Megalithic Marvels - Guess What Was Found Inside America’s Ancient Mounds? (rewind)

Episode Date: September 16, 2026

Across North America, enormous ancient mounds and precisely engineered geometric earthworks preserve the legacy of sophisticated Indigenous cultures—and some have also inspired enduring mysteries. In this episode, we explore these remarkable monuments, unusual artifacts discovered within them, and controversial historical reports of unusually large skeletons unearthed from ancient mounds. What do these discoveries really reveal about the people who built America’s mysterious earthworks thousands of years ago?

Dr. Greg, thank you so much for joining me today and making time. Thank you. I appreciate it very much. And Derek, just call me Greg. Dr. Greg is one extra word. Sounds good. Yeah. So you've been on a kind of a hiatus, taking a break. So honored that you said yes to the interview request. For those that may not know a lot about mound culture, I'm really excited to get into this topic today because it's something I've just been fascinated by the last couple of years. and then I started following you. And man, you're just on Twitter. You're on fire posting pictures every day all the time. And so that really opened my eyes in another realm to not just the mounds that once existed and some that still exist,

but all these incredible artifacts inside. I love how you bring that to life. And then you're an author. You've written, man, a plethora of books. So why don't you start out by talking, Greg, about. But how did you kind of get into this whole thing of investigating the ancient mound building culture? Yeah. Well, professionally, I have been in the field of criminal treatment since 1975, and I still am.

But I wrote my first book in 1983, really 82 and 83, and then it took a while for it to be published. and it was a follow-up to one of Carl Jung's books. But anyway, right after I wrote that book in 1983, I started having a series of dreams, and it was very unexpected. In these dreams, I was standing on an Indian mound, which I didn't even know what Indian mounds were. I had no idea.

I say all the time, and I've actually put it in books, that at that time, everything I knew about Native American Indian mounds, you could have written on the back of a postage stamp. And I know a lot of people that are going to listen to this, don't even know what a postage stamp is. But it's kind of small, you know, and you'd have to write really tiny on it. But I didn't really know anything. So I had these dreams. I was standing on a mound.

I was taking a picture. And then suddenly I was at another man taking a picture. And then another man. And I wake up. I talk to my wife about it. I had these dreams for roughly a week. At the end of the week, my wife and I had an experience with a spider. It's a long-involved story.

I don't want to get into it. It's written up in some books also. But I decided at that point we have got to go see a Native American mound. So the very first mound I went to was in my now hometown, Memphis, Tennessee. It's a site called Chukalisa. We walked in the door of the museum. And the first thing we saw, they had this rotating display from other museums. And it was a giant display of a spider.

And the spider looked exactly like the one that my wife and I had seen. scene. And suddenly, it came to me. I knew that I had to visit all the available mounds that could be found in North America and write an encyclopedia about them. So I started that project in 1983, before my first book came out in 84, and completed the project in 2009, the first edition, then updated it in 2016 and now I'm in the process of doing the next update. But that's how I got into maps, totally unexpected, and it came from dreams. You didn't expect that, did you? No, from a dream. Wow, that's very interesting.

So you have a dream that leads you to investigating this mound in Memphis, and now here we are in 2020, and you've written all these books, one of the foremost experts, on this topic. It looks like you've co-authored a lot of books with Andrew Collins as well. And so you guys, my listeners and viewers go to Amazon to find any of Greg's books. He's got the illustrated encyclopedia of Native American Indian Mounds and Earthworks, Origins of the Gods,

where you talk about even the Skin Walkers and Denisovan origins. Is that what it's called? Andrew calls it Denise Evans. Graham Hancock calls it Dennis Selwyn. But nobody knows what they called themselves. It's just different pronunciations of the British. Yeah. And like I said before, definitely follow Greg on Twitter.

He's on Facebook too. So Greg, Native American history, you know, obviously the Native Americans are an amazing culture in their own right. And we've got these mounds. I think I read that you said somewhere there was the first ones were erected. at least 6,500 years ago, and there was maybe over a million mounds at one point. Is that accurate? Yes. So here's what's happened.

First of all, back in the 80s when I started in this, the whole idea in mainstream archaeology. Let me define mainstream archaeology. It's the academics who teach the field. They really don't do much work in the field. And they are the ones who write the textbooks. So the mainstream archaeology are the people who promote what they call the facts or the known facts in the field. So anyway, in the 80s, they said that the first mounds were built in the northeast of the United States by what's called the red paint people and in the area around just south of the Great Lakes by a group called the old copper culture. And then they said that, and they said that was 3,000 BC.

So it would be 5,000 years ago. And then these groups went to Ohio. That's where it all started in Ohio, the big mounds and so on, and then it spread out. That was the fact. That was the facts that we were told up until about the mid-90s. Suddenly in the mid-90s, they started finding that there were mounds in Louisiana and Mississippi that dated to 3 to 4,000 BC, 4,500 BC, and then they started finding mounds along the coast of the Gulf Coast in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Florida, and up the Atlantic coast all the way up to South Carolina.

And those are dated roughly to 3,000 BC also, but there's probably some further out. On the west coast, there were loads and loads of mounds on the west coast, all up and down the entire coast. In fact, San Francisco Bay was packed with them, had them all over. the place. Most of them are now destroyed. And they're not destroyed by weather. They were destroyed by various projects that were done and used for construction.

Same thing in Oregon and Washington State. There were loads of them there. So now, up until six months ago, six months ago, the oldest mounds known in the United States or all of North America were in Louisiana, dated to

about the year 4,500, 4,600 BC. But now we know that there are mounds in Louisiana that go back to roughly 9,800 BC or 11,800 years ago. Now, the oldest mounds in South America, for example, go to 8,400 BC. And those are in the Amazon basin that is in Bolivia. and those are dated to about 8,400. And I've given a lot of talks and so on and always said, okay, the oldest mounds in the American now we know of are in Bolivia.

