Media Storm - S3E3 Medical cannabis: The criminalisation of chronic pain - with StevoTheMadMan

Starting point is 00:00:00 The Hulu original series Murdoch Death and the Family dives into secrets, deception, murder, and the fall of a powerful dynasty. Inspired by shocking actual events and drawing from the hit podcast, this series brings the drama to the screen like never before. Starring Academy Award winner Patricia Arquette and Jason Clark. Watch the Hulu original series Murdoch Death in the Family, streaming October 15th on Disney Plus. Turns out a lot of people don't know. that cannabis is legal in the UK in strictly medical circumstances. Yeah, if somebody had asked me, is it legal or illegal, I would have just gone, oh, it's definitely illegal.

Starting point is 00:00:41 I mean, I do know there is some medical use, but when was it actually legalized? First of November 2018. I feel like it's not that uncommon now. A very good friend of mine has a cannabis prescription, for example. Okay, but tell me, is that prescription for either multiple, Storosis, epileptic seizures or chemotherapy induced nausea? No, none of the above. It's for ADHD. So then she went privately. I mean, either she went privately or she's one of four people

Starting point is 00:01:12 ever to have been prescribed it by the NHS for something else. So here I need to just lay out what the landscape of medical cannabis in the UK looks like. There's two types of legally prescribed medical cannabis. The licensed stuff, and the unlicensed stuff. And I know this sounds weird, but pretty much all of what we're seeing being taken in the UK legally is unlicensed.

Starting point is 00:01:39 Because there's only four actually licensed cannabis medicines in the UK. And these, as mentioned, are only given in very rare cases of multiple sclerosis, epileptic seizures and severe chemo reactions. But most of the medical cannabis, legally accessible in the UK,

Starting point is 00:01:57 caters to a wide range of other conditions and disorders. And there's a lot of evidence to show that these treatments can be life-changing for people with those conditions. But the problem is, it's almost impossible to get them on the NHS. How impossible are we talking? So the latest data goes from legalisation in 2018 up until last July. And during that time, over 89,000 prescriptions for these unlicensed cannabis medicines were issued privately. For example, to your friend. Fewer than five were issued by the NHS. Fewer than five? How many people does that exclude? For chronic pain alone, it's in the millions. The national pain burden is evidently quite difficult to measure, but the sort of two leading

Starting point is 00:02:49 studies put it between 8 million and 28 million people in the UK. So where does that leave those who can't afford private health care. Well, that's exactly what I was wondering, because a common pain relief the NHS does offer may not be cannabis-based, but I was surprised to learn that the UK is the highest opioid prescribing country per capita anywhere in the world. Opioids? Is that better? Do you ever watch Dopesick? It's about the US opioid crisis.

Starting point is 00:03:18 Go and watch. Terrifying. A crisis caused by medically prescribed opioids such as fentanyl and oxygen. codone, which drive an ongoing epidemic of opioid addiction that has seen hundreds of thousands of people in the US die of overdoses during the past two decades. Right? Because opioids, as everyone, I'm sure knows, are crazy addictive. And the reality is that many people, especially people with chronic conditions, don't want to be taking opioids every day. Instead, many people are learning about the benefits of medical cannabis, which is far, far less addictive. But they can't afford to access it privately, and where do you think they therefore turn?

Starting point is 00:04:00 There's always the black market. Nauty, Helena, straight away. But yeah, you're right. So I'm off to investigate. I will be speaking to chronic pain patients who've had to make that choice. Illegal dealers supplying them, the officers policing them, the doctors prescribing them, and the entrepreneurs devising them. Ah, she's a poet and she doesn't know it.

Starting point is 00:04:25 And I'll see you back in the studio with a very special guest to discuss everything around this media store. Marijuana, pot, grass, whatever you want to call it, is probably the most dangerous drug. The underground cannabis business is hidden all over Britain. Just condoning another gateway drug. Look at this. Around 120 plants in there.

Starting point is 00:04:47 Marijuana use inspires users to try harder drugs like cocaine or heroin. Welcome to MediaStorm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. I'm Matilda Malinson and I'm Helena Wadia. This week's investigation, cannabis and the criminalisation of chronic pain. I'm Maria Kalinovska. I'm a photographer and creative director and writer and I'm also Matilda's best friend. If you say so yourself. You can cut some of that out, but I'd give it to you all.

