Medsider: Learn from Medtech and Healthtech Founders and CEOs - Are Medical Device Models the Key to Building a Lean Medtech Startup?

Episode Date: May 8, 2013

The lean startup movement has become increasingly popular within the tech community after the release of Eric Ries’ book in 2011. Although I personally believe the lean startup methodology is brilliant, some aspects are difficult to apply to the medtech space. For example, it costs significantly less money to iterate on a software idea in...[read more]Related ArticlesCan Medical Device Companies Increase Sales and Reduce Costs at the Same Time?Substantial and Sustainable – 2 Words That Medtech Companies Should Get Used ToSocial Media Best Practices for Marketing Medical Devices 

Welcome to MedSider, where you can learn from a mix of experienced medical device and med tech experts. These proven mentors will show you how to master the MedTech space on your own terms without going to school. Now here's your host, Scott Nelson. The Lean Startup Movement has become increasingly popular within the tech community after the release of Eric Reese's book in 2011. Although I personally believe the Lean Startup methodology is brilliant, some of the Lean Startup

Some aspects are difficult to apply to the med tech space. For example, it costs significantly less money to iterate on a software idea in comparison to a medical device prototype. However, medical device models could be a potential solution to this challenge. They are not nearly as expensive as you would think, and it's much more efficient to make changes to a model versus an actual prototype. In this interview with Allison Ray, principal at Pulse Research and Development, we learned how to best utilize models throughout the entire medical device life cycle from concept to commercialization. Here are the few points we're going to cover. How medical device models can help juice the R&D development cycle.

The benefits of using medical device models for physician training and education. The Play-Doh effect, using medical device models to create strong brands and memories. Why rapid prototyping and avoiding surprises are incredibly important concepts to master. And can medical device models be a key difference in the sales process. Of course, we're going to cover a lot more in this interview with Allison, but before we dig in, you need to listen to these brief two messages. Job leads, opportunities to network, access to specialized groups, meaningful discussion and debate, sound interesting, then you should check out the medical devices group on LinkedIn.

It's the industry's only spam-free, curated form for intelligent conversations with medical device thought leaders. Not only that, but it's the single largest Medical Group on all of LinkedIn. Medical device professionals worldwide are invited to join the medical devices group to help build their personal and corporate brands. Check it out.medicaldevicesgroup.net. Again, that's medical devices group.net. As a reminder, MedSider is on iTunes.

Just go to medsider.com forward slash iTunes and you could subscribe to the podcast for free. That way, all the new episodes will automatically download to your iTunes account. It's super easy. Also, if you like the podcast, don't forget to rate it. That really helps us out. Okay. For you ambitious MedTech and Medical Device Doers, here's your program. Hello, hello, everyone.

It's Scott Nelson, and welcome to another edition of MedSider, the program where you can learn from proven and experienced medical device and med tech thought leaders. And on today's program, we've got Allison Ray, who is the principal slash chief creative officer at Pulse, research, and development. Allison is an industrial designer by trade. And what is Pulse R&D? Pulse R&D is a team of highly specialized individuals who are experts in the development in manufacturing of medical devices.

They have a specific expertise in product pipeline development, IP-driven design solutions, custom soft tissue anatomical model development. That's a really long phrase there. Voice of customer research, ergonomic design, product and manufacturing, engineering, and custom 3D. marketing models. That's a lot. We're definitely not going to talk about all of that, but the thesis

for this particular interview is going to be this, that medical device models, anatomical models, etc., are highly underutilized throughout the entire life cycle of a medical device, from initial concept to commercialization. So that's the thesis of this interview. So without further do, welcome to the program, Allison. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you for having me. So did I get that introduction right regarding what is Pulse Research and Development or Pulse R&D? Yes, you did. Certainly the focus of the company is the anatomy models and marketing models used for research and development, professional education and sales and marketing.

The other parts of what we do are we are initially, and through our history, medical device development groups, So we are used to doing the actual devices themselves. So we understand the product development cycle, and we're basically just applying those same skill sets to actually helping sell the devices. Got it, got it. So we can also happily do the devices, but to me there's more creative opportunity

in helping people sell their devices than making the devices themselves, especially given that I've been a sales person for 20-some years. Got it. So you can understand what sales folks go through on a day-in-in-and-day-out basis. So I... Very good. But as I just mentioned, we're going to focus in on medical device models, anatomical models, et cetera, and the fact that they are highly underutilized.

