Media Storm - LIVE SHOW Comedy, 'cancellation', and correctness - with Deborah Frances-White and Isabelle Farah

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

Coming to you from the London Podcast Festival: The Guilty Feminist presents Media Storm’s debut show, live from King’s Place! Presented by journalists Mathilda Mallinson and Helena Wadia, Media Storm is a news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. From migrants to sex workers, trans to indigenous people, convicted criminals to Romani communities— Media Storm puts people with lived experience at the centre of their stories. In this bonus episode, Mathilda and Helena welcome comedians Deborah Frances-White and Isabelle Farah to discuss comedy's cultural power, comedians getting 'cancelled', and if and when jokes can go 'too far'... For more information on The Guilty Feminist and other episodes: visit https://www.guiltyfeminist.com tweet us https://www.twitter.com/guiltfempod like our Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/guiltyfeminist check out our Instagram https://www.instagram.com/theguiltyfeminist or join our mailing list http://www.eepurl.com/bRfSPT For more information on Media Storm: Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/mediastormpod or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/mediastormpod or Tiktok https://www.tiktok.com/@mediastormpod like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/MediaStormPod send us an email [e-mail] check out our website https://mediastormpodcast.com Media Storm is brought to you by the house of The Guilty Feminist and is part of the Acast Creator Network. The Guilty Feminist theme by Mark Hodge and produced by Nick Sheldon. Photo by Viktor Erik Emanuel/Kings Place Media Storm music by Samfire (@soundofsamfire) Thank you to our amazing Patreon supporters. To support the podcast yourself, go to https://www.patreon.com/guiltyfeminist Become a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/media-storm. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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The Hulu original series Murdoch Death and the Family dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. Watch the Hulu original series Murdoch Death in the Family, streaming October 15th on Disney Plus. Welcome back to MediaStorm, live at the London Podcast Festival, Kings Place London. Now, MediaStorm is a news and current affairs podcast, but so often when we're doing our episodes, we find ourselves talking about the wider media, be that films, TV shows, music, etc. And an example of that would be our episode. episode, which was about sexual health and STIs, much to my parents' mortification.

We had a script editor from the Netflix series Sex Education to come on and talk about how much of a role the wider media and pop culture does play in shaping our attitudes, our behaviours on these subjects. And on that note, a huge part of the wider media that we often find ourselves referencing is comedy stand-up, comedy podcasts, various comedy shows. and you can really communicate such a huge amount through laughter. So that's what we're going to talk about today, the cultural power and responsibility of comedy,

so-called cancellation, and when, if ever, jokes go too far. So it's time to bring on our guess. Our first guess is a comedian and writer who is gigged across the UK and internationally. Her show, Elypsis, enjoyed a sell-out run at the Edinburgh Fringe last year, transferred to the Soho Theatre here in London, then bought it, she brought it back up to the fringe this year,

along with another show called Irresponsible. That's right, one woman, two shows. Everyone, welcome to the stage, Isabel Farrah. Here she is. Hi, hello. How are we recovering from the fringe? It's been one a month now. Not recovered at all.

Definitely still, oh no. Just about, I think physically I'm just about there. I'm still kind of like getting out of like fight or flight mode, which I feel like I spent the whole month. like just going like flyers posting social media and then you're like okay right I don't need to do any of that anymore ever again just back to pictures of my food our second guess I'll second guess

where's many hats comedian screenwriter podcaster you may have seen her on TV you might know her little known podcast the guilty feminist which yes is the driving force behind media storm please welcome to the stage the OG guilty feminist Deborah Francis White You've practically been living at King's Place for the last week or so. How have your shows gone? Very, very well.

We did a mash-up episode with Brown Girls Do It 2 called Brown Guilty Feminist Do It 2 or Brown Guilty Feminist. I don't know. That was an eye-opener because I banished my producer slash husband from the building and said he wasn't allowed to listen to the end. it so I could speak freely about sex. If you don't know brown girls do it too is about sex. And they are just so frank.

And I wanted to have a go at that and not going, oh my God, it's so embarrassing to talk about. So I thought, no, I want to be like them. And so I talked frankly about sex in this building. And it was, I have to say, very liberating. Love it. Yeah, listen to the episode, my husband will not be.

