Media Storm - S2E2 Post-Roe v. Wade: How safe are UK abortion rights? - with Renee Bracey Sherman

Starting point is 00:00:00 Well, it's been quite an intense couple of weeks, hasn't it? Helena, that's an understatement. Almost like we've gone completely backwards in the fight for reproductive rights. Well, not almost like, that's just what's happened. Yeah, we have. It was in 1973 that abortion was made legal across the US after a landmark ruling referred to as Roe v. Wade. Now, two weeks ago, the US Supreme Court overturned that right.

Starting point is 00:00:37 Half of all US states are expected to introduce new restrictions or total bans on abortion. Many already have. It means that many women and people who need abortions are having to travel further, often across state borders, and pay more. And, as expected, these bans will affect the most marginalised, poor women, queer people, women of colour and migrant women. Yeah, the news made me feel numb.

Starting point is 00:01:05 To think that in a country which touts itself as a global leader in women's rights, men are sitting in a room legislating what women should and shouldn't do with their bodies. Like, I have to admit hearing it, I just felt lucky that I live in the UK. Well, you say that, but I'm not sure how many people know that abortion is a crime in the UK. Sorry, what do you mean? It's a little complicated, but bear with me. In England, Scotland and Wales, abortion isn't legal unless it's been signed off by two doctors and takes place within the first 24 weeks of pregnancy.

Starting point is 00:01:52 So that's the 1967 Abortion Act. And the two doctors that give the permission, they have to decide that the pregnancy would hurt the pregnant person's physical or mental health more than if the pregnancy were terminated. Right. So if, for example, someone buys abortion pills online because they can't get to a clinic, what could happen? Well, they could face life in prison. That's under the 1861 Offenses Against the Person Act. And that's a law. that was invented before women even had the right to vote. Oh, shocking. How did that? But, okay, okay, I'm just reeling a bit from life in prison,

Starting point is 00:02:37 but in reality, does this actually happen? Like, are people getting prosecuted for abortions in the UK? Well, it may be more common than we think. I've been speaking to doctors, activists, and leading abortion providers in the UK to find out just how restrictive the system here actually is. And I'll see you back in the studio with a very special guest to discuss everything around this media storm. The Supreme Court has now overturned Roe v. Wade. There are very

Starting point is 00:03:10 strong emotions on either side of that debate. That's like murdering a person if you think of it. They think that women have an absolute right to bodily autonomy. My personal opinion is that life begins at a point of conception and abortion is morally in defense. You and Maker have that lady. They celebrated what they call a win for life. Welcome to MediaStorm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. I'm Helena Wadia and I'm Matilda Mallinson. This week's investigation, abortion post-Rovey Wade, how safe are UK reproductive rights. A 24-year-old woman in England is facing a charge of procuring abortion.

Starting point is 00:03:50 She ordered the abortion medication Misoprotol online. and took it at home in January of last year. She faces life imprisonment. Are you shocked? I was. Abortion is a crime in England, Scotland and Wales. Here's Catherine O'Brien, Associate Director at B-Pass,

Starting point is 00:04:10 the British Pregnancy Advisory Service, a leading abortion care provider. I think that the vast majority of the public, I would say that until quite recently, probably the vast majority of members of Parliament, were not aware that the 1967 Abortion Act did not decriminalise abortion. It provided a legal defence for women and healthcare professionals so that it could be provided within a certain set of circumstances.

Starting point is 00:04:38 However, if an abortion is performed or a woman ends their own pregnancy outside of the terms of the Abortion Act, so for example, buys pills online because they can't get to a clinic, then women can still face up to life imprisonment. for ending their own pregnancy from the moment that a fertilised egg implants into the womb. And I think that that is absolutely shocking to most people. You mentioned there perhaps a situation where somebody wouldn't be able to get to a clinic. What are some of the other situations that women find themselves in that they might be subject to this kind of law?

Starting point is 00:05:14 Certainly if women aren't able to access NHS funded services because of their immigration status, for example, that can mean that for these women paying privately for in-clinic care is too greater cost, it's too much of a barrier. So these might be women for whom online abortion medication may seem like their only option. Also for very vulnerable people who, you know, are afraid of either a partner finding out that they're pregnant or young women for whom, you know, they are anxious about their parents, finding out that they're pregnant, this can lead to circumstances in which people feel that accessing clinic services is just not something they feel comfortable doing.

