Medsider: Learn from Medtech and Healthtech Founders and CEOs - They Sold Their Company to Boston Scientific and Then Reacquired the Technology Years Later – The Unique Story of NuCryo Vascular

Episode Date: February 26, 2016

Because of diminishing margins, a lot of major medical device companies continue to add products to their sales bag in hopes of meeting top-line revenue goals. But selling the entire bag is challenging. When the bag gets too big, a typical sales force will usually focus only on products that generate the most revenue. So what...[read more]Related StoriesWhy Intersect ENT is an Example of Hope for the Medtech IndustryAre Medical Device Models the Key to Building a Lean Medtech Startup?Substantial and Sustainable – 2 Words That Medtech Companies Should Get Used To 

Welcome to Medsider, where you can learn from experienced medical device and medtech experts through uncut and unedited interviews. Now, here's your host, Scott Nelson. Hello, everyone, it's Scott Nelson, and welcome to another edition of MedSider, the place where I interview MedTech and medical device, thought leaders, and stakeholders in an effort to learn more about the business, about their careers, about their experiences. so everyone can benefit. So on today's program, we've got Kevin Beiden. He's the general manager and vice president of New Cryo Vascular, a subsidiary of Gemini interventional technologies. Prior to his role at New Cryo in Gemini,

Kevin has had sales and marketing leadership positions for companies like Spectronetics, Boston Scientific, and Pfizer. Kevin received his MBA in finance from Central Michigan University and ABS in Chemical Engineering from Michigan State. he's a Michigan guy. So without further ado, welcome for the program, Kevin. Really appreciate you coming on. Thank you. My pleasure. Happy to be here.

Well, cool. Let's start with what you're doing at New Cryo because it's certainly an interesting story. And congrats, by the way, on your recent 510K clearance. I want to discuss that more because it seems like you guys did incredible job with that, you know, turning around that clearance in short fashion. So I definitely want to spend time on that. But, you know, like I just, just said the the cryocathor device that that you're commercializing has really a kind of a story of

history with the likes of dr james joy the start the initial startup under under cryovascular systems you know and then the history with boston scientific etc so maybe maybe just uh if you can provide a high level overview of the history and then we'll maybe dig into into the details uh along the way. Yeah, absolutely. My pleasure. I do think it's a great story, and I think it's a pretty unique opportunity because of the history of cryoplasti in the previous proven customer base that we've had.

But back in the day, Boston Scientific, as I believe you know, acquired the polar calf line from a private system, which was a startup formed and created by Dr. Joy. During that time period, at its heyday, there was over $40 million in revenue, over $350 counts in most likely 900 to over 1,000 physicians that had been trained on the product. But as the medical device industry changes, in 2012, Boston Scientific basically went through a reorg and it was their decision, I believe, at the time, to eliminate some products that they perceived to be costly to make that weren't in their main geographic area and also had a small revenue stream compared to the larger coronary and Sierra product lines that they offered.

So at that time, they decided to stop manufacturing, but they allowed their inventory they had on hand to continue to be sold, although it was deemphasized from their sales force perspective. So at that point, in 2014, cryoplasty pollicast still had about $5.3 million in revenue and over 100 in accounts using it. But the sales were dwindling as the inventory dwindle. Dr. Joy and a few of the early investors in cryoplasti decided to create a company called Geminar and New Cryo to buy back the rights from Boston Scientific with the intent to do some engineering modifications and bring it back to market and that's where we are in present day. In the meantime, as you're aware and as you mentioned, we did have an exclusive distribution deal last year with Vassure Solutions. that was terminated 1231 of 2015, and that's where we are today with the direct sales force model for Gemini and Nukryo.

Got it. Yeah, certainly an interesting story. And I mean, just to kind of further elaborate a little bit, I want to set the stage, I guess, for those that are listening, this was a really successful product. I mean, you mentioned that the device reached peak sales of over $40 million. And then again, from my perspective, because I think it's a little bit unique because I, you know, when I was, you know, in the field selling peripheral vascular devices, I competed against this, this particular product. In fact, one of my one of my good buddies was a, was a rep for Boston Scientific at the time. And it was a really successful device. And then almost kind of disappeared, so to speak, so to speak. There wasn't a major recall. At least to my knowledge, there wasn't a major recall. There wasn't really any, any data that came out that suggested it didn't work. it just sort of, like I said, kind of disappeared. And so, you know, to your point, is that, what's your take on the reason for Boston Scientific sort of de-emphasizing it? Because you wonder how oftentimes this really happens with large strategics like Boston Scientific or a Medtronic or a striker.

