and I was called uptight and I was, you know, anti-social. My parents, you know, I was contrary. But now that I'm an adult, you know, I don't like going out. I don't like partying. I'm really curious.

I want to contrast this before we. I don't want to gloss over it. How do you connect that to what we talked about earlier, needing validation and recognition from others? Because if that was the case then, then you would have just done the pot and joined and did the party to anything because you would have wanted to be liked by everyone. I think that, I mean, look, this is probably more of a question from my therapist. I think that there's a, I have a deep organizing principle that I can't even compete, you know?

And I think part of it was I looked very different from a lot of kids. And I looked, you know, growing up, you know, I was born in 75. And like, I didn't see anyone on television that looked like me at all. You know, when I told my parents like, I think I should be an actor because, oh, so and so. I mean, I'm surprised they didn't say, like, do you not see what's on television? And it's true. You know, commercials wanted blonde-haired, blue-eyed, small-featured children. So I think I had this deep sense.

And for me, I do think a lot of it was. You know, when I was like, I was flat-chested. I was really skinny. Like, I never, you know, I just like, there was a deep sense of not even wanting to compete, but also a deep longing to belong. But I just sort of like internalized it. It just became like, I'm alone and sad and like, oh, this is depression. Like, oh, this continues.

And then you're in like a. chemical loop, you know, like then you're just, you know, psychiatrist to psychiatrist and like this pill, that pill. Oh, one's not working. Let's try four at the same time. And like different dose, you know, like then you're on that journey. And I was really on that journey, honestly, until, you know, until I got pregnant, which is a whole other than shift because then your body's not yours. Your life is not yours. And you see what my life is like. You know, I'm bound to these, gratefully bound to these other humans. But in the middle of it is also the validation. that is a large structure of my life, but not my motivation, you know, it's so accidental.

That was a long soliloquy. But in terms of sort of this neurodivergent concept, you know, I like this notion of not feeling self-judgment and negativity surrounding things. Oh, yeah. All of that was removed with one sweep. It was just, oh, I'm almost to see it as a gift, you know, because I recognize that. that it's kind of like when I had almost, you know, anxious and obsessive-compulsive tendencies where I remember in therapy figuring out, oh, I can use it to my benefit rather than my detriment so that the obsessive-compulsive doesn't keep me from going to bed at night if there's dishes

in the sink, but it makes me a really great employee because I've paid so much attention to detail where others wouldn't. So it's really figuring out, I've got this, and it's not something that can be healed, but we can learn coping mechanisms. And that's why I love what you do, because this is an opportunity to help everyone's kind of break down. Like, it's not like you're going to get better, but you're going to get better at coping with it. And that's, what a great gift. I don't know. Well, and one of the things that, you know, I'm often asked all sorts of, you know, silly questions, serious questions. You know, I have to do a lot of interviews just in my life. And a lot of people ask, what would you tell your younger self? And a lot of times when I,

you know, hear interviews with, you know, well-meaning and often very intelligent and worldly celebrities. They're like, it'll get better. You know, like, just keep. And that's actually not what I would tell my younger self. What I would tell my younger self is it doesn't really get better. The world is still full of suffering and sadness and pain, but your ability to cope with it will shift as you gain more tools. Yeah. It's similar to the advice on grief is that the pain, if it's a weight, it doesn't get lighter. Right. It just gets stronger and are able to carry it.

Oh, interesting. I hadn't heard that. And so there's, and that's still growth. It just doesn't look the way, you know, because we're so programmed to do away with that which we don't like as opposed to the Buddhist approach and maybe therapy even is don't learn to live with it. It's just there. Because otherwise, you're spending so much of a time trying to get rid of the very thing.

It's just, it's overwork. your life rather than just, yeah, it's there. Well, and that's also, you know, one of the basic instructions when you're first trying to meditate. Do not imagine that you will not have any thoughts that are not consistent with the meditation at hand or the breathing. The idea is, you know, if you're laying on a riverbed and things are going over you, right? Like, that's how it was described to me. If you're laying in a stream and you're, you know, you are one with the rocks, you are those rocks. And the water will just keep moving.