Starting point is 00:06:06 So how often does real prosecution happen for people who seek abortions? In 2012, a woman was denied abortion care five weeks over the 24-week limit. By the time she gave herself an abortion using men, medication, she was 40 weeks pregnant. She was jailed for eight years. In 2016, a Northern Irish woman was given a suspended sentence for taking abortion pills that she had bought online after her housemate reported her to the police. Last year, a 15-year-old girl who had an unexplained early stillbirth was subjected to a long criminal investigation where her phone and laptop were seized and examined for evidence. Police dropped the case after

Starting point is 00:06:50 the test concluded the baby had been still born because of natural causes. There are more cases. It's been found that police in England and Wales have recorded 67 cases of procuring an illegal abortion in the last 10 years. This legal framework is more restrictive than most European countries and it seems that even taking the legal route comes with complications. Maya Oppenheim is the women's correspondent for the Independent. I didn't realise what a nightmare, you know, trying to get an abortion would be. I was shocked to find out how difficult it was. As a journalist that covers women's stories globally,

Starting point is 00:07:29 she's very aware of the nuances of seeking an abortion in England. However, when Maya found out she was pregnant, she described trying to get an abortion as a nightmare. I was told I would have to wait three weeks for a phone consultation for an abortion. That I was staggered by. That would mean I would not have the actual abortion until a month after requesting the procedure. This would have left me with just a couple of weeks away from the 10-week cut-off point for a medical abortion, which involves taking pills rather than having to go under general anaesthetic for a surgical abortion.

Starting point is 00:08:03 Well, obviously, abortions are safe. They are far riskier. Well, not far, riskier, but substantially riskier, the longer you are on in your pregnancy. You know, I said the obvious to them, I said, you know, this is a time-sensitive, incredibly sensitive. procedure and I'm not willing to wait that long. It was suggested that I would travel hundreds of miles to Doncaster or Liverpool for an in-person appointment. And you were based in London? Yeah, based in London. So, yeah, I didn't go to Liverpool or Doncaster. But where you did end up having to go was Kent. Were you shocked that you couldn't get an abortion as easily or as quickly

Starting point is 00:08:37 where you live? Yeah, I was really shocked. It's not made clear by the NHS what a postcode lottery the UK is when it comes to abortion services and you know how far women are having to travel to have an abortion in this country but yeah so I knew it was a postcode lottery but I thought it would be okay as I was in London now that sounds you know horribly London centric it's not fair that you know I should have it should be easier for me to access an abortion than women in other parts of the country but I thought I'd be okay because I was in London but no I was panicking because I was thinking oh god I've got to continue with my job I've got to keep everything going and I'm And I don't want to be pregnant. And this is feeling like torture, you know, getting progressively more pregnant for this baby that I do not want. So I was feeling a bit panicky because I was feeling like I really want to get this abortion. When am I going to get it? And so, yeah, you feel quite helpless and overwhelmed. From, you know, the research I've been doing and from hearing your story, it just seems like there isn't a particular effort to make these services as good as they can be. Do you agree with that? And why do you think that is?

Starting point is 00:09:44 Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. When you kind of dig into looking at these services, you can just see how shambolic a lot of them are. And that is not the fault of hardworking committed abortion providers. These are systemic top-down issues. The government needs to address these issues. And I just think that the argument sometimes isn't framed in a fair way. Recent research by UGov and MSI, that's a leading UK abortion provider previously found nine and ten UK adults think women should be able to access abortion. services in Britain. They specifically identify as being pro-choice. There's a big consensus in this country that abortion and the right to choose, you know, is something that should be entrenched and it's a human right. And it's essentially healthcare. It's not a criminal. It's not something that should be subject to criminalisation. It's true. Several studies and polls have shown that the majority of the UK is pro-choice. Medical associations and human rights charities all back abortion and say abortion is healthcare. So why does the law remain unchanged? Here's Catherine from B-pass again. I would point to our current government. Unfortunately, we've had a number of