Yeah, I think that's a great question. And, you know, obviously I'm not going to speak on behalf of Boston Scientific. But I think back in the 2012 time frame when the decisions were being made, you know, it was the guidance acquisition, with Boston, and there was a lot of change taking place in the industry. And so I believe they just made a decision that it was a smaller product line within a peripheral space, and they decided to divest and stop manufacturing this product. But there was no recall. In fact, in 2011 at TCT, there was very positive data to support cryoplasty.

And then it was published in 2012. It was called the Pover Study. And it talked about it was a randomized perspective, of multi-centered study comparing cryoplasti versus PTA in the post-dilation of night and all stents in the diabetic patient population. So it's very, very positive data that a lot of physicians aren't familiar with and a lot of physicians, as you mentioned, were also disappointed that the product went away. And so when we started reviving cryoplasts of the last year, physicians were surprised,

excited, but also very happy that they'd have the opportunity to put polar calf or cryoplasties back in their treatment algorithm for peripheral vascular disease. Yeah, very cool. Very interesting. And when I was, you know, during my time at Cavidian and Medtronic, there was a sort of a similar situation with one of our thrombectomy devices where it was almost, it was too expensive to, well, it was relatively expensive to manufacture, and sales were, you know, were relatively low in comparison to other product franchises. And so the decision was made to almost stop, not discontinuate,

per se, but really stopped selling it. And I know the reaction amongst physicians wasn't very, they weren't very enthused about that decision. So I think you just wonder how often this really takes place, you know, with other companies, but certainly a great opportunity for what you guys are doing with New Cryo. Well, I agree 100%. I think that was a great. great example. And I think what it comes down to is larger companies have such a breadth of product line or a large sales bag that sometimes the smaller products or the smaller revenue generating products are dismissed or often, you know, they can be discontinued. And I believe that's what happened with cryoplasties. But for our company, which is, you know, Gemini

New Cryo, it's a great opportunity because we've, you know, in a relatively short period of time, re-engineered the product twice from an inflation perspective, and we've eliminated a ton of costs. And I think we have a very efficient operation now just by really diving into with the serious engineering team and making some changes that have lowered the cost. Yeah. It's amazing how much can it get done when you put together a solid team and that's willing to move fast and iterate fast. It's pretty cool. I want to talk to you more about that here in a second. So to kind of to finish up on this story, you mentioned that. I think maybe was it back in 2014, Dr. Joy had interest in, or at that point, he sort of reacquired the IP or the assets from Boston Scientific.

Is there, do you know the rationale there? Was that based on the fact that he sort of, he was involved initially with this product with cryovascular? Or what was the, is there a story there that would be interesting to learn about? I think the story is, he was a founder. of cryopasty back in 1999, I believe it was initially incorporated. But he's always believed in the technology as well as a lot of physicians. And so when the opportunity to buy back the assets came to him, he absolutely jumped on it. And the team that we have today are individuals from cryoplasties

that originally in from Boston Scientific. So the team that was formed were people that had experience with cryoplasties. And they, as Dr. Joy, were excited to work on. it, make engineering changes, and bring it back to market because I believe it is a proven technology with demonstrated historical sales as well as data. And now with the COBRA data in 2012, it's a great opportunity to launch the product with relatively new data. And there's not a lot of randomized perspective clinical studies out there in the purple

space like the Prober study. So it was an opportunity to buy back the assets, re-engineer it, make it more cost-effective in the market so we can keep head to head with other technologies as well as having a nice data set to go along with it. So I think what he realized, and I think we all appreciate now, it was a great situation to buy it a distressed technology, if you will, because it was off the market and bring it back to market. Got it. Yeah. I mean, when you put all those pieces together, it really does, it really does make for not only an interesting opportunity, but it seems like a really,

