Medsider: Learn from Medtech and Healthtech Founders and CEOs - Why Commercial Discipline Starts Long Before Launch: Interview with RenovoRx CEO Shaun Bagai

Episode Date: February 17, 2026

In this episode of Medsider Radio, we sat down with Shaun Bagai, CEO of RenovoRx. The company is developing targeted oncology therapies and is currently commercializing RenovoCath, which is focused on pancreatic cancer. Before joining RenovoRx in 2014, Shaun spent over a decade in the cardiovascular space, including leading global market development at HeartFlow and helping establish the European renal denervation market at Ardian, which Medtronic acquired for approximately $1 billion. He began his career in clinical research and device sales at TransVascular and Medtronic. In this interview, Shaun discusses how testing markets with minimal infrastructure reveals what leads to commercial success, why clinical trial enrollment benefits from sales discipline, and what founders should understand about going public when traditional capital isn't available.Before we dive into the discussion, I wanted to mention a few things:First, if you’re into learning from medical device founders and CEOs, and want to know when new interviews are live, head over to Medsider.com and sign up for our free newsletter.And if you’re ready to level up your medtech game, you should check out Medsider Courses — 8-week masterclasses covering topics like fundraising, M&A and exit planning, design and development, clinical and regulatory strategy, and commercialization.These courses, featuring hard-earned lessons from elite medtech CEOs, can be purchased individually or come free with our All-Access Pass.If you'd rather read than listen, here's a link to the full interview with Shaun Bagai.

They don't really see what the market needs and spending a lot of time in 20 to 24 meeting with physician groups, physician societies, and seeing if there's a place what their ideas are and is there a market to be had, and then testing it. Testing it as cheaply as you can. And again, by us going out in the field and actually starting to commercialize without hiring the sales infrastructure before. And then learning what the sales processes, the timelines, the cycles, and what type of sales team you need in place. Is it more clinical? Is it more technical? Which specialties you view focusing on? And I feel like we've learned a lot in the last 18 months that really are forming the model. And what's amazing is we can get deep penetration in what we believe is a very focused market with less than three to five sales reps.

Welcome to Medsider, where you can learn from the brightest founders and CEOs in medical devices and health technology. Join tens of thousands of ambitious doers as we all. unpack the insights, tactics, and secrets behind the most successful life science startups in the world. Now, here's your host, Scott Nelson. Hey, everyone, in this episode of Medsider, I sat down with Sean Begai, CEO of Renovo RX, a company developing targeted oncology therapies and commercializing Renovo Cath, a novel FDA cleared local drug delivery device. Before joining Renovo RX in 2014, Sean spent over a decade in the cardiovascular space,

including leading global market development at Heartflow and helping establish the European renal denervation market at Ardian. He began his career in clinical research and medical device sales at transvascular and medtronic. Here are a few topics we explored in this conversation. First, how can you figure out what your commercial model needs before building a sales team? Second, how should sales incentives be designed to drive real adoption, not just revenue? And third, what actually drives enrollment success in early clinical trials? Before we dive into the full episode, I think you'll want to check out MedSider courses.

These new eight-week courses are designed to help you learn winning formulas from world-class CEOs. MedSider courses cover topics like fundraising, device design and development, clinical and regulatory strategy, commercialization, and M&A. Each course covers hard-earned lessons shared by the MedTech founders and CEOs who join our program. MedSider courses can be purchased individually or they're included at no additional cost with the Medsider All Access Pass. You can explore Medsider courses at Medsider.com forward slash courses. Again, that's medsider.com forward slash courses.

All right, without further ado, let's dive into the interview. All right, Sean, welcome back for a round two to Medsider Radio. Hey, Scott. Great to be back. It's been a while and I'm happy to share the updates. I know. People almost laugh at me or at least think I'm joking when I say I've been recording podcasts for like close to 15 years. And I'm like, this is, this is case in point, right?

Sean was on the show like almost a decade ago. And we're having him back for a second time to talk about kind of, you know, the where the company's been, right, over the past, over the past 10 years and kind of where you're headed. So anxious to dig in and learn more. But for those that aren't familiar with your background, aren't familiar with the company and maybe didn't listen to that first interview, give us a like a short, like one, two minute kind of pitch on your career kind of leading up to starting the company. Absolutely. I can see why they said that. I've got more gray hair than you, which is really 11 and a half years in this company. I think it's done.

So yeah, I've been in medical technology, a whole career. and had the lucky happenstance, have good mentors earlier on that guided me to or gotten today and help you bring companies like this up. So I got my started as an intern at a medical device startup company in Silicon Valley for one year, which was supposed to one-year stint and then off to med school.

And the CEO founder, not practicing physician, entrepreneur, very successful. Dr. Josh McHauer really pushed me to not go to med school once I got accepted. And after denying that, my career took off within that startup company running clinical research before being acquired by Medtronic. And he really instilled upon me. I could really do more as an entrepreneur and a business founder and owner at some point to reach patients than one could as a physician treating patients one

at a time. And so I followed that pathway. And with his guidance, he mentioned that you should really go learn sales if you want to run in companies to really understand what it takes to get a device in the hands of doctors to treat patients. And I took the opportunity of the Medtronic acquisition to fly around the country, train their positions and sales reps and the technology they bought, and then transitioned to a senior sales position and sell product for about five years in the stent side, launched a brand new disruptive product when they had their first drug-coded stent, which has now become a commodity over the last couple decades. And then left for another startup company to grow my career in a company called Ardian. We developed a new device technology

that really made an impact on medicine even beyond what transvascular my first company did. when we found a way to treat high blood pressure without the use of medications using a device very successfully, ended up running market development for them in Europe, training positions, transitioning them from clinical research into commercial, and then a successful acquisition to Ventronic again for about a billion dollars. And then went on to another startup company called the heart flow, another disruptive technology. This is in the diagnostic space to better diagnose coronary artery disease. And ended up being hired to, being hired to be. commercialized them probably 15 years prematurely. Since then, they've been very successful.

So I spent three years helping them with clinical research, helping with commercial efforts initially. A lot of market development work in Japan that led to the formation of heartflow Japan and got tapped in the shoulder to leave heartflow and join Renovol RX, where I am now. And it's great to see the heart flow technology, which I know works well, flourished with a $2.5 billion dollar IPO recently. So I feel like I've had the lucky half of the sense to be involved with very successful technologies, both financially, that have also really helped patients. And it's great to, after 11 and a half years at Renova RX, to see our technology, probably helping patients the most out of anything I've done in my career.

