Media Storm - S2E11 Menopause, sexism, ageism: What's driving women out of work? - with Karen Arthur and Emma Goswell

Episode Date: November 24, 2022

Warning: Some strong language  Welcome to The Menopause Revolution! A new era for a bodily phenomenon we were once too scared to call by name. Menopause is starting to show its face in our mainstream media, but how accurate is the coverage that has emerged? How much of it is stigma-smashing, and how much of it is scaremongering? And has all this talk resulted in any actual change? This week, Media Storm speaks to older women in the workplace, with a close inspection of the regularly-reported story that 900,000 women in the UK population have been driven out of work due to menopause. We’ll meet some of the people behind those numbers, assess the reliability of its source, and question whether anything besides the midlife mistress is to blame. Working women often speak of feeling invisible, overlooked and unconfident as they get older, despite becoming increasingly knowledgeable and experienced in their fields. So is it menopause - or good old fashioned ageism and sexism?  We are joined in the studio by Menopause Whilst Black host Karen Arthur and Effin' Hormones host Emma Goswell to talk about how the media covers menopause, rethink the representation of women in midlife, and pick apart some hare-brained headlines on hormone replacement therapy and more. The episode is hosted by Mathilda Mallinson (@mathildamall) and Helena Wadia (@helenawadia), with research by Eliza Meller.  Guests: Sally Leech @MenopauseClub, Henpicked @T4W_Henpicked Rachel Lankester, Magnificent Midlife @MagnifMidlife Lisa Nicholls, Fair Treatment for the Women of Wales @FTWW_Wales  Riannon Palmer @lemuhn_ Emma Goswell @emmagoswell @effinhormones Karen Arthur @thekarenarthur @menopausewhilstblack Sources: BUPA Research https://bit.ly/3u0EFuR Channel 4 survey https://bit.ly/3UXkF8d Workplace menopause policies https://bit.ly/3EE3UI2 Fastest growing workplace demographics https://bit.ly/3EI26y6 Resources: Henpicked free resources: https://henpicked.net/menopause-hub/resources/ Rachel Lankester's book https://magnificentmidlife.com/book/ Fair Treatment For The Women of Wales Menopause Campaign Map your symptoms with the Balance App Where to find a menopause clinic in your area  Get in touch: Follow us on Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok @mediastormpod Email us [e-mail] Media Storm is an award-winning podcast brought to you by the house of The Guilty Feminist and is part of the Acast Creator Network. The music is by @soundofsamfire.   Become a member at https://plus.acast.com/s/media-storm. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen closely. That's not just paint rolling on a wall. It's artistry. A master painter, carefully applying Benjamin Moore-Regal-select eggshell with deftly executed strokes. The roller, lightly cradled in his hands, applying just the right amount of paint.

It's like hearing poetry in motion. Benjamin Moore, see the love. Paramoose. Check out the big stars, big series, and blockbuster movies. Streaming on Paramount Plus. Cue the music. Like NCIS, Tony, and Ziva. We'd like to make up her own rules.

Tulsa King. We want to take out the competition. The substance. This balance is not working. And the naked gun. That was awesome. Now that's a mountain of entertainment. Helena, do the women in your life ever talk to you about menopause?

Really, no. The only reason I know my mum has been through menopause is because she came into my room once, just holding some sanitary towels in her hand, and was like, Helena, do you want these? Because I don't need them anymore. And they just left the room. She never complained about any of the symptoms

that she was experienced if she was. No, no, I once asked her about that much, much later on. She said she didn't really experience any bad symptoms at all. She was kind of bragging, actually. That's the only reason I know my mum even went through menopause, and that's the only kind of conversation I had about it. I have had a bit of that chat. So since we started Media Storm last year,

I've had a couple of women godmother types, suggests that we do an episode on menopause. And my mum also started opening up a bit only really recently, and it was basically when Davina McCool's Channel 4 documentary came out last May. That was actually quite extraordinary. I often hear the name Davina McCall when people talk about menopause. I think someone as famous as Davina doing that documentary really did mean that people spoke about it more. Like it had over 2 million views and an immediate tangible impact on the health sector.

Like tens of thousands of doctors and nurses were taking training courses. There was a demand for HRT that surged and headlines. Yes, headlines. We've seen an explosion of headlines on everything menopause, HRT shortages, sex life impact, the fact that one in ten women surveyed by Channel 4 quit their jobs due to menopause. And that last statistic really caught our eye because it wasn't just menopause that women asked us to cover. It was being an older woman at work and all the unspoken, unreported issues that come with it. And as you and I have learned since doing this investigation,

There's a bit of an issue with hinging all those workplace problems on menopause. There's also a bit of an issue with the statistics going around about exactly how many women leave work and why. How big a problem is menopause at work actually? Have things changed since the story hit the limelight? And how do we talk inclusively about this experience when it's just so different for everyone? This week, Helena and I are tackling the problem together, asking employees and employers about whether, With all this talk, anything has actually changed. Then we'll meet back in the studio with some very special guests

to discuss everything about this media storm. One million women could be forced out of their jobs as they go through. The men are. Fear is making exceptions for menopausal women will alienate employers. Ma, have you been more forgetful than usual? Does anyone else have symptoms from these pills? Like, I don't know, three nipples. Yeah.

