Media Storm - Netflix & Chill: Anatomy of a Scandal - with The Guilty Feminist's Deborah Frances-White

Episode Date: April 19, 2022

The episode is hosted by Deborah Frances-White (@DeborahFW) with guests Mathilda Mallinson (@mathildamall) and Helena Wadia (@helenawadia). Get in touch Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/mediastormpod or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/mediastormpod or Tiktok https://www.tiktok.com/@mediastormpod like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/MediaStormPod send us an email [e-mail] check out our website https://mediastormpodcast.com Music by Samfire @soundofsamfire. Artwork by Simba Baylon @simbalenciaga. Media Storm is brought to you by the house of The Guilty Feminist and is part of the Acast Creator Network. Become a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/media-storm. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

While other money managers are holding, Dynamic is hunting. Seeing past the horizon, investing beyond the benchmark, because your money can't grow if it doesn't move. Learn more at dynamic.ca slash active. I'm a feminist, but when I saw Michelle Dockery put that wig on, I realized that's the real reason I wanted to be a human rights parent star. As part of our partnership with Netflix, I have the incredible hosts of media store.

Just freshly nominated for an Ari Award. Don't mean to go on about it, but I can't help myself. Matilda Mallinson and Helena Wadia, joining me today. Morning, Deborah. Hello, Helena, Helena and Matilda. Hello. Hello. Today, we're dissecting the brand spanking new series on Netflix, everyone's talking about it,

that came out on the 15th of April. It's called Anatomy of a Scandal. So think of us as your local book club, Except you don't even have to read a book. You just have to binge a TV show. It's the best day ever. Now, before we get started, this episode contains whopping great spoilers. So please stop right now. Thank you very much. If you haven't watched the series, press pause and come back when you have. We'll be here waiting for you. Also, content warning. This series deals with sexual assault and the word rape will be used. So we just need to warn any listeners. If you haven't listened to you,

yet, but you're thinking, oh, I'll have a little sneaky listen first. This series and this conversation will involve those things. So listen to it when you're in a state to listen to it. It won't be graphic, but it will be there. So Helena and Matilda, I'm a feminist, but I often think, do you know, instead of a comedian and podcaster, I should have been a barrister. I imagine myself as a human rights barrister, obviously, and I often imagine myself as a barrister. Now, my mother also thinks this. But when I watch shows like this,

I realise the real reason I want to be a barrister is because I really want the wig and gown. Really? When Michelle Dockery put that wig on, oh. It's powerful, it's powerful. You're literally dressing up as the patriarchy. It's like drag. But I feel like I'm owning that man's world.

Like they said that women would never do this. And here I am being the best barrister in Britain. You would be a great barrister. I would definitely take you as my barrister. I did think that maybe we should be allowed to have, you know, some slightly nicer wigs, though. Niceer wigs. We being women. Do you know what, though, the older and grungier your wig, the more you're respected

because you have the same wig for your whole career. And a new wig means you're a new barrister. What I would do is early on sort of scuff a bit of boot polish into it. Okay, but what would happen if I came in with like a RuPaul's drag race wig? Oh, I think you'd be asked to leave the court, Helena, and you would be done for contempt of court. I don't think it can be any wig.

I think it has to be a horsehair. Although, is that now with animal rights being on the agenda, do you think they're going to change those to synthetic? At the moment, it's got to be horsehair, hasn't it? If that's the reforms that they're making, if that's where they start when it comes to reforming these court proceedings, I'm going to have a real hussy bit. Well, that's why I'm a feminist, but.

I'm a feminist, but when I saw Michelle Dockery put that wig on, I realised that's the real reason I wanted to be a human rights barrister. Not to mention the robe. Walking down those powerful corridors. Look at me. Yeah. Weielding law with my clothes and my clothes and wig. I'm a feminist, but when I should have been paying attention

to a very important court case, the show. I was just actually thinking, how does Sienna Miller get a hair like that? What? It's perfect in every clip. I'm a feminist, but I think I would be open to opting out of voting in one local election given I'm in a safe seat if I could have Sienna Miller's hair for the rest of my life. I'd be like, like if I knew my vote wasn't going to matter, could I not just, I know women died for my right to vote. However, If you had that... Siena Miller's hair for life.