Yeah. And there's something to be said, right? Because some of those companies you just named off are pretty well known in our space, right? Starting out with Ardian, which I think most people listening or at least semi-familiar with the company, especially now that Medtronic is finally commercializing the technology. That has to be kind of wild, right? Like, what, 15 years later now since the acquisition or close to it anyway, yeah, to see that come full circle. And then Heartflow, I think that IPO really stood out. So that's cool. So certainly have a ton of experience and anxious to talk a little bit more about Renova, right? Because we're recording this in late, late 2025. You said you were tapped on the shoulder, take on the CEO role. Gosh, back in what was

it, 2014, 15 timeframe? 2014 yeah yeah yeah so a little bit over a decade now um so give us give us a sense right for kind of you know what the technology is because i mean you've had some pivots along the way you know and and for those listening we'll link to their website in the in the full write-up on medsider but if you're if you don't get to that that full article that full summary article renovo rx.com is a website so r-en-o-v-r-x dot com renovo r-rx dot com r-n-o-v-r-r-x dot com but yeah give us a sense for kind of what the what the technology is, core kind of, you know, problems that your clinical needs that you're trying to solve for. So this is a great technology where it wasn't developed for the purpose of forming a

business. It was invented by Dr. Rompton, Aga, out of El Camino Hospital, so in our backyard, where he saw a patient need and then found a solution and then really found a great application for it. He had as a cardiologist, a pancreatic cancer patient who had a bleeder and scrubbed in with his buddy who was a radiologist. And just to be there to support and found he was struggling to isolate blood flow around the pancreas. And this is not uncommon for pancreatic cancer patients. And he thought there's got to be a better way to isolate flow with a device to deliver therapies, in this case, clotting agents or coils. And he invented this double balloon mechanism that one could adjust and change the distance between a treatment zone in an organ like the

pancreas that doesn't have a dedicated blood supply. And quickly learned that one of the barriers to success in treating pancreatic cancer patients is that the chemotherapy doesn't reach there. So we end up blasting the whole body with chemo, and in a lot of cancers, the patients go through this, and they come out the other end living longer, and they lose their hair and lose their weight, and it's a miserable experience, and hopefully not the rest of their lives in some cases. And pancreatic cancer has been that way. And what we found is we can find a way to localized chemotherapy that's never been done before, where we actually get very high concentrations of chemo, 100 times the concentration locally,

then you would systemically without the same side effects. And that's resulted in now fast forward, you know, 10 to 11 years. We've treated many patients who have lived much longer. And the bulk of our patients don't have the same side effects and don't look like a chemo patients. So it looks like we're making a massive impact here. Yeah, when I remember when we, when you were on the show originally, we talked about how the device reminded me of, I think, the trellis device, right, which was originally

designed for venous applications, right? It kind of looks a little bit like that, or at least reminding me of it, right? But it's kind of same. I won't say same. but like similar kind of underlying sort of like idea, right, where you're trying to isolate the drug, you know, for, and in your case, you know, patients that are suffering from pancreatic cancer. Yeah, you know, it's funny. This, you know, from origin stories, I love joking with the founder of this. We've become very close friends, almost like brothers.

He's the chairman, chief medical officer. And we've kind of battled the private and public markets together to get through everything we can to get here. And I remember he first showed me the device when I was at a heart flow. And I sat down and said, that's dumb. It's a balloon. And then when I saw the applications, the potential was like, you know, balloons have been done before, but we saw the application. And then the patent portfolio we've developed since around this discovery of mechanism of action of going trans arterial or trans bascally going across the vessel wall, what we call trans arterial microperfusion. It's a whole therapy we invented or tamp.

It's really shown to be something different. And then when you look down the anatomy and physiology, it's making the impact because of that whole development of not just the device itself, but the procedure. Got it, got it. So that acronym TAMP, you know, which I'm looking at on the website often, you know, you'll see it kind of in a lot of your press releases. Do you envision potentially taking this, you know, beyond just, you know, the current kind of, you know, focus of pancreatic cancer then? Absolutely. In fact, it's interesting because we've been hyperfocused as a diligent company on pancreatic cancer. A lot of companies make the mistake of bowling the ocean and spending a lot of money doing that. I believe we're successful because we've been hyperfocused in this area. develop empirical, randomized data showing this has a benefit. And then with that, a lot of physicians have come to us said, this is fantastic. You're tackling a disease that no one can treat and it's working. Let's use this other places. We've already got inbound interest. We've recently commercialized the device in parallel with our phase three trial for that specific indication. So we'll start

to see physicians using this for other tumor types and other indications as well. Okay. Yeah, that's super super interesting. And just to kind of circle back around to like, the patient experience here. So I'm not overly familiar with kind of the pancreatic, you know, or the oncology world, period, let alone pancreatic cancer. Are most patients like standard of care if they didn't have access to this sort of device? Are they largely on chemo and like some sort of mix of chemo and radiation then? Yeah. Unfortunately, I just talked to a potential advisor years ago as a medical oncologist and she said, look, when you look back 50 years from now, we'll think about how barbaric were as a community where we just blast the entire body with poison. So this

standard of care for pancreatic cancer, unfortunately, is still just systemic chemotherapy, despite the fact that it only adds seven to eight to 10 or 12 weeks over previous therapies with much more toxicities. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. That's a good way to kind of actually frame it up. And so, so is that would the goal potentially be that if, say, you know, hopefully I'm not, but like say fast forward, I'm, you know, I'm in my, you know, 60s or 70s, I get diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, that this could maybe be the only treatment I would need potentially, right? I wouldn't even have to be, you know, exposed. And I don't want to put you on the spot and, like, get you in trouble.