Starting point is 00:05:20 Full disclosure, we'd be effort. I'm facetiming Maria, who's just moved to Portugal. One reason being that in Portugal, drugs like cannabis are decriminalized. For Maria, this is a question of health. So I have endometriosis, which is a chronic pain condition, and I also have suspected fibro Malaysia. And how does this affect your day-to-day life? I'm in pain every single day. I've lost jobs as a result, It's quite hard sometimes to deal with it mentally because it often makes me feel like I'm a burden on people and that can contribute to depression. Yeah. Let's talk about pain relief.

Starting point is 00:06:06 What alleviation has NHS treatment brought you? The things that I most often offered are opioids and they are very dangerous to take long time. Your everyday GP doesn't really, I don't think, understand chronic pain in the way. it works you can be accused of just wanting to go there for the drugs instead of pain relief yeah i've actually come across someone who went to their doctor and was asking question about CBD and they were like basically so awful to her they started shouting at her and being like never take that at all we don't know anything about it but then obviously like prescribing her opioids so yeah there's a lot of mixed messages And spoiler alert, why did you decide to try smoking cannabis?

Starting point is 00:06:57 I don't think I would be able to function or work in the way that I do if I didn't smoke weed, to be honest. It's crazy. It kind of sometimes maybe feels like putting cushions, like around the pain. So like I still feel it, but it just means that I can not lay in bed in absolute agony for the whole day. Did you ever try to get it on the NHS before going to the streets? At that point, it wasn't actually available. That was before they changed the law.

Starting point is 00:07:27 And then later on, I got so excited. I remember reading the news and I was like, oh my God, there's going to be medicinal cannabis. Yes. But I quickly realized that it's pretty much inaccessible. And the topic itself is so difficult to breach with any doctor because doctors are so resistant to it. Yeah, to have money to get an appointment privately as well as another thing. Have you ever had positive reactions from doctors? So in the middle of a really bad endometriosis flare-up,

Starting point is 00:07:57 which was making me faint and pass out and fur up and just basically not really able to exist as a person in general, I went to A&E, and I was in there for about 10 hours, just waiting and sitting in the waiting room chair. It gave me a bunch of morphine, liquid morphine in the meantime. When the gynecologist came, he asked me, like, how do I manage my pain at home? I was just super honest and I was like, yeah, basically smoke weed.

Starting point is 00:08:23 He essentially was like, all we can do is just keep you here and like give you more morphine. But you said that you have a way of managing your pain at home that might be more comfortable for you. So like, I'm happy to discharge you and for you to do that, which is the most direct way that a doctor has ever told me to go home and smoke weed. He essentially endorsed you self-medicating cannabis overtaking prescribed regulated opioids. Yeah, just that's quite interesting. Interesting or terrifying. So let's talk about that. How do you get your cannabis?

Starting point is 00:08:56 Back when I was in the UK, there were two ways that I would get it. One was for a delivery service that does edibles. They have this like encrypted website. Maybe I shouldn't be saying this. But they have a way where you can order. And I mean, they weren't super cheap. You're spending like 100 pounds on one. order for example. To last you how long? Anywhere between like a month to two months and then the other

Starting point is 00:09:24 way I would get it is yeah the street. The cheapest you could probably get it in London would be like 60 pounds and that would last me yeah about a month. Wow so you're spending about 50 quid a month on self-medicated pain relief. Do you ever feel unsafe buying cannabis that is well firstly illegal? Yeah absolutely I have huge anxiety around picking up drugs as a woman. I've definitely had drug dealers who've tried to hit on me, fan by myself, and I feel really, really ill, being more vulnerable, being in a huge amount of pain. And how about the fact that whatever it is that you're putting in your body,

Starting point is 00:10:02 it's unregulated? Yeah. I would much rather be able to choose what kind of weed and effect has on me because sometimes I really don't want to get stoned. And I try not to think about it, but like, I don't know what I'm smoking, really. I mean, I can ask the person who I'm buying it from, but whether they're telling me the truth, there's no way of knowing.

Starting point is 00:10:22 Maria might feel like she's left to deal with this alone, but ironically, she's in good company. A poll this March found that 1.8 million people in the UK are alleviating their medical symptoms in exactly this way, creating an industry of illegal medication worth 3.6 billion pounds. I thought I'd give you a front row view of what this actually looks like and the kind of information actually out there for people left to self-medicate illegally. So I gathered a few phone numbers for dealers from the sources who contributed to this investigation,

Starting point is 00:11:02 not all of them on the record. And I'm going to message them. Hey, can you recommend good cannabis for pain relief? mate i'm not a pharmacy you know what i actually feel quite relieved by that he's not finished but i recommend pink moroccan hash for pain these guys are fast i have good weed any for pain oh a whole menu reading it i'm not sure how medically informative it is amnesia purple punch what strains are these most are indica good for pain so if i google what cannabis strains are good for pain indica does actually come up but that also kind of makes me feel like

