Megalithic Marvels - Marco Vigato: The Lost Cruciform Chamber of Guirún has been Found

Episode Date: April 14, 2020

A major modern day rediscovery has been made by researcher Marco Vigato. Mexico's forgotten megalithic cruciform chamber of Guirún has been Found! Also mentioned in this episode: Video: "Grave of an Alien" Unearthed Unearthed in Crimea Article: The Top 5 Megalithic Mysteries of Mexico Website: Uncharted Ruins Facebook: Uncharted Ruins Video:  The Forgotten Cruciform Chamber of Guirún Has Been Found

Welcome to the Megalithic Marvels podcast. Dee Olson here, your host and founder of megalithic marvels.com. Thanks for joining me on my journey of reconstructing the prehistoric past. I hope you all are healthy and well out there as we navigate through COVID-19. In this episode, I feature a new interview that I just did with researcher Marco Vigato from Mexico City. who recently made an amazing modern-day rediscovery of the lost cruciform chamber of Garum. But before we get to the interview,

I want to give you a quick announcement. Recently released a YouTube video documenting the fascinating discovery of a skeleton with a massive elongated skull that was unearthed in Crimea just a few years ago. While mainstream archaeology explains this find-a-way is just cradle headboarding, it's obvious that this skull possesses much more cranial mass than normal human skulls.

Cradle headboarding can alter the shape, but obviously it cannot produce more mass. The excavation team that actually found this skeleton named the site, quote, the grave of an alien, end quote. So just search for Megalithic Marvels on YouTube or click the link in the show notes of this podcast to find my video called The Grave of an Alien unearthed in Crimea. Well, let's get to my interview with researcher Marco Vagato regarding his amazing rediscovery of the lost cruciform chamber of Garun. Well, I'm excited to be interviewing Marco Vigato in this episode.

Marco is a researcher documenting the evidence of ancient civilizations and sacred sites around the world, specifically the megalithic remains of ancient Mexico and Mesoamerica. Marco, thanks for joining me today. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be on the show. So, Marco, before we talk about this amazing rediscovery of the megalithic cruciform chamber, I'd like to get to know you just a little bit more. For starters, how did a native of Italy end up living in Mexico?

Yeah, I've been living in Mexico for five years now, and it's pretty simple. My wife is Mexican, so I decided to move here just about five years ago. And, of course, that has helped a lot with my research in the ancient megalitic sites, give me a chance to get to know more about these amazing countries, about its history and archaeology, and literally hundreds of archaeological sites in Mexico. Yeah, I've been a fan of your research for several years now, Marco. And about two years ago, you wrote an article for Megalithic Marvels titled The Top Five Megalithic Mysteries of Mexico. And I'll link that article on our show notes.

But this article was so eye-opening for me because up until I read it and saw your photographs, I did not fully grasp how rich Mexico was with Megalithic history. Right. Right. Yeah, it's quite incredible because of realities, he's that. Many people, of course, would focus on the main archaeological sites. I think of Chechenica, Oshmahl, Teotu Akan to some extent. But the reality is that there are many more smaller ruins that are pretty older than those and much more interesting, much more fascinating, just from an architectural and megalithic point of view and a possibly point to the existence of a much earlier megalithic civilization in Mexico,

which we know very little about. Right, and in this article that you wrote for Megalithic Marvels, you made mention of, and then you showed this old black and white photo from the early 1900s of this cruciform chamber near Mietla that had basically since been lost to the general public. And I remember being mesmerized by this photo because I had never seen anything like it. And I'm a guy that looks at megalithic structures all day long. And so fast forward a couple of years to the present day. And then you recently break the news that you rediscovered this structure yourself.

And to me, this is a major archaeological news. So that's why I wanted to get you on the podcast. And I was hoping you could take us back a couple of years ago to when you first learned of and saw this old photo of this cruciform chamber. What were your first thoughts when you learned about it? So I visited the area. This is actually my fourth or fifth expedition to the region around Mitala. So I know the area pretty well. Visiting a number of very interesting megalitic sites in the area,

including, of course, the world famous Montelban, Mithla, also a number of other sites, a very interesting archaeology in that region. That's where I first came across pictures of these megalitic cruciform chamber in a paper by Marshall H. Seville dated 1909. There was not much in terms of description, just a cup of pages with measurements, a few black and white pictures, and that was pretty much it.