But, like, is there a scenario where, like, this is the go-for path, right? This is very, very targeted, you know, kind of delivery of these chemo agents. I'd say today, no, and I'll tell you why. And in the future, yes. And that's really the amazing part of this being a platform technology, we can deliver almost anything through the catheter to almost anywhere in the body that's connected with the blood vessel. we've been focusing primarily on non-metastatic pancreatic cancer and locally advanced pancreatic cancer

with the idea we can get a high dose of chemo locally there is a notion and a lot of oncologists want to treat the whole body at some point because there can be micromatastases if we don't see so the beauty of where we are today both from a patient standpoint and also engaging the different positions is that there's no loser here we the medical oncologists still give upfront systemic chemo and not indefinitely and not because there's nothing else. They give a shorter course of upfront chemo that might treat micrometastases, and then we can hammer the tumor locally. Now, in the future, as better immunotherapies get invented and developed,

if we can turn these cold tumors hot by giving a drug locally where nothing else can reach because it didn't have this technology, then the answer is yes. If we can use immunotherapics, like you turn the immune system on to tackle those metastases, that there is a future possibility where this technology can really help patients without happening those systemic at all. That's cool. On that note, like I said before, we're recruiting this late 2025. You mentioned early commercialization. So give us a sense of kind of where the company's at, where Wernova's at right now

versus kind of where your focus will be in terms of life cycle kind of heading into, heading into 2006. So over the last year, we've had a lot of inbound interest from physicians saying, look, so far the data you've got looks very compelling, interesting. I don't have a solution for my cancer patients. And we'd love to buy your technology. As much as you're in a phase three drug device combination for specific indication to be reimbursed as a drug, your catheter's FDA clear. Can I just buy it and use it? And we didn't want to jeopardize enrollment in the trial, as you can imagine. And we didn't want to jeopardize patients coming off the control arm.

But we're wrapping up the study in enrollment in 2026. And reimbursement, Till wins over the last couple of years have made this favorable as a business opportunity where we could charge therapeutic level pricing for a device, which is becoming more and more of the case in the cancer space. So both from a business standpoint and a not jeopardizing the phase three trial standpoint, and the third piece of the position of demand, we decided to commercialize this year. And I think the big difference that we've done that I've learned from my past experiences, we didn't go hire a bunch of sales reps and raise a ton of money and dilute my investors. We really wanted to truly understand the market. And that was me out, living on a plane, meeting positions.

My head of strategy was really just two of us that have brought almost 900,000 of revenue in the first three quarters of the year. without a sales infrastructure to really understand the sales process. And now we've actually just recently put a sales infrastructure in place to go up the market next year. Okay. Super interesting. Yeah. So very cool. So actively commercializing, but it sounds like a very kind of very narrow, very specific focus,

really with the goal of understanding the market first before you kind of really get out too far over your skis and plan for a full commercial launch. Okay. Very good. That said again, for everyone listening, RenovoRX.com is a website. We'll link to it in the full write-up on Medsider, but again, R-E-N-O-V-O-R-X.com is the website. You can go learn a little bit more about the company and the technology TAMP

and really the platform technology that we'll get into here in a little bit more detail. So with that said, first question I've got for you, Sean, kind of transitioning into kind of lessons learned right over the past decade at Renavo, but also, you know, throughout your career. Let's talk about this early commercialization because I think that is unique, especially for, you know, device drug combos, because most of us in the device space, It's like you've got these certain milestones that you've got to hit that all ladder up to eventual clearance or, you know, or PMA.

And you can't really do a lot typically commercially, but you made that decision, right, to go ahead and sort of get your feet wet for lack of a better description. So what are, what are a few like key, key learnings about kind of like that decision to kind of, you know, go ahead and launch? And then what maybe other things have you kind of picked up on over the past, over the past year? I think the key is to the voice of the customer, talking to physicians, doing the market research is very important. I believe a lot of companies are engineering first and kind of science first in the sense that they don't really see what the market needs. And spending a lot of time in 2024 meeting with physician groups, physician societies, and seeing if there's a place, what their ideas are and is there a market to be had. And then testing it, testing it as cheaply as you can. And again, by us going out in the field and actually starting to commercialize without hiring the sales infrastructure before.

And then learning what the sales processes, the timelines, the cycles, and what type of sales team you need in place. Is it more clinical? Is it more technical? Which specialty should be focusing on? And I feel like we've learned a lot in the last 18 months that really are informing the model. And what's amazing is we can get deep penetration in what we believe is a very focused market with less than three to five sales reps. So it's not a big spend. And keeping the burn low.

We've always kept their burn low and always had multiple people. doing multiple things, flexing consultants. It's a very different animal that it used to be where you raise a ton of money, you keep spending, you burn, you raise a ton more money. We've been very frugal and careful along the way to make sure we spend that money in the right places. And it looks like it's paying off. Yeah. And that need, I don't think, is going away, right?

As the goalposts can kind of continue to shift around, you know, capital raising and being able to just capitalize a company, period, whether you're private or public, right? You basically need to keep doing more and accomplishing more with typically less. less dollars for sure. So you made an interesting point that when you think about commercialization as well, you know, the obvious one is like you learn more from your customers or how they're going to use it or how long is it going to take, you know, to get through a value analysis team or whatnot. But you mentioned even something is like as subtle as what's the archetype for my sales rep, right? Do they need to be like high, you know, high clinical kind of persona? Do they need to be a sales animal?

And so that's, I think that's like super interesting, right? And it sounds like you've been able to pick up on that over the past year, kind of with this early launch. Absolutely. I think the other key piece as you've been on commercialization is incentive plans are very complicated. And coming from sales, I've seen this amongst my colleagues, and it's very simple. You go where the money is as a salesperson. And so incentivizing the correct behaviors is very important. It's very easy to say, you know, commission X percent from dollar zero, you know, spiffs for selling more product. But what that ends up resulting is maybe selling to the wrong doctors, maybe trying to push the wrong patients.

We've seen a lot of stuff like that going to the medical, you know, farm industry over the decades. And really what's important and I believe that investors, the markets also will see and respond to is going deep, not wide, or doing both. The days of let's drop a bunch of product off that collects dust and show revenue ramp doesn't show true adoption and a true business. So it's great to be able to see what's going to drive that deeper adoption in each hospital. And again, incentivize the reps for the activities that will drive the right behind.

Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah, basically being able to answer the question is, is this sticky, right? Is the adoption really going to be there? Is it kind of artificial in nature, right? Because you just simply blasted a bunch of product, you know, into the end of the market. Really, really good stuff there. And I think you probably agree with the sentiment, too, is that a lot of startup founders struggle with this idea of almost limiting themselves in this capacity because they think they can't, they can't sort of execute against sort of like, quote-unquote, commercial activities because they don't have a clearance. They don't have an approval. But from my perspective, there's always these options.

opportunities, right, laddering up to various milestones along the way, whether it's getting into a feasibility study or executing a pivotal trial where there's a lot of like commercial learnings that you can leverage along the way that you don't necessarily have to have, you don't have to necessarily be in a launch per se, but you can almost treat it like, you know, sort of early commercialization, even though you're technically not selling product. You know, it's actually interesting you mentioned that. I didn't realize this. And then I now I really emphasize it. My time in Ardian, when I spoke with the management issue, Andrew Pooleland, that was a good friend of mine, pulled me in and talking to him and the VP of sales marketing back then. They said we'd like to hire a clinical research person and a market development person to help finish the clinical trial like a salesperson would.

