Mayim Bialik's Breakdown - Uzo Aduba: Mental Health of My Orange is the New Black Character, the Moment I Knew God is Real, & My Struggles with Being Seen

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Uzo Aduba Reveals the Story Behind "Crazy Eyes" on ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK: Faith, Resilience, and Identity   PLUS   The SHOCKING moment she experienced Supernatural Proof that GOD IS REAL!   Dive into the incredible journey of a unique & talented artist who balanced the high expectations of her family and culture with her passion for art....AND hear the jaw-dropping story of how she quit acting JUST BEFORE landing her iconic breakout role in ORANGE IS THE NEW BLACK.   Uzo discusses her fascinating approach to portraying Suzanne “Crazy Eyes” Warren (many people's favorite character on OITNB!) who struggled with mental health challenges, what it was like to break barriers in the early days of Netflix, and why she believes we should never reduce people to their past mistakes.   She explains why she still grapples with feeling seen, how the entertainment industry gave her the confidence to be herself, and the negative consequences of not following her intuition. Uzo also details what it was like to grow up in the only Nigerian family in her New England town, navigating the struggles of everyday microaggressions and the heavy burden of being the “model minority.”   With gripping tales of resilience through her mom’s cancer battle and the profound grief that followed, this is a story of faith, courage, and finding your true self.   Catch the magic on MBB — tune in and ignite your inspiration!    Uzo Aduba’s memoir, THE ROAD IS GOOD: https://sites.prh.com/theroadisgood   Ground News: Go to http://groundnews.com/break to get 40% off the unlimited access Vantage plan.     BialikBreakdown.com YouTube.com/mayimbialik     Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I loved the show called Oprah's Masterclass. For some reason I get home, I was like, let me watch that Lauren Michael's one. And he's talking about starting SNL. And like how the show was flopping. He said, I decided to give it one more go. And I thought that if I could just keep the faith, this is what I see on TV. The image dissolved. The words, keep the faith, scrolled across the bottom of the screen.

It turns into like, the only way I can describe it as like a countrytime lemonade commercial. Sky has all these like purples and reds and orange. and just big tree, there's a window on a house to the left. It almost feels like it smells like food. Something's baking. Keep the faith runs across the screen. I said, oh, I like that. When this is over, I'm going to rewind back to this part.

Pause it. Take a picture. A week later, I'm like, oh, I never took a picture of that. Keep the faith thing. I go back, not there. Stop. True story. Stop.

Not there. And I was like, I know what I saw. And it made me say, I knew God was real, but now I know God is real. You knew everything was going to be okay. It's my and Bialy's breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. Because you know she knows a thing or two. And now she's going to break down.

It's a breakdown. She's going to break it down. Amazon One Medical presents painful thoughts. I've been on hold to make a doctor's appointment for 23. minutes now. The automated voice has told me 47 times that my call is very important to them. Hmm. I'm starting to think that they don't think my call is important at all. With Amazon One Medical 24-7 virtual care, you'll get help fast without having to remain on the line to make an appointment. Amazon One Medical. Health care just got less painful.

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Hey, I just found out something astounding. Approximately 63% of those of you listening to or watching My Ambialx breakdown are not subscribed. We know you're listening and we know you're watching because of all of the awesome comments you leave telling us how My Ambielic's breakdown is helping you lead a happier and healthier life. We love that. But the best way to support our show is to subscribe. It's also the only way to get latest updates and to know when new episodes drops. So anywhere that you listen to podcasts and on YouTube, please subscribe, hit the bell icon so that you know when a new episode drops. Thank you so much and on to the episode. Hi, I'm Myambiallic. I'm Jonathan Cohen.

And welcome to our breakdown. and this is the place where we break things down, so you don't have to. Orange is the New Black. Still, after all these years. We're going to talk to Uzo Aduba, who played Crazy Eyes in Orange is the New Black for so many years. Also known as Suzanne.

She's going to talk about being raised as the child of Nigerian immigrants and how her love of performing and singing turned into a decision that acting must not be for her the day that she was cast in Orange is the New Black and her life changed forever. Very, very powerful woman and talks a lot about her mother's legacy.

Her book, The Road is Good. How a Mother's Strength became a daughter's purpose is also kind of a thread that she weaves into her whole story. Really so excited to get to talk to her. It's a powerful episode, and at the end, she describes an experience where she is guided. It's hard to describe the type of guidance she receives,

but it is not of this world. And the power that she derives from that is so interesting, just a fascinating experience that she shares. And if you have any questions in your life about intuition, faith, courage, or confidence, this is the episode for you. It's really a pleasure to welcome Uzo Aduba to the Breakdown. Break it down.

So my family is from New York. My parents were born during World War II in the South Bronx. Oh. And that, you know, it's a different kind of South Bronx. But anyway, my parents then lived in the village. You know, it wasn't called the village then. It was just like where all the artists and, you know, interesting people lived. Anyway, so we have a specific way that I was raised to speak, to think, to talk, to play.

And I assumed that a person from Toronto, which is the east coast of Canada, would have a lot in common. Newfoundland is the east coast of Canada. With the Bronx specifically? No, with just, like, I thought. that he would speak the way I speak. But he teases the way I speak. Just in rapid succession. Yeah.

He teases my accents, my awes, my, you know. Oh, okay. So you're giving heavy New York. And you're giving a boot. I don't personally think I have an accent, but I get outed. You do. Outed you. Outed you.

My outed you. I've been in the States a while. Okay. You're not from New York, though. You're from Greater New England, as we say. Exactly. That's right. So, yeah, tell us a little bit about sort of like where you grow up.

your parents were immigrants, correct? Yes. My parents are from, my family were all from Nigeria. They immigrated to the United States. Born also during World War II. Oh, well. I was going to say coincidentally, but it was the world. But I grew up in a small town outside of Boston called Medfield, Massachusetts, like, 45 minutes outside the city.

A very traditional New England town, by that, I knew. mean, very white, perhaps also where the Anglos met the Saxons, like, just like very that. And so being first-gen, being first-gen, Nigerian, there were very, very, very, very few black people there. And probably even fewer Nigerians. Very few Nigerians. None. Exactly zero in the town other than myself and my family. And, you know, so it was just like. everything was so new to everybody. And also we're talking like growing up,

I'm born in the 80s, you know what I mean? So it's like we're talking a very specific time. Also, we're talking Boston, post-bussing. You know, so it's a community that was, had not progressed to where one would necessarily imagine, say, today. So can you spell it out for us a little bit? Like, whereas other places might have been progressive, this was not a place that was? Not initially, no. Like my older brother, my older sister,

I call them frontliners, you know. They were definitely terrible lasers and blazed a path for my brother and sister and I to have a much easier experience than the ones either of them had, specifically, I would even say my older brother, you know, taking the brunt of it, even when my parents, you know, bought a house there. It took, they were getting redlined a lot in the beginning. But then they settled in. And, you know, it was a, it's in this mixture of people who were like, as if we had stepped off a planet, different from Earth to settle into the community. But then there were also people who we had, like, shout out to Mrs. Brown and Mrs. Swanson, our neighbors, who were so welcoming and couldn't have been for further backgrounds than ours than they were, you know,

Mrs. Swanson, who's one of the most beautiful humans in this world, their family. She's from down, down, deep, south Louisiana and was one of the most generous, loving humans I've ever met in my life, and remains so to today, and welcoming as well, and her entire family. So, yeah, it was just a bit of that. What did being American feel like, like to your parents and then also to you? American to my parents, you know, it was, it's weird because it's like they had such a wedded understanding of African culture and Western culture. You know, it was nothing to them to sort of rock a traditional Nigerian outfit on a Monday and then, you know, on a Tuesday be riding in like, you know, a three-piece suit or something. Like that was commonplace in Nigeria. And

And it was odd to them to come to America and be met with this idea that their traditional clothes were like looked down upon, frankly, as unintelligent, as socioeconomic groups. You know, all of these things sort of labeled them in a place, in a way of others, othering. You know, my mom used to say all the time, she's like, I didn't know there was anything wrong with being black until I moved to America. You know, she didn't know. she just didn't know because everybody is black and everybody is doing the highest jobs or, you know, working with their hands. And it's nobody thinks any less of any of those people. So she didn't know. And then it was like, for me, my experience, you know, it's a little bit of a mix of just that experience every kid at a certain, you know, adolescent age has where you just want to fit in.

whatever that means fitting in. If straight hair is the rage, we don't want the curly. You know what I mean? Like, whatever the thing is. Like, everybody just wants to fit in. So that's definitely true for me. Like, you know, you're going to school

and you're at lunch and everybody's opening up their cool, you know, my little pony lunchbox or whatever. And you definitely do not have that. What a waste of money in my parents' minds? Like, what is this? You know? And they're, like, jamming on, like, P.B. and J.

or like turkey or baloney and cheese, whatever. And it's like, here I come with my jolof rice and like foo-foo. And like, you know, everybody's like, what is that? And I'm like, it's jelop rice and it's delicious. You know what I mean? Like it's so good. But yes, it's like, ew, that's smell. You know, things like that.