Now we know they're in Louisiana. So it keeps changing. So it went through various cultures, but the facts keep changing. So you said the oldest mounds to date now that we have are in Louisiana and they're 11,000 years old. Is that what you said? A little over 11,000 years old.

on the campus of Louisiana State University. By the way, I taught three years at LSU. Yeah, I taught three years there, but not in archaeology. Now, are there still actual mounds shapes there, or is it just the remnants of them? No, there are the actual mounds on the LSU campus. They were protect, students used to use them, and they drove jeeps over them and so on. And so they wound up putting a giant fence around them, and then they'd still crawl over the fence and have beer parties and so on, all them on them. And this past year, a large group of geologists with a couple archaeologists did a research study by coring these mounds. They were originally considered what's called Archaic Era Mounds, 4,400 BC. But nobody had ever done any real work on them. So they did

cores on them. They found that they, there's two of them there. They found that they were started around 9,500, 9,600 BC. And then for some reason, they weren't used again for a while. Then around 5,000 BC, they were used again. And then they were abandoned for a while. And then around 3,000 BC, they were used again. So that's coring where you go through the stratification or the layers. And they took charcoal samples from each layer. The research is really good on. That is so incredible to me that there's mounds on the campus of LSU. I got to ask you, because you mentioned Washington State. That's my home state here. I know your book, the illustrated encyclopedia would tell me this, but I want to ask you, since I'm with you here,

what were some of the most amazing mounds in Washington state that once existed or that might still exist? Well, I would have to glance in the book here to tell you exactly where they are. but I can tell you that there still are some gigantic, they're called sand mounds and shell mounds. The shell mounds last pretty much forever until farmers find them. And then they like to get, they like to get them and they grind the shell down because it's rich with phosphorus and has other minerals in them,

which are really good as fertilizer. That's how most of them were destroyed. But they're along the coast mainly. I believe Bremerton, is that in Washington? Is that in your state? the Bremerton mound, this is just coming from memory, the Bremerton mound, I think, is still there, and it was gigantic. I mean, some of these shell mounds get gigantic,

50, 60, 70 feet tall, hundreds, 6, 7, 800 feet long they can be. There's a couple in Florida, they're over 2,000 feet long, and they're that big. So the shell mounds are different from the mounds in the middle of the country, like in Ohio or Tennessee. or Illinois and so on. But the shell mounds are generally very old. And chances are if you took a boat that has side scan sonar,

and you went up and down the coast, and you went to the 10,000 BC shoreline, which would be at a depth of about 350 to 400 feet, you would find the remnants of shell mounds there. And there's not much of that going on. Archaeologists just don't do much of that anymore. There's very little underwater archaeology going on now. In fact, my wife and I did 10 years' worth of it in the Bahamas.

That's a whole other story, though. You'd mentioned, you know, mainstream archaeology earlier. You know, they chalk, it seems that they chucked most of these mounds up to being, you know, built by the Native Americans, which sounds like some of them wore, and it sounds like when you referenced the mounds at LSU, you know, they were repurposed, you know, over and over and over. but the earliest origins of these mounds, it sounds like you believe these were built by ancestors of what you call the Denisivans, right? And so can you talk to us a little bit about the origins and your theories on who this mound building culture was? Sure. Well, okay.

So let's let's start with some what is today factual. And it comes from genetics. There's a great deal of genetics research now that shows us. that South America was inhabited at least by 50,000 BC. There's just no doubt about it, 50,000 BC. There's also absolute clear-cut evidence showing that people came into South America from the South Pacific around 50,000 BC

because there are tribes in Brazil, these very remote tribes that have no interaction with modern society, except when researchers go in and start drawing blood, for genetics. So they have done the genetic tests and shown that these people's ancestors came from the southwest Pacific around New Zealand, Melanesia, Micronesia. They have a direct linkage to them. And they have legends about coming across too. However, that's probably not the oldest. We know that there were also people in South America probably as long ago, this is going to be astonishing as 200,000 years ago.

200,000 years. Archaeologists that are in North America hate that and say that's all nonsense. However, archaeologists in Central America and South America, to them, that is factual. And if you actually go into their museums, that's what they have in the museums, that people came here. And they say that the North American archaeologists deny all that because they want North America to be first. That's what's in their books. So, the next thing we know,

this came out just a couple years ago that the Americas in what we call North America, there were people here 130, 140,000 years ago. The evidence for that is in California. Graham Hancock has written a lot about that. So have

Andrew and I. So there were people already here. But we don't have any evidence that those people built mounds. If they did, chances are those mounds wouldn't be around anyway. I don't know if a mound will last 200,000 years, for example. Now, a stone structure might, but a mound, I don't think, would last that long because of erosion and growth on it. So what happened is somewhere around 10,000 BC, there were intrusions into the Americas. The archaeologists have all but proven that there were these big intrusions that came across Beringia, which is the land bridge between what is

today Russia and Siberia and Alaska. At the end of the last ice age, that was land that they crossed. So they say there were hordes and hordes and hordes of people that came over. And they appear to have blended in with the people who were already here. But in some cases, they had war with them. There were real genetic differences. So there's evidence that certain genetic strains were killed, killed off. A lot of that evidence comes from South American archaeology. Their archaeology is actually incredible, but people here just aren't familiar with it. At the same time, there is clear evidence that someone else, another group, came what is called the North Atlantic Trail and Route.

they came from, well, we're talking about the Denisovans now. The Denisovans were probably what's called the salutrian culture. All right. So the salutrians were in France, Portugal, the Pyrenees Mountains, and Spain up until about 16,000 BC. Then we know that that culture went to the Orkney Islands and it went to parts of England and up in the Nordic countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, they were there. And then it's believed that their descendants came in the north route and wound up coming in

somewhere around Canada and coming in and merging with the tribes that were already here, the people that were here. But they carried a different technology with them, and it's called the Clovis culture. For years, archaeologists said they were first, and they all came from Siberia. However, almost all the Clovis points have been found in the eastern part of North America. So this is another thing where archaeology just has been wacko. So the reason that they've said that they always came from Siberia is because there are people that say, oh, anybody that came from that area of Europe must be white.

But no, in 10,000 BC, they weren't. Andrew has shown in his parts of these books that the Denisovans and probably the whole salutian culture, if anything, they were from Asia and India, that area. And they were a very large, robust people. We know that from their genetics. And we know that from the various pieces of genetic material like teeth and so on, finger that has been collected in the Denisovic cave in Russia. Actually, it's in Siberia in Russia, southern Siberia.

