Media Storm - S1E4 Transgender healthcare: A waiting game - with Laura Blake and Shivani Dave

Episode Date: December 16, 2021

Media Storm presented by Mathilda Mallinson and Helena Wadia Content warning: Suicide, self-harm Episode 1.4: Transgender healthcare: A waiting game - with Laura Blake and Shivani Dave  Read the transcript: https://mediastormpodcast.com/2021/12/30/1-4-transgender-healthcare-a-waiting-game/ The mainstream media might have us all thinking changing genders is a piece of cake - that hormones are being readily prescribed and surgeries booked in swiftly. But with people waiting years for the first ever appointment - that's simply not the case. Cancellations, discrimination from healthcare staff and semi-decade long waiting lists - this is the reality for gender diverse people. NHS England’s Gender Identity Development Service are currently seeing people referred in 2018. For other clinics, it’s 2017. Media Storm investigates the lack of healthcare for trans people, finds out what it’s like to be stuck in the waiting game, and sits down with The Good Law Project, who are taking the NHS to court. We’re joined in the studio by Laura Blake (she/her) and Shivani Dave (they/them), to discuss the mainstream media’s depiction of transgender and non-binary people, plus look at some of the week’s headlines on conversion therapy and trans people. Speakers (in order of appearance): Felix Mufti @felixmufti Eva Echo @EvaEch0 Jo Maugham @JolyonMaugham @GoodLawProject Cleo Madeleine @quidtumcicero @Genderintell Shivani Dave @ShivaniDave @dah_vey Laura Blake @heylaurablake Sources: GIDS waiting times: https://gids.nhs.uk/how-long-wait-first-appointment-gids GIC waiting times: https://gic.nhs.uk/appointments/waiting-times/ Gender GP survey on bridging hormones: https://www.gendergp.com/bridging-hormones/ The Transgender Issue, Shon Faye: https://www.queerlit.co.uk/products/the-transgender-issue-an-argument-for-justice  Get in touch: Follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/mediastormpod or Instagram https://www.instagram.com/mediastormpod or Tiktok https://www.tiktok.com/@mediastormpod like us on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/MediaStormPod send us an email [e-mail] check out our website https://mediastormpodcast.com Music by Samfire @soundofsamfire.  Media Storm is brought to you by the house of The Guilty Feminist and is part of the Acast Creator Network Become a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/media-storm. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Matilda, we're about to do something very shocking. What? We're about to hear about the issues facing transgender people from transgender people and not from Piers Morgan. Oh my God. No, I actually think we might get really criticised for that. It just feels like such a conspicuous omission, you know, that's the voice people I expect to hear on these issues.

Yeah, I know. Where's the balance? Yeah. Look, we're joking, right, partially, but for a long time, it has been the case that information about transgender and gender non-conforming people has come from people who don't have lived experience. And subsequently, what we've been told is that it's not only easy for people to transition, but it's somehow a threat to cisgender people. And for those of you who may not have heard that term before, a cis person is someone whose gender identity is the

same as the sex assigned to them at birth. So, Matilda, as a cis person, if you wanted hormones, say, birth control, what would you do? Well, I'd go to the GP, get a prescription, and be popping pills within a couple days, I guess. Well, for trans people, that process is much harder and that waiting can go on for much longer than we might think. How long are we talking?

Well, I'm off around the UK to speak to transgender people about these long waits, what's being done to reduce those times and what it's really like to be stuck in a limbo. And I'll see you back in the studio with some very special guests to discuss everything around this media store. Children are basically being experimented on with puberty blockers. And it is actually used as an insult when people are called cis. Speaking out in this trans debate.

