Medsider: Learn from Medtech and Healthtech Founders and CEOs - Forging Win-Win Collaborations in Healthcare: Interview with Reimagine Care CEO Dan Nardi

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

In this episode of Medsider Radio, we had an insightful chat with Dan Nardi, CEO of Reimagine Care, a startup that integrates clinical oncology experts and robust capabilities to deliver individualized cancer treatment and recovery experience from home.Dan has over two decades of experience in healthcare IT and digital health. Before Reimagine Care, he served as COO at Carrum Health, where he focused on value-based care and oversaw operations, including care delivery and growth. He also played a key role in scaling Livongo from 13 employees to its IPO as Vice President of Operations. In this interview, Dan shares how he forms strategic partnerships that prioritize long-term value over short-term gains, how to leverage early adopters, and how he’s positioned his company in the emerging fee-for-value healthcare model.Before we dive into the discussion, I wanted to mention a few things:First, if you’re into learning from medical device and health technology founders and CEOs, and want to know when new interviews are live, head over to Medsider.com and sign up for our free newsletter.Second, if you want to peek behind the curtain of the world's most successful startups, you should consider a Medsider premium membership. You’ll learn the strategies and tactics that founders and CEOs use to build and grow companies like Silk Road Medical, AliveCor, Shockwave Medical, and hundreds more!We recently introduced some fantastic additions exclusively for Medsider premium members, including playbooks, which are curated collections of our top Medsider interviews on key topics like capital fundraising and risk mitigation, and a curated investor database to help you discover your next medical device or health technology investor!In addition to the entire back catalog of Medsider interviews over the past decade, premium members also get a copy of every volume of Medsider Mentors at no additional cost, including the latest Medsider Mentors Volume VI. If you’re interested, go to medsider.com/subscribe to learn more.Lastly, if you'd rather read than listen, here's a link to the full interview with Dan Nardi.

You want it to be partnerships. You don't want it to be client vendor and you don't want it to be like, hey, I'm just going to like, you know, tighten the screws as much as possible and, you know, get everything I can in the short term. That doesn't establish that long-term partnership, longevity, and all of that together. It's just going to be extremely important for building a business, right, at scale. Because the last thing you want to do is have a partnership, allows you to get to market, and all of a sudden, that partnership falls apart. Welcome to Medsider, where you can learn from the brightest founders and CEOs, in medical devices and health technology.

Join tens of thousands of ambitious doers as we unpack the insights, tactics, and secrets behind the most successful life science startups in the world. Now here's your host, Scott Nelson. Hey everyone, in this episode of MedSider, I sat down with Dan Nardi, CEO of Reimagined Care. Dan is over two decades of experience in healthcare IT and digital health. And before Reimagined, he served as COO at CareM Health,

where he focused on value-based care and oversop operations, including care delivery and growth. Dan also played a key role in scaling Livango from 13 employees to its IPO as VP of operations. Here for you the key things that we discussed in this conversation. First, partnerships are essential for growth in the healthcare space. Focus on building strategic alliances that leverage both your core competencies and those of your partners.

Prioritize long-term win-win collaborations over short-term gains. And be selective when choosing your partners. Don't hesitate to walk away from deals that don't align with your long-term goals. Second, if you're disrupting a market, early adopters are your life-vest, but they aren't enough. Work closely with them to demonstrate the value in ROI while further proving its outcomes through studies and clinical trials. Gather robust data to give in its larger stakeholders and secure wider reimbursement. Third, healthcare has been slowly shifting from a fee-for-service model to a fee-for-value model. When introducing novel solutions, it's important to understand the incumbents, key stakeholders, and the flow of funds.

To build a venture that generates long-term value, be selective with your investors, support risk-based agreements, where payment is tied to patient outcomes instead of a one-time service and make sure you clearly demonstrate the ROI of your solution. Before we jump into this episode, I wanted to let you know that the latest edition of MedSider Mentors is now live. We just published Volume 6, which summarizes the key learnings from the most popular interviews over the last several months with incredible entrepreneurs like Dan Rose, former CEO of Limflow, Dr. Stephen Michelson, founder of Ferapulse, and current CEO of

field medical and other leaders of some of the hottest startups in the space. look, it's tough to listen or read every Medsider interview that comes out, even the best ones. But there are so many valuable lessons you can pick up from the founders and CEOs that join our program. So that's why we decided to create Medsider mentors. It's the easiest way for you to learn from the world's best medical device and health technology entrepreneurs in one central place. To check out the latest volume, head over to MedsiderRadio.com forward slash mentors. Premium members get free access to all past and future volumes. And if you're not a premium member yet, you should definitely consider signing up.

