Megalithic Marvels - Inca Origins: Chakana bridge between earth & sky / Natalia Campana

Episode Date: November 16, 2023

For this interview I am joined by Peruvian tour guide Natalia Campana who was one of our tour guides on our recent Peru tour. As a native Peruvian and tour guide, Natalia shares her knowledge regarding the pre-inca and Inca civilizations. We start out talking about a few of the sites we visited on our tour, and then go deeper into the Inca origins and discussing the infamous Chakana symbol and its hidden meanings. SHOW NOTES⁠⁠ Follow Natalia on Instagram here Join us for our 2024 Peru/ Bolivia tour here

I think we're looking again at a lost technology. And it was this ancient apocalypse 12,800 years ago that wiped that from the human memory backs. Why were these ancient elongated, skull peoples or humanoids of Malta living underground? Now I believe we're talking prior to 9,700 BC for the original construction of the Sphinx. And they were what some people have called giants, probably known. more than seven to eight feet tall. And those giants have been pulled out of American mouths. Whether it's the colossal statue heads that have been on earth, to all the strange artifacts

you've been showing in the museums, to some of the strange features they seem to possess, the more I learn about the Omet culture, really the more fascinated I become. Derek Olson here to journey deep into histories, mysteries with you. And I'm really excited to be joined by a very special guest with me today. My guest is Natalia Campana. She's an explorer. She's a researcher, a teacher I just learned. But she was one of our Peruvian tour guides on our last Egypt tour.

And Natalia, I just want to thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you and to have this invitation on to be here. I'm really looking forward to some of these discussions we're going to get into regarding the many mystery. and legends and oral traditions regarding the mighty Inca empire and pre-Inca civilizations. But first, I just want to tell everybody,

so on our Peru tour here last month, Natalia was one of our tour guides, and she was our tour guide on kind of the first leg of the expedition when we were in Lima and then when we were in the North Coast. And I was just really impressed, Natalia, with your charisma. I was really impressed with your a depth of insight and knowledge regarding just all the ancient

Andean legends and cultures of Peru. So that was a great trip, wasn't it? It was great. I got this invitation to be part of the group, to be tour guiding. And it really, what is really fascinating, it was the meeting. telling that, okay, we come here with an open mind and we come here to learn all the not traditional history that we are kind of got used to and to hear. But I always say to people, be open it to everything, because everything is possible. And from that, no, we can really help each other

to understanding more and to go deeper. So, and I love the vibe of the group, no, and all of you, that they're very into questions and looking for and examine it. That it really makes me really, really happy. I'm very open to continue learning too. Yeah, I like how you referenced to that first initial meeting we had with the entire group where I kind of set the foundation with telling us. everybody, let go of your preconceived thoughts and be open to all theories, all evidence.

And I really liked that you were open to that as well. That was really cool. So I wanted to ask you first, you know, I learned on this trip again and Prue that becoming a licensed tour guide and Prue is a very rigorous, strict fang. And it requires a lot of education. So tell us a little bit about real quick, what led you to? want to become a licensed tour guide in Peru? Well, for me, I've always been fascinated since I was a little girl about traveling, about Asian history. I was at my eight years old going into big libraries in the times before internet, you know?

And so I have that spirit of really looking for more, but I didn't know that tour guiding was the way. So it was just a matter of circumstances, no, that I ended up in the tour guiding school. And, yes, study for four years. And then we specialize in a particular topic, no? In my case, after the years of study, I specialized in nature and also archaeology. So, but it is very strict. real government, they really take care a lot of the tourist industry and make sure that these national patrimonies are protected.

Yeah, they've really got, the government really has the tourism locked down in a sense to where you were saying you have to only be a tour guide in one region. You can't just be a tour guide in the whole country. It's either Kusco or it's Lima or it's in the south. Right? So right now you've been a tour guide, I think, in all parts, but right now you're focused on Lima, correct? It is correct. Well, I've always been an explorer. So I on one time I was tour guiding in the Amazon, no? And then I switched to Lima and then Kusko and then I'm back to Lima. So, which was great because it really gives you a very open window, let's say, of the different regions.