I'm actually a two-spirit neutralist pan-gender penguin. The meaning of woman is only the definite. definition is only adult human female. Welcome to MediaStorm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. I'm Helena Wadia and I'm Matilda Mallinson. This week's investigation, transgender healthcare, a waiting game. The NHS, designed to deliver free and punctual healthcare for all. But for many transgender or gender non-conforming people, that's not the case.

case. There have been stories of gender reassignment surgery being cancelled, discrimination from healthcare staff, but most of all, long, agonising waits. I'm off to Liverpool to speak to Felix Mufti, a writer and actor, as he tells me his story of playing the waiting game. I sit down with Felix in Lovellocks. I sit down with Felix in Lovellocks. an independent and inclusive coffee shop covered in plants, pictures and pride flags. When I was about 13,

I discovered the word trans and realised there was a word for what I'd been feeling my whole entire life. And I came out, got an appointment with my GP and they referred me to the Tava Stock Gender Clinic for young people. So my referral went through when I was 14. I got my first appointment

three and a half years later when I was near. nearly 18. I went to the Tabastock Clinic and they told me I was too old for their services. So they referred me to the Leeds Adler Clinic, which is the closest gender clinic to Liverpool, which is two and a half hours away on the train. And then I got my first appointment last year and I'm 20 now. So I got referred when I was 14 and got my first appointment when I was 19. NHS England's Gender Identity Development Service, or GIDS, is the only gender identity

clinic for people under 18 in the UK. The Gids website at the time of recording states we are currently seeing young people for their first appointment in GIDS who were referred in 2018. That's three years ago. There are seven adult gender identity clinics in England. Currently the London waiting times which are updated monthly on their website states we are offering first appointment to people who were referred in November 2017. That's over four years ago. It's easy to hear this and not really think about what it's actually like stuck in a limbo waiting for gender affirming healthcare. I had so much of my teenage years that were taken away from me for no other reason than how funded the services are. And that's years that I'll never get back. You know,

People say, oh, puberty blockers, oh puberty blockers, and they make this huge horrible deal about them. But puberty blockers, they're actually a reversible treatment. But the damage that was done to my body and me mentally isn't reversible. You know, I have to live with that forever. I have to live with the memories of growing up like that. And the memories of the dysphoria I had all the time forever. There was really times where I really struggled with my mental health.

Like, you know, I had really bad depressive episodes where, like, I didn't leave my house, didn't go to school, would live vicariously through the Sims and would just create my life on there as Felix and, you know, honestly the things that I do on there would just be like, go to work, make myself rude, like, you know, really simple human tasks that I didn't feel able to do in real life because of like the anxiety that I felt caused by dysphoria. I think as trans people, we wait for so long. We wait to love ourselves. We wait to feel accepted. we wait to feel safe. I don't think it comes to much surprise

trans people to have to wait to have medical intervention, which is sad, but it's the reality because we get so used to it, we get conditioned to waiting. I am in essentially a binary system. Eva Evo ECHO, who came out as a trans woman at the age of 37,

also speaks to me about the long wait for freedom. Right from day one, I was told how I should be, And I've then spent a majority of my life pushing that down. And unfortunately, that resulted in a lot of mental health issues, such as suicide attempts, an eating disorder for most of my adult life, self-harm, depression. I was always told that if I stood out, I'd be laughed at, I'd be bullied. And I was bullied anyway, just for being the only East Asian kid in secondary school, basically.

and unfortunately when you come out you have this moment of euphoria you present yourself to the world but for me it was quickly dashed because I realized the waiting times on the NHS were incredible and it's almost like you work up to this moment where you can be yourself after so long after so many struggles only to be told great yeah but we're struggling with numbers at the moment so you're going to have to wait your turn and give my age as well I'm thinking thinking, you know, the way things are going, I'll probably be closer to 50 before I can really move on with my life. You know, at a time when I'm supposed to be happy, I'm supposed to be free. I'm not. I've just literally jumped out of one cage and thrown into another.

There we go. I smashed it. We got there at the end. Eva is being supported by the Good Law Project, who have formally started court proceedings against NHS England over what they call on lawful delays to meeting the trans community's healthcare needs. The NHS constitution says patients should wait no longer than 18 weeks from GP referral to treatment. NHS England says the issue is not funding constraints and that they have done everything possible. The Good Law Project does not accept their analysis and intends to put the matter before a judge to decide. Joe Maugham is a lawyer and the director of the Good Law Project.