a really good one on a lot of different fronts. So I want to get into how you guys were able to move so fast from an R&D perspective. But just lastly, I know you worked on a, you had a distribution agreement in place with vascular solutions and now you're going direct. But I don't want to necessarily ask you too much about why that was discontinued with vascular solutions. I really want to get to, you know, the decision to go direct versus a distributor and what we can learn from that because, you know, there's probably pros and cons with, you know, with both avenues. And so maybe take us through, you know, the rationale to go direct versus, you know, continuing in sort of a distribution fashion. Yeah, absolutely. Well, first of all, Vash Solutions is a great company with a proven track record.

I mean, they have an impressive product portfolio in a specific sales model. which works very well for them. However, it was a mutual decision for us to part ways, but it was a decision that New Cryo is very excited about right now because it gives us the opportunity to go direct and be in complete control of our future from a sales perspective and from an engineering perspective and all the above as it's associated with Policast and Cryoplasti.

So the decision to go to direct, it's basically hinders once again upon the history because there are so many accounts out there and as I mentioned, over 350, and it's got a proven mechanism of action that's differentiated. We believe that going direct will allow us to engage the physicians and kind of reconnect them. So it's a different sales model where we're not trying to sell people on the data or sell people on the device. What we're really trying to do is re-engage them, let them know the probate are out there, let them know that we're back, and let them know that they have an opportunity to add cryoplasties back to the treatment algorithm.

And because we're such a small company, I mean, at this time we have five employees, we're adding, and I am hiring at this time. But we're super efficient and we're super lean. And one of the things we emphasize is our cost control and our cost structure. But by being so lean and efficient, you know, we can capitalize with a drug sales force in a market that's ready and has been waiting for cryoplasty to come back. Got it. That makes a lot of sense. And when you, to hear you explain it, it helps a lot as well because it would be maybe an entirely different story if you had to go, if you had approached this more from a market development standpoint where you had to really educate physicians not only on the product, but also maybe on the disease state or maybe even the patient pathway. We're in this scenario, the device is proven.

A lot of physicians are fond of it or were fond of it when it was on the market. So it allows for, you know, a lot of efficiency from a sales perspective or a commercialization perspective. So that's cool. Exactly. Very good. So on that same topic of being lean and being able to iterate quickly at a lower cost, you, let's see here, the R&D work, I think, you mentioned that Dr. Joy acquired the assets from Boston Scientific in maybe the 2013 or 2014, I think, is when he did that. But yet, you just got your 510K clearance at the end of 2015, right?

Yes. We actually had the 510K clearance in 2015, end of 2015. I mean, so that's super fast to be able to make the R&D changes and then also get regulatory clearance in maybe a year or a little over that. I mean, it's unheard of within large companies for sure. So are there some key take? ways that we can learn from how you approach that and how you were able to move so quickly? Yeah, I think there's a couple things.

And I think it's a real testament to the engineering team and the team that was put together because the rights were acquired in, I believe, August of 2014. And in a relatively short period of time, we had to find a facility, set up a clean room, set up a manufacturing line that received back from Boston Scientific and start production because new crop vascular went to market with the distribution model in early 2015. So all that had been completed. And in that period of time, the engineering team actually already did engineering modification of the inflation unit by removing the external battery and putting the battery internal.

So that was one iteration they already completed. But the 510K submission only took 40 days for approval. So I think the real testament to that is being a lean team, you know, we could get together. The engineering team could do their work. They could bring it to us. We can analyze it, give them feedback, Dr. Joy to provide his input from the customer, and it would go back and do it again. So it was a total team effort of engineering, modification, adapting, voice of the customer,

going back to the drawing board, and bring it all together. So it's not a lot of bureaucracy. and total team play allowed us to really do something, you know, relatively quickly in today's world. Got it. Yeah. I mean, that's a, it's really amazing when you think about, you know, those two feats, the engineering changes as well as the, as well as the regulatory submission. And on that note regarding the regulatory submission, taking only 40 days, does that speak to how it was initially submitted or the relationship with, you know, with an. particular FDA reviewer.