And then at the end, you're connected all of them, no. And this is what Peru is, is a combination of different traditions and history and living history, especially, with all the communities and tell us amazing stories. now? Natalia, where would you like to start out with this? I'll just kind of let you start with where you're going to take us on this because you know so much about these ancient Andian civilizations. Where do you want to start?

I got this feeling that when people visit us here, I know that we go very deep into the Inca history. And the Incas were completely amazing, as you saw, and all these constructions and ancient technology, no? But something that I want to share is that Peru is the result of more than

5,000, 10,000, and even we can go way beyond that of years of development. So that's why going into the Incas and then the people before Incas,

it can give us a better view of all these richness of Peru, no. That's why when we were here in Lima, no, we went to visit one of the oldest places in the world, no, and it was the oldest civilization in America called Karal, which is three, three and a half hours from Lima, no, and so we could understand that the long history of Peru and maybe going deeper into very old civilization, no? Way before times, no?

Yeah, I was so glad we went to Corral, or Corral, which you and some of the other guides were teaching us, it's, this is a spot that you drive a couple hours north of Lima. And, I mean, it's quite a drive. And it's in the middle of nowhere. And it's such a unique location. and if you're watching on YouTube right now or Spotify, you're going to see some photo and video footage of Keral so you know exactly what we're talking about.

But this is kind of a site that's barely untouched. A lot of people still don't know about it, but there's these massive pyramids that are as old as some of the dynastic Egyptian pyramids in Egypt, right? So tell us a little bit about Keral and the mysteries surrounding it because it's in such a weird desolate spot in a way that's deserty, but it's surrounded by mountains. It's literally like mountains on every side. Well, definitely, there must have been a reason why the Asian Peruvians, they chose that specific area.

Because if you notice, we need to be completely off-road. So, crossing a river, enter to a valley, and then arriving to this desertic area. And then this place is between the desert and already bordering the beginning of the Andes. So you are in this transition at altitude or geography now. And once you arrive to Karal, you see all of these hills, desert hills. And then we got the pyramid and the heart of the city. just in the center of these desert mountains. And so so far, Karal is very new.

Very new. It was discovered, well, discover it, scientifically discovered in 1994, by a Peruvian archaeology, Roots Shadi. So they've been working in Karal, no, in all this time. but it still be very little that we know. See? We, the archaeologists are finding all these pyramids and are completely connected with the solstice,

with the echinoxios as well, no? And it seems like each one of them, they practice in different rituals. It's presumed to be about 5,000 years old, right? And I think you said there was about at least six pyramids there, and the largest one is over 100 feet tall. So these are pretty big. I read somewhere that like in the early 1900s,

some of the original archaeologists that were there doing excavations of some pottery and stuff, they didn't even realize that the giant hills in front of them were buried pyramids, correct? It is correct. And it might sound crazy knowing that we are talking about this massive pyramids and nobody knew about it. But we need to also understanding the reality of Peru. See, in the last 100, 150 years, we didn't know much about the pre-Ira-Inca history. See?

And for many of us, many of the locals, like the local people that we met there, there were only ruins or there were only cover-red heels, no? So there was not much knowledge, no? And that's why for us, and I got this big feeling that while we are opening more knowledge, that it will help us, especially to us, to appreciate it more and to study more, because at the end is the local people who are the guards, no? the ones who will reserve those places. Yeah, and it's fascinating to consider that if this is 5,000 years old, I mean, this culture was thriving thousands of years before the Inca, right? So to your point, you know, when you get to Peru,

everyone's talking about the Inca and they were fascinating, but there's so much history before the Inca, like it, Carole. Another place I wanted to ask you about is you took us to the Larco Museum there in Lehman. which was just an incredibly beautiful museum. But what fascinated me the most were the sculptured ceramic bottleheads of the, was it the Mochika or the Moche people? Yes, yes. And if you're watching again on Spotify or YouTube,

you'll see these incredible detailed faces. But tell us a little bit about this culture and why were they making these heads like this? I mean, the features were so, they were like the features were from people from all over the world in Peru. It is. And this is one of my favorite rooms as well, no, because in this room, which is only, they call it a deposit. See? So they have more than 25,000 ceramics there. And the majority of them, or most of them are just portrait ceramics, no?

that is really going into a big gallery of the history of humankind, see? Because we really see all these characteristics, no? And also, it's very, very interesting to see the people before the big mixture that we have inside America. And they really can connect in us with other civilizations. around the world. A lot of the ancient, no, Peruvians, they were very looking, very similar to the Mongolian people. See?