In addition to every volume of Medsider mentors, you'll get full access to the entire library of interviews dating back to 2010. You'll also be able to see all of our playbooks, which are thematically handpicked collections of the most insightful interviews covering topics like capital fundraising, early stage development, regulatory challenges, reimbursement, M&A, and much more. And last, considering that fundraising could be one of the most daunting tasks for any startup, we curated a database of over 700 VC funds, private equity firms, angel groups, and more, all eager to invest in medical device and health technology startups. access to this database is a premium member exclusive, so don't miss out. Learn more about Medsider mentors and our premium memberships by visiting Medsiderradio.com forward slash mentors. All right, without further ado, let's jump right into the interview. All right, Dan, welcome to Medsider.

Appreciate you coming on. Thanks for having me, Scott. Happy be here. Yeah, really looking forward to the conversation, learning a little bit more about your journey in the healthcare ecosystem as well as what you've been building at Reimagined Care. So with that said, I recorded a very brief bio at the outside of this episode, but let's start here. I don't expect you to go line by line through your resume by any stretch of imagination, but give us a sense for what you've been doing leading up to taking on the CEO role.

I appreciate that. I think about my career in two halves, right? The first half, I spent a very long stint at Allscripts and really learned at an early stage of my career all about growing businesses when I was too young to really appreciate it, I think. We had a great run and really built an amazing business. And as that organization got to be thousands of employees, I think I realized that I actually enjoyed smaller team. So then the second half of my career, I transitioned into more of the startup scene. And that's where I've been now for past 11 plus years and had a really exciting and great run at Lavango, joined very early.

Obviously, from the AllScripts experience, got to know Glenn and Lee and Joe and the team. Had a great run, ran that up to the IPO. And then took a little bit of time off, which was needed as you're going through these startups. We all need a little time to decompress. And then I was very happy to have the opportunity to jump in with Karam, so Centers of Excellence platforms and continuing on solutions with employers, but then marrying up Centers of Excellence and had a great run, joined there early, worked with Sach and Brent and the team, and built that up to a couple hundred employees there.

And then we had the opportunity to join Reimagined Care. And I've been on board here almost a year. I wasn't looking to make a change. as I got to learn the team, as I got to know a little bit more about the solution and the offering, it was a really hard decision to say no to. So everyone is impacted by cancer at some point. And so the opportunity and the solutions here really gives a great opportunity for me to step into this role. And I've been off to the races since.

Yeah, that's awesome. And yeah, you've been with some really high profile companies that have been, that I'd imagine to help to supercharge a lot of that growth. But you mentioned something that I've touched on in a few. podcast that I've recorded recently on the other side of the table where, like, what do I wish I knew about startups before I got jumped into the scene and you hit on something? They're tough. They can be extremely rewarding and a lot of fun. But if you don't have, if you don't go into them, eyes wide open under the guys that oftentimes you do need to break after maybe seeing some sort

of exit or liquidity event or something like that. It's very common to take a break just because they are very, very tough. So if you're listening to this, maybe we'll get into this in a little bit more detail. But if you're listening to this and attracted to the startup scene, again, they be a lot of fun, but definitely a lot of work. So going to my eyes, eyes wide open, no doubt. But Reimagined Care. So for those listening that aren't familiar, I've never heard of Reimagined Care, like maybe start at a high level with kind of what your, the larger challenge that your team is trying to solve. And if you want to drill into, or double-click into anything in particular, just under the guys that just try to get a high-level sense of kind of what

you guys are doing, that'd be helpful. Of course. Yeah. So at Reimagined Care, we've built the foundation for the industry's first virtual cancer center. And fundamentally, I always like to start or their why, because I think that's extremely important, right? We believe that all patients going through the cancer journey deserve the highest quality care in the comfort of their own home, around the ones they love, and doing more of what they enjoy. And our traditional cancer journey, it takes a lot. There's a financial toxicity.

There's a time toxicity that we impose on patients and their caregivers, and even the providers as well. But what we've built out, and I mentioned virtual cancer center, so we have programs such as proactive symptom management, we have medication management, even working on treatment at home. And all of these, what we're able to do is we take a technology platform, sorry, got an AI-based virtual assistant and a larger technology platform. We combine that with oncology trained nurses, oncology trained APPs, our medical director, and we're able to then partner and bring solutions to health systems and community practices and AMCs, basically any team that is currently providing care and treatment

or cancer patients, we partner with them and we are able to be an extension of the already great care that they provide in a clinic in the four walls. We are able to provide that and extend it into the virtual and the home setting. And so that's what we're all about, right. And there's a whole value prop that we're able to talk about with optimizing workforce and increasing the volume that these systems are able to do. But that at the highest level is what we're all about. Got it.