He has promised me, if you see him, don't ask, don't help. Well, let's kick off, shall we? Okay, so comedy and news, they so often merge. We saw this most recently when comedian Joe Leicitt went on BBC's Sunday with Laura Coonsberg. We're going to play the clip because I tried to explain it in a practice and it didn't really work. So we're just going to play the clip. What did you make of it now have you calmed down?

She has to go from the campaign to the country. But tell us honestly what you thought. Well, so you said earlier that I'm not left or right. I'm actually, I know that there's been criticism in the mail on Sunday today about lefty, liberal, wokey comedians on the BBC. I'm actually very right wing and I loved it. I thought she was very clear. She gave great clear answers. I know exactly what she's up to.

And I think she's, most people watching at home who are worried about their bills are going to feel. There's a serious point, Joe, forgive. I'm not being sarcastic. She said that there was a big package of help coming this week for people to help pay their bills. She was very clear what she said. And I think you know exactly what's going to happen. And I think, you're reassured, I'm reassured. I think, you know, the haters will say that you've had 12 years of the Tories

and that we're sort of at the dregs of what they've got available and that Liz Trust is sort of like the backwash of the available MPs. I wouldn't say that because I'm incredibly right-wing. But some people might say that. But the consensus, though, in politics is often wrong, right? It's often wrong and we often don't know what is going to pan out. Yeah. Well, as Liz said there, she said it would be wrong.

to predict the future, even though loads of people have predicted that we're going to have real issues with paying our energy bills. But, you know, I think she's right to just then just sort of basically say, well, let's not predict and see what happens next week. I think she did the right thing there. Well, there's a lot of laughter here. But there wasn't in Parliament. There wasn't in Parliament.

Yeah, you know, an MP got found this so seriously offensive. It was actually raised in Parliament, like the issue of. comedians being on politics shows was actually raised in Parliament. Was this a good way of pointing out the failing, the certain failings that could have been there in Liz Truss's plan? Or, you know, is there a time and a place for comedy? I think it was perfect. So I think it was absolutely, like, pitched completely correctly.

Also, I can't believe British people are complaining about someone going on TV and being sarcastic. Like, I'm sure, like, if you wanted a serious political opinion, why did you invite Joe Lyset on? I'm not saying he's not a serious, like, political commentator, but he clearly has got some incredible points to make. But if you wanted someone like an economist or someone who really, like, seriously is going to look at the cost of living prices, then get them on, fine. But they probably put him on as probably a little bit, to an extent, the fluff, who wasn't going to make a serious point, or maybe didn't have the facts and figures to go back. it up but he did exactly what he does perfectly so yeah it was an unfunny answer to it but yeah no I think it was but there's a time and a place for comedy right yeah I agree because my experience of going on any kind of show where you're asked your opinion is to be so taken down that you can get

quite wound up as a comedian and particularly I think I get asked on shows to be Mary White House. If young people, you may not know who Mary White House is. So in the 80s, there was a self-styled... I mean, she identified as a housewife, just to be clear. That was her self-identification, so it's not for me to undermine that. But she got whipped up about increasing sexual content on the television. and she was basically banned this filth.

And at that time, anybody who was trying to censor was seen to be automatically right-wing. And so I find the BBC often call me up and they say, okay, here's one that I got. There's going to be a Benny Hill fun run. If you're very young and you don't know who Benny Hill is, this has all got to take a long time. He was a comedian from the 70s

who ran around lustfully after young women in bikinis. And you'll know his theme tune, which is, da-da-da-da-da-da-la, and it was always in fast motion. So the Benny Hill fun run was, the idea was women would run around in bikinis and high heels, and men would dress up like Benny Hill and run after them. And they'd all raise... Wait, is this serious?

Yeah. And they'd all raise money for their charity while the theme tune played. Now, this was like, this was like just before the pandemic. This is recent. And so people, so I got so many, because I got a call from every arm of the BBC

going, will you come on and what do you think this is doing for feminism? Is this right? And they, I got constant phone because I was like,

yes, it's me again. Yes, Benny Hill Funrun, I've heard, yeah. They all wanted me to come on and be Mary Whitehouse and say, ban this filth. And my response to all of them

was, you don't understand, I'm a generation X, stand-up comedian. not for censorship. And they keep trying to back me into a corner where I say, we shouldn't have these things. And I'm like, if people, what do you want me to say? They're like, we want you to say, we've got some right-wing men's rights activist on. And we want you to say, this is horrendous.

