Megalithic Marvels - The 3 Fingered Nazca Mummies, Hybrids or Hoax? / Will Brown

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

In 2017 a strange discovery shocked the world when an alleged humanoid mummy was unearthed in a cave near Nazca, Peru. Possessing strange eye sockets, an elongated skull and three fingers, it quickly mesmerized hopeful believers. But was it actually real? As time passed interest in the controversial mummy faded. But then in 2024, Mexican journalist and UFO enthusiast José Jaime Maussan, presented half a dozen more of these alleged “alien mummies” to Mexico's congress, and a firestorm of interest in the topic erupted again. In this episode I sit down with Will Brown - a former history teacher turned explorer, researcher, and now author of the book “Enigmatic North America: Legends, Oddities and Controversial history" to break down the truth regarding these entities. In this interview, Will shares about his expeditions to Peru to investigate these strange mummies where he attended the press conference, interviewed researchers and saw some of the mummies with his own eyes. Are these "alien mummies" elaborate hoaxes or real hybrid entities? Or, might they be something else altogether? Will breaks it all down.GET WILL'S BOOKJOIN ME ON A TOUR

Well, I am excited to be joined by a former history teacher turned explorer, who is also a researcher and the author of the book, Enigmatic North America Legends, Audities in Controversial History. I'm talking about Will Brown. Will, how are you, man? Doing great. Derek, thanks for having me here, longtime watcher and listener of the show. I've been following you on social media, I think, for a couple of years now.

your handle is Incredible History at InCred History like on Twitter and you're on YouTube Instagram and man you've just been posting stuff lately I was telling you that it's been catching my attention

namely the three-fingered humanoid petroglyphs in the NASCA area and then you had a bunch of videos and tweets and footage of regarding the

the controversial you a mummies of NASCA. And so that's the big topic that we're going to get into today, everybody, that you're going to want to stick around for is what is really going on with these alleged three-fingered mummies in NASCA. But man, I'm excited to have you. And I'm kind of getting to know you as we do this episode, since this is our first time. But let's give our listeners, our viewers, kind of a backstory of who you are.

Give us kind of the journey that took you from being a history teacher. and where was that at to being this ancient history explorer that's traveling the world now capturing all this footage? Yeah, so I taught history for eight years, economics and history. And so, you know, sometimes I'll get people that'll ask me, what's your background? Are you just some random guy? I'm like, well, yeah, but I was a history teacher for eight years, if that counts for anything. Not that it has to. We live in the age of information, you know, credentials, although I respect them and I respect the old way a lot because I do think there's something to like rigorous academic training and peer review and all that.

If you want to go explore these topics, you can be a welder. You just need passion and you need persistence and you need to know how to research on the internet and get out there, right? get out to these actual sites. So I grew up in Kansas. Kansas right in the middle of the country. People from Kansas just love history. Back in the day before the internet, all information flowed through Kansas from the west coast to the east coast, the northeast to the southeast, southwest to the northeast. And so I grew up in a weird little part of Kansas, like western Kansas. So I was near Colorado, New Mexico, all of that. And started having a fascination for petroglyphs in particular within the last 10 years i'd say anytime i'd go out to the southwest that's what i wanted to do i wanted to go

hunting for petroglyphs and um so you know i think it was covid 2020 the lockdowns happened and i was not about those and i bought a drone and took full advantage of the empty national monuments and national parks which were technically still open uh and my first big trip was to Chaco Canyon and then I went out to BLM Land, the Bureau of Land Management, where there are thousands of ruins and petroglyphs and just went on this incredible like month-long road trip. And it was like, I'm going to start a channel. Maybe I'll go out to the southeast and do, you know, poverty point.

So did poverty point, did all the mounds. And I was like, well, what's my channel going to be called? Incredible history. Just kind of a generic name. it ended up sticking i like the name and um thought about changing a few times i have changed it a couple times and i always change it back uh so um you know eventually i realized i had half a book of information that i had studied and kind of written about and uh did a long road trip from kansas down to wohaca mexico down to chiapas mexico like i drove my car down there and

And I went to all these sites, Mayan sites. I took like a seven-hour round-trip boat ride on the Guatemala and Mexican border to get to some of the most remote Mayan ruins possible. And I did that one for an episode called Refugees from Atlantis. America's Lost History, as told by Edgar Casey. And that episode blew up. They got like 250,000 views. It was the first time I had a video go niche viral.

I don't want to say I went viral, but like kind of. a niche viral and from there I was like I'm going to write a book I have enough for a book here and I wrote it and have been trying to make chapters and content from that book eventually made my way down to South America where I'm working on my second one and stumbled upon these mummies so I didn't mean to go on I kind of maybe too much background there but if you want we can go right into how I got involved with the mummies oh yeah yeah let's go for it. Because there's been so much controversy surrounding so-called mummies or the three-fingered

mummies, humanoid, whatever you want to call them. You got some people saying these are total fakes and scams and giving their proof. And there are some that are fakes and scams. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, you're right. And so people see those and then they just kind of throw everything in that bin of fakery, right? But then I've been seeing some of your post, and I always keep an open mind on this

stuff where I try to. And I've heard some stuff from Albarino as well. And I go, man, there's, there's something to this. So tell us kind of for people who might have missed the memo on this news that broke about the mummies, not so long, it'll kind of give us a little bit back story. And then your what you've seen, heard, and what you think is going on. So I met Timothy Alperino just down in Peru. We were there at the same time to see the mummy Maria.