So they came in and merged with the people already here. That appears to be the time mound building began. And we believe those people, the Denisovans and their ancestors became the elite of the society that was already here. It wasn't quite as advanced. They genetically merged with them, and they were what some people have called giants, but we're talking about individuals that are probably no more than seven to eight feet tall. But if you see a group of people seven to eight feet tall, for all intents and purposes,

for most people, they look like giants. And those giants have been pulled out of American mounds. Mainstream archaeology does not like to discuss that. There are a few of them that have. In fact, one mainstream archaeologist has dubbed this the Adina Elite Hypothesis since most of these seven to eight foot tall specimens of skeletons were removed from Adina-era tombs that are deep inside of very, very large mounds. I did a statistical comparison in a book on it.

And in fact, that's what convinced him to call this the Adina Elite hypothesis. So that's kind of a summary. The main bit of mound building started roughly around 2000 BC or so. That was the Adina culture. It then went into what's called the Hopewell. The Hopewell built loads and loads of mounds, but they're best known for building gigantic earthworks. the largest geometric earthworks

in the world are in Newark, Ohio. They're now a golf course. It won't be a golf course much longer, but it's been a golf course for nearly 100 years now, and that's what's preserved it. It's absolutely incredible.

At the time I showed Andrew Collins this site back in 2004, Andrew lived in the middle of Avebury, which is the largest stone's circle in the world. It has an outside moat and what they would call a barrow of about 30 acres. So there's this 30 acre site that has a moat in the interior with big walls of earth and the outside. But then Avery has these stone circles in a giant circle, these big stones, standing stones. So we took him to this site and he just stood there in awe and said there's nothing like this in the world, which I already knew.

Newark, Ohio has, it's just incredible. It's almost impossible to describe to people. You have to see it. Even seeing the survey, you just cannot comprehend how big this is. In fact, the Newark site, which extended for miles, had a walkway. I call a walkway, but imagine an interstate highway, 160 feet wide, going 56 miles from Newark to a place called Chilicothe, Ohio. just a straight line. And what you did is you flattened the earth to create this,

this 160 foot wide walkway. And then you built parallel walls of earth the entire 56 miles to an identical set of geometric earthworks in Chilicothe. That is all there. That's all in Newark, Ohio. And the Newark Earthworks is an octagon and a circle. That's a portion of it. The circle is a perfect circle that encloses 20 acres.

The walls of earth that make this circle, the outer walls of earth, are 14 feet high. It connects to an octagon that encloses 50 acres. Eight sides, walls of earth, 16 feet high. At each of the points of the octagon, there is an opening. And right on the inside of the opening of this octagon are platform maps that block it. So if you stand on the outside and try to look in, you. You can't see in because that platform mounds in there. And that indicates that there was a ritual going on in there.

And they either didn't want people looking in or they didn't want something coming out, which rituals that Native Americans did is a whole other story. But that's just part of the Newark Earthworks. There were these walkways that went to this giant 30-acre circle that is identical to the Newark, to the Abey, England stone circle, except it doesn't have the stones, but it has the outside wall of earth and an interior moat. And in the center of that is this huge mound that is an eagle effigy. The eagle effigy was excavated in the 1800s.

And what they found is it was used for cremations. So that's just one example. I've tried to describe it, but these are really hard to describe sometimes. And there are hundreds of these in the United States. They're just not visited by people. We're ignorant about it. So was I. In Toronto, every arrival is a statement,

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Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Fascinating. I definitely want to come back and ask you about the same. ceremonial thing happening, possibly there at Newark and what they didn't want coming out. But before I forget, first I want to ask you, okay, so we've got, as you say, the most complex formations of these geometric earthworks in the world. Yes.

Right here. I think you said the largest one's near St. Louis, and the base is larger than the Great Pyramid. Well, that's the mound. That's that. That's the mound. Yeah. At Cahokia, Illinois, you can actually see from the top of this 100 foot tall mound, that has a base almost 14 acres.

I mean, it's gigantic. To tell you how big the top is of this mound, back in 1987, at what was called the convergence, harmonic convergence, there were almost 6,000 people that gathered on the top of that mound, 6,000.

But you can see downtown St. Louis from the top of that mound. And we know this. This is all the archaeological record. This is mainstream archaeology. On the top of this mound, at Cahokia, Illinois, called Monks Mound, because a monk lived on it after the first priors came in, called the black robes by the Native Americans.

But a monk built there. But before that, there was a temple structure built on top of it. The walls of the temple were 50 feet high, 50 feet. The square footage of this on the first floor was 6,000 feet. It was 160 feet long building with walls. 50 feet high. This is all mainstream and all accepted. I mean, it was an incredible site.

There are 120 mounds at the Cahokia site. These mounds, they seem to be geomagnetic. And can you talk a little bit about are they built on gravitational like laylines? And then tell us about how they might align with the stars. Yes, okay. Well, some of them are built on geomagnet. magnetic anomalies, absolutely. And some of them are building gravity anomalies. That is also a bit of mainstream research people have done. The idea with some of them, particularly when the geometric

earthworks are associated, is that they utilize, the shaman would find special places that they could sense. It's almost always by water and certain types of rock formations that have a lot of crystal in them like granite is is a type. And anywhere where you have running water and granite, you're generating huge amounts of energy, electrical energy. Again, just mainstream information. Nothing woo-woo about any of that. So we know they chose a lot of these sites. Archaeologists don't like to say because the shaman picked it, but we know the shaman picked it and the shaman would determine the way they're aligned and made. But some of these sites, let's go back to Cahokia for just a minute in Monk's Mound.

So you have this 14-acre mound, that's the base, and it runs up, it goes up on its sides 100 feet, and then it has a big square, a flat top. And it has a couple levels on the way up. And the base of that mound is a gigantic. stone structure that is 45 feet high. 45 feet high. Don't know how long it is. It's probably 100 feet long.

In some areas, it goes down and it's 35 feet high. So there's some sort of a structure in there. That wasn't discovered until the mid-1990s, and it was discovered accidentally by a drilling company that was trying to install drains so that the water that accumulated on the top wouldn't cause erosion. So they encountered unexpectedly this giant stone down there that broke their drill bits. They brought in ground penetrating radar and have tried to study it, but they can't dig into it. They will never, not in our lifetime, they'll not dig into this and see what's there.