And reimaginedcare.com is the website. We'll link to it in the full right up on MedSider. but it's spelled exactly as you think, reimaginedcare.com. But I love the approach. I'm sure you've seen this feedback in a lot more detail than even I have. But even just scrolling Twitter, it's not uncommon for me to see someone in like a high profile Silicon Valley tech startup, make a comment that they recently had surgery or recently had some sort of health issue and trying to navigate the system is for those that aren't like

dealing in it, kind of a daily weekly basis, can be extremely daunting. And it's probably, I would imagine, exacerbated, right? within the world of oncology, just the complexion of the disease, the wide variety of treatments, the stress just from someone recently being diagnosed with cancer, et cetera. Yeah, I'm looking forward to learning a little bit more about what you guys are doing. It's funny. You make the comment about for those that aren't in the healthcare system, it's hard to navigate. I'll tell you, Scott, even people in the healthcare system, it's hard to navigate.

Like, it's not easy. We have a very complex health care system that we've, over the decades, imposed upon ourselves, unfortunately. But there's not weeks that go by that they don't have friends or family or colleagues that are reaching out being like, hey, I'm stuck here, right? Or got a family member that was just recently diagnosed. What do we do? Or how do we make sure that we're getting the right opinions and the pathways? And it's just, it's a very challenging healthcare system. And so I think the more that we can, A, just acknowledge that, B, work on solutions to try and solve that and make it more simple for everyone. But then in the meantime, how can we see help support each other?

through it. Yeah, no doubt. And I've sent most of my career in Metac and the broader healthcare ecosystem. And even just recently, like my mom's had an accelerated case of dementia and like just mental challenges, if you will, cognitive challenges. And like trying to navigate that for someone like myself that's used to like what special what specialist to send her to. And then like for my dad to have to like make all these appointments and whatnot, it's to your point. It could be daunting even for those of us that are used to trying to work within this, this huge monster of a complex sort of ecosystem, them, if you will. With that said, when it comes to what you're building, what you're commercializing it, reimagine, give us a high level overview of where you're at in terms

of lifecycle. It appears that if I was a potential sort of customer, if you were patient, I could take advantage of this. Maybe there's a little bit more, maybe add some a little bit more context in terms of where your team is at. All right, absolutely. So stage of business. So we are, we're Series A funded. We've been at this now for just over three years. We've got enough runway to get us for a little while. So we're in a good shape. We're starting to and when the next round of funding one, we're going to go for our B. But we're in a good spot right now. We have, I'd like to say we've achieved product market fit. We have paying customers across the healthcare space. We've got some really great names, City of Hope, CPCBD down in Dallas,

Memorial Hermon, University of Colorado. We have organizations that are up and live and proven outcomes, which is a really great spot to be in. We've got some really great partnerships that we continue to work with and dispatch out Memorial to expand how we're able to deliver. all of these services. So we're in a really good spot. We, like I said, we got runway for a little bit. We're going to be going for a B round and really excited to be able to take that next round of funding. And we're already working on what are the programs are going to be building out with it. At the highest level, that's where we're at. Also, one other partnership, we have the Cancer X, the public-private partnership with the government, as well as a couple of organizations.

We're one of the original founding members. We're really excited and proud to be one of the initial cohort members for the accelerator program. First, a program that they had for the accelerators, over 100 different startups in the oncology space, applied, and we were one of the 16 finalists. Really proud of our continued growth there, just further validation that what we're building has legs and is being effective. That's cool. And for anyone that's like leaning in, like to Dan's sort of description of the business, as well as to like some of these collaborations and partnerships that they've been building, and definitely encourage you everyone to check the website reimaginecare.com. We'll link to it again in the full write-up on a mensider. So with that said,

let's rewind the clock a little bit and go back in time to learn more about not only your journey with again, some really high growth startups that have been pretty prolific, but also reimagined specifically. And we'll maybe chat about some of these sort of cross-functional topics, if you will, over the next 20 or 30 minutes. First one is actually something that you just hit on, which is partnership. So anyone that checks out like the news page or any of your recent press releases, is not quickly, I guess what surfaces is this kind of what appears to be a kind of unique ability or you've been quite successful in establishing some of these partnerships, right? Whether it's venture partners, whether it's sort of customer partnerships,

whether it's partnerships within the broader ecosystem. And so I guess the first question I'd love to get your take on is for other founders, other CEOs, whether they're working on a med tech company or something in digital health, whatever, we're always wanting to establish like more formidable right collaborations or partnerships to help drive the business forward, help drive the product forward, et cetera. So when you think about some of the successes that you've had, not just with reimagined, but maybe in your prior life, what have been some of those key things that you think have led to some of those existing collaborations and partnerships.