Starting point is 00:12:09 this guy has literally just gone and done that and then been like yeah see the will help. Their word is all you've got to go on. By the way, if anyone wants to follow through on any of these deals, I'm a bit worried I'm going to have angry dealers waiting at my door with hungry pockets later. You may have noticed I've got a bit of an exotic accent, so if there's anything that I say that isn't properly understood, just give me a wave. This is Gary Carroll, a former police officer of 14 years who served in, if you didn't guess, the West Midlands. We're a specialised in organised crime, urban street gangs, drugs supply, firearms, etc. So we're talking about illegal cannabis for medical use.

Starting point is 00:12:51 Can you give us a sense of the scale of this problem? Certainly the millions. I've been involved with dozens and dozens of cases where defendants have presented himself at court with some serious medical problems, those for ADHD, for anxiety, for depression, all the way up to end-the-life care. chronic pain, kidney disease. Would they get compassionate sentences in those cases? Generally, yes.

Starting point is 00:13:18 What we have to remember is that consuming cannabis for its medicinal properties is probably the number one defence that's claimed. So the court's in a bit of a difficult situation. What are the other social problems arising from this market? There are some deep and dark issues that the illicit supply of cannabis does cause the UK. counterline drug activity that involves the recruitment of those who are vulnerable due to age, disability, naivety, you know, technically a victim of modern-day slavery, potentially human trafficking. We then go on to urban street gang violence, stabbing, drive-by shootings, kidnap, even torture,

Starting point is 00:14:01 relating to selling this Class B drug. Just how much is this illegal industry worth? Cannabis cultivation is known as the cash machine of the organised criminal world. So just 20 plants generating a potential yield of between 5 and 10 ounces. He could potentially earn between 12 and 24,000 pounds every 3 to 4 months. So that's just how lucrative it is for an incredibly small cannabis setup. Do you think illegal dealers, or have you ever come across illegal dealers, actively catering towards the medical market?

Starting point is 00:14:36 I would say it's certainly a beneficial factor that a lot of suppliers will target. Now, we all know there's different strains of cannabis that have different levels of cannabinoys. So these strains are actively promoted, which does go towards telling the medicinal user to make a more informed choice. But you have to take it that the supplier is telling the truth.

Starting point is 00:14:59 The black market will never be eradicated, but it can be changed. so that those who are involved in the purchase of cannabis for their own medicinal reason have a more viable and safer route. To get our head around the basics, I sought a medical perspective next. Hi, so I'm Steve Hadjof. I'm a training a doctor and also an epidemiologist and a health economist. And asked Tim to explain what we actually mean when we talk about medical cannabis. So firstly, there are hundreds of different chemicals within the cannabis plant.

Starting point is 00:15:30 Now the best known of these compounds, these so-called cannabinoids, are CBD cannabodial and THC, tetrahedricanabinabinol. So cannabodial, CBD, doesn't produce euphoria, it doesn't get you intoxicated. The best known intoxicating substance is THC, tetrahydrogynaecinabinal. Generally speaking, the strains of the plant that are medicinally beneficial have a similar amount of THC, and CBD. And the strains that are used recreationally tend to have much higher THC. What does the science say in terms of the medical benefits of cannabis? In mental health, there's evidence around depression and anxiety. There's evidence in post-traumatic stress disorder. And I've seen trials run in preventing psychosis. Autism, Tourette,

Starting point is 00:16:22 Tourette's syndrome. And that's just the mental health stuff. There's plenty in physical health as well. Several cannabinoids can interact with. with what's called the endocannabinoid system, which is a system of substances and receptors in the body and therefore reduce the perception of pain and potentially reduce the inflammation as well. If there is resistance coming from people within the medical community, what are their reasons?

Starting point is 00:16:49 One is root of administration. Smoking is bad. Vaping is not much better. What we're used to prescribing is little white pills. The further away, the less comfortable it is. I think the association with the illicit market is potentially an issue, particularly given what has happened with opioids. And then finally, very few doctors understand the endocannabinoid system.

Starting point is 00:17:15 So I think we've probably not done the right sort of teaching. And I think the final piece is the tests that have been done, the so-called clinical trials, have often been done in a different way. So it's harder for doctors to understand the outcomes. Okay, but why? Why can't cannabis be tested in the traditional way? The problem is partly a financial one, because it costs a lot of money to run a clinical trial.