It's an illustration of a broader debate that's happening in society between those who have a very political take and people like Eva whose lives are the subject of those political debates. I mean, it's really, really striking to me how many people who are not doctors, who are not trans, who are not parents of trans children. who have no real expertise in the issue at all have very strong opinions about the proper way to help kids who are gender incongruent. And it comes, as I say, from this belief that is a political position that being trans is a sickness

and the solution to it is to encourage people not to be trans. What has the response been from the NHS and what do you expect the response to be? The response hitherto has been to say we're doing everything we can to make things better and we are complying with our legal obligations. We don't think that is legally sustainable. Indeed, I don't even think that the NHS believes that it's legally sustainable. I think the legal responses that we are getting, which are sometimes on some point, little more than nonsense, reflect an internal battle that is happening in the NHS

between those who are focused on patient care and those who are transphobic. I asked Joe and Eva what they think could be done in the immediate term to help trans people access the healthcare that they need. I think immediately I would look to giving GPs the power to prescribe. Currently, GPs can only give out a bridging prescription, which is a temporary prescription of hormones given to a patient who is waiting for specialist treatment, usually at a gender identity clinic. But the rules say that GPs should only consider issuing bridging prescriptions in cases where all the following criteria are met. One, the patient is already self-prescribing

from an unregulated source, such as the black market. Two, the bridging prescription is intended to mitigate a risk of self-harm or suicide, and three, the GP has sought the advice of an experienced gender specialist and prescribed the lowest acceptable dose. In a world where the mainstream media tells us that hormones for transgender people are easy to access, it's hard to find out the exact number of bridging prescriptions given out, especially due to the criteria that has to be met. One survey of 68 people found that 80% of GPs have refused to prescribe bridging hormones to trans patients while they wait for NHS specialist services. I asked the Royal College of GPs for data on this, but they didn't have any. They did tell me that new presentations of gender

dysphoria in general practice are infrequent and therefore initiating treatment sits outside of a generalist's role. However, they also said that they recommend transatlorea. gender issues should be included on the GP curriculum, as currently they're not. The hormone therapy that we're given is exactly the same as a woman who's going through menopause. Yet, you know, a woman who is menopausal does not need to see two independent specialists to get a diagnosis in order to start treatment. So we need to remove that gatekeeping. And in doing so, you are freeing up the NHS gender clinics. In fact, you would only need a gender clinic for, you know, gender confirmation surgery if you needed further treatment and if you

needed a specialist in order to then give you the recommendation and the go-ahead to have those treatments. But other than that, you know, your doctor monitors your blood levels, your hormone levels can prescribe anyway. Why not hand it to the GPs? I broadly agree with either. The solution, it seems to me, is to empower GPs to make the decisions that they feel comfortable making. And there's no reason to think that doctors will behave irresponsibly. If they do, they will be subject in the same way as every other irresponsible professional to oversight from their regulator. So you say to doctors there will be easy cases and there will be difficult cases

and the easy cases, you can prescribe yourself. And the difficult cases, you should push up the chain. And that way, you release capacity for the most difficult cases to be dealt with, as in every other field of medicine, by the most expert people. The situation at the moment where the lives and the bodies of transgender people have become a political battleground, is antithetical to what we understand when we use the word health care. It's not about health care any longer, it's about politics, and that's very, very wrong.

So while trans and gender diverse people are stuck in the waiting game, where can they go? Hello, hi, how are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you? Lovely to meet you properly. Cleo Madeline is from Gendered Intelligence, a charity that exists to increase understandings of gender diversity, and improve trans people's quality of life. She told me about the services the charity provides. During the pandemic, there's been a rise in people seeking mental health support everywhere across the board.

And we've certainly seen an increase in demand for our services during that time, particularly with our young people. We have youth groups in London and Leeds. We've also gotten 18 to 30 peer support group in London. And since the start of the pandemic, we've been facilitating online youth spaces in safeguarded environments. More broadly speaking, we provide consulting, we provide education, we provide CPD training around gender. So these are for organisations, for workplaces. And that's really about improving awareness around trans people, promoting better understanding.