If you had that hair, you wouldn't want to... You wouldn't want to cover it with a barrister's wig, Deb. Oh, that's true. It's a terrible. I'm a feminist, but I didn't take it for granted, which I definitely should have. That being a Tory MP even makes Rupert Friend unfancible. I'm a feminist and a non-partisan journalist, but... Yes, absolutely. Rupert Friend is a very attractive man, but somehow he's such a good actor.

that he made his character James Whitehouse, oh my God, repellent. It's something about that, you know, that garb of totally entitled privilege that comes with certain public roles that does just act like a bit of a turnoff. That awful thing that when he was with his kids, he would be like, and what do White Housees do? They always come out on top.

It's just gross. Oh, yeah, I was watching that thinking, who are you building your children to be, you know, exactly like you. Like his mum raised him to cheat at Monopoly and she says something. She says something about when Sienna Miller, his wife, talks about issues with him lying and being dishonest. And the mum saying, well, you know, that's useful in politics. And she says it's not lying. It's redirecting attention to more favourable facts.

And you can just see how this kind of uprook. Do you remember that letter that came out from Boris Johnson's, college master at Eton saying that as a kid, like he had a cavalier attitude or he felt like he seems affronted when criticised, I'm reading it now, for what amounts to a gross failure of responsibility and surprised at the same time that he's not appointed captain of the school. Like, why would we not think that those attitudes we give to kids don't materialise in the House of Commons? Well, that's his character.

That's who he still absolutely is. And I think what's played out in an anatomy of a scandal is those same attitudes reflected in the story in the cabinet. I think it's meant to reflect the current state of play. Yeah, I think it is a commentary on a pattern of entitled, privileged, thinking of one rule for them. You know, the show is quite dramatic and it's funny how the House of Commons is portrayed in that same dramatic. almost farcical way, but actually like, that's what it's like in reality. I literally feel the same way when I watch Prime Minister's questions. Like the opera music playing. I just think, like, yeah, that's what it actually is in real life, though? It's like, what is this theatre show? This, like,

farce, this antiquated, weird, posh, old chum nonsense. But, you know, they play it out in a very dramatic way on the show. But that's the reality of it as well. PMQ is literally how I imagine, like, a politics class at Eton School. And it's just they reward such crap comebacks as well. It's just so bad for ego. What this show reminded me of, you know, when it's sort of like staying late and having drinks and bumping into each other in corridors and all of this sort of stuff that leads to this initial affair, it really reminded me of, do you remember the night that the

mace was stolen? You know, there's this big golden, I mean, it's so Harry Potter. It's like there's a big golden orb on a stick. And some MP, young MP, I think protesting about Brexit or something, just stole the mace and ran out. Well, I was at the House of Commons that night and somebody in protest had stolen it and run off with it and there'd been, there was these hijinks. And everyone was like, oh my God, oh my God, what's happening in the chamber? If I was running down the corridors to see the theatre and it was like school laughing about it and being outraged, pearl clutching, but in a kind of. I was enjoying that way.

And then as we walked back, I heard one of the men say to each other. And he looked like he'd never been outside of a public school or the Oxford Union or the Huss Commons. And he said to this other chap, and he was a chap. He said, oh, what's for pud? And he said, oh, I think it's plum pudding or something like that. That was really public school food as well. And I was like, wow.

Like, there is a reason you are out of touch. You've never been anywhere but a room like here, a place like here, high ceilings, beautiful furniture, everything's telling you. you, you're surrounded by marble, statues, ancient portraits. Everything's telling you you're part of history and you're the kind of people that get to make the rules influence and you can make the rules in your favour and you don't know anything about people who aren't like you. And that's how I felt about James Whitehouse.

He and his prime minister buddy, the reason the prime minister always kept giving him favourable positions is he owed him one from uni because a crime had been committed there and there'd been cover-ups between the two of them, and therefore I always owe you, I'll always stand by you, no matter what happens. I think, yeah, what was interesting in the dynamic between the Prime Minister and James Whitehouse in this show is it shows that that backscratching, that what is seen by most people as corruption, is framed in their minds as like honour and like standing by a mate when he's down.

That's the height of morality. So they see that as actually like an act of honour. think that that was a pretty grim reading I got from the show. You know, keep it all in the family. That's all what they do. It's interesting as well because, you know, there was that scene where this kind of, after Sophie Whitehouse finds out that her husband has cheated, but before she finds out that there was an allegation of assault,

this older kind of Tory type says to James and Sophie and says to Sophie's face, oh, boys will be boys. He says something like, oh, once okay, twice, go away. And... Oh, yes. Oh, that's right. And he's, yes, and that was it. He looks at Sophie and he says, like, look, Sophie, the storm's passed.

