Megalithic Marvels - Lost Technology of the Maya / Cliff Dunning

Episode Date: June 4, 2024

In this exclusive interview I am joined by author, researcher, explorer, Mayanist and host of the Earth Ancients podcast Cliff Dunning. The episode starts out with me asking Cliff to preview his upcoming tour to Turkey where he will visit Gobekli Tepe, Karahan Tepe and many more ancient sites. Having just returned from his annual Egypt expedition, Cliff then shares with us his highlights from this adventure, and we get into a brief discussion about the colossal prediluvian statues of Egypt, as well as the unfortunate suppression of critical thought and exploration in Egypt. The bulk of the show is dedicated to the amazing Maya civilization. Do the Maya go back much further into history than we've been told? Did the Maya possess lost technology that enabled them to build mesmerizing pyramids, harness the energy of the earth and even... take to flight? Mayanist Cliff Dunning breaks it all down in this must see episode for every history lover! FOLLOW CLIFF HERE JOIN US FOR OUR 2024 PERU/BOLIVIA TOUR HERE

Stargate Voyager. Well, it is great to have my friend Cliff Dunning back on the show for another episode, the host of Earth Ancients podcast. He's an author, explorer researcher. He's in Egypt often. Mexico. He's a Mayanist. You've got a future trip coming up to Turkey.

So, man, tell us about your turkey trip. Give that a plug real quick. We're actually guinea pigs for a new tour that, uh, Sabah Tours is designed and this is Muhammad Embrahim who we've been with for five years in Egypt but he's been working with a a archaeologist in Turkey trying to put together a tour for his regulars like me and like you who've been with him for a few years now and so he has put together a two-week tour where we start off in Istanbul We see a number of major museums, but we get to see Deren Kuru, the underground city,

Kapidotia, a number of the sites there. And most importantly, Quebecli Tepe, and we just added Karahan Tepe. Now, these are the oldest temples in the world, which are in Turkey. So we're looking forward to it. It's going to be in August, August 14th of the 24th. and I don't know what to expect. I'm very excited, though, because Turkey has just very, very old sites, very, very old ruins, which I'm all about. And so, yeah, so it's a first timer, we'll be the very first ones out of the gate.

And he's adding it to his offering. Very cool. So people, if they're interested, can go to, is it earthancients.com to get all the info? Earthancients.com forward slash tours, T-O-U-R-S, the full itineraries there. We keep evolving the itinerary because I'll look at a site we're going to. And I'm all, I'm like you, I'm all about the megalist, the gigantic monolithic sculptures. And apparently there's a lot of unknown sculptures that are either what they call in situ, which means they're not completely extracted from the quarry, or they've fallen.

during an earthquake and they've just been discovered, or there's an excavation site that has unveiled something that we want to know about. So the beauty of working with Muhammad Embrahim and Sabah tours is that they're kind of flowing, evolving, and our itineraries are not necessarily completely fixed. They're evolving as new material comes up. I mean, that's going to be a great tour. There's so much that's being uncovered, it seems like, almost weakly in Turkey, so much unknown, so much still buried.

I would love to get to Karahun-Tepi someday and see that enclosure with the serpentine face sticking out of the wall. That's my favorite thing I think I've seen there. Have you seen the 15 or the 12-foot tall figures at Karahit-Tepi? Yeah, those are awesome too. Yeah, very unusual. Very humanoid looking too, right? very humanoid looking but it seems to me and it feels like these are artisans who are not true artisans

they're just trying to interpret man or the goddess or the representation of human beings that aren't as elegant as the great Egyptian pharaonic sculptors who cut stone with such elegance. It's a whole different phase. Everyone keeps saying it's kind of a reboot. In other words, after this big devastation, the people who are left are

very, they're just very basic, very startup, they're in startup mode. And so there's not the great elegance we see. And that's what a lot of people are like, wait, it's 12,500 years old. Whereas are the artists?

Well, who knows? know. So yeah, Carahan-Tepi is very cool. I saw some photos Hugh Newman had posted of this underground. It was almost like a megalithic subway where they were in this tunnel. I don't know if you've seen these photos, but I can send them to you because it would be something I would want to see if I was going to Turkey. But it was just the most random obscure thing where they go inside this, you know, basically this cave in the ground. And once they're underneath it opens up, into like a precision laced tunnel that goes into a funnel and you can see just the megalithic shaping.