Yeah, I think that's a really important question, especially in startups, whether you're a founder just getting off the ground or whether you're joining an A, B, C, round company, you're never going to be able to do it all on your own. And I think that's really important just to acknowledge that right up front. So what does that mean? We all talk about this build by partner decision as you're going. And I think that's sometimes it's used, but not really understood that phrase. I think it really is important, especially in the earlier stages, as you're thinking.

about starting a business or getting it like differentiating yourself in the market, you have to be thoughtful of what do I want to own? What is my secret sauce here at this company, our secret sauce as a team? Like, what do we want to be known for? What are we going on to be great at? And then start to take all the pieces apart, right? That's where the engineering background that I love that. Take all the pieces apart. And you start thinking about what is already like, what is someone already doing really well? Maybe there's part of it that's almost like a commodity that we might be able to say, I don't need to spend time and money and resources being able to build that because there's already a couple companies doing great at that.

So let's go partner with them and bring them in. That allows you to focus on what's really going to differentiate your offering and your solution and allow you to get to market faster. So I think it's really important to dissect it all and then really understand what do you want to be known for and what do you want to be great at. And then it gets into the fun part of it. Let's find those other organizations, right? And let's go partner with them.

And then partnerships, they have to be set up so that. both parties are going to win, right? If you end up, like, you could end up with a really great deal and like, I negotiated the heck out of that and got a really great rate. But at the end of the day, if they aren't able to be successful, if they aren't able to make money at some point, then your whole thing's going to fall apart because they're going to fall part. And so you have to make sure that it's a win for everyone involved.

And it's not only identifying the right partners that are aligned with where you're headed collectively, but then make sure the incentives are aligned as well as you're establishing those partnerships. Yeah, that's such a good point because it's so easy to, get so easy to follow in this very near-term perspective, right? Like, this tends to be overly transactional. And establishing a partnership could be, could maybe look really good, right, over the next whatever, three, six, nine months, 12 months, et cetera.

But if it doesn't have stickiness over the long term, it's likely not going to, you know, pay off or pay long-term dividends anyway. So, yeah, that's a really good point. Not just about making sure it's a win, but making sure it's a win for an extended period of time. Yeah, absolutely. And that's where, again, you want it to be partnerships. You don't want it to be client vendor and you don't want it to be like, hey, I'm just going to like tighten the screws as much as possible and get everything I can in the short term.

Like that doesn't establish that long term partnership, longevity and all of that together. It's just going to be extremely important for building a business, right, at scale. Because the last thing you want to do is have a partnership, allows you get to market. And all of a sudden, that partnership falls apart. And you're sitting there not able to deliver on the clients that you're hopefully implementing and supporting and everything else. Then you've got to go scramble to fix it instead of the next version of your product that's going to allow. you to go sell more clients. And so just had to be thoughtful in that whole journey. Yeah, no doubt. The other thing that you started out with, which is, I'm paraphrasing, right,

but this idea of leaning into your strengths, right? What is the secret, I think the word you use with like secret sauce. Like, what is our, what is my secret sauce? What is our team's, a wheelhouse or superpower, right? And really leaning into that versus once you've established that, finding external partners, consultants, what have you, right? That can fill in the gaps. That is, that's such a helpful framework. And in fact, I just, I recently had Connor Colitaine on the program. We run's Purrette Medical. We were talking about something very similar because one of the things that they realized with their extensive engineering background internally that they wanted to really leverage that as an example instead of just coming up with a

design that they could hand off to a CDMO they wanted to be able to build out like that core competency internally to scale up manufacturing before they would maybe hand it off to a different partner at a later stage and that kind of that ladders up to what they're really good at right they're very talented engineers and so they really leaned into that expertise and wanted to create a again, a core competency around that. It sounds like you have a similar approach with respect to how you've run businesses in the past, but especially reimagine in this case. Yeah, exactly. And when you sit down and you think about that using partnerships as you grow, at some point you say, hey, early stages, I don't want to invest in that. But maybe as we get