We are talking about this subject on television. It used to be a tribute subject. Welcome to Media Storm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. I'm Helena Wadia. And I'm Matilda Mallinson. This week's investigation. Menopause, ageism, sexism. What is driving women out of work?

In the past few years, Westminster has housed a few debates around menopause. Should menopause training be mandatory at medical school? Should menopause prescriptions be, free of charge, and should it be a legal obligation for workplaces to have menopause support policies in place? On its website, Parliament lists the findings of a 2019 survey that estimates almost 900,000 women in the UK have left work due to menopause. The post warns how harmful this could be for economic productivity, with women retiring at the peak of experience, as well as gender diversity in senior roles.

Yet still, in 2022, 72, 75% of workplaces have no menopause policy in place. What does that mean for individuals on the ground? Okay, so I've been invited to join this Facebook forum, my first time on Facebook in a while. It's a menopause support group, 6,000-plus members. I'm going to ask, how much of a problem is this really? Oh, there's my first message. I'm self-employed. That would be an interesting perspective, actually.

I left my job in the civil service. Yeah, there's more messages coming in. Mel, I haven't yet had the experience of having to leave, but feel it's going that way. Sarah, I took voluntary redundancy due to being put on a sickness disciplinary during perimenopause. I felt bullied, harassed, embarrassed, and completely naked. Evidently, this is a problem,

but everyone's situation seems quite unique. Let's dive into them a little bit more. There was lots of posters up, had emails being sent round about the support for women going through menopause. And the ironic thing about it is, as I used to look at all this stuff and think, it's a bit over the top, is it not? First up, Karen Ferguson,

who was working in the civil service when she became perimenopausal in her 40s, though she didn't know it was perimenopause at the time. I just couldn't cope anymore. I didn't understand what was happening to me. You start getting all these things that are going through your head going, am I actually getting some sort of dementia? Have I got a brain tumour?

You know, all these different things are going through your head. You don't recognise yourself. Karen tells me that it all started with a new line manager who came in and demoted her, in her mind, unfairly so. I do believe that if I hadn't had been perimenopausal at the time of all that happening, I would have been able to stand my ground better, but I just basically went in, really embarrassed and really feeling as though I had done something horrendously wrong

and basically went and hid in the corner for the night. Eventually, Karen was validated in her opinion that she'd been unfairly demoted. He kind of stumbled over these words and went away to investigate and came back to me the following night and apologised and did reinstate me, but it just wasn't the same after that. She felt unable to cope and unable to understand why. I end up going to see my GP about it,

and it was just put down to stress, and I was actually signed off work. Karen tried the civil services mental health contact, but never received a response. It was only by going to an external helpline that someone suggested her symptoms could be menopausal. What I find quite ironic is for an organisation that signposted so much help and support for the menopause. There wasn't really anybody there. They talk a good game. Just need to look a bit more at what they actually do. Next up, Lisa Nichols, who lives in Newport. South Wales. When Lisa started experiencing perimenopause at 45, she, like Karen, didn't realise

what it was. I just felt like maybe I was getting older, feeling tired and exhausted as a result of my job. As well as hot flushes, exhaustion, body aches and changes to her sleep pattern, Lisa's mental health was also being significantly affected by menopause. It got particularly worrying and frightening when I saw. started having suicidal thoughts. Now, that's not to say that I had a plan. All I know was that I was waking up in the morning, wishing that I hadn't. I just felt like I couldn't continue to function in my job, in my home life, in my social life, feeling the way that I was feeling. I just felt like I had nothing to contribute. My self-esteem was probably rock bottom.

Lisa didn't feel able to speak about what was happening at work. My line manager was obviously perimenopause as well. And I quickly got the attitude that it was just something that you've got to get on with. And I think that happens to a lot with women's health. You know, you have a baby, you go back to work. You've got to get on with the cooking, the cleaning, the washing up, the shopping, the looking after your parents, looking after your children. When women have something wrong with them, you just got to get on with it.

My line manager would be in work with a really bad migraine as a result of her perimenopause. And she was seemingly just getting on with it. Due to her symptoms and lack of support, Lisa ended up leaving her job. I never had that conversation with anyone in work. I felt like I was being asked to do such a long list of tasks, not being able to do them perfectly or to 100% of my ability. And I just felt like I was sinking under the pressure. of it all. What was the effect of leaving your job? What affected that have on you and

your life? Oh my gosh, it's been tremendous. I guess my financial status has gone from high to exceptionally low. I barely make enough to pay my bills. And in some respects, Helena, I don't have too many regrets about that. My quality of life is more important than having a bank balance, but of course it does limit my lifestyle choices. I have to be very frugal. My partner still wants to do all of those things, but I can no longer afford it. That's put a lot of pressure on my relationship. If I had had the support in work, I don't think I would have ever left my job. If I had had the support from my GP, I wouldn't have left my job. If there had been more training, more education, I probably would never have left.