And I'm like, look, at the end of the day, if people want to put on bikinis and run around in a park, is that doing a lot for the sisterhood? Obviously not. However, if that's their choice. And I don't think it's doing a terrible thing either. It's just some women in bikinis running around a park. And we are now in a point of feminism where we must celebrate our bodies or at least accept them and be happy to put them on display of that's our thing.

So I'm just like, I don't want to spend all my time asking for people to put clothes on. And I just, it's just, it's just not what I'm riled about. I feel like when I go on those shows, they're trying to get me to get whipped up into a frenzy. So if I were backed into a corner about the Benny Hill fun run, I might do the same. I might go, you know, I might go, well, when's it on? Because I've actually got a lush new bikini. And I, listen, listen, Benny Hill, what a legend. You know, I might do that because it would piss them off

because they're wanting me to get very upset about, I'm like, what does it matter? Like, seriously, with the way climate changes, we'll all be under water in 10 years, is this our biggest concern? That is interesting. And maybe what the Benny Hill anecdote communicates is that some things that are funny one day

and normal one day, tomorrow might be seen as less funny and less normal. or maybe more funny because they were once seen as appropriate. And this is something that comes up in the conversation around comedy and correctness a lot is this idea that you can't say anything anymore or that that joke wouldn't, you wouldn't get away with it these days. And the implication there is that maybe it's unfair to retrospectively deem something inappropriate

when times have changed. But perhaps another way of looking at it is was it ever actually okay? And what is coming to my mind right now is I'm re-watching, for nostalgic reasons, how I met your mother, which was this naughty's sitcom, right? Me and my brother used to watch it late at night, and we found it hilarious. And I don't remember ever, I don't remember thinking that it was inappropriate. Yeah, or a horror show. Barney Simpson, he's a character whose comedic profile is based off ever more creative ways of sexually manipulative. In one episode, he dresses up as your stereotypical lesbian woman so that he can dupe a gay

woman to sleeping with him. In another episode, he brags about filming hundreds of women having sex without their permission. And then he says, I think at one point I actually sold a woman. I didn't speak the language, but I shook a guy's hand. He gave me the keys to a Mercedes and I left her there. And then the tape goes, ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah. Was that ever okay? Did women who have experienced sexual trauma ever think that was okay? Did Chinese people watching it ever think it was okay when the all-white cast dressed up as Chinese people and put on very heavy accents? Did plus-size people ever think it was okay when Ted, the main guy, breaks up with the woman he's dating because she used to be fat and he's grossed out by this? was it ever okay or do we just have more exposure now

to minority voices weighing in on the cultural conversation? No, it was always structurally violent. It was, it was, I just saw an incredible show by Grace Petrie. Some of you will know her protesting and his show is called Butchado About Nothing. It was in Edinburgh. I don't know if you saw it. Absolutely incredible. And she tells the story.

She says for her growing up in the 90s, she said it was. wasn't so much being gay, which her parents were accepting of, it was being butch. And she tells the story of watching every bit of lesbian content. The lesbians on the screen, the rare events, they were always very femme. And she said, so the first lesbian wedding was Ross's ex-wife on friends. And she said, but I watched these two beautiful femme women, or beautiful in the eyes of the patriarchy, you know, femme women, married. And she said as a butch, young butch person, I didn't see myself represented until

there's a butch lesbian who comes up at the wedding and asks Phoebe to dance and everybody laughs. And she said the entire joke is that someone like that would dare ask Phoebe to dance. And Phoebe, I recently rewatched it, having heard about it. And Phoebe says, oh yeah, that'd be real. She says, do you want to go and get a drink or something? And she says, oh, yeah, that'll be really lovely. And Phoebe clearly doesn't. understand that this woman is actually asking her out in a romantic way. And she said as a kid, she said, it broke my heart because I was like, I'm never going to be able to ask a girl out or to dance. Everyone will laugh. The impact of that is I never even noticed that. Never even.

I was thinking, well, it's really great that before gay marriages or equal marriage was elite was even legal in any part of America. They were showing this, what was effectively must have been a commitment ceremony, that's a big step forward. But I'm not, if you're not in that position, you don't know what a punch in the stomach it is. It's tough with older stuff because then

I grew up with Little Britain and I remember quoting it obsessively at school. And I think, I'm not sure how I feel about them taking it off light, like off air and I think there is a conversation to be had about stuff that was made before or like in the before times. I don't know. like 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago,

and just say, like, we can watch this with a critical eye now and just say, actually, I don't, like, you can't do that anymore. And I don't think it was ever acceptable. It's just that the narrative has changed a little bit. It's tough to turn around and just be like, no, let's remove that from Netflix. Let's take it off Iplay. You can never watch it. Do not speak of it.