You know, it doesn't need to be stopped. It doesn't need to be, you know, it's just. you let it pass. In terms of the labels around it because, you know, a lot of people are being identified late in life as ADHD or people who had never realized that that was often the root of a lot of their challenges. Many people are, I think, getting some comfort from the label and many people are turning to medication, which is a separate conversation. But I'm also hearing more and more people saying, I never knew I was on the autistic. spectrum. And like getting to be like a full on grown up. And it's funny because the point of a

spectrum is it's a spectrum. And that means both extremes will exist. But it's kind of neat having teenage kids who are tapped into a whole different aspect of culture through what they hear. And, you know, I have more language nowadays for us to have a better understanding. When we were growing up, there was no, it was either you were like everyone else or you were a freak of nature. And now it's a spectrum and we have words and we understand. And I think it's really beautiful because then we can identify it and actually help strengthen the areas where you're really good at like paying attention to something. You know, that I went back to Israel and I saw the kids that I grew up with when I was really young. And I said, Timur, you were talking about meditation before you knew what meditation was.

But we didn't have words for it. We didn't have the tools. And it wasn't something my parents could have even cultivated because we didn't have the vocation. Because we didn't have the vocabulary. Like you said, nowadays, there's so much around not just mental health and the spectrum, but the spectrum of gender identity, sexual identity. It's so wide. And that's really beautiful because I am seeing kids now.

And, you know, I'm speaking in high schools. I'm speaking at churches. And they have so much better understanding of the world, which helps them better understand themselves. They have a lot more exposure to so many paths up the mountain where we were raised with, this is how you always done it. This is how everyone before you has done it. And this is the path you're going to climb. And if you didn't, you were a black sheep.

You were excommunicated. You were disowned. And now it's like he's just doing his own thing. Well, and I guess that's sort of, it's something that concerns me because I think a lot of the work world, the corporate world, is still in many ways on that older tract of thinking. And it's funny because, you know, when I think about it in terms of what I want to, let's say, you know, teach my kids about hireability, you know, whatever it is,

you know, there still is a notion of like, how do we present ourselves? It matters, right? If you're going in for a job interview. I have a whole story about that. Can I share that with you? Yeah, for sure. Because I. Because it's the notion of conforming, right? You have to wear shoes to a work interview, probably. And I didn't. Right. So that's why I want, I didn't know this is where they go. to have some conversation would go. But I had left the corporate world. I did away with all of that. I moved into the monastery.

My job there was in the kitchen. So when I left the monastery, I thought, okay, I'm going to look for a job working at a kitchen somewhere, like Whole Foods. I'm like, all right, I'll work at the kitchen, whole foods. And I met with the manager of the kitchen. And I said, I'm used to working in a kitchen with 22 other people. It was a silent kitchen. We would prepare six meals a day in complete silence.

And she goes, oh, that's not what our kitchen's like. we've got heavy metal going through the speakers and people cussing left and right. That's not a good environment for you. So she's like, why don't we have you making burritos? It's just like, that works for you. But I was walking home one day because I was working there and I would walk home and I said, well, what do you really want to do? And I pictured a job where this is long before the books.

This is long before anything. And I thought, you know, I want to get, I want to write. And it's like, where can I get a job where they pay me to write? And so I get home and I, pull up Craigslist and I look up and there's a list in its alphabetical order under jobs, accounting, administration. And at the very bottom, under W, it's writing. And I click on writing.

And the very top job opening was Buddhist nonprofit organization looking for a writer slash editor. And I'm like, are you kidding me? So I look it up and it's this international organization and they're looking for someone, but they were looking for someone with like a master's degree and all these credentials. And I have none of those things. But I'm like, this job is for me. So I email them and I say, you know, I saw your listing. I'm really passionate about this.

I would love a chance to interview with you, but I don't have any of these credentials. Like, well, this came from corporate office. We are just the local branch, blah, blah, blah. And I responded going, that's all nice and fine, but you don't get it. This job is for me. So they granted me an interview and I show up. And at the time, again, all I had was scrub bottoms and a white t-shirt. And that's all.

And I showed up. And they are all. It's a Taiwanese organization, and they're very, they're in very formal attire, and they're sitting very properly, very upright. And her shirt was like buttoned all the way up here. And she's just sitting and just straight, no facial expression. And she's tight, you know, and her hair is tight, like, so tight in the back. Just like everything was so pressed, pressed. So, and just, and sitting all proper.