And I'm going to start, let's start out with the quote, because I know this is rather interesting and it tells a good story. But this is a quote from, I believe, a customer, yours logic and it states the model has accomplished what we had hoped and more. It has helped us to gain a competitive advantage in the realm of safety for patients. Clearly when patients are exposed to the model, they pick out our soft silicone piece in comparison to the large metal coil every time. So that's an interesting quote. It sets the stage for the rest of the interview, but can you maybe speak to that particular model that you helped develop? Sure.

The project was for permanent contraception for Hologics, and they were introducing a product that's a little foamed silicone implant, maybe a third the size of grain of rice. And they use a little bipolar energy to disrupt the surface of the fallopian tube, and they put this soft-foamed silicone implant, and the tissue grows in, and it's comfortable and inert. but they are a competitor was making a large coil spring, maybe an inch and a half long that is sharp on both sides

and it's made out of metal that has some nickel in it. And what that does is not only is it scary looking, but it produces an inflammatory response for the rest of the patient's life. And so when they posed that scenario to me, I came up with a bunch of concepts on how I can tell that story with a model and allow the end user, the physician, to come to their own conclusion. That's one of the beauties about these models, is that they're designed to produce a specific experience that the customer comes to on their own. and they don't necessarily need to trust the word of their salesperson. So, you know, the joke on this particular product is that you could have a sales force of monkeys

and it's still going to sell because once you see the comparison. So the model that we made has a replica of the competitors device on the right fallopian tube and on the left fallopian tube there's a replica of their device. And, you know, there's a lid you can take off and feel the softness of the one and feel the hard metal of the other. But even just looking at it, you can see that there's no earthlings that would choose the metal coil over the foam silicone implant. Right, right.

And we're living in sort of an era where apps are all the rage, and most of the focus is on app development. But in my particular experience, and I imagine you can probably relate to this, that a model is often much more valuable in the field in terms of telling that story, whether it's to an actual physician that's going to implant or utilize the device, or even when a physician explains the particular procedure or the particular device to a potential patient that is considering the surgery or the or the procedure. So I think that's a great story to start out with.

We're going to definitely get into where models or where device companies and med tech companies are missing the boat in terms of utilizing models and sales and marketing. But let's start out with R&D because I think this is an interesting sort of subtopic. The head of ones that face the medical device industry are pretty strong right now in terms of longer regulatory timeframes, more expensive regulatory timeframes, etc. So it's becoming really, really important for early stage startups to really make sure that their potential or their idea for a device, there's a market for it, that it's going to work, et cetera. And maybe you can explain where device models can come into play in terms of generating interest and exposing a potential idea to the marketplace. before an actual prototype is developed. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, if you can imagine, you know,

being a medical device engineer and you've got, let's say, some sort of catheter that you want to test how it steers and progresses through the vascular system, and you have your initial model that's made out of some rapid prototypes and some paper clips and some duct tape, you know, the very first germ of a model

it would be great if you had, you know, the vessels of the right arm in your drawer. Just to play with it. Or if you're, you know, practicing the extraction of stones from, you know, a kidney and you had, you know, a model that you could test and just, you know, I'm not talking about, you know, validating the final design. I'm talking about just your first sweep and your general testing to see. It's not so much a proof of concept of the device, but more of the engineering.

There's sort of two proofs of concepts. One is that is the engineering going to work? like, you know, there's the outcome that you want to produce with your device, but there's also, it did the engineering that I did to come to that outcome, is it going to work? Are the linkage is going to work? Is the steering going to work? Are they the right gears?

You know, whatever your story is. And so what you can do is if you have a model, you can try those concepts out much earlier in the development cycle than you could if you had to go into an animal, which requires that you have something better thought out. that you can then, you know, justify to your internal review board that it's, you know, that it's worth going into a model. So instead of making dramatic learning in an animal or cadaver, perhaps you could, you know,

let some of those weaker ideas fall away much, much earlier. Yeah, no, no, exactly. And just so I understand that right, I think it's really interesting that you mentioned there's kind of two proofs of concept. one is, does this, our physician's going to want this device? Is there a market for it? What does the landscape look like in terms of competition, et cetera? And then the other proof of concept that you just mentioned is, does the engineering work?