Menopausal women are one of the fastest growing workforce demographics, but how many of them are sitting at work wondering whether to quit? I work in finance and every day is crazy. You know, I work there a long time. We're talking about 16 years. Women like Lucy, not her real name. Our next source asked to stay anonymous because she's still in what she feels to be an increasingly uncomfortable work environment for someone going through menopause. I think I'm an odd one because I'd got diagnosed under 45. I'd noticed I was getting a lot more tired. My sleep was very poor.

My memory has never been great, but it was just getting shocking depression as well. The brain fog is probably one of the worst ones and quite a scary one, because you just have these complete blanks. Where does that leave you now? have you received any support from your employer? I am very close to leaving. I haven't felt supported at all by my company and especially my line manager. I'm expected to deliver the same as anybody else.

I get told in very insensitive comments like speed up. I need to build more stamina. There's been no compassion whatsoever. I felt very stigmatised. You know, you can end up feeling like you're a burden, and you're making things up about how the menopause is impacting you or you're just being difficult by asking for some reasonable adjustments. These ones are torn and started to leave me in tears afterwards.

What reasonable adjustments would you need to feel able to stay in work? I think my managers should go through some refresher training or given some guidance just to help with that compassion and a bit of understanding and possibly avoid insensitive. of comments being made because they are hurtful. This is a normal stage of a woman's life and you don't want to be stigmatised for it. What about people who are self-employed, who lack the peer support or workplace guidance that many women we spoke to relied on to recognise their symptoms as menopausal?

Julie, for example, withstood seven years of symptoms before finally being diagnosed with perimenopause. I started to have symptoms at 33, things like heart palpitations, tiredness, insomnia. I actually thought I had some debilitating disease. In one week, I think I rang four times to the doctor. And she said, well, we think it's all in your head. I broke down when I got off the phone from that. I thought I was losing my mind. But I pushed for blood test.

I said, could it be my hormones? The doctor said, don't be so silly. You are far too young. I pushed and pushed and changed doctors, and eventually it came back that I was postmanapausal. It's been a long slog because I'm now 51. Being self-employed, what support did you feel you were lacking that you might have enjoyed if you were in a company workplace? I needed to speak to other women in my peer group that I wasn't going crazy.

I also needed probably some financial help, getting any sort of pay or sickness pay. It's very, very difficult when you're self-endiping. boy. I was a single mom and then I married my husband. But some days I would get home from work and literally fall flat face down on the bed with my shoes and coat on and have to sleep. It would have been nice to have a financial backup so that on those days where I was really struggling, I didn't have to then concern myself with, could I pay the rent? Could I get food? You say you were lucky because you married someone who was able to subsidise your income. What do you feel would have happened if you had stayed single?

I would have probably become unemployed and had to rely on benefits completely. I was fortunate. I know there are a lot of women that aren't. You know, a lot of women that lose their businesses and lose their homes. What could employers be doing to support workers like these women? And how many of them are actually doing it? It can be a policy, it could be a guidance document. We've seen some organisations that have an amazing intranet space

that is all dedicated to menopause. This is Sally Leach from Henpicked. Henpicked works with organisations to design tailor-made menopause policies and help them to become menopause accredited. It's about being able to have good conversations. One of the exercises we do at the beginning of most of the training is what words do we associate with menopause?

And the natural response will get is hot, tired, angry and old. If that's what we think of when we hear the word menopause, putting your hand up at work and saying, actually, do you know what, that's me? doesn't necessarily feel very comfortable for people. So one of the biggest things is changing perceptions for managers. We need to recognise managers aren't born with this knowledge. And actually, when we talk to a lot of managers around this,

they do really want to help and support. But there's a lot of nervousness about it. Am I going to say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing? I think we need to be very mindful of inclusion when it comes to talking about menopause. The recognition that not everyone going through menopause may identify as a woman. We also need to think that menopause is spoken about in different ways. in terms of thinking about different cultures.

Sally, how has uptake for your services been? Do you get many organisations coming to you? As an example in October, which was Menopause Awareness Month, we trained 10.5,000 people in that month. But still, it's estimated from the CIPD recently that still only around 30% of organisations have any kind of policy or guidance in place. For any employers listening,

Hemp picked his free resources on their website for your company to trial. We've shared the link in the notes below. it's one of those things I think you can take for granted that people would feel comfortable taking time off if they needed to because of these issues in their life that have come up but without having something real in practice people don't feel like they can take this time off that's ryan and palmer from the PR agency lemon in september of this year the company introduced a menstrual leave menopause and miscarriage policy it entitles employees to paid leave is suffering from menstrual or menopause symptoms which interfere with their ability to work

or in the event they suffer a miscarriage or pregnancy loss. Staff are also able to request work from where is most comfortable for them, including from home. It's been really well received by our employees so far. I have it in writing. I think it's much more comfortable for employees and the employer as well. What do you think are the biggest barriers that stop businesses from implementing a menstrual or menopause policy? I think for bigger organisations, it probably comes from that thing where it's quite hard to sign stuff off. That's kind of the beauty sometimes of a startup that you can implement stuff without having to worry about all these people above you.