I made a documentary last year called Show Me the Mummies as kind of a. joke of a title because I spent three months there and I never got to actually see the mummy. I was chasing, I was interviewing all these doctors, interviewing, you know, journalists that had been on the scene, Jaime Moussin and me, sorry, Muson and me did an interview together. And I put together this documentary, but at the end of it, I never saw a mummy. So I was like, I'm going to call this, show me the mommies. I finally got to see them this last April. And Timothy Alborana was on scene.

It was cool to see him and hear what he kind of had to think about it. I am just a full disclaimer, still not convinced that any of this is real. But it also, like, what do we mean by real? What do you mean by that? Because does real mean you're hoping they're aliens from another planet? Does real mean you think that they weren't hoaxed in modern time? Does real mean that something happened in ancient times? Because there are a couple scenarios here, or really, in my opinion,

you want to make it into a broad thing three scenarios that are possible and i'll just get into those right away and then i'll go to the backstory of how i got involved scenario number one is these are a hoax and um it would be one of the greatest hoaxes of all time if true that's part of the reason i wanted to come do this story because it was worth the story no matter what all three scenarios are incredible if this is a hoax it has fooled some incredible uh scientists some incredible forensic scientists, very smart people, and it's also fooled some Russian oligarchs that paid millions of dollars for a few of these.

Millions. And so number two, it's real. It's a being that is genuine, was born of this earth the way that we see. And when I say a bean, when I'm talking about, I'm talking specifically about Maria. that's not focused on the little ones right now. It's not focused on really any of the ones,

but Maria and Montserrat are the two that, in my opinion, I'm the most interested in. Maria is the one that's the most famous because she was originally, the one that was originally found. Montserrat's the one that has a fetus inside of it, that some people say the fetus has three fingers. I've talked to the American scientists,

and they're not convinced yet that the fetus has three fingers. They're also not convinced that it doesn't. They just want better images. in. So that would be the greatest biological, anthropological find of all time, maybe just the greatest find of all time. In the third scenario, this is some type of ancient ritualistic manipulation. This happened in ancient times, which would also, in my opinion, be one of the greatest anthropology discoveries of all time. I mean, for them to have the sophistication involved to do what they've done is unbelievable. So I got down there filming, I was doing a whole bunch of stuff in

Columbia, got to the airport in Lima. And while I was in the airport in Lima, I see flash across the screen. Hoax Mummies discovered at the airport in Lima. I don't know if you remember this happening about a year and a half ago. The airport in Lima confiscated some dolls that had obviously been manufactured with like chicken bones or something like that. And so I was like, oh, wow, this is, I wanted to study this when I was here. I would like to see more about just the origin story of this. And I contacted a few people on Twitter. Shout out to Gonzalo Chavez, who is just kind of a normal guy from the United States

that has a lot of passion about this topic and has been linking people like me to Jaime Mousan to the doctors out in Peru. And before I knew it, I had interviewed a doctor in Ika. named Dr. Urban Zuniga, who was also a dentist. He's both a medical doctor and a dentist. And what he told me was pretty shocking that some of these mummies had metallic and not the ones that they found at the airport,

which were obviously frauds, but the other ones had metallic rods, like metallic rods in them, that clearly had human organic tissue that had been ossified on there. So for ossification, and maybe I'm getting some science terms wrong, but basically for that to happen, whatever that was would have had to be alive. And he showed me pictures of it.

And it's on my, if you want to check it out, I have a YouTube video called Show Me the Mummies. Also, I've had a few reels specifically about this. And that blew my mind. he also pointed out that, you know, some of these things had eggs and that when they sent them to the labs, it was organic material. One of them had what was thought to be a liver. And so, you know, kept interviewing people, made the video, and then kind of went quiet on it for a while because actually, as much as I enjoy the topic, sitting on the fence in this topic has not been very fun. Both sides, you know, have not been very appreciative of my analysis of it.

There's one side that hardcore wants these to be, you know, the Ananaki or beans from another planet. There's another or underground. You know, some people think there's an underground citadel. There's a lot of stories with this. And then the other side is just, why are you even investigating this? You know, why are you even down there wasting your. time. I've been told by a number of people, you're wasting your time down there. And I wasn't wasting my time at all. It's one of the most fun things I've ever done. But at the end of the day,

I'd like to start with kind of maybe some things that are red flags to me. And then we can talk about the things that I'm like, yeah, no, I have no explanation for that either. And that's why this is interesting. Again, for people new to the subject, remind us, when were these first mummies alleged to have been discovered? I believe 2016 when Maria was discovered. I believe that one of the

founders of the Incari Institute, his name is Edward Valenzuela. And when I interviewed him, he said 2016, I believe. Okay. So, and the stories that they were found

in there's been a couple stories. It was an underground citadel, but we'll just call it an underground ground kind of cave and they were covered in this a type of mineral that's found in the earth that kept them very preserved and that's why they look white on the outside which is I think it's diatomaceous diatomaceous earth and so red flag number one and every time I bring this up no one really wants they always kind of have an excuse for this the proponents would do

themselves a big favor if they would show us where the site is. If we knew exactly where these were found and where they keep finding them, because more and more of these keep popping up, if these are genuine and they're not being Frankenstein manufactured in a lab somewhere, then that would be good to know. I think they say they don't want the ministry of culture to get involved and confiscate all this and covered up is the kind of explanation there the second big red flag is one i'm actually not the most comfortable talking about because i do visit peru a lot um but there is a dark side peru is you know peru's a fantastic place there is an underworld there uh that we'll call it a mafia that specifically profits on and uh

hoaxes or antiquities or grave robbing, which is no secret. I shouldn't say I'm scared. I shouldn't sensationalize it. People go, well, what's the incentive to hoax this? Why would somebody do that? It's all this work. And I'm like, well, two million bucks or a million bucks, pretty good incentive to do something like this, right?

