Megalithic Marvels - Megalithic Mysteries & the Subterranean Underworld of Ancient Mexico / Marco Vigato

Episode Date: August 8, 2023

Thousands of years before the advent of the great classical Maya and Aztec civilizations, an unknown megalithic culture occupied much of Mexico and Central America. In this new episode I interview researcher, author and founder of the ARX project Marco Vigato regarding the lost megalithic cultures of Mexico and the many megalithic mysteries of ancient Mexico. Marco takes on a journey inside the subterranean underworld of Mexico where an extensive network of subterranean chambers have recently been discovered under the archaeological site of Mitla. According to the Zapotecs, these passageways were considered to be an entrance to the underworld. Next we will discuss the huge precision megaliths that were recently discovered in Mexico that look eerily similar to the blocks seen in Bolivia at Tiwanaku. SHOW NOTES ARX Project https://www.arxproject.org/ ARX Project on Patreon https://www.patreon.com/ARXproject ARX Project on Facebook https://www.facebook.com/ARXprojectMX/photos Marco's book https://www.amazon.com/Empires-Atlantis-Civilizations-Traditions-throughout/dp/1591434335

Well, I am excited to be joined by Marco Vigato today, the Italian-born researcher and explorer who lives in Mexico City. And Mark, I was looking over your credentials. I see you were educated at Harvard. You've written a great book called The Empires of Atlantis, which I want to ask you about later. You've been on all kinds of TV shows and documentaries, most recently ancient apocalypse with Graham Hancock. So I've got to ask you about that. Pretty exciting. And you're also president of the ARCS Association. Wow, Marco. I mean, just the intro alone shows your credentials. I'm so honored to have you back on the Megalithic Marvels podcast. Thanks for being here.

Well, thank you very much. Derek. It's always a pleasure to be on the show with you. Let's start out. Tell us a little bit about ancient apocalypse and how you got invited by Graham to be a part of that. And for people that might not know, tell us what episode you were on and what that experience was like with Graham. Yeah, for sure. So it was on the episode two, which if you've watched the series, was the episode dedicated specifically to Mesomerica. So there was a segment. It was filmed at Cholula, a couple more segments, at a very interesting megalithic site just outside of Mexico City, called Tzko, and Nanko-Chiccalco, which is one of my favorite.

archaeological sites in all of Mexico. As you know, I've been researching ancient Mesoamerica and the megalitic civilization of Mexico now for the past seven or eight years. And so the contact with the production team and with Graham came mostly through my work, my recent publications on ancient Mesoamerica. I've written several articles now on various megalitic sites all over Mexico. And so that's how we started the connection and how we got invited to participate in the show as an expert on Mesoamerica.

Man, it really paid for you, I guess, paid off for you to move from all the way from Italy to Mexico, where you've kind of become, yeah, really one of the foremost experts on the ancient civilizations of Mexico and the mexico. Galithic lost cultures. So really exciting. Okay, so I mentioned that you are president of the ARCS Association. So tell my listeners, my audience, what ARCS Association is, what that stands for. And then let's get into some of the exciting discoveries you've been making, starting with the METLA site.

Yes. So back in 2020, together with two more collaborators, I, co-founded the ARX Association. Arx stands for archaeological research and exploration. And at the core of the ARX Association's mission is to promote research and exploration into the archaeological heritage of Mexico and Mesoamerica. So we do actually fund and sponsor expeditions across Mexico, Mesoamerica, to uncover the truth about the origins of Mesoamerican civilization.

Of course, operating as an independent organization we're pretty much autonomous in terms of funding. Of course, we operate with all the required permits. We work in very close collaboration with the Mexican National Institute of History and Anthropology, with various universities and academic institutions here in Mexico. It's very important that all of our research is conducted within the utmost scientific standards, so complying with all the scientific academic protocols. So that's how we have been involved recently in a couple of projects.

One in South Eastern Mexico in the state of Oaxaca, which is a Project Leobine going to talk about that in just a moment, which involves geophysical study of the archaeological site of Mitla, but also in the state of Mexico at a very interesting archaeological site called San Miguelisthapan, where we have sponsored the recovery of now several megalithic stone slabs belong to an unknown culture. They're still studying and trying to understand which culture, civilization they may belong, and what up the age of these very enigmatic finds might be. I think it's really exciting, Marco, because on one hand, you were educated at Harvard. You created this ARCS project association, and so you're only about doing stuff the right way with science, like you said,

following all the protocols, working with the Mexican government. But yet based on what I know of you from the past and some of the TV shows you've done and the articles he've even written for megalithic marvels, you think way beyond the mainstream. You're a critical thinker. You're what some might call an alternative researcher in a sense. And so I love that you've got the best of both worlds here. You're a critical thinker. you're not boxed into just the mainstream paradigm yet with your education and with this association you've created, you're able to get in and actually start digging in the dirt and discovering.