Mixed also with being super knowledgeable and tapped in, of course, with everything that's going on culturally at the time. Like, I know every, you know, like, you know every lyric to Fresh Prince of Bel Air, saved by the belt, whatever, you know, and sort of navigating these two sides of yourself, three sides, you know, if you also want to, you add the layer of, like, culture, race, and, I guess, nationality, you know? What was it like for your parents, especially your mom, to have that realization, you know, going from Nigeria where everyone is black, as you said, and there's not a problem being black, too. I imagine they're coming to America. They're hoping for opportunity. They're not anticipating

some of the struggles that they faced. Is that not disillusioning for them? The stress that that would put on you to have your dreams sort of have this major obstacle or complication. What was that like? I mean, I also need to like preface the story with my mother actually first stopped in Sweden. So, like, you couldn't get even more. We don't feel comfortable in Sweden. It's like, where are we? You know what I mean? Like, yeah, first stopped and lived in Sweden.

You know. With all due respect to Swedish people. Yeah, we love to, we love to Sweden. We love us. A wonderful country. Everybody's very happy there. Yes. Fair and equal, you know?

Like, we love the, yes. Winter, but she, like, experienced snow. And she actually came to your friendly country of Canada before. A lot of Nigerian population. Yeah, before coming into. the U.S. because that's where her then-husband was living before they immigrated properly into the U.S. But yeah, it was

definitely a challenge. My mom would tell these stories of how she didn't even know what racism was because, of course, she hadn't experienced it, like, practically. She knew the theoretical understanding of it from, like, what she had read. But in terms of, like, the really more, like, almost subverted versions than, like, less,

more nefarious microaggressant and she was not as versed in that. You know, she was familiar with like marches on Selma

and think versions of the sit-ins. She knew what that looked like. But she didn't know the day-to-day experience. So she would tell

these stories of the experiences she would have, you know, where she would show up her job interviews to be a teacher for the teacher position and they

would send her to the custodial interview that was happening around the corner and just based on site. And, like, she didn't know it at the time. That's sort of innocence and naivete to it.

You know, she was going, what would ever make them think that that's what I was here for based on? You know, I came to the place that they told me to come to for my interview, and then they send me around to the back of the school. And, you know, she was so confused. And years later, when she now had a grasp on culture and subtlety in America, she would flash back to it and she'd be like,

I was so mad. I wish I could go back to that school. Just, you know, go and bash those people with my words, you know, and tell them, I know what you were doing. This is what you were doing. It also, I mean, it really highlights, it highlights the absurdity of race.

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They'll ask how you heard about them. Make sure to mention my and biolics breakdown to help support the show. That kind of experience because it should be so foreign, right, to someone that you would be judged or denigrated because of the color of your skin, right? It's George Foreman, you know, the first time when he flew on an African airline and he was like, the pilot is black. Has everybody seen what's happening? He's like, what is that? Yeah. The pilot, the man driving the plane.

And like, that's how absurd. It was to him that like we live in, I mean, it's, you know, when your worldview is this big, that's right. That's exactly what you'll judge it by, you know. That's right. That's really interesting. And the exposure, depending on where you live and how you have been conditioned to understand groups, communities, the world determines how not only you view those communities,

but then how those communities would view themselves. It's not, to your point of the George Foreman of it all, it's like deconement. not almost believe it because the world has conditioned to him to believe it as unimagined. Amazon Pharmacy presents painful thoughts.

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And even that was like a pretty small window. It was like, oh, you get to see that most bands are not attractive, right? Like video killed the radio star. And then also you're like, oh, there's hip-hop culture that I get to understand that like wasn't in my neighborhood, like that, you know, so like, that opened up our world, but, but also when you think about, it's so different now, because back then what we knew of Africa, what white people knew of Africa, right? What most of our culture in the West knew of Africa was extremely limited. Like, I knew about South Africa. I knew about, you know, the battles there. Like,

I knew about that. And I knew a bit about North Africa, right? Because like Egypt and Morocco, like these are places where people go to Israel from North Africa, right? But for all, a lot of us, the rest of it is kind of, you know, I wonder if you can talk a little bit, because it's a huge and threaded component of your book is really introducing Nigerian culture, you know, both as it was taught to you and also as it kind of infuses your worldview.

If you had to, like, you know, in a little thumbnail, like tell us about the culture that you were raised in. The culture I was raised in is one of fierce determination. It's a people who have, survived a number of onslaughts, be it colonialism, be it slavery, be it, you know, by the Afrin Civil War, my own family experienced that, and we're the side of the oppressed, you know, in that story. It's people who, it's the most populated group living outside of Africans living outside of the continent. And we have, I believe, just

such a fighting spirit and we love this country of America. The Nigerians come here and the promise that it holds in its constitutions and its creed that I think is so wonderful. And our families, you know, it's different from today. For example, I have a lot of Nigerian younger cousins who have the foothold well established for themselves. But, you know, when I was coming up as a kid, my parents were the first in both of their families to immigrate to the United States. And they were befriending a lot of people who were firsts, you know. And it was a time where people built community because there was none, especially, you know, in Boston. A lot of people settled in Boston because of schools. It's such like a hotbed for like higher education. And it's like,

I think of it all the time. It's like almost like the Mayflower, you know what I mean? It's like people later like there are harder places in America. We didn't even have to stop here. We didn't have to deal with the snow. We could have been unused to. We could have been in California. You know, like they just didn't know. You know.

And a very, very loving community with high expectations for those of us who are born here to seek and reap every opportunity that this country can provide. Really beautifully said. And I wonder if you can help us understand how, you know, that, how that met with your desire to be creative and to be an artist.

You know, a lot of my grandparents are immigrants. And, you know, the notion of like being an artist was like, I'm sorry, what? You know, they said to my mother, like, no, that's not a, you know, what, it can be your, it's not your vocabody. Right, it's a hobby, right? And my mother always wanted to go to fashion school and she was really interested. And then it was like, no, we don't do that, you know. And I'm curious, you know, what, what? What was it like?

How did sort of creativity come to you? You know, you come from a big family, so obviously not all of you are actors. Yeah. But I'm curious, what was it about you that felt that need for, you know, a creative expression that way? I always had, like, when I think back

of, like, being, like, in the back, you know, downstairs singing and doing all these, like, random things. Like, obviously, I must have been, like, displaying a passion for it. It wasn't anything my parents were pushed. But they did, again, And like, because this country had so many opportunities, I think they wanted to employ them, you know, as often as possible.

And, like, my mom also, she used to say, she's like, if I grew in this country, I would have been, probably would have been an artist because she was beautiful visual artist. She's like, but that just doesn't exist, you know. So I was put in, like, you know, drama, closet, my school and all of these things. And it was really my creative writing teacher who also was my drama club director who pulled me after class one day. She was like, I was just curious what you were thinking about doing, you know, next year.

Is that your white lady voice? Yeah. It's like, yeah, I was like, are you curious what you're doing? So also I lean into the mic for some reason as if I'm Diane Sawyer. I don't know what I'm exactly trying to channel, but here we are.

She was like for school next year where you were applying and I was like, oh, you know, I was thinking about this, this, that, that, whatever, I want to do. I are and I love government and policy and I think I want to be a lawyer and move to D.C. and be a lobbyist.