I believe it was the Japanese and like the 1800s had some type of interest, not the Japanese, I shouldn't characterize all of them, but some kind of shaman priests and a certain Colt in Japan in the 1800s would do something similar they would manufacture and kind of manipulate and mutilate these old bodies and turn them into mummies you know it's not impossible that being said you know there's a let's talk about some of the unexplainable stuff first of all if you just go to tridactyls.org you can see some of the diacom scams scans, sorry, rather. And Maria in particular, you know, it's really hard to understand where the manipulation is.

Everybody says that, you know, the hands and feet have been manipulated. And of course, that would be the area because they have three fingers. And there is one doctor, I can't remember his name. I've tried to talk to him, but he doesn't want to talk to me, that points out possible manipulation. He says for sure manipulation on the third. thumb area. When I talked to the American scientists and their lawyer, they said the scans just aren't good enough yet. We need to get these things to the United States where we can have better laboratories. But if you go check out those scans, you know, Maria has large, large,

I guess you would call them like the eye socket. Maria also has 32 vertebrae, if I remember correctly and most humans have 33 it's not impossible for a human to have 32 but it is rare and maria does have 32 um the jaw on maria really protrudes including the mouth it's like a large protrusion um and so some people wonder if this is a genetic anomaly and i'm not a scientist i don't know but like i would you know it's such an extreme difference that that's kind of I'm skeptical on that one. So I guess my thoughts are it on, just to kind of summarize my thoughts, and now we have congressmen that are going and seeing these bodies.

I don't know if you saw that. I can't remember his name, but we have congressmen that are actually going and checking these things out. I feel like a wave three. I like to call it wave three. We had wave one peak in April of 2025 on interest in this topic. kind of dipped and I feel like a gigantic wave three is underway and that these are about to make a lot of headlines in 2025, 2006 and there is a lot of things that are still alarm bells to me.

But if it's the last thing I'll say, I think a couple things can prove this. they talk about DNA, you know, that the DNA analysis has been done. And I really would just like that to be done fully independent with these American scientists because DNA is weird. Second thing, if it's true that Montserrat has a little fetus inside of her that has three fingers, that would be a very interesting development. They claim there is. There's actually an image that kind of shows it. but did they draw it the way they wanted it to be drawn? And then the third thing, where is the site that these are being discovered at, supposedly?

Because there still is a lot of fakery and manufacturing going on. I know that for a fact. It doesn't mean all of them are. Maria in particular is very weird. It's hard to explain Maria. Yeah, while you were chatting, I was going through my blog, and I pulled up this article. Let me see if I can screen share real quick. I had written this.

Look at this. 2017, must have been shortly after the news broke the first time. You wrote this? Five strange oddities regarding the three-fingered NASCA humanoid. I since added that tour pick, but you can see here's what Will's talking about. That's Maria, right? Maria, and Maria has degraded significantly since this photo was taken. her face is starting to something's going on so yeah i remember when i first saw these i'm thinking man

that looks almost like paper mache like what's going on with these eyes here right but then what makes you really kind of think man there's got to be something to it possibly being real are these kind of x-rays of the bone structure yeah and there's even better ones right now um there's even there's there's full on 3D scans that show tissue slash ligament bone placement like perfectly if you go to tridactyls.org and yeah it's it's crazy the ocular part of the eyes do seem bigger than a normal person i think multiple scientists have said that and i'm not a scientist but um you know seeing maria and i'm going to get blamed for this i know but seeing maria in person and seeing how much she's kind of degraded a little bit.

Also makes me wonder, like, you know, is it because she was recently manufactured in 2016, like the outside part of them? Talking about the exterior. Proponents say, no, she's just not covered in the diatomaceous earth anymore. So she's now able to start to decompose more. So maybe. But also I'll say one thing, just when I was there,

there, she was smaller than I thought she was going to be. I always pictured Maria is kind of big. Like some of those pictures back in 2016 kind of make her look a little bigger. She's actually smaller than I thought she was going to be, but she does have a large elongated skull compared to the rest of her body. So one question I wanted to ask you, Will, is, okay, so the first discovery of these was 2016. And as I was looking at that article, yeah, I remember the buzz back in the day. But then what was it that made this resurface, you know, into big news last year and this year?

What was it that this other one you mentioned was discovered? So the big thing that made it resurfaced. And that's what my documentary kind of just focuses on the timeline and the story. So that's a good question. Is Jaime Mons and some of the Peruvian doctors made a presentation to the Mexican Congress in September of 2023, if I remember right. And it went viral. It was all over the news. It was all over late-night talk show hosts.

And they brought the little tiny ones, the little small ones, which, like I said, some of those are weird, too, because they got the metal implants. From there, Josh McDowell is a lawyer for the team of Dr. McDowell and some other forensic scientists from the United States. basically from the out of their own just curiosity and interest volunteered to go down and take a look and then Jaime mouse Mousan uh and joeus montia uh two guys i i really likes you know hemy mousan is a controversial character he's been involved in things that ended up not panning out before uh but um he really believes he's a real i i believe that 100% that he actually truly believes that and he had this big press conference in lema that i attended this was the highlight of my trip down there.

And during the middle of it, when they're announcing that all these American scientists are about to start digging into this and hopefully going to try to lobby for Peruvian Congress to allow some of these to go to the United States where they can properly, you know, be assessed in a proper lab. The Ministry of Culture raided, and it was like a full-on raid. they raided the press conference. And I captured it all on video. I was reporting live on the scene, kind of doing some like guerrilla journalism. You know, I pulled Jaime Muson away from like the actual like TV stations for a moment. It was like, Jaime, talk to the English audience. And he was talking to me and kind of had some videos go viral from that because it was just chaos.