It's but a school. It's over. But, you know, it's not passed for Sophie. It hasn't even started for Sophie. She hasn't even begun processing that her husband cheated on her, let alone that everyone knows. That's right. That's, I've forgotten about that. It's a really old MP.

and he says my wife said to me once okay twice go away so i only did it the once i was just like oh my god and that's supposed to be reassuring oh my god um yeah that made me laugh i think that boys will be boys alliance is what keeps so much of this kind of terrible behavior acceptable in the house of commons and just acceptable for these kind of privileged people yes it Also reminded me of some people I knew at the Oxford Union, let's be honest. You know I was at Oxford with Matt Hancock. I didn't. Oh, I was wondering how long until Hancock's name is.

Oh, yeah. Well, I thought this was... Because we cannot unsee, try as we might, we cannot unsee that footage or that photo. Matt Hancock. Him and Gina Collar, should I was that her name? Yeah, getting it on in the House of Commons. During a COVID lockdown. And that's the thing.

It's not just, yeah, there's the affair. And then there's the hypocrisy of people in power, breaking laws that they are at the heel of and then expecting to get away with it. Yeah. And actually I thought a lot about Matt Hancock's wife. And you know how we see the political response to something like this isn't, oh God, how do we salvage the family, you know, what's best for the wife, what's best for his kids at this time. It's how do we paper over this from a political perspective? You know, it's the press officer is obviously a very key character here. And it did make me think of, and the way that journalists,

every time Sienna Miller's character leaves the house, she has to face a scrum of journalists shoving cameras in her face, shoving questions in her face. And it was very similar with Matt Hancock's wife. If you were looking at the Daily Mail homepage, it was updating with a new, it was entirely plastered with, with Hancock related stories

and every five minutes there'd be a new article based on just photographers stalking Mrs. Hancock you know she leaves the house puts on a brave face and still picks up the kids from school like she was going to just leave the kids at school

What choice did she have? Either she can sob her way to the school gate or she can get herself together get to the school gate I mean oh and then put her children in the car and go home like those are her option But I think you see that, yeah, the show shows you like rim journalism. Yeah, almost straight away in an absolute scandal.

Like we have a husband confessing to a wife. But he only told her because he got caught and so quickly, Sophie's feelings about her husband having an affair are completely cast aside for fears of his job, his image. Like, she's throwing up in the sink and he's being briefed on how to make sure his life doesn't fall apart. Oh my God. What's the name of the guy that's his... He's like a special advisor

who's running around after him saying that most ghastly things like the kind of things they say in the thick of it that's just completely insensitive to her and also just callous and completely nasty. Chris Clark is the character's name, played by Josh McGuire.

Who was also in cheaters. Yes, he's funny. He's funny. He's very good. He just represents in anatomy of a scandal this kind of need to plaster the cracks, keep everything above board, don't let anyone know the real truth. I mean, he is awful to Sophie Whitehouse, let's be honest.

He is terrible, just no regard for her feelings at all. Do we hate him more because he is so spectacularly and deliberately and callously odious and knows it and enjoys it? Or do we hate more the hypocritical James Whitehouse who pretends to be a good guy and says, oh no, I would never do that. And on the stand, when asked if he's used the expression, Prick-Tees, and he goes, no, I would never do that. It's a presumptuous expression. It's a disgusting expression. I would never use it, but we know that he has. We've seen it. How did you feel when James White House started to come undone? Was there any schadenfreude?

Because in real life, we don't often see people like this go to court. It's very rare. I mean, it hasn't happened in this country for a long time. Like, Partygate apparently fines are going to be given, which means they've broken the law. Which means. means it's criminal, which means the Prime Minister should go because the Prime Minister's not allowed to do anything criminal, but he's not going to. Boris Johnson being questioned by police over Partygate was the first time that the Prime Minister in office has ever been in a situation like that. Yeah, I can see the parallels. Did you get any Schaude and Freud from watching, was there anything sort of exfoliated from

watching James on the stand? Yeah, I think they're like with the perfect aesthetics at the beginning, you know, Sienna Miller's perfect life that we kind of see unravel. But the Schadenfreude is annoyingly. We see things unravel for her and we see things get better for him. And yeah, there is some catharsis in her just blowing it all up at the end. I'm glad that the show gives us that.