You know, like that's what I thought. Didn't know what a lobbyist actually. That was, but that sounded right. And she was like, okay. She's like, have you given any thought to going into the arts? And here's where being the child of immigrants

comes into play. Because honestly, even though my parents had put us in these programs and things, their knowledge and exposure, like, had a cap. You know, they just, like, litigate, we never, I had never even heard of art school, conservatory, like, such a thing in my life. And it's not because my parents were, like,

hiding the pamphlets away or something. was just like, they didn't know. You know, like, they had no idea. And so... I mean, they were busy with a lot of other things in their defense. They're trying to, like, establish a family. Fair enough. Race five kids.

They're like, we're just trying to make it out here, kids. We just need to go to college. And preferably... Stop dancing. Yes, exactly. A profession that makes money. And I was just, like, standing there. And I know I had to have looked like with, like, just, like, no clue what she was

talking about. She's like, I feel like you could do something in this. You know, and she was just like, pause for a second. And she, like, cocked her head just like this to the side. And she was like, you know you can go to school for this, right? And I had truly no idea. But when she said it, a light bulb went off in my head. Like, that's what I'm supposed to do for my life.

And, like, I remember going to graduation, having my graduation party from high school. And I'm, like, telling all my aunts and uncles what I'm doing. And that did not compute for them because now I'm, like, no longer on the lobbyist train. I'm on the going to art school, Boston University College of Fine Arts. I remember my uncle, he asked me, like, so what will you be studying there in a BU? I was like singing. And he was like, singing, just ordinary singing. And I was like, yep.

And then my aunt, she said to me, she said, so he moved to America, I say you could be poor. Because they totally could not even conceive of what I was even talking about. Now they all say that they always believe. That's what they say after. I knew it. But it's a reasonable expectation. If I were your parents, I'd be like, the hell you are.

I'm sorry. I mean, if you look back into your class and maybe your class is abnormal, but if you look back to the people who were in singing 101 and making that class up, how many of them are actually making a living doing that for a profession? Sure. The odds are not, you know, on our side. Like I can legit remember my freshman year.

It was, it wasn't, it was like right after matriculation and we were in whatever school meeting. and I can remember the dean talking and said, less than 1% of you are going to make a living doing this. I also remember in that moment saying in my head, as I'm sure many of my classmates said to themselves, I was like, I'm going to be one of the... You felt like that?

I don't know if I knew to think differently. So is that just the... I mean, I'm literally an actor acting like I have no idea what you're talking about. No, but I think that's... know, you'll meet people in their 50s who are waiting for their first break. And they still have that kernel of, right? Like belief, hope, faith, artistic, whatever. I did not have that.

Yeah, I did not have that. But I think that's, it's really interesting to me because it takes that many people to believe, right? To try and create. Yes. Yes. Art is belief. I think there is faith steeped in art making. You know, I think it's, it's intrinsic to the foreman.

I think, right? Because something that, no matter what the medium, it does not exist until you, from your mind, draw it out into something, whether that's character, whether that's painting, whether that's music. I didn't think we were going to faith this quickly. I was like in my back pocket of like a dog-eared page. Okay, so what you just described is how, like, the biblical understanding of the creation of the universe is that there was nothing.

And then there was something because of a creative. loving force that decided, whatever that means, that we're going to create something out of nothing. So I'm curious, was there any aspect of kind of feeling divinely guided? Because, you know, what we do as humans is to emulate something bigger than ourselves, right? And that is kind of what artists are doing. We're taking something that didn't exist until we feel moved to create it. Did it feel divine?

Did it feel, were you driven by a faith that way? I don't know if it felt necessarily divine. I don't feel like I had like a Moses moment, but like I did, you know, but I did feel latched to my faith that I don't know. I'm not going to. I gave up. I quit exactly one time. But before that time, whether it was my belief and then even when my belief and then even

when my faith was wobbly. My mother's faith was so strong and strong enough to pour into me to give me the covering that I needed to keep going. So I did not feel like I had a message per se or I was like specific, you know, extra special or anything like this. But I did have...

a knowing that I needed to just believe. You know, I had to just believe, coupled with, let me also say, because by the time I graduated, I remember me and my best friend of the time talking about that summer before moving to New York, we were like, I said to myself, I said, I am going to have to work harder than I have ever worked in my life. So, right, if we're going to go there, let's go there.

Faith without works is dead, right? That's what it says. And I'm, I believed that, that I have to really, really, really, really, really work at this. But I had faith that something, and my mom would say this. I'll say, end with this. My mom, when she dropped me off when I moved to New York, she turned off the car, getting ready to get on the bus. And she was like, also, you must work hard. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay, I know.

And she's like, no, no, no, work hard. And she always used to say this expression to us our whole eyes coming up as kids. She'd say, I've never heard of nothing coming from hard work. She said, I don't know what will come, but I do know something will come if you work hard. And I had that burned into my brain. She had said it countless times before,

but for some reason, that day it stuck. And I was like, something will come. I don't know what will come, but something will. So you studied voice. And can you explain to those of us who didn't study voice?

Yeah. Did you set a classical, you sing like a proper opera lady? Yeah, exactly. And so you learn music theory and all these things and performance. And then not every singer is an actor. Yeah.

Not every actor is a singer. You happen to be both of these things. Yeah. So when you moved, to Manhattan, was the idea to be a singer, an actor, all the things? Did you also dance? I move. Okay.

I move. I'm not giving you 40 seconds street at all. I wish I could. I wanted to sing and I wanted to act, yeah. But I knew I was not going to pursue opera. I did know that, but I did want. What's it like to study opera? Do you just like discover that you can do that?

Is it something you knew? Because a lot of us sing in the shower. A lot of us, you know, grew up when you did and there was amazing music to sing along to. But like opera is a very special thing that not everybody can also learn to do. Like it's, there's an innateness to your talent. Yeah. I found out when I was, I had started working, you know, someone in our town told me to get a voice teacher. My parents got me one.

And the voice teacher was a classically trained voice teacher. And I was just singing. And I guess my voice, especially towards the top, is low as my voice. is. I'm actually a soprano. That's cute. Yeah. But as I go up, it just flips into that space. Hold, please. It flips into that space. That very full-sounding head voice naturally. It just naturally would go that way.

Your vocal cords were made to do that. Yeah. Or they can do that. They can do that. It just went into that place. And it like vibrates a little bit? Yeah. It had that like kind of vibe. So that was just through her guidance, my voice teacher, Cheryl Weiss in high school, guided me towards that path. Did you have to sing in other languages? I sang another languages.

Like Italian? Italian. German? Yeah. Do you have to know those languages? Some what? Yes, I studied Italian in college. We also take phonetics class

and we learn a complete phonetic out. that so that way we can. But as people go deeper and deeper down the road for opera, it is highly recommended that you immerse. Immers yourself in another language. I did speak French going into college. I'm not a French opera. I know.

A little bit. Small, small. I tell my Hansel and Greta's story now. Gretel's story now. Tell me, yes. So I love Hansel and Gretel. The opera. Oh, okay.

Like I was a classically trained ballet dancer in my youth. And I really loved ballet. And so I was taken to see Hansel and Gretel, and it was a ballet, and it was really lovely. But it was also an opera, and I did not enjoy that part because they were singing the whole time in a different language. And the letters were, it was like illuminated. This is not, this is downtown.

I got all dressed up. I mean, it was lovely, but not, it's just not my jam. Yeah, yeah. And, like, I just, there's something about. about it. Like, I understand it. I value it. And I'm, you know, I'm a liturgical Jewish singer. And so, like, there's, like, cantorial styles that can be very operatic. But just, sorry, that's my Hansel and Gretel story. It's not very exciting at all. But that's my opera story. And your parents took you to that? No, it was my boyfriend at the time. Oh, okay. Yeah. And it was, again, like, I didn't need the

singing. And I couldn't follow along. And it was. Just the ballet, please. Just dance. Just. Just, yeah, I don't mean to sound so uncultured, but I can't help it. Not all of us came from outside of Boston. Amazon Pharmacy Presents Painful Thoughts. I read somewhere that the average Americans spends 13 hours a year waiting in pharmacies for prescriptions. Clearly, I am above average.