It was very surprised I remember at the time and not finding any mention of this structure in the more recent literature on Mitla, even on Mexican archaeology in general. So that's where I start to do. have open interest in this tomb and try to locate it. Did a couple of expeditions back then in 2017 and 2018 to try to locate it, but both were unsuccessful. It sounded like local peoples had seen the chamber, remember at least having, knowing people who had been there many years before,

but nobody could really point at its exact location, not even the local, authorities in either Midlau or Oaxaca, which is the regional capital. And everything changed in late 2018 when it was contacted by one of our local correspondents down there in Oaxaca, who actually provided coordinates for the tomb itself. They were able to locate it through some local guides. And ever since then, had wanted to go and visit the site myself. which, as you might understand, is in a very difficult-to-reach region. It's very isolated in the middle of the mountains.

So that's the reason why the site has been effectively lost for over a century now. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing that all the people in and around that area, most of them, it sounds like, didn't even know where this place was either. So you had to be super excited when you ran into this other gentleman who had provided you with the coordinates. And so now put us in your shoes the first time you begin to approach this site. What were you seeing? What were you experiencing?

And tell us a little bit about what the area looked like. So I've been to the same general area before. Actually, a little town, it's probably six or seven kilometers east of Mitla, which is called Saga, which is a very big, thoracque, a very interesting town. There's an old ruined ascienda in the city. in the middle of town, and that's where most of our hints pointed at when we

first started looking for this tomb. As a matter of fact, the number of locals had originally told us that the tomb was located on the grounds of these abandoned. So, we spent almost one day, and it was again back in 2018,

exploring the area. We eventually found a local guy that we still had keys to one of the gates of these Asiena, one of the old dilapidated buildings there. And there was actually an ancient tomb underneath that we explored. We took pictures of that. Very impressive structure, but not the one that had been photographed by Seville back in 1909.

However, this provided confirmation that we were in the correct area. We're like in the right place. So when I finally got coordinates for the tomb and went back just a couple of months ago to try to find the tomb, that's also where we started off. The tomb is actually located a pre couple of hours still farther out towards mountains. It's a very harsh, very difficult terrain. There are lots of canyons and very steep hill sides. So unless you go there with a really expert guide, it's a very hard. practically impossible to find a place yourself, even if you have GPS coordinates,

just because the terrain is so rugged. There's only a little trail that takes you up there, goes through some really beautiful, actually. Agatha plantations, the region there is very well known for Mescal production, so it's really beautiful landscape, but very rugged, very difficult terrain. and as you go up, you have a view of the entire valley of Oaxaca. So you can see the entire valley for miles and miles until the horizon. And needless to say, it's very sparsely inhabited. We're actually quite surprised out to find a number of little checks

at the price among the local people. use from time to time when they're like herding goats and animals in the area. And the first thing you see is a group of ruins that occupies the summit of a hill at a site called Guirun. And there, and they've also included some pictures in my article, we found the ruins of what look like a large palace around a square rectangular courtyard, very similar to the palaces of Mithla, very dilapidated, but you could still make out the main structures facing the courtyard, a pyramid on one of the sides consisting of three different levels.

So there was one of the first signs of the site itself. I remember having read the district of the place in the original writings by Savianza. We knew by them that the tomb was not far away. It was just a very few hundred meters away. So that's where we actually started the search in the bush and like the low vegetation pretty much covers everything and doesn't let you see practically, practically anything that is a further than just a few meters, a few yards away. You stated in your original article, which I'll also link in the show notes,

that once you approached the cruciform structure, you said, quote, there are a few words to describe a structure so entirely unique in the panorama of Mesoamerican architecture. Right. So try to put into words for us what you were experiencing again when you first saw with your own eyes this cruciform chamber. So first of all, the structure is absolutely unique. There is nothing similar anywhere else in Mesoamerican. I would say almost anywhere else in the world. It's built of massive stone blocks. Some of the stones measure over four or five meters long,

which is about just 12 to 15 feet long. So we're talking about a really massive stone blocks within a range of five to 10 tons. The storm is everywhere perfect. So it looks like, it looks as if the tomb had been there for just years, not centuries or thousands of years, so perfect is the stonework. the geometric carvings and decoration on the stone blocks.

Then you have this almost perfect cruciform shapes. The structure itself, you have to imagine it's built in the shape of cross with the four different arms or astronomically oriented. And inside it's entirely covered in these beautiful and very intricate geometric carvings. And of course, nobody knows what's the purpose or the function of these structure. It's usually called a tomb, or at least that's how Seville originally described it in 1999. But the reality is that nobody knows what the structure was for a...