And they were there hoping they could confiscate the mummies. But they didn't find them. They either got them out of the hotel in time or just didn't bring them. And that was a really funny development. Since then, the Ministry of Culture has backed down a little bit. The guy involved, I think his name is Flavio Estrada, or I believe that was his name. He ended up resigning for whatever reason. And there's new management there, if I remember right,

and they've actually been cooperating more with the University of Ica, who is kind of heading the research in this down there and then also storing a lot of these bodies. the University of Eco. That must have been a scene, by the way, where you're, so was like Jaime literally talking and these guys just burst through the door? Yeah. Well, yeah. In this case, it was Joes Montia, who has been the number one journalist on this down in Peru. He's been all over it. Shout out to Joe Spontia. He's a big time proponent. He believes this are real. But, um, uh, he was kind enough to grant me an interview when I was down there and he's been very helpful.

and he was given a presentation and during the middle of it they bust in and the lady takes the microphone from him i got it all on video she takes the microphone from them and is basically like we're here for the where are the mummies like i don't my spanish was a little rough at the time it's getting better i don't know exactly what she said but uh she got on the mic and then the crowd basically started doing her and uh harassing her a little bit there was this whole you know debacle and uh Yeah, it was quite the scene. And then I got a chance to actually, things calmed down. The press conference went on, and I got a chance to ask the American scientists some questions

about what they needed to see to confirm and deny the authenticity of these. So it makes you a wonder, though, if the ministry is busting in at this conference to confiscate the mummies, why would they do that if they were just hoaxes, right? well the answer to that would be if these are hoaxes serious crimes have been committed like people will go to prison in fact the person that supposedly found these that I don't actually think found these I think it's kind of just a front his name's Leandro or Mario he's been in and out of prison he's a genuine like Guacero he's a grave robber and I believe maybe recently had to go back and so

the Peruvian ministry of culture does not mess around with their anything antiquities. Like there are huge, huge consequences for sneaking artifacts out of the country. Somebody sold, you know, somebody sold, because at the end of the day, whether these are fake or not, they are genuine, they are genuine people. These are genuine bodies from a while ago. They're not, these aren't like recently, man, sorry, these aren't like recent. recently deceased people. These people died a long time ago. If you sold one of those for a million bucks to some Russian oligarch,

you're going to Peruvian prison. And so that would be the answer, I guess. What's the estimated date dating on these mummies? I want to say that at least 1,000 years. I'm just going to say that because I don't remember the exact date. But I want to say it's like somewhere between like 800 and 1,400 years. was the date that they radiocarbon dated. But once again, like, what are you,

if something's been Frankenstein, I guess basically with that proves is just that these are old bodies. The bodies are genuinely old. Like they're not recently deceased or animal bones, in particular with Maria. That's not an animal bone. It's a human or some type of being, you know, hominid. I want to show you and everybody watching another photo.

of a strange humanoid-looking mummified head that was found in Peru. You might have seen this. I don't think this has been lumped in with the mummies of the NASCA, but this has a similar look to Maria. Check this out. This is apparently found in a cave. Brian Forster did. He might have taken these photos,

but you can see the eye there is almost similar to Marias. It's got this weird shape. And you can see it's on the smaller side, right? Yeah. Underneath it, I mean, it's just strange. The eye and nose and mouth, you had mentioned was maybe one of the explanations of this that there was some ancient practice where they were taking bodies or body parts and doing their own Frankenstein, mummification, ritual thing. Right. Because if they were, that was another example of it almost, it looks like, right?

Yeah. But what's funny, though, or what's, I guess not funny, but just extraordinary is if I'm understanding the things, if I'm understanding things correctly, and some of this might just be speculation, but if it's true that there's organic tissue ossified to some of those metal rods, that would mean that this happened, if this ritualistic practice took place, it happened while they were alive. Or while something was alive. Because it takes six months for that ossification to happen. Like, you know, a dentist will tell you that. My good friends of dentists, like, they see it all the time.

So when they do some type of dental work and they have to put some stuff in there, I don't know, it's like a, you know, a bridge or whatever. it takes six months to fully ossify to the bone or to the organic tissue. So that's really strange. How do you explain that? So was there metal found in both of these mummies? Multiple. So some of the smaller mummies have had metal. And then Montserrat, I believe Montserrat and a few more have metal on the head.

And I was watching the Alchemy podcast. with Jesse Michaels. No, sorry, it was the Joe Rogan podcast with Jesse Michaels. And he was talking about how some of this metal is extremely rare, wasn't even known about until, you know, within the last couple hundred years. The metal thing is very odd. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, when people are saying, why are you, why do you even care about this?

And it's like, because it's weird. Like, if this is a hoax, this is a good one. This is maybe, if this is a hoax, this is one of the best of all time. Is the metal, is it just inserted randomly, or is there any order to it? Like, you know where it shows the three fingers attaching to the hand? Is there a metal where the fingers attach? No, there's no metal that I've ever heard of anywhere near the hands or the feet. The metal and the small one was perfectly square in the chest.

It's a little beam, a little rod. the metal and the large one, I believe Bon Serrat, if I'm wrong on that, sorry, there's like a hundred of these mummies, is right at the forehead, right in the middle. And then there's some in the back of the head as well. And, you know, the, I don't, you know, they practiced, I can't remember what it was called. I was going to talk about this with me.

We talked about the Chachapoyas, but they practiced the ancients in Peru and even Europe and all across the world practiced this thing where they would make holes in their head to kind of release pressure from the brain. Do you remember what that's called? I can't remember the exact terminology for it. Trepidation. Trepidation.