Do you have any details there? What I think it was is basically came down to, you know, the history of prior policy once again and the modifications we made. They were modifications to the inflation unit that allowed it to be more effective, more cost effective. And they were important changes to us. But where the FDA would allow, you know, analyzed it, took a look at it and said, yes, something we can do.

They asked a few questions and we responded relatively quickly. So the turnaround time from their response to ours was all something we could do really fast because the team we had set up. And then we did have, you know, assistants writing it so that it was written in the best manner. But overall, how we're set up with what we do inside, we try to be very efficient in all our activities. Got it. And I've got a friend that's a regulatory consultant, and she sort of always scossed this notion that the blame is cast so often on the FDA.

And maybe that's, you know, right in some scenarios. But she has mentioned several times to me that, you know, a good, if the submission is tight and well done, that will save a ton of back and forth, you know, from the, on the device company side to the, you know, from both sides, the device company side as well as the, the FDA side. So, I mean, very cool to kind of see how you guys did that. and to show that it can be done. You know, the regulatory approvals can happen fast if done well.

So congratulations again on that. And before we kind of transition to your career experiences, Kevin, let's just lastly talk about, you know, the changes that you've made to the polar calf device and why a physician that's interested, that used it maybe, you know, back in 2007 or 2008, why they'd maybe be interested in using it now with the engineering changes that you've made? Definitely. I appreciate asking that question. I think the basis for cryoplasty is it's mechanism of action in apoptosis or the biological effect that it provides. There's not another balloon in the peripheral space that treats with the negative 10 degrees Celsius cooling impact of apoptosis that the cryobloin or polocap does.

So I think that's critical in the baseline for why the physicians are excited that it's back and why we're excited to bring it back to market. But with today's talk about the economy and the importance of price in today's market, the next generation unit that we just got 510K approval on, it's a non-seral, reusable device, allowed to 100 inflation. So prior to that, every time an inflation unit was used, it was per case. It was sterile and it had to be discarded after that case. So there was a cost associated with that for us to manufacture as well as for the hospital of a physician.

And so by bringing out this next generation unit, it significantly lowers the cost per procedure for polar cap. So now we can go talk to physicians, hospitals, office-based labs, office administrators, and sit down and we have an economic story that will compete in today's market along with the proven data, the COBRA study, the customer base, everything that allowed us with the notion to bring it back to market. So it was absolutely critical for us to get the 510K approval to compete in today's market. Got that's interesting. So the balloon itself is obviously disposable, but the inflation device that allows you to infuse the,

and I'm not entirely sure that the science of cryoplasti, but the inflation device that you infuse the formula, guess, for lack of a better description, that itself is reusable now. Yeah, absolutely. So prior to it, to conduct a polar catheter, crime-question procedure, you had to have a disposable sterile inflation device. You had to have the nitrous oxide cartridges, which were sterile. And you have the polar catheter that is sterile that actually goes inside the body to treat the lesion or the stenosis.

So each one of those had a cough associated with it. You have those up and you have the total cost for procedure for cryoplasty, which worked great in the mid-2000 when cost wasn't as important as it is today with all the additional competition out in the market now. But with the next generation unit, you're still going to have, which we're going to bring the market here in the very near future, you're going to have a disposable catheter that is the same as before, but now you're going to have a non-sterile metastoxide cartridge,

which is still one inflation per cartridge, but the main takeaway is the inflation device is going to be significantly less per case because it has a cost associated with it, but you amortize that over 100 cases or 100 inflation, and the cost per case is significantly lower than it was before, and it directly allows us to compete with other specialty balloons on the market. And then you combine our cost for the similar cost, our competition,

but you add in the mechanism of action how we treat and the benefits of cryo and treating the entire clinical leg along with the data. I think it makes it very compelling. Got it. Very cool. Thanks for the explanation. And I hope hopefully that gives everyone a good overview of kind of the changes you made and why it makes sense in today's market. Because as you mentioned, price, you talk to any downstream marketer or any salesperson in the field. They'll tell you the same story.

I mean, price is definitely an issue. in today's healthcare environment. Physicians have less, I always like to say physicians have less arrow. They still are decision makers when it comes to purchasing devices in the hospital setting. I hope you do agree with this. They just have less arrows in their quiver, you know, their only fight for so much, for so many devices.