It's the same mindset like you mentioned. It's, you know, luckily I had a background in clinical research and sales. So I did, you know, like the best of both worlds. But we, as we, I was one of the first there on the commercial side, wrapped. up the trial, we did hire our next, you know, instead of sales reps to market development managers. In a disruptive space like that is, you know, trying to finish a clinical trial, like a salesperson, what is, you know, enrollment in a trial is as important as getting patients treated when you're commercial. So having that commercial mindset on what does it take, build relationships with the physicians,

incentivize the right behaviors when it comes to publications, maybe when it comes to potential for enrollment, you know, what's going to, what's important to your end user or your customer? And in a pre-commercial company, everyone is still an end user or a customer. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, on that note, let's talk a little bit about kind of some of the things that you picked up on, even just sort of with the goal of kind of disrupting standard of care, right? Getting physicians to not only care, but adopt this new kind of paradigm of TAMP, right, which is that acronym that we talked about, you know, a few minutes ago.

That's no easy feat, right, to change behaviors. We all kind of understand that. Maybe more than most, you know this, right, with your days going from Ardian to to Heartflow, you know, in the past decade at Renovo, you know, if you're asked this question from other founders or other CEOs of METTAC startups, they're trying to do something similar, right? Like trying to change standard of care. What are a couple things that you think they really need to get right or really need to understand about kind of what it takes to, you know, to see sort of this behavioral, you know, procedural sort of change? Yeah, you know, it's a great question because

I think people miss this quite often. And it's what I believe argued very well. And I learned from this is that you find your biggest roadblock to make them your champion. And it was a to me at Ardian where we had a technology to a device that was used by cardiologists to treat patients where they're stealing patients from nephrologists and hypertension specialists. And when we found and showed data to the key hypertension societies, the nephrology societies, and they were so wild by the data that they became our biggest advocates and champions, the referral pattern was built in and our roadblocks became our biggest champions. We did the same thing in heart flow and did the same thing at Renova RX. And it's data that drove that. It's finding out. It's finding out

what they need. In fact, our clinical trial in our phase three is as much as it's done by interventional radiologists, the procedure of the end user, the trial was designed by medical oncologists because basically came down to what do you need to make sure that this is the best possible treatment for your patient. That's so interesting because I think the natural inclination for a lot of us is, especially in those early formative years of seeing kind of the, I want to say haters, that's a bad description, but like the folks that are cynical, right, that you feel a lot of resistance from. And it's a lot of times easy to kind of just be like, oh, I don't have time to try to convince that person. I'm going to move on to the next, right? Someone that's, you know,

maybe more willing to listen to me. It feels like an easier discussion, et cetera. But it sounds like what you're saying is actually, no. I mean, if that lean into those roadblocks, right, figure out what's really causing the friction and what's really causing the hurdle and then try to try to deliver on that because those roadblocks could be, you know, could sort of the, could sort of grease the skids, you know, in a lot of different ways. Yeah, it's 100%. It's, it's really driving towards the uncomfortable because that's what gets you to success. And I don't know if you play golf, but if you learn how to hit a golf swing, if it peals natural, you're doing it wrong. Don't go up with it comfortable and easy, but lean in, like you said, lean in the rope blocks,

you know, lean in the uncomfortable and the unknown because that's probably where the answer is. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. And so many of these like decisions along the way right in the startup feel uncomfortable, you know, they don't. You're oftentimes, not only are you faced with kind of like not a lot of resources, not a lot of capital, right? But not a lot of information. right, and that never feels good, you know, making a decision with 70, 80% of the information, it feels like, you know, you're taking too big of a risk, but the reality is like if you're not moving forward, right, and not making these decisions and in this context, right, not leaning into some of those cynics or some of those, you know, people that are giving you a lot of

objections, truly trying to figure out why, the why there, right? Oftentimes that can, you know, if you lean into that, that can kind of pave the way for, you know, potential potential future success anyway. Let's transition to this ongoing balance of, of clinical versus commercial, right? Because you're in the throes of this, wrapping up a pretty large study, but also, you know, also, you know, kind of you are launching this commercially, right?

So there's obviously a careful, careful balance there. And you mentioned earlier, one of the key challenges was like, does our commercial efforts, you know, does that sort of cause challenges, right, with enrollment on the, on the clinical side? So walk us through kind of how you've been able to balance kind of both, you know, simultaneously over the past year.

So it's really, it's been more sequential simultaneous, and that's why I've kind of withheld this technology from physicians for the last better part of the decade, is we really thought that this could cannibalize a trial. So we're launching slowly and carefully in geographies that are different than our clinical trial sites. And we're almost done with enrollment. We'll wrap up early next year. So we've got the point where we've got physicians leaning in and engaged. And if they, as we transition our clinical sites and the customers down the road, if there is a little overlap in transition, we have to really make sure that if you have a candidate who couldn't roll, then, you know, do not offer this treatment. And more importantly,

if they get randomized to the control arm, they can't cross over and go get treated somewhere. So it's the right kind of timing of transition as we're ramping sales and commercial. There's enough geographical and mind-share separation between the two where they shouldn't affect each other. Got it. And has that been kind of kind of internally, do you, I mean, have you been able to kind of, like, sort of divide and conquer appropriately? Because I imagine there's a lot of overlap, right? because it's not like you've got some huge, massive team and have the resources to sort of act like that. So do you have a lot of the same people doing kind of doing both? Or is it kind of, you know, split between kind of commercial and clinical? Yeah, it's actually relatively split. So as much

we have a small team, we wear a lot of hats and we're very collaborative and help each other, I've got a very strong clinical team that's kind of in their own. And then I've been ramping on the commercial side. And the overlap comes from relationships. There's a lot of the same positions and the same colleagues and introductions. And then I think like kind of the glue between my, my chief medical officer, chairman, the invention of the technology, you know, he kind of spans both sides. So he's chief medical officer and kind of overseeing the trial, but as the expert in physician, you know, he does talk to our customers and talks to physicians. So it's, it's somehow worked out great, where there's enough of a balance and an overlap that's less

and a collaboration where it is actually working quite well. Yeah. That's, that's cool to hear because I can't imagine, like, you know, it's taken on a lot, right? Running it running a large clinical study in and of itself is a big effort, right? But yeah, you're, you're obviously finding a lot of synergy between kind of doing, doing, I want to say doing both, but kind of like finding that balance between kind of that sequential next step from, you know, wrapping up enrollment on your, on your trial to like, you know, beginning to really scale up commercially. So with that said, I want to circle back around. I think, if my notes are correct, you IPOed in 21, right, which is kind of in the throes of, in the throes of COVID era, right? So I'm sure that wasn't that probably, you know, added

to the added to the challenges of doing that. But that's a bit unique for a pre-revenue, a met tech company at the time. So give us a sense for kind of the decision, the decisions that kind of led up to that IPO. Like, why, in essence, why you decided to go that path versus, you know, continuing to kind of, you know, remain private. And what's that, what's that been like, right?