That's what it is. So another theory, again, I guess before I say this, so the proponents who believe these are real, what are the top three or four things that they would evidences they give for why these are real? And then share with us for the people that say these are fakes, what are the top three or four things they give. So for the proponents, they'll just kind of tell you, show us where the manipulation is on Maria. We got the scans.

Show us where the manipulation is. And there is one doctor that, in my opinion, is given the best maybe possible explanation for the hand. We'll talk about that in a second. But it is hard just for like someone that doesn't maybe know what they're looking at as much like me. I'm like, you know, where can I find a manipulation? And the American doctors on scene, some of the best forensic scientists in the world,

Dr. McDowell, who was the head of the Denver, he was like the head Denver corner for 20 years and, you know, worked at a high level. I don't think he at first glance was able to find anything. Otherwise, he would have said it, right? He would have said, hey, this is, something's off here. They haven't said that yet. They haven't said either way, to be clear. So the top doctors that have studied these have not come out and said this is a fake. In my opinion, yes, when you're talking about top doctors. There's been other like, there's been other, oh, you call them forensic anthropologists that have said, well, it looks like a llama school for the smaller ones. And I'll get playing for this once again.

But in my opinion, he's right. Some of the smaller ones do look like a manipulated back of a llama school. but you can't explain that for Maria. Like Maria is not a llama school. That's a, and I've heard people say that. People are kind of just starting to parrot things now. Oh, it's a llama school.

No, Maria is not a llama school. It's a human skull. So the other one would be, Maria has 32 vertebrae and not 33. The other one would be, they would say that the DNA analysis proves that a certain large percentage of the DNA, is not known from this earth.

I'm not a DNA scientist, so I, you know, and DNA is weird. DNA's weird, but things get contaminated, especially if somebody is Frankenstein, these, like, things are going to get contaminated. So I would love to see more DNA tests happen. Specifically, I would, and people get mad because they're like, you know, they think that, you know, there's no difference between America. doctors and and Peruvian doctors and while that's the case there is a huge difference between laboratories and some of this they did send I believe to

Europe but I would like to see maybe it's just my bias I would like to see a good independent DNA analysis in America with these so the other the other one would be the red flags for me personally it's where did you find these why are these selling for millions of dollars who's making money on these peru is known for hoaxes like if any if it was going to happen anywhere you know peru there's an industry for hoaxes in peru um it's been going on for a hundred years and then the other one would be we know for a fact that there is fakes like we know for a fact there are and they would say those were just souvenirs that they were trying to sell in Mexico.

And it's like, yeah, well, the big ones maybe are just souvenirs that they're trying to sell to Russian oligarchs. So there's some red flags when it comes to the money involved, not knowing where the site is. And then also just kind of, you know, the whole thing is there's a, like I said, there's a, like I said, there's a underworld component in Ica that just makes some of this, very shady. Yeah. So my thoughts go to the reason, I guess, people like me have an open mind to these and don't just automatically dismiss it is we already have so many crazy specimens in Peru that we know are real.

I'm talking about the world's biggest elongated schools right there in Ika. I just saw them. Right. And these things are naturally elongated skulls. I've seen them up close. they were, I believe, the elite ruling class, you know, two, three thousand years ago down there in Paracas. The rest of the general population was trying to look like them. And so they were cradle headboarding their skulls.

So it's multi-layered, right? Right. So you can't just put it all into one category. Yes, there's way more cradle headboarded skulls than naturally elongated skulls because that was a general population. But then you have the natural elongated skulls, which have missing sagittal sutures, holes in the head, like you've mentioned. Even there's tiny holes in some of them, form in magnums in the back of the head, huge eye sockets, you know, larger jaw bones.

These things are real. And you can see them with your own eyes. And so we've already got those anomalies, right? Yeah. And so, and then you add to that, have you seen the Waiky, humanoid up there, south Ocisco. But it's one of the, it's the one that really looks like the alien. It's really yellowish and it's, you know, of the mummified version, so it still has some skin on it.

Yeah. But the last point I was making is we not only have these elongated skulls. We've got all these mummies, even found in Bolivia of newborns with huge elongated skulls. So I believe these were some type of hybrid. and so these were living beings coming out of the womb with these huge skulls. So the point is, is it that big far of a jump that we would find possible humanoids with three fingers? To me, in my little mind, it's not that big of a jump. Yeah.

But at the end of the day, we want to know the truth. And if they are hoaxes, then I want to know. I've watched all those Brian Forrest videos. I've talked with Georgios Suclos before that sent me some, amazing stuff on, you know, exactly what you're talking about with the sutures and the elongated skulls. And it's kind of crazy that, you know, anthropologists, and I'm sure they are, but I guess it's crazy that publishers aren't dying to get their hands on more research

on those specifically, right? At the end of the day, I still just have a hard time with the fact that the person that the proponents say found these Mario is a known grave robber which I guess that is to be fair that is who would find this I guess right like they're not going to be careful

about any excavation they just can go anywhere they can find stuff but my point is that you know it's it was somebody that profits off of selling things that doesn't mean these are fake but 100% if you're a proponent and you just kind of blow that off

as like, oh, whatever, like, you're not being, you know, objective. Like, you should really consider that. Because there, the whole story stinks. That being said, Maria and Montserrat are very interesting. I do believe that, though, that there's good evidence that there's been a lot. Well, we, for a fact, the ones that were caught in the airport, which they're just souvenirs or dolls, okay. But there has been a lot of effort to manufacture. other ones.

You know, so there's just, at the end of the day, can we send one of these to the United States and get a proper analysis on it? I guess still even then people would say it was a cover up if they came out and said these were, you know, clearly manufactured. So this might actually just be one of those stories that never ends. This actually, I think that's like kind of what's going on in 2025 with the internet. We all kind of are able to decentralize like our little clicks that we're in and and stories. And we don't just have one television telling us what the truth is, which is a good thing.