So it's pretty exciting. So tell us about what you guys have been uncovering at Mitla, this amazing ancient site in Mexico. I believe it was considered by the, you call it the Zapotex to be an entrance to the underworld. And so tell us a little bit about the site and the exciting things you're uncovering. Yeah, absolutely. So for us, it's really important that the facts speak for themselves. So no matter what my personal convictions, my personal beliefs are, we don't want these to get into in the way of rigorous scientific research. So one example of that is a project Leobadi's research that you mentioned at Mitla. There we partner with several institutions

with the Mexico National Institute of History and Anthropology, with the National Autonomous University of Mexico to conduct a geophysical survey of the archaeological site. What that involves is the use of different ground prospection methods that include ground penetrating radar, electric resistivity tomography and seismic tomography to image what a lot of what exists below the ground of Mitla. This is, as you know, a site that has fascinated me for many, many years now because of its impressive megalitic architecture. There are a number of very interesting megalitic structures, not only Mitla, but also in the

nearby mountains, like the Megalitic Chamber of Weroon, that I think you also covered. So this is one of my personal favorite sites in Oof Mexico. And there have always been stories around the possible existence of a very extensive network of subterranean chambers and tunnels underneath the site. There actually counts a date back to the 1600s that talk about these underground labyrinth underneath the site of Mitla. But up to this point, nobody at least. really employed this type of geophysical methods to confirm or not the existence of these

tunnels. So in the 2022 for the first time, we conducted a comprehensive geophysical survey, a geophysical scan of the site that now we can say confirmed the existence of these subterranean chambers, which she detected several very large chambers located almost directly underneath the main Catholic Church of Mitla, that appear to be connected by a network of subterranean tunnels extending to a very great, to a very considerable death below ground, up to, in some cases, 12, 15, down to 18 meters below ground. So there is clearly evidence of a very large network of subterranean chambers and tunnels. And now in a second phase of this project, we want to uncover more about not only the extent of these subterranean, but also their possible contents. Mila is such an incredible site.

You wrote an article for us on Megalithic Marvels a handful of years ago, and we did. You talked about this site, Meatla, and you shared with me some fascinating photographs. And there's this one photograph. It shows a railing in one corner. And then you see this, you know, subterranean looks like underground, really big blocks that are mortarless, which also have this beautiful kind of fretwork in it. You know what I'm talking about? Yes, yes, absolutely.

This is one of two known subterranean chambers that exist at Meat Lab. So when first excavations were conducted at the site in the 1800s, two subterranean chambers were discovered in the southern part of the site, which are, I think, some of the most impressive megalitic architecture, not only in Mexico, perhaps in the entire world. As you say, these subterranean chambers are massively built of huge, megalitic stone blocks, they contain in one case monolithic columns. The fitting and the jointing of the stones is very close to perfection, some of the finest

I've ever seen anywhere on Earth, and that includes Egypt and Peru. So these are these are new chambers that we have now uncovered underneath the church, at least whose existence we have confirmed by means of geophysical methods, could all also be built of huge megalitic stone blocks. So we're really talking about some megalitic stone chambers. The evidence for that comes on the one hand from just the analogy with these other chambers that are known from the southern part of the site,

even though the newly discovered chambers at the church are much larger than the two other chambers that are known at Mitla. And the second piece of evidence, also comes from the geophysical scan itself, which shows some areas of a higher resistivity or high density, which is compatible with the fact that the walls, potentially the ceilings and floors

of these chimneys are in fact constructed of huge megalites. A reality is that at Midla, the natural bedrock is pretty fragile. It's not a very good quality backdrop. And so in pretty much all cases, whenever they build below the ground, have excavated some deeper rock-cut trenches and then lined the walls, floors, and ceilings of these chambers,

which with much better quality stone, like on the site, volcanic top, like much harder basalt in some cases. So this is what we find at Mitla and what we also expect to find at these newly uncovered subterranean chambers. This site, tell us a little bit about what does mainstream acupuncture? How old do they say the site is, at least on the surface above ground? And then what is your theory on the megalithic blocks underneath? Do you believe these predate the stuff above ground? Because like you said, these megaliths look like something you would see in Peru or Egypt. I don't know exactly what stone that is.