I think it's just about making sure that there are people of all different representations in the decision-making room and not just one type of person that won't be able to understand everyone that's going to be using those facilities or working at that place. When Matilda and I started investigating this issue, hitting up forums and doctors and employers with questions about the great menopause exodus, we started to feel some bristling, didn't we? Yeah, it wasn't active resistance or anyone outright denying that this was a problem, but it was a reluctance to feed the conversation or fire it up any more than they felt it already had been. Not everyone agreed that it was helpful to talk about it,

as though it could give older women in the workplace a bad press or something. Some felt that the extreme experiences of a few had been painted as the experiences of the many, that not everyone experienced menopause symptoms with the same severity. And others felt that the whole thing was a distraction from the real problems faced by older women in the workplace. We were discussing this with a gynecologist who consulted us on this episode. She pointed us to some research that debunked many mainstream media. headlines about the numbers of women leaving work due to menopause. And so we reached out to the researcher behind this.

My name is Rachel Lancaster and I'm the founder of Magnificent Midlife, which is an online hub supporting women over 40. Rachel says menopause simply may be a catalyst to or an exposure of wider cultures of ageism and sexism at work. It's all too easy to just say, oh well, it's menopause. instead of looking at how do we treat women? We're aging from the day we're born, but there's a time in a woman's life

when we start to talk about aging. And it's usually when the signs of age start to kick in. So the wrinkles start to kick in. And the hair starts to change colour and maybe our hands look a little bit different. That is the stage when suddenly the aging that we have been doing since birth is suddenly wrong. So society knows what to do with us when we produce babies.

But when we lose our fertility, And when we can't produce baby anymore, it doesn't really know what to do with us. It tends to ignore us. And these things carry over into the workplace. Women can start to feel invisible. They can make themselves invisible by trying to cover up all of the signs of aging. They can shrink because perhaps they've brought into the narratives that maybe they're not as tech savvy as other people. Maybe they're not as driven as other women.

So we can apply ageist narratives to ourselves as well as what's going to be. on the workplace. Imposter syndrome is a lack of confidence. It's feeling that you don't deserve a seat at the table. And that goes back to this negative narrative about midlife, aging, menopause. It's drip-fed to us that we're going downhill rather than we're going up. Did our sources agree? Yes, physique changes when you go through menopause, the fat redistribute, particularly around the middle. I have had comments, am I pregnant? Everyone wants to feel that they're retracted no matter what. age, but unfortunately, you put menopause tag on that and it almost becomes like you're now unattractive. I work in, um, it's a very male dominated industry. I've been offered a pay

rise in return for sex. If I'm doing a good job, rather than saying that, I've been for a good girl. At times, I've been told I'm being emotional. The young, fiercely ambitious ones would kind of use the older ones experience to gain some insights, but then, pass stuff off as their own and completely disregard the person that had actually been there. Some people can feel as well you're trying to use your experience against them and trying to belittle them and that's not what you're doing. You're actually trying to offer your experience to support them and help them get better results.

Do statements like nearly 1 million women have left work because of menopause, quoted in varying forms as widely as Forbes, Bloomberg, the Guardian, and the House of Commons to name a few. Do these statements hide more than they reveal about the realities of working life for middle-aged women? Here's what Rachel found when she looked into the data. It was basically a PR survey done by Bupa. There was no demographic information other than that women were surveyed. And the survey explored four main female health events that caused women to take long-term lead.

Those were periods, fertility struggles, pregnancy and menopause, not just menopause. So they found that 4% total of 1,000. and women answered yes to a question. So what was the question? Have any of these four events caused you to leave work? It wasn't just menopause. And then they took that figure, which was 40 women. They extrapolated it to the entire UK population of women aged 18 to 70, not just women of menopause aid. They didn't accommodate women who weren't in the workplace. It's just completely false. So it's about giving a context and what happens is that people will throw out these big scary, their facts and figures, and then they'll just leave them hanging there.