Honestly, I think it's just so important to have those spaces. You know, would that we could waive a wand and tomorrow these really long waits for specialist services would go away. But we can't, but what we can do is create spaces for young people just to be themselves to figure out how they want to be addressed, how they feel with themselves, to be able to talk to train professionals who can support them at this really, really difficult moment in their lives. And even, you know, support it into being a good moment in their lives,

to being something fulfilling. I think because there is a mental health crisis, particularly among transgender and non-binary people, and because there's a lot of conversation about that, we almost fall into a trap of feeling like that is the only outcome. like, you know, whether you get to have that conversation about your gender identity or not, it's always going to suck. And I really, really want to stress that, like, if you can find that supportive environment,

then it's not, you know, it's always going to be difficult, but it can also be rewarding, it can also be fortifying, you know, it can get better. So if giving GPs the power to prescribe will reduce long wait lists and will help alleviate the mental health crisis facing, the trans community, what's stopping it happen? Is it that there's a direct link between the healthcare trans people receive and how trans people are depicted in the media? That takes us back to the studio. Welcome back to the studio and to Media Storm, a podcast that puts people with lived experience at the centre of the conversation. Today we are talking about transgender

gender and gender non-conforming people and how they are depicted in the mainstream media. And with us are some very special guests. Our first guest is an award-winning creative producer, the founder of Alphabet Radio, a presenter on Soho Radio and broadcaster of the Laura Blake show on Twitch. It's Laura Blake. Hi, Laura. When you're reading that, I was like, oh, this is impressive. Who's this? Oh, wait, it's me. Our second guest is a physicist, presenter and producer. They produce the award-winning LGBTQ plus history podcast, The Logbooks,

have presented on Virgin Radio Pride, BBC Radio One and much more. Plus, they present the podcast from Charity Mermaids. She said, they said. It's Sivani Darve. Hello. I feel like I need somebody to read that out every time before I enter a room. We've just heard Helen as investigation into the barriers that transgender people face when accessing healthcare.

We heard that the story of Felix Muffalo. who was 14 when referred for an initial gender care appointment and 19 at his first appointment. Is this surprising to you to hear? Unfortunately, not surprising for me. I think sadly for a lot of people, five years is kind of an optimistic time frame. Here's the thing. I'm not shocked as somebody with the lived experience. I was referred a few years ago. I'm still waiting for my first NHS appointment.

But with the context that the NHS are supposed to see, Anybody, if they've been referred within 18 weeks, with that context, I'm absolutely shocked, livered and heartbroken for Felix and for everybody. And if we said, oh, some cancer patients are being seen after five years, it's just devastating. That would be like front page news. People would be outrage. They'd be up in arms. People should be feeling that outrage, I think, about trans people accessing the healthcare that they need. It's not even just that it's not reported on. I think that the means. media almost gives the opposite impression. Okay, I'm someone and I apologize for this,

but my main exposure to this topic is the mainstream media. And the impression that I would almost have on my mind is that puberty blockers are being handed out like candy, kids being rushed through surgeries they might later regret. You know, proportionality in reporting, how we choose which stories are told, is one of the most covert ways bias infects our media. An article might look impartial because it presents two sides of the story,

but the very existence or the prevalence of that article, that may be a distortion because I remember a viral story about one child who regretted transitioning and it was discussed with panic on every morning show. But hearing these accounts, it doesn't sound like there's much space for uncertainty to survive the process. 1% of humans are transgender that were reported.

That's 1%. 1% of those trans people detransition. That is not point. nor 1%. When you have any kind of surgery, you will be told, oh, there is a risk to this. These services for young people are life-saving. If you look at the rates that young people and trans adults take their lives because they're not in their right identities, it is absolutely life-saving medical intervention. I went through the wrong puberty. I'm so unlucky to have had the word transgender come into my vocabulary too late in life. I always knew that I was a feminine entity I always wanted to be a girl

I wanted to be like my female friends I always wanted to be a woman but I never knew I just thought I was weird I never it was never in my vocabulary there are children today that are so more educated on this topic and they can receive a puberty pauser

so they can make sure that they're happy I would have loved to have paused my puberty so I knew which one I wanted to go through my pronouns are she her and my voice does not relate this and it's heartbreaking. I think it's a really good time for us then now to talk about the type of language that's used in the media.