But a lot of mounds have these stone structures in them, loads of mounds. I've posted some photos of some of the stone structures in it, but this one is unheard of. I mean, it's enormous. So what exactly were the purposes of those? Some of them were tombs. And sometimes they would very, very important people in those tombs with the idea, it's not reincarnation. It's very much like a pharaoh. and the idea that you have to preserve the body so the soul can return and resurrect.

So it's the idea of resurrection as opposed to reincarnation, although the common people were allowed to have a choice about reincarnation. And again, that's very complicated, and that's another whole story. So another thing that they did with these mounds is they would build mounds sometimes within, in an area say that is a quarter mile by a quarter mile or a mile by a mile or two miles by two miles, but they're in very flat areas. So they'd build a mound. They'd put a temple on top and they'd have a structure or a pull in the top of the temple.

And they would build another mound and a temple on it. Maybe a shaman would live in that one. It's pretty easy to figure out which was the shaman's mound opposed to the chiefs mound or other elite members. and the shaman would view the rising and setting of certain stars from their mound to the top of the other mound and watch it set into the horizon. This now we know to be absolutely true. There are dozens and dozens of mound sites where this has been shown to be the case. And the point of that, mainstream archaeology actually started this research in 1987 or so. But what they said in their reports, and I've put their exact quotes in some of my books,

is that, well, you know, there's some of these sites that have 30, 40 mounds here in the United States. And so we find alignments all over. But we don't know what time of the year to look for other than like the solstice, the winter solstice, the summer solstice, and maybe the equinoxes, that's obvious. But beyond that, they say, we don't know what stars are important to them. We don't know anything. But we do now. And we have for the last roughly 20 years know what stars are important. They did a ritual called the Path of Souls ritual.

And the ritual involved the stars of Orion, predominantly Orion's nebula, which is called Messia 42. And it's a fuzzy kind of blue-red area that you'll see usually under the three belt stars of Orion. But so to the Native American tribes, they saw Orion, the constellation, as the hand. It was called the hand constellation. And the hand was formed by three stars holding a severed wrist. And they had a legend about it. And it was about a guy who tried to block a portal in the sky.

And so the gods cut off his hand and they hung it there as. as a threat and a warning to others. In the hands poem is Messier 42. And it was in their term an ogi. It's spelled O'G-E-E-O-G-E. Ogie. And an Ogie was sometimes, this Ogie was sometimes symbolized by a shell

because it was like a cup. And so the Path of Souls ritual took place when, and during the winter solstice, when a shaman or a medicine person could see Orion sinking into the western horizon in the winter. That's when it does this. It rises in the east, goes across, and it sinks into the western horizon right before sunrise. And so right before it goes beneath the horizon, they would release the soul. The soul had to make a trip and go to Messia 42.

and it stayed sort of encased in this, and they knew that this star would go down and around and under, in through the underworld. That was the soul's trip through the underworld that it had to take, and the next night it would appear again on the eastern horizon. And then the soul would get out and get on the Milky Way, The Milky Way was the path of souls, also called the Ghost Trail, the Wolf Trail. All the different tribes had different words or terms for it.

And then it would begin to make its way to the north, and it would eventually arrive at a constellation that they called either an eagle or a raptor bird of some kind. Most tribes called it that. A few tribes said it looked like an old. old Buffalo woman. But what it was was the Northern Cross, and the Northern Cross is the Cygnus constellation. And the Cygnus constellation has a very prominent star called Deneb. And Deneb was the other portal. That was the final portal. And that portal led the soul out of this world, to the sky world, to the other world. And it made a choice when it, it was there when it was at the split of the Milky Way, which is right where the Cygnus constellation

begins, the soul made a choice, and it had a test. If it failed the test, there was a spider that would grab it and take it to the underworld. But it had a choice. It could be shoved off, come back to Earth, and be reincarnated into a new body. That was one of the things. It could go to the underworld if it didn't pass the test, or it could go to the other world and go back with the ancestors and all of those yet to be born. So the star Deneb of the Cygnus constellation, you will always find aligned at these same sites that had the path of souls. And most of those sites are called Mississippian sites. They have gigantic platform bounds that look like pyramids with a flat top. Lots of those are in Mexico. If you go to Teotua Khan in Mexico,

you'll see the exact same thing. You will see that they have flat. top pyramids. And here we just call them truncated mounds or truncated pyramids. Put a nickel and you get a dollar. I could talk. I could talk the entire time we're here. Sorry about that. I'll let you ask you. No, that was that was very fascinating. I've got so many questions that and you kind of answered some of them in advance there. I definitely wanted to ask you about some of these belief systems they seem to have had. I find it so interesting that you referenced like I think it was a Cahokia mound there. Inside at the base underneath is this huge stone structure.

And then I saw you post on Twitter several months ago. I think it was one of the mounds in Ohio, an old photo you dug up from the Smithsonian or somewhere that showed this stone cube that was at the center. You know, because when we think of mound, we just think of this pile of dirt or shells. but I mean there was this stone cube right in the center of this mound that was incredible to me. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, that's the original Hopewell mound in Chilacothe, Ohio.

And it got its name, the Hopewell culture got its name because the prototype mound, the first one that was fully excavated, was at the Hopewell Plantation in Ohio. The original Adina mound is real close to there too, and it's on the Adina plantation. So we give these cultures the name of the plantation owners basically or the plantations where they live. Anyway, okay, so the Hopewell Mound site was a enormous set of earthworks that had earthworks inside the earthworks. And inside of those earthworks were mounds and mound formations. There's this one weird formation of earthworks that has seven mounds clumped together in the inside of. And that's in this gigantic one.

This 50 acres. I mean, these things are enormous. So when they excavated this mound in the 1800s, the original Hopewell mound, they started down. Many of these mounds, like I said, they have big stone chambers in them. The burial mounds often have very elaborate stone chambers. I mean, most people think of a burial mound is they laid the body down and piled dirt up. That's what I thought before I really got into this. and that's very common knowledge or common beliefs,

but that's not true. They prepared the bodies. They built, they put them in sometimes log tombs or stone slab tombs or stone stacked tombs with stone roofs. I mean, really elaborate. So at the Hopewell mound, when they got through the burials, and they often find the most interesting stuff beneath what is called the base of the mound. So the mound is piled up.