And you really see them in their characteristics, no? And so, yes, I like to call it the first selfies. Because it seems like it. And they were very, very detailed by, even if someone have a scarf or one eye bigger than the other one, they want to make sure that they would represent that in the ceramic. In this Moche culture, didn't you say they arranged from like 100 to 800 AD? Is that kind of the time frame?

It is. It is correct. Yes. From 100 to 200 years after Christ, no? So we're talking about pretty much the same time of NASCA society, which is another big one here in Peru. So it seems like by that time was called like the golden age of Peru, because we got this very high developed civilizations, like the Moche in the north. The Lima people, which is the one of their main center was Hugiana, another place. that we visited in Lima,

Waka Pugia. And then in the south, we got the Naska people with the Naska lines, those big graphics in the desert, no? So they are all contemporaneous at the same time.

Tell us a little bit about Inca origins or even the pre-Inca origins and how it relates to what you know of Veracocha. It seems like everything points to Veracota coming from maybe the Lake Titicaca area. So tell us about your vast experience, everything you've read and studied on the origins of

the peoples who inhabited this amazing land. Yes. And I really invite a lot of all the people to really see that part of the history of the Incas. All the Vicarca legends, they are all connected. Viracocha for us is the God creator and a lot of the legends about the beginnings of the Inca's they're all pointing out to Viracocha. So, so Viracocha is not only from the Inca's time, say? Viracocha, when you see the art in the pre-Inca civilizations, you see Viracocha in most of their art. See? It's just changing a little bit, some characteristics,

but at the end, it's the same concept. And it seems like the evolution of this Viracoccha got through more than 5,000 years of history, see? And then during the Inga times, that we are talking about, the earliest 1400s, They've been saying that Viroccia was this very important god, the one that creates the universe, the moon, all the stars, and everything that we know. And then with all this creation, he used to blow to the stones and creating things. And then it talks a lot about Vicarcha creating giants. a giant, but it seems like he didn't work as it was planned, no?

And then after that, he destroyed the giants with a big diluvial, you know, water going and then that was one, yeah, a big flood, no? And then after that, no, he started all over again, but already with humans. see so he started to teach people about engineering about technology about organization so he was with the people for a time and according to the legend he moved to the Pacifico see and then after that we don't know what happened

but it seems like he went to the sky see and it's very interesting because when you see, like for example in the Largo Museum, we really see the same legend, but with another name. We got Nailam, it's another god in one of the Pre-Inga cultures, and he got the same story, being someone on Earth and then disappearing in the Pacifico. See? So, for me, they study all these civilizations, definitely there is something that is clicking and it says, this is not a coincidence, no? There are some connections over there.

And so that's one of the legends of the creation of the Incas, no? So when he destroyed the giants and they start the first couple of the Inca, the royal couple called Manco Capac and Mama Oggio, they emerge. They start from the lake of the caca, from the deepest waters of the Lady Ticaca, and then they went to looking for lower lands in a 13 valley. That's how they arrived to the valley of Cusco. And this is where this all starts. It's interesting how so much of those Andean legends...

are similar to kind of what the Bible describes too. Yes, yes. I agree. The creator, God, a flood, giants, giants get wiped out, restart with humans. And yeah, it's so interesting because don't a lot of the Quechuan legends speak of even giants, possibly building some of these walls? they are in some

but they are not so popular on this on the tails of the local people they are more related to Viracocha and the and the sun the moon but you really can tell that there might be some relationship with that too we are not