But the way it plays out the reality of the court case and how he ends up getting back into cabinet, that feels like the true state of what it would be. Real life, yeah. It felt like that to me too. I think what was interesting about seeing James Whitehouse in court is that I think that he really starts by believing he's done nothing wrong. And then I think as it goes on, he maybe he starts to realize that not all of his actions have been good. Obviously, he never admits that.

But I think you start to see that deep down he maybe realizes. this. And I think that that goes back to kind of what we were saying about these people from these worlds who have lived so privileged and entitled that they feel like they can do anything. Like those scenes where they're partying in the, in the Oxford Liberty's Club, yeah. And, you know, they have grown up in not understanding the nuances of consent. And I think I mean, all the, not even the nuances, Helena. Or the basicness. The big broad strokes, the whole concept of the word no.

We're not talking about any nuance here of I didn't read the signals. She froze. Or, you know, we were both drunk. There was no nuance whatsoever. It was just he cold-bloodedly, absolutely 100% deliberately raped her. Yeah. And there was no, they weren't on a date. There was no, there was nothing.

He just, they were standing up, they were in a quad, she was a virgin, it was cold-blooded and it was horrible. And I don't know, it's interesting you thought that, Helena, that you thought he started to wake up and realise he was wrong. Did you think so, Tilda? That wasn't my reading actually. My reading was that he was a cold-blooded rapist and that he thought, he didn't think he'd done anything wrong, not because he didn't realise that it was rape and he didn't understand consent, but because he genuinely feels entitled to women's bodies. like he feels entitled to power and how he can't even deal with the times calling him arrogant.

It'll be interesting to see if the listeners have got any feedback as to what they thought. There's that bit where there's a scene which shows the young now Prime Minister and the young James White House in their unity is in Oxford in this Libertines Club where they're like pouring champagne away and they're generally acting very entitled and they're wrecking the room they're in. The young now Prime Minister, a waitress comes in and he grabs her breasts. You can see James looking at her

and seeing that she's, you know, uncomfortable, shocked, upset, distressed. She's just been assaulted. But still dismissing it, but he is the only person that goes up to her. But then his... He didn't stop it happening. Don't get me wrong. He offers her money. Yeah, that's the answer.

So yeah, he has a twinge of his conscience but his moral response is to go and offer her a chunk of money which to her is terrifying and she just runs and it just shows that maybe by his own set of morality he's moral but like where are these morals being created they're being created by those entitled parents who say you always come out on top by those schools who make you think that you know you're the

best cut, you're cut from the best cloth. And then that's what we see in the House of Commons when we have one rule for them. And that is materialising a policy. And that idea of anything can be bought. So this woman has not invited sex work. She's not a sex worker. But the idea is you can grab her. You can see she's distressed. You can pay her off. And anything can be bought. And that that's that idea of, and that's all the cat backhanders that kind of, you know, contracts for people, the COVID payouts for, you know, family members, things like that that goes on. It's like anything can be bought. Anything can be covered up. When I went to Oxford, I couldn't understand, because I was a bit older. I was in my 20s. And I couldn't understand how these

young people who had previously the year before being in school uniform was so, they'd be like, oh, I'm directing Cozy Van Tuti at the Oxford Playhouse. And I was thinking, why do you think you could direct an opera when you literally have just left school? Like, where's this coming from? And I'm not saying they couldn't. And they were good. And, you know, they'd had a lot of music training. I'm not saying they were not good at the things they were doing. It was where do you get the confidence was fascinating to me. They were like, oh, I'm translating this classic from the Greek, you know, and then we're going to put a performance on and it's going to be like this and everyone's going to be in, I don't know, fluorescent yellow leotards. And I was like, where are you getting this

confidence at 18? And then one day, I used to have my tutorials at the top of what we used to call a phallic tower where I used to go up, it was really house of common stuff. In my college, there was this tower and it was spiral staircase. You got all the way to the top. You got all the time. top and there'd be my tutor in there and just be me and him and we'd be sitting there and I'd have to read my essay out and he'd just listen and then he would quiz me uh I suppose so that one can prepare oneself for the House of Commons it's all set out for this or or to become a barrister or whatever and one day he said I said something in reply and he said well that's a very good point why was that not in your essay and I said well none of the critics had said it and I wasn't sure it