So like you said, it might all be a little bit softer stone, which doesn't hold up as long. but give us a little bit on the mainstream take on how old METLA is, and then do you think the foundations predate that? Well, Mitla is, in fact, one of the oldest continuously inhabited sites in all of the America. There is evidence of human occupation at Mitala that dates back over 10,000 years ago to 8,000 BC, which I also find it's something very intriguing when you find that these very impressive, megalitic sites closely associated with early human occupation in the birth of agriculture. Mitla is in fact one of, and I'm talking specifically about Mitla, not just Mexico or Central America,

being one of the cradles of agriculture is evidence that so many of our modern crops, including corn, beans, gourds, squash were first domesticated, in the area of Mitla over 10,000 years ago. So that specific area is very much connected with birth, with the development of agriculture. And I find fascinating that you find that this association between agriculture and megalitic architecture, not only at Mitla, but also places like Quebec-Letepe, for instance,

in Turkey, in Egypt, in Sumer, in Mesopotamia. So there is some sort of association here that I find fascinating. Now, when we talk about the age of the site of Miltl, even though clearly human occupation, there goes back thousands and thousands of years. Most of the ruins that we see today above ground are dated up to between the first centuries C.E. To around the 11th or 12th century C.E. So relatively close to the time of the Spanish conquest. However, there is evidence that this structure were continuously rebuilt on top of earlier buildings, on top of earlier structures. One of the most important findings of the geophysical survey is the existence of an earlier building of an earlier palace or temple underneath what is the main architectural structure at

Mitla, which is called the Palace of the Colons. Now the geophysical survey showed that the existence of an earlier stairway, which is now buried deep underneath the platform of this structure, which shows in turn that Mitla must have been already an important site, perhaps centuries before its apogee in the first centuries of the present era. It's a beautiful site, and it reminds me in a sense of, like I was just in Egypt, and we visited Dendera. and there's Hathor Temple there. And what I love about that site is you've got massive scale, massive blocks.

Yet you also have like these subterranean very intricate passageways with incredible small detail. And so that kind of reminds me of meat level where you've got some of these huge megalithic blocks under the ground. you've got ruins of some massive pillars still standing upright, which clearly look like they predate the other stuff above ground. And then you've got this intricate fretwork detail that is just precision and beautiful. And so I just like the mix. We don't just have big, but we've got intricate precision. Incredible sight.

Anything else you want to tell us about Mitla, Marco? Because I also want to ask you about these Tijuana-style megalis you guys discovered in Mexico. Yes. So right now, as I said, we conducted this first season of geophysical study at Meat Lab last year. This year, we're going to be back on site in September to conduct a second phase, the second season of research, which is going to focus on some of the other groups of structure. Right now we have very solid evidence of the existence of vast subterranean chambers underneath the church. Now we want to confirm what is the extent of these chambers, whether these tunnels

that we have identified at very great depth going down over 12, down to 18 meters below ground, which is almost 50 or 60 feet below ground. So we're talking about almost a six-story building underground, whether they extend much farther than the area that was surveyed during the first season. So that's the reason why we're going to be scanning also some of the other groups of structures that include some of the earliest buildings at Midler. There is a massive pyramid which in ancient times was used as a temple of the sun, which is presently called the Adobe Group.

It actually has a colonial church built on top. We will be scanning that pyramid to see if there are any subterranean chambers, if there is any connection with the other tunnels. And our hope is that with this second season, we should be able to identify some potential entrances, some potential access points. They may have been blocked during antiquity

or during the colonial period. They would give us access to these sub-executive. of the Iranian network. So these Zapotex, again, their oral traditions and legends say that this was an entrance to the underworld. Now, tell us a little bit about who the Zapotex were. What time frame were they here? And then is there any truth to this underworld?

And does that have any connection to these Catholic churches being built on top of all of these sites, not just in Mexico, but around the world. Tell us your thoughts on that. Well, the Zapotech were one of the oldest and most advanced Mesoamerican civilization. The origins of the Zapotec civilization, they date back almost 3,000 years. They were in fact almost contemporary with the Olmex. And they built impressive the sites, some very fascinating, very extensive mountain top sites in Wahaka, like Montalbana, for instance. Mitlam is generally considered to have originated as a Zapotech site and then to have been later occupied by the Mistak,

which was another civilization that existed in the area, but the origins of the site are Zapotech. Now, when we talk about these traditions about the underworld, clearly the site of Midland, Parlorisian, why it was so important in pre-Hispanic times. is that it was considered to be a century dedicated to the gods of the underworld. It was a burial place for Zapotech royalty, for Zapotech Elita. And it was believed that the entrance to the Zapotech underworld, which was called the Leobar,

was physically located at Mitla Pra in some Vasta underground cavern. Now we're able to recover a very race, document from the 1600s written by a Dominican father, Father Francisco de Bourgoa, was at this time the general inquisitor of Oaxaca, where he relates about the discovery by Spanish priests of a set of crits and what he calls subterranean labyrinth underneath the site of Mitla. What Burgot describes is essentially an arrangement of several subterranean chambers that contained the tombs of the high priests and the kings of Mitla and the whole Zapotec region. So confirming this idea that Mitla was the burial place for Zapotech royalty and Zapotech nobility.