So stuff like that, just under the ground. What a great tour that's going to be. But you were just in Egypt. So I know you've been there several times leading tours. And any highlights or great takeaways from your latest trip or something new that hit you that you didn't see before? I've glad you mentioned that. So I just posted some new photos on Facebook of this,

it's the right next to the Colossus of Memnon, these two new statues that have been worked on for a number of years. I didn't know that they had released them in 2014 because we never got a chance to see them. But they added a new entrance road. and these are true megalis. In fact, I posted a photo of one of them next to the bus, so the bus is just dwarfed.

And the thing's 42 feet high, each of them weighs 110 tons, and they are very hard sandstone, I believe. But there's just no way that these are from a period of time. And Muhammad is always bringing this up, that many of the statues are repurposed by the various pharaohs, you know, and Ramsey's I seconds is noted for putting his cartouche on a number of statues around the world, around the Egypt.

And we see this with this one. There's not a necessary focal point of a cartouche, but it's considered, I think it's in a hobtop. I am saying it wrong. the third, who is the represented Pharaoh. But his name is not anywhere around there. It's likely that they found these monolithic statues and decided to place them there after they were uncovered.

I mean, you saw them. They're just huge. And that's one of my favorites new sites is that, those statuary. Yeah. We get to drive by those. too and I was just blown away as well, just larger than life. You guys were smart though. You got up and went beyond the barrier and walked right up to the feet. And I didn't do that. I didn't have the Cajonis to do that. But that's really what you want to do is get real close to it. And I think

you took one or two photos of somebody standing right next to it, right? Yeah. Yeah. And you can always tell these, as Muhammad, our guide would say, the prediluvian statues versus the dynastic ones, is look at the feet. You know, we got up close to those toes. And I had a guy pointing at the lines between the toes. And again, these are very ancient and weathered, but you still see the precision cuts. Yeah.

And the follicles. It's nuts. Our big problem with identifying these is that, and this is what I'm focusing on in this new book, the Maii controversy, is that because we have science that looks at things Newtonial-based, and they have Newtonian physics,

we can't reproduce what happened, how they were cut. And so most orthodoxy pooh-poo's the idea that they were from a prediluvian culture and can't go beyond a timeline because they can't conceive of anything before five or six thousand years. But you have to. You have to go beyond, you have to consider other physics. other sciences. And as we begin developing technology that can perceive the energy that cut these things, that shape them, that's where we began having really major breakthroughs.

And this is where Chris Dunn comes in with his books on the pyramids and many other researchers that are kind of helping us understand that the pharaonic period wasn't the period where these megalists were carved. They just found them. They, I mean, you know, there was this big deluge, this big asteroid hit, wiped the planet clean 12,500 years ago. And then as civilization regrouped and developed and the pre-dynastic, and then the dynastic periods came around,

those objects were there. Hathor Temple was there, the pyramids were there, these monstrosities were there. And the pharaohs were like, well, okay, it kind of looks like me. I'm going to put my cartouche on it, which is kind of weird, but I think that's the answer, you know. Yeah, the statues, these megalithic, prediluvian, golden age, whatever you want to call them statues, they've really become, I think my favorite thing about going to Egypt, because you've got the pyramids, which are like these ancient energy generators. You've got these megalithic temples,

but then you've got these statues cut from one solid piece, like you're saying, of either sandstone, sometimes granite, hard stone. And these are, we're talking 1,000 tons, 2,000 tons. But you can also see microscopic details in them as well. When you look at the belts and like the one at the Egyptian Museum

when you walk in the door, it's like the laser cuts through the toes in same detail and the fact that these statues are giving us a glimpse of what these ancients looked like is the coolest part to me so yeah I mean there's a famous statue that's still at the Cairo Museum

I think it's still on the first floor I think it's if it's Kufu or Kephrin That's a solid piece of green agate. And it is, Muhammad believes, it's a representative of man. And he's sitting in this throne. And I did a test that Chris Dunn did, which is that you do a mirror test.

You photograph the whole piece, and then you cut it in half, and you flip it on either side, and you combine the two halves. And they're literally the same, the eye, the nose, the mouth, the ear, left side, the right side. So this is not a person of any known history. It's representing mankind. And I didn't realize just until Muhammad was pointing out the details, but it's the most elegantly designed or machined statue in the whole Cairo Museum.

Next time I go to Egypt, I want to try to have a whole day dedicated just to that museum. Because you could spend literally weeks in there. And I always feel so rushed. And I'm tired of being rushed. I just want to go on every floor. And I just want to read and photo everything. And it's like when you go into that one room, I think you've seen it where I think it's a statue of Kufu. It's like one of the small statues in the world.

Yeah, a little tiny one. It's like that big, right? Yeah. Now, the hilarious part is if my memory serves me right, according to what Muhammad said, now this is the guy that gets credit for building the Great Pyramid, right? 2,600 BC or something. Yet the only statue we have of him is this big. I know.