was right. And he said, you are an Oxford scholar. Your opinions are as valid as any opinion in the world. Whoa. And I was like, oh, so dangerous to be told that. I was like, oh, this is how they're all like this. But it did change me. It did make me go, right, this is how you have to play this game. You have to go in with your opinions and you have to deliver them in an arrogant fashion. And I've noticed that whenever I have to go into the House of Commons for something, I've been in with other people who've gone, oh my God, look at this place and it makes you feel very small, like a cathedral, is meant to make you feel the majesty of God, and you feel very tiny. And I always just think, oh, this is just like my college, just like the JCR, it's just like

the Oxford Union. I never feel intimidated in those spaces. And it's because you've spent three years at Oxford abusing the furniture. It's because you've jumped it out of windows like that. You've pulled people in when they've come in late and they're smashed or JCR nights where everyone's ended up, dancing on the tables or things like that. And JCR, if you don't know, that means junior common room. But, like, I don't even think to explain that because everything's in code. That code in portrait. It's like that code is the rule by which the House of Commons runs.

And so you make such a good point, Deborah, because anyone who enters that space and doesn't come from that background is immediately on a back footing because that is foreign territory, foreign culture, in which other people there feel really at home and real confident. And so anyone coming into politics from an underrepresented background is having to do so much more to get their voice heard in that debate and in that space. When we were talking about their own language and his image, James Whitehouse's image in an atmosphere of a scandal, it really struck me when James Whitehouse in some of the later episodes,

possibly even the last episode, he says to Sophie, well, I told the core truth. and I feel like the core truth is their language. I feel like they're like, tell the core truth and then all the details around it, you can lie. Every detail can be a lie because there's some core truth that you know, but then they don't have that information. So what you need to say is the core truth is this. Here's all the details that might make you think it's not the core truth,

but it is. And then they can decide, because they've got the same cards as you, what they do is they hold all the cards back and they only show you their core truth card, which isn't the core truth. It's not a truth at all. It's nothing like a truth. But to them in their minds, they've justified it.

Listen, guys, I'm really worried this is not passing the Bechal test because we are obsessed with these male characters because we hate them. But we need to talk about the female characters. There are some really juicy roles here for women. So when did you twig that our QC, Kate Woodcroft, who really wanted to take this case, and we weren't sure why, but we knew that she had a special interest,

and we also knew she had a special interest in nobody digging up anything from the Oxford past because it wasn't relevant to this case, even though we knew he was a libertine, played by Michelle Dockery. When did you twig that, in fact, she did have an interest in this case because she herself was featured in the flashbacks as somebody called Holly Berry, who at Oxford had come into contact with James. White House when he was a student. Yeah, I did not see that one coming.

That is what my friends would call a twist plot, because it's so much of a plot twist. It's just a stupid. It's so much of a plot twist. It's not, you've got to twist the word. It's disappointed I had to explain that one. Damn it. Poor delivery.

I mean, I thought, no, I thought that's what you meant, but, you know, thought I'd check. We are talking about the core truth, after all. I saw it coming only just before I went hold in a minute. I think Holly Berry is Kate. Woodcroft, and she's changed her name, she's changed her accent, she's changed her hair, and she's so much older that they don't recognise her initially. What was interesting about that was, you know, early on when we meet Kate Woodcroft's character

and we see her kind of making quite tasteless jokes about rape with her aid. You see she has this very clinical, very legal perspective on rape, and that at the end of the day is terrifyingly necessary if your priority is getting prosecution. then you're not handling something sensitively at all. You're going to be handling something very clinically. And then to discover that she did have such high personal states. As feminists and journalists who, you know, on Media Storm, you've done a whole episode on convictions.