Starting point is 00:17:42 You know, maybe $5 million US dollars. Because you can't patent a natural product, and that's very difficult for an organisation if they can't have a reasonable expectation that they're going to be able to grow their business from it. That said, I think trials can be done. I think trials should be done. I don't buy that it's not possible, but I do accept that it's not easy.

Starting point is 00:18:06 But there are companies plugging that evidence gap. My name is Arthur Wakely, and I'm the managing director of Celadon Pharmaceuticals. So we cultivate farmer-grade cannabis medicines based out of our 100,000 square foot facility in the West Midlands. We also have a clinical trial that is approved by the government for cannabis-based medicines. medicines for chronic pain. If you're already in a position to manufacture these products here, why bother investing in clinical trials and R&D? So it's a really interesting situation because these are medicines that have been used for hundreds of years by humans in countries all around the world. But really what we're seeing is a pretty unique pharmaceutical situation

Starting point is 00:18:47 because these were medicines that were largely illegal in the 20th century. We need to show patients, doctors and regulators, robust data and clinical trials. is a really key part of getting these medicines prescribed more widely on the National Health Service. It sounds like the market in which you're trying to operate is still quite young, even resistant to your core product. Tell us a bit about what the medical cannabis market looks like in the UK and what the main barriers to growth are. Most cannabis-based medicines are actually imported into the UK. And there's a few problems here. There are number one real regulatory challenges about getting a controlled drug.

Starting point is 00:19:26 across borders. Number two, there are some real delays. And then finally, these medicines are currently expensive due to the imported nature of them as well. What changes might improve the situation? The first is around having quality UK produced cannabis-based medicines. So that means having the cultivation and the manufacturing here in the UK and not having to cross borders. The second, as I mentioned, is about increasing access on the National Health Service. And then the final aspect for me, Matilda, is really about awareness. How much potential do you think this market has, presumably a lot given you're dedicating your career to it? It's a very unique situation because they were illegal in the 20th century and are now starting

Starting point is 00:20:06 to be legalised. We're seeing quite rapid growth. Let's not forget, these medicines didn't go away. In the UK, around 1.8 million people have reported going to the black market, but since legalisation, we're seeing these markets open up. But I think fundamentally at its core, we've met patients, we know how life-changing and transformative cannabis-based medicines can be. That's really what's driving this extraordinary growth in multiple places around the world. Okay, but now we're talking about medical cannabis as a market, which takes us into tricky ethical territory. Because if there's a financial incentive to prescribe this drug, a drug which does have abuse potential, how can we be sure it won't be prescribed for the wrong reasons for profit

Starting point is 00:20:48 rather than for patients? I mean, we've seen this in the US with the opioid crisis. It's a great question. And I think one different. we have in the UK. It's really it's a proper pharmaceutical market. So we have government bodies and regulators to make sure that these medicines are prescribed in the most appropriate way possible. I think it's also worth mentioning for that that this is certainly a preferred route than the current black market situation. To find out more, I spoke to one of the patients on the trial Celadon is funding, actually run by a subsidiary company called LVL Health. Okay, so I have multiple conditions. I have on keros in speech.

Starting point is 00:21:26 Bondelitis, fibromyalgia, intermobility syndrome, and psoriotic arthritis. This is Julie. Okay, so before I started medical canvies, I was on a lot of opioid and benzodiazepine to even just be able to sleep. I was basically not far from losing my job. Actually, I'm going to be frank. I was like a zombie. When did you first try cannabis as an alternative treatment? I tried to self-medicate, but he didn't work, because what you find in the street,

Starting point is 00:21:56 It has nothing to do with the medical cannabis. And then I've heard about the trial with LVLF. I was reassured about the potential side effects. And honestly, the only side effect is that I actually have a life now. Can you explain the impact of being able to reduce your opioid intake? My day-to-day life and my professional life improved so much, but by November 2021, I had a promotion. I'm able again to clean my own house.

Starting point is 00:22:23 It's stupid. I never thought from a 20-year-old me that one day, I would be happy to actually do housework. The medical cannabis did really completely change my life. I went from a zombie with diminishing intellectual capacities to bad being myself. So how easy is it for people to actually get cannabis legally if the NHS isn't an option?