Can these, in layman's terms, or for lack of a better description, where these pieces fit together and can this be built out at a relatively non-costly fashion? So does that make sense? Am I understanding those two? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, my background wasn't, you know, I didn't start in the medical field, and I remember my first programs where I was quoting a proof of concept model, you know, to us, you know, to designers and engineers,

at least outside the medical industry, a proof of concept model is, does it the model work? When you press the button, does the outcome happen the way you want it to? But for the initial projects, people ask for a proof of concept and they want to know, does it steer in the vessel properly? Does it cut an ablate tissue to the same effect? And so one of the nice things about being around for a long time is you have all kinds of great opportunities to make a lot of mistakes

so do you know what not to do and what to do and differentiating the two different kinds of proof of concept models was something I learned pretty early on. You got it, got it. And in your experience, Allison, is, are most R&D folks, are they utilizing models up front, or like in this sort of idea stage? I don't, I think that there is,

that there's some people that do, certainly R&D people understand the merits better because they are by nature more creative and trying to find solutions and you know you can see them trying all different kinds of things you see them cobbling up their own fixtures and things but that's not what they're supposed to that's not what they're charged to do

what they're charged to do is do the device and it becomes all these sort of sub-projects that distract from the main program So I think that more than professional education or sales and marketing, the R&D people sort of get it the benefit of a model more so. But I think that there needs to be a much greater awareness to the amount of money that you can save by doing that so that there is a budget to go outside to actually getting them done. Right. Right. No, that makes a sense.

And then the other point you mentioned too is just the inconsistency of the, you know, animal labs and whether or not your early, your idea for this particular device is actually going to work is often tested in animal labs, which there's some inconsistency there. Right, you can make, you can engineer the model, you know, mostly because the materials are limited. Right. But the processes that you used to make, make them are going to yield the exact same model every single time, whereas if you have, you know, eight different porcine, you know,

models, then you're going to get different feedback, the tissue properties will be different on each one. And it can cause unwanted variables. Eventually, you have to address that, but early on, and you're trying

to eliminate, you know, more like a scientific method, you try to eliminate the variables except for the one thing that you're studying. And so it can be beneficial for that purpose as well. Got it. Got it. And I think there's probably a decent percentage of the audience that's listening to this interview that will be familiar with kind of the lean startup methodology.

And I know Eric Reese authored a book recently, maybe a year ago or so, something like that. But it's specific to the tech world. It's a lot easier to iterate quickly when you can really just build out a web page. And within, you know, a half a day's work, you know, you can iterate on that. that model, design it differently, code it differently. But that's a much more difficult task when you're actually developing an actual product to iterate quickly.

And it would seem that models would be not only a faster way to iterate quicker, I should say, but definitely a less expensive way to iterate on your particular idea. I have 20 years in the prototyping industry. And even for a moment putting the anatomy models side, every time you make a prototype, you'll learn something. And so the more prototypes you learn, you can sort of juice the development cycle and make

it go faster by making more prototypes. Your learning is exponential. So prototype early prototype often is one of the adages, I believe, for a quick, accelerated development cycle for the devices themselves. certainly having something to test them on that's really convenient that you don't have to schedule ahead of time and it doesn't require lab technicians just makes the process much more easy and convenient. Right.

I love that quote, juice the development cycle through the idea of prototype early prototype often. No, that's a great statement. So let's move on to education. Because I know from my particular experience, when going to, you know, HCP or physician training courses, I often leave there thinking that model that was used, if I could only utilize that in the field, or if I could only, like, steal that and take it with me, you know, my sales would definitely increase, if not go through the roof, because it's not only a clear way to

differentiate, you know, my particular device from the competition, but it's a great way to add some value to a position. So maybe you can speak to that where, where, in your experience, medical device models are both used and underused in terms of professional education. Sure. Well, I can talk a little bit about a specific program that we're in the middle of or toward the end of for a professional education program. It's an insufflatable laparoscopic trainer for hernia repair. and the way my client was kind enough

to invite me to one of their training sessions for the physicians and again it was a lecture from the physician and then the foreseen lab and on that particular occasion they weren't using our models

but that is a big cumbersome program to invite surgeons in to train them and having having to set up the whole lab, the cost of the lab and the cost of the animals, and everybody has to take a day off and travel from wherever they're coming from. So it's extremely inconvenient and costly.