She worries that putting too much emphasis on menopause as the reason women are leaving work stops us from asking wider questions about the role of ageism and sexism. Look at your organisation. Look at where the gaps are. Look at the leadership team. Have you got enough women there? Accommodating women without menopause in the workplace becoming another stick to beat women with. The patriarchy has enough reasons not to want to employ women. And I think the broader scheme of ageism, look at the culture, look at what the water cooler topic is, because when you become aware of ageism, you will see and you will hear it everywhere. So why do we feel the need to sensationalise this issue for it to be one

worth talking about? When so many women say they feel increasingly invisible with age, How can we give their experiences visibility without villainising a natural part of life? That takes us back to the studio. Thanks for sticking around. Welcome back to the studio and to Media Storm, the podcast that starts with the people who are usually asked last. Today we're talking about menopause, the intersections of ageism and sexism, and how older women, age and menopause are spoken about in the media. With us are some very special guests.

Our first guest is a speaker, model and writer who is the host of the amazing podcast Menopause Whilst Black, opening a well-overdue conversation about diversity in menopause, placing the experiences of black women front and centre. It's Karen Arthur. Hi, Karen. Hello, hello. Thank you for having me. Our second guest now is the author of Coming Out Stories,

a presenter and overall audio queen. She is the host of the podcast, F-in-Hormones, a group of mates, stumbling, swearing and supporting each other through perimenopause and beyond. It's Emma Gosswell. Hi, Emma. Yay. Thank you so much for asking me.

I'll tell you what was scary, though, in your introduction, when you said affecting older women, I was like, I'm old. This is officially an old thing. And then when you said, we've got some people to join us, and we've got some really old women to join us to talk about this. We need to know how to talk about.

this right because we don't even know how to title this episode because like what obviously what does old women even mean it's like a comparative term well I suppose it's fair enough isn't it if you're in your 20s being in your sort of even late 40s or early 50s is seen as older isn't it but I just even just hearing the word old I'm like they can't be talking about me I don't I'm 51 but I don't feel old we want to talk about the demographic that we're speaking about but why does saying older women feel so rude. It's not actually rude. Is it just what society has placed upon it

that makes it seem really rude? It's not rude. Being older is a privilege. I don't see it as a problem at all. I am older. It's a fact. We are older than you as a fact. And it's a fact that people go through menopause

at an older age than people who are your age. So I don't see an issue with that. I think the issue is society. And I think the issue is society's bonkers fixation on youth, if I'm honest. I'm 60 years old, so I have to own that I'm closer to depth than I am to life. So we need to decide what these terms mean. Absolutely. Well, let's kick off and let's start with just chatting through some of the biggest myths and stereotypes that have arisen about menopause from the media. Now, as we've established,

we're all different ages here, but I wonder when everyone first heard the word menopause, and what the initial impressions we had were. Karen, why don't you start? When did I first hear the term menopause? Wow. When I was going through it, which was at 51, 52, it's complicated like most things because my mother called it the change.

Subliminally, I knew that the change in menopause were the same thing, but no one was using the term menopause. So first time, properly that I made the connection and with myself, I would say, when I was going through it. And I was actually post-menopausal because it had been over a year since I'd had my last period. I mean, I never did biology at school. I don't think I was aware of it for a very long time, to be honest. I'd never really seen my mother experience any symptoms, or she did.

She never really displayed them, and she'd certainly never talked about it. But it was this mythical thing that nobody really talked about, and I didn't really know what it was. And then I always remember this awful, then how to describe it, like a trinket, I guess, that someone had bought my mother, and it was like a wooden cut-out figure of a cartoon, stereotypical menopausal woman, and it was this very old lady in very frumpy clothes with literally like a tabard on and like really wrinkly stockings and wiry hair just sticking out of her head. And then over the top it said, I don't call them hot flushes. I call them power surges. So in a way, I think it was supposed to be putting a positive spin.

been on the menopause, but all the stereotypes were there about you being frumpy, about you being really old, really unattractive, and just talking about the hot flushes. That's all I knew about, really, just looking at this thing in the kitchen. That's all I ever knew about. It certainly wasn't spoken about in school. I can't even remember when I heard the word menopause, but all I remember is that it had negative connotations around it. Yeah, I think I came across it watching sex in the city, which is apparently my most reliable source of sex education. Watch out, world. But I think for a lot of us, because it's missing in schools and because our moms often haven't

felt comfortable enough to talk about it historically, a lot of what we do come across is from the mainstream media. And something we've noticed is that a lot of this coverage will focus on menopause as an overwhelmingly negative experience. possibly as a disease in need of medical treatment or fixing. And so a question I ask as a journalist is how does the media draw awareness to the real-life impact of menopause without clouding it in unconstructive negativity? Well, that's a question. It sounds like an essay question, but I mean, that's a proper academic question,

that isn't it? You can start with that one, Karen. Discuss. I love you too, Emma. The media does that, though. doesn't it? The negative stuff sells. It gets people to click. So I get that. And for swathes of people, menopause can be a terrible experience. People are leaving work. They are suffering from brain fog. They don't know what's going on. The media does like to focus on symptoms. And I'm talking about the physical stuff. They do like to focus on hot flushes and tingly legs and all of that.