Starting point is 00:22:49 First, you need a prescription from a private specialist. Your GP can't do that. And secondly, you need a special pharmacy to cash it in at. And there are companies like Marmedica, which do both. So I asked the CEO, John Robson, to walk me through. So let's just have a look at how it works. If I go to Mammedica's website, it says, step one, eligibility. So how do I know if I'm eligible for your service? So there's two criteria at the moment. You must have tried two or more licensed medicines, treatments or therapies. Currently in the UK, medical cannabis cannot be used as a primary

Starting point is 00:23:29 treatment. It can only be used as a secondary or a last resort treatment. Okay, I'll check that box. What's next? The second criteria which a patient must meet is that they must not have had any previous experience of psychosis or schizophrenia. Okay, no psychosis history here. Presumably I need to have a prescription, but I gather I can actually get that from you. Absolutely. Once everything is in place, you would have a virtual consultation with a specialist. And how much is that going to cost me? On the clinic side, it costs £150 for initial consultation with a specialist doctor, with follow-ups costing £75. We must see you, as stipulated by the regulator,

Starting point is 00:24:15 after month one, three, six and nine, and for an annual checkup thereafter. So in the first year, clinic costs are £450 and £75 a year thereafter. Okay, and that's just for the consultation and the prescription. I then need to actually buy the products. So I'm looking at Mammedica's full list of products. It's a grid layout and details, wow, the THC CBD ratio, the strain, price, and there's quite a range. I could get five grams of something called glory glue for 27 pound 50.

Starting point is 00:24:59 I could get powdered donuts containing 30 grams of weed for 212 pounds. But what if, you know, what if someone can't afford that? Are there any options for them? Earlier this year, we launched the Marmedica Axis. scheme for people who are on means-based benefits or our veterans and essentially allows them to access our service for a one-off 200-pound fee that covers the cost of all consultations for as long as the patient is a patient of us. Based on the calculations we've made, that is the bare minimum we are able to charge. As we get bigger and when we do make a profit, we will certainly be trying

Starting point is 00:25:43 to reduce the cost further. I just want to ask about a potential conflict of interest that strikes me with a business model like Marmedicas. When one part of the company is a clinic prescribing cannabis-based products and the other is a pharmacy selling those products, doesn't this incentivise your clinicians to prescribe products that your company ultimately profits from, even if it's not strictly in the patient's best interests? What you're kind of describing is what we potentially have seen with a couple of clinics, or pharmacy groups, which have their own product. So they offer the consultations at a much cheaper rate than we do,

Starting point is 00:26:22 but the doctors are on instruction to only prescribe their products where they make a higher margin. Now, at some point in time in the future, we will have our own products. In that instance, it will be down to the doctor and for the patient to decide which brand of medication will be most beneficial for them. Do you know what struck me when browsing MyMedica's list of products. It's that per gram, a lot of the prices for regulated cannabis-based medicines are

Starting point is 00:26:51 actually cheaper than what the street dealers were offering for unregulated stuff, which makes me think one of the biggest factors driving the illegal trade is surely lack of awareness about what's legally available. If cannabis has been medically approved and legally available for nearly five years, why are so many people still in the dark? What information is the mainstream media giving us? Are they shining a light on reality or casting shadows and fear? That takes us back to the studio. Thanks for sticking around.

Starting point is 00:27:37 Welcome back to the studio and to MediaStorm, the news podcast that starts with the people who are normally asked last. Joining us today is a football pro turned Snapchat star and he has a habit of making waves, whether it's by standing up to racism on the pitch or staging unhinged challenges on the web. This man is about chaos, comedy, content and chronic pain. He's a chronic pain warrior and medical cannabis ambassador.

Starting point is 00:28:04 Welcome to the studio, Steveo. Hello, girls, you're right. Good little intro there. Yes, ex pro. Yeah, love that one. won't you? Hey, you added the X. I don't think anyone this end said X pro. I think it was just pro. Oh yeah, you did. Yeah, yeah, it's true. It's true. Damn it. See, that's my own insecurities playing with me. You are projecting me. Projecting. There you go. It's all good. It's all good.

Starting point is 00:28:30 It's part of the journey, man. Yeah. How are you today? I'm fine, man. First day of half time. So a bit stressful after a heavy weekend of festivals. I went to to the boxing in Bulma. And then yesterday, I was watching Little Mermaid. Oh, I really want to see it. That's cute. So it's balance. It's wicked.

Starting point is 00:28:53 Really, really, really, really good. What listeners couldn't hear was that before this, when we were trying to connect to this call, you were singing Bruno from Encanto, which is one of the best films slash songs. And the thing is, is that I'm saying this, and I don't even have kids, so I don't know what that says about me. What, you are?

Starting point is 00:29:11 You weirdo. No, joking, yeah, no. I'm going Disney in two weeks. We're going here, taking the girls, it's their birthday, all their birthdays. So we've got one birthday on Thursday, and then the other two are in the same week. You have three daughters, and they're all born in the same week of the year. Yeah, Geminize, yeah, first week of June. Well, I think we've cracked the mystery of why you're a madman.