Obviously, the benefit is that it's real tissue. Sometimes the drawback is that, yes, it's real tissue, but the geometry or the anatomy is completely different. So sometimes a model is required. But what they're doing with my model is that they can take this insufflatable trainer on the road and help and do the training more conveniently even in a physician's office. I asked them what they would need in order to stop doing the Porcine Labs completely and just use our model.

and what they wanted is that they want their tack to seat properly in the tissue, in the consumable part of the product, which is something that we've just accomplished. So my hope is that they can eliminate the labs completely, which is a tremendous cost savings, both in the cost of the lab and then the cost of the time for the physicians and the logistical difficulties of flying. people around and having them stay overnight.

Got it. That makes a ton of sense, especially considering, you know, most medical device companies are operating on, on margins that are shrinking and shrinking by the day. And so if you can pursue or even consider, you know, alternatives to physician training outside of expensive, you know, cadaver lab environment, I got to think that's definitely worth it. Yeah. I have all kinds of ideas on how that could be. You can even, you know, given the type of model that is the insufflatable laparoscopic trainer is big

and not, you know, it's not really an inexpensive model. But if it was a procedure that could be accommodated by a smaller model, you can send those models out to your physicians and have them practice in the comfort of their own office or homes, without anybody looking over their shoulder until they were comfortable. You know, the process of learning, you know, is to me pretty interesting. And for me personally, there's usually that period of frustration where I don't get it yet, but I want to. And I'd rather experience that on my own as opposed to in front of a whole bunch of other people that are watching me fumble around. So to me, you know, if there's an opportunity to make those training models and some sort of

that you could then send out and give those physicians their own personal time to work through the procedure, I think that would be a great idea. That's a fantastic point. I'm glad you brought that up because I've been to those sort of training experiences where physicians are hesitant to engage in the actual hands-on component because they're around their peers. They don't want to look like the idiot doctor that finished last in his particular medical school class. And there is. there's a legitimate hesitation versus I would venture to think that you give that you give that model or that hands-on sort of experience that position on his or her own time, it's going to be,

you know, a lot more valuable for both the position and the company that's providing the education. And I think your dog probably agrees with me there, it sounds like, right? Yeah, my point. Yeah, he feels very strongly about that. That's right, that's right. No, but that's a fantastic point. one that I really didn't think about, but I'm just kind of realizing now as we're conversing, that that makes a ton of sense. Yeah. Beyond that, though, I mentioned this earlier on in the interview, that apps, there's a lot,

there's an intense focus, a lot of focus across the board, whether the medical device company is a startup versus a large strategic. There's a lot of focus on app development and utilizing iPads to, you know, as demos or, or, you know, or models for your particular device. But in my experience, and again, this is kind of through my own lens, a lot of physicians would prefer the hands-on component. And maybe you can speak to that. Yeah, we do apps as well.

As a matter of fact, my next appointment this afternoon is with a company that has an app and there's certain advantages to being able to do an animation. but if there's an opportunity to make a model where you're engaging somebody in a physical experience, it's always a more compelling learning experience. The more senses that you engage, you know, sight and hearing, you know, the better. And then if you can then additionally engage touch and create a real experience, not just an intellectual experience, but a physical experience, that's really unparalleled. I have a corny saying that I've put at the bottom of all my emails,

and I think I even have it on my website. If a picture is worth a thousand words, a model is worth a million. Also, by nature, surgeons are hands-on people, you know, and that's something that they relate with. In some cases, from my point of view, they're expert craft people and touch is part of what they do and the way they think. so I think a model is even more apropos for an audience like that. Right.

So, but with that said, though, I think the drawback, the potential challenge is that is, is if I develop, it's going to cost me a lot less money to develop an app for the iOS or Android, but I think most of the focuses on an iOS right now. Not necessarily. No? Not necessarily. I mean, you know, first of all, you can spend lots and lots of money on an app, But the app program that I just did for the client, you know, I think it was, you know, $30,000 to do this app.