And you know, when your costs are out of line, it's a tough, tough play. But, exactly. And we heard that last year. You know, we had some trial loyalists that were using file last year. But they were also talking about, look, Right now, with the previous cost structure, it'll be hard for me to get it in right now. I definitely want to get it in the hospital and put it on a shelf so I can use it for cases.

But, you know, cost will be an issue. And when I started talking about the next generation unit that we got 510K, it changed the discussion because the data, the mechanism of action, the ease of use, and the safety comes profile of cryoplasties. Now you're tying in the economic model that we have, and you can have a discussion. with the CFO, CEO, Cath Lab Director, OR manager, physician, whoever it may be. And there's a compelling story that ties it all in, which should allow it to be used in various settings to treat the patient. Very cool.

I want to, after we talk a little bit more about your career leading up to this point, I want to circle back around and ask you what's next for New Crow and Jim and I. But before we go to your career, I just want to mention a short sponsorship message interview. sponsored by touch surgery. Now, in full disclosure, I'm an employee of touch surgery. But for those that are interested in, or wants to know a little bit more about touch surgery, I encourage you to go to our website, touchsurgery.com.

You can download our free app through the app store or the Google Play Store. And in essence, we allow, we produce very interactive mobile procedural simulations to train reps and or physicians at scale. And so what I mean by that is traditional simulations that are hardware-based require someone to be in-person. It's an in-person sort of event to use or practice on a simulator.

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So let's now transition to your career, Kevin, leading up, because you joined Jim and I back in early 2015, correct? Yes. But your prior experiences I kind of mentioned in the intro were with, it looks like, you know, based on the research that I did, a sales capacity with the likes of Boston Scientific. And you sort of came up the ranks, I guess, in, you know, from a, on the sales side with Boston Scientific and Spectronetics.

So, so going back to your most recent move from Spectronetics to, you know, to, to Gemini and New Cryo, kind of explain, explain that and, and why you made that particular career transition. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. First of all, Spectranes is a great company. enjoyed my time there. But when the opportunity with Gemini came to my attention and I was approached with it, it was an opportunity I couldn't turn down because it was a small company. It was a startup, but it was a startup built with great people, people that I admire and people that I knew

I really enjoyed working with. But it was also based on a technology that I used to sell some scientific back in 2006, and I really believe there's a market out there for it. And with the overstudy and the changes I knew that were forthcoming, it seemed like a great opportunity to really pursue it and take a chance at the startup with a great team. So that was why. It was almost too good to turn down. And that's why I left Spectronetics, which is a great company, to go to a small one that I believe we can make great in its own right. Got it. And then so I'm sure, you know, most people would analyze that move and say really exciting opportunity, but you're taking a great.

a big risk. So how did you, how did you justify, you know, taking the, you know, balancing the pros and cons of kind of, you know, making that move going from, you know, spectroetics to new cry on Gemini? Yeah, that's a great question. Something my wife and I talked about, I talked with my friends and one of my mentors. And I think you analyze every opportunity or you should analyze every opportunity, either if it's in your current company and move into a new position or whatever may have or an outside opportunity. So I, I did the analysis, I talked with Dr. Joy and the team of New Pryo and Gemini. And once again, it came down to that situation where I'm pretty passionate about what we're

offering right now because of the proven track record of Pryo, me being able to sell it before the next generation unit that I knew we were going to get approval on. You tie all those things together. And I honestly don't think there's another opportunity in the medical device space today that we have right now at New Cryo Gemini. it all comes down to once again the proven track record, the data, the next generation unit. You tie all that together with a super small, super lean team, and we don't have to be everywhere in the market, but we just have to be used and be part of the algorithm for PAD, and we will

be successful. And then you tie into the future of what Gemino wants to do, and it was too good of an opportunity from a learning perspective. I've been working with really good people, and like Dr. Joy, who I admire, and I respect, and I've worked previously. I just had to say yes and I'm super happy that I did. Yeah, very, very cool to kind of understand how you sort of analyze that move because I think a lot of people would relate to that and it sounds like there's just a lot of pieces that that you were able to sort of check the box, you know, in sort of, you know,