Starting point is 00:29:36 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Trust me, daddy, yeah. Must be hard to find some you time with all of that. and we want to ask a little bit about your experience of chronic pain and where that began. So can you tell us about that? I used to play football. And one of the injuries I had was I snapped my crucial ligament, my ACL, like total rupture. Although I did get a good doctor, well, I say that, he'd done it and he done it too tight.

Starting point is 00:30:03 So I had to go and have a second operation just to refigure that and loosen up the band. But they took a bit from my hamstring and put it towards the ACL. So there was a lot going on. So I'd say for the last sort of 10 years, I've been just taking all sorts of painkillers, going to get treatments, massages, acupunctures, all of that. And then after about five years of that,

Starting point is 00:30:26 it then becomes a mental pain. You know, so then you start being able to not sleep. You have to book different cabs, different aeroplane seats. You have to pay extra. I told you I was going away. I've just paid an extra £600 to choose my seat. It's just the anxiety. and the worry and the, they say it's mind over matter, well, I couldn't get hold of my mind.

Starting point is 00:30:47 Like, you know what I mean? So as I say, I was trying many, many different sorts of pain relief, but then you hear certain pain relief will give you side effects. I mean, so when they're trying to force all of this stuff on you, that what I know gets people addicted and sends people crazy, and I've noticed from experience, and there's understood. Like, we've got something here legal for four years. Why ain't you sharing it?

Starting point is 00:31:07 Give people a choice. Yeah, well, let's talk about that then. come on to medical cannabis. Just tell us how do you access it, how do you use it, and just how it affects your life really today. I'm a patient with Mar-Medica, which God said. A bit skeptical at first. I'm feeling my address for flower to turn up to my door. Is it going to be the FBI? Am I fine? M-I-6 whatever waiting there for me? Ah, we've got you, you know? One of them ones. But it wasn't. He's just an old white guy who brought on who delivers all the rest of my post. You know what I mean? He was none the wider. Prior to that you have a consultation

Starting point is 00:31:45 where you go through your medical history. You speak openly. It was a relief. I'm saying things and they're putting it into medical terms. I'm like, yes. Okay, that makes sense. You know what I mean? So they'll get the right amount, you know? So my right amount was 40 grams a month. Prior to that because I'm in so much pain without any control, I'm probably smoking that a week. You know what I mean? know, like, or every couple of weeks, 100%, you know, so I've brought that right down to a place now where I really do take it as a medicine, I'm not overusing it. And actually, I, in the first half of this episode, I did an investigation into why so many people are struggling to access it. And the big issue that came up was awareness.

Starting point is 00:32:29 You know, why are you choosing to use your platform to speak out about medical cannabis? That's the only reason is awareness. I lost my mum in 2021. She battled cancer for years. She'd got past it. It'd come back in different stages, different places. So it'd come back again. But what they did, because it was during the COVID times on,

Starting point is 00:32:53 but I'd just put them to the side and just gave her a morphine. You know, and just shut her body down. You know what I mean? It's like, for me, it was to raise more awareness of this other option. It might not be for you. It might not work at all. here's another option. And what kind of public response have you had to being a content creator on that topic?

Starting point is 00:33:16 Like has there been backlash? Has there been positive responses? As always, in anything is positive and negative. You need them, to be honest, you need the negative to show you where you can improve on how you're getting the message across. So I listen to that as well. But just the positive and that's the relief of people saying, wow, because they've been going down back alleys. trying to get their cannabis, you know what I mean, risking their life, trying to save their life.

Starting point is 00:33:43 If we do come together, especially in this industry, everyone worked together, the lives we would save would be ridiculous. But at the moment, I'm near a lot of walls. The social media platforms there is wild, wild. Is it? Because I was going to ask about that algorithm because, you know, some of the topics we've covered,

Starting point is 00:34:03 like I did gyne cancer a couple weeks ago. Apparently, gynecology is porn to social media. So content just gets shadow banned. I imagine you get that with cannabis too. All the time, yeah, man. I was shadow band at the best of times and my reach has been tampered with and it's a lot lately.

Starting point is 00:34:20 And I don't like it. Sometimes ignorance is bliss, but I can't be ignorant to this subject anymore. All the rest of it, the chocolate I eat, the mobile phone I'm on, everything else. But with this one here

Starting point is 00:34:31 where I see my friends, my aunties, my colleagues all dying, I can't be oblivious to it and I can't be ignorant to it. So, yeah, if I've got to use my platform and take a hit, because I have, I've taken a massive hit on my Instagram. Like, you have to look at my numbers.