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wherever candy is sold. Before we get into how you discovered that you were also an actor, maybe you knew that going into school. Can you tell us about the time that you quit? Sure. So I quit. Well, you said you quit acting once.

Exactly once. And that was that time that I quit. I was, yeah, so I had been doing theater in New York and I started working with, a manager who was from Hollywood. And she told me, much like my creative writing teacher, that I should pursue film and television.

And I think because, honestly, you guys, because she was from Hollywood, I believed her. And way back here in the back of my brain, it was a secret pipe dream of mine that I didn't even give way to because I just had never seen anybody I felt like myself.

in that space. So it just, it's horrible to say that I somehow felt like Broadway felt safer because we've all seen a course line. But like, you know,

a lot of legs. You know, but I was just like, that felt like I felt like I was, a welcoming pad was there. So I was like, okay, we're not,

she's like, we're not auditioning for any film, I'm not auditioning for any plays. And we're, we're not taking any offers. I was like, lady. not getting offers, but thank you for believing

in me in that way, you know? So I'm auditioning for all these films and TV shows this summer. That's a leap of faith also to be like, I'm going to like put my bag here and see what happens. 100%. And this is my bread and butter at this point. And I was going to say, you're working hard. Correct.

And all these things are part of that ethic. Correct. I am making, I'm making a humble living, but it's my living, right? Like I'm making it and I'm happy with it. but like I'm watching my bank account like dwindle you know so I go on this audition for an episode of blue bloods sorry no first I went for an audition for orange is the new black do the audition don't hear anything it's in a series of I think you described it like a firing squad and that is what it's like when you go for an audition it's like six people behind a table and they're like go do it do it make us laugh yes do the thing and I was like okay go for this audition for blue bloods

I get sent the wrong directions I go to this other studio nobody's there they send me the right directions Greenpoint Brooklyn for those who don't know where Greenpoint is I go to the right studio I'm 20 minutes late

we all know as actors not supposed to be late There wasn't cell phones then either There are cell phones Well I'm trying to think But we didn't have GPS It wasn't like right I'm on the fucking whatever

MapQuest or whatever Google Maps Can I slam sorry I didn't mean to swear. Sorry. You can't. You know? So it's like, I'm just like so upset.

Like just starting to feel the tears bubbling. Get in the room. Do my bit. I finished. I remember feeling like for the first time it was a great audition. And I was like, that was a great audition. You're not going to get this job, though, because you're 20 minutes late. And the universe has been telling you like a hundred times now.

No. And you keep trying to push something. is not for you. That's a lot going on in your head. Oh, my gosh. Are you telling me? I mean, I'm saying this as I'm walking out. I hit the street leaving this office tears immediately.

And the tears aren't the tears where it's like screaming, you know, when those are bad, too. Like, it's the kind that are just like falling and I can't stop it. And I get on the train, three transfer, I'll never forget it on the subway. transferring three times still by the time I get to my house tears I said this surrender prayer on the train and I was like I if you can find a way for me to go to law school remember those old law school's lawyer bit I was like this is what you were supposed to do with your life and you've been making a mistake with your life this whole time it's like if you god can find a way for me to go to law school I will go.

And I wasn't like at peace, I would say, but I was definitely resolved, like had resolved that that was what I thought life was meant for me. It wasn't, and I was going to go

do this other thing. So I would like, order some sushi, I order some wine. I call my sister. I'd tell her to come over. I'm going to tell her first. On Monday, this is a Friday. I'm like, on Monday,

I'm going to call my agent and this Hollywood manager. and tell them I'm out. Crazy bitch, that's Hollywood manager. Who doesn't know what she's talking about. My phone is on my coffee table. It's 5.43 p.m. True story. My phone rings, and I get the call.

And my agent's like, hi, you know. I have Joan on the phone. And I was like, oh, okay, this is the Hollywood manager. It's like, okay. And she says to me, she goes, and I think they're calling because I'm 20 minutes late. So I was like, okay, here we go. This is good, just as good as, you know, to sell it today.

She says to me, she goes, you remember that audition you went on for Orange is the New Black? I said, yeah. She said, you remember the part you auditioned for? I said, yeah, I remember it was the track star, the part of the cracker. She says, yeah, you didn't get it. And I was like, I'm getting out right at the right time when agents are now calling talent to tell them that the jobs they're not getting. You know, like, I'm getting out right in the right moment. She's like, but they'd like to offer you another part.

Yeah. And I, tears again, full tears. And it was the one. I have to go to law school. Yeah, exactly. I'm supposed to go and be a lobbyist. Yeah, it's like, I'm moving to D.C. right now. You know, like, it was just like wild.

And it was the one and only time I had ever truly quit. I've questioned, wondered. felt lost, but I had never quit in my heart. You know, but I did quit in my heart that day. For that afternoon. For that afternoon. Exactly, right. For those 30 minutes, I was out.

You quit very quickly. I was out. Yeah, true story. So, yeah, walk us through a little bit of what happened next. This was a guest spot, correct? Yeah. So I got the job, and I also got the job. And I also got that blueboard to jump.

Also, sidebar, I did. I did get that job. First two things I'd ever booked on TV. I'd never been on camera before. And my life. And so it was, they told me it was two episodes, maybe three. To play Suzanne Crazy Eyes Warren. I was like, okay.

And it was just, it's so wild. Like now I'm like thinking about it. You know, and as I was writing this book, like, thinking about it again, like just such a wild time because we did the two episodes. I can remember the producer walking me back to my dressing room. And she said, she said, and we'll see you, you know, we can't wait to see you again. And I was like, wow, you know, I'm going to get to do that third episode. And that was the extent of my thought.

Like, I'm going to get to do that third episode. It's amazing. Like, this is so incredible. I had no idea that conversations had, you know, subtly begun with my agent at the time, my manager at the time that they would like me to stay on for the rest of the season. I had no idea whatsoever.

And then that's what ended up happening. And it was just like this. And even, you know, honestly, even with that, when we finished the season, I just was like, that was awesome. And we got, I thought that was the end. Like, I had no expectations for anything. You played a very distinctive character on Orange is the New Black,

and many people's kind of, you know, beloved, most talked about, you know, kind of character. I'm curious in terms of, like, character development. Is that how you intended to do it going in? Like, was that what your audition was like? Did you have other ways you did it? Were you directed a certain way that became this character? that we know of? How did that evolve? It was a mix, I guess, I would say, of both.

You know, the only thing that was a holdover from my audition because I auditioned for a different part was that I had worn my hair in the Bantu Nose. And so when I came in, I remember reading it, and I thought I was, for me, it felt very clear that I was reading a love story. That's what I was looking at. I was like, this is a love story. she's what one what would somebody do for love and I would do anything for love and I know I've had my heartbroken and I know what love has felt like and looked like to me you just quoted meatloaf also

props to that thank you anything for love I know you studied song theater singing I'll bring it yes I'm bringing my depth of catalog into this yeah um so I was just like you know that's how I kind of saw her and then um Marco Ramirez who wrote that first episode, but Sean Hedder, who wrote episode three, which was the larger, whatever, episode for Crazy Eyes, she, along with our director for that episode, Jody Foster, were very open, along with the show creator Jenji, to hearing ideas and seeing ideas. And we had rehearsal and I remember I had heard this poem that I do out of the track. I had heard it, you know, I had, like, I have a wild imagination anyway, but I was just like, oh, wouldn't it,

she's like, this beat poet, like, fancies herself as somebody who's like down at the New York Rican cafe and, you know, the Lower East Side and thinks like she's, you know, the next Nikki Giovanni or something, you know, like she's, that's where she's, that's, she's not just reading it. And I was so grateful. I remember that. day being out in the field, Sean could see that I had an idea. And she said, what is, what do you think? And I was, and that gave me such a freedom because I said, okay, well, this is how I heard it, you know, but if you don't want to do it that way, we can do it, you know, however you want, but this is how I heard it. I'm all standing there and I did it. And Jody was like,

do it exactly that way. And that was such a permission and a license, not only for the further development of the character, but a freedom to even explore the full range of her existence that perhaps if I had been interrupted or stunted at any point earlier because I had no experience in this medium. I was used to four weeks of rehearsal, you know, all of this, right, where you make it and develop it, I'm not sure it would have been that. But thankfully, I was surrounded by this wonderful body of women. who were open to ideas and interpretation. What gave you the confidence to sort of hold space there?