I think that's a good thing. But as a result, a lot of these things will never completely go away. There will always be, you know, someone that believes otherwise with this particular story. Here's Waiky, the humanoid. I don't want to show this to you real quick. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, I've seen this one. Wow. Look at the eye sockets on that thing.

Yeah, that thing has a huge skull. And you can see the hole in the top of the head. I always thought that was just due to, you know, age and weathering. The Inca legends actually state how a lot of these malchies, as they called them, these mummies, had surgically inserted gold artifacts. put in the top of their heads when they were alive goes back to kind of the metal in the mummies, right? Yeah. To help them better connect with the gods as they almost hint at a telepathic ability.

So crazy stuff going on in Peru, man. We got a little bit more time. If you could pull up Montserrat and ask a mummy. Pull that up. It's got a gold. And this is what makes me think they really are. genuine and from the ancient times it's it's just Google image monster rot nasca mummy and you'll see a big one with a gold insert right in the middle of the forehead you see that gold piece right in the

middle of the head dude okay this is the one that has a fetus inside of it that some people think from images the fetus has three fingers and if that's the case, you know, how would you fake that? How would you fake that one? You're saying that is a piece of gold inserted in its head? I don't know if it's specifically gold or not. But it's a stone, of some sort. And it looks like it's gold. I mean, it looks gold. I didn't even know that piece about this. And you say that right after I shared the legend. So that is fascinating. And that's why I interrupted you. It's like, we got to talk about this one. that definitely has a bit of an elongated skull

for sure and it's got what three fingers and three toes correct and the biggest one a fetus inside of it that possibly has three fingers as well you know the monster art doesn't look all that different from this and we know this one for example

is real seen pictures of brian forster you know standing right next to this So the ancients of that Andean region They'd like to do their mummies Here's another one I just Oh this one's in the Lima airport Or one of the Lima museums

Very interesting That looks similar to Montserrat as far as How it's kind of When you consider all of Peru Like get out of just Cusco And go to all of Peru The coastal civilizations The Chachapoyas

the, you know, so many different civilizations, the Amazonian civilizations, it rivals Egypt. So you wrote this awesome book. I haven't read it, but I love the title, Enigmatic North America, Legends, Audities, and Controversial History. I guess one question. What's the most amazing thing in your book when it comes to an oddity or controversial piece when it comes to North America? for me the whole book is I truly try to be objective in there and I really try to like if I think something's fake I want to it's not even really about what I think if somebody makes a good argument for something being fake or just not what the public wants to hear I

put it in the book you truly hear both sides of the story to me I'll tell you the most my favorite topic. And that is ancient migrations that aren't accepted by the current Overton window. That's kind of like, I guess, where my passion is. And it's a very controversial topic because people accuse you of racism if you think that like Europeans or Chinese made it here before Columbus. And you're not, it's far from the truth. The Native American oral histories themselves talk about this. I almost think it's more racist to just, discount these oral traditions of white-bearded men. And so some of the, I guess my favorite topic in there is probably this idea that the

Celts possibly made it to the Americas and even left engravings in West Virginia, possibly even all the way over into Oklahoma, Colorado. And I'm not even totally sold on it yet, but there are some interesting argument for it. Actually, if you wouldn't mind, I would love to show you some videos of some time lapses I've taken of some petroglyphs out in southeast Colorado on the day of the equinox being illuminated perfectly at sunrise. And many people believe that this resembles something called Celtic Ogham. And Celtic Ogham is a form of like an ancient script that is believed to have been used maybe as a way to kind of hide things from the Romans when the Romans were in the area. Some people think it

goes way back all the way to the Tower of Babbel. So what you're seeing here right now is a place called Crack Cave, Southeast Colorado. And I woke up early and took a time lapse on the day of the spring equinox 2022. And you see this perfectly, I guess we can rewind that here, this perfectly highlighted inscription that on the day of the equinox the sun shines on it, almost like they knew the sun was going to shine there, and they put an engraving there. Now there's some guys, Philip Leonard and his name is escaping me, but Philip Leonard gave a translation for this that supposedly says,

the sun strikes here in the day of BAL, which was their sun god. And the problem with this is supposedly American Ogham lacks vowels where the Irish Ogham has vowels. And so you can kind of be open to interpretation. But if you just Google search Ogham writing, you'll see this does look remarkably similar to Ogham. The difference being American Ogham, I guess you could say, is horizontal where most Ogham, not all, but most Ogham in Ireland, is vertical.

I believe over there they pronounce it, Oam. I'm American, so when I see a G, I say it, Ogham. So forgive me out there. But this was just unbelievable to me. The day before I took a time lapse in Oklahoma, this is all in the Oklahoma-Coloma, this is called the Anabas Panel out in Oklahoma. And the reason they call it the Anabas Panel is because there's this little kind of probably a coyote.

Yeah. But has a little flail on it, similar to Anabas here. And the Celts actually did work as mercenaries down in Egypt. And overheat. So that was a little time lapse I took. But the most interesting time lapse that I took was right in the cave next to it. And you're going to see this here. Here's more Ogham-like writing where you have these scratches with a line.

And these scratches are intentionally different sizes. And let me just kind of get to it. And you see this pointer finger almost coming up perfectly right here on the line, almost as if it's a calendar. And there's a whole book by Gloria Farley, who was really into this, that it's escaping my name right now. But it's a pretty interesting topic. Even if this wasn't made by Kelts, these are clearly Equinox markers.

and it was a lot of fun chasing this story down. One theory I kind of have is, of course, the Celts came over. If something can happen, it will happen. Of course the Chinese came over. I believe Africans were coming over to Brazil. It's not that far. And it's possible that these are obviously still made by Native Americans, but why did they understand this Ogham-like writing?