It's just small Britain forever more. I mean, the past is problematic, but also any request for progress now is the request. for now to be problematic tomorrow. You can't have progress and then go, we want the whole of history to reflect now. Like, it can't. We do have louder minority voices calling it out now,

which is probably why we're more aware of it now. And, you know, we have social media. They have easier outlets. They're far easy outlets to call it out. I think a key example of a louder minority group was when Jimmy Carr's Netflix special was released late last year. In the show, he made a joke, I don't know, a joke when he said, when people talk about the Holocaust, they talk about the tragedy and horror of six million Jewish lives being lost to the Nazi war machine. but they never mentioned the thousands of gypsies that were killed by the Nazis.

No one ever wants to talk about that because no one ever wants to talk about the positives. And this is in a 2020, 2021, that's special I think. And, you know, when actually this media storm was happening about this joke, this line, you know, I was at a family gathering and a lot of people in the older generations of my family are going, it's just a joke, it's a joke. That's what people do on Netflix comedy specials. And a lot of people in the younger generations were going, how is it funny to talk about genocide in that way?

That's not funny. And I kind of thought, I don't know, I feel like the only people who can say whether it's funny or not are people from that community, from the Gypsy Roman traveler community. I think one of the difficulties is that, like, obviously, we can all go, oh, you can decide whether or not that's funny. I think the thing is that if we accept that the narrative

is that you can just make a joke about, a minority group and a whole room of people and a major streaming service aren't going to say, oh, do you know what? I'm not sure we should put that. I think we can probably cut that joke. And it's the fact that that's gone through layers and layers of production

and a whole room and it seems that it's totally acceptable for him to make that joke. And he's not with no question at all. Yeah, and people still, and people go, well, they found it funny in the room. I'm sure there were a number of people who didn't find it funny as well. And it's that it's still totally like,

okay, no one's going to, at some point, say, do you know what? If we've got to cut seven minutes from this special, which they potentially did, let's cut that joke, actually. We don't want this on our service, and it's still, it's perpetuating, like, acceptable racism, which I think that some people in this country do still have about gypsies. And I think that maybe some people did find it funny in the room, but you don't know whether that's nervous laughter or whatever. And I just, I guess, as a corporate responsibility,

I'm not sure whether like Netflix I've ever got a thing where they go no actually we're going to blanket stop that I don't think they do but yeah louder voices sometimes people say well it's just not funny and my

response to that is if it really isn't funny it's not dangerous it's not powerful there is no there's no danger in non-sticky comedy so sometimes I see some new act edge lord

room bump pub and he's doing ghastly disgusting just references about sexual assault and just horrible things Deborah this is very triggering actually I understand has just been at the Edinburgh phrase yeah yeah I feel your pain

and no one's laughing the audience like and he doesn't know how to construct a joke well because it is always a he and let's be honest about who it is and he doesn't know how to construct a joke well and I show no concern for that because none of his jokes

will be later used as hand grenades and missiles. And in fact, whenever young edgy, edge lord comedians chat to me, I say to them, if you're not very good, you don't really need to worry about social responsibility because nobody is going to repeat your jokes. No, they're not like little handy, you know, racist or misogynistic or homophobic,

missiles that can be put out into the world. If you're good, if you're really good and the better you get, the more you have to think how could this, which is just a laugh in the room, it's a shock laugh in the room. I don't think Jimmy Carr cares

either way about Roma people, about travelling people. I don't think he cares about those people. I don't think he knows anybody and I don't think he hates them and I don't think he cares. What he's doing is saying, most the worst thing he can get away with to make people laugh at his bravado.

And he doesn't see that when he releases that stone in his slingshot, as it propels forward and goes over the heads of his audience, he just sees the laugh. Look what I got away with and that thrill and how funny I am to say this shocking thing and to be able to get a laugh from it. He doesn't see that it goes outside the studio, keeps traveling, keeps traveling, and all of the people watching Netflix, hear that as well, and the millions of people around the world that watch it. And then he doesn't see where it lands, because I tell you where it lands, it lands outside a traveling populations camp where some teenage kids whose dads have said, have made slurs about those Roma people and said horrible things about them. Because in this country, Amnesty International have said that the most marginalized group of any group in this country, the group that is suffering the most structural racism, and the group that part of that policing bill was designed to destroy is traveling Roma people.