Because I think, you know, I think this is something a lot of people could relate to. Like, sometimes we're put into situations. And especially when we're new or we're novice, you know, or it's like a new-ish thing, you don't really know, I don't want to say what right you have, but I think especially as women, and I would imagine, you know, with your background and your experiences, there'd be a lot of places where you might say, like, no, I shouldn't. I shouldn't speak up. I should just keep my head down.

Like, what was it? Was it something particular about you? Like, is that your mother's spirit in you? Like, what gave you that confidence? I think it's a combination. I think it's a piece of my spirit. I love rehearsal. That's my favorite part of the process, frankly. You know, I love, of course, the performance that's, like, satisfying we are actors. But it's like the rehearsal has always been the most exciting part.

Like getting in the dirt and putting the water in the mud and watching the clay morph into something. Or just trying to step around the mud so nobody gets dirty is what like many of us do. No, I like to roll around in it. I like to roll around in it. And, you know, I might get dirty and there might be mistakes. But from that is going to be born something that's going to come out of that that can be useful. Not nothing.

Not nothing. Exactly if we're doing the work coupled with the support. I cannot underscore enough how... significant Genji Kohane was in that process for the writer's room and who she welcomed into that space, i.e. Lauren Morelli,

who was a fresh new writer at that time and giving her actual agency. Then coupled with that same excitement and invitation to create that she gave to the cast to really create, you know, really create. something and was always interested in hearing the word on the page as written and then was always open to the idea if there is a better idea I am welcome to that I welcome the better idea that takes a real that takes a confidence for sure I don't know those people sounds wonderful though it also takes a huge amount of surrender that you're going to get somewhere that's fundamentally better than where you started to the sort of

of like allow yourself to go into that and take all those ideas and not think it's going to get watered down and bad that you can direct it and or guide it to a place that is ultimately improves and finds those unexpected moments. Correct. Correct. And she really, you know, that show was hitched on so many of us. Like it's important to say so many of us who had never done film and television before. A lot of people who are coming out of conservatory, a lot of people coming out of the theater scene, downtown and uptime alike, but didn't have this bench.

We weren't a bench of, you know, people who had been in the space. That takes a confidence on her part, knowing I have a really great story here, and these actors can tell it that we don't always see. We see it sometimes, and we get excited by it when we see it.

Well, yeah, I mean, I think, and Jonathan's heard, you know, these stories, you know, I was raised from the time of, like, a teenager in a very classic, like sitcom world that was, you know, largely governed by, by male, you know, white male, older, you know, presence. Yeah. And there was a very specific way you did things.

You know, there's a real formula that you followed. And then obviously I worked for, you know, Chuck Lorry, who's, you know, a master of the format of what we did. Yep. But a very different, you know, kind of aspect of Hollywood. And it's funny because when I... It's a much tighter format than... It's a...

Well, sitcom is a tighter format. I mean, it has more boundaries, obviously. and it has more structure to it. But I think also what's interesting is, you know, streaming networks didn't used to exist, right? And so, like, there's this, like, burgeoning possibility. And I think spaces that a lot of women stepped into as creators and judging being one of them, like, you know, writers,

kind of being like, what if we break the format of the way we're told the industry has to work, you know? And I think that's kind of what, I mean, your show was really early on in the days of, like, what is this? Where is it? Where do you watch it? You know, how is it? Oh, it's a new format.

And I think it's really kind of nice to hear that the structure also was a new format, you know, from the way things had been done. 100%. I mean, when we had that show, I can't tell you the number of people when we shot the first season, I told that we were, like, I was like, oh, it's a web series. I was like, I don't know. A little bigger budget. I legit didn't know because there was no such thing.

Right. I was like, I think it's going to be able to, like, on YouTube maybe. know, like, where you can get it. Like, I had no idea. And it wasn't until House of Cards came on that I was like, oh, it's going to like, it's going to be like that, you know, because I didn't have any idea, you know. But yes, it was that sort of like the newness, the new frontier of it all. And the confidence, I think also, I have to just like say this. I can remember one time season one, we had finished a take of a scene. And we were walking back to our. dressing rooms, and we were going past the village where everybody watches, you know?

Video Village. And every seat there was occupied, say, one, by a woman. And I just remember, even in the theater, I had never seen such a thing. It's different. Yes. And it fills your bones differently. Yeah. When you see those seats held in that way. And it makes you think differently about, A, the trajectory of your own career and what is even possible for you. You think about girls' school.

We talk a lot about, like, I was just scared to raise my hand in school. I don't know. Boys are, boys can be mean. Girls can be mean, too. Absolutely. Sometimes boys are meaner than girls when you're 8, 10, 12. And I think about what happens when we put girls in supportive academic environments, right? Yep.

Like a lot of that fear goes away. And of course, there's exceptions to this. There's people who are going to be like, I had a mean teacher want. Yes, women can be mean. Women can be foolish. Women can be not great creators and producers and all these things. But the notion is you're trying to foster a climate that has a different operating system. That's right.

That's right. Yeah. A hundred percent. A hundred thousand percent. That's why I didn't win an Emmy. No. A little bit. No, that is definitely not one.

Well, I don't know. My goal is to have on every person I've ever lost. Oh, my God. A lot of years. A lot of years. Anyway. OMG. Oh, M.G.

Sorry. Go ahead. I want to get to what the success of the show, how that changed your life. And the cultural impact that had, like, it was a massive show. It exploded. It sounds like when you were. were filming the first three episodes, you were not aware of what was about to unfold. Before we get there, I'm curious to talk a little bit about the character and, you know,

the mixture of the challenges she had, mentally emotionally, while also she was a character and, you know, I want to disclose here. I watched the whole, I watched every episode of Orange is the New Black, I kind of... He auditioned for your part. Yeah, exactly. I didn't get it. This is where we're all here. I think I got to it a little bit later, but like...

And, you know, I was just totally enthralled by it. Your character also has one of the clearest, almost sets of moral guidelines and in how she acted and how loyal she was and what she would do for friends and protection. And yet also her own struggle. So I wonder if you can talk about the balance there or the counterbalance between those two. Yeah, you know, my hope in playing that role was as broad as aspects of who she, of her existence might have appeared. I do think she was still very grounded and rooted in truth. And I felt very sensitive to that given the fact that she was battle.

a mental illness. And also, you know, going back to this conversation of freedom, because it was never disclosed, specifically what it was, she was battling, that did provide a freedom to not sort of research one thing and stick to the boundaries of that one. This is how people behave when they have, yeah. Correct.

Did you get any information about what was going on with her? Not when we started. Because in the later seasons, they introduce her parents, which is a very complicated relationship, which brings an enormous amount of insight in humanity into how she is, how she is. Correct. I mean, we, you know, they knew where I'm, where I had grown up. And, you know, the complexity of that where she's adopted, she's adopted by this white family, she's adopted into this white family in a white suburb, you know, what is her deal, you know, her story.

And I think what freed me was rather than, you know, than hanging my hat on her diagnosis, I could hang it on doing my very best to try to, as clearly as I could, translate what it was that she was trying to express. And so it became more about her emotional journey and experience of the world and less about the trials of being a,

a mentally divergent individual, a neurodivergent person. And that felt, and frankly, feels more interesting to play. You know? So that was really like the journey there. Because what I knew for sure, she knew what she was saying.