Personally, right, as, you know, running a now publicly, publicly traded company. Hey, everyone. Let's take a quick break to talk about Fastwave Medical, the company I co-founded and lead as CEO. We're developing next generation intravascular lithotripsy or IVL systems to tackle complex calcific disease. Over the last few years, we've closed a series of oversubscribed funding rounds, bringing the total investment into FastWave to over $50 million. Corporate interest in the IVL space is growing to the $900 million acquisition of Bolt Medical by Boston Scientific in 2025,

and Johnson and Johnson's $13 billion acquisition of Shockwave Medical, signal a lot of attention on emerging IVL startups like FastWave. And we're making serious progress. In addition to recently receiving our ninth patent, we've successfully completed peripheral and coronary feasibility studies and are gearing up for pivotal trials. If you're interested in investing in the fast-growing IVL market, head over to fastwavemedical dot com forward slash invest. Again, that's fastwavemedical.com forward slash invest.

Now, let's get back to the conversation. Yeah, it's been interesting pathway. I remember growing up in the Silicon Valley area, you hear IPL and you think exit. And really that's changed a lot in a sense. It was a means for funding. And like you mentioned COVID, and that's exactly what happened. We actually had a term sheet for a large Series B funding with strategics coming back into the round. And some kind of brand name venture capitalists.

Previously not really been venture funding before. More family office and angel invested in a strategic Boston Scientific came in and let our Series B funding. So we're kind of in that next phase of, you know, we'd launch for page three where we had a term sheet for about 20. million dollars to take us through a lot of the clinical development. And then a term sheet, I think I signed in December of 2019. And one of the investors wanted to get a second VC involved. We're in deep diligence with four, a very high probability that two would be interested in me pick one. And then COVID hit March or February. And then everything stopped. And as we're burning cash and I was on my couch with COVID from Belgium off a business trip in February of 2021,

or sorry, 2020, we were trying to look for options on how we actually financed the company because people stopped investing, not knowing what the world is going to turn into. And through mentors and advisors, we learned how attractive the public markets were. And if we wanted to get out, the window might close. We could actually raise money on the public side. So it was definitely not an anticipation of wanting to be public. It was more of a means to an end on how do we finance the company. And so we did a traditional IPO back in August of 2021 to give us enough funding to kind of sustain the story.

so to speak in advance for progress got it yeah and i i love the branding by the way people are listening to this via audio right but we're on we're on video and you've got the uh yeah the the the the ticket right r nxte uh so so so right so right so right right on brand so yeah so yeah so more more of me and i think that's probably one of the things that's underappreciated right about about ip oing is like you know to your point most people think of like oh it's a splashy event you're ringing the bell ring the bell everyone got paid in essence it's like no that can be an IPO but in a lot of scenarios it's a path to capitalizing the company in a different way, right, beyond traditional venture. And I think, I don't know, I kind of suspect that granted, there's a lot of uncontrollables here in

broader market conditions, but I would expect probably more of this activity to happen, right? Because I think the data is pretty clear that most BCs are, you know, the goalposts continue to shift, like right, right, and most venture firms are to their credit. I mean, whether you like it or not, they're doubling down on their winners, in essence, right? And so that just kind of continues to present this gap, right, in earlier stage, earlier stage companies. And, you know, there's a lot of really, really cool technology that could benefit a lot of physicians and patients. And, you know, I think the path that you took, right, is one of those that should be explored by other startups. When you think back about, you know, since

IPOing in early 21, you know, we're now recording this, you know, call it almost five years later, anything that comes to mind, are there like one or two things that you're like, if someone else that's listening to this, another CEO that's thinking about going down going in this direction that, you know, they really, they really need to get right or really need to understand before they kind of make a final yes or no decision. It's been a crazy road. It's, it's, the public markets have not been great for life sciences in the last several years. So it's been, it's been, you know, the valuations are challenging. One thing you mentioned, you know, you mentioned ringing the bell. We had the opportunity. Our pictures were on, you know,

down the NASDAQ tower in New York and Times Square. And we didn't read the bell. And it's funny because because it was a means of funding and the valuation wasn't what I wanted to be. I still have a lot of friends and family, the founder's friends and family, all my early investors, a lot of people have invested or still shareholders, even though the stocks tanked since that biocheck crashed since the IPO and the heyday of the 2020, 2021 public markets. As we're still alive, I do feel like we're close to getting there, you know, kind of towards the tunnel where we have commercial, we've got phase three assets. So I'm planning on circling back once we do get to the success that I believe we should be at to return the actual return an investment to my shareholders.

I do want to go ring the bell at that point. So that is down the road in the site. So you mentioned that. It's an interesting kind of thought process. But as far as less learned for companies, I would say take the best capital you can. Being in the public market is very expensive. There are a lot of additional expenses that in terms of D&O insurance, audit fees. attorneys, the finance department. So it's not, I wouldn't say it's the cheapest cost of capital.

So I'd stay private as long as you can. Having said that being the public sector and one of the thoughts was it's easier to raise money in the capital markets. The question is that what structure and what and what valuations. And so along the way, it's a matter of taking the right kind of money and being very careful on who the investors are, what the funds are, what the structures are. And so I would say find mentors, find people to talk to, find trusted bankers, and find the right partners to make sure you're making the right decision along the way. I've learned a ton being in the capital space now in the market's the last four years. And I know which bankers and which investors for the most part. And there are not good finances in the public market.