And that alone is nuts. If this was truly the builder of the Great Pyramid, we should see the most colossal statues of this guy. Right. But we have one that's not even inch tall. I know. What's going to happen when the Grand Egyptian Tour, a Grand Egyptian Museum opens up, and there's a million artifacts that have never been seen before.

You're going to have to spend two days on the tour going in it. Because it's equal, it's 500,000 square feet. That's equal to five football fields. I mean, you're just going to have to take very, sections and visit them. But one of the funny things about that museum that Muhammad was discussing, because I was telling him how frustrated, I mean, they're now almost eight years beyond the specific opening date, and they keep delaying, delaying, delaying.

One of the things that he brought up is the possibility that they've discovered artifacts that are anomalous to the degree that were questioning history. and if that's true, well, maybe they need to get rid of those artifacts, put them underneath in the basement or something. But this is one of the big delays is that there's very, very anomalous artifacts that are people holding technology, perhaps a piece of technology that's been cut. I don't know if you've seen the research that is being done on some of these bowls that are perfectly cut in vases and things. things. The new thinking on some of that is that they are parts of technology because the level of precision is almost aerodynamic. So maybe they were placed in a machine of some kind. And they're not

for home use. They're for technology use. And that's a whole new range of thought that's coming out of those bowls and that other material. So if it's true that the Great Museum is, being delayed. I wish they'd hurry up because, boy, they've spent a billion dollars on it already. Come on. Let's see what's going on there. That is insane. Yeah, that will be an amazing experience to go into that. And I assume they're going to close the old Egyptian museum, right, and just transfer everything. Apparently, they're leaving it open as kind of a secondary museum. I mean, like every, you know, Abidos has a little museum, Sakara has a little museum. So apparently they're going to leave it open and allow people to see what they have there.

Oh, I know what they're going to do. They're going to keep some of the King Tuts material there. Okay. Do you have his chance to see his death mask? I did. Yep. And of course, they're like flies on you if you try to snap a photo. No photos on that.

And they scream at you if you stand in front of it too long, which I think is a big mistake. and also very, very, I think, shocking when you have some guys screaming at you to keep moving. But they're really, bless their hearts, they're really in need of some support from organizations or different countries who are specialists at these museum exhibits. because it would be wonderful if we had a sign out before you enter that space that said, no photographs, just keep moving. And we don't recommend this or that kind of behavior rather than having somebody screaming at you, which is almost childlike in a way, like you're a kid. So anyhow.

Yeah, it's total disorganization. There's no, like you said, no information or rules as you enter, and then they've got one guy screaming in there, patrolling. But yeah, man, I hope that Egypt doesn't get too locked down, as we were talking about before this show, like our visit inside the Great Pyramid this year was definitely much more strict than the last year. This year, only I was allowed to bring in my phone. everybody else couldn't bring him in that was with our own tour guides

rules but then the the Egyptologist that was shadowing us he was super strict in the king's chamber I mean he didn't want a photo of anything that looked basically spiritual or meditative it was just you have to look very normal yeah which is

it's become a problem so this is fundamental religion bleeding into every day life. If it mocks, like, we can't tone, we used to be able to go there and meditate. Right. Some people might do some toning, which is outward humming or modulated breathing that makes noise. They get very upset about that. And it shouldn't, why are you so sensitive? What's the problem? People want to tone. People want to meditate. Well, that's out the window now. and it's becoming more strict and I think it's going to hurt their abilities to attract various crowds, various people who want to come there who can actually sense subtle

toleric energy and want to work with it, modulate it through their bodies, which is what toning is. And so for them to restrict that is just another negative for traveling to Egypt. Well, it's kind of sad. Well, let's talk Mayans. You are a Mayanist, and you've done years of research, and you've got a book coming up that you've got to tell us about, too. So let's start there with your book. The book's called The Maya Controversy.

I've been traveling to Mexico and visiting Mayans sites since 1995 at the invitation of a Mayan elder. and it's all about my perspective of what is happening here, the subtle energy that's part of these cities, and how orthodoxy is missing a whole body of information because they can't see it. And it has to do with the fact that most archaeologists are trained in Newtonian science, which is if you can't reproduce it, you can't test it, then it doesn't exist. And we're really fortunate that about 15 years ago, a scientist named John Burke was testing ancient sites using the latest equipment to pick up subtle energy. And he was testing certain various sites in the United States.