Starting point is 00:10:56 ministers who have not at all been supportive of abortion access. So for example, Sajid Javid, as Health Secretary did not support the continuation of pills by post and effectively wanted to recriminalise that. When Sajid Javid was Home Secretary, he blocked moves to introduce buffer zones around clinics, which would have prevented anti-choice harassment of women in healthcare staff. We have Jacob Rees-Mogg. Are you completely opposed to abortion in all circumstances? Yes, I am. Rape and insect? Sexual violence. I'm afraid so. Life is sacrosanct. So what we have is at the top of governments, some really individuals that are so out of touch with public opinion on this, and I would suggest many other issues.

Starting point is 00:11:45 And it's very, very difficult to see how we move forward in a progressive way when, as I say, there's so many people sitting around the table at the top that just have such archaic views on abortion. So does criminalisation in the UK come from archaic views upholding archaic laws? Only 10 years ago in 2012, the then Health Secretary Andrew Lansley ordered a series of unannounced investigations on abortion clinics. They are described by the clinics as politically motivated raids, not to do with the quality of care that was being provided,

Starting point is 00:12:21 but instead to comb through legal paperwork that could then be used to prosecute doctors. The hangover of the investigations is still felt today. Any doctor who provides an abortion outside the terms of the Act can also be criminalised. It potentially also has an effect on clinicians' willingness and, you know, to enter into this field because it's an area of healthcare that has such unique criminal sanction attached to it. It does deter clinicians.

Starting point is 00:12:51 Doctors for Choice is an organisation of doctors, nurses and midwives who campaigned for abortion rights. I met with Catriona Renison from the group at a hospital in East London where she works as a junior doctor and asked her why she thinks doctors might not want to specialize in abortion care. The sort of controversy with which abortion is usually portrayed in the media often puts off doctors because it's seen as this kind of scary, controversial area of medicine that a lot of people who may otherwise become involved in abortion care see that and think, why would I want to work in this area that might be subject to protests? And for a lot of people, that's just

Starting point is 00:13:34 not worth it. In reality, the vast majority of the UK is... is pro-choice, and it's an area of medicine that desperately needs more health professionals, not just doctors, to actively choose to be involved with. Because there's often a lot in the media, particularly when the role of doctors is brought up about conscientious objection, which is the right to opt out of providing abortion care for personal, religious or moral reasons. So any doctor at any point can opt out of providing an abortion? Yeah, the only time in which they can't is where the pregnant person's life is critically at stake. That's a pretty precarious situation for people who want to get abortions to be in, right?

Starting point is 00:14:18 To think that at any point, a doctor might say no. Just not to scare anybody, there is a duty in the law that if you are exercising your right to object, then you do need to refer the person on in a timely manner to a doctor who can fulfill the request, but that still puts the onus on the pregnant person to go to another appointment, maybe see a different doctor, maybe have to tell the story or the reasons why they want an abortion all over again to somebody else, which, you know, depending on your reasons, may or may not be traumatic, may or may not be distressing or uncomfortable. So it's an additional burden, additional hurdle to accessing care. Can only doctors provide abortions? Can nurses or

Starting point is 00:15:03 midwives. The way the law is worded is they need two doctors to sign the HSA1 form, the form that authorises an abortion. That can only be done by doctors. And doctors have to prescribe the medication if it's a medication abortion. If it's a, what we call a surgical abortion, then that again has to be doctors performing that. If the same procedure was being carried out for a miscarriage, a midwife would be able to perform that. But if it's carried out for an abortion, then a doctor has to do it. Why is that? It's the law. So it's preventing our really skilled nurses and midwives from providing care for having more slots open so more people can get timely care. Because there's only so many doctors. If you open it up, if you allow our skilled nurses and midwives to help

Starting point is 00:15:51 participate more in abortion care, you have better care for everybody. But at the moment, the law just doesn't allow that. I know. I haven't mentioned Northern Ireland yet. And that's because technically, Northern Ireland has the most pro-abortion laws in the UK. In 2019, there was a historic vote there to decriminalise abortion. But... Legislation is nothing without the access and the services to match it. That's right. Despite the decriminalisation vote three years ago,