So those people don't need people shouting out of cars, a version of that joke that makes life significantly worse for them. That is what Jimmy Carr doesn't get. that joke will get repeated because what I've been hearing as well is that these jokes are being thrown around in school playgrounds and it can be really difficult to be a kid from that background and a lot of them because of the bullying will be taken out of school and homeschooled a lot of people might react and be expelled and something that's really sad that came up again and again with people who I interviewed from this background is like oh you know we just we know how to cope because any kid any romanie kid, any Roma kid, is raised, being told by their parents that you just keep who you are inside. You be quiet about where you come from because otherwise people will treat you differently. And that is resulting in a real mental health crisis and a suicide epidemic among youth members

of that community. And so it's not the question, is it funny? It's what does it do in the real world? And if it's a well-constructed joke that surprises you and it does a twist, which is what Jimmy Carr always does, it's Jimmy Carr's jokes that pretty much all constructed the same way. He's great at writing jokes. He writes a really, he writes a really clever joke that makes you laugh because he pulls the rug. So he's really good craftsmen in terms of gags.

And that's why when he chooses to write about people that are already having a structurally violent slash, physically violent experience it adds weight to that camp people who yeah people sitting at home I hate them that joke now becomes part of their arsenal doesn't matter whether he's racist doesn't matter whether Ricky Javas is transphobic because some people are because yeah also like when I started it was a big thing that someone was like

just don't punch down you can always take the piss out of someone who is structurally more privileged than you And so you have to recognize what your place is in that structure and go, right, I can take the piss out of this and I can do this. And it's not like I don't take the piss out of certain things when I'm on stage, but I'm so careful about like certain things and also then just get a few people to check it over and just say like, because I, as a cis woman and also in my 30s, I talk a lot about like dating and things. And I went through with someone who's probably a little bit more literate about trans issues and said, how can I make this a little bit more inclusive just not because I think it was particularly offensive but just to go like okay

how can I make all of this just sound a little bit more nuanced for someone who isn't cis because I can only write from my own experience and I think it just was that joke from Jimmy Carr felt quite cheap like he could have probably written he's a very very skilled writer very skilled comedian and he could have written something

that or you know one minute of material that could have done a million other things but instead it was just like oh did you have to Did you really have to? Isabel, the problem is, how do you punch up if you're on four million pounds a Netflix special and you are asked to play the Prime Minister's

son's birthday party? They're your friends. There is nowhere to punch up because they are not anymore in the position that really gestures were in, which is you're a bit lowly and marginalised and you're like pointing at all of the ridiculousness. That's really what the stand-up comedian

is. Now stand-up comedians are kings and gods. How do they punch up? And therefore they punch in every single erection and they just don't care where it lands. So then really is part of the issue that there is such a significant, there's usually one type of person doing comedy. And I know it has diversified a lot over the last, I don't know, 10-ish years. But is that part of a problem that we usually get those jokes from one certain type of person who's usually a man probably white, probably middle glass. I know that there, I think there are some incredible posh white male comics

that aren't choosing to use their power recklessly. I think that's the case. I do think the push for diversity in comedy and the successful push for diversity in comedy, which we've both been part of, is a

wonderful thing. And it's changing the face of comedy. God, and Edinburgh, I saw some great shows this year. I saw some people with opinions. I saw some people who had different life experiences. I'm very interested in hearing jokes about transitioning from a trans person. So I'm sure it's really funny.

I am not at all interested in hearing jokes about transitioning from a man like Ricky Jervais who is colonial in his comedy. It's like white men going into India, smashing everything up, laughing at turbans, laughing at, isn't this funny the way they do everything? And then going, oh, verandas and pajamas are good, we'll take those home.

Like, fuck off. It's not your place, Ricky Jervais. This is not your world. You don't understand it. You don't have any investment in it. You just think it's funny. You just point and laugh. You're colonial.

What we really want to ask then is can a comedian actually being cancelled? Yeah, and what do you do in this situation? Because Jimmy Carr faced a lot of vicious criticism online and saw himself as having been cancelled. Like Dave Chappelle. had Netflix walkout when his comedy stand up in 2019 made jokes that were pretty nasty about trans people, Chinese people, child abuse, and Netflix ground down, backed him up and he won the Grammy for the best comedy album, but he said that he had been cancelled.