Starting point is 00:34:46 They're going down and, like, hardly posting now, but thank God for TikTok. Yeah. So it's a shame. Yeah. Well, that's social media. On MediaStan, we also like to take a look at what the mainstream media could be doing better when it comes to reporting on vital issues like this. I wonder, do you have any overriding thoughts about how cannabis is talked about

Starting point is 00:35:08 in the mainstream media, in news, for example. Overriding thought is that, like, we know there's some great stories, some bad stories, right? Even though they know that they still act like it's the worst thing ever. They'll go and get the stoners that, like, literally the smoking to be stoned, and they'll have them at the forefront, they're going to do an interview with them. I don't mind that them people are out there. My bridges are the stoners and whatnot. I just think they need to start reporting.

Starting point is 00:35:38 supporting it properly, speak to some people that truly understand where it's going and where it's come from. And then you would get a better balance of understanding and people will get a choice. Because at the moment, the only choice is it's a gateway drug. You start this. You didn't go to cocaine. Cocaine to heroin. You got to kill someone. You know what I mean? Like literally. It's actually mad that that myth about cannabis being a gateway drug. I mean, that was said to me by my parents as a kid. And if you actually trace the history of that. That's, by the way, been pretty much completely debunked by the scientific community. It's a confused case of correlation and causation. There's nothing in cannabis that makes

Starting point is 00:36:19 someone more prone to want to try heroin. It's an idea that was started by Robert DuPont, who was Nixon's drug czar during the president's war on drugs in the 70s. And yeah, the media's just bandied it about. Cannabis at the time was looked at as a black person, drug, right? So if they make it sound the worst drug there is, you're just tying it to the people that they hated at the time. Same with the crack. What is the difference between the crack epidemic to the opioid epidemic? The only problem is when you was on crack, you was a robin thief. When you're on opioids, you have a problem. It's how they sell it to us. And as a kid, I never understood. Now I understand, you know what I mean? But like, I promise you, in the circles I'm in now,

Starting point is 00:37:06 a lot of the people that smoke recreational or using it for medically are white people. Like, you know what I mean? It's expensive, you know what I'm saying? So, like, so I see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, there's also another mainstream media narrative that you touched on, which is that cannabis is really, really addictive. And of course, marijuana dependence does exist and it can be harmful,

Starting point is 00:37:34 but it's A, typically less severe than other substance dependence disorders and B, it's much less common. And also, just to say to listeners, all studies and other sources reference in this chat, they're all in our show notes below. And one example suggests that about 9% of marijuana users become dependent compared to 15% of cocaine users and 24% of heroin users. In your experience, Devo, of using cannabis.

Starting point is 00:38:04 medically. Is addiction what we should be worried about? No way. Like, listen, I'm not going to come in and I make a point you can get addicted. I've seen the worst of it, but it's all about balance, balance, balance. And we're only going to know that that can happen if we allow the people at the forefront to come out and start talking about it and explain to us that this can happen. So then we then get a choice. Listen, when you're a younger and they say you can't have something and you brought all these myths about it, the young kids want it more. And I get it. I understand the way the world works, but I'm having tunnel vision. I'm going to get my message across to the people that want to know. You know when we were talking about myths as well and

Starting point is 00:38:48 myths that are perpetrated in the mainstream media, but also at home, like Tilda, you said, my parents said it was a gateway drug. My parents, for some reason, my mom would always be like, oh that cause you know cannabis causes psychosis and and I feel like that's that's sort of one of the big fears around cannabis that that we found in the mainstream media as well um now again as we always say like there is some truth to these fears THC one of the cannabinoids talked about in this episode that can be an aggravating factor to some psychotic disorders but Dr. Steve Hadjof who we speak to in this investigation also says there's a early signs that some cannabis-based medicines might have beneficial effects on psychosis.

Starting point is 00:39:35 So is it that this association is basically just too simplistic or and also reflects our simplicity of the conversations we have about cannabis as a whole? Yeah, yeah. Think about it. At the forefront at the moment is mental health, right? So if they can say that there's something that affects that even further when it's such a hot topic, course they're that's going to say. But if you look deeper and you actually care because there's a lot of lazy people in the world at the moment. And like, if you actually

Starting point is 00:40:07 had to go walk to the shop to collect your news, you'd probably read it all. You know what I mean? But because it's such so there just on your feed, it's easy just to go, oh, oh, oh, cannabis is killing people. Oh, it's making them mental. Oh, right? But for every one person that it sends maybe a bit mad, psychotic, whatever you want to call it, there's the other people that are allowed to get up and play with their kids. There's the other people that has extended their life. It's the other people that are able to go out and work to pay for a roof over their head for their kids. There's so many positive stories that they need to report on as well. It's about reporting the good and the bad, but we know news. We know it doesn't do it.