Starting point is 00:16:22 the Northern Irish Health Minister, Robin Swan, has so far neglected to commission abortion services. Those seeking abortions are still forced to try. travel to England in order to terminate a pregnancy after 10 weeks. I caught up with Bethany Moore, a reproductive rights activist from Derry in Northern Ireland, about the reality of seeking abortion on the island. The abortion Northern Ireland regulations came in on the 31st of March 2020. So as you can imagine, there was something else kind of kicking off at that time in terms of,

Starting point is 00:16:56 you know, health and health services and pressures on the health service. and that was COVID. Our health minister, Robin Swan, he has been seen with anti-choice groups. He has, you know, attended different events and rallies and protests of theirs. So when he got the health seat, I'm sure he was horrified at, you know, COVID. But as convenient as a pandemic can ever be, it came at a good time for him because he was able to shift the focus. on record, 371 people have travelled during that first year of the pandemic from April 2020 to April 2021, from the north to England for abortion care that they should have had here. And I think it's

Starting point is 00:17:40 really, really important to emphasise that this is at a time where everything was shutting down. Flights were stopping. Ferrys were stopping. People were getting put out of work. People were being put on furlough. It is just horrendous. I think we have a lot of politicians here who are still happy to bury their head on the sand about abortion. It's imperative that I say about the wonderful work that our healthcare providers have done here. You know, it's not their fault that they've had deceased operations and different trusts at different stages of the year. This is purely down to the lack of commission services, the lack of funding. How can we expect our health care workers to work with nothing, really? You know, our healthcare providers here are fantastic. We trust them. But when it

Starting point is 00:18:25 comes to this one part of healthcare, suddenly we don't want to fund them, we don't want to support them, we don't want to help them, we don't want to trust them and trust their guidance and their judgment. So I think, you know, people here are really struggling to get that abortion care that we fought so hard for. So here's where we're left. Abortion decriminalised but no services in Northern Ireland and many services but criminalisation in England, Scotland and Wales. And now, post-Rovey Wade, there are fears America's decision will empower organisations in the UK to call for greater restrictions on reproductive rights. Here in the UK, US anti-abortion organisations run, fund and support a range of different activities, including centres that deter people from choosing abortion and protests outside abortion clinics. Recent reports, as Sophia Smith Gala, senior news reporter at Vice World News has found,

Starting point is 00:19:21 also shows they are providing funding to anti-abortion speakers to go into UK schools. An organisation called Society for the Protection of the Unborn Child has over the past couple of years received over £70,000 from an anonymous US donor. What's interesting about this story is it's one of the first times really we've been able to identify a proper paper trail. What is a bit concerning about the source of this funding in particular is we know where the tide is going with the United States and Spuck, I'll call them, that's the acronym.

Starting point is 00:19:57 Spuck, just like plenty of other anti-abortion groups in the UK right now, want to bring this discourse into the UK. Now, specifically, this US funding that they receive, this money is to be spent in two areas. in British schools and with British medical professionals. So that gives you a sense of who they are trying to target with this anti-abortion messaging. Theoretically, they aren't necessarily doing anything wrong. And if schools are saying, yes, please come in and talk to us, as some schools clearly are,

Starting point is 00:20:29 who has the responsibility here and who is the authority to say definitively, should this kind of conversation be allowed to go unchallenged in my kids' classroom, or in my students' classroom, if you haven't got lots of young people taught about things like their sexual and reproductive health rights and where they can access services, it really is a postcode lottery across the United Kingdom, where does that put us to make informed choices about our healthcare, and where does that put us when we encounter inaccurate misinformation, or half-truths in the wider world, off and online. So what does the future hold?

Starting point is 00:21:16 America's decision having ramifications here, or will the law catch up with public view? And if most people are pro-choice, how did the minority get to be so loud? That takes us back to the studio. Thanks for sticking around. Welcome back to the studio and to Media Storm, a news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. This week, we're looking at abortion, the situation in the UK and across the pond, and how reproductive rights are reported on.