And I show up and I'm like, hey, how's it? You know, and it was just this really interesting, like, juxtaposition of we're both here for the same reason, but you're going about it very differently. And she's interviewing me and she's asking me all these questions and I've sent her sample writing. And the interview didn't take a turn until she finally asked me, do you have any questions for me? And I said, yeah, why do you work here? And all of a sudden, she broke down crying. And she told me how she loves the teaching. that their job is to translate the teachings from Chinese to English.

And it goes from Chinese to English and Chinglish to English. And my job was to be in that middle part. And she started crying. And she says, the master's values are so aligned with my own. She started telling me about the master's value. And in the most inappropriate of places, me wearing scrub bottoms and a t-shirt, I'm not kidding you, with her being all proper, I take off my shirt because on my back in Chinese characters are my values, which are in line with their teacher's values.

And she can read Chinese. So she starts crying. She gives me a hug. I'm uncomfortable. But I'm like, I got the job. And I did. And I worked there for years. And it was wonderful.

And we traveled all over the world doing disaster relief and translating the ancient teachings. What does it say on your back? So among other things, there is the unconditional love, the honesty, respect, and the trust. And it's all written around the cover of my second book, which is a tiny little figure with huge wings about liberation from conformity. So here's this, and I never conformed to their way, but they really implemented me into their mission.

And it worked really well, especially when we went and did disaster relief work in a place like Samoa, where they show up and they're all proper and Chinese. And I came with the Hawaiian vibe, which when we were meeting with the chiefs of every village, like sent him or to talk to them because he can relate to them. So I was an asset because I didn't conform. So yes, while you can teach your children that there is an expected conformity within a certain corporation, but I would argue that if that is not aligned with who they are,

that's not the job for them in the same sense that if you wanted to go out to dinner and they had a dress code, that's not where I want to eat. Right. Because I'm not going to change who I am. I don't even know for what purpose. Like it just seems like that's just not the restaurant for me. And you're like, but the food's really good. I'm like, I'd rather go to a place with mediocre food that accepts everyone as they are rather

than me having to conform. It does that make sense. Yeah, totally. So I think there is room for a conversation about what is expected, but then the ball is still in your court. Do you want to play the game or not? And much to your point with the meditation, you described the creek and the water flowing through it. For me, it was always like sitting on the sideline of, let's say, like, a busy street with cars and anxiety might drive by and fear and anger.

But you don't have to get into every car that pulls over. You just let him go. And so, I mean, because I did. I did conform to many jobs that I hated. I worked for Microsoft because I really wanted that name on my resume. But I would cry every day at work. I would take a break to go cry in the bathroom. It was terrible.

And at the end of the day, no one ever cared that I worked for Microsoft. So I wasted an entire year of my life thinking this is going to define who I am. I used to be so attached to my credit score and all things that never mattered. But I thought, because society pushes it on you, that your credit score matters and how you look matters. And if you want to play the game, then yeah, it matters a lot. But I just took myself out of the game. Before we go, I have two more things to ask you. And I think we may have covered this in our first episode, but I just want to say it again,

especially for people who might be meeting you, you know, for the first time, this time. You are allowed to date, correct? You're allowed to like have a life. I knew we were going to go there. I just knew that's where we're going to go. No, but I think also a lot of people might be like, oh, sure your life is easy when you don't have to think about anything or anyone. But, yeah. As I said, there are over 800 different schools of Buddhism, and they're not all the same.

And so, especially in the Zen tradition, Zen priests can get married, they can have children. And I remember asking the priest at the monastery if our intention is to live a simple and uncomplicated life. Yeah. Other humans are not. Why would you be in a relationship? Like that just sounds. I sometimes ask myself that. But what he said was beautiful.

He said there are things you can't learn about yourself outside of a relationship that you can only learn about yourself in one. Absolutely. And if your commitment is to growth and maturity, then being partnered is going to push all the right areas where you need to. Well, look, I'll be honest, you know, having kids is not for everyone, but that's like a whole other level that I can understand why people don't necessarily want to partake in. It is, you know, it's a real surrender. You know, that notion of like bringing something into the world that I also have no control, you know, ultimately over. And, you know, if attachment leads to suffering, like, my goodness, like to nourish a child, especially, like, like to nourish a child, like from your body, like literally, you give life to that human.