I can't remember how long it lasted. But there's animations and, you know, there's all different levels of sophistication. But I've done model programs for less money than that. So it doesn't necessarily have to do with price. I'm by nature personally like to boil things down to the absolute essence and the least amount of sand fare you need to get your message across. People don't have a lot of time and the more complicated you make it,

I think the more confusing and the more expense. So although it's never specifically a criteria for my clients, one of my criteria is that it's as simple and as easy to understand and to make as possible, and thus keeping the cost down. That's interesting, and now is a good time to kind of interject this question, and it's actually a question that I got in advance of the interview from the audience. And for those of you listening, if you do want to submit a question in advance of the interview, just go to Medsider.com forward slash on deck, or just go to Medsider.com,

and there's a tab for OnDec. There's the OnDack circle where the next Medsider guest, there's a chance where there's an opportunity to submit questions in advance. But this particular question from the audience is what does a typical model cost, a medical device model? And I presume it's all over the board, but maybe if you can give us some sort of an idea of what it costs. Yeah, typical isn't, you know, it's funny. There is some sort of typical. But there's sort of two categories of these models.

One is something that I would consider production, which would be 1,000 or preferably 3,000 or more, which is more of a marketing model. If you go into a quantity like that, then I can buy real tooling and use regular production methods to make it. And so the upfront cost might be more, but for instance, you know, the Alcon project that we did was $20 a piece that they ordered 3,000 units.

I think that the Hullogic one, they ordered like 14,000 units. And I think the price is somewhere around $15 each. So if you're ordering the quantity. I mean, granted, those are large quantities, but that's shockingly low. I would have expected the price to be a lot higher than that. Well, you know, my background is product development. And I think that some people that do work in this space are more average. and are used to working with pharma people.

And they have a much greater expectation of how much money they can make from each project. You know, my paradigm is, you know, R&D always has less money than sales and marketing. And but I'm used to, and I also, I should mention me and my team were from really, our backgrounds are from the toy industry. So we understand how to cost reduce and do things cheaply in a way that medical people never even consider. And so the cost to me is primary. You know what?

It's the number one criteria as far as I'm concerned. That's the hardest to meet. So when people call and say, oh, you know, I don't have a budget just tell me how much it is, that's like me, you know, asking an architect to, can you put me an addition, but I don't have any plan at all. So, you know, you could build an addition for $5,000 and you could build a, you could build in addition for $5 million. The budget is the number one criteria that is the hardest one to meet.

And let's not try to guess at that. Some people have zero idea, which I could sort of understand. I mean, there's certain industries that if I asked for a quote, I wouldn't even know what budget to plan. But with a little bit of dialogue, you know, we can sort of work that stuff out. But in the absence of a budget, I usually am happy to give them a quote, but I would always default to the most comprehensive best case model with the agreement that the client will not run away screaming,

but then talk to me about what the compromises could be now that they sort of get a feeling for what the price would be for the optimal scenario. And as long as they're willing to work with me once they see that price, and we can sort of back down from that, I'm always happy to give them the quote. Got it. Yeah, but I'm, and I certainly don't expect you to say, you know, each model is going to cost approximately $100, but that's really interesting that you mentioned the cost can be as low. Because I sort of like, without knowing anything about what developing a model entails, somewhat expected it to be at least a couple hundred bucks, if not like approaching $1,000. Well, it is. So I started off with two, there's two basic scenarios.

One is the 1,000, 3,000, 5,000, 10,000, and that allows us to make production tooling and keep the cost down. A lot of people need 25 or 50. And what that means is that we're making it up prototyping technologies, which are closer to what you're thinking. And that is absolutely correct. So, you know, we just did a project for a division of angiotech, and each model was a few hundred dollars because they're only ordering 25 or 50 at a time, and they're made out of prototyping materials. These particular models have a flesh-like feeling to them, and we're using prototyping methods to achieve that, and the cost for those is higher.

And certainly for the professional education model, so far, the programs we've done haven't exceeded more than a dozen or 20. And again, those are much more money. You know, the insufflatable laparoscopic trainer that comes with, you know, the camera and the scope and the light and the display and the pump and a case and, you know, You know, that's a $10,000 each with, you know, $150,000 up front R&D costs. So depending on what you're trying to do, you know, depends on the cost. But for the marketing models, as long as you say you can use, you know, we prefer $3,000, but we could do $1,000. As long as you're coming with a larger quantity, then it's a whole different ballgame when it comes to the price. Got it.