Something that I've been thinking about, you know, when doing this episode is the term sex-based rights that has really risen to prominence over the last few years. And the main basis for the people that use that term is science, right? They say no matter what your gender identity, it is fact that you are born. male or female. But I guess what is like problematic about that is that scientifically intersex people exist or people known to have differences of sex development exist. The fact that there are many different biological sexes is completely ignored when sex-based rights are reported on. It kind of makes me question what those people campaigning for sex-based rights are actually

campaigning for? Are they actually campaigning for a world in which sex is still defined in binary terms? Because there are very few legal systems that allow for any ambiguity in biological sex. At the end of the day, like, it's because we have this like really binary system that people think the world operates in. Like, you're either a man or you're a woman. For me, being non-binary, I'm neither of those things. And that's the point. And, What I find really interesting about feminists and feminism who are transphobic, I find it tough to call them feminists in the first place. But what I find really interesting about these kinds of people

is that so much of their predecessors in the feminist world have sort of said, you know, we're so much more than our genitals. But now what's happened in, I don't know what this is, like the 27th wave of feminism, it's like the sum total of a woman is defined by what's between her legs. and it's almost regressed in that way. If you pick apart some of that language, so much of it is just so deeply entrenched in patriarchal language

that some people think they're trying to shake off, but they're actually just enforcing deeper and deeper. Which is why the word feminist and transphobes shouldn't go in the same phrase. Exactly. The whole idea of a trans-exclusive radical feminist is kind of like an oxymoron. You mean exclusionary. that I'd like a trans-exclusive radical feminist. Yeah, sorry.

That kind of T-E-R-F, and I'm not saying the word, because I've been told it to slur many times, even though I don't believe it is. I'd love that. I am a trans-exclusion. No, what do you say? A trans-exclusive. We are the trans-exclusive radical feminists.

By the time this podcast goes out, I'm going to be selling that on the T-shirt. I'm writing that down in my notes. I'm going to make that T-shirt. I'm not even joking. Tag me and credit it, okay? I'll give you a percentage. Oh, take it.

What's quite scary is why, your question was like, what are they campaigning for with sex-spaced rights? If I asked the three of you, women, you know women, right? They deserve to be safe when they go to the toilet. I think you'd all say yes, right? Yeah. Yeah? Okay, well, if you think women deserve to be safe when they go to the toilet, you've got to hate trans people because they want to do stuff to them in the... No, I'll tell you what, I'm petrified of going to the toilet, I'm petrified of being verbally abused.

just want to go for a wee. I just want to go for a wee. If somebody wants to do some kind of assault, they're going to do it. I've never seen a toilet with a doorman before in my life or a door person, we should say. It's the 21st century, Laura, get your act together. There's not a security accredited official at the door checking IDs a toilet. There never will be, only because we haven't got enough staff because of Brexit. Like in that, first of all, there are several studies that confirm there's no link between, like, trans-inclusive policies and bathroom safety. Columnie shocked.

Yeah. But also there's, there's also been reports of cis women saying that they've been verbally abused in bathrooms because they don't look cis enough or, you know, or because they present in a more androgynous or masculine way. You know, what's happening here? Like, are you rolling back the rights of? women. Also, something that I thought a lot about when the discussion started happening was, if a female toilet is my safe space, Laura, what are your safe spaces? How many safe spaces

do you find in public areas? Literally none. My safe space is my car. I am very privileged to have a car in London. I can't afford it. And every time I go see a friend, they're like, why did you drive? Five seconds ago, oh, because when I walk in public, I'm six foot two. And I'm pretty cute. You are down cute. I don't massively pass in public. I'll get verbal abuse. I'll get couples nudging each other to have a look. I will get people like sat in restaurants or sat outside cafes over the road

pointing because they don't think that I can see them. Although I'm looking at everybody when I was on the street because I know it's coming. I have people shouting abuse from vans that drive past. The only safe space for me is when I walk the dog in the park outside my flat and even then I'm on edge. It's so horrible that that is the reality that you have and so many other people have that reality. Just to kind of continue with the conversation about the language used,

we hear sometimes that the language used to describe trans people or gender diverse people is similar language that was used about gay and lesbian people in the park. particularly gay men, I have a few examples. In December 1991, the Times ran a column with the headline, The Sad Fraud of Gay Equality, in which the writer argued against equalizing the age of consent, saying that men who are too shy to talk to women are vulnerable to being seduced by gay men and then will find themselves in a club from which there may be no return. In a similar way in 1994, when the vote was in the comments about equalising the age of consent, there was, as may sound familiar now, concerns about children. Lady Olga Maitland, then a Conservative MP, claimed