And when you get down to the ground level, they went down a bit further. And what they found was this gigantic cube, a perfect cube that they called an altar. It was made of rock hard clay, fired clay, rock hard fired clay. It didn't have any black on it. It very clearly wasn't used in fires. but it was definitely turned into a stone cube by the process. They wanted to remove it. There's a shovel that sits next to it.

Nowhere in the articles on this have I ever found what the size of it was. But it appears to be about three and a half to four feet cube, three and a half by four feet, by three and a half by four feet, by three and a half by four feet. That's what it looks like. they wanted to remove it, but it was so heavy, they could not move it at all. So what the archaeologist did was he had a giant stone box built around it. I'm not sorry, a wooden box, not a stone box, I wouldn't buy. He had this cube enclosed in this wooden box that they built.

It was very big. And then they covered it over and leveled it out. And it's remained that way today. And the whole idea was, well, we can't do anything with it. We don't know what to do with it. We can't move it. So we'll leave it here for the future. And of course, now laws are such that archaeologists can't go in and dig into it without Native American approval.

And they're not going to get that. So that's an example. And these Hopewell mounds, huge amounts of pottery, beautiful, artifacts that were made, these incredible pipes. I mean, they find hundreds and hundreds of pipes that are made in the effigies of animals and people. Some of them are carved out of hard stone, and they're beautifully polished. I have seen some of these that are a foot and a half tall, a pipe that's a foot and a half tall made out of stone. and it has a giant bowl in the front and then literally out of the back or sometimes the rear end is the hole for this for the uh where you put the stem in so you have the bowl in the front stem in the back

and what they were used for were in a ceremony where they would have a long wooden stem coming out of it really long so it would be right in the center they'd put a lot of their tobacco or other substances in that bowl and light it. And one person would take it and draw from it and then could literally twist the whole thing around and go around the circle so everybody could draw from it and they didn't have to remove the pipe at all. But there are a lot of those found. They found marble statues, beautiful marble statues

in American mounds. It's just, it's incredible. But people just don't know. this. Yeah, I want to ask you about these marble statues. So several of your photographs on Twitter that you've shared, I took screenshots of that I wanted to ask you about because it almost looks like, I mean, at first glance, you're looking at Mayan artifacts. Yeah, some of them. They love that way. I think there's the copper plates of Malden and Dunlund County, Cincinnati tablet, the Wilmington tablet. These look like they're Mayan artifacts. And then you've got the vault in the

Kurtz Mound you had a picture of that you showed and then what's called the Lucifer effigy pipe. Yeah. The head pod at Campbell's site looks almost like these demonic figures. But I mean, these are detailed figurines. There's the eight inch stone pipe. That was probably my favorite one you've showed recently where it showed a humanoid looking almost again, Mayan figurine with these huge earlobes. Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Is there a connection to the Maya in that sense? And how old do you think some of those artifacts are? And then again, tell us more about the marble statues. Well, okay. So in the 1980s and 90s, archaeology would call you a crackpot if you said there was any connection whatsoever between any of the Mexican cultures, ancient Mexican cultures. and those of Eastern North America or the mound builders. You would be laughed out of the room. They would call you a crackpot.

They love to use the term pseudo-archologists, which I'm not an archaeologist, therefore I can't be a pseudo-archologist. I talk about this and I post pictures and then I talk about what they say. Now, that has changed. This idea about the influence of Mexican cultures here has changed. What is known now,

is that it went two ways. Just like we now know that the hordes of people that they said came from Siberia across Beringia in roughly 10,000 BC, there were hordes of people that went from North America to Siberia at the same time. There were back and forth, and this has all been shown by fairly recent. genetics. So everything is changing. Okay, so Akamoggi in Georgia and there's a site in Florida called Crystal River. Crystal River is accepted by mainstream archaeology now is definitely having an influence from the Maya, whether or not it was a group of Mayans who came up here,

whether it was people from here. The Mayan culture is older than this mound building culture, is this particular mound building culture. So it's probably not true that mound builders went down there and influenced that. But it's accepted now that some came up. So we know they did it in Georgia. There are a couple places. Ettawa, Georgia is where some of these amazing, just amazing plates.

One of them is called the Rogan plates. And there's actually three of those. And you're right, they look mine. They're copper plates. They're about as large as my head. Copper plates, about from top to bottom of my head. And they're embossed, beautifully done. They usually show what's called Bird Man.

It is a warrior figure that is dressed like a bird, has lots of wings, has the forked eye. coming out of the eyes has very weird looking eyes, almost alien looking eyes. The forked eye, by the way, is an ogie symbol. That's why it looks weird for one thing, which the eye is a portal. That's supposedly some of the shamanistic idea associated with it. But yes, a lot of these sites now are accepted as having some sort of influence from the Mexican cultures, whether it's the Olmex, which were earlier than the Maya or the Maya, and it is thoroughly accepted. And the final nail in that coffin, knowing that it happened, is that the trade routes have been found now.

Trade artifacts went back and forth. Some of the stuff from North America wound up down in Mexico. Some of the stuff in Mexico wound up in North America. That is for certain. I want to make sure we've got enough time to, I want to ask you a little bit more about the giant stature of these elite ruling class, it sounds like of the mound builders and then portals. But before I get to that, what would you say is of all the research you've done, you know, what would be one of your most favorite mounds? And then what's one or two or three of the most amazing artifacts or weapons that you've come across that were discovered in a mound or strange? range. Okay. Well, I've never discovered anything in a mound, but I've seen a lot of artifacts, so that I'll mention. I don't dig. I don't collect any of that. Okay. So anyway, okay, so if you were going to see one mound in your lifetime, just one, you've got to go to one place. Newark, Ohio, got to go to Newark, Ohio. Absolutely. It'll, it just blow your mind. People got to see that. If you're going to go to two, if you're going to go to a second mound, then Cahokia, Illinois, go there.

Monks Mound, overwhelming. The third, I actually did a list. It was in a whole bunch of newspapers back in 2009 when I did the first issue of the mound encyclopedia. Newspapers ran some articles all over the country about the 10 most important mound sites you've got to see. So the third most important, I would say, is Moundville, Alabama. Moundville, Alabama. Incredible site. 20 pyramid-shaped mounds that have a truncated top.

around in a giant circle with a flat plaza area in the center, but right in the middle is another giant mound. That was the shaman's mound. The shaman did the stellar alignments. He'd come out at night and watch the movements of the stars up and down over other mounds. So that would be the third one, I would say, to go. And the rest has to do with how close you are, Ettawa, Georgia, very important site.