He went to the Great Pyramid, tested that area. And he had heard that a number of Mayan pyramids were actually used for crop enhancement. And one of the most well known was a site to call Guatemala, known as the World Pyramid. And he actually went to the World Pyramid and tested it early in the morning. And he's all about seed propagation, seed growth. And so he took corn seeds and put him up on the very top. And from 3 a.m. to 7 a.m. in the morning, there was a high level of energy that was coming out of this one pyramid, the world pyramid. And he actually tested the season.

They actually were enhanced to the point where they doubled in their yield, they doubled in their size and so forth and so on. But that was his focus, was the seeds. I believe that these pyramids at a certain age point were designed specifically to tap Tolaric energy, which is laylines underneath pyramids. They were built over laylines. And I was told that at one point they were actually modulating the atmosphere. At its peak, there was apparently 55,000 pyramids from Yucatan all the way to down to Honduras that were active. We don't know what that means. Now, if it's true that they were

modulating the environment, the atmosphere, what did that do to human beings? What else were they doing? If you follow the work of Edgar Casey, not that he's somebody that is a scientist, but if you follow some of the oral tradition, the ancestors actually had devices that were powered. They had vehicles. Most archaeologists believe that the Maya did not invent the wheel. And yet when we go to museums, we see

toys that have wheels on them. We see what looks like carts that don't have wheels, but, you know, they built a highway system known as the Sokbe's in Guatemala, in various parts of Yucatan.

that go for miles. These are the white roads, the Sokbe's. Why would you build a road that's 100 feet wide that runs for two or 300 miles without some kind of vehicle development? So lots of questions. Yeah, you are all into history. Your Earth Ancients podcast is one of my go-toes.

you've been to Egypt and all over the world. What is it, though, about the Mayan culture that's just grabbed you, that's made that what seems to be your favorite? Well, I opened this book, The Maya Controversy, with a prologue that basically says, I open the book by saying, I love pyramids. I don't know what it is, but I love pyramids. And I've been visiting Mayan pyramids and Meso-American pyramids for 20-plus years. And the Maya are the most misunderstood culture in the world.

And the reason being is that if you are educated in this Newtonian theory, then you remove any subtle energy work. You remove the possibilities of pyramids producing energy. And like I said, this one scientist, John Burke, tested the oldest pyramids that he call. I have been to Chichenitsa when you could actually climb the pyramid, the El Castillo. And I am sensitive. I learned Reiki when I was very young, and this is an energy technique that's Tibetan and foundation. And I went into the interior of the great pyramid at Chichenicainisa, and I was like I was plugged into a low, power battery. So NASA has tested that pyramid and come up with certain frequencies. The nearby

pyramids at Ushmall and Koba are all powered. They're all sitting on laylines. Why would the Maya do that? There's a whole science that we're missing that the elders talk about, but it's so beyond their ability to describe that we need a whole new branch of science that can bring a scanning equipment and test these pyramids and other sacred sites and temples to understand what they were doing. And like the Egyptians, and you go to many of the places that I go on your tour, they built these temples for various practices, healing temples, birthing temples.

The Maya actually went one further. Ushmol is all about sexuality. And the elders who I talk to, Carlos Barreros, talks about the ability to understand your sexuality, not only for procreation having children, but having this as a very single, part of being human. So they had these temples and these other areas of the of the civic area where you would go and work with a priestess on developing your sexuality. The Maya sanctified sexuality in a way that we don't understand. And so I really believe that it's the most misunderstood culture in the world.

and that's one of the big interests that I have in writing this book is to look at it from the indigenous perspective. One of the things that's very kind of sad is the fact that all the decipherment, all the information that we have, has never really focused on collaborative research using or working with the elders who are all, live and there's six million Maya that still live in Mexico and in Honduras and in Guatemala. And all the decipherment has been through Western points of view. We don't have the Maya's perspective, which is amazing. And I have people on my show like Ed Barnhard, who was trained by Linda Shealy, who's the foremost Mayanist who did a lot of decipherment.

And she even admits that, you know, we're going to have to get more details outside of our sphere, outside of the orthodoxy. And what that means is guys like John Burke, who I just mentioned, other people who are doing research that is outside of the education model, you know. if you're using books that are 150 100 to 150 years old as your educational foundation, what does that leave for new development?

What are the engineers saying? What are the chemists saying about these places? What technology was used? I believe that the Maya developed a whole different science and physics that is based on subtle energy, earth energy, gravity, Tolaric energy

the auric fields, the energy from the body and so forth and so on, that we can't see. Because Newtonian physics doesn't see these things and can't rely on them, they're dismissed. Same thing in Egypt. It's the same kind of a deal.