South American cultures we are not the only ones. Also, you find this very similar story in Mesoamerica, like Mayas, Aztecs, no? They got some stories like that, too. When I went to Prue this last time, I came away with a new sense of just how these ancients were so holistic. They knew all about the earth. I mean, they knew more about the created earth than I think we do today. They knew all about the ingredients and and even in these megalithic walls are hidden these anthropomorphic zoonorphic figures of pumas and serpents and they the ancients really held the mountains to be sacred correct and it seems like the the machu Picchu mountain is the most sacred is that

accurate yes well Machu Picchu it was one of the most important for sure. But I'm sure that a lot of them, they were all very well connected, no? And it's true. This is something that for thousands of years, people have been observing nature. And by observing nature, we considerating nature not like a resource. We considerating like a living being, see? So going into that concept, we created a very beautiful way of preserving, talking to the mountains,

talking to Batchamama, Mother Nature. And going into that concept to all the temples, as you saw, they have this harmony, no, with nature. And it seems like, A lot of the temples, yes, they were for praying and connecting, but also I believe they got some healing centers, say? And because you really see it.

Once you are in there, they're all connected and align with the sun, with the moon, the air. So very, very well done. not only the constructions, especially the locations. One thing I really was learning about on this trip was the legend of Hanan Pacha or the three worlds. Do you know anything about that? And so let me set this up and then you can kind of tell me if I'm wrong or you can add to it. But the legend of the Hanan Pacha basically means there's three worlds.

and the Hanan Pacha is the, it's like 3D. They're the first culture who many believed shaped the bedrock and engineered the biggest cyclopean walls. And then you've got the Uronpacha who came along later. And they're also called, I think, the Sapa Rumi, and they were like the second culture who might have engineered smaller-sized megalis like at Machu Picchu or the foundations. and then you've got the Ucanpacha, who might have been like the Wari and the Inca, who would have come along much later and built on top of the previous two older cultures.

Well, yes, I heard about that legend also, no? And the three words are very present in our culture. And the way how they interacted and they hope us for the construction of a lot of places, no? And as you will describe it, you got the word of, the upper word, as we call it, the Hanapacha, then this one, the present word, the Kaipacha, and the Ukupacha, the word of the dead. And they're all connected to one another, no?

And it seems like during the different ceremonies, they could connect it with those three words, no, and helps them for giving the answers for construction or also astronomical studies. And I want to add something to that. We representing animals in the three words, see? Right. Like the word of the gods is represented by the condor. The word of humans by cats like the jawa or puma. And then the word of the deaths by the serpents. And one of my points is you got the birds, you got the felines, and then you got the serpents.

They're all connected in this big circle that it makes the three words. So when we go into study other civilizations, we are not that far from that too. Right? So we got Egyptians, no? There were big observers and lovers of felines. We got to the Mayas with the eagles, the serpents. Then I can name so many of them. Asian Greeks, Romans.

And, ooh, India, even the Chinese dragon. So many people believe that the dragon, it only belongs to China. That's not true. You see dragons in Mesoamerica. You see dragons in Peru. And the dragon is the mix of the three animals. So you got this, you know, this face of a cat, body of a snake, which flies. So, and somehow they're all representing over there.

So, I don't know, I just leaving there like this. I planting the seat to see where God can take us. No, that's great. It's fascinating how, like they say, these are like living stones. It's not just a big giant wall. It's a big giant wall that has been incredibly engineered. But then inside these walls are hidden these pictograms, like at the Inka Roka wall is the, I think there's a Puma in that wall. And then at Soxaywaman, there's the massive Puma paw.

And then at Soxanuman, there's the serpent. And so literally the three worlds, that just to me is so mind-blowing. It's not just three different civilizations, possibly, but it's three levels of consciousness, all represented by these three animals that are embedded everywhere. And even like at the gate of the sun at Ojante Tambo, I mean, there's what looks like massive puma faces that used to be on that, that were, you know, since chiseled off. So so much we could talk about, is there a favorite? Is there any other favorite legends you have of the pre-Inca's or the Incas that you want to share?

Well, the one that I was describing to you about Vicarcha, it's really, it really fascinates me. And, you know, legends always come from a fact. I always say that. So it's just that with the past of the centuries, we added more than mythological and the magical aspects. but definitely it comes from a true story. And that's why whenever I go deeper into the Vicarcha legend, and they said, no, all the beginnings and the late Ticaca, so you hit that, Lady Ticaca.