Akamoggi, Georgia, National Park. There are loads of smaller sites, but in the top five would be Poverty Point, Louisiana. Poverty Point, Louisiana dates to at least 2000 BC. Seems to have come from nowhere. It's an anomaly. That's what they've always said. Although now it probably dates to 35, 3,600 BC.

But Poverty Point has these, it's like a half an octagon, half an octagon formed out of eight lines of piled earth that people lived on. And it focuses upon a gigantic effigy of an eagle. The eagle is laying on its back with its wings spread out. from the top of the head of the eagle to the bottom of its tail is almost 800 feet. That is how big this is. And the wingspan is almost 600 feet. And the top of this bird is 72 feet tall. So it's like a seven-story building.

The last time we went there, we photographed over 200, kids gone up it. Just incredible. There are tiny little dots going up this 600 foot long pathway from where the tail ends up to close to the top of it. Just it's incredible. But it dates to about 3,500 BC. It's so hard to get to. It's in a very remote area in Louisiana, and it's very difficult to get to. So that's why I didn't say it first. Newark, Ohio is about 40 miles from Columbus, so it's pretty easy to get to. Some of the top three most fascinating artifacts or weapons ever discovered. Obviously, the marble statues out of Etowah, Georgia, they are no longer on display, by the way, and they may never be displayed again. So keep the photo you got. They've

closed the museum. This has all happened in the past few weeks. In fact, in the last two, days, there have been some very important and high-profile articles about the museum sites around the country, important museums, and even the Tennessee Valley Authority. They still have 100,000 skeletons that have, 100,000 is the total, that they have in storage. They once had millions, but they're still hoarding 100,000 that should have been returned to Native Americans, nearly 30 years ago, but they've kept them along with the burial artifacts, which they continued to display. But now the federal government has cracked down on all these places.

It includes Harvard, the University of California at Berkeley, the University of Tennessee. I mean, I could go on and on. Does this go back to the Nagproloss? Yes, yes. Okay, so that's why you're saying this, the... Can't see it anymore. Yeah, you can't see the... So even the artifacts.

that I referenced that had the big loopholes in the ears, that's the one that they're taking off the display cases? Yes. Anything that was found associated with burial mound cannot be displayed and had to be returned to Native Americans. So Etta was actually shut its museum. So has Cahokia. Cahokia and Etta was both had incredible museums. And they're both being shut right now for about a year. They call it for renovations. So they're going to renovate, but they are allowing the Native American groups and the tribes. to decide what artifacts are going to be displayed there. But they're not going to display any original artifacts anyway. So they'd already removed, Eta one knew they had to do this. They'd already removed the two marble statues that I told you about.

And the importance of the marble statues is this. They're the only two large ones that have been recovered. However, we know from the chronicles of Hernando de Soto, who traips through the southeastern United States and went to hundreds of mound sites, which he plundered back in 1539 to 1542. They found hundreds of statues at the temples at the mounds at the time.

But they couldn't carry them. They were too heavy. And, of course, it wasn't gold. DeSoto was here after gold and silver. That's the main thing. And he had got none. And unfortunately for him, he died along the way. But that's another story.

story. But the statues by far are the most incredible. And I have to say that I can't tell you there's just one piece of pottery. I've posted some pottery today on Twitter. The pottery that has been pulled from mounds, particularly in the 1800s by the Smithsonian and a fellow by the name of C.B. Moore, Clarence, Bloomfield, Moore, Moore himself destroyed 3,000 mounts, at least. Nobody knows for sure. because he'd say, I went to this site and there were five mounds and we flattened them. I went to another site and there were 30. We dug into about half, he would say that. And they just decimated them and nobody knows exactly.

But it's at least 3,000. And the Smithsonian destroyed at least 2,000 to 3,000 also. But they found millions of some of the most beautiful pottery imaginable. It's as nice as anything. found anywhere in the world. In fact, I've got, I've started to get a lot of international archaeologists that are watching the, you know, the Twitter feed. And they've never seen any of this. And they comment to me, really? This is America? We have no idea. They didn't know. Wow. So I just can't say. As far as weapons, I haven't seen any weapons that, that any of that. I will say that

there are some ceremonial artifacts that appear to be ceremonial weapons. There is a copper point that looks like a trident that had three points that I posted. It's about 25 inches long. One of the points was broken off, and that was recovered by C.B. Moore in a mound in Arkansas, and it's just a beautiful piece. But it's a trident. And it was put at the end of a pull. And the copper is just incredible on it.

But there were tens of millions of copper artifacts, literally tens of millions. And finally, there are these stone. They would look like weapons, but they couldn't have been used as weapons. They're called monolithic axes. And they are gigantic. they're 20, 30 inches long. They are beautifully made and polished. They have designs on them, and it's a single piece of stone.

And the reason I say they're ceremonial, they were always found with elite burials. If you actually hit something with it, it would fracture it. You couldn't use them for that. But they were used the same way that kings back in the very early days that we have that we know anything about history, kings carried these scepters and the sceptors showed that they wielded power. And when they passed along that power, they would literally pass along the scepter. So there are somewhere around 30 to 40 of these monolithic axes and then there are hundreds of smaller ones that we believe were used by the chief of some of the smaller

principalities like Cahokia had a bunch of other mound sites that they ruled. And each one of those would have had a chief of some kind. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know the same way you can skip an ad. I get it. I'm Ciaia and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today, I'm still figuring it out. Somehow, things usually get worse before they get better. Apparently, that's how I roll. So bundle up and come along for the bumpy ride.

Stream a new episode of North of North Tuesdays on CBC Gem. Wow, this is so fascinating. I just got, okay, so you're saying, I think you said the Tennessee State Valley Authority or something. TVA, the Tennessee Valley Authority that build all the... dams with the WPA back in the 1930s in Tennessee. So you're saying they still own hundreds of... Well, no way knows what they have. They have warehouses full of material that they've never even looked at.