Beyond the Newtonian physics, do you think there's any other reasons the mainstream academia, archaeologists, don't want to go there with the energy or the spiritual side of this? Well, in Mexico, the church runs a great deal of the thought process and the educational system. Up until about seven years ago,

you could do sacred change. chanting and ceremony before entering a site. And this is what the elders and I would do. Before you enter a site, an archaeological park, as they're known, you do a short ceremony. And there would be a little chanting and an intention. And when you use intention, it's a key to accessing unseen information. We would do this before entering the park.

You're not allowed to do that anymore. You're not allowed to do any kind of, just like in Egypt, we were just talking about this. You're not allowed to tone, to chant, to sing, you'll be asked to leave. And why the Catholic Church is doing this is because they're threatened, because people are having healings. I remember years ago, this is like 20 years ago, we were down in Chichenitsa, and we were doing a ceremony. and if somebody had a physical problem, they could use a certain chant to open their chakra system, right? And I witnessed a lot of people having healings, you know.

Well, that's threatening to the church. And so they're shutting all that down. So I'm kind of getting around that now by using intention. We do intentions before we do any tour. which is basically I intend to receive information. I intend to understand the healing of this area, so forth and so on. So that's a key to access these unseen energies. And it's actually working pretty well.

So we don't have to worry about the church. It's kind of sad. You mentioned NASA at Chechnica years ago. Anything else you can tell us about that? Well, you've seen the new scans that actually they're not new. They came out about five years ago where they show that that main pyramid sits on a sonote, which is a waterway. They also found canals that run underneath the pyramids that bring water through the pyramid, underneath it, and then exit. The body of the pyramid is filled with crystallized rock that conducts energy.

So that pyramid now we understand sits on a layline, which means that it's geomagnetic energy coming up, comes through the water. It's enhanced. It comes through the body of the pyramid. It's enhanced even further. We don't know how they tune the pyramid for what frequency levels, but that energy is enhanced and then distributed in some way. Now, I mentioned earlier that one of the theories is that we're talking about atmosphere modulation. And if the atmosphere is modulated in a certain way where you get certain levels of positive energy, what does that do to the human body and the human brain?

Maybe these are ways to enhance the environment that people live in. If, I mean, Chris Dunn just came up with a new book where he's thinking of the Tesla, Warren Cliff Tower. He talks very briefly about it, but I'm beginning to think, and I actually have talked about this with other scientists, that the pyramids kind of reproduce what Tesla was doing with this Warren Cliff Tower, which is powering the atmosphere with energy that can actually drive planes and cars and vehicles, perhaps machines in some way, and that would be known as free energy. So I'm thinking that Tesla tapped into the fundamentals of these pyramids, and the Warren

Cliff Tower was his version of. of that. Well, of course, it didn't last. It was never built because when Westinghouse got word that he was trying to build free energy devices, he would have been out of business, so he stopped the funding. So that's what I think pyramids are. There are energy devices, and there's a certain period of time where they were developed, they were fine-tuned, and then that civilization was destroyed and a new Maya came into it and those pyramids after say I want to say four or five thousand years didn't sit on Tolarik fields they weren't activated like the earlier pyramids but one thing that is unique about the Maya is that they were cosmological people

and what that means is that their civic centers were aligned to constellations. And we're just figuring this out now. Tikal emulates dracon constellation. We know that the pyramids in the Giza Plateau are aligned to the Orion constellation. Why would they do that? Why would they build and design an entire city based on a constellation alignment? Well, there's a cosmic energetic that we're not paying attention to. And this is why I'm saying that our physics, our science is not tuned to that, is not, does not have an understanding of that. So we're having to relearn what our ancestors were all about.

Why tap into a toleric field? If you look at the body and you look at the body as an energy center, that's what our fundamental physiology is all about, is energy. This is why medicine, this is why allopathic medicine is so off the cuff. You don't give medicine to fix the body. You look at the energy field, which is nutritional, which is vitamin therapy, chiropractic, ancient Chinese medicine with acupuncture. That's addressing the energy field, and our ancestors knew all about that. Newtonian physics is very, very, very.

much asked backwards. And that's what looks like, that's what it seems is happening now is that we're beginning to realize this. And even the academics are going, you know, we've got to revisit our, our training. And perhaps who are the guys that were the foundation of what we're learning?

You know, I have a, Egyptologist on the show, her name is Kara Cooney. I'm going to have her on the show. She has a new book out. she basically said that Egyptology is dead. She said it from a science point of view,

but she also said it from the poor treatment of women by the Egyptological community, you know, and their view of how these pharaohs treated women, you know. They actually treated women as equals in many of the phronic period. So there's a change in academics. It's not happening fast enough, but you see it. You see bits and pieces of it. Let's talk about your take on the Mayan history timeline.