And there are very good finances in the public market and making sure you know what that is before you go into it. And along the way is really important. Yeah, that's really good, really good feedback. Maybe you don't even have to go back and ring the bell, right? We can just, you know, produce a video on with AI these days, right? And Sora or something. One of the other, all of him's, right? Maybe I'll plug that into GROC and send you over like a video of, you know, Sean and the Renovo team in a couple years, right? Ring the bell. So with that, with that said, I want to touch on hiring too, right? Because as you, as you scaled the team and continued to make more progress against, you know, various, various milestones, you've had to hire a lot of folks along the way. This is one of the, you know, I think the most, maybe the most or if not one of the most important, you know, things a CEO has to do, especially at a startup. Anything come to mind in terms of like, this is my best tip on hiring, identify, either identifying, you know, candidates or convincing them to kind of jump on a pirate ship. You know, what are a couple things to come to mind that might be helpful for other startup CEOs? Yeah, there's two things. One is finding the right people, of course, is, I mean, that's an obvious one.

The right fits, as I mentioned, we really want to test the market to see what the right phenotype is for the, the salespeople I brought in, knowing exactly what you need, what level, what level of risk, what level of commitment, what level of passion, kind of hybrid backgrounds as well, being a small company. We were very frugal and not hiring one person to fit in a silo. Every person is cross-functional. You go back to salesperson clinical. My chief clinical officer is out there talking to positions sometimes, and sometimes it's a side

conversation that actually ends up in an actually commercial opportunity that she hands off the sales team down the road at a neighboring hospital. So it's making sure you can hire people that are multifaceted with varied backgrounds. I was lucky again to have clinical research and cells in my background, which is rare, but it may be the right fit for RD in to help make that successful. So that's very important to make sure to get that right fit and balance. And the other biggest piece of advice I gave was giving me when I was younger is be slow to hire and quick to fire. You've probably heard this at before. Instead of someone's not working, it's better for their career. and it's hard to do.

It's one of those hard choices. You mentioned the hard things to you have to do as an entrepreneur or as CEO or as a manager for that matter. But if it's a bad fit, they may not be a bad employee, but especially in this fast-paced small company environment is take care of that quickly

because you need to make that investment on the next perfect fit as soon as you can. Yeah. Yeah. And that phrase, I mean, I think it's easy to say, right,

much harder to do. Right? Because I don't think anyone, anyone necessarily wants to be in a position where they're like, you know, they're firing someone. But to your point, oftentimes it's obviously not only probably good for the company,

but also probably better for their career, right, as well. Like if it's just not working out, you know, so the sooner you do that, the better. But yeah, again, easy to, easy to say, hard to do. But like crucial, you know, very, very crucial advice. And the crazy part too, Scott, is, you know, I've, I like people and I like working with people. You like to work with them. I mean, we work so much. It's so many hours.

It's important you actually like to be around people here with a lot. And that's, you know, anyone who hasn't worked out of the company, nine out of ten times as someone I liked and still kept in contact with. It's important to know where the fits are. And so it does behoove both you and the employee if you make that move. And then pick the right people going forward.

Well, you mentioned it kind of at the outset of your answer to is like before you even make that hire or when you're kind of going through this recruiting phase, making sure that that person is comfortable wearing multiple hats, right? That's a must inside of a startup. There's never silos. And if there are silos, they should probably be torn down. there's no time or no budget for silos.

And if everyone is not wearing multiple hats, it's usually just not, it's a hard, it's a hard game to play, right, if you're not comfortable doing that. So yeah, it's really, really, really important, right? To be looking for those types of, not only those types of people that are comfortable wearing multiple hats, but actually maybe enjoy it, right?

They enjoy doing a lot of different things, right? That's really important, actually. I've seen that before because there are startup minded people and there are non-started minded people. Some people like existing processes. They want to punch in eight, punch out at five, go home. and forget about it. But then you get the people who want to work, you know, the extra hours and want to really learn more things and get exposed to more of things and are comfortable in the

unknown of, well, there's not a procedure for this. Let me invent the procedure. And there are two different types of people. Yeah, yeah. And that's probably one of the, like, maybe one of the things that stands out to me over the past, I would say, call it 10 to 15 years in the world of startups is it's easy to like look at, look at this as kind of like the sexy space. It's fun. It's like things are changing rapidly. You get to make all these decisions, et cetera. But they're really, really hard. Don't get me wrong. There's, you know, as you can probably testify, right, there's, there's, there's a lot of fun and you do have a lot of autonomy and, and you can make a lot of decisions, but they're also very challenging, right? And there's a lot of pressure. And sometimes

that's just not a good fit, you know, and that's okay. That's totally okay, right? Some people just aren't, aren't, aren't okay with that. But I think one of the, one of the key things for me anyway, when I think about like, you know, trying to find people that would thrive in a startup environment is, is that curiosity, right? Not that they, they typically, maybe they can wear multiple hats, but they feel burdened by that. Well, that's usually a sign that it's not, like, that's probably not going to work out for the long term if you feel kind of burdened by that.

But if you actually enjoy it, if you're like, I don't know as much about this other area, but I want to like really dig in. And I'm going to be really good in this other area, but I'm going to start getting really good, you know, just give me a little bit of time in this other area. Like that's the type of person, right, that usually is going to thrive in a startup where they don't feel,

it's not like an like an onus to have to do multiple things. They actually like and enjoy doing, you know, multiple things. Yeah, yeah. You know, it's funny you mentioned how do you attract people to come to this risky startup? And we convince people not to come. Every interview, the founder and I will actually end the interview with, you know, do you feel comfortable, you know, changing things? Would you rather kind of, you know, follow the same thing over and over again? Do you like repetitiveness?

Do you like system set up? Do you like processes? Or do you operate in a space of chaos well? And it's like, we almost scare them on this is a startup company. It's not going to be easy. There are going to be things that we don't know yet. that we're going to build it. One of my favorite phrases that I use every day is we've been building this plane

as we're flying it for 11 and a half years now. And now it's this massive fighter jumbo jet. We're actually getting the end of it. But, you know, there are pieces falling off in the beginning. And there's not an engine or a wing. And everyone in this company is so passionate about what we're doing. And they're comfortable in that environment, knowing there's no CDL, but, you know, but the gas pedal works.

Yeah, yeah, no doubt. Yeah. Sean Morris was on the show like maybe a year ago, a serial myth, an entrepreneur. sold Benidi to Boston Scientific. He's now on to Amplify, I believe is the name of the company. But anyway, he used the same analogy, right? It's very much like driving the car as you're trying to repair it, right, and get oil changes.

But you're not stopping, right? You have to keep going and keep driving. You know, I think it's a really good analogy. And I know sometimes, like, in these operating in these environments, people would look in or peek behind the hurt and they're like, whoa, like that's really how it goes. And it's like, well, yeah, it's a lot of chaos, you know. And that's a very normal thing.