And what is most interesting about Borgoa's account is that you also mention one chamber, the deepest chamber actually, that connected by means of a stone door with a vast, the subterranean cavern, which was itself considered to be the entrance to the underworld. And this is very similar to what the geophysical scans show. They actually seem to, they actually show four large voids underneath the church connected with a larger central chamber, central void, which would be a chamber with the approximate dimensions of a four. 15 by 10 meters or about 45 by 30 feet.

So we're really talking about a very large chamber with the roof possibly supported by monolithic columns or pillars. And what you can see is a vertical shaft that shows up very clearly in the geophysical scan that continues further down to what appears to be the mouth of a cavern. So that would confirm again the account of Bugoa. And we are all very excited about what we may find in these subterranean chambers. If Progressive County is accurate, we may find royal tombs or priestly tombs in these chambers

and potentially many still intact artifacts from the Zapatite civilization. That is so fascinating. A couple more questions popped into my head when you were talking there. One is, will these subterranean tunnels be clear to? enough eventually to where you could actually go down in there yourself? That's what we hope. Actually, one good piece of news from the geophysical survey is that at least the larger chambers, they appear to be mostly free of debris.

So they seem to be still pretty much intact, at least from a structural point of view. And part of that may be due to the fact that they are very massively built of stone, as I mentioned before, they're probably megalithic subterranean chambers. So this gives us confidence that these voids are actually accessible and they can be explored. Now, before anyone can actually enter these chambers, what we propose is that we insert some endoscopic cameras, so drilling holes, probably, given also the depth at which these chambers are located, so we can get better sense of the space, the size, the dimension, and possibly the content of these chambers before any excavation is attempted. Can you say again this guy's name in the 1600s who wrote

about this site? Yes, his name was Francisco de Bourgoa. It was a Dominican priest. I was general inquisitor of Wahak and he wrote in 1674. However, he had access to documents that dating back probably to the mid- or late 1500s about an inquisitorial trial that was celebrated at Mitla, where Spanish priests were called in to investigate claims that the local inhabitants were still practicing the old Zapotech religion in this subterranean temple. That's how they discovered the entrance to these underground chambers. Now, you also ask about the connection between the church and the ruins. What you find that Mitla is at many other ancient sites and not only throughout Mesoamerica, but throughout the ancient world, is that the Catholic faith always tried to appropriate some

of these earlier religious places, some of these earlier cult sites. And so in the case of Mitla, it only makes sense to assume that the Catholic Church of Mitla was built on top of the most important, the most sacred temple of the ancient city, which is actually what we find in the foundations of the church. You see these massive monolithic stone blocks that were reused as part of the foundations of the church, particularly the abse of the church, appears to have been built using these massive monolithic lintels that may weigh between 10 or 15 tons, that we believe are part of the original megalitic construction that existed there that somehow communes. communicated with these subterranean chambers.

And no, weren't some of these Catholic structures being built on top of these ancient ruins so that they could go down and find whatever might have been inside, correct? Yes, yes, that's the idea. Actually, what Borghoa mentions in his account is that when the Spanish uncovered these chambers, either for fear, keep in mind that at the time, the area had just been recently. conquered by the church and by the Spanish conquistadors. And so what Burgos says is that they basically just sealed off the entrances and built their church on top. So it doesn't sound like they went on to destroy the structures.

In fact, what we find admitted is that many of the structure were not destroyed. They were so solidly built, they were just reused by the Spanish later on. And what Burgos says is that because the cavern was so vast and for fear of getting lost, that these Spanish priests upon exploring just a very small section of this subterranean labyrinth, they went back and simply walled up and blocked all the entrances later building the church on top. So this gives us hope that many of the artifacts, many of the objects were originally contained these chambers, may still be there. So we may still find important evidence of the rituals, of the cults that were practiced during Zapotech times. Do you guys have a guesstimate on if everything goes well,

how soon do you think you might be able to get down into those chambers to find the artifacts? Well, I do expect, as I said, this year in September, we're going to be back on site to complete the geophysical survey. This will hopefully give us more information about potential access points or identifying what would be the best location for conducting some small-scale drilling or perforation and for inserting a camera into these passages. Of course, it will probably take a while, I would say optimistically, maybe between one or two years before we can get other permits in the openizations to actually conduct the drilling. It's not only about the Ina, the National Mexican Institute of History and Anthropodians, about the local community.