What we need to realise is that there are 34 symptoms and counting. Remember, we only know the symptoms because they've only just started researching about menopause. So we've got a long way to go. But the other side to this is, I'm thrilled that we're talking about it. I think the more conversations we have, especially intergenerational conversations, it means that when it does become your term, you will find it a lot easier because you've had these conversations, you're aware of what's going on, you might be more aware of what's going on with your body, and it's not going to hit you like a brick wall.

I mean, I think we are in the midst of a menopause revolution, actually, and part of the reason why we started effing hormones, the podcast, was because even three years ago when we were talking about it, when we set it up, there wasn't that much talk in the mainstream media about the menopause. But, you know, things have exploded over the last two years. But actually, a lot of people on our podcast have talked about the fact that there are some positive sides to it as well. And, you know, it is referred to as the change. And a lot of people, and we've spoken about it as well, I've talked about how you do go through a change, but that doesn't mean that it's all negative. You do change and grow as a person as well, you know, and there are good things about getting older, and you do get wiser and you do take less crap. Absolutely. Can we swear on this podcast? Yeah, swear away. That's good.

Because I do feel like part of going through menopause and going through it all and understanding your body and understanding yourself more, you just give less of a shit about the little stuff, don't you? You just take less shit. It's only a mid-life crisis because we don't know about menopause. Menopause has been liberating for me because your boundaries get better. You learn to only do things or really go towards the things that you really like doing. You're less of a people, please. And you don't give much.

You don't give much. Full stop. I'm really trying to be a good girl. I'll let Emma do the swearing. Yeah, now we know swearing is loud. The tone is about to shift. So all these myths and these stereotypes that we have learned from the mainstream media and other places, I guess it's that they're all wrapped up in the most common language

that's used around menopause. Because I remember hearing the word menopause in the media always with the prefix of the dreaded, the dreaded menopause. And then there were loads of stories about weight gain and there's loads of stories about going crazy. And I guess, you know, is it that scaremongering language that we need to change? I'm so tired of that. I'm so tired. It's patriarchy. Listen, 94% of, isn't it 94% journalists and white? And then 55% are men. It's about keeping us in our place. It's about keeping us small. It's about us and our usefulness towards men, whether it's being sexy, whether it's having kids,

whether it's being a mother, whether it's serving, it's all of that stuff. I think we're learning to get over that, and I think we get over it by continuing to talk and continuing to say no to the things that don't serve women in particular or people who experience menopause, I will say, because it's not just women. They're well said, absolutely. Trans men and non-binary people, absolutely.

But no, I think you're right, Karen, and I think, yeah, it is the patriarch at work, but which has been so strong that even women haven't dared talk about it. So this is the problem that we've all got because our mothers never warned us. No one never talked about it. People literally grinned and bared it. We spoke to somebody whose mother had such a breakdown around the age of 50. She was taken away.

People were taken away and put in, you know, to use a really old phrase, like lunatic asylums because, you know, it's the same as like hunting witches in whatever century that happened. It's putting women down. It's just taking women out of the conversation and just not letting them engage in society anymore. Yeah, definitely. Now, now that we have the chance to chime in, I'm really curious what your opinion is of what's the laugh?

I was laughing because now that we've got the chance to chime in, meaning Emma and Karen, shut up. No, I mean, now that women have the chance to chime in on the conversation. I thought the same, Carol, I thought, well, it's their own fault for inviting podcasts and it's on to a podcast, isn't it? And the two loudest ones as well. Now that women have the chance to chime in on the conversation, I want to get your thoughts on some of the conversations that I've seen being played out in the media

that I don't really know what to think of. And one of the ones that comes to mind is the HRT conversation. For decades, there's been a lot of scary narratives around HRT and its associated risks with breast cancer. And what is known is that I think there is a small increased risk of breast cancer and women taking HRT, but there's never been a study which shows any increased risk in death from breast cancer and having a scan through headlines. Many of them don't accurately represent the issue. So I'd be keen to know from your insights. What effect does the media reporting of HRT have on the use of the therapy, stigma around it? What's your view?

The media reports about HRST stopped me taking HRT at least three years before I needed to take HRT. And I'm really angry that this happened. And it happened in the worst possible way because those reports that said there was a big link to breast cancer are a really old study that was done on only women over 50 and on an old type of HRT that people in this country don't take. So it's completely irrelevant. But that study and the promotion of it by the mainstream media had so much traction that everybody believed it. People stopped taking it overnight. And unfortunately, my sister was reading all this, all the bad stuff and believed it. And she had breast cancer, which she died from in 2020. And she always said to me, Emma, you know, I know you're going

for the menopause and I know it's difficult, but don't take HRT because she just did not want me to get breast cancer as well. So for years, I just did not take HRT because I wanted not to go against my sister. I didn't want Abigail to have died in vain and then me to get breast cancer as well. so I just thought, I can't possibly take HRT. And it was all a pack of fucking lies. You know, I'm not going to get breast cancer because I'm taking some HRT. I probably am not, you know. But HRT has saved my life, I have to say.