as you kind of analyze that, you know, that potential transition. So it's good practice for all of us to sort of learn from for sure. And as I mentioned before, I mentioned that you came up through the, you know, sort of the sales ranks and that you know, have various sales leadership positions at, you know, Boston Scientific, Petronetics, etc. But you're, you're a chemical engineering. I mean, your undergrad's in chemical engineering. You've got an MBA in finance. So I'm curious as to kind of why you stayed on the sales side through your career versus, you know, other positions that you probably could have, could have taken, you know, within the medical device space that were maybe closer. to your background, I guess, you know, whether it was a marketing position or whether it was,

you know, something else. I'm curious, like, how did you, why sales and then how do you think that's helped you now, you know, with where you're at with New Cryle? Yeah, that's a great question. And I think that, you know, graduate with a chemical engineering degree and working, you know, for doubt learning in the engineering space for three plus years and then transitioning over to marketing, I think that's given me a broad foundation that applies to the medical device space because if you think about the medical device space in the human body it's all basically fluid flow heat transfer things along those lines so there's a technical component that I believe I bring to the sales model that's helped me in my career

but more importantly one thing that I truly love and enjoy is building teams and the human element and so with sales allows me to engage physicians have difficult conversations about a technology that might be misunderstood or they might not want to use they might think that there's not a need for it in their treatment algorithm. And so sales is a challenge, but also allows you to engage people to, you know, build relationships with them and provide them a product that I believe will service them in their patients. So that's why I've always, you know, enjoyed sales, and that's why I love my position I'm in

right now. Got it. And as you think back, you know, to your sales experiences versus kind of what you're doing now in your role, you know, as GM of, you know, as GM of. of new cryo. Are there other things that you wish you had more experience in? And then really that I guess what I'm getting at here is, there's gonna be people that listen to this interview

or our conversation that have opportunities to make, to sort of to zig and zag throughout the career. You don't go from sales to marketing or marketing to medical education or professional education, et cetera. Are there, do you wish you would have maybe zigged or zagged a little bit more or are you kind of, what are your thoughts in general about that? Yeah, no, I think,

and I think first of all, you always have to have some good mentors that you trust. And for me, I'm unfortunate. My wife is also in the medical device base, and so she's a great sounding board. But I think at the end of the day, you always have to have a story. I get phone calls from a lot of people now

that ask, you know, about making their career move or doing a career change or whatever it be, and they always ask about their resume. And a resume is a critical component, and that's what people look at. but I think you always have to have a story to tell. And so if you look at mine, I've been very fortunate.

You know, my first medical device job was with Boston Scientific being a peripheral rep. It happened to be with cryoplasties, and that connects me with Dr. Joey, and I believe one of the reasons why I'm here today. But then I was allowed to, you know, to launch promis on the corner side where I did that for a year, and I went to spectrenetics. So as long as you make a change that makes sense to you and there's a story behind it, I believe you need to continue down that path and not be afraid to take risks or to make a change and just believe in that path and stay true to it. Because change is inevitable, but you have to just manage through it and believe in the path that you're on.

Because you know it will change and it will always change and just have to be ready for those modifications, if you will. Got it. Very good. So when you think about a new cryo now, I know you sort of hinted at it, you know, just a few minutes ago. What's next? I mean, you're clearly excited about the opportunity ahead with the new polar catholic device. But can you tell us a little bit more about what's ahead in the new cryos story, the Gemini story? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one of the great things about Gemini and that was intriguing to me is obviously you talked about cryoplasts quite a bit. But Gemini is really a medical device startup that was created to develop, engineer, manufacture, and distribute either drugs. or through a distribution channel, novel or new medical devices that are differentiated

and different to treat PAD. So we already have prototypes in IP that we're working on, and what our goal, and Gemini's goal is to develop, work with entrepreneurs, other physicians have already contacted us about ideas they have because we're such a small shop and we're so efficient. you know, we can take an idea, think about it, build a prototype, get the voice of the customer, if you will, and then build a marketing plan around it. So that's the future. The future is to stay, stay small, have a direct sales force, grow a little bit here and there, but always be nimble enough to adapt to the technology we want to bring the market, the IP that we're working on,