Starting point is 00:21:53 And with us is a very special guest. She is the founder and executive director of We Testify, an organization dedicated to the leadership and representation of people who have abortions. The writer and reproductive justice activist has been hailed as the Beyonce, say of abortion storytelling. Plus, she's the co-author of countering abortion spraining out soon, so keep an eye open. It's Renee Bracey Sherman. Renee, thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for having me. It's both early and also I've been at the rally, so my voice is a little rough, so sorry to everyone. But I have to say, I love doing UK interviews because I love the way British people say abortion. Does it make it more palatable to talk about?

Starting point is 00:22:35 No, it just feels so light and refreshing. I just, I don't know, I love it. Yeah, I wouldn't use the words light and refreshing for what this podcast is going to talk about, but, you know. Yeah, laugh while you can. Renee, in the first half of this episode, we hear about how abortion in the UK is actually still criminalised. And many people don't actually know that.

Starting point is 00:22:59 But of course, what's dominating the news at the moment is the overturning of Roe versus Wade in America. It's a big question, but how did Roe v. Wade come to be overturned? What led to this moment? And how did you feel hearing the news? How I felt the day that the decision came down, it was really, really difficult. I've been working on this issue for over a decade. And this is something that black and brown activists have been warning about for over a decade. We have said, please take this seriously. I think the short answer of how we got here is white supremacy and anti-blackness

Starting point is 00:23:43 and people putting abortion as a separate issue and ignoring it and acting as if it's not an urgent matter and it's not central to economic justice and racial justice. The first bans on abortion came actually out of the UK. And then, of course, you know, because ever since after we all separate, from y'all. We've been best friends ever since. And so we follow a lot of what you do. And so when the bans on abortion first came in the UK in the very early 1800s, the United States started enacting some as well. And it was about the fear of non-white immigrants coming to the United States and black people starting to become free because we were starting to end slavery. And so white people in power were

Starting point is 00:24:34 afraid that black and brown people were coming in and we're going to take their political power. And so they started enacting abortion bans, not to control black and brown people, but to control white women because they wanted to make sure that they continued to have babies and that they would be able to rule and keep their power by population. Renee, this demographic analysis of history you're giving us, this demographic analysis of modern politics you're giving us, I feel like this is something we're only starting to talk about enough now. And it's led me cynically to wonder about the shock waves that the overturning of Roe versus Wade has sent around the world. You know, people are really, really

Starting point is 00:25:17 disturbed and outrage. But other modern controversies about restricted bodily autonomy haven't had such a response. There have been various incidents of forced sterilization, particularly of black and brown women continuing under Roe that haven't caused such controversy, a recent example being immigrant women in an ICE detention facility in 2020. You know, trans people have their bodily autonomy heavily restricted all over the U.S. UK and beyond. So do you think that one factor in the scale of the outrage is that this scandal will restrict bodily autonomy even for the most privileged white cisgender American women? White women in the United States love to look to El Salvador or other places in Latin America saying, how could this happen? They forget that these things are

Starting point is 00:26:05 actually already happening in the United States. And they've been happening to black and brown people. They just haven't paid attention. And I know that people think, well, white women, wealthy women will always be able to get abortions. No, because they are going to go for a national ban. So it is actually going to impact all of us. And that is where I think people need to understand how much white supremacy. If they come for me at night, they're going to come for you in the morning. Absolutely. Well, let's talk about how abortion is framed in the mainstream media. A big question is, is abortion reported on as more controversial than it actually is? In the UK, nine out of ten people are pro-abortion. By age 45, nearly one-third of all women in the United States will have

Starting point is 00:26:53 had an abortion. Do articles fail to mention how common abortion is? and how broad the support is for it. I mean, Renee, you coined the phrase everyone loves someone who had an abortion. Yeah, I mean, this is what my work centers around. Abortion is extremely common and it's actually extremely popular. Pick any president, abortion is more popular than it.

Starting point is 00:27:16 Over 80% of the American public believes abortion should be legal. Can you just explain that statistic over 80% of the U.S. population think abortion should be legal? Where's that data coming from? Because that is not the impression that we would get from the 50-50 debate we're seeing in the media. Well, that's what's wild about it, right?

Starting point is 00:27:32 So on Fox News, they asked their viewers, did they want Roe to be overturned? And over half said, no. Like, this is the Trump TV station. And still, we need a pro-life and a pro-choice voice discussing this debate on every show. As if it's a 50-50. You'll notice the polling. They asked the question, should abortion be legal in?