Keep in mind that this church is still a very active, cold place. Mitla, the archaeological site itself is very much in the middle of the modern town of Midland. So also need to be careful, we need to be respectful of the beliefs of the local population, do that in a way that it is acceptable to the local community. But I do expect that we may get some news and maybe some images of these chambers probably within the next two or three years. Exciting, exciting.

Marco, what I love about your research in particular is just when I think I've seen everything there is to see of ancient architecture, you every couple of years blow my mind with something brand new that I've never seen. And so a handful of years, I think it was back around 2018, you shocked to me with showing images of this cruciform chamber of, was it Garun? Is that what it's called? It's widowering. And this is like a literal cross that you see embedded in the top of this hill with full-on

megalithic mortarless joinery, again like you'd see in Peru. and if I remember right, you said this chamber was actually considered lost for quite a while. Yes. And then you and maybe some others in a modern day sense, basically you rediscovered this thing. And if you're watching by video on Spotify here or YouTube, I'm going to show you these images. If you're just listening, I'll have links to these in the show notes. You can click. But tell us a little bit about this cruciform.

chamber and then after that tell us about the Tijuana Bolivia style megalis you found in Mexico both are incredible yes well so about the the chamber of Guirun this is actually a site which is located only a few kilometers four or five kilometers to the east of Mitla so it's very close to to Mitla shows the same type of megalithic stonework of megalitic architecture now which is unique both is a stone chamber at Guaroon is the fact that it was first discovered and excavated by Marshall Saville in 1902 and then it was apparently lost for decades until it was in a way like rediscovered just in the early 2000

there was among the first to document that site in modern times. It's a very impressive site to me it's probably one of the most impressive and remarkable megalitic architectures in all of Mexico, as you will say, it's built with stone blocks that are up to six or seven meters long, the weight in excess of 30, up to 50 tons. And keep in mind that we run was a relatively small satellite site of Mitla. And so if these newly discovered chambers at Mitla were really like the real deal, really the main tempo of that civilization, we can only imagine their structure to be at least as impressive. as that chamber of Gueroon.

Actually do expect that most of what we will uncover in Mitla under the church will closely mirror the same type of architecture of this chamber, this cruciform chamber and these other subterranean chambers at Wyrun and the other nearby size. Amazing. Most people familiar with megaliths and ancient architecture are familiar with the mind-blowing stone blocks at T1 and Puma Punku in Bolivia. I mean, these things feature precision edges, drill holes, and really just have that unique look that is different than what you'd even see in Peru, what you see in Bolivia, has that unique look. Will you discovered, and your team, I think it's this ARCS project, right?

Yes. Just a couple of years ago, two years ago, these blocks in, again, we're talking about. about Mexico that look almost identical to what you might see in Bolivia, Tijuana. So tell us about that discovery, that site, and what you did with those blocks. Yes, there was a very unexpected find for me and quite literally in my backyard almost. It's very close up actually to where I live. It's a site called Samigali Stapan. And the fascinating thing about this site is that there is almost no documentation of these megalitic stone blocks. Now, to give you a little bit of context, a little bit of history about the site, back in 1959, two American archaeologists, Charles Wiki and Modi Bullington visited the site,

and also encountered these massive megalitic stone blocks with precision. style carvings, a very bold geometric style, it also immediately reminded them of South American stonework. They ended up publishing an article in American Antiquity, which is a very prestigious Cambridge Journal of Archaeology in 1959, titled an Andian influence in Central Mexico. What is suggested in that article is that these are stones, these monoliths reflected an artistic tradition that was not indigenous of Mexico,

but actually came from South America, that they belonged to a yet unknown civilization that existed in central Mexico, probably thousands of years ago. Now, Wiki and Bullington were completely discredited after publishing this article, because Mexican archaeologists completely rejected their claims. actually most Mexican archaeologists suggested that these slabs were in fact colonial in origin. They were manufactured quite recently. They were in fact modern. And these on the basis of the fact that the style of the carving was too precise. There was no way, according to these scholars that examined the slabs,

that they could have been created with simple stone tools without the use of hard metal tools, of steel and modern type of tools in the pyramid. And so for over 50 years, these slabs were completely forgotten. They were just dismissed as modern colonial artifacts. And this was until two of these slabs were discovered in the late 1990s within an archaeological context. There was excavations conducted at Samiglistham, that uncovered two megalitic stone slabs identical to the ones reported by the American archaeologist in the 50s,

within a sealed chamber under a pyramid at the site of San Miguel Estapan that was dated, I think, conservatively to 700 CE. Now, the interesting aspect about the slabs, however, in the chamber where they were found, is that these looked more like a cachet, meaning like a place where already during antiquity, several artifacts like these sluts, statues and sculptures were stored, perhaps in order to preserve them for future generation or as relics in secret object. But there is evidence that the sluts were in fact much, much older. They were already heavily eroded, heavily damaged by the time they were buried. So this suggests that these slats may be in fact much, much older.