And it's very unlikely that if you go to court with a rape case that you'll win, unless you are in fact the accused. It made me think a lot about, like, meeting, for one of our media storm episodes, we did cover this rape justice. And I went into the Crown Prosecution Service and I met Chavon Blake, who's the lead prosecutor for rape. And also the civil servants working with the Crown Prosecution Service. And you can see how much as individuals, they are working really hard and they really care about the issue, but they are trapped in a system that is wired, totally wrong. And so, yeah, I think seeing that that tug in

Kate Woodcroft's character between someone who is really high emotional stakes and someone who is just so cold and clinical when taking on this legal battle. It shows just how this system is set up because, and the show does well, I think, to demonstrate the barriers a case faces, a rape case, which by nature is very likely to hang on to testimonies, you know, and yet you have to persuade a jury. And also the legal standard of consent, I like that the show demonstrated. just have to demonstrate to a jury as a prosecution lawyer that the victim did not consent. You have to demonstrate that the accused could not have reasonably believed that the victim consented. And that is such an obscenely high standard that the reality is like the vast

majority of rapists walk free. And, Helena, you had this rant, you know, about how something the media needs to do better and maybe what the show does well, is to demonstrate that being acquitted of rape is not the same as being found innocent. Like statistically, that cannot be the case. And yet the victim then leaves looking like a liar when the likelihood is that people are not lying about these things. Yeah, in our third episode of Media Storm this was, and we had a really wonderful chat with Gina Martin,

who is the campaigner that made upskirting illegal and Leila Hussein, who is a wonderful activist and set up safe spaces for black women. And we really, really focused in that we couldn't stress enough that a not guilty verdict doesn't always mean that they didn't do the crime. It doesn't mean that they're innocent. It simply means that there wasn't enough evidence to convict them. Particularly when they're a person with a lot of privilege like James Whitehouse.

Oh, yeah, rich and powerful men get away with this far greater than anyone else. In the nature of assault cases, there is often, not enough evidence, because there's hardly ever a witness for obvious reasons, but there's hardly ever also CCTV. Or even like in this case, there was bruising and ripped underwear and things like that. And he just said, well, that's how she liked it. Unsubstantial underwear. He said, oh, she had a habit of wearing unsubstantial underwear,

which shows that when evidence does emerge, it's generally looked at as an investigation into the victim and the victim's character and all these myths and stereotypes. about oh she was asking for it that the mainstream media is so guilty and circulating even though like the court is trying to educate juries about these things like they still seep into public mindset and they still be weaponised very powerfully in court

it's like the closing the closing statement of the defence lawyer who's played by Joseph Simon who I thought who I thought was great she said to the jury why rape a woman who is willing to have sex with you which just shows like, oh, the ways that we are taught to view this crime.

It's not always about sexual gratification. It's about power. It's about humiliation. We only meet Olivia Lytton, the woman who, let's face it, was raped, played by Naomi Scott. We only meet her in this context of her trying to say what's happened to her, which is how jury, how the public, in a case like this would encounter. her and it's so hard for her to um fight her case like so much of the labour is is on the victims who hold to account untouchable men the things horrific things they're doing and

that's just yeah they need more help and honestly the anger that you i think see coming through kate when we're talking about at first you know she's she's doing this very legally and then obviously when we realise her personal stakes, the anger and the frustration, I felt that really hard. I feel that all the time when I think about these horrifying low conviction rates and that the whole system needs an overhaul for victims.

And what did you think about Kate? She's sleeping with someone else's husband. She does a really, like, not just unethical and illegal thing, by taking on a case in which she has an extremely personal stake. She didn't seem to be in the greatest position herself. Yeah, all the characters are flawed. And I do think that's important.

I mean, the same with Sienna Miller's character. You know, she's, in so many ways, reflects the same privilege and entitlement of her husband. You know, when he is acquitted and he's apologising to her, yeah, he's apologising to her about how he said that he loved Olivia Litton in court. He was like, you know, I was just saying that for strategy. You know, I didn't love her. She didn't mean anything to me, but I just had to say that of strategy. It doesn't occur to her to be like, you were under oath.

You lied under oath. That's kind of a crappy thing to do in itself. But, you know, it's not an issue. You could go to jail for it. Yeah, that's not an issue to her. Yeah, so all our characters are flawed. It's not realistic to have like squeaky clean goodies versus horrific baddies. Okay, so Helena and Matilda.