that a 16-year-old boy, troubled by his growing sexuality, could be vulnerable to pressure from the gay lobby. Does all of this sound familiar? Yes. Yes. So many of the media storms that we talk about on this show are like air raid sirens about some perceived incoming cultural, spiritual threat to the nation. The reality is most people reading about these issues will never in any way be remotely affected by them. They're very localized, but these headlines get people emotionally invested in a way that's kind of unnecessary, like for their own mental well-being, as well as the well-being of the people actually affected. Not that long ago, many people saw gay marriage is a great spiritual threat to the nation.

Now it's normalized, most realize that its existence hasn't actually changed anything for them. But it has changed whole lives for the people affected. To give fairness to the people that are questioning like the medicalisation of children, I think it's fair to say the concerns for children who are queer are slightly different to the concerns of children that are trans because there are medical, sometimes irreversical medical decisions. And that's why puberty blockers aren't. blockers, their puberty pauses, they pause puberty so that child can get therapy and can be

talked to and be made sure that it's the right decision for them. All trans people, all queer people and all cis-hep people all have concerns about children. I just don't think they're the same concerns. We want to safeguard them. We don't want them to delay them so long that they have irreversible damages going through the wrong puberty when it can be paused. There's a lot of talking the media about, you know, children as young as X or, you know, brainwashed, impressionable, irreversible, life-altering. But I do just want to read what the writer and presenter Sean Faye wrote in her recent book, The Transgender Issue, about it, because I just think it sums it up. It might seem that in the past decade there has been a huge rise in children expressing issues

with their birth-assigned gender. This is a perilous misunderstanding of the reality. In fact, there aren't greater numbers of children asserting trans identity than there were in times past. There are simply more children who feel able to talk about it openly and seek support and advocacy from their parents. Hearing you read that out, I'm kind of almost at the point of crying like I was reading the book. I wish, I wish when I was younger, my parents knew more and society knew more. I wish I didn't go through the wrong puberty. And it's heartbreaking to think that children do. And I'm not talking like heartbreaking like you're watching DIYS. I'm talking proper heartbreaking that there are people that don't think that it's worthwhile pausing a child

puberty if it gets to a point where they spoke to a professional to say, you know what, let's give you a bit more time. Let's give you a bit more time to decide. I think also the thing that we're all skirting around is this is life-saving treatment for some children. And what you said as well children as young as that's a phrase that really rolls me up it really really gets me going most people would say yeah children need to be kept safe and need to access to education and all sorts of things but for some reason that education and all of the safety always seems to be in the cis normativity space of safety and education as opposed to what is right for them it is it is a cultural right trans people are one percent of the population most people

people that I know have never met a trans person. It's a last taboo and it's so easy to make everybody scared of trans people. So that's what's happening. When I came out as non-binary from my family, it wasn't so much of, ah, you're scary. This is terrifying. They were completely on board with like, this is who you've always been. These are some new words that you want us to use. But a huge part of their concern and their worry, it was like more my mum just saying like

that she was worried about me in the sense of like how the world was going to perceive me and the way that I was going to be a target for people. She was just scared for me. I suppose what we want to ask then is what can the media do to depict trans people in a fuller way? I mean, take a key from this podcast, actually have trans people on. In 2020, the Times wrote over 300 articles about trans people. Do you three want to guess how many of them were written by trans people? Don't worry, I'll tell you, it was none of them.

none of them were written by trans people not one it was the same for me in my previous employer i pitched articles videos multimedia stuff all sorts of things about trans people non-binary people i was actually told that i wasn't allowed to report on the issue because they obviously see trans people as one big issue i was told that i wasn't allowed to report on it from an editorial point of view because i'm you know part of that community and i was like wow would you have oh no I can't. Would you have a... It's like saying a black reporter can't report on black... Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And there's a fallacy in that. The belief that to be detached from an issue makes you impartial. That detachment is privilege. That detachment is bias. To think that you are objective if you are not impacted by an issue that affects other communities makes you privileged. It is just a complete illusion. and yet it is so dominant within schools of journalism.