larger, more volume, more traction, next three rounds of funding, whatever it might be, okay, maybe then we'll take that in-house. And that could be future M&A activity. It could be like no, actually we're going to build it ourselves, whatever it might be. But for speed to market, I think partnerships are so extremely important. And to the point you just said and your previous conversation, I think it's absolutely right. You just got to have the right. What are we focused on? What are we going to be great at? And what are we going to find the right organizations, the other organizations that can come in and help support us? Got it. Yeah, that's good stuff. Let's segue into to focus a little bit more on one of your products,

which is, I think most recently you launched the whole person's symptom support offering at Reimagined. And this kind of just even taking a step back, this concept of really extending care virtually, especially with the focus at home, that's a bit different. And I'm sure as you begin to, you begin to look for product market fit, establish some early traction. You probably have a fair number of people that are leaning in and really the approach, but also some people that are like, this is friction here, right? It's because it's a different, it's a different sort of model, if you will.

So when you think about trying to establish early traction with a novel offering, right, something that's different, solves a real need, but it is different from the current approach. Are there a couple pieces of advice that you'd maybe recommend to other CEOs that are working on a similar type of challenge? Yeah. I think one of the things is finding those early adopters, right? Find those early partners. In this case, I use partners as clients.

Finding those early adopters, ones that want to be innovative, are innovative and are willing to work with you on it, right? There's going to be plenty of your future client base that is going to need a lot of data before they say yes, right? Before they sign on, start paying you for whatever you're delivering what product, program, et cetera. But there are early adopters in every industry. So how can you find those work with them while you're collectively establishing what that win is and that being able to prove those outcomes? And we have that in a handful of our early clients. And that's been really amazing. Like we're collectively, we're learning together. And I think that's the most important part at early

stages when you're, like you said, coming up with these novel ideas, these novel solutions, something that hasn't been done before. Yeah, we do have. to prove it to some extent. And you can sit there and look great on paper. When the rubber hits the road, you're going to have to be able to prove it. So you've got to find the right client partners to work with as you establish the traction and whether it be through a clinical trial, whether it be through a study, whether it be superficial on like that end or just more of hey, you know, we're willing to pay you a little bit of money and, you know, we think you've got a really great idea and just I'm an innovative kind of person. You know, anything in that

spectrum is going to help you get off the ground. But I think it's important to have that right They say, okay, let's learn together. And I think that's just, that's a super important part, not only from like you with your early clients and early partners, but also an internal mindset too. And we haven't really talked about the right person for the right role at the right time. We mentioned a little bit earlier startups on our for everyone. You know, you have to have that right internal mindset too, that learning mindset. And so I think that has got to be extremely pervasive across your internal team as well

of these early client partners. Yeah, that's so true. like the best sort of entrepreneurs, whether they're like running a company or just involved in a lot of startups. For my experience, I've always been those that have leaned into that curiosity, right? That they just, they want to keep learning. They want to keep taking on more. They may not have deep experience in a certain topic, but they're not afraid to like really dig in and not just dig it in a sense of, oh, I just want to learn. It's I want to learn and own this to help push what we're doing, our mission forward. You know what I mean? So there's like a certain ownership

about it as well that I've seen as a trend among some of the, the more entrepreneurial folks in my network. But you mentioned something also interesting when it comes to just innovators slash early adopters in general, like that that segment of an audience that's willing to maybe adopt a more novel offering like what you're building at Reimagined. But it's a good point because sometimes it's easy to get maybe lost in, oh, I've got this big potential customer that's going to be willing to pay me a fair amount of money and they've got a big high profile names so the optics look good and just getting a deal done. Not to say that that's a bad thing, because it could actually work out quite well. But if they're not, to your point, if they're not

willing to collaborate together and work together to help iterate on the platform, provide feedback, be vocal in maybe how it's worked out for them. That may not be their best kind of early partner, right? Whereas someone that's not only willing that maybe pay you, but also willing to truly help you push this thing forward to their just fundamental believers in what kind of what you're doing, that's the ideal, right, early adopter, innovator. 100%. There are some deals that as entrepreneurs, as startups, we end up in that we probably should have said no. And that, and that's, it's okay. You got to try and identify those up front. And I think as I've gone through my career, I've really appreciated that more and really trying to say, hey, you know what? Yes, we could make