I doubt personally that it was a tomb just because it's not underground. It's in the open air. It's very carefully astronomically rented. So I would almost be inclined to considerate an astronomical observatory also because of the position and it has a very dominating position of the entire valley. You can see again like the entire valley of Oaxaca from that spot. And you have this almost like overwhelming sense of mystery when you get to this spot because it's so lonely, so isolated, very far away from the main centers of civilization

that were down in the valley. In the same time, you have this huge massive megalitic stone blocks that appear as if out of nowhere, just in the middle of the strad and the low, incredible. Do you have any idea where the megalithic blocks would have been quarried from? So there are a number of quarries in the area. There's actually a very interesting paper from 1996. They described the number of quarries in the region of Mitla. And we were actually able to visit a number of those are also located in the vicinity of the cruciform tomb. but it's estimated at around 200 stone blocks still lie in the quarries, which are of very large size, also measuring 4 to 5 meters,

to a 15 feet long, so comparable in size to the ones that can be seen in the upper cruciform chamber. The closest quarry is at a site called La Quarada, which means the square, which is located just about two to three kilometers, further uphill from the place where the crucifermatum is located, and it derives its name from one huge massive block of stone, just in the shape of a square. This found that the site is estimated to weigh between 15 and 20 tons.

And there was carved and then left independent at these megalitic stone quarries. And I think the article that I reference from 1996 mentions at least seven different stone quarries, many of which serve not only this particular site of Wuron, but also the nearby site of Mitla and Saga, where there are a number of other megalitic structures and tombs. I love this picture you've got of you standing right next to, I believe it's the largest stone block in by the chamber that weighs an estimated 10 tons. And I've been to, you know, I've been to Peru and Alentei Tambo. And stone looks almost exactly like a couple of specific stones at Alentei Tambo.

Incredible that this is here in Mexico. Right. So it looks like you said there was about 52 stone blocks to make up this structure. Correct. Correct. That's the estimate of severe other realities that have many of, of the stone blocks are still buried. So there is even doubt whether the structure itself continues farther down

because of course no excavations have been ever performed at the site, but the floor doesn't seem to be stone or bedrock. So it's very well possible the structure continues farther down. So the 52 blocks only referred to the portion of the tomb that was uncovered at the time of Seville's initial survey or excavation. So it's actually quite possible there is more buried underneath. Like you said, Seville mentioned it as a tomb, but you make the point, ask the question,

is it more of a ritual chamber or astronomical observatory? So do you kind of run towards the chamber and astronomical observatory over the tomb? Yes. So the main reason why Severeo considered the tomb in the first place is because of its shape. As a matter of fact, the majority of Zabier. and mixed-tech tombs are known in the area. If you think of the tombs of Mitla and Sagaid and Montelban,

they are all in the shape of a cross, which might have had some symbolic meaning for the ancient Zapotechs. However, all these tombs are built quite deeply underground. They're all rothed. The decoration that you find inside these tombs is very different. is usually very simple, just the basic stonework. In some cases, there are some mosaic panels inside this tomb, but overall it's fairly simple.

In the case of these crucifference chamber of Geroon, first of all, there is no roof covering. And one might assume that the tomb was left unfinished, which would explain what it was never covered over. But reality is that when you look at decoration inside, There is even still traces of paint in some places. It's very clear that structure was completed. It was even like painted and plastered over.

So there is no way in my mind it was left unfinished or was deliberately deliberately left in this state. I think it's much more likely. The structure itself was indeed completed, but it was not a tomb. Another interesting point. And if you look at the decoration, it's very different from. what you see in other tombs, like the ones of Mitla, which as I said, is much simpler. It's basically very simple geometric patterns.

It's mostly just a basic stonework. Whereas here you find a very complex, very intricate decoration on pretty much all the walls that compose this cruciform chamber. And if you look at the patterns of decoration, it looks like waves, spasticus in some portions of it, they bear a very close similarity to the decorative patterns you find in the policies of Mithla. So at Mithla you have a very clear differentiation between the policies above ground that were used for ritual purposes and then the tombs underground. And the decoration in these two layers is entirely different. So in the keys of the tomb of Guirone, this cruciform chamber of Guirone,

the decoration is much more similar to what you find in the policies of Meathland. So that's what suggests to me that the function of it might have been a ritual rather than as a tomb. Yeah, that's what's so fascinating to me about this structure is not only are, is it made up of these incredibly huge megalithic stones, but the interior walls, as you state, are so intricately lined. with these geometric patterns, which I think, as you stated, the closest example we have is what's at METLA or METLA. Do you think this structure may have been crafted with some form of geopalmer and that it was cast into place rather than quarried or transported? Well, I think that's a very interesting possibility.