That's what I knew for sure. Even no matter how many roads she took to get there, or how she maybe expressed herself, whether it was aggressively or, obsessively. I knew her intention was incredibly clear. It just got fuzzy when it came to the action of it for others, too. I mean, is it crazy to say that she's just an exaggerated extrapolation of what most people experience? Like, she's guided by clear desire to have love connection, to feel a sense of connection, and yet her frustration or coping mechanisms get really tangled and are just

larger or more pronounced than others. A thousand percent. And I think that's true for the show itself. I think the show taught us, you know, the tagline for the show is every sentence has a story. And I think it's so easy for us to look at the headline of, you know, convicted felon and reduce somebody to that and not do the good work or the heavy lift of extrapolating that.

or sorry, really like, what is the word I'm looking for, dissecting, thank you, dissecting that into more nuanced and specifics that are required there, that sometimes socioeconomic plays. Well, I was going to say, and not to get political, but I can't help it, it's much easier to ignore people

when you don't care about them. So it's when you're imprisoning a large person, portion of a population because of political motivation. Sorry, like Ava Diverna here. No. Yeah. Once you, once you dehumanize people by experience, by taking away their story, right, by taking away their identity, it's much easier to keep oppressing and imprisoning. That's correct. Once you know, and I think that's what Orange is the New Black meant to so many people. It was really ahead of its time and so needed to see. say there's a story here and what happens when you open up your heart, you have to open up your mind

and then you have to also, I mean, not, but this is, I think, part of the conversation. You then have to challenge what is the structure that's being put in place for us not to be able to open up, you know, our minds and hearts to the people that were, you know, a thousand percent, thousand percent. And I think by the end of the series, you know, the show got incredibly, I think, dense and certainly started to take its stories and a more intellectual. intellectual direction that questioned we, the viewer. You're enjoying this, but what are you even getting out of this? What have you really understood of the conversation that's meant to be had with this art?

You know, which is how did any of these people get here? Well, that's exactly it. As the show progressed, each one had a very complicated set of circumstances that was flashed back to where you're like, oh, of course they made these decisions. Like, there was no other option for them. Correct. Or they felt there was no other option for them. Felt there was no other option to them.

And I thought, you know, like, I'm going to give like another shout to Genji, what I thought was always like the brilliance of that show was bringing in this fish out of water story of someone who we could all explain as viewers, the mistake. It was an obvious, quote unquote, she made a mistake, even though she willingly went into the practice of mulling drugs. you know, like, but because of her background, her relatability to us, we could understand it.

And then I thought it was so genius, these people who we actually imagined to be so distant from us. Perhaps actually their circumstance is an act true mistake. They actually weren't afforded the same opportunities, and we can better understand how, how unfortunately you got here versus somebody who had every opportunity and perhaps even chose to end up here. I thought that was the genius work happening there, that our biases, our ideas of what a person, an imprisoned person looks like and is deserving to be somewhere really looks like.

And you can take away imprisoned and say anyone's struggling with whatever it is, I can have a better understanding of what their circumstances are or empathy that, but for this, I might be in that circumstance. That's correct. How did the show blowing up like when did that happen for you? Like all of a sudden, when did you realize like,

you were made a regular second season? Is that right? I was made a regular second season. We were shooting it as season one came out. And, you know, Miami, you can speak to the experience. You know, in your very long and robust career that you've been in this business, you know, like what that feels like. My experience was I was coming into the streaming space where,

people watch the whole show in a weekend. And you went from like Friday. You follow the ratings every week. No, like, I'm at Trader Joe's on Friday. And then like Monday on the subway, I'm like, what is happening? Like, what's going? You know what I mean?

Like, what just happened? And that happened. I was on a mountain in Sundance for the theater institute that they do in the summer. And we had no service down at base camp when we're rehearsing and doing work. Only had service up in the theater. the cabins where we were staying.

And so whatever, I would go, I just remember, I would go up to the cabin. And as I would be walking up the mountain, because everybody just walked, because it was so gorgeous, you know, you're getting closer and closer to Wi-Fi. And, like, all of a sudden my phone would be like, bloop, blu-loop, blu-loop, blu-blis. And it's like, you have 500 new followers. And I was like, it must have been from that sassy, well-crafted tweet from last night that I And it's like, no, because I just watched Orange and Be Black. Like, it took a minute to make that connection, you know.

But it was wild. It was totally wild. And that just kept happening with each season, you know, because it's not, oh, this week we watched these, you know, four episodes. It's like, you saw the whole thing. People are totally invested now. And they feel like they know that character so well because, they were with you for 12 hours.

I mean, to kind of take it back to, you know, your book and this kind of thread of your mother's belief in you and, you know, I'm thinking back to the first teacher, you know, like the drama teacher, and then like, you know, just like how all these people kind of giving you pointers and a road. Yeah, yeah. I mean, for lack of a better metaphor.

Yeah. You know, a road to kind of follow. What did it feel like to have that kind of success? Did it feel like I knew it? Did it feel like I was wrong and someone else was right? Did it feel like this is luck? This is destiny. What was the reaction from your mom?

Like what in your whole family? Honestly, there was a huge part of me that felt like I had fulfilled the dreams of all of my parents, like my parents, of my mom specifically that I had. matched the sacrifice, you know, because my parents, you know, we come from a very, very humble beginning. And they gave up a lot. My mom gave up a lot for me and my siblings, you know, to go to college, to go to do all of this, you know, like just to have a roof over our heads.

Yeah, a roof over our head, you know, food on the table. And she would say all the time, she's like, you know, my American dream is for you people to be able to live your dream. And she worried about me a lot because I wasn't, you know, I was hustling in New York, like barely making my rent, barely having food in my fridge, you know, like eating pre-mail for everybody who's weighted tables, you know, like that's always getting by and worried, like, is this going to work out? And it just was such a satisfying thing to know that she had peace of mind, you know, like, maybe this is going to work out. You know, and that was gradual because, like, definitely the first season came. She's like, oh, it's all same dot money. Like, you don't know whether, you don't know.

Like, I think time moved a little bit where it's like, oh, maybe she is going to be able to make her rent next month. Or maybe she's going to be able to, you know, buy herself some dinner tonight. And I'm not going to have to. She prayed for me every day, every single day. Every single day. I have her journal to talk about it in the book. You know, my mom and I kept journals since we're kids, both of us. I have boxes of them in, of mine, you know.

And after my mom, she passed away. After she passed away, before she passed away, she told me to take the journals, you know, and read them all, and she had boxes and boxes. And I've only been able to start one because it's like such a treasure in the most valuable thing I own, frankly, in my opinion. And like, repeatedly, you guys, it's like her prank. for me.

Your siblings also or just just me? Let's be clear. The artist. Just me. Is there any other siblings? She had pretty powerful prayers. But it's like, I'm praying for those.

She's like, I'm praying for those. She's like, I really hope life stabilizes for her. You know, like just praying for, you know, every time we talk on the phone, I talk to my mom every day, she'd be like, you know, and I prayed for you last night. And I know God is going to, you know, find a way. So a lot of it I owe to her silent and loud prayers. How long had you been, how long after you graduated before you quit and then got those two jobs?

Seven years? No, eight years, eight years, eight years. That's an intense time period to, I mean, there's a lot of stories of people hustling like that. But the level of prayer and just, just, you know, unknown, an uncertainty that comes with that is no small pressure. Yeah. I wonder you've talked about sort of when you sort of became a high profile person, that that was a time when you tried therapy,

meaning when you sort of engaged in looking at that part of you, right, that we often only look at in therapist's offices. What were some of the things that, because, you know, I think there's a real universality into what you're talking about. Not everybody gets on a TV show and, like, is famous over the weekend. But, you know, people have experiences where things happen that they're not expecting, where they're learning about aspects of themselves or other people's perceptions of them that can feel really, you know, incongruous. What were you delving into? And what was helpful about that? I think, you know, you ask a question of confidence.

I'm still grappling with being seen. Strangely, like, I work in a profession where the... Look at me, but only when I tell you. Exactly, exactly. Kind of, yeah. Like, I was comfortable with the idea of being seen on stage, being seen on camera, being seen on carpet. was and still am extremely uncomfortable with being seen in any other space.

Like any other space outside of, like I want the work to be seen, not me to be seen. And I'm paying a lot of money to figure out what that's about. I mean, generally speaking, what is it about? I mean, sure. I'm sure it ties back, you know, I'm talking in my book, The Road is Good,

about their approach. parts where I'm talking about, you know, like we had a lot, my younger brother, my younger brother sister and I, after the path was paved, the feeling like you had to be a model minority, you know, of never messing up, making sure you're doing. If you mess up, it's like, oh, look at that. Correct. And not wanting to stand out at times because that thing that makes you stand out your race, your culture and gender.

depending on the room, are not positives in some people's eyes. And so it's better to just keep your head low and do X, Y, and Z. And my mom was constantly pushing our chin up to be like, no, no, no, no, no. You are not meant to bury and to hide. But that wrestling, that maybe it's safer, maybe it's easier. Maybe that kid's not going to call me the N-word again if I can just get done what I need to get done here. I'm sure that is in that unpacking, you know, thank you for this.