Now, since then, with the ARCS project, we have been able to uncover and do document, working very closely with the local site director, Victor Osir, and the Secretary of Culture of the State of Mexico, over 20 of these megalitic stoneslads, over a relatively small area, mostly concentrated around the site and the village of San Diego, And we have recently uncovered two, well, I would say, really three finds that I think are among the most impressive, the most remarkable artifacts that I've ever seen anywhere in Mexico. One is a massive basalt stone slab, probably three to five tons in weight. It was broken quite recently, unfortunately by treasure hunters, believing there was gold. or some precious metals or stones inside the slab.

So it was broken into three pieces. We're able to successfully recover the three pieces that reassembled the stone slab, which is now on display in the site museum of San Miguel, Stapen. And just recently, a few months ago, in fact, in May, we recovered a second slab that was accidentally uncovered during agricultural works at another small,

small site called San Francisco Los Nopal. It's just a few kilometers from San Miguel Lik Stapan. Another beautiful slab carved in, we're still not sure if the sun is undesite or basalt. We're still conducting petrographic exams on the stone. It's clearly a very hard stone that is non-local to the region with the same kind of perfect geometric carving. So that slum will also recover and we created actually a permanent structure for it to be displayed and preserved. And the third find is that of a megalithic stone quarry. We're still exploring, we're still investigating, where we found a massive 15-ton stone slab there, which is still in the process of excavation.

So it was probably a semi-finished or yet unfinished stone slab that shows evidence of what you may call scoop marks on that slab that show what type of technique was probably used for carving it, which again suggests that the people that carved this slab had access to a set of tools to stoneworking techniques very similar to what you find at other magnetic sites in South America at Tijuana Kuhatou or in Egypt as well where you find. find very similar marks on the stones, this very peculiar scoop marks, very precisely cut, angles, perfectly flat stone surfaces. This is the same we find as some Gaelic Stappan.

To my knowledge, this is the only site in Mexico that displays this type of precision megalitic engineering. You also pointed out before in an article you wrote from megalithic marvels.com, and I'll link it, five megalithic mysteries of Mexico. And in it, you hit on the amazing site of Tio Tewa Khan. And you write that there's evidence that an immense megalithic structure may have once stood in the area now occupied by the pyramid of the feathered serpents. And you provided pictures that show, I believe, on the backside, one of the back sides of the pyramid, these huge blocks. that are just strewn everywhere that look quite different and even much larger than what the main pyramid was built out of.

Tell us a little bit about Teotihuacan and how it might be older than we've been led to believe. Well, Teotihuacan, of course, is one of the most fascinating archaeological sites in Mesoamerica. It was home to these enormous ancient metropolis that flourished almost 2,000 years ago with massive pyramids. of the sun, the moon. However, when you look at the architecture of Teotihuacan, it mostly consists of relatively small stones cemented together, Adobe. So even though the architecture is clearly impressive, the stonework itself is very crude and quite, quite primitive, in fact, with one notable exception, which is these huge stone blocks that lie scatter all around the Pyramid of the Pyrgyther Serpents. Now, when archaeologists excavated at the Pyramid of Federal Serpent, they uncovered an earlier pyramid underneath.

They recovered also dozens of very large megalitic stone blocks. They were later reused as part of the filling of these later pyramid. It was constructed at the site. Now, we don't know where exactly these huge megalitic stone blocks came from. But what is remarkable about them is that they're very precisely calculated. They are all produced of very hard stones like undesigned and basalt. And they clearly like scattered all around as if they had been either part of some structure. There was later dismantled, that was later demolished, so that they were reused by the later inhabitants of Teotihuacan for building their pyramids for building their structure.

