Megalithic Marvels - Utah’s Creepy Ancient Petroglyphs Nobody Can Explain (rewind)

Episode Date: September 11, 2026

Deep inside Utah’s remote canyons and basins hides some of the strangest ancient petroglyphs and pictographs on planet earth. This mysterious rock art features strange anthropomorphic figures that feature bizarre characteristics such as six fingers, insect-like eyes, massive feet, elongated skulls, horns and varying scenes of chaos. Some of these depictions portray the victors carrying severed heads, and some figures stand as tall as nine feet. Were the ancient artists depicting what they saw or what their ancestors said they saw according to their oral traditions? And what might their connection be to the infamous Skinwalker Ranch, which is located only thirty miles from the most fantastic and fierce of all these petroglyphs? I will dive into all of these questions with explorer & landscape photographer Abbie Warnock-Matthews who lives in Utah and explores the many ancient petroglyph sites of the region. JOIN ME ON A TOUR Abbie’s Website Article - Utah’s Ancient Six Fingered “Bigfoot” Petroglyph⁠

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I'll give you a... Glad, new season hits September 18th on Paramount Plus. We're some see heroes. and others see egos. Bloomberg sees the era of billionaire athletes. A fad to some, the future of money to others. We see crypto's trillion dollar swings, the end of jobs, or the end of human struggle.

We see the endless funds fueling the AI hype. While others follow the noise, we follow the money. Learn more at Bloomberg.com. Well, I am super excited to be joined by explore and landscape photographer, Abby Warnock Matthews, who lives in Utah and specializes in exploring the many ancient petroglyph sites of the region. When I saw your photo of these what you call dry fork petroglyphs, especially this figurine we're going to talk about that is known as the Bigfoot, I was floored. We're going to be talking about, you know, many of these ancient rock. art sites in Utah specifically and maybe in other states that you visited. I want to talk about the strange figurines, especially that are depicted at these sites, how old they might be, who might have

made them, and what these strange depictions might have represented. It's been a lot of fun to find them all and I don't think I'll ever see them all. And you know, it's funny because I go out and look for them and you know when you're online you kind of become your online community and you assume that everybody's seeing the same stuff as you except i'm part of these rock art nerd circles where we all know about these panels but when outsiders come in and see them it blows them away where they're like where is this why is nobody talking about this there are so many and they are a lot of them are easily accessible. A lot of them are actually built pretty close to the I-70, you know, because they ended up running the interstate right through that area. So there is a lot that is easily accessible

where you can park your car and walk to them. And people drive right past and don't know they're there. But I would say that the rock art panels in Utah are in the tens of thousands. First, for those who might kind of be new to this topic of ancient rock art, can you educate us a little bit. Just because I know there's going to be some words you throw out that might fly over some of our heads, like what's the difference between a petroglyph and a pictograph? And then I know you use the word anthropomorphic a lot. Tell us what that means. And then panel. Basically, what's that mean? Sure. So if we're going to get into the difference between petroglyphs and pictographs, It's a pretty simple explanation.

Pictographs are painted on a surface with a pigment and usually with a brush. A lot of times they would mix available minerals with something like tree sap or animal fat. They would mix it all together and then they would end up painting that on the rock surface with fingertips or with pine bristles and things of that nature. And then petroglyphs are pecked or etched into the rock surface itself. This can be done using a chisel or just another rock. One thing I will say about petroglyphs, especially in this area, is that whatever they were using to etch them into the rock is so impressive.

Because from time to time, you do run into panels that have been vandalized by other people. And just the scratchings of other people in modern times don't even come close to what these people were capable of doing and how deep they etched these into the rock and how they cut through the desert varnish to do it. It's incredible. It's really impressive. And then obviously, you know, some people have also asked, what's the difference between a petroglyph and a hieroglyph? And a hieroglyph is a relief carving where they actually remove all of the rock around the image to make a 3D surface, like the ones in Egypt or Peru or Mexico.

And there are a couple of examples of hieroglyphs in Utah. Not many. Most of the time it's the outline of the shape that is made. But there are a couple where there are reliefs of a, you know, a really big figure set inside where they have removed the stone. But again, really rare. That's like breaking news. There's hieroglyphs found in Utah. Right?

I mean, hieroglyphs in the fact that they're relief carvings. But, you know, nothing, nothing near as intricate and smooth and polished as the stuff you'll find in Egypt. But they do exist. And there are even some, you know, on this ranch in Vernal that we're going to talk about. I definitely want to ask you about several specific sites that I've seen on your Instagram account. I want to start off asking you about these dry fork petroglyphs. Sure. I think you pronounce it, Utah.