So, okay, where it takes us? When you visit that part, which is bordered with Bolivia, which is Bolivia is also fantastic, no? You got the Tijuana civilization there, so all that part is one of the oldest parts of South America, in terms of ancestral history.

So, Bira Kordcha talks a lot about the late Tidaka. And then, not so far away or not so long ago, they did some studies. I think it was the Pennsylvania University and one other one in Brussels. They did some studies.

They went deep in some part of the Lake Ticaca. And they've been finding a basals. They've been finding, they found remains of an Asian civilization in the deepest water of the Lake Ticaca. And then you go a little bit in the surroundings of the Lady Ticaca. And there was a place. where there are, it seems like, of some portals, we call it sacred portales, no, where people used to be connected. And then you connected with Viracocha, and it seems to me that there is something over there to really continue looking for it, say?

That they take back at water, it's, I mean, it's amazing. Yeah, there is so much regarding legends of point. portals around that area. What can you tell us about Amaru-Muru and the legends of the portal there? Isn't there a legend where a guy actually went through it with a sundisk? Yes. Well, I heard about that. I haven't been there yet. I'm going very soon. For some reason, we are talking about this because it's really awaking me the desire to go there very soon. I can hear a lot of stories, but I need to feel it. I need to. open in my mind and see what is happening there.

But it definitely is connected to the remains in the bottom of the Lady DiGyaka. I'm very sure about that. So when the Inca arrive, they worshipped many gods, but like you said, Viracocha was their primary creator deity, correct? Yes, see. And the Inca, the crazy thing is, they only lasted, what was it, about 100 years? Yeah, 100, 130 or 140 years so far as what we know. Yeah, and there was only about six total Inca emperors that I think I remember.

Each emperor was known as the Sapa Inca or the only emperor. And so tell us what you know about the Inca Empire and what amazes you most about them? Yes, something that is really fascinated about, the Incas is that they took the best of all the people before them. And so they were a very big collector of knowledge. And that's why for me is one of the explanation why in such a short time, they did all the amazing things that we see now, see? And well, compared to other pre-Inca societies,

it took for them 300, 400, 700, 700. hundred years, you know, they had a very long process. But the Incas, in a very short period of time, they were built in places like Matu Bichu,

no? They were building places, like Sykeh, like Sywa Man, you know, completing also of what people did before, so they completed,

you know, and they were all in the process of construction and very high technology. When we say the word Inca, that doesn't just refer to the general population, right? Doesn't it really refers to the ruling class? See, and this is something that later on during the colonial time, the real name of the civilization was lost, see?

Because as you said that Inca was only the king, no? Let's put it, or the Sapa Inca, no? if we compare it to Europe, would be a king, the main royalty. But the real name, I'm going to say it in Ketra, which is the native language in Peru.

The real name was called Tawan Tinsuyo. Tawan Tinsuyo. It's a long name, but the meaning of that name is Tawa means four, no? TIN is abbreviation of sand. And sujo means regions.

So if we put together the four regions of the sun, no. And so they were, they were call it like this, no? And later on during the Spanish times, they name it Inca to everyone. So, and yes, they were really amazing, no, by collecting all the knowledge of people before them. something that is very beautiful once you visit the Inca size, it's the amazing energy than those sides have. And there is some beautiful, it's very peaceful. They're healing centers. They're healing centers for sure. So it must be something with the vibration. You know, everything is moving by sounds, no?

resonance of everything. So I believe that many of those places where by vibration there were healing people and you really feel it. We can't see it. Energy is something that we cannot see, but we can feel. So you feel it there. Same thing in Egypt. You know, all of these ancient Egyptian temples were basically healing or fertility centers.

and at some points you can you can definitely feel energy we had a couple of people on our last Egypt tour that felt energy so strong there was a doctor on our tour and she's into holistic medicine

she felt energy so strong at Isis temple she had to literally leave because it was so powerful her body couldn't handle it I was like wow and then I might have shared on a previous episode. I'm not a guy that feels a whole lot, but when I was in the so-called King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid this last time,

our guide was resonating the chamber, and it was getting louder and louder. And I felt like it was, I don't know if you've ever had that laughing gas at the dentist, the gas that makes you kind of just real peaceful. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. That's what it felt like. It was just like, whoa.