Because I believe conventional thought is that the Maya developed their first civilization pre-classic period as early as like 2000 BC possibly. Yeah. Are you saying that you feel like it's kind of like, but we have an Egypt where, you know, mainstream says the dynastic Egyptians of 3,000 BC built everything. But guys like Muhammad Ibrahim, our tour guide says, no, they built on top of what the original or original ancient Egyptians did 10,000 BC or earlier. Are you saying kind of the same about the Maya that these pyramids are built on top of, a group that was way talked to us about that yeah so if we use this asteroid hit 9,500 at the beginning of the younger dry as the ice age the holocene period as a guideline and you you look at

the planet as being basically having the megafauna the animal life as well as human life wiped off the planet that is kind of the starting point because before Before that, we see it in Egypt as this pre-dynastic or early people that we don't really know about, that Egyptologists say, well, show me the pot shards. What's the evidence? The same thing can be said for Mesoamerican culture. There was an earlier period. Teowatihuacan is evidence of it. Most of the major Mayan cities are Evidence of it, you see earlier pyramids within pyramids that are thousands and thousands of years old. You look at the work of Mark Carlotto and other scientists that show that if you align the pyramids, the temples, and the stela from early Maya, they align to a North Pole that is significantly older. Mark Carlotto believes that Chichenitsa is 70 to 80,000 years old from the inception date. There's another guy, his name is Bill Reps, who's a mathematician who I've had on the show. He goes even further.

He thinks Chichenitsa and most of the Maya sites go back 200,000 years, which even me, I consider myself an anomalous. I'm having trouble swallowing now. You know, because we're steeped in the current science, and our current science can't go beyond a few thousand years. They can't conceive of an earlier civilization because they can't see the evidence. Now, the beauty of people like Graham Hancock is that Graham's like, well, if our oceans rose 400 feet in a matter of a few hundred years, that means that there's undiscovered civilizations that can help us with that. Dwarca in India is an example of that. Dwarca has been dated to over 12,000 years. But we don't hear about Dvorka in India because that's another country.

We're very proud in the West. It's our way or no way, you know, which is another problem. You know, we're not willing to look at Hindu's Yuga system, the Chinese, you know, or the Native American history, you know. We're not interested in looking at. what their point of view is. So, yeah, so the Maya had this earlier period, you could call it pre-Maya or pre-historic period,

where civilization rose after thousands of years to a point where we had these pyramids that were sitting on Tulleric fields. They were generating energy. They likely had machines that had wheels on them. They built these magnificent highways known as Sokbe's, that I, and I talk about this, I believe that they were forms of communication. They communicated using these white roads because the roads are made out of mortar,

granite, adobe, and mud, and they lasted for hundreds, if not thousands of years without maintenance. So there's all kinds of subtle notions of a sophisticated civilization in the Mayan world that because the interpretation is so backward, we're not really aware of them. Interesting. Very interesting. I had a great chat with Gendayo. I think it was last month. And we talked about Chichenitsa a little bit. And she was talking for a few minutes about the observatory. and how from and she's jendeo's a archaeologist and i would say one of the few critically thinking ones um who is admitting there's a lot more going on here than we've been told stuff's far older like you're saying and so again jendaya archaeologist she was saying she was so fascinated by that observatory at chichenitsa because when you're inside which i've been there but i never got to go inside or kind of look inside this.

So that's why I want to get your take. She said she was blown away by how you can tell there was components inside this that are missing. What are your thoughts on that from what you've seen? That's a good observation. And you're right. There's so much missing on the observatory. The Maya were brilliant astronomers. In fact, I'm now of the belief that they had this telescope.

And I have been to the observatory. El Caracol is called the snail. And they call it the snail because it had a staircase that twirled up into the body of the observatory into the building. But what we see today is a mishmash of what it originally looked like. We have no idea because when they came and they found Chichenica, it had been hit by a tsunami, a huge tsunami that basically reduced most of the buildings into piles of stone.

And, you know, the archaeologists did the best they can, but what you're looking at isn't what the original building looked like. So I wrote, I've written a couple of different articles on El Castillo, excuse me, El Caracol, at Tichinica. And I had a forensic engineer look at it, and he made a number of comments. And we both agreed that there were huge sections that were missing. there's, I don't know, you haven't been up to the top, right? No.