So basically the moral of the story is that if you're a medical device company, you're contemplating having models built and developed, if you have intention of potentially using this as a sales and marketing tool, your cost could be a lot lower than you may initially expect. Right. And one of the, you know, I have what I call my anatomy questionnaire, spec sheet. And what that does is it allows, it's all the questions that I want to know in order to give you the value add.

I don't want somebody coming to me and say, can you make me this uterus? I want to find out what is their business objective and the bigger picture of what they're trying to communicate. And then I'll give them the concepts. That's the value add we have. We give them the concepts on how to do that. And one of the questions on that form is,

are there any other departments besides your own that can benefit from a model like this? Because then, A, you could get perhaps more than one budget and, you know, to use it completely contrived, saying you can kill two birds with one stone. And sometimes, you know, if you involve another department, the feature that they want to add might not drive the cost up at all. So it's always good to try to look at the big picture initially.

I might say, you know what, that actually makes it exponentially more money, but it might not, and it's always good to look at it ahead of time. Yeah, yeah. Those are some great points, and I love the fact that you brought up your personal background as well as the rest of your team and their corresponding backgrounds in regards to toy manufacturing or toy toy development, and that allows you to sort of scale models at potentially reduced cost because of that experience. That's really interesting because I noticed that in doing research for this interview, Tyco Toys was listed as one of your old stories. I know that's interesting,

but it certainly comes into play now that you mentioned the idea of reducing the cost of development because of that background. That's interesting. So let's move on from, because I know we're running a little short on time here, but let's move on to sales and marketing. And we've, of course, kind of covered some of these points. But I would imagine that you've worked with a, and I mentioned that quote from Hologics early when we first started the interview, but building out models, hands-on models for device companies can make a huge impact in terms of sales and marketing. And I think one of the, I think it's maybe on your website or maybe on one of your marketing pieces, you mentioned the Play-Doh effect and being able to create strong brands and memories via that effect.

And I think that's interesting. So maybe we can start there with the Play-Doh effect to get your thoughts on that. Well, you know, if you're touching it, you're creating an experience and you don't necessarily, then you don't, you know, you're creating your own experience and you can come to your own conclusions and you do not need to trust the word of your salesperson. To me, it's sort of a nice way to not so much worry about the soft skills of your sales force. If your product is just so loudly speaking for itself, perhaps it doesn't, you know, it doesn't necessitate as strong emphasis on the relationship between the person and the end user. You know, it allows the marketing team to engineer that interaction better. Right.

Yeah, and you mentioned this earlier regarding kind of the multi-century aspect of models, But, you know, while we're on the topic of kind of Play-Doh, I mean, you're utilizing a lot of different senses there from touch to vision to potentially, you know, the auditory component as well. There's a lot of senses there which allows you to walk away, a potential salesperson to walk away or a marketing person at trade show, for example, to make an impact on a current or potential physician customer where that, you know, when they leave the sales car or they leave the conference. booth, they're going to walk away with a pretty strong memory of that particular device and maybe that particular company. Right. It's sort of like, back to the toy analogy, it's sort of like, you know, you go into the toy aisle and a lot of the toys have the try me button, right?

Yeah. You know, so you can let the product sell itself. You know, how many medical devices do you get sort of the opportunity for try me? Mm-hmm. And that's sort of what we're trying to do, is you get to try it on your own before you make the commitment to buy it. Yep, yep. And speaking of try, I've personally experienced this as well in that, you know, before walking into a case where a physician is going to use your particular device for the first time, having some sort of model in place makes a huge, a huge impact because that first case may be. you may get one shot with that particular physician,

and if that case doesn't go well with your device, it makes all the difference in the world. And so being able to have a model, like a hands-on model where that physician can sort of practice before they actually utilize it in an actual human, that's a huge, a really big deal, really big deal. Yeah. And like I said, before, you can engineer that experience.

You know, between myself and the marketing team, they can engineer the interaction and we can plan the outcome. We can make sure that the device works as intended so that there's less chance. It's almost, it's not so much scripted, but you're controlling the outcome if you create a little sort of a kit that walks you through the procedure and it comes out the same every time at the end.