Starting point is 00:27:54 And then they'll say, no cases. only a few cases, some cases, most cases. A good, like usually 50, 60% say most cases. And then the other 20, 30% is made up from like those people that are saying some cases. So that's where it's like you get the majority, right? But what I think is frustrating, the majority of this country doesn't understand who has abortions and why. They think that every abortion is either somebody being slutty or a 14-year-old

Starting point is 00:28:26 raped. There's like nothing in the middle. And they also have a lot of judgment around those of us who are just like slutty, which shout out to us. It's fine. Like it's okay. I run an organization with people who've had abortions. We share our stories. And the whole goal was to change the way we're portrayed in the news. Because when I started doing this work a decade ago, I would watch the news. I'd read articles. And it was always people talking about abortion. And no one was saying that they had one. What would it look like if we change the conversation to include the stories of people have abortions? And here's how my story is actually going to challenge the preconceived notions that you have about abortion. The stereotypes and stigma that the anti-abortion

Starting point is 00:29:11 movement has pushed the fact that the majority of characters on television and film that have abortions are white, they're young, they're teenagers. The majority of people who have abortions in real life, are in their 20s, they already have children, they're people of color, and they're poor. You're getting this misinformation, even through well-meaning depictions. And so that's what my work focuses on is changing that conversation. We love that. And that's why we have you here, because of what you do, we testify. And what we do at Media Storm is try and center lived experience voices in the conversation. And with abortion, the conversation is so skewed, it seems, away from the actual experience of abortion. The experience.

Starting point is 00:29:52 of choice, away from lived experience and towards politics. You know, is this a conversation that should have fewer political voices and more medical voices and more lived experience voices? To me, it feels really simple. You would never put someone who is a doctor on a heart surgery up in a debate with someone who's literally never opened a medical textbook. And yet that is what happens constantly. The majority of the episodes we've done on these minority groups,

Starting point is 00:30:27 they all have some form of that both sides' narrative. I have to tell the story. I was working at a national newspaper here in the UK and I wrote a piece and created a video about these amazing activists who help get women and people who need abortion safely into the clinics. And they shield them from anti-abortion protesters outside the clinics. This is in America, calling them murderers and sinners, etc. These activists, they were really young.

Starting point is 00:30:50 They were teenagers and they used TikTok in a really innovative way. to do this. When I submitted this story, I got told I had to get the other side. And they said, no, you must interview these anti-abortionists who are calling women murderers and haws. And you must interview them and get their side and interview them for the same amount of time that you interviewed these activists. And I refused and the piece was pulled. But if I was at that time a younger, less experienced journalist, maybe I would have been forced to include that side. And then the problem is, then medical voices, people have lived experience, they often get pushed aside for this both sides debate i recently had a debate with a media outlets in the

Starting point is 00:31:33 united states they're a huge morning television show they wanted to put someone who's had an abortion up against someone who had an abortion and regretted their abortion which i want to be clear i believe that people have abortions whether they regret them or not are able to share their stories. That's their experience. But I explained to them in the way they were planning to do it, it's just not accurate. It makes it look like it's 50, 50. And we actually have data and it's 97 to 3. Even in that 3% of people who regret their abortions, it's not necessarily that they still want it to be illegal. So really, it's like 99 to 1. And so you're positioning it as 50-50. And that's actually just bad journalism. Absolutely. It's not just in media. It goes as far as

Starting point is 00:32:30 the halls of Congress because in the middle of May, after the leak, there was a hearing in the House Judiciary Committee in our Congress. And so one of the storytellers that I work with testified about having an abortion and then we had an abortion provider, the third witness that sat at the table in the room. It's the president of a very prominent anti-abortion organization. She testified that she believes that there's an abortion clinic in Washington, D.C. And when they get rid of the products of consumption, like the medical waste, the way you would any blood, tissue, whatever, anything else, like any hospital, sometimes they go to incinerators because it's biohazard. She believes that incinerator company that a lot of

Starting point is 00:33:16 hospital in the country use, that is being used to power. the lampposts in Washington, D.C. I wish I was making this up. Bodies thrown in medical waste bins and in places like Washington, D.C., burned to power the lights of the city's homes and streets. Let that image sink in with you for a moment. The next time you turn on the light, think of the incinerators. And so this is the type of person who gets quoted equally in equal amount of time as I do, someone who's had an abortion who actually understands the medical aspect of it.