It's really interesting what you're saying, because there must be a reason, no, why all of these are connected. And there must be a reason why, no matter where we wear at that time, South America, Egypt, Mesoamerica, no? We ended up doing the same thing. Who knows that maybe we were connected

by this magnetic resonance. And we were healing centers all around the world, no? And the ancient civilizations, they have, they figuring out some, some of these technology that modern medicine are trying to figure now right now, no?

Because definitely you feel it. And so I'm trying to think, how can we decodify that to know? Speaking of energy, one thing that really hit home on this last Peru trip was that at a lot of the, at most of these sites, at the oldest parts of the sites that might be Pree-enka are these, what are they called these Intuantanas the kind of in the shape of the Andean cross the Intuantanas like at

Machu Picch who's got the most famous one but then I think we saw one at Pisac and several other sites and it's almost like Rumi our other guide was theorizing these Intuantanas might have acted kind of like an obelisk in Egypt that is

like an antenna pulling down the energy to this site. What are your thoughts on that? I want to show you something. Can you see? Yeah. I think we are talking about the same, right? Yep. This is a sacred symbol for us.

But you can also see some similarities in other civilizations, but it's very present here in Peru, which is the Chakana, no? Chakana, it means. portal, say, or a stair to the most elevate if we want another interpretation. And we already know that when we are into those temples, no, in any circle place, and if we see a Chakana, that place, something happened in there, see? and perhaps was a place of special rituals, a portal, or a way of connecting for elevating consciousness, you know?

And yes, so this symbol is very powerful. And even in Machu Picchu, there is one area that only you see half of this, no, on the ground. but then you have three windows, no? And then during the winter solstice, the sunlight entering, and then it completes the other half with a shadow. See? So I always said to people, what do you think is the other side? Underground?

I said, uh-uh. Wait until the winter solstice to see them complete, no? So you really see this connection between Earth and the cosmos and how the Chakana was the bridge for connecting both. So that's why it is fascinated. But isn't the other name for that, the Andean cross too? Yes, well, we call it the Cruzandina, no? The Indian cross, no? And then the word that we know the most is Chakana, no?

Which was probably the Inca word. Uh-huh. See, it is an Inca word. So some people, there's so many interpretations of the Chakana. You can see them maybe connected to the Southern Cross Constellation. Also, if you see, it has like three. One, two, three, one, two, three, one, two, three, and then you got a center. So we're talking about the three words previously, right? Right. Wow. one, two, three, one, two, three. And then you got something that connects everything, which is the one in the middle. So it could be many, many interpretations there, also connected with the solar calendar,

the equinoxios, and, oof. And that's why it's a very powerful symbol for us. Yeah, and that symbol is one of the most ancient symbols of the region. It way predates the Inca, correct? It is correct. Yeah. And we are more familiar with the Incas with the Chakana, because this is where you see them in the Inca sites.

But once we go into this not so popular, or maybe we are still working, not excavating on the other sides, we can see that this symbol existed even in times before Christ by the time of perhaps feral, no? not so long ago, like four months ago, archaeologists in Peruvian University, they found the biggest chakana so far known in just four hours from Lima

on the way to Karal, in some parts over there. So four months ago, that's nothing, no? Yeah, and we were actually supposed to go see that, but we ran out of time. I was so bummed on our tour. It was, it was, it's still be a difficult place to get there. When people ask me, Natalia, how, how is Peru? It's like, okay, ready for the adventure, eh?

Because as you saw, we went into some farms, we went to some cornfields and communities. and the cars are like boom boom boom boom boom no and because well still be one of the few places around the world that you got the luxury to experience something like this to really feel that adventure yeah I love what you just shared about the chinkana because really it's such a fascinating place the history is so deep in Peru and Kusko and with the Inca and the pre-Inca because that symbol, that chinkana, it's literally embedded everywhere. You see it at every temple.

I love that you reminded me. It basically symbolizes a portal. But like you said, it also, it's symbolic of that Hanan Pacha, the three worlds, the three levels of consciousness. It's all symbolic. And like what you said, when the solstice, hits, what is it, June 13th? June 21st.