Starting point is 00:40:50 I'm so glad you made those points because we've actually got some. data on this. So time now to look at some recent stories that have been making headlines on this topic. We've done a little keyword analysis of recent headlines to get a sense of what impression of cannabis the public is likely to get from today's news. And the findings are pretty interesting. So over several days, we searched the word cannabis in the news tab on Google. This will give you 12 front page results and over the course of those days, three quarters of the stories came from local or national news outlets. One in six came from medical or science journals.

Starting point is 00:41:28 But we looked at the news headlines and just the solid majority of the stories were about cannabis and crime. One outlet in particular cropped up a few times. Helena, tell us about ITV news. Yeah, so we decided to zoom in a bit on the ITV news headlines. And of their most recent 20 articles mentioned in cannabis,

Starting point is 00:41:50 19 were about crime. The sole exception reported that medical cannabis had been found to ease cancer pain. So we picked out the top key words from the other 19, gang, stash, cash, drugs and raid. Stevo, does this surprise you? Not one bit. You said ITV, ITV, yeah?

Starting point is 00:42:18 I won't get too into it. But while they're putting their things, to the side, they're putting that to the forefront and putting a shine and a bad light on it, which is incredible because when I first saw on mainstream media, it was on this morning. It was Phil and Holly. And they had a little kid on there who, whose mom was using it to stop his epileptic fits. And I thought it was an amazing thing, you know what I mean? So, it surprises me that they've got that agenda when they were the one that pushed it to the forefront, right? But also, but that shows us, doesn't it? That shows us the difference in, in the

Starting point is 00:42:50 narratives because oh this poor kid who's got epilepsy is a much easier story to spin than you know potentially middle age people who are of colour who are men who who need help for things that aren't out of their control like epilepsy. Football injuries. Football injuries PTSD like so these gang members they talk of um how do we know that they're not smoking extreme amounts of cannabis to stop the PTSD they're having from seeing their friends get killed. Like, it's a vicious, vicious circle. You know what I mean? Like, so, like, instead of getting the little kid with the blue eyes that you think everyone's

Starting point is 00:43:37 going to be like, yeah, go and bring the gang, let's talk to these people that you're victimizing and saying that the worst is the worst. Hey, they might come on and they might surprise us. To end on a positive note, I wonder if there's a. there are any media that you think are doing a good job. Vice, for example, does a lot of myth-busting around drugs. I mean, where do you go for your information on this topic? Listen, there is publications that are doing good jobs,

Starting point is 00:44:07 individuals doing good jobs, keep up the good work. You're saving lives. You're making lives more bearable. You know what I mean? People are still in major pain, but you're giving them an extra hour to play with their kids. giving them an extra hour to us and taking some positivity, you know what I mean? So keep up the good work, spread the good news, spread the bad news as well.

Starting point is 00:44:29 So we know what to stay away from. We know not to take that amount or whatever it is. We need it all. Well, yeah, you're basically having to become the media that is missing. Yeah, 100%. Best thing about social media and the worst. We have the media now, you know what I mean? Stivo, Madman.

Starting point is 00:44:47 Thank you so much for joining us. on Media Storm. Tell us where people can follow you and do you have anything you want to plug? I want to plug Media Storm. You're doing a good job, man. This conversation is going to hit someone and it's going to change their life.

Starting point is 00:45:08 Thank you for listening. Our next investigation and episode of Media Storm is on the past, present and future of strikes in the UK with special guest Mick Wheelan. That'll be out. on the 15th of June, so stay tuned. Follow MediaStorm wherever you get your podcast so that you can get access to new episodes

Starting point is 00:45:26 as soon as they drop. If you like what you hear, share this episode with someone and leave us a five-star rating and a review. It really helps more people discover the podcast, and our aim is to have as many people as possible hear these voices. You can also follow us on social media at Matilda Mal at Helena Wadia and follow the show via at MediaStorm pod.

Starting point is 00:45:47 Get in touch and let us know who you'd like us to speak to and what you'd like us to cover. Media Storm is an award-winning podcast produced by Helen Awadier and Matilda Malamson. It came from the House of the Guilty Feminist and it's part of the ACAR's creator network. The music is by Samfire.

Media Storm - S3E3 Medical cannabis: The criminalisation of chronic pain - with StevoTheMadMan

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