Look, I'm not a big proponent of the geopolymer theory myself, but I think in this specific case, I think there is definitely like many hints that would suggest a geopolym was in fact used. So, first of all, if you look at the carvings, it's almost impossible, at least it's very difficult to explain how this could have been carved with very simple tools, like simple stone tools or even with metal tools.

They're everywhere perfect all over the different walls or different stone surfaces. There is no deviation. You have perfect right angles. Every car being you don't see any trace of mistakes or deviations from just the standard pattern. And it's just like a perfect geometric design. which would have been like really, really hard to carve in this kind of stone,

which is actually a fairly hard undesight type of stone. And so that's what might suggest that rather than carved, they were actually molded on the stone as a stone was still soft. If you also look at the type of stone itself, there is quite some debate on what kind of stone that really is. A majority of articles described it. as a sort of underzite. It's a very finely-grained underzite.

And when you look at it, it really looks like sort of cement or concrete. So it's very different also from the stones that are used at Mitla. For instance, we see that it is a much less finely-grained stone. You state in your article that these magnificent structures appear as if out of nowhere

and are the expression of a tradition of work in stone that had already become extinct long before the time of the Spanish conquest. So my last question, Marco, is any guess? What's your best guess on how old this structure might be? It could very well be thousands of years old. Look, if you look at all the different quarries located in the region, there are pretty hundreds of stone blocks are still abandoned in the quarries, many of which are truly megalithic.

There actually reports one stone block that might wait in excess of 300 tons, which is describing a survey of the prehistoric quarries around Mitla, which actually be one of the largest, you know, all of Mesoamerican in the entire new world, with the exception, perhaps,

of the monoliths of Tijuanae of Tijuana in Bolivia. So when you take all these evidence, of unfinished construction, it's very clear that some colossal building program had been undertaken in the region. You find evidence of it in this course from chamber of Guarun, but also in the policy of Mitla, where you see some truly enormous stone blocks

were incorporated in the later construction. Of course, we do not know when these construction stopped, but it was probably hundreds of years, maybe even thousands of years, before the later layers of occupation of the site. To this you should add, when the Spanish arrived, the local people seemed you have almost no tradition at all of who had built those structures.

They were probably already in ruins by them. So again, you find a very similar problem to what you have in a number of places in Peru and also across Mexico of the almost total absence of local traditions as to how these structures could have been built and even as to the identity of the original builders of these structures.

Now, conventionally, these buildings, including also many of the megalitic structures that are attributed to Zapotech people just because these are the earliest historical civilization that we know of in the region, Zapotecs developed, starting in 500 BC. so they were a pretty long-lived civilization by the beginning of Zapatite civilization

might be dated to 500 BC or just about the second half of the first millennium BC but we do not know if somebody else was there before and there are actually a number of hints that would almost suggest

that these structures or at least the megalithic parts of these structure were already there long before the time of Zapatics and we also feel featured a highlight video of Marco's rediscovery on megalithic marvels.com. It's also on our YouTube channel, but it features the top photographs and information he's provided. Marco, congratulations on your ground-breaking rediscovery.

Is there any new projects or research you're focusing on that you'd like to share with our listeners? Well, of course, I'm always interested in discovering new sites and exploring megalitic structure around Mexico. I think just in that region of Mitla, there are still many more megalithic structures that await rediscovery. So whenever our next expeditions is actually going to focus on the megalithic quarries, as I mentioned, these are a huge stone block, probably weighed them 300 tons. This is believed to still lay in one of the quarries at the site called Guigostgia, which is located just a few miles from Mitla. We couldn't actually explore the site because the location is very remote.

It would have taken a couple more days of exploration to reach that. But it's definitely very high in our priority list. It would also be a massive archaeological discovery if you think that this could easily prove to be one of the largest carbon monoliths in all of the American continent. Well, Marco, thank you for joining me on the Megalithic Marvel's podcast. And to all the listeners, keep in touch with Marco by following his personal. blog Uncharted Ruin's, which can be found at unchartedruins. com. I'll link that in the show notes.

And check out his Uncharted Ruin's Facebook page as well, where he posts a lot of his content there. I'll link that as well for insightful articles and photographs relating to ancient history and megalithic structures. Marco, thanks so much. Thank you so much, Steve. It was a pleasure to be on the show. Well, I hope you enjoyed this interview.

Please subscribe to this podcast wherever you are listening from. And give me a good rating on iTunes if you enjoyed it from there. Thanks again for joining me, everybody. And until next time, keep exploring.