I am. We've done that good work today. No, but I think it's interesting. I'm supposed to have therapy today. I missed it. No, but I think it's also true, I think especially as women, like we're often on display. Yeah. You know, for other people's gaze and for other people's view.

And it is different, you know. And yes, it's hard for men. And I, you know, we talk about that a lot as well. but for women in particular, there's a history behind sort of what purpose we serve. That's right. And I think especially something

that's interesting in your career, the role that you played in Orange is the New Black didn't have to be sexy, gorgeous, ingenue. That wasn't the focus of her identity and all those characters were so nuanced. And that's missing from a lot of the ways that women are portrayed. And so I think that's also like something

really delicate, but it is about how am I seen, you know, how to people, and then also I was, I would always think about you when I would see you on the carpet. Or when I would see you in publicity because you're gorgeous. Thank you. And also like, it's almost like that has to,

no, but it's almost like, oh, she plays this character, but then how much do we have to compete to show, I'm not that person, right? I can get all Phippuzt is the Yiddish word. You know, like, I can, and it's also like, what is the moniker in our car? culture, right, that you have to sort of prove, right? I can play both sides of it.

I can be this person and my character doesn't wear makeup, but what do I look like when I'm on the carpet? And I had this from Big Bang. Like, I was this character who like barely wore makeup. You know, for most of my time, like, no extensions. And like, you know, I'd have hair. A lot of heavy sweaters. A lot of layers.

And I would have, you know, when a new hair person would come in and they're like, do you want to like a weave? And I'm like, no, I think they actually like me. Yeah, yeah. Just my thin, scraggling. hair, you know, because that's a character, right? But then when you go on the carpet, you pay a lot of money to a stylist who's like, we got to show them, you can really compete. And like, let's show you got tits under there, you know? It's like all this stuff. And it's like, it's weird. But I think

that does play into a lot of this. How are we seen? You know, it's a lot for therapists. I think, no, I think that's definitely true too. You know, I grew in a place where, you know, the idea, the sign of beauty was blonde hair, blue eyes. And I know I definitely internalize. Yeah, and I definitely internalize the idea that then the antithesis must be ugly. And it's so funny because I've actually been like scrolling through photos that my sister, I don't know if you guys like Time Hop shop, but shout out to the app Time Hop with Hope it's not controversial. Um, but it's like, like, where they like give you memories of photos in your photo roll. And she's like sending me pictures of myself, Like when younger, who was a beautiful girl who I used to beat up and feel so outside?

And I'm like, yeah, I think that's a part of it. You make a very, very valid and fair point of like, okay, if I'm not that thing, then maybe don't look at me to tell me I'm not that thing. I already know I'm not blonde and blue light. You know what I mean? Like, let's all move on, you know, and let Ashley have her moment or whatever, you know. Ashley spelled E-I-G-O-U-X. So specific.

Should we stop here? Discuss? No. You know, like that sort of thing. But what I do know and what this side of this business has done for me from a confidence perspective is it has made me believe that I am enough. That whatever idea I had out. here before drumming in the brain is not true that to change myself and my lips and my gap

and the shade of my skin or my name. Your hair. I mean, anything. I can do, I can wear a prosthetic if I want to for a part. That's fine. But I don't need to close my gap. It's beautiful. It's enough. Your husband has one too. Yeah. I want to know if the baby was born with one. She doesn't have those teeth, yeah. I just had this image of like your newborn baby. Full teeth, gap. Well, that would be terrifying. But for other reasons.

Yeah. Full 32. I've actually heard of folklore that it's good luck in it is a... A baby's being bored with teeth? No. Terrifying. Like, what are you about to say? No, the gap that it is actually good luck.

And I have to check. my sources here, but I think it's like signifies like a special, a specialness, a special ability. I'll take it. Well, listen, this is where I live with that now. My mother used to tell me all the time as a kid. She's like, don't you know in Africa? Because I wanted to close this gap so badly, y'all. She was like, don't you know in Africa? A gap is a sign of beauty. She was like, in my family, everyone, we call it Ainuoku. That's my mother's maiden name. Gap. Everyone has it. I'm one of a few who don't. She pray for it. Pray for it.

And she was like, don't close it. It's a sign of beauty. I was like, we don't live in Africa. We live in Medfield, Massachusetts. I'm done with this conversation. But it's like, as you get older, you realize these ideas that are told to us, they're not real. What do you know? I know I'm beautiful.

I know my teeth are great. And here's what else. My older, excuse me, my younger sister, Chi-Chi, who has bone straight, perfect, natural teeth, because she would hear my mother say that all the time. She wanted it. She wanted a gap. So it's like beauty is relative. It's perspective.

It's what you really feel about yourself at the end of the day. I feel beautiful. My husband thinks I'm gorgeous. I know I am. That's all I need to know. I'm curious about your experience of intuition. Intuition. Do you feel there's a kind of, I'm going somewhere here.

Do you feel like you have strong intuition? Like you feel guided, you know, towards any particular direction? I think I have a, good gut. I think, I don't know if I necessarily say guided, but what I do know is almost every time I have not followed my intuition or my gut, it has never worked out. Like, when I have just... Wait, hold on, it's two negatives. Say it again? It has... When I have not followed... Okay. When you've had an intuition, but you didn't follow it. And I didn't follow it, those things did not go well.

they did not it is double negative but it does no but it's like they did not go well like you know like I do know that that it's like

even if it doesn't seem to make sense to anybody else but me do that thing and then it's always kind of like been like oh well that didn't actually go the right way

I've had that experience and in the negative I've had the experience where my gut is like don't do this thing it doesn't feel right it's not going to and the logical brain is like,

well, but all this seems reasonable and that seems reasonable. Here we are five years later. Because there are factors that are obviously, or often unseen that we can't figure out. I'm curious how you reconciled your quitting moment in light of the success that came, you know, literally that afternoon.

do you think those messages were frustration? Were they? Though you've tried this 100 times, how many ways do you need to be told this isn't working for you? Go back to law school. Or like the anticipatory nature of like as we get so close to our goal, sometimes that part of us that may have been being dragged along by faith that maybe kind of wasn't so sure,

kind of rears its head one more time. Like how do you reconcile like what you were being told by? what it sounded like was intuition, but clearly may have not been sort of the highest intuition. Okay, so since we've talked about faith a lot, and I am a believer in a higher source, I will more properly contextualize that moment.

Can I go there? Yeah, please. Okay, so... We already went there in our head. We're just waiting for you to come along. Okay, okay. I believe that moment was really for me to know that God is real and that it will all be okay.

Follow me here. It's going to be, take us a journey. The road is good. The road is good. I prayed that surrender prayer. I had prayed it days earlier with one of my dear friend, Celise, who had sent it to me to pray. And I had been like, yes, I surrender

to getting blue bloods. You know, like, this is, I didn't really surrender. That day on the train, I surrendered. I came home. I talk about this in the book. I said, I came home with me. I'm like, I don't like about this in the book. I was like, I came home.

I loved this show called Oprah's Masterclass. I don't know if you guys have brought, right? And Lauren Michaels is on. I had this episode to save forever. That's SNL's executive producer. Yep. And I hadn't watched it for so long. Like I kept skipping it, no shade, Lorne Michaels. But like, I was just kept skipping it moving to some reason I get home. I was like, let me watch that Lorne Michaels one. And he's talking about starting SNL. And he's saying something about like some bees sketch that, I don't know, kept like not doing well. Yeah. You were a gay bee. Would you be attracted to me? I know exactly the sketch. I don't know. And it had like flopped. That's amazing. You know that. Really? Pulled that one out.

Some B-sketched. And, like, how the show was flopping. And, like, he was like, I decided, he says on the TV, he said, I decided to give it one more go. And this is what I see on TV, he says. And I thought that if I could just keep the faith and the screen dissolved, they're in those confessinals, the image dissolved, the words, keep the faith, scrolled across the bottom of the screen.