So this would suggest to me that the earliest, later. of Teotihuacan because as many other sites across Mesoamerica, Teotihuacan was built in several different stages. There are many layers, many cities almost built one on top of each other. That this earliest construction layer of Teotihuacan was megalitic. There was a megalitic city, a megalitic buildings that existed at the site that later were dismantled, reused by the later inhabitants and occupants. about some of the summit. Marco, you wrote a book not long ago called the Empires of Atlantis, the origins of ancient

civilizations and mystery traditions throughout the ages. What a title. I love that. So you wrote this book, you're an author. You live in Mexico, and we're talking about the megalith foundations that predate a lot of the other architecture. I know you grew up in Italy. You've seen the megaliths there at all those cool sites. You were recently in Lebanon visiting Balbeck and Petra. So you've been all over the world. You've seen these sites. You wrote this book. And I definitely want to promote your book and I'll link to it so people can buy it. But kind of give us in a nutshell your belief system on this ancient civilization that seems to have been connected all over the world before some ancient cataclysm. What was it like? What are your

thoughts? I'd love to hear that. Sure. So the reason why I wrote the book is to present these theory, these hypotheses of a global prehistoric, megalithic civilization. So a global seafaring culture that spread agriculture as well as megalithic building, advanced. astronomy, mathematics, architecture all over the world, which we may identify with the civilization of Plato's Atlantis, essentially. What I present and they discuss in the book is the evidence for ancient megalitic civilizations from both sides of the Atlantic. You mentioned a number of sides in Egypt in Lebanon, in other parts of the old world,

as well as in the New World, in Mexico, in South America. how these cultures were connected in ancient times. Actually, one of the hypotheses that they present in the book is that all these different megalitic building cultures from both the old world and the new world, they had a common origin from now lost sunken mid-Atlantic continent. It was the progressive sinking of these mid-Atlantic landmass over thousands, if not tens of thousands of years, that prompted different ways of migrations on both sides of the Atlantic, which in turn triggered these flourishing of civilization, both in the old and in the new world. Let's go back to Mexico real quick.

So I know you are well-versed in Omec culture, and I'm so fascinated by the giant heads of the Omex. And all of these figurines we've seen in the museums with the elongated skulls, and features that you wouldn't think are of Mexican origin, right? Tell us your thoughts on the Olmex. I think we're still very much tied to some very antiquated views of the origins of civilization in Mesoamerica. Even the idea that the Olmex are the mother culture of Mesoamerica,

I think that's an idea that needs to, be discussed and challenged in a way as evidence for even earlier Mesoamerican civilization is coming to light. Actually, much of my research is focused on uncovering the origins of Mesoamerican civilization. Not only on the Gulf Coast, where of course you have this very impressive ormec finds with the giant stoneheads, impressive sites like Lamenta, San Lorenzo, but mostly in the highlands of Central Mexico. I do believe that the origins of Mesoamerican civilization must be sought, not from the coast, but in the highlands of Morelos, Guerrero, the Central Mexico State.

But there are some impressive and very little known sites that are megalithic and may, in fact, predate the later on development on the coast. So this is actually a hypothesis that I'm working on, will be the subject of a future book. Now, as you talk specifically about the Omecs, there are many fascinating aspects about Omec culture. For once, they were the first, at least that we know of, the first civilization to use the Mesoamerican calendar.

They developed these extremely sophisticated system for counting time. They introduced the concept of zero. many of these inventions that are generally attributed to the mayas are in fact of Olmec origin, including the very origin and the very development of Mesoamerican writing. And there is still there are an unresolved question about the genetic or ethnic origin of the omics. For longer people had speculated that because of the traits, just the physical traits of the giant omex stone heads they may have had some connection with the old world with africa maybe uh

and i think this is a very real possibility and it would go even further than that i think there is evidence from many archaeological sites in mexico not only the gulf coast but also the central mexican highlands wahaka that ancient mexico was much more similar to a melting in both of cultures, of different ethnicities, where, of course, you had, would we identify today as the Mesoamerican Indians, but then you also had other ethnicities there. When you find portraits, for instance, sites like Montalban, of people that are clearly depicted and portrayed as a Semitic,

almost looking like Egyptians or Europeans or Africans, that suggests a much broader network of contacts and the interactions between ancient Mesoamerica and the old world. All over Mexico, as well as in many parts of Central and South America, you find very similar traditions that talk about the arrival of gods like Esalcote, like Culcan and Viracocha in South America or Tunupa, that came from across the sea and brought civilization, They brought agriculture, the broad knowledge of sculpture, painting, the calendar, mathematics, astronomy, megalitic architecture. So the question we should be asking is who are these people?