And then to have to, you know, emotionally take your hands off it at some point. It's very, very intense. Especially in Western culture when we link love and attachment to one another. Sure. It's not an Eastern philosophy at all. I mean, it's completely not loving someone and being attached to them. Attachment is almost the opposite of love. It's control.

It's possessive. It's my child. It's like, this is a human. They're on their own. Your children are not your children. I mean, yeah. The final question is I'd like you to talk to us about cold weather. Because this is, I think, you know, again, like you are a person.

You live in the world. And I think of you as having really, really, you do. You have a very, you have a lot of clarity and awareness about yourself and the things around you and how they impact you. But you have a reaction to. to cold that I don't want to say it's out of your character. Like everything we do is in our character. But I'd like you to talk about it. It's very human the way you talk about it.

Well, it's prior to moving to Hawaii, I was living in Seattle and everyone was taking bets that, oh, after Seattle, you're going to move to Alaska, aren't you? Because they just thought, I'm just going to move colder and colder and colder. And at the time, I think the government was paying you if you started a town in Alaska. And I was like, oh, we could do Timberville, Alaska. How cool would that be? And then I went to Hawaii. And, you know, for 10 years, all I had was shorts in it.

tank top and flip flops and it just right up minimalist alley of just I don't I also I'm I'm and when it rains there that's just how it is like you don't need to right and you don't need to like put on a rain slicker no right well people might not know yeah but the yeah when it rain you just jump in the ocean yeah um I also have a long sleeves anything touching me physically is is not comfortable for me so I have already this resistance to that. And so throw that with cold weather and I'm just miserable. And so, yeah, there's – and it's not aligned with, you know, being able to be at peace no matter what. And I can be at peace with it when I have no other choice.

But given the choice, I would much rather be warm than cold. 100%. It's been really, really wonderful to get to talk this way. the opposite of Namaste can be you can get it wherever you get books This is something I really love I think it's in all your books If you enjoy this book, please share it with your friends

And I just love that It's really, it's really special to get to share More of you with our audience And there's so many people I know who resonated with The first episode, I hope people will go And listen to that Anything else we should tell people about? I can't think of anything else

It's really a way There's nothing in the book we don't already know in any of my books. I'm not pretending to be offering any new information. I am merely translating ancient stuff to a language that people today cannot just understand, but actually implement into their lives. And that's where I think some people's frustration with the books comes in because they're like, I want to do this, but it'll require work. And I don't want to do the work. But I want to get the fruits of the labor. And I don't want to do the labor. And it's like, well, are you upset with the results you didn't get from work you refused to do? So it can be frustrating. But

I think in the greatest of ways. If the books are anything, I'd like for them to serve as a mirror so we can look at ourselves and stop blaming other people for our own dis-ease and just take ownership of it and responsibility for our ability to respond. So thank you for sharing it with others. Not just like I said in the book, yeah. I remember with Harper they were so upset what I would tell people, hey, if you liked it, share it with your friends.

They're like, don't do that. Tell them to buy more copies for their friends. I'm like, no, it's just if, yeah, it's just about spreading the message. And thank you. And we usually end the episode with me saying from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. But you very wisely were talking to me about how breakdowns can lead to breakthroughs. Often do. Yeah.

Every breakthrough I've ever had started with a breakdown. And so and people I know, too, when I witnessed them going through a really difficult time, in the back of my head, I'm not going to say it out loud, but in back of my head I'm thinking, good. Something really good is going to come of this. You know, Ticknon Hahn called it no mud, no lotus, meaning the lotus flower needs to go through the dirt and the mud and the just all of that murkiness because that nourishes the beautiful flower that ends up on top. So who are we to say, don't have your breakdown. What I think you do offer is when you go through the breakdown, here are some tools to help you get through it. And that's what I really love about it. So it's not

do you never have a breakdown. We hope to be there with you when you go through it and hold your hands. From our breakdown to the breakthrough that you deserve. We'll see you next time. It's Mym. Beallix Breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD or two. One fiction.

And now she's going to break down. It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down.