In the 1930s, the TVA hired a whole bunch of people from the Works Progress Administration because it was during the Great Depression. So they hired hundreds of people and hundreds of archaeologists to go to the sites that were going to be inundated by the dams that they were. building. So they went to these sites in Tennessee, in Alabama, in Kentucky, bits of Ohio, and they dug into hundreds. I mean, they didn't dig into, they obliterated hundreds and hundreds of mouths. Now, this is considered the very beginning of modern archaeology and modern archaeology techniques. And I have put a lot of pictures from their work. I have loads of

old TVA pictures, but they recovered so much stuff and had nobody to look at it. They boxed it up and they shipped it to warehouses. When I started posting this, an archaeologist sent me a message and said, oh, I have been to the warehouses of the TVA. He said, they have so much in storage. They have no idea what's there, no idea whatsoever. And no one has ever looked at any of it. but they simply excavated it all and boxed it up.

That's the same thing that's occurred with Harvard and with the Smithsonian. They have so much, they don't even know what they have. So these warehouses are probably in Tennessee somewhere with all these artifacts, including skeletons, which I'm assuming some might measure seven to eight plus feet tall. You can't examine them. No one is allowed to look at them. But if you were to guess, wouldn't you say that there's probably seven? some that are seven. There are lots of reports. I found 17 reports made by the Smithsonian, where they

found skeletons and reported them in their journals seven to eight feet in height. And then there are a couple dozen reports made by some of the archaeologists who did the TVA expeditions and excavations where they found quite a few that are seven feet tall. They found a whole lot that are six feet, six foot five, loads of those, but I wasn't as interested in those. Seven foot is really a key marker. I'm glad you, I'm glad you bring up the Smithsonian because, yeah, they assert that there was no giants in the ancient world, but like you said, in their actual publications, they talk about at least seven footers, eight footers. They call them giants. And what are their publications? They say these are giants. Yeah, and I've collected many of the newspaper headlines from the late

1800s, early 1900s, from publications like the Scientific American New York Times that talk about, you know, they use the word giant. Yeah. Sometimes you see nine foot, 10 foot. Yeah, I don't know about that. I have yet to find, I got to be very honest here, I have yet to find a single original archaeological report that talks about anything over eight feet tall. Lots of them are seven to eight, but I haven't seen anything above that. I know where those reports come from. And I know there are a lot of the people that were hired by the Smithsonian to be the people who did the actual digging because far, you know, you've never seen,

today you won't see an archaeologist out with a shovel and doing the work. They hire people basically for minimum wage and go do the work. You talk about this amazing mound building culture that goes back. We're talking 11,000 years. The thing I find most fascinating is the elite rulers were likely these seven foot, eight foot type, what some would call giants. Yes. It seems like that's exactly what the book of Enoch, the Bible references Genesis 6,4, these hybrid type. You know, some would use the word Denisovins. Some would say this is a Nephleman ancestor.

But the point is these are some kind of hybrid ruling the masses, right? Yeah. And so do you think these giants were, were they the shamans? Well, that's a good question. I am pretty certain that they were the chiefs. They were the people who ruled. And when they came in, they had a technology. Again, I got to go back to Clovis.

They had certain skills and technology that the people who were already here simply did not have. And they were adapted as the ruling class. They became the rulers. And the remnants of their genetics is still in the Native American tribes today. It is still there. It's 3% of Native Americans carried denisian DNA. And that is more than any other group in the world that we know of, at least right now. And so, yeah, I think that they were the salutrians.

That was that culture. And I think that they were before that they were in parts of Asia. the Native Americans have mythology about these people, and they say these giants were, in fact, their rulers. And in Smithsonian publications, again, the Smithsonian, they talk about how they exterminated them. The Native Americans said that over time, this is not, I'm not making this up, but they said over time, these giant rulers became sexually depraved, and their demands of the people became so outrageous that the masses rose up against them and killed all of them.

That is in their mythology. The mythology is written down in Smithsonian Ethnography books, in the late 1800s through the 1930s, all of this is published in the Smithsonian books. Of course, mainstream archaeology will say, ah, it's just myths and legends, and the fact it's written down doesn't mean anything, and the facts that Native Americans even say the same thing today

in their legends that they believe it. It's not true. That's what they say. Does it go back to the biblical stuff? Maybe. and I argue over and over. I think that archaeology hates the idea that the word giants enters because there is a quote in the Bible that says there were giants in the earth in those days.

And there are skeptics and archaeologists who do not want to find one thing or say one thing that supports anything written in the Bible. That's what I believe. Yeah, even if you go back to what you said about this, the Denisovan cave in Siberia, I mean, that tooth that was found in there, if you measure that, the body that would have, that tooth would have belonged to would have been huge.

Yes, absolutely. I mean, so even, again, going back to Dinozova, you've got this tooth that you just can't deny the facts that this belonged to some massive statured ancient personal entity. Well, archaeologists, when this came out, Andrew Collins was the first to say that these people were extremely big. So immediately, he was attacked by a number of archaeologists, and they said, that's nonsense. There's no proof that they were big. Slowly but surely, information came out. And then the final straw was about a year and a half ago, genetics came out showing that they, in fact, the Deneasovans were in fact very, very tall and robust, which means that their strength and body size was in proportion to their height. They weren't tall, skinny people, is what I'm saying.

But they were very, very tall. So these, so I'm just imagining here 11,000 years ago, this vast mound building culture with these elite ruling class rulers that were possibly seven, eight feet tall. You've got inside these burial mounds, these stone chambers and foundations. You mentioned a little bit about portals, and you referenced, you know, some of the ceremonial stuff they were doing might have been to keep what was happening from getting out. Yeah, yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. We'll end with that. All right.

Well, there are, all right. So the reason I know some of this is because a lot of this information I got from an arrow priest to the Cheyenne tribe, who was ashamed. who wound up staying with my wife and I for 30 days. And during those 30 days, he shared a great deal of information. I got to hold the sacred arrows, which there are books written about him. He had the sacred arrows with them. And all that's another story. But he led me to the information where a lot of this is all written down.

So there were ceremonies where the shaman at very specific times of the year would gather together the tribal members to hold a ceremony. And one of the ceremonies that I've talked about at length is called the ceremony of the Massum. And in the ceremony of the Massum, it was designed to commune with God, literally, which they call Mahayo. It was made to do that. And there was a covenant between God and us.