Starting point is 00:33:57 Yeah, this is the fallacy in the mainstream media of what it means to get both sides of the story. Both sides means both political sides. The tick-bock exercise of impartiality in the media and scarily apparently in Congress is the left side and the right side. But not everything is a political issue, and that's what Helena and Renee, you've both just pointed to with those pretty disturbing

Starting point is 00:34:20 examples, is that actually maybe getting all sides of the story as a journalist on abortion means the side of someone who's undergone abortion, the side of someone who is a medical expert, the side of a social worker, but not necessarily the left side and the right side. I think this hyper politicization of abortion does often mean that the language that reporters use, It means that this kind of anti-choice rhetoric does find its way into articles. And a lot of anti-choice language is very emotive. For example, unborn children or they call fetuses babies. Honestly, I think even the term pro-life is sneakily emotive.

Starting point is 00:35:03 Like, abortion is almost always framed as a debate between pro-life and pro-choice. But the term pro-life, when you're talking about abortion, is quite frankly bullshit. it because if you were really pro-life, right, you'd introduce gun safety laws, so children literally stop dying in schools, or you would have universal health care, or you would take action on climate change, which probably is going to wipe out a lot of children in the future, or you'd make childcare affordable, or when there was a shortage of baby formula, you would fix that, or you would implement consistent free school meals, which was a big topic here in the UK. you'd address the suicide crisis in the trans community and make their lives better.

Starting point is 00:35:50 So I would really, really urge mainstream news media outlets to not use the term pro-life without quotation marks around it or instead to call it, call it what it is, like call it anti-abortion, call it anti-choice. The point of them using pro-life is because what is the opposite of pro-life? It's anti-life, as if we somehow hate life. And they will say that. They'll be like, they hate life. They're trying to stop life.

Starting point is 00:36:19 So yeah, stop calling them pro-life. But also ask them the follow-up questions. What does it mean to make something illegal? What are the punishments that you support for people who have abortions? They don't do anything to make sure people have safe pregnancies. And they also do nothing about the fact that there are so many pregnant people in jail in the United States right now who are shackled during labor. There's no plan to increase access to food for poor families.

Starting point is 00:36:52 That hearing I mentioned, where the woman went on and on about fetuses lighting the slantposts. That hearing, the members of Congress badgered the abortion provider witness and the abortion storyteller witness and the legal witnesses for hours. Right after that hearing, They went to go vote on a bill that would increase the supply of baby formula. Every single one of them voted no.

Starting point is 00:37:26 Time now to look at some of the recent headlines on the topic of abortion and see what the media could be doing better. Well, this one made us laugh from Gloucestershire Live. Mega Markle criticized for not commenting on U.S. abortion row. Oh, my God. Literally, sorry, literally any excuse. This is a really good example of how the media will take any trending issue, no matter how serious or grave a story it is, and use it as a bandwagon to peddle the same clickbait tabloid trash,

Starting point is 00:38:01 basically appropriating a global human rights crisis for easy money. And another cheap shot at Megan Markle. Also, she has actually spoken out now about the overture. turning of Rovey Wade, but that's almost not the point. The wider issue, articles like these point to, is do we expect every celebrity or public figure to talk about abortion or any human rights topic making headlines? You know, since the Supreme Court decision, a lot of celebrities and public figures have spoken out about having abortions, and that's great, but does it put too much pressure on people who have had abortions to tell their stories? I

Starting point is 00:38:42 actually love this example because Megan Markle was like just yelled at when Ireland's legalized abortion and she was overheard making a comment that it was good. And so of course she didn't say anything because you guys yell at her for wearing pants outside of the house. Okay? Like yeah, leave that girl be. Also, she already talked about having a miscarriage, which is also known as a spontaneous abortion. And you guys yelled at her for that too. So yeah, she didn't say anything. Good for her.