and just continue this process of, you know, bringing out new technology year after year after year. Got it. And so is it safe to say that Gemini almost acts as a little bit like an incubator or an accelerator for specific to the peripheral market? It could. Absolutely. That's one way to look at it. You know, there's various ideas and thoughts behind an incubator. But right now, you know, we have a business plan that's lined up with a product we already want to bring to market in a few years. So the first and foremost is get cryoplasties. A lot of the ground, you know, get it back to where it was, get a nice revenue stream, and then build off of that with the products we already have that we're already engineering and we already have

prototypes on. Okay. Cool. And you obviously have a lot of experience in the peripheral vascular marketplace, and it's one that's pretty competitive, you know, pretty competitive. A lot of different players with, you know, quality sales forces and quality products. So is that, when you look at how competitive this particular market is, what are your, you know, what thoughts come to mind? Yeah, I mean, the purple space is highly competitive, and there's new competitors coming to the market almost every day, it seems like. But the one thing that I really appreciate, and when I talk to other sales reps and other

companies, is the focus that we're going to have in our bag. A lot of reps out there are a lot of larger companies. They have to add products because their margins are dropping, because there's so much competition. But for us, you know, we're focused. We have one product right now, and we have a direct sales team that's going to go after the, once again, the proven customer base that's already been out there. So I think it gives us a competitive advantage.

And hopefully that will be proven this year and the years to come. But I know a lot of reps, even highly respected reps, you know, are looking to carry a smaller bag. And they don't want to talk about 20, 15, you know, 30 products and go to different call points throughout the hospital. They would also like to be focused. So I think the business model that we're developing is intriguing, you know, and hopefully it will prove to be very.

successful. Yeah, and I it's it's interesting that you mentioned that I had a conversation fairly recently with a a VP of sales that we had this same same topic you know whether to go whether to stay really focused or combined sales forces and he made he made a comment that you know it's certainly more expensive to take a more focused approach but it's the it's really the only way to you know just to see a lot of to see the growth that you know I think you want just because the more spread out your sales force is in terms of, you know, call points or, you know, products, the less likelihood for ideal growth. So. Yeah. And I also think that's why we have such a unique opportunity because we are

different. And we have the mechanism of action, you know, that applies apoptosis and it's completely differentiated. That hopefully it'll allow us to go super lean like we are, but also grow the market that we have because of the physicians that have used in the past. So it's that one unique situation that we talked about before where I can't think of another opportunity where if you combine all the pieces and you put it in this basket that we have, it's pretty unique. And that's why I also think it's pretty exciting with hopefully what we're going to see in the future. Cool.

Very good. So I'm going to transition to these kind of these, kind of more of my favorite part of the parts of these interviews, which is kind of the last three more personal questions. But first and foremost, what's your favorite nonfiction business book, Kevin? Yeah, that's a great question. I guess just thinking off the top of my head, it's into thin air about the Mount Everest story. I think it was written in 1997 by John Crockauer. But it's a great story about survival.

It's a really engaging story about Monteveras and conquering it. Okay. That's interesting. We, you know, for our family night, just last night, we actually watched that, the movie, Everest. A really good movie. Have you seen it? I have. I think that's one of the great things about reading some of these books, these nonfiction books, is you read the book and then you watch the movie. Or you watch the movie, then you read the book, and you see similarities. But now it's a really intense film, and that's why I love the book, because it was an intense book to read.

Yeah. And you feel like you're kind of with those individuals as they go through their adventure. Very cool. Off to look into that because I honestly didn't even, I haven't read really much into this, into the story other than watch the movie. So I'll have to look into that into thin air.

That's cool. All right. So second question, is there a business leader, whether it's a CEO or anyone else for that matter, that you're sort of following right now or one that inspires you? Yeah, that's a really good question.

I think there's a lot of business leaders out there, especially right now with the presidential elections and all those things going on. There's so many leaders out there, and it's an ever-changing economy. But I think if I would answer that question with kind of a sports analogy, I guess, if you will. I'm a Michigan State grad. I'm a big Tom Izzo fan, and obviously it's basketball season. And I really respect what Tom Isle was done. I think business and leaders and sports coaches can be in parallel times.