The covenant was shown by looking at star alignments. There was a certain time of the year. And this all took place at the Big Horn Medicine Wheel in Wyoming, which I've been to. I don't want to get into describing it. But it's at a 10,000 foot level, no trees, beautiful view of the horizon. It's a stone wheel that has 28 spokes. You can look down the spokes and see certain stars. at specific times of the year.

So that was the timing mechanism, and that's where the covenant was made. So they would hold this ceremony. They would, the shaman would begin by removing the sod in an area, create an outer wall of earth. The sod is removed. In part of the ceremony, people would take whatever was on their feet off to have bare feet. And they literally grounded themselves in the soil.

And there's a reason for that. is to do, I think it's electromagnetic, but we don't have enough time to get into that. So they say in all the literature and the shaman and Native Americans that I know and have talked to at length and shared information with say that during these ceremonies there were literal physical manifestations of various levels of spiritual beings. and when you do these manifestations, some of them usually start out as a trickster or a negative force, the force of disorder.

And you cannot release the force of disorder to the world. So in order to contain the force of disorder or chaos, you can call it that, I call it entropy in the book. I redefine it as entropy because there's two forces constantly at play here. And all these ceremonies have to do. do with creating harmony with these two forces. So when this trickster appears first, you have to get by the trickster aspect to get to the deeper levels of spiritual knowledge to harmonize with it.

But if you don't have the barrier of earth around it, Earth is the most primordial spiritual substance there is. If you ever go to a ceremony, a true ceremony with a Native American shaman, they will purify themselves two ways. They will use dirt and they will put dirt on themselves and then they'll use tobacco. But the dirt is the first thing that they use. Dirt is the most primordial substance. So it stops the release of the negative disharmony spiritual forces or entities from that sacred space.

That's my explanation of that. And the sacred space also kept other things out. It was a way to control the harmonization with spiritual forces. You don't want something coming in that should. shouldn't be there and you don't want something going out that shouldn't be released. So do you believe the ancient mound builders when do you think they were actually seeing manifestations of entities through portals? Well, that is the question, isn't it? They swear up and down they have and I've talked to people that have seen this. There is a sort of new school of

thought on this and it involves, I'm sure you're familiar with ayahuasca and, you know, the psychedelic substance that Graham Hancock and others, you know, they go to South America and they'll go to a place and use it. And you see lots of beings and so on. Well, hyahuasca is in lots of plants in North America. That is not widely known. I don't want to make that widely known because I don't want people out there using stuff that can theoretically kill them because here the Native Americans mixed Iowa, the substances, different plants, but they have DMT in it, which is what's in ayahuasca. The DMT, they often mixed with the Tura, Jimsonweed.

And that is a very, very dangerous thing to experiment with. It can kill you. But we know that they were using these substances. I lean toward that these drugs are altering the perception. our visual and mental perception, which is usually confined to the visible light portion of the electromagnetic energy spectrum, we only see roughly 4.7%

of the electromagnetic spectrum, and we call it visible light. So there's 95.6% or 3% that we don't see. So the idea is, are there entities in there that are manifesting here? And do these drugs used in very specific ways, do they facilitate us to perceive these other entities? Carl Jung believed that that's what we were seeing, that it wasn't hallucinatory. And John Keel believed that's what we were seeing in both. of them were involved with entities involved with UFOs. Carl Jung's last book was about that.

That's what my first book was about, a follow-up to Carl Jung's last book. So I'm leaning now toward these drugs used the right way, alter our perceptions to such a point to where we can interact and perceive something that is real in its own sense. And it's in the electromagnetic energy spectrum. Sounds crazy to some people. I don't care. I've got both feet on the ground. That's all that matters. And everybody has some crazy ideas. But it's not crazy to me based on my knowledge. I wrote a textbook in psychopharmacology in 1997, a college textbook when I was teaching at LSU in psychopharmacology. It's not crazy to me. When you understand human perception, our whole body is an antenna. Our eyes have millions of antennas in the retina. They're the rods and the cones. They

pick up the light. They send that energy through electrical potential pathways to the back of the brain where it's picked up. But they're antennas. They're the exact same thing as a radio antenna. People don't know that, but that's absolutely true. That's what they are. But they're biological in nature. So yeah, that's it. I think that they are really perceiving something real. And we can, under some conditions, perceive those things. And usually when we perceive them and we're not prepared for it, it comes at a trickster form. And a trickster is a negative interaction. And almost all of the contactees in the 1940s, 50s and 60s interacted with a trickster.

How do we know that? Because a lot of the information they were given was untrue. Some of it was true. And every one of them was told, oh, you're killing yourself with nuclear weapons. You might do that, which, of course, we were. And we could have. But then they'd say, oh, by the way, I come from the planet Jupiter. The whole planet is inhabited.

There's cities all over. We know that's not true. Or they said, I live on Saturn. Or we live on the planet Mars. You know, the planet has got cities all over. And we know that's not true. So they were lied to. They were misled.

Wow. What an amazing interview, Greg. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for your time. There's a lot of areas. I mean, it goes into. a lot of stuff, but I've been in this a long, long time.

And the longer I'm in it, there's more pieces get pulled together. And I've said it's all a gigantic jigsaw puzzle. Everything is it. This is a huge jigsaw puzzle. The giants are one part of the puzzle. Some people get totally focused on the giants. Some of the statues are part of it. Some of the mounds are, were they connected to the Maya?

UFOs, the entities, the entities native, Americans saw about all of their rituals and so on their use of drugs it's a huge jigsaw puzzle so the older you get the more pieces you see a lot of people are you know they specialize in one piece of the puzzle and that's fine but you specialize in all of them i've started getting into all of them and it's interesting uh you get i'm 73 years old right now i've been around a long time in this uh so i've got some time left hopefully Well, thanks for, thank you so much for your, the time you've put into researching all these subjects and all the books you've written. I want to honor your time. What's the best way for

people to follow you, follow your work, stay up to date with everything you're doing, Greg? All I'll say is, just Google my name. It's Gregory L. Little. Put my middle initial in and you'll see a couple pages all me. Gregory L. Little, I'm there. Even my, uh, even my, uh, curriculum Vita is there on that first page. You'll see it. It's not up to date, but it's close. It doesn't have a couple of new books on it, but I'm not going to update it probably for another couple years. But I'm there. That's it. And thank you so much for this opportunity.