Is it Uinta Basin? Yeah, that's a big one for outsiders. It's the Uintel basin. I've seen people that are like, the Uintaw, and I'm like, you're giving us too much credit. We're just a bunch of simple cowboys out here. The Uinta Basin is actually named after the Ute tribe that still resides in that area. There's a Ute reservation out there.

There's an Ure reservation out there. There's Paiutes out there. So that's what the area is named for. Okay. I see, you know, all the, these photos of these famous petrogifts like you you mentioned the ones ancient aliens have made famous and is it segal canyon but nobody had ever showed me this guy of this basically i don't want to i don't want to blow it yet but the six fingered big foot break it down for us tell us what makes

these so unique bizarre and weird compared to a lot of those that people have seen these they haven't scene. So the rock art in the Uinta Basin is referred to as classic Vernal style. And Vernal is a prominent town up in the UNA basin. It's probably the biggest city. And it's just outside of Dinosaur National Monument and near, between the towns of Roosevelt and Jensen on, what is that highway? I think it's the 40 that goes through there and then it ends up going, you know, up to Wyoming or into Colorado. You know, it's just up in the northeastern corner. And classic vernal style often contains large anthropomorphic figures, like a lot of other rock art in Utah.

They have trapezoidal shaped bodies. They have round, triangular, or bucket-shaped heads on average. And they typically have some kind of headdress on as well as a lot of embellishment across their chests and their shoulders. That's an indicator of classic vernal style. And the vernal style petroglyps are part of the Fremont. culture. The Fremont culture was after the archaic culture, and it was divided up into a couple of different regions of Utah, where they were all part of a larger culture, but they definitely had

different bands that were doing their own subcultures during that time period. And up in the UNA Basin, they were called the, they call them the UNA Baysan, Fremont people. And there are multiple styles of this rock art throughout the Uino Basin, and you can find it in Dinosaur National Monument. It's along the banks of the Green River, but there is a collection of it outside of the town of Bernal in a place that's referred to as Dry Fort Canyon or Ashley Creek. That's oftentimes the name that is given to this area of rock art. But a lot of it is located on private land, you know, ranches and farms and people that have been there for literally generations. And because that's the case, a lot of it is inaccessible.

However, one of the landowners back in the 70s decided they wanted to open up their property to the public because they had been dealing with trespassers and they were afraid that, you know, if people found out this was there but didn't have permission to go, they would just go anyways. and if they weren't, you know, fostering some kind of stewardship for it, they were afraid that the panels would get vandalized. So it's called McConkey Ranch, and the landowners actually got it made into a Utah State historical site back in 1975 because they just wanted to preserve it and protect it.

So when you go to this place, it's just outside of the town of Bernal, and you can park in a public parking lot, and they have a cute little, like, log cabin set up where you can go in, sign the registry, make a little donation. There's a refrigerator full of bottled water if you need something for the trail during the summer heat. They're really sweet. And the mere fact that it is open to people is just incredible. But, you know, once you get in and, you know, pay your little do and go up the trails, you go up to these cliff bases where all of this incredible rock art is. And I, you know, I, you know, you know, you know,

It's hard to even describe it. It's unlike anything else you have ever seen, which is why it caught your eye when I first posted stuff online. It's multiple, multiple, multiple trapezoidal shaped anthropomorphs, but they're completely unique to other things in the area in that you have not only this Bigfoot panel that we're going to get into, but you also have something that is not in other rock art panels anywhere else in Utah. that I have personally seen, and that is figures of people standing inside these circular shapes.

And, you know, archaeologists have commented that, oh, they must be shields. They're holding shields. But when you look at the rock art, they're not standing behind a solid mass. They are standing inside of this circular shape. It almost looks like they're coming out of a tunnel or out of a portal or something. It's really unique to the area. And I haven't seen any other rock art like that anywhere else in the state. Along with these portal figures, you also have a really unique set of figures that are holding severed heads.

And, you know, head hunting is something that archaeologists talk about being, you know, present during ancient times. But this is kind of the only depiction of that kind of behavior or activity that is in any other. rock art in Utah. And it's pretty intense. They are holding these heads, which have been streaked with pictograph paint, where, you know, there is actually red blood flowing out of them. And they have pecked tear stains down their faces. And it's not one or two of them. I mean, there are multiple, multiple severed heads on this panel. And, you know, it could have been an indicator that they were a warlike people, that they were fighting with neighboring tribes. There isn't really any other indications of that in Fremont rock art other places, but you know, it is possible that it's

just that they were a warring people, but it's hard to say. But among this group of bloody and chaotic figures is what has become known as the McConkey Ranch Bigfoot, which is the panel that I posted that you saw. And to describe him, he has six fingers on each of his hands. And he appears to be next to a severed head that's next to his elbow. And he has a large bucket-shaped head. He appears to be smiling. And he has two massive feet.