And I feel bad that Abigail didn't see the repercussions of me finally taking the HRT and getting the help that I needed. Because at the end of the day, it was just my effing hormones. And HRT helped me. So I'm really glad that I eventually did the right research. and found the information that I needed and had a long journey to getting HR to. What that story shows actually is, like, how exploitative those headlines are because of the, they actually exploit the fears of people going through health crises

in order to sell papers. The media cannot reflect society if society is not reflected in the media. So if we have, you know, fewer and fewer older women, fewer and fewer people going through the menopause in newsrooms, then of course it's not going to be accurately represented. And of course those sensationalist headlines are going to win out. Let's delve a bit deeper into that intersectionality then, because, you know, do we still see mostly one view of menopause in the media? You know, the white middle class, middle-aged, privileged, cis woman. You know, Karen, is this why you start?

You know what? I started menopause whilst black, the podcast, because it was necessary. And I looked around and it was very clear that no one else was going to do it. I wanted to make connections with black women who were also going through menopause, experiencing hot flushes. And I wanted to know how they were doing. I started a survey because I wanted to know if there was any research around menopause and black women in particular, black UK women. And the research was from 2007. And there were 207. 22 people in that research. And I thought if you were doing research, you'd have to have like 100 or something.

That's not even a bus full that, Karen. That's pathetic, isn't it? So I did my own research asking black UK-based women about their experience of menopause or what they knew about it. And in the end, 400 people replied. And that blew me away. And out of that came, we want more information. So I started the podcast, I started interviewing black women about perimenopause and menopause.

It became groundbreaking. It was like, it's literally to black women sitting around a kitchen table or whatever online talking about menopause. But there is something powerful about hearing the stories of someone who looks like you or has a similar experience of you that makes you feel heard and listened to and not alone. But I think that's so great because I also do think that part of the reason that I never heard anything about menopause is because periods and menstruation is seen as very taboo in some South Asian cultures that I'm a part of. And I definitely think that menopause is wrapped up in that taboo about periods as well. And I was wondering actually, when thinking about this studio record, is that part of the reason? Is my culture part of the reason why I haven't heard? heard anything really about menopause, possibly?

It absolutely will be. And then, like, those voices are missing from the media. I mean, Karen, you pointed to the importance of seeing yourself represented and where this information is coming from. I mean, is that an issue that we also see in the LGBT plus community? Emma, like, do you have any insights? Has being part of that community impacted yours or others' experience of menopause, perimenopause, getting older?

Well, what was really interesting was we invited a trans man onto the podcast, and he was in a really, really difficult position and felt really, really, really isolated because was having, you know, all these supplements, was taking testosterone and was going through menopause symptoms as well, and felt incredibly isolated because couldn't talk to anybody, because to have that conversation with a group of strangers or to have that conversation at work would mean outing themselves as, you know, being born a woman. and going through menopause symptoms, so it was really, really isolated. So I think trans men and non-binary people have a very, very difficult experience of the menopause, and they really are very, very isolated. But in terms of being a lesbian, I mean, in a way, I feel very lucky. I think a lot of straight women struggle because men find it very, I'm massively generalising here, but I know that a lot of couples end up splitting up because men have no idea what is going on with their partner because their partner will start acting differently

and will be more angry and will be more emotional and will cry a lot and we'll have lots of problems and that causes a lot of couples to split up but maybe that's easier when you're dealing with another woman who's also been quite hormonal and gone through puberty and understands periods and the fact that your hormones are so connected to your well-being I mean that's a positive that I take from being part of my community Time now for a look at the headlines and articles on this topic that have made recent news. This is from The Guardian in June this year. Headline, Doctors Worn Against Over-Medicalising Menopause after UK criticism.

The argument in this article is that the heads of medical organisations are telling doctors not to prescribe HRT to everyone because of the safety risks it poses and the cultural stigma it reinforces. They also imply that women's negative associations with menopause, comes from its cultural stigma rather than responses to real symptoms. Here's a quote, while effective treatments are important for those with troublesome symptoms, medicalisation may increase women's anxiety and apprehension about this natural life stage. How did this article make you feel?

Angry. I'm going to rewrite the headline for you. It's basically some doctors say, don't bother us doctors with your medical problems because it'll only make you feel worse. Like, what? Your doctors? We want to have something prescribed. We'll have it prescribed.