It turns into like what looks like The only way I can describe it as like a country time lemonade commercial This guy has all these like purples and reds and oranges, whatever is big tree There's a window on a house to the left It almost feels like it smells like food Something's baking. Keep the face runs across the screen. I said, oh, I like that

When this is over, I'm going to rewind back to this part. Pause it. Take a picture and tweet. It. This is why I know exactly what time it was. 543. And the phone rang and I got the call. I went back like a week later because I got all excited. My sushi wine party turns into like a celebration party.

My sister and I were like eating the sushi. We're crushing wine. You know, like a week later, I'm like, oh, I never took a picture of that. Keep the faith thing. Like, I'm going to take a picture now. I go back. Not there. Stop.

True story. Stop. Not there. Spooky. Not there. And I was like, I know what I saw. You cannot tell me. You were not on the drugs. I was not on the drugs. I hadn't even started the wine yet. I was like, I know what I saw. And it made me say, I knew God was real, but now I know God is real. And why is that significant? because in the hardest moment in my life that I didn't know was going to come eight years later

when I'm sitting in a hospital listening to a cancer diagnosis that's telling me ultimately where this road is leading. I know now that God is real. And like in that moment, like I said, I knew God was real, I knew everything was going to be okay. hey, I knew as hard as it was to know this,

that everything supremely is going to be okay, even if I could never have imagined this. I needed that in, I needed to know something to cling to for me. And there's two components of that that makes me think of. The first is that, you know, obviously God or a power of greater, than yourself is important to rely on when you are in the narrows, as we say, you know, when things are difficult. But, you know, you won't have a conversation. There's no one to have a conversation with if you haven't practiced in times when it wasn't like that. Right? So they say that

practicing a conversation or a relationship with something greater than yourself when you're not in a dire situation is building the relationship so that if you get to a point where you are struggling, already know how to reach out. That's it. You know where to turn, right? If it's the first time you're trying, you're going to be like, what, where, this is not a thing. Yes. But if it's like, oh, this is, I talk to this being.

I understand this power, right? I can turn to that. And the other thing I thought of is, I want you to clarify, and I know just from, in particular, also your mother's wisdom and sort of what, you know, you've woven into your life, the notion is not that God is waiting to give everyone their fairy godmother wish. The notion is not like, you got the job, thanks God. It's not, I call that like the gumball machine, you know, religion, which like, you know, like if I put this in, I get what I want,

get the parking spot I want, you know, which is great. If you pray for a parking spot and you get it, I'm happy for you. But what you're saying is there's a larger understanding of comfort, faith, goodness, and okayness. So that even if your mother gets pancreatic cancer, right? And also that her faith sustained her through that, Like that's the ultimate larger lesson, that okay is something that in God's language, we can't even understand. Correct. I mean, I remember before they came in to give that diagnosis, a chaplain came in and said, somebody asked her prayer and we're like, nobody did.

But they're like, would you like it? And we're like, okay. And she looks at my mom and says, what would you? A lady chaplain? Yes. And she said, what would you like me to pray for? And she said, that God, God's will be done. Not mine. And we were like, uh, no, for no cancer. Uh, time out. She doesn't know what she's saying. Like that's not for God's well.

Like that's like, you know. But that piece beyond all understanding, you can have that in that moment. And you can, you have something to your point to reach for in your back pocket when that moment comes. which I'm so thankful she had. I'm thankful I had. And Anne can return to it. You know, we had, me and God were fighting for a little bit there when this all went down because I couldn't believe.

I didn't know that I thought my mom was a god, small G. I didn't know that she could leave this earth. I really, really genuinely did not know. And was like blown away by the prospect of it. Of mortality. Yeah. And I couldn't believe that my God would take the most personal and important person away from me in this life. All of my greatest moments in my life full stop for that point had involved her.

Our life together, not my life, not my life in this work, our life together. So we were boxing for a while there, God and I. We found our way back, the birth of my daughter, my marriage, and then the birth of my daughter. daughter. It was like joy, something that I didn't even know that I had in spades. I don't know that word. Joy, joy, like a fountain that I hadn't known that I'd had in spades before I felt left my being. And now I feel it like coming back and so alive, rip roaring alive, again, because it is all okay. You know? Like, here she is.

Adeba, my daughter. Daughter of the kingdom, which makes her the daughter of the people. You know, here she is. This amazing you all, you know you have life in this world. It's like there is more to the story than what I thought was the end of the story, frankly. Is your husband a man of faith? He is. Is he also Nigerian?

He is not. Okay. He's not. He's half black American, half Bahamian. I'm just, we're, we're so appreciative for you sharing, I mean, so much about your acting life and your history, but also sharing this beautiful book. This is an advanced copy, so don't be jealous that I have this cover. The book is The Road is Good, how a mother's strength became a daughter's purpose. And really, you're a real, you know, real testament to what you were raised in, you know, it's really,

it's really beautiful. And I kind of wish I could know all your siblings, too, because I know that you're amazing. and you know, and you have a notoriety that obviously now carries your name in, you know, other realms all over the world. But I also know with the way that your mother raised you, that is resonant no matter what any of you do, don't do. You know, it's really, really special and so grateful that you're sharing it with so many people and also with us today. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This was awesome. Thank you.

Truly awesome. Yeah, really. You're also very, like, normal. I hope so. I mean, I'm sure you have your moments. Like, we all do. But I don't know. I mean, like, I'm so used to meeting people

who've been, like, raised in the industry and they have a very, everything's very, like, guarded and special. And, like, it's so amazing. And it's just really nice, you know, you just talk like a person. Yeah, we're just all people out here in this world trying to do the gig.

You know what I mean? Of life. Yes. Thank you for having me. This was awesome. When she was talking about the Lauren Michaels interview moment, what I thought was, it sounds like she's on drugs. Yeah.

She had a transcendental experience. My question is, if I was sitting next to her, would I have been watching the same thing on TV, or was it literally her imagination that experienced that? Like, was there any objective? I don't think there was anything objective. I think that she had, yeah, she had a kind of out-of-body, you know. Visualization.

Visualization. I mean, if she would have shown up at a hospital. they probably would have been like, you're schizophrenic. We're putting you on medicine, right? Like, I don't know. It was very specific. Like, you know, the detail with which she remembered it is really fascinating. But it did. It sounded like she was on drugs or having a transcendental experience. And, you know, I love that notion of like, what does it mean to keep the faith, you know? I feel like we need to take a break from this podcast, research country time lemonade commercials. See if any countrytime lemonade commercials could have possibly existed in that era that had that

message. I don't think so. You mean, you mean like, could there been a corruption? Could you have been pulling something up in her mind that she had actually seen? No, I don't think so. I just looked up country time lemonade keep the faith. Nothing comes up. That's on an exhaustive search. I'm just wondering, like, could she have scrolled back to the point in the episode that she thought that the commercial was and she had DVR and maybe there's dynamic ad programming in the DVR. so that they replaced the ads when she actually went back because they saw it. Maybe not.

I don't know that technology exists at that time. Like, I'm not doubting that she had that experience. I'm just wondering the mechanisms by which that experience happened. You know what? I liked that it felt like we were learning something that she doesn't normally share with a lot of people. It made you feel special. It made us feel special.

But it also made me feel like she felt safe to reveal like kind of a special aspect of this story, which like a lot of the story is like, I quit acting and I was going to like tell my whole family, but then I got the job. Like that's amazing enough. Like just that kind of, you know, synchronicity. But the fact that there was like this whole other moment. She wasn't going to tell us that.

We got to the end of the interview. We got it out of her. Fetched it out of her. How many times do you think she said, yes, I quit acting just this one time? We might be the only people who know that story. And now all of you listening. Maybe I get a little kudos for getting us that. Kudos for getting us there, Jonathan.

There you go. And kudos to all of you for listening. And make sure you subscribe. It's really important to us that we know that you're out there. We know you're listening. We know you're watching. But please subscribe on our YouTube channel. Hit the little bell icon so you can know when new episodes drop.

And also make sure you subscribe wherever you get podcasts, like Spotify or really anywhere. If you have had a transcendental experience without drugs where God has given you a message, let us know about it. Especially if it's of the country time lemonade variety. Maybe you've seen that commercial. Also share the link. From our breakdown to the one we hope you never have. We'll see you next time.

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