It's all about, oh, we have to be impartial. No, it's due impartiality, which means that we're not impartial about racism. We don't have somebody going, let's have somebody from the KKK, or let's have a Nazi on to talk about the other side. We don't do that because it's due impartiality. Chavon, it feels mad to me.

It feels absolutely mad to me that whoever your last employer was, and I don't know who you're talking about, but it's mad to me that somebody would say that to you. don't think I'm still quite over it. Like, I'm still processing that now. It was galaxy brain. Time now to look at some of the articles that are making headlines in the news this week. What we want to look at now is this article from The Times. It's titled, conversion therapy ban will face tough opposition. For context, conversion therapy refers to any form of treatment or psychotherapy which aims to change a person's sexual orientation or to suppress a person's gender identity.

It is discredited by the World Health Organization and more than 60 health professional associations from over 20 countries. It's referred to as torture by those who have been through it. Now, campaigners have been trying to get conversion therapy banned in the UK for a long time and there is currently an open conversion therapy consultation by the UK government which comes three years after pledging to ban conversion therapy. therapy. This week, the consultation deadline has been delayed again. In the last week, there have been several stories in The Times, the Telegraph and the Daily Mail in particular, who claim the ban is a controversial gender law, that it's going to criminalise parents and some religious

leaders if it goes ahead as it is. Many of those papers have been calling for the ban to be delayed, which it now has. Did anyone have any thoughts on this article? I mean, the government delayed it were they too busy having cheese and wine but in all seriousness it is just it just smacks of this government it feels like we're going to keep retrying this until we get the response we want with this particular comment in the times it's arguing that you don't need new legislation to ban conversion therapy and one of the things that just instantly had my eyes rolling was the clear double standards afforded to a practice an abusive practice that is common in white christian culture One of the first points that this article makes is that the government has to juggle banning conversion therapy

with preserving the fundamental human rights of freedom of religion and the right to a private and family life. This is a practice described as torture by those subjected to it, right? Can you imagine talking about forced child marriage or the selling of young girls in the context of a private family, the right to a private family life or the right to freedom of religion? We barely even afford hijabs and burqers that allowance. It is such a double standard. Can I just say, you said it's described by torture by the people that have experienced it. It's also described as torture by the UN.

Yeah, and the World Health Organization. Yeah, it is torture. It is torture. There are multiple countries that consider it torture, and yet this country, nah, got us respect religion, mate. Well, I'm part of a religion that involves the government giving me a million pounds every year. Can we respect that religion, please? And I'd like to point out that the person writing this article, Roger Kiska, is a lawyer based in Slovakia who works for the hardline UK-based lobbying group, Christian Legal Centre.

So not only does this comment in the Times fail to reflect the views of anyone who has ever experienced this practice, it reflects the views of groups who profit from it. It's the kind of thing that nobody really, like, bats an eyelid about people. I think particularly in the media and in the press, seem to think that it's a thing that happens but nobody actually does it, nobody has to actually undergo it. For a lot of people

though, in the UK, regardless of race, regardless of religion, conversion therapy is something that happens and yes, it can be torture but it can also happen in very small, like very under the radar ways

ignoring that person's identity, arranging for them to have introductions for marriage or dating or whatever with somebody of the sex that they are not attracted to. Those things can mount up and they can put pressure on an individual and it leads into a culture of homophobia and transphobia that we have in our society. The main issues in the coverage of conversion therapy this week have been that a lot of the articles are conflating gender transition services and gender transition healthcare

with conversion therapy. They're kind of saying, yeah, conversion therapy for gay people is bad, but it may be good for trans people. Yes. When you think about that in the most basic terms, is actually shocking. Well, when I think they announced the consultation,

there were a lot of people who were like, oh, this is great. It means that charities like mermaids and Stonewall are going to be breaking the law because they're trying to convert people to change their genders. And people said that, seriously. There's not any education about it. So somebody says to me, oh, this is really bad because of X, Y, and Z, I'm going to go, okay, is it? Oh, really? Oh, okay. And even if that's

the first thing I hear, even if I look into it, even if I do the research and I decide it's not, my muscle memory is going to remember the first thing that I was told. And my muscle memory is going to always go to that point and then correct itself. There is a statistic quoted in this article from the Times that says, NHS statistics indicate that if left alone, 80% of of gender dysphoric children reconcile with their birth sex by the time they passed through puberty. Now, Media Storm have searched for the NHS statistic quoted here and could not find it.