June 21st. When that solstice hits, you can literally see the shadows beaming off these ancient megalithic symbols. Like she said, you'll see a part of it above ground, but then the shadow makes the other part revealed. And you realize, okay, wow. These people had, they had an amazing astronomical knowledge, right? Yeah. Can you imagine being, because this is Machu Picchu, this place that I'm describing,

with Chicana. And imagine being in Machu Picchu at that time, and they are waiting for the exactly hour where the sun hits and completely sacred symbol, no? So definitely that was a big feeling. And that's how they were all connected with the three words, no, and doing the ceremonies for healing or connecting, talking, understanding the cosmos and the universe, no, it's this deep knowledge of that, nature and universe. Yeah, Atta Walpah, I think he ruled about 1532, and he was kind of like the last official Inca emperor. And like you said, that's when the Spanish came to the Kusko area to take over. And Atalpa had heard all the legends of Viracocha returning one day from the sea. And didn't some of the legends, though, state that like Viracocha had kind of like white skin? So when the Spanish arrived with white skin, they thought these are the gods?

Yeah, yeah, that's true. And that was back in the 17th century. This is where all these Spanish chronics, they wrote all these stories. And they described by collecting this legend from the communities at that time. And they described Viragocha with those characteristics. They were not very much like the way how we look. that's why at a while

knowing that there were some foreigners or some strange people let's say looking very different to us because if you see paintings of the Spaniards of those times

of course they are completely different to us even they have this big mustache right and big beards that if you see native people people, we are hurless. See, we don't have that genetic characteristic, no? This is a characteristic of many of us.

You see the men's in the communities? They don't have mustache or bears. It's crazy. It's genetica. And Europeans, they did. They did and they do, no? So that's why Atalpa was, I believe, very into knowing these people.

That's why the meeting was set, no? And that's why the Spanish were able to, like you said, conquer the Inca so easily was, because the Spanish just had a couple hundred soldiers, if my memory serves me right, the Inca had thousands upon thousands, yet the Spanish just walked right in because they were welcomed, right?

Yes. Yes. It's pretty much, it was pretty much like that, no? When the news of the New War hits Europe, there were thousands of people adventuring to do this expedition. But not many of them made it. Like hundreds of them, they died on the way. Some of them, they just went back to Europe, no? And there were just a small group arriving, no? And that's why, because of the circumstances were like this, no, at the Walpasat, a meeting.

Then by surprise, the Spaniards attacked and took him as a prisoner. And that's how the Incas or the civilization, all the people, they want to save their ruler. So they opened the doors to the Spaniards, no? and so it was all this strategy, I believe, but also the legends, I think they did a big part of this other chapter of Peru, no? Yeah. Well, Natalia, this has been an amazing interview with you. So great to see you again. Oh, thanks for making the time.

How can viewers and listeners follow you if they want to keep up to date with what you, you're doing. Are you on social media? Yes, I am in social media and not on road. I will leave you, no? So they can check on my

page. Instagram. Yes, yes, it's correct. And yes, so I am sure my traveling's there, also my reflections and and you know, I

am also want to know more. So I think it's something that connecting with you and with all of you know, because we have that feeling that something is coming up. So yeah. And we want

to be part of it too. If you're on Instagram, look for Natalia. Her handle is Nat underscore on road. So N-A-T- underscore O-N-R-A-D. Follow her for, she's got a lot

great photos, videos, and more information to learn about the amazing Inca Empire and the pre-Inca cultures of Peru. So Natalia, thanks again so much. And oh, I got to tell everybody to join us next year for our Peru and Bolivia tour. It's going to be August 1st through the 12th. And you might get to meet Natalia. We'll find out. At this point, I don't know who all our guides will be, but it would be so awesome to have you back. And so you can go to Ancient Expedition.org slash tours to get all the information on that tour.

We're going to go to Bolivia. We're going to go to Tijuanaaku, Puma Punku, and then we're going to go up to Peru and hit Machu Picchu and all the amazing sites there. So hope you can join us. And Natalia, thanks again so much and have a great day. Thank you, Derek. And, well, thank you for the invitation.

It's a pleasure.