And then when venues do actually cancel, like Helena, what happened with Jerry Saddlewitz, the fringe? Yeah, so I think one of the most recent examples people might point to is that at the fringe this year a community called Jerry Sederwitz had his, he did for doing a two-night show. The second show was cancelled after in his first show there were a lot of complaints about him

using the key word for Richie Zuna and also flashing his penis to the front row of the audience. Which may or may not have been a prostate not prostate, sorry, a prosthetic penis. But yeah, so he was

well the show was cancelled and then there's a fact about that but cancellation looks different to different people like what is it and just a small small little side note Jerry Sadowitz and I have the same PR and apparently his ticket sales for his other venues doubled after that

so I heard that he sold out the whole run around the country I rather wonder if that wasn't a publicity stunt not so cancelled now is he I thought he was a possibly a publicity but this is a thing there is an obvious contradiction of you know people standing up and saying I'm so cancelled to the

on the Netflix stand-up joke like it doesn't exist is it a thing? I don't think because also like the thing is ultimately the venue the venue cancelled him the venue cancelled one performance of his he had one performance and I guess there is the whole thing of like right

well previously you could have said that and got away with it for years and years and years and now suddenly someone has said you know what that's not acceptable in our house and that's that's the line they've taken for better or worse and I don't personally I agree with it but then I see that a lot of people don't agree with it and I absolutely horrified and my PR said to me with it I said what I mean he could have just not said that word and did he really need to get his dick out you know

as questions we all ask ourselves I actually get my dick out the whole way through no but um and my PR was like oh I expect no racism and sex I was in your show then and I was like well yeah I mean yeah like you won't be getting any so but it just feels a little bit I'm sorry it just sounds really whiny to me I'm like I can't say that anymore and my show got capable because I said something racist

and I'm like well all right what would you want like were you expecting not to be we've always not been able to say things anymore this is it's where people are acting like this as a new phenomenon go back and watch some 70s comedy seriously go back and watch love thy neighbor

there's a reason it is not repeated anymore As society progresses and minority groups fight for their rights, fewer and fewer things are available to say about those minority groups that are pejorative. That's always been the case. It's always been the case. If you don't believe that, go back and look at some literature that we don't look at anymore because it's fallen out of the canon because it's fallen out of the canon because it's overly misogynistic. That's always happened. Because art reflects the society it's in. That's just always happened. But now it happens more quickly because we can see this big response on social media. But what I notice is some of these Edge Lord comics,

not to harp on Ricky Jervais, but also to harp on Ricky Jervais, what I don't see Ricky Javis saying is I don't see him using any slurs for gay people, and I don't see him saying anything homophobic. Even though when he was young, that was common in common. comedy and it was popular in comedy. He doesn't do that now because society would, as the majority of society would go, ooh, what he does is he plays with the edge of progress. So where's the progress, where's the progress?

And can I mock that progress before most people have decided, yeah, we don't want to be like that. He's not using, he's not using racist words. So I think these guys are clever. I think it's always been there. It's very generous of you. But I think they're clever about this. They're strategic. They're strategic because they're choosing, because they're not saying anything.

They're not going, oh, they're not going, I just want to be, I think comedy, we should be allowed to say anything. They're not, they're not using, Rick Ljibase is never going to use the N word. He's never going to, he's never going to use a. Jerry Sadavitz is much less successful and much less famous and much less well paid because he does. So actually, what you're kind of saying is it's not just we're making these jokes because freedom of speech. it's and because they're funny it's we are making the jokes that are the brink of unacceptability because that is our brand yes that's all from this series of media storm but we're cooking up some exciting plans for series three so see you in the new year make sure you listen

to the latest episode of the guilty feminist live from Auckland featuring cow Wilson, May Chen and Grace Petrie. And if you want to find out more about what we spoke about in this episode, one of Media Storm's investigations this season looked at the rise in hate, targeting Gypsy, Roma and Traveller people. If you haven't heard it, do go and listen for some lived experience insight into the impact of jokes like Jimmy Cars. Just scroll back on our feed and find our episode, Gypsy Roma Traveller. Why is Prejudice on the Rise? From me and Helena, a very merry Christmas and a happy new year.