Starting point is 00:39:19 Go ahead, take care of your babies, enjoy your life. Like, she's dealt with a lot. But I do, to your question about celebrities, obviously I would love for more celebrities to speak out and talk about it. And I think it really does change the conversation when celebrities share that they had an abortion. I knew I could have an abortion and felt like I could do it because I knew the rapper Lil Kim had an abortion. That felt important to me, right?

Starting point is 00:39:48 But celebrities are humans and they also deserve space to grieve. When the decision came down, there was international outlets that called me within minutes of it coming down. And I was crying and I was throwing up. And they were like, hi, Renee, do you have a comment? Can you come on XYZ UK news? and I'm like crying and I was like no I can't right now like and they were like oh oh sorry this must be hard on you yes like we deserve that space but yes I would love to see more celebs use their platforms to talk about it raise money for abortion funds and to lobby Congress to create change yeah I'm going to just

Starting point is 00:40:28 flip that coin a little bit because and I agree in this context that platform can be really powerful But I also think when we are obsessed with knowing a celebrity's opinion on everything, that can be really misguided because celebrities don't necessarily know that much about anything. And suddenly, the place on the panel isn't going to the person with lived experience or the person with professional expertise. It's going to some goddamn celebrity, oftentimes who is appropriating a crisis for their own image. And so I think we do have to be really careful with expecting celebrities to be the moral paragons that we want in society. let's save some space for the voices that actually should have weight in the conversation too. Right. And I think that's where what I mean by they can use their platform, right? They can use their platform to say, look, the people you should follow are these people.

Starting point is 00:41:16 This is, yes, I had an abortion and I was lucky. My clinic was over here and it was easy. I could afford it. But most people can't, right? Go follow these people. And so that's what feels important to me is how do you use your platform? Yeah, exactly. Don't have to be a voice for. the voices. Just have to give them your amazing, expensive mic. And Megan Markle, if you're listening, you are our dream Media Storm guest, so please get in touch. This is a Megan Markle's fan account. Renée, Bracey Sherman, thank you so much for joining us on Media Storm. Before you go, where can people follow you and do you have anything to plug or shout out? Well, first, I just

Starting point is 00:41:55 want to say thanks for having me. It was a really wonderful conversation. If you've had an abortion and you're listening to this, please know that you're loved and supported. Every person, every single one of us, loves someone who's had an abortion. And so we need to change the conversation. Folks can follow my organization. We testify online. We testify.org. We testify on Facebook and Instagram and at abortion stories on Twitter.

Starting point is 00:42:22 And then, of course, you can follow me. I'm an avid twitterer. It's R. Bracey Sherman on Twitter and Renee Bracey Sherman on Facebook. Facebook and Instagram, though Facebook is my least favorite. So there's no point in following me there. But, you know, donate to your local abortion fund. Talk about your abortion. Talk about what's happening. Really just show up with love and support for people having abortions. That's all I ask. Thank you for listening. If you can't wait until the next episode to hear our voices, then head over to our feed, all the guilty feminists to catch our new miniseries. This is how you do it.

Starting point is 00:42:58 uplifting change makers fighting for social justice. And we'll be back on the 21st of July with a new episode about something that is so rarely talked about, it might seem shocking to some listeners. It's about paedophilia that has never acted on, the clinical disorder rather than the criminal act, which affects millions of people in the world from puberty. We're looking at a severe lack of research and healthcare policy and are resulting failure to protect children. Follow MediaStorm wherever you get to your podcast so that you can get access to new episodes as soon as they drop. If you like what you hear, share this episode with someone and leave us a five-star rating and a review.

Starting point is 00:43:40 It really helps more people discover the podcast and our aim is to have as many people as possible hear these voices. You can also follow us on social media at Matilda Mel at Helena Waddea and follow the show via at MediaStormPod. Get in touch and let us know what you'd like us to cover or who you'd like us to speak. Media Storm, an award-winning podcast from the House of the Guilty Feminist is part of the ACAST creator network. It is produced by Tom Salinsky and Deborah Francis White. The music is by Sam Fire.

Media Storm - S2E2 Post-Roe v. Wade: How safe are UK abortion rights? - with Renee Bracey Sherman

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