Right. Which is with a big smile and, hey, that really works well. We're engineering experiences and engaging in the customer. Yeah, that's another really good quote. I think the one earlier you mentioned is juice the development cycle. That's another one. You're able to engineer the experience or engineer the outcome. But no, it's a really good point.

Especially when you're dealing with a one. variety of sales methods and sales methodologies, this allows you to really kind of sort of script out what that may look like for a potential customer. We also have this idea and you know we haven't been at this a terribly long time so I haven't seen this in action yet but I love the idea of, you know, let's say you're a startup and perhaps you don't have unlimited budget, actually nobody has an unlimited budget. you have, you know, 400 thoracic surgeons that are your target audience, but you have a dozen salespeople.

You know, how are you going to reach that audience in a meaningful way in the shortest period of time possible? And I have this idea, you know, and I've yet to sort of convince anybody to do it yet because it's a newer idea, but maybe we make 400 models. and we send them out to those 400 thoracic surgeons. And instead of getting a brochure where they're likely maybe to not open it or maybe open it and look at it for 20 seconds like I would, somebody that sent me an email, you get a model in the mail,

and that's kind of exciting. It's like a present. And you're going to say, what is this? You're going to be curious. You're going to open it up. And there's going to be like a little, you know, maybe it's like a little game. or a little experience. I bet you that they're significantly more likely to try your device

and work with that model if you send it to them and have them remember it, especially since it's going to sit on their desk afterwards because it's going to be really cool that I mentioned. It's going to look really cool. And maybe they'll even play with it when it went on their phone. But you're delivering experience with no salesperson. and so maybe the cost of doing the program is that of hiring one salesperson for a year, but you're reaching 400 people in your target audience or maybe 3,000 or, you know, depending on how big your market is.

Right. No, that's a really interesting point. I think it's definitely worthy of consideration, considering how expensive it is to commercialize device these days. But it reminds me of a story. I'm not sure if you've heard of the technology, grasshopper.com, which is, it's like, like a, it allows small businesses to get a 1,800 number and kind of call system on the cheap for a relatively low monthly cost. But I know when they initially launched to help create buzz in the media, they sent, you know, they selected, you know, I can't remember exactly how many, but it was, you know, a couple hundred high profile journalists. And they sent, I think,

chocolate covered, like a whole set of like chocolate covered grasshoppers, like edible chocolate covered grasshoppers, like edible chocolate-covered grasshoppers, you know, in order to make an impression because they realize sending an email or sending some sort of, you know, PR release to these high-profile journalists, it wasn't going to get them anywhere. And I think your idea, you know, speaks to that, speaks to the idea of making an impact to a relatively select audience on the cheap, you know. Right. It makes an impact and it's educational and it has your brand on it.

And because it's educational, you know, you can. can actually give that as a way, whereas, you know, the FDA now does not allow you to give away sticky pads with your logo and all kinds of other gifts and mugs and stuff. So this is actually a way to keep, to make an impact, to have your brand in front of them, to engineer a positive experience and stretch your Salesforce and actually have it leave behind. Yep. So maybe I'll get some. You'll have to let me know.

If you get a company to bite on that, you'll have to let me know. I'm going to say. I'll make sure that gets noticed if the company does. I'll call you back. I just take action on that idea because I personally think it's a great one. So let's do this. We're running short on time. We've covered R&D, professional education and sales and marketing

and how to better utilize medical device models. Let's end it with this question. You've got, Alison, you've got a ton of experience in the world of medical devices, from prototyping to, to, to, to, to, do, to the development of models and on and on. What, what, you know, what's, if you can think of one, maybe one or two things that, that you now know, that you wish you knew, you know, 10, 15, 20 years ago when you first got started in this game. Wow.