And it reminds me, this was like maybe a couple months ago. I read this long form piece on, it was one of the OpenAI's big investors. And I can't remember the name of it. I think it's one of the Kushners. I can't remember which firm invest. Anyway, I can't remember the name is of the firm. It wasn't Jared. It was Josh.

I mean, I can't remember his venture firm. But anyway, huge position in Open AI. And the long form article was like going into detail around like sort of the chaos, right? Of like, you know, when certain things came up in the public domain that I think we're all aware of and like what was kind of happening behind the scenes. And you think about a company like Open AI and you're like, well, it's, you know, billions of dollars are going into that company. It must be like, it must be really kind of smooth operation at this point. It's like, no, I mean, no. It sounds very chaotic, just like most, most startup. So, yeah, it's a good, good topic. One quick thing before we get to

the rapid fire portion of the interview, you touched on this like very, very briefly at the, at the, kind of like, I don't know, 20, 30 minutes ago at the very beginning of our conversation around kind of the economics, right? These drug device combos and how in the world of oncology, a lot of, like therapeutics or a lot of devices are being reimbursed as therapeutics. Talk to us a little bit about about that. Is that something that you kind of had to build out with Renovo RX? Or was there like a kind of an existing kind of reimbursement pathway that you were kind of able to tap into? What does that look like? So it's both actually. So initially there's there's existing coding and that's always a challenge. You know, unfortunately there's a lag between FDA clearance and

reimbursement a lot of times, which is why we often commercialized in Europe first, which is right, I lived with all this pretty much with Artian. But luckily, given the procedures we're doing, there are so analogous to other therapies and technologies, which is great because the analogies have blazed trails for us, where reimbursement coding is in place. But we've got this kind of different way of doing things where it's analogous enough for reimbursement,

but the exact technical mechanism is different enough where it protects the space for us. So we've been lucky that way. Now, there are other technologies, like Novo Cures example. They had to get their own reimbursement coding. around this kind of tumor treating field, electromagnetic field technology. But it's, again, the idea of oncology device is getting paid like drugs is there.

You know, I think it's maybe $100,000, a couple of hundred thousand dollars per, you know, for the treatment therapy for device-based procedure and treatment. So in the oncology world, we're starting to see treatments be reimbursed on that way. And it's, this really comes back to the cost of drugs and devices as much as they're expensive. The development costs are so high that no one's going to invest in this. space unless there is a return on investment. So it kind of follows each other. Okay, got it. Got it. So it sounds like in your, in your scenario, there is, there's already

like codes and a pathway that you could tap into. Yeah. Because I know you mentioned Josh Mackauer. He's, he spent, I think, so much time and in so much like really, really good work around, around, you know, making this a point of emphasis, right, more at the policy level of, like, look, there's amazing technologies that could help a lot of people. But that gap, that reimbursement gap, that is a huge chasm to, to cross. That's really, really difficult. And there needs to be like better, you know, better bridges, I guess, for lack of a better description there. So, you know, kudos to- The crazy part is on the drug side. That's one of the reasons we went to the drug route with a drug device combination is it's a different world.

It's a member of being in a talk. Actually, I think Josh Makros are as well. Or like, oh, you know, if your pharma, this doesn't apply to you. There's a gap in the device world. And farmer, once you get approval from the FDA, there's an unlisted J-code, which you get reimbursement at almost any price right away, which is if drugs are so expensive. And so that's something that with a drug device approval, as much as we can charge $50,000 for our therapy with our device over the treatment course, the analogous company, like Delcalf,

for example, they're charging $185,000 for their kit because it's reimburses a drug. And they have three procedures. So now we're talking hundreds of thousands up to a million dollars for a drug product versus the device product. Got it. Super interesting. Yeah, that's maybe a topic for a whole other conversation. Yeah, because a lot of nuances there.

But with that said, I want to get to the rapid fire port. to this interview, but again, everyone listening, you've made it this far. Renovorrx.com is the website. We'll link to it in a full write-up on MedSider. If you're new to MedSider, maybe this is the first interview you've listened to in a while. The long-form summaries that accompany these podcasts are really helpful to kind of go back to you. If you don't want to re-listen to the interview, you can go back and kind of, you know, glean a lot of insights that our guests like Sean share throughout the course of these conversations. So definitely encourage you to go there. We'll link to Renovo RX as well as Sean's LinkedIn profile. But again, if you're listening

and don't have a chance to get to that summary article, R-E-N-O-V-O-R-X.com is the website. So, Sean, with that said, last few questions here, rapid fire. If you want to expand on your answers, that's totally fine. First question I've got, since your last time on MedSider, right, which is back in like 16, 2016, 17, a lot of times passed, what's the most, you know, surprising or unexpected thing that you've learned at

at Renovo over the past decade? Interesting. I'm trying to rewind back that far. You know, I think the time and money it takes to get things done is always surprising. for me. It's, and look at every company, you're always raising more money than you think you need, you know, and the company takes longer than you think. I think the biggest thing for NoBRAX specifically is the resistance to adoption. And it's funny because I've known this. I've been in three companies now where you have to change behavior, you mentioned, and changing

decision behavior is important. And we thought as a company, when I got hired, being new to the cancer space back in 2014, that if we show that this may have some benefit in a large unmet need, that this will get adopted and rock the races. And we end up having to pivot, shift gears and invest in a very large, very expensive, very long, randomized study to show, you know, unequivocally that this three bits doing better for patients. And while that seems obvious, sometimes things which seem obvious, like this is not any worse than current therapy, it's localized, it's got to work.

You know, that doesn't actually hold true. So really understanding what the market needs is important. We did a lot of market research along the way. really now we get it like we've seen exactly the technology works we've seen what the referral pathways are we're kind of poised and set to scale and grow in the marketplace but a lot of times we go in overconfident and and we did too and I've seen that in previous companies where I go back to you hire a bunch of sales reps you scale the company you raise a lot of money you burn it all and realize well that was the wrong way let's go raise money and go dirtways so luckily we've been so

frugal and how we've done this where we didn't waste much capital and I look back and I probably wouldn't have changed a ton. I think the biggest interesting thing, my founder jokes about this, I feel like we're getting successful now. It's like, you know, if you came to me, he started the company 13 years ago. I joined 11 and a half years ago. If you told me what it's going to take to get there, there's no way would have done this. It's like, you know, how many years of our lives we put it in this, how much money we've taken in and had to spend, how many of our investors had to lean in and invest and reinvest, we wouldn't have probably taken this on. Now, of course, we don't regret it.