Just fuck off, telling us what's... Oh, no, it really... It wound me up a lot, I have to say, listening to this article. It was like, who were these doctors writing in the British Medical Journal? Who are these idiots? I mean, oh, it just made me so angry. Yeah, there are still people turning up to doctors who were asking for HRT and the doctor saying,

no, you're too young. Or dismissing their, you know, their own... symptoms about their own bodies. But I think the sentence that got to me was healthcare providers should take an individualised approach. Full stop. That's it. You look at the headline, you go, oh, for God's sake. And then you read further in. And that sensible sentence is buried right at the bottom. Yeah. I'm sure there was some very sensible stuff they said. And in fact, one part of it is we've already talked about, HRT is not the answer for every single woman that goes to their doctor. And there will be other stuff that they can be doing. And doctors can talk

about that as well and that's 100% right. But the fact is women still should ask for it if they think it's right for them and they need to try it, don't they? The second headline that we want to talk about is from this month in The Sun. Headline, Menopause stunt, woke, anti-terobos wears special menopause jacket in quote, gender equality stunt. So Matt Dukes, who's the Met Police Assistant Commissioner, wore a jacket. that simulated a menopausal hot flush in a meeting to raise awareness during menopause awareness month. He received a lot of criticism for this, such as from a former Scotland yard chief, growing public concern about the police's ability to deal effectively with crime

will be further undermined by this woke stunt. Perhaps Matt Dukes could be encouraged to put on a blue uniform next time and walk the streets at night to understand what it is to be a real policeman. We're keen to find out what you think of Matt Jukes' stunt and of the criticism that he received for it. It made me angry, actually, because the term upset me, the term woke, basically taken a term that was actually used, started to be used in the 18th century and then came back into use of the 60s by the black community, by African Americans, and then it became more prevalent and linked to the Black Lives Matter movement in 2014. team when Michael Brown was murdered. And I feel like the right-wing establishment have taken that

word and turned it into this derision. Woke isn't a derogatory term, you know. But as for what he did, it means that the hot flush becomes a thing. So we're back to menopause is hot flushes, and it's not the case. There are many people who do not have hot flushes. There are people who have tiny little warm flushes, you know, or people who don't have anything at all. So whilst I understand what he was doing, at the same time, I couldn't get past the headline. That is all. Over to you. Emma. Fair point. Karen, thank you very much. Yes. Now, I'm sure that these menopause jackets were designed by other people who wanted to publicise the effects of the menopause

and talk about the effect of menopause in the workplace and they are done with brilliant aims behind them. And if it gets more people talking about the menopause, then fair play. And fair play to him for wearing it. And I know other people wore them on national radio as well. And a lot of men have been wearing them just to see. And I think it's a great mechanism actually for getting men to sort of start thinking about it and maybe just experiencing one of the many, many, many symptoms. But the actual article itself is just sun bullshit from start to finish, isn't it really?

Because basically, I guarantee that that journalist could have wrung 20 different police chiefs who probably would have gone, oh, fair play, well done to him. That's a great idea. They should be thinking about their menopause policy and they should be talking about menopause in the workplace. And they've found one prick who's called it a woke stunt and they've put him in the headline. And, you know, it's a bullshit story, isn't it?

It's a non-story. It's a non-story, isn't it? Spot on, spot on. It's clickbait. And it gets us upset and I can feel my blood pressure going up, man, going to have to go and dance to dance it off. I love that. Yeah, like who needs hot flushes from the menopause when you've got the sun, like, stirring up your body panel show every time you look at a headline.

Right, and on that note, I think we're going to wrap the show up. But before we leave, can you tell us, please, where everyone can follow you? And do you have anything to plug? Coming Out Stories is my podcast, which does what it says on the tin. It's people from the LGBTQ plus community. And that is at Coming Out Stories on Twitter. You can buy a book as well, should you wish to. Please do go and find the rather brilliant award-winning podcast, effing hormones,

which I do with my brilliant friends, Helen Beena and Terry. And we're into our second season now. We've got some great guests coming up as well. So do go and find effing hormones wherever you get your podcasts. I run, host the podcast, Menopause, Whilst Black, which has just dropped episode one of season four. I am also someone who talks about fashion and mental well-being, and so if you go to 64 million artists' website,

you can sign up to the January Challenge, which is 31 days of fun things to do that are free, that will lift your mood and make you feel great about the fact that it's January 2023. And if you are a black woman or a black person, experience in any stage of menopause, and you want to come to Barbados next year with me to join us for the Joy Retreat, then you can contact me via my podcast or via my Instagram, Menopause Whilst Black, and I will send you more details.

There are a couple of places left. Thank you for listening. We'll be back next week with our crossover series with the Guilty Feminist, This is How You Do It. And our guest will be Leanne Alley, host of the Coiled podcast. And then on Thursday, the 8th of December, we'll be bringing you our final investigation of this season. looking at death and dying, the cultural statement around death and what it means for people

facing it. Follow MediaStorm wherever you get your podcast so that you can get access to new episodes as soon as they drop. If you like what you hear, share this episode with someone and leave us a five-star rating and a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast and our aim is to have as many people as possible hear these voices. You can also follow us on social media at Matilda Mal at Helena Wadia and follow the show via

at MediaStorm Pod. Get in touch and let us know what you'd like us to cover or who you'd like us to speak to. Media Storm, an award-winning podcast from the House of the Guilty Feminist is part of the ACOS creator network. It is produced by Tom Salinsky

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