Well, if you go to the top, there's two huge pits that are the height and the depth of the entire building because it sits on a building. And his belief, because he used to go there in the 1980s when you could drive cars through and park your car right in the middle of the ball court, you know, and hang out. He walked through there and he believes that those two huge pits were. supportive apparatus that lifted up into the body of the observatory and supported various lenses. And he came up and we came up with an illustration that showed how these big apparatus

supported various optical lenses of different types. And these were used for peering into the heavens, you know. and so there's a lot of mechanics that are missing in that we don't know they've closed up the interior there's various rooms that were there and so they were master astronomers to the point where if you read some of the codesses especially the Dresden codisks

it looks like they are copy of master books or pathways to understanding the cosmos. So there's technical manuals that these are taken from. And he was told by a number of elders that the translations were from the following group that survived the great deluge. And so when we see Drescent Codex, they're just hand copies of very, very detailed astronomical observations.

The other thing that's real interesting about these codexes is that they are so detailed. It's almost like they're made for someone who's in a ship, in a spacecraft, who's coming up and noticing the gravitational pull of Venus and of Mars and of the moon. And because their details are so accurate that were dumbfounded as to how they would be able to see these planets

just by observation and come up with these details. You can't do it. You have to look at a telescope or be there in the space around these planets to observe the effects of the gravity. And somehow the Maya knew this. By observation, no. By advanced technique, advanced tools, advanced perhaps craft to some kind. Well, that's a perfect segue to ask you about these anomalous figurines that seem to depict what looks like astronauts.

and you've, man, the photos you've posted the last several years in your, mostly in your Earth Ancients podcast, Facebook group, I believe, that's what really caught my attention and got me excited about the Maya, more so than I'd ever been. When I saw these figurines, and there seems to be so many of them, so it's not just one, it's not two or three, it seems like maybe hundreds of these figurines that depict, what looks like ancient astronauts.

Yeah, and I had to be careful because I am not a supporter of ancient astronauts, and their premise that anything that can't be explained is ancient astronauts. I mean, I believe that there are ancient cultures that connected with, and the Maya are one of them, with star people. But for me, and I think you too, Dee, it's more that Earth humans developed sophisticated sciences over thousands of years. And I believe that the Maya at their

height were transversing the planets. They did travel via spacecraft to some kind. And when we see these figures, and I collected a few of them, if you ever can get a hold of one through eBay or Sutherbees,

it doesn't cost 10 grand. You should get one because they're beautifully rendered. And the figures I have... You actually only... some of these? I own four. That's incredible. Yeah. Do you have one you can show us? Yeah, hang on, one sec. There's a lot of different helmets that they're wearing. This one's kind of crude, but he's got a helmet on with a zero atmosphere suit. He's not the most rendered. I'm going to show you one that is the classic suit, and this is a, was found in a tomb. He is got the four. He has got the

full head gear, zero atmosphere weight, and what makes him unique is his arms are in zero atmosphere suit. The anthropologist typically said, well, this is a shaman who's in a, you know, they'll say this is a shaman in a animal suit. Because if you look at the design, the top of his head, he's got two eyes, like it's kind of a frog or something. But if you look, closely. It's technology. And a lot of these were made from molds. And there's literally thousands of them that you can find on, I've purchased most of mine on eBay. I was actually in Compeche, which is south of Yucatan one time. And I was in a little shop and I bought one, almost like this one for, I think it was 50 bucks.

This is years and years ago. Now you can't, it's really hard to find them. I almost feel like they're taking them off the market because they bring up so many questions. But what was fascinating to me is they go beyond simple, shamanistic, ritualistic purpose. They're showing details of what the helmet looks like on the head. They are showing weightless suits that are typical.

Oh, and by the way, I had this analyzed by a Apollo astronaut who helped design the suits. And he goes, that's right on. Every aspect of that reproduction in that little figure mimics Apollo astronaut suits. If you look closely at the arm, see how heavy the arm arm laments are? His legs are missing, but he's got heavy outfit on his legs as well. These are astronauts. And what I believe they were is there were specific individuals. Like we honor the astronauts when I was younger, like that orbited the planet, Cooper.

And John Glenn, these guys were honored and were heroes because they're the first ones to go on these craft that orbit to Earth. or to go in our cosmos. I believe that these guys were in a similar manner honored by the locals for doing certain things, maybe leaving the planetary system, maybe leaving the cosmos, maybe landing on Mars, landing on, we don't know what, but there's just too much detail to discount them. You know what I mean? And there's other examples. There's examples in museums that I've posed.

hosted of various pilots flying craft, big craft. In Mexico City at an anthropological museum, there's examples of rocket stages, stages of rockets, one, two, three, and four, and so forth. And there's examples of figures holding technology. There's also a whole bunch of figures that are like this figure that are not only holding technology, it looks like they're about to enter some form of a war.