We're learning long along the way. And we're there. It took all of this. I don't believe we've missteps. It's just kind of steps upwards on a staircase every time. It's like we've gone the right direction without any major setbacks, which is great. I think the global markets have been stressful and challenging. But for the most part, we learned and we pivoted quickly.

And I think that's an important point as well is if you do see something you need to change to, do it fast. And that's what we as small companies and entrepreneurs are. good at. And that's why it's important to develop these things and get them to a scalable point. So the large companies don't mess them up. Right. Right. And I've seen that too. As you know, honestly, with Ardian was an interesting example. You know, this company, I really wanted to make sure this is translatable to clinical practice before we sold it off. And we're almost there in that sense. Ardine was a great example where we built something, a technology that worked. Being one of the lead proctors there, I saw first hand the patients do better. I saw the physicians liking

the technology. And the phase three trial that Metronic did was a different trial design. It was a different patient population and the treatment paradigm is a little bit different. So large companies go of what they know and often they can't develop, pivot, understand, and move as fast and as cheaply as small companies can but they're good at scaling. So I believe once you get a technology, quote unquote, there, they can kind of take it over and build it. So I think the biggest thing is as much you can anticipate and anticipate, and, you know, be ready to strap it and hold on because it might be a lot longer you expect. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned like several, several key things that we could probably, you know, talk about for the next, next hour.

But that, to your point about, you know, start startup companies being able to pivot and iterate fast, right? That sometimes can feel like a constraint, right? I wish we had more resources or I wish we had this or that, right? But that is typically your power, right? Your secret power as a startup is that you can make decisions really fast. You can pivot. You can iterate, unlike these larger companies, right? I mean, that's like they're going to move extremely slow and they're not going to be able to change course, you know, very quickly. And so oftentimes that's, you know, leaning into your constraints is oftentimes the answer. So next question I've got, which maybe is kind of similar, but let's say we're in Silicon Valley, right, your neck of your neck of the woods. And we've got a small room full of, you know, 20, 30 mettech entrepreneurs. What's the one like lasting piece of advice that you'd want to like, you know, give to them or want to, hopefully they can really kind of truly understand, you know, in order to experience some sort of success in their,

in their ventures. You know, it's interesting. I think I have the same answer for the question almost 10 years ago when I talk to you. I think the biggest success in my career has been mentors. And it's really, the thing about this deeply, I get emotional a little bit about it. It's important to find the right people that will kind of drive you and teach you. And we, now that I'm kind of older, I'm gray hair, I try to this same for younger people when they have advice. I get calls. Maybe people older than me asking about, you know, what banks or how do you navigate the capital markets, you know, how do you get a drug or device through? And I'm always open answer questions. And I believe we as medical technology entrepreneurs, I like that. Josh Macro's

like that for me, Andrew Pleeland. And we, this is a community that wants to get these things advanced. I mean, now people like Josh Maccar, he was the young CEO in my first job, who is looking up and being mentored by the CEOs in different groups in the Bay Area. And now he's doing policy. You know, he's actually trying to advance this and make this easier for the generations to come. So stay networked is important. Look and find those mentors who can give back. And there's a lot of us out there, a lot of them, and listen along the way. I think where where I've seen younger entrepreneurs get stuck is they don't listen to advice and they don't pivot quickly because they're not open and they're a little bit too arrogant in a thought process.

be open-minded, listen, and find your mentors to help guide, answer questions, and see things you may not see in your experience. It's really important. Yeah. That can sound so, like, obvious, so straightforward, right? But it really, there's like really, there's cumulative effects, right? If you're able to establish a network earlier on in your career and those types of people that you mentioned, right, I don't know Josh and Andrew, you know, personally, but like those types of mentors are so instrumental, right? And so if you have one in your world, like, hang on to them tight, right? and do well by them, you know, because those are really good, those are really good people. So that's really good, really good stuff.

All right. Last question I've got, because I know we're up against the clock. I want to be sensitive of your schedule. Let's rewind. I mean, you had kind of a fast, like a hot start coming out of like, you know, pre-med undergrad, right? Into these like sexy, sexy companies. If you had a chance to go back to, you know, younger, younger Sean, you know, in your call it mid-20s, late 20s, anything you tell them or whisper in the ears of your younger version of yourself?

I think two things, you know, two very different things. One is I was a little arrogant when I was younger because I did have a very fast start. Kind of given how much I had to focus on kind of customer facing, physician facing, there was a level of arrogance of I just kind of did my own thing and didn't bring along people. It didn't realize that what it takes to build the company in terms of everyone leading in. And I've realized how important it is I got to see the patients to the physician. So I had that passion, that drive. But for example, the engineers have never leave the building. They don't get to see what happens out in the field. They don't get to see how old patients do. And I've translated that now. I'll go to our contract manufacturer and give a talk sometimes on, you know,

here are the patients you help treat building that little widget piece of my device. And so making sure that you translate that passion of the whole team is important. That was one side. Another side is don't worry. Things work out. It's like it's, I look at what stressed me out six months ago. And now I'm like, wow, that was easy. You can convert this.

And I've said that every six months for the last 20 years. So I think in your 20s and 30s is when you start to think this is so hard, how do I get through this? This is a tough decision, make the decision, move on, get mentors. And then you look back and that, you learn from it. If it's the wrong decision, you learned. And if it's the right decision, you advance. And none of us got here by making the right decision every time. That's how we're so good at what we do.

Yeah, yeah. That's a really good way to end the conversation. But yeah, I couldn't agree more. like both of those sides, right, of your answer. So, Sean, I can't think you enough, man. It was awesome to connect again. It's been too long, but it was a pleasure having you back on. And, yeah, it's fun to see, like, I can't imagine, like, all the things that we didn't

touch on that you've been through over the past, over the past decade, but you're, like, you still hear technology looks really, it looks really cool, but it sounds like it's really helping a lot of people, which is obviously most important here. So in the world that we operate in. So, yeah, really cool. Couldn't wish you a ton of success over the next year. Great to be back. Thank you, Scott. I appreciate the opportunity. I'll be holding the line. And for everyone listening, again, highly encourage you to check out the full summary of this discussion on MedSider. And again, check out Renovo Rx. The website as well, RenovorX.com. So thanks for your attention, as always, until the next episode of Medsider goes live, everyone, take care. Hey, it's Scott again. One quick thing before you go. You see, I love bringing you insightful conversations with the best founders and CEOs of medical device and health technology startups. But here's the thing. I'd be super grateful if you could help me reach even more ambitious doers who share our passion.

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