We have reached out to the Times to ask them to cite where they got the statistic from and at the time of recording, they have not yet responded. We will keep you updated on our social media channels if and when they do respond. Within that statistic, there are people who are trans who have been unable to transition. May that be because of financial reasons

or being unable to access health care, whatever the reason is, there are trans people who can't transition. And I think a huge thing that that statistic, if it does exist, needs to consider, is how many of those people live beyond the point at which they realize that they are unable to transition, and also how many of those people in later life

still do wish they could transition? Like, how much is that just rooted in the fact that people kind of say, well, this is like it or lump it, this is what I've got, and I've just got to deal with it, because there are so many people who don't have access to the kinds of financial support that they would need. Like Felix talks about needing to get a really expensive train to be able to go to the clinic and there are so many barriers as to why people can't transition. And some people might just say, well, this is my lot and try and live their life.

And also, some people don't want to because of society. Exactly. I know so many trans people, masculine and feminine, who don't want to come out because they're scared of the hatred. I questioned if I should be my authentic self for years. Not because I questioned who I was. My friends were calling me Laura for five years before I came out. The reason is because I just saw how rampant transphobia was and it just gets worse. I feel like I was privileged in coming out and not having to deal with what happens today

but those people face even more crap from society and from the press specifically that I wish editors, sub-editors, writers that do this stuff are meeting trans people are hearing from trans even if they want to keep their bigotry going that they at least listen to people and they consider that actually they might be ruining a crap ton of people's lives I feel like I lost years and there are people that have been in the closet for over a decade

that are ready to come out that just are scared and it's getting worse how long have your episode's been I will bet a cocktail for the next time I see you both or the first time I see you both in real life but this is over 45 minutes I'm a pretty good editor. Matilda is ruthless.

If you cut us, then it's transphobic. That's a wrap. Now, before we finish, we would just like to say to all of our listeners, Merry Christmas. This is our final episode before the festive break, but we will be back on Thursday the 13th of January with part two of the season. We start by looking into the criminal justice system before taking on the media storms around body image, homelessness, disabilities, sex, drugs and rock and roll.

Minus the rock and roll. Thank you so much to our amazing final guests of 2021. Laura, where can people follow you and do you have anything to plug? I am at Hey Laura Blake on all social media platforms, but the one thing I want to plug is if you're lonely at 9.30 in the morning, Monday to Friday, I stream on Twitch. Twitch is a gaming platform where people play video games. I just talk to my audience. So if you want a nice, wholesome safe space, Twitch.combe,

Monday to Friday at 9.30am. And Shavani, please tell us your social media handles where people can find you and if you have anything to plug. I am on Twitter at Shavani Darve but you spell Darve-D-A-V-E like Dave and then on Instagram and TikTok. Yes, I'm on TikTok.

I'm down with the kids. And if you are too, you can find me at D-A-H-V-E-Y-D-V-E-Y-D-V-E-Y. That's how it's pronounced. And if you are bored over the Christmas winter period of darkness, cold, wet and gloom, and you don't want to spend time speaking to your families or having them speak at you, then you can listen to me on Virgin Radio Chilled all through the festive season. I will be playing loads of music to kick back to. Follow MediaStorm wherever you get to your podcasts so that you can get access to new episodes as soon as they drop.

If you like what you hear, share this episode with someone and leave us a five-star rating and a review on Apple Podcasts. It really helps more people discover the podcast and our aim is to have as many people as possible hear these voices. You can also follow us on Twitter, Instagram and TikTok at Helena Wadia, at Matilda Mal and at MediaStorm pod. Get in touch and let us know what you'd like us to cover or who you'd like us to speak to. Media Storm, a new podcast from The House of the Guilty Feminist is part of the ACOS creator. Network. It is produced by Tom Solinsky and Deborah Francis White. The music is by Samfire.