Why do you see this all the way? I saw the same type of writing down in Paraguay when I was doing the Vikings story down there. And so, you know, we have this Ogham-like writing all throughout the United States. Why is that? You know, Native Americans supposedly didn't have any script that they would write about, but we have this consistent type of petrocliff you see from West Virginia, New York, New Hampshire, Oklahoma, Colorado, even down to Mexico.

And like I said, I saw some in Paraguay. So what is that? You know, it's quite the mystery, and that was chapter two of my book. It's probably not the most significant oddity, but it's the first one that came to mind and I had a video, so I wanted to show that to you. I wanted to ask you about the 12,000-year-old pictographs of Ice Age, what looks like Ice Age mammals down there in, was that Columbia? Correct, Columbia, down in kind of the Amazon region, right as it on the borders of the Amazon region. That place is called La Landosa, and that's just one of many pictograph places down there. And yes, it's a very controversial place because I can pull up a picture if you'd like,

but it's so well preserved that it's hard to almost believe that these are 12,600 years old. We're pushing 13,000 years on the dating. But they found fragments of what would be the paint that they use, or kind of the red paint in a layer of soil with organic material that sure enough, multiple times they found this where it was getting dated to 12,600 years old. The truth is there's probably multiple epics and generations that rode on these walls. But in one of the images, and I have the picture right here if you'd like to see it, there is a picture of what is believed to be an Ice Age sloth.

Here's me at the site here at La Landosa. and then now I'm going to show you this picture of this supposed ice age sloth. The giant sloth, it looks remarkably similar. You're seeing right here in the middle of the screen, and it's right next to these tiny little humans, and many people think this is on there. There's also a type of possibly extinct horse. There's something called a gonath there that is an extinct animal

that is no longer there as well. And if you want to see something really weird, what do you think this looks like? What do you think this looks like right here? Tell me what you think this looks like. The animal under kind of the big gray area? Yeah. It's definitely some kind of brachiosaur.

That's what, you know, I, you know, I don't necessarily believe that's the case, but they called this the dinosaur when I was there like, and there's the dinosaur right there. That's what my guide called it. And so I just thought that was funny. Looks like some kind of little serapod. A logical explanation. There was all kinds of critters down there, but it looks like a dinosaur.

So that was kind of fun. And it's a beautiful place. It's one of the best things I ever did. I hope it's okay that I'm kind of plugging this, but I'm actually about to start running kind of a tour down there. So I am doing a tour down there with the best tour guide in the region. I'm going to be announcing that here soon. I'm getting my website up.

and it's just an incredible part of Columbia that that is unreal and once again it's so old that people don't like that age because you know anytime you find something pretty old it pushes back you know dates and so 12,600 years ago not too long ago people thought that that was maybe when people were arriving and here they are in Columbia now the age has kind of been accept it's kind of acceptable to say people have been here for at least 22,000 years. I think there's rock art in Brazil that some archaeologists believe is 100,000 years old. So that's what I love that topic of when did people start arriving in Americas? And to me, the answer is when did people exist? When did people start existing? I know that maybe it wasn't in large numbers because

you know, the fossil record or whatever would show that. But people are exploring. Are you kidding me? Like people have always been coming to the Americas, and there's multiple anomalies that, in my opinion, prove that. Before we call it, definitely plug where people can follow you, plug these upcoming tours, where they can maybe get information when it's already. Do you have a newsletter or do they just follow you on YouTube or what? Follow me on socials at Incred History, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok,

at incred history and I'll be having my website incredible history.com will be up soon. I'm transferring some domain stuff and I'm going to get that up here soon and we're going to have a good time down there probably be about 14 people 10 to 14 people and it's going to be a good time so I appreciate you having me on man this has been awesome I've been a fan of your channel for a long time so this is kind of surreal thanks man is is your tour, is it like end of 2025 or we're talking in 2006?

October, 2025. Okay, so it's coming up. And I'm probably going to do a second one sometime after if things go how I think they're going to go. I put out a little tweet about it the other day and got overwhelming interest about it. Yeah, I saw that.

So you will see those, that rock art that we just talked about on the tour. Yeah, it'd be a, basically a five-day four-night deal first night first day in bogota everybody would arrive and we would go to the gold museum which is incredible and then it's this amazing museum with all this ancient gold artifacts we'd have a good dinner that night and then we'd have three days down in guaviere and all three of those days we'll see rock art panels and we'll also see some interesting boulders and rock anomalies, one place called, I believe, Orion Gate, if you want to Google that,

and some eco-tours as well down there. Awesome. Hey, I got to ask you one more question. You had a video I saw on your YouTube maybe a year ago, and it was something about your search for ancient dwarves in the Mayan jungle. Correct. I wish I had this picture to show you right now. Did you find anything?

Tell it, give me something. Yes. I wish I had this picture to pull up for you right now. I'll send it to you. Maybe you can throw it in here. But I went down to Yakshalan, which is an incredible Mayan site. And while, and not many people go there, you have to take a boat to get to Yakschalan and Piedras Negress. And this is on the Guadabala border, and it's on the Mexican side. And when I got there, I was just going to go. I wanted to see it. It was part of the tour. I was going to go see Piedas Neger. But then when we got there, There was this amazing temple with these strategic holes that were in it. And my guide told me that those holes were used for wind to blow through. And they would listen to the whistles of it. And then he starts showing me the stella's underneath. And there were these dwarves. Clearly dwarves with like these weird noses.