money on that deal, but that's actually not going to be a good one for us in the next 12 months. So maybe it's really hard to do. And I guess a whole bunch of caveats and everyone's situation's different. But sometimes it's okay to say no to a deal and it'll actually be better for you in the long run, even though it might be short term painful in reducing some revenue. Yeah, totally. And this is, again, and somewhat, and there's a fair amount of like ambiguity here, right? Because again, to your point, everyone's situation is going to be different. But that's usually, I can usually tell, right, I'm sure you can as well, when someone's patient enough to say no to a deal early on that may drive revenue. And again, this is not always going to be the case. But you're going to be sacrificing a near-term win for long-term potential challenges and problems. That's always the sign of someone who has the scars to prove it or a wise entrepreneur, they've been there and done that and realized that. Yeah. And Some scenarios, it's okay to say no and being comfortable enough to say no to some of those, some of those early partnerships that maybe could work out, but have some signals that they may not, in fact, work out over the long term.

I think even on top of that is sometimes we bring on those early clients, those early partners, and we learn that throughout. Maybe we don't realize it or maybe we do need the revenue. We just have to get it on the books. But then as you have that opportunity, as you learn that partnership, as you figure out what that's like, it's okay. You don't have to automatically renew, right, at the end of the term. and it's okay to move on.

I know that it's always great to have 100% client retention, but I think there are some companies where it's okay if it's not 100%. If you've lost a couple clients and therefore the right reasons, that's okay too. That's so crucial, right, the right reasons. Because at the end of the day, if the why is, look, they're unhappy with the product, the service, et cetera, that's entirely different than the why is, look, that the fit wasn't good for where our company's at. And there's strong rationale as to why we decided it wasn't the greatest partnership moving forward, whatever.

Yeah, that rationale, that why is like super, super important. But Dan, let's talk a little bit about this question of who's going to pay for, which is, holds true, I think, in every startup, right, but especially in healthcare because there are so many different stakeholders, whether it's a physician, it's a physician preference sort of device. And they're largely influential on how that's adopted inside a hospital, whether it's the hospital or a health system in general that's paying for it. Maybe it's the employer that's willing to pay for this. offering a product. Let's talk about that a little bit. Like in Reimagines case, who is,

how would you navigate that question of who ultimately is going to write the check for this particular, you know, product or offering? That is extremely important of any business, especially right out of the gate, is really understanding flow of funds. How am I going to make money on this? And you could have the best idea in the world, but if you can't figure out a way to make money, you're never going to be able to see it through. And at Reimagining Care, we actually, right now, we're working directly with providers. And they are paying for our services, we're able to support a tier of patients for a set amount of money. And we work with them very closely so they understand the ROI they're getting back. So even though they're paying,

we know health systems, most of them aren't flush with cash. They don't have a bunch of money just laying around waiting to pay for programs like this. What we're able to do is prove to them that right out of the gate first year, they're able to have an ROI, even though they're paying for our services. But we walk them through the workforce optimization and the increased volume and if they're in any risk-based arrangements, how we're able to be. we're able to help support them so they can deliver even better on those. But I think taking a step back even more, that last point about risk-based arrangements, healthcare is still in this very slow shift from fee-for-service to fee-for-value.

We've been talking about it for decades and we're getting there in certain areas. But really, as we do see more and more of these risk-based arrangements, value-based care, being understanding of like, how does the flow of funds still work within that, right? And collectively, at reimagining care, So what we're going to be able to do is we're going to be able to work with our client partners. And as we gain more and more traction in certain geographies, we're going to then be able to collectively bring a program to the payers and say, hey, here, let's talk about this.

Let's put together all three of these organizations and let's have a whole new risk-based arrangement and handle all the funds in that way. And so that's going to be extremely important in the next evolution of Reimagined Care. And as we continue to work with the providers right now and show these positive outcomes and how can we take that collectively to the payers. So yeah that that framework of flow of funds I don't know if I've ever heard of it phrase that way but it's like it it really does it does a great job of kind of summarizing this core issue at hand right again whether it you could be working on a medical device you could be working on digital health solution you could be working on regardless of anything that you're working on understanding to your point damn that that flow that flow of that flow of that flow that flow at the first stage right who it's who ultimately is going to write the check right who ultimately is going to influence that decision to write the check understanding it understanding that flow or that framework at the earliest stages is so important, right? Because if there's an inherent friction in that flow of funds,

you want to be able to address or start thinking about that friction as early as possible, even when you're first designing, like, you're offering, right? Whether it's a physical product or a digital product, etc. Hey, there, it's Scott. And thanks for listening in so far. The rest of this conversation is only available via our private podcast for MedSider Premium members. If you're not a premium member yet, you should definitely consider signing up.

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