And what he's done by building a program, and I think that's really critical in today's medical device world is you have to build a program, not just cover cases or get your equipment used in the case, but build a program so that you're part of a treatment algorithm. That's what really defines success. But I think Tom Isl has done that at Michigan State. I mean, he's a motivator, a mentor, a teacher, an absolute disciplinarian,

but all in all, he still has built a program that has a great culture where his players have fun. And I'm a big fan of working hard, but at the end of the day, if you're not having fun, you're not enjoying what you're doing, and I think you really have to look in the mirror and figure out, is this the right experience and right opportunity for me? Because it's never going to be easy, but you have to enjoy at the end of what you're doing. And I think that's what Tom iso as a leader has done at Michigan State. And he's built a nationwide powerhouse that was number one earlier this year. They've lost a few games recently, but absolutely someone I had respected in my air.

Yeah. It's your Michigan State bias coming through. Absolutely. A little bit. A little bit. No, I think a lot of people would agree with, even if you're not a Michigan State fan, would agree with your comments about what Tom is done there. My wife's a Wolverine, so every now and that I've got to, you know, defend my Spartans as much as I can. It's a true rivalry. That's great. It is. All right. Last question, when kind of thinking about your career.

you know, spanning back to even your days at Dow Corning. Is there something that you would tell your, you know, your 25 or your 30-year-old self looking back? Yeah, I guess I'd probably tell myself a lot. For the sake of this interview, I think what it comes down to is, and it's not easy. Trust me, I struggle with this as well. But don't be afraid to take risk. But more importantly, I think you need to surround yourself with good people that have your intentions, not their intentions, but your best intentions in mind.

And that's not easy, but I think that's critical because, and that's both in the inside of the industry as well as the outside of the industry, because you have to get perspective from both. Like when I decided to make the move to Gemini, I talked to my peers inside the industry as well as friends, family, and people that just know me. And said, what do you think? And I think you have to have a sounding board of people that have your back

and it will be a straight shooter. Honestly, you hurt sometimes, but I think it's important to hear it. you don't always have to listen to it, I guess, but I think it's important to have that perspective. Because when I look back and when I left Spectronetics, or when I left Boston Scientific to go to Spectenetics, I mean, I was a large company going to back then, Spectrenetics was, you know, a smaller company

that was still trying to figure out their footprint. But change is important and it helps you grow. So take risks, but make sure that you just take a look at the overall aspect of what that could be. Very good. Good advice. And sort of to end our conversation here, for people that want to learn more about Gemini interventional or New Cryo, where would you direct them to online?

Yeah, absolutely. I appreciate that. I direct them to New Cryovascular.com, the www. N-U-C-R-Y-O-B-A-S-D.com. Our information is there. You can contact me to the website. Our press releases and things will be up there. So I'm happy to talk to anyone, customers, other individuals in the market space, whatever we can do to help them better understand our story, what we're trying to do, and why we think we're relevant in today's market.

Got it. Very good. And I'll link to the website here in the show notes. But do check new cryovask out when you get a chance on their About page. You guys do a good job of kind of explaining the story, you know, from a chronological perspective, which is kind of neat. it's nice to see, especially when, especially for those of us that are more familiar with the cardiovascular space, for sure. So Kevin, I'll have you hold on the line here, but anything else to add before we call it good? No, I just really appreciate your time. Great questions, great dialogue, and it was great talking to you. The last thing I'll note, people can also look at www.polarcaf.com and cryoplasti.com if that's easier for them to remember. Okay. new crowd of Asprey might not jump out.

But now, I appreciate it. Excited about the future ahead for New Cryo of Asper in Gemini. And look forward to having another discussion that maybe next year or if not before about what we've done. And it's kind of the future of Gemini. It'd be fun to have a follow-up discussion for sure because you guys are doing some interesting things for sure. So like I said, I'll have you hold on here on the line. But again, everyone, thanks for your listening ears during our conversation.

Kevin, hopefully it's been useful. And until the next episode of Metzheimer, everyone, take care.