And he goes, these are the dwarf people. The Mayan dwarf people believe that the Mayans believe the dwarf people were spiritual, that they had spiritual powers. And of course, there's many stories about the dwarf king of Uxmahl, you know, that took over Uxmall somehow. There's a dwarf that was running the show there apparently for a while. And so it blew my mind. I wish I had a photo. But, yeah, there's a clear carving that I'm surprised it's not more famous.

And I wish I had the photo. I had the photo on my phone right here. I just sent it to Luke Caverns last night, actually. It's funny you brought that up. Well, that kind of dovetails with like, there's different sites, you know, in South America where there's miniature like buildings. You know, Tulum, I think, has some of them there on the Yucatan. Peru does as well. Yeah, Peru does up there.

By Napa Iglesia, there's a little miniature tower. I think the old world was more like Narnia than we think. Yeah. And in Peru, they have these T-shaped windows. I know we don't have a lot of time. I don't know if I can talk for that two minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Peru, the Peru small little buildings I noticed in pictures that they had T-shaped windows,

which is kind of crazy because if you're a fan of the Southwest, you know, we have T-shaped windows in the American Southwest. Well, I found these, this is actually a big building in Peru. I found these in the Chachapoyas region and couldn't believe my eyes. Here you have Adobe Cliff dwelling. with T-shaped windows, like 3,000 miles away from Colorado. These were actually used to store their dead. But, you know, I've seen these T-shaped all over the place.

Here's one more example or a couple more examples. I'll show you. Here's Chaco Canyon. And I've seen them down in Mexico and Guatemala, too. And then I just, the only reason I brought it up is because you talked about the small little dwellings in Peru. They got T-shapes on those little small dwellings there too. What's up with the T's? you know

so a Peru connection to the American Southwest correct and that's going to be a chapter that actually is a chapter in my first book it's more so Guatemala to Colorado and then I found these in Peru and I was like well I got to make that chapter again in my second book the Colorado Peru connection

because you have T-shaped windows doors whatever you want to call them on dwelling on Adobe dwellings in in Peru It looks very similar. Do you happen to add that drone video handy of the Chachapoyas? Yes. I don't have the drone video, but I have the drone photo.

So same people. And if you look here, the one in the middle without the eyes, it has a little T symbol as well on its chest. Okay. There was a Mayan god Iqwe, and it symboled life and breath. And Luke Cabrins was actually down there. And me and him had talked about this topic. He'd been down in the Mayan territory.

And he said, he noticed there was a lot of fresh air blowing through these tea windows. Like it was almost meant to capture air or something like that. And it's interesting because the Mayan god Iqwe meant like breath and life and wind. So maybe it has something to do with that. But these are incredible. This place right here, Karahya, I believe is what it's called. there are mummified bodies wrapped in the animal skins in all of these. And you can see the skull on top there.

You can see a skull in the bottom right. You can see remnants of skulls. These would have been elite Chachapoyas warriors or nobility, somebody important that they put on this cliffside over 700 years ago. And I got a chance to fly my drone. The Chachapoyas are the most underrated and enigmatic culture that we know of in Peru, in my opinion. We know a lot about the Inca. Maybe we don't know about what was happening before the Inca.

There's all kinds of theories there. But the Chacha Poi is very interesting. And they have a completely different architecture style compared to the rest of the Andean cultures. They build their Puebloes and circles. They supposedly, the Spanish said they had blonde hair and light eyes. And when I was hiking in these regions that are far, far away, I met multiple people. that were natives, they would be upset if you said they had Spanish blood. Like they believe they are natives and they had green eyes.

And so there's theories out there that the chaucoyas were maybe related to the Phoenicians, the Carthaginians and the Celts and they came over after the Roman Empire sacked Carthage. I don't know if any of that's true, but there's a documentary about it out there if you want to check that out. And it's probably going to be a chapter in my book. but the amazing thing is these these depictions of these humanoid right here are literally housing the remains inside them of the ancient warriors correct i don't think your average person never knew that fact so you see right there in the bottom right where the skull is that was also a statue it just has degraded and collapsed and so you're now seeing the remnants there oh wow i see it

So that was also a statue that had a body in it. Now there's a skull just laying there. These are about at least 700 years old. And the Chachapoyas were never fully, they were the last resistance to the Inca. The Inca didn't really want to mess with them up there. It's a very remote mountainous area. And they had this amazing place called Aquilup.

That is this incredible fortress on a 10,000 foot mountain peak. that I got to go a visit. And the Inca finally kind of subdued them probably through incaonomic means or whatever, but they never fully conquered the Chacha Poyas. Incredible culture. With lots of mummies. Incredible. Well, I think the point is there's an incredible history that is even more incredible than the mainstreamers wanted us to believe, right?

So everybody follow, will. at incred history on Twitter. He's on Instagram, YouTube. You said TikTok, and you got another book coming out. That's exciting. Yeah, Enigmatic South America, Legends, Audities, Controversial History. And I'm taking my time with this one. I was kind of rushing things, and sometime.

It's going to happen. But Enigmatic North America is out on Amazon now, and you can get it via Kindle or Paperback. a little bit expensive. It's 35 bucks. It's got a lot of pictures. It's an expensive print job is what that is. But it's kind of a coffee-style book, and I poured my heart into it. So I hope you get a chance

to check it out. Everybody get that book if you can. Will, thank you so much for your time. And I'll keep following you. And I'm excited about the more anomalies that you're uncovering. And

it's just, it's cool to see guys like you go into some real remote places. that not a lot of people get to. So keep up the good work, man. Thanks for your great research. I appreciate you, Derek. Thanks for having me on.