Where did they come from? Where did they go? And is it possible to uncover evidence of these migrations in Mesoamerica? In all your research, Marco, have you uncovered elongated schools of any kind in Mexico? have you seen any, and do you think they could be related to what we see in Paracas, Peru? Yeah, there are many examples in Mexico, pretty not as extreme as what you find in Peru, but there is definitely evidence from Totiwakan, from the Maya culture, from the Gulf Coast civilization, the Omex, that all these Mesoamerican cultures practiced

some form and to varying degrees of cranial deforms. Now, there's always this question, particularly the most extreme paracas skulls and the elongated skulls, as to whether that was the result of artificial cranial deformation, or this was just a genetic and inherited trait of these individuals. And I do think, and this is also something that I discuss in my book, that what we may be looking at with, against some of these most, extreme elongated skulls in South America, maybe actually not simple cranial deformation, but actually influence from different human species perhaps that may have migrated to those lands, either from Atlantis or from some other now vanished sunken landmass. When it comes to all the ancient sites in Mexico, do you have a site that is your favorite or one that fascinate you most?

Well, right now, I would say Mitla and San Miguel Xta Panis are probably like the two sides that fascinate me the most. But if I have to pick one site, I would say Xochalco. He's also a site that covered in a recent Netflix documentary with Graham Henko.

What I find fascinating about the site is this set of vast release that decorate the pyramid of the feathered serpents period of Ketzalcoat. Exochalco, which, as I suggest, in the book, as I also suggest in the Netflix documentary, I do believe they tell a story about the arrival of these gods to Mesoamerica. They tell the story of the origins of Mesoamerican civilization,

which is very similar to Plato's Atlantis' story, to what we read in the Elfou Building texts in Egypt, for instance, about how these gods came and brought civilization. They brought agriculture, the broad knowledge of agriculture, agriculture, advanced mathematics, and this is what we find depicted on the Pyranocicago. We have the depiction of a Catholicism whose survivors then came to Mesomerica, they came to Mexico, and they established the first cities. The Mexico version of the deity is Quetzikotl?

Yes, the feather serpent. And wasn't he even considered to be like a white-skinned, bearded entity? Yeah, there are some accounts. I know the subject is somehow controversial, but most colonial accounts that we have, of course, were based on earlier Aztec and Mesoamerican traditions. They depict Kezalkoatle as a tall, bare-dea individual. So there is this almost foreign element about Kezal-Koatla, which is again reinforced by this tradition to talk about how. Ketal Kotla right from the sea and then he left that again on a boat towards the east. So this suggests that whoever these people were, they came from somewhere else. And the direction of their travel, as is suggesting all these documents, almost always from the east, so from the Atlantic Ocean. It's fascinating to me the parallels of all these ancient civilizations that seem to talk about this golden age or Atlantic civilization and these hybrid-like entities that appeared, right?

These demigods and how they relate to what the book of Enoch describes of the watchers coming down and breeding with human women, creating this race of Nephilim, which Genesis 6 actually mentions. And so it's exciting to me that even now in 2003 on Netflix, this kind of stuff is being talked about with the ancient apocalypse documentary with Graham and you. And there's just so many people talking to me about the cover of ancient history that used to know nothing about this or weren't even interested, but because they've seen that show now. and other channels like this in your research people are really awakening to man history goes way back further than we've been led to believe

and it seems like they definitely had some form of lost ancient technology and there was some crazy cataclysms that wiped out civilization and then and then we reset so exciting times to be alive in the history world. I want to wrap it up. Where can people find your book, the Empires of Atlantis? Where can they find that book? Well, you can find the book at all major bookstores also online on Amazon. It's published by Inner Traditions. I also invite you to follow my research and particularly the work they were doing with the ARCS project, with the ARCS Foundation in Mexico. Our website is at www. Rx Project like ARX Project.org, where you will find more information about the research

at Mitla, it's Amigliddi Stappan, and many of these are fascinating sites around Mexico. You can also follow us on Facebook at RX project MX. And on Patreon, we actually also have a Patreon page if you would like to support and help us fund our research where we constantly publish new information, new findings, research reports, which will be building a comprehensive library, a digital library, including photo galleries, hundreds now 3D models of artifacts and the whole archaeological sites in Mesoamerica. So make sure you check it out. And if you want to support our research with your donation, you can do so on past.

on our fundraising page. Definitely go get Marco's book on Amazon or wherever it's sold and definitely follow the ARCS project. Again, Marco said they're on Facebook and also go to the website you're seeing and follow and keep up to date with this exciting research. And if you can at all, give a donation. This is important work that's really, to me it's really groundbreaking. that we can be a part of something like this and follow the progress, see the photos,

and know that it's all being done in a way that's not going to damage anything, but it's going to reveal ancient secrets. So, Marco, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you for your great research. And for all the blogs you write and all the interviews you do, you've really brought awareness to the, the mystery of ancient Mexico in ways I think nobody else really has, at least in modern times. So thank you so much.

Well, thank you. Thank you, Derek. It's always a pleasure.