And I talk about this in the book is one of the big wars for Earth was the Mahabharata, which is the Indian culture celebrates every year, that we survive the war. I think the Maya were part of that. And that's probably earlier than 9,000, hundred years. That's the previous epoch. So there's bits and pieces of data that show that the Maya at one point were like rocking it. Man, they were all over our planet. They were likely outside of our

planet. And we know this for, like I mentioned before, what we have left is these codecs, is these books of knowledge. And they're very sophisticated. Beyond the typical ground-based civilization. It looks like they were out in the atmosphere. It was like out of our planetary system, or they were in our planetary system and studying Venus, Mars, the sun, the moon, to a degree that we're just discovering today. Yeah, and then you take those depictions of these Mayan figurines

and what looks like space suits. Combined that with some of the depictions we've seen of Pekal at Palenke, you know, that whole lid on the sarcophobic. That's one of my favorite pieces. It's just so anomalous. And I've heard all the theories, too, that this really means this, but you can't deny the fact that it looks like he's in kind of a craft. Yeah.

And then you add to that, even some of these so-called Olmec pieces. I can't remember the one name of it, but the guy is basically sitting in this craft. Yeah, with a helmet on. Well, the helmet on. Yeah. So it can't all just be shamanic or, you know, it's fascinating. Well, so your book comes out when, Cliff? It's overdue by six months, so it's probably not going to be for another year.

I have a two-book deal that I'm supposed to commit to. and I just haven't been very focused on the edit, but I think about another year. Just don't do to us like the Grand Museum is doing to us. Oh, I wouldn't ever do that. No, no, no. That's like hanging candy in front of you and not giving it to you. No, that's, I'm trying to be very quiet about this book,

the Mayan controversy because I'm stepping out of my comfort zone on a lot of levels. I'm classically educated. I have degrees in marketing and business, and I also have a design degree. And so I'm steeped in education. But when I go to these places and I feel the energy and I feel the thought behind the buildings,

I'm like really pushed to go beyond the comfort level. And that has to do with subtle energy. Tolaric energy, which is what these pyramids are all about. and my my toolage or training under these Mayan elders and what they say you know well that's exciting man when that book comes out we'll definitely have to do another interview and we'll push it out and talk about it but hey let's close with what is your favorite um myan site that you've been to a plankie which we just saw in November was pretty impressive um but i have to say that I really like the Yucatan Peninsula because it seems like that phase is an early phase of Maya development.

And my favorite city is Ushmol, where you have the pyramid of the magicians. You have the great pyramid. You have so much that is left to excavate. And it's very strange. Unfortunately, Mexico is very poor. it's a developing country. But if you go to Ushmol, which is on the Gulf side of the peninsula, Ushmol has pyramids where you climb to the top.

And if you look out, there's three or four other pyramids that are equal in height and weight that are sitting to be excavated. And it's a huge site. And we're only looking at it, maybe a fifth or less than a third, of what's possible. There's monstrosities that await exploration. And the other reason about

that I like Ushmoh is it's not really well known and it's off the beaten path and, you know, it doesn't have the same tourism and hands-off approach that you have at Chichen Itza. You can't touch anything now at Chichen Itza. They've totally encircled the pyramid, the observatory, all the buildings,

so you can't connect. Whereas at Ushmol, you still can climb the Great Pyramid. You still can interact with the temples. You can go to a number of the buildings and sit and meditate, which is what it's all about. So that's why I like Ushmol. Yeah, I remember going to Chechnitz in 2020. and after having been in Egypt, I was so sorely disappointed that you literally couldn't even go in anything, let alone hardly touch anything.

It was like, what? Well, that is a fascinating, Cliff. This was a great interview. Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge and information. So to everybody watching, listening, be looking forward to Cliff's book in about a year or so. Follow the Earth Ancients podcast, subscribe. Cliff, where else can people follow you and keep up to date with everything? I see Earth Ancients and then you can go to our YouTube channel, which is Earth Ancients Official.

A lot of different archaeologists are on that. We have a Facebook international. We have a Facebook just Earth Ancients group page. And then we have an Instagram page. Isn't it like anything like yours where you got a million people on there. but we try to put up a few photos. Well, and your Facebook group is one of the premier groups to jump into if you're on Facebook. So many great photos, so much great content coming through there.

So subscribe to the Earth Ancients Facebook group as well. And Cliff, thanks again for your time, my friend. My pleasure, buddy. We'll do this when the book comes out. Yeah, definitely. I'll send you a copy.