I sort of touched on some of them, you know, like, you know, prototyping early and often. And, you know, models, I am a, I'm a huge proponent of, of, of prototyping. In general, I actually lecture on prototyping at Penn and MIT, and most people think about prototyping, and they start thinking about the technical part of rapid prototyping in SLA and all the processes. But prototypes are tools for communication or learning, and whether you're using them to develop the devices or to tell the story of how they work, you know, they tease that I was going to put on my business card analog. Allison, you know, the idea of touch and creating experience as opposed to digital. You know, maybe I'm sort of going backwards, you know, in the technology age, or maybe

that's what people really are hungering for now that everything is sort of virtual. And so prototyping is something that I think people should do. more of and early on and more often for the device development. As far as as what I've learned, actually I do have some things to tell you

about what I've learned, but it's more because of the fact that I'm a salesperson, which I think some of the value that I bring to the clients is I sort of have two rules of dealing with customers and is one is

absolutely no surprises. You know, people expect that there will be hiccups and things will go wrong, but they don't want to be surprised by it. So in order to have a program go smoothly, I try to do the best I can to set their expectations and let them know what the risks are and what the areas that were nervous or what the areas that could perhaps cost more money or cause delay. even in the event that I don't have that completely worked out. You know, I've seen people, you know, they ship something and they hope that the client's going to like it when they know deep down inside there's a problem.

You know, you just never want to surprise anybody. You always want to let them know. So my number one rule is no surprises and try to manage the expectations. And as far as salespeople are concerned, really these models, are about convenience. You know, they're all about having them be minimal and easy to carry around. I am completely and totally personally against schlepping anything. You know, the more samples I could take out of my case, the happier I am.

And so when I design these models, I make them as abbreviated as I can possibly get away with, for one for just the physical carrying around and two that that helps for cost. So there's some meandering things that I've learned. No, no, that's some great stuff and I can definitely tell throughout our conversation that you've got a sales and marketing background, not just in your, not just from a creative standpoint, but you kind of know what it's like to carry a bag and try to pitch a product. So, no, that's great, that's great stuff. great stuff. And for those that are listening that have stuck with us throughout this, you know,

30, 35 minutes here, where would you direct them to if they want to learn more about models, about Pulse R&D? Where's the best place for them to get in touch with you or to learn more about your company? Well, you know, our website is PulseRND.com. Robert, Nancy, drew, R&D.com. But the best way to do it is to call me up and tell me what is your key message. you don't need to know anything else. You know, a lot of our clients, especially, you know, sales and marketing and professional education, they're not R&D people and they're not, they require a different skill set than my team of creative people.

And so the barrier to entry is that they don't have the vision of what could be. And so all they need to do is say, you know, I really need to get the message that my catheter steers better across, or I really need to get the message that my, you know, heart ring is flexible in a different way than the competitors. Whatever that key strategic message is, that's all I need to know. And I've actually contacted clients by reaching out to them having them had never called me where I just look at their website. I see what their product is and I see what their key differentiator is and I'll draw up a concept

and send it to them and they'll be like, wow. And so, you know, I don't need somebody to tell me what the model is. want needs to be I need them to tell me and this is the same as I give for my lectures at at the colleges is what do you want to model what do you want to accomplish and how many do you want to make and those it as long as I have you know on the budget would be great but even without that I can propose something and there is no cost to do that yeah that's it that's a great idea is what what start with the vision and what do you want what message you want to

get across versus you know focusing too much on what's this model going to look like and the, and the, uh, the, the, the details and going too far into weeds, but to really start from a kind of a 30,000 foot overview of, of what is this, what is the, the message that you're trying to communicate. Now, that, that's great stuff. So for those listening, Pulse R-D, P-U-L-S-E-R-N-D.com, not, not R-N-D, but PulseR-N-D.com. And then, Alison, what's, you want to go ahead and leave your phone number as well? Yes, it's 267-753-0870, and my extension is 1004. Got it.

And for those listening, I'll definitely link up in the show notes to Pulse R&D, and this number will be listed in the transcripts online at Medsider.com. So very good. Thanks a ton for doing the interview, Allison. Really appreciate you coming on. This was really interesting. really interesting topic that could potentially have a really big impact for a lot of different device companies, an impact that may, that may not have been, that doesn't probably get as much

attention as it potentially could be. So thanks again for coming on. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. It's my pleasure. And I'll have you hold on the line here, Allison. But for those listening, thank you for your attention throughout the course of this interview. really appreciate it. And just remember as a reminder, you can find these interviews on iTunes. Just do a search for Medsider, M-E-D-S-I-D-E-R, and you can subscribe to the podcast for free. That way all the new episodes are automatically downloaded to your iTunes account or to your whatever mechanism you use to subscribe to podcast. So anyway, until the next episode of Medsider, everyone take care.