How does this series do you think reflect on the state of mainstream media and the law? And do you have any hope for change? Well, we spoke a little bit about the role of the journalist, didn't we? The role of the media, especially in cases like this, the scrum. Have you ever been in a media scrum like that, Matilda? Oh, I've actually managed to avoid those at most times. you have, haven't you? And you're so small. Oh, don't. You know, I have experienced being shoved out of the way by big men. And I'm like, look, I know I'm five foot one. I know I'm a

woman, but I've got to get my camera in here as well. It's quite something. But I think I haven't done it in, you know, as high profile of cases, this one in an aspect of a scandal. But, you know, I did find it interesting that they would often ask Sophie the question. as we've mentioned before, and I do think that state of mainstream media needs to change. I think what this show does as well when we're looking at the role that the mainstream media has in tackling this massive problem of rape, basically the decriminalisation of rape as the victim's commissioner, infamously called it. I think that what it points out is these myths and stereotypes about, you know, women, um, seducing.

young women seducing older men at work to get to where they want to be or, you know, prick teasing about how in unsubstantial underwear, slut shaming, how that can actually materialise in real cases of violence and in how that can be used in real legal battles. Those misstereotypes start with the mainstream media and we really need to be less spineless when we talk about, when, and report on a system that is so, that is wired, so wrong, that is not delivering. I don't think we, yeah, we need to take more of a stance in tackling those. We have to call it by its name.

And I do think that the show does that because we see the court case. The show does that. But often in the mainstream media, they'll use phrases like underage women or sex with a minor. And those two things do not exist. There's no such thing as an underage woman. Sex with a minor is rape. So don't glamourise it. Just call it by its name.

It's something the mainstream media really needs to do. And also to contextualise the crisis. So each rape case, trial and conviction that makes it to press represents a fraction of the violence that is actually happening. And so it's helpful to highlight these wider statistics whenever possible because that prevents the disbelieving of victims who don't see justice. Yeah. And you can see how the media jumps on this story,

not because it's like, oh, here's a really important story about violence against women, but it's about the salacious, headline-grabbing scandal, the Chardon Freud of watching these perfect lives unravel. You know, the show really does capture that grim, vulture-like media obsession with rape,

which isn't about social justice and it isn't about protecting women. And finally, the twist at the end, the twist plot at the end, which is Siena Miller she knows that both the prime minister and her husband have done something illegal at Oxford and at the time he confessed to his uni girlfriend that he covered up evidence around heroin misuse when someone jumped to their death, one of the libertines jumped to their death.

So she, because that was a crime, she reveals that to the press and for that reason, the prime minister and Sophie Whitehouse's husband, James Whitehouse, are both taken away to be investigated by the police how hopeful are you that a conviction will occur there because I'll be honest with you it looked like wow and yes she scandalised them and damage their reputation but let us be incredibly honest I don't think they're going down for that

because it's so old there's not going to be any evidence it's just her word I think it's kind of the show to end it there to give us that catharsis but if they played it out they know realistically they'd have to live in the fact that this show

has kind of come out when our own Prime Minister is being investigated by the police and nothing's happened and he's still in office. When I saw that, I thought, oh, well, they're going to get away with it, aren't they? And this book must have been written a long time before then and this show must have been in the can before part of gay. It feels painfully topical. It feels painfully topical for so many reasons. It's like the writers could see into the future and it's painfully zeitgeisty and we wish it weren't. We wish it were fantasy. Well, what is this like sci-fi? In fact, it's just our lives. I know it was a cathartic

moment just seeing them in a police car, but it did strike me, you know, it's like, you know, they're not a handcuffs or anything. They're just being taken in for some questions and the evidence is going to be so old. Also, we know what happens when politicians get caught out taking class A drugs in their youth. They were just experimenting and that's how they know that these drugs are really bad and they can crack down and throw all these less fortunate people in prison about it. So we know how that story goes. Listen to the media storm episode on drugs, a little park there. Yeah. And let's be honest, the judge is on their case. If it does go to court,

is going to be someone who probably went to Oxford with them. Or was at the same college or the same school or, oh, boys were boys, pretty jolly good chap. We all got ourselves into scrapes when we were younger. It doesn't mean we can't run the country now. We hope things are going to change in real life, but I feel we're going to have to make them change. They're not going to change on their own because they haven't yet. So let me say again, Helena and Matilda, congratulations on the Arya nomination for your podcast. Only season one and you're already gnombed, so fingers crossed for a win. I mean, you're up against like women's hour and like behemoths. Is that a mistake? A behemoths of the industry. So pick a great frock for the

award ceremony and get as many picks as you can on the red carpet. And Who knows? Maybe you'll come home with a trophy. We look forward to more nominations, and we look forward to deconstructing more Netflix series from a guilty angle as well as a feminist one. Thank you so much. We hope you enjoyed Anatomy of the scandal and our deconstruction of it, and we will see you next time. Goodbye. Bye.