They are as wide as his entire body with his outstretched arms. And typically on rock art panels, especially Fremont art panels, you're lucky to get depictions of feet at all. Oftentimes they are just, you know, tall, ghostly anthropomorphic figures that don't have feet, but these are huge. And he's the only one of his kind. There are not any others like him. And aside from the giant feet, he also has a really unique long spear that is coming down through his body, like through the shoulder area. and you don't see that anywhere else on these panels where he's located either. Totally unique, his own deal.

So the fact that he appears to have an appendage between his legs leads me to believe that he was deemed a mortal. So oftentimes in these panels, especially with the spirit figures, when they don't have arms or legs, it's kind of the agreed-upon point that they were spirits or interdimensional beings or, you know, as ancient aliens would call them. They were extraterrestrials. But anytime there is a person with arms and legs, it's usually depicted as being either the shaman who was conducting the journey or, you know, one of the tribe members, a mortal being.

So the fact that he has, you know, arms and giant feet and a penis leads me to believe that he was a flesh and blood person or, or creature or something that was. was among the tribe. So, you know, with that, I'm sure that some of your followers are probably thinking about the fact that, you know, polydactalism and the six fingers is a legend that's, you know, prominent throughout different parts of history on different continents. There are legends in the Middle East of an ancient race of giants that possessed polydactalism. And polydactalism means they have extra digits, extra fingers, extra toes. and there are legends of a red-haired tribe of giant cannibals

in the Paiute tribe in Nevada, which was also given a lot of attention by ancient aliens back in the day. None of the remains that have ever been found there have, you know, proven that there was a polydactal group of giants living there, although some people claim that to cover up too, so I don't know enough about it to say. But the Navajo tribe down to the Sliu tribe down to the, Southwest of Utah also has, you know,

legends of six-toed cats and other supernatural beings that possess polydactylism, you know, six digits. I find it interesting that the Bigfoot character on this panel has six fingers on each hand, but he appears to only have five toes on each foot. So I don't know what that's about, but I, what do you think? Your summer travels deserve an upgrade. With select Chevrolete, Buick, GMC, and Cadillac vehicles connected by OnStar,

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and spend two hours building rituals and shaping culture with every stream. Download the Culture Next Report to discover trends and insights that will inspire your next campaign. Yeah, I mean, I was just so fascinated by these petroglyphs as a whole because, first off,

tell me if I'm right in this. These are not only petroglyphs, but like you said, they also are pictographed in a sense where they've got the painted blood. So that kind of makes them special that they're both. They are. It's kind of like extra work went into this.

When you look at, I mean, when I'm looking at these petrogous very detailed, like you said, the heads, the severed heads have chiseled out like tear drops. It looks like on the Bigfoot figurine, he's got some kind of necklace around that almost, you know, it kind of looks 3D in nature. and then so they're very colorful. It's a petroglyph pictograph combination. You've got these guys coming out of these circles or orbs. Like you said, they don't look like shields to me because it looks like they're coming out of them. So that's very fascinating. And as I look at it.

Oh, go ahead. Yeah, no. And then you've got, again, several of them holding severed heads. So, I mean, it's like these are head hunting. And then some of them appear to have horns. And what other crazy? Okay. And then in one photo, it shows it's like it's the biggest collection of a group of these figures.

On the kind of near the top, they're very large. And one's got a head in the middle. And then near the bottom, they're smallish. Do you think this is adults and children or might this? be hybrid-type giants and normal humans below them? I mean, it's anybody's guess. Anything's possible. I will say that as far as depictions of children go on these panels, they are rare.

A lot of times you will find ceremonial pictograph and petroglyph panels that contain things for fertility where they're looking to, you know, bear a child. There's even depictions of, you know, there's a panel down in Moab called the birthing panel. where it's actually a depiction of a woman giving birth to a baby in breach, and you can see the feet coming out. But as far as, you know, just depictions of children on the panels, they're not very common. Okay, that's interesting to know because as I look closer now at this one I'm referring to, the figure on the bottom right actually looks very, it actually has horns.

I mean, pretty pronounced, right? So I guess that wouldn't be a child. So again, maybe this is some kind of depictions of a giant. So back to the Bigfoot guy, I'm glad you point out. I know on the one hand, he definitely has six fingers. I couldn't tell on the other for sure, but you're confirming that it sounds like. It does look. It appears that he does have six fingers on each hand.

And you make the point that a lot of the kind of the tall, limbless depictions, you know, might represent a godlike entity, whereas those that have appendages are likely human. And then you mentioned, you know, the polydactalism. Again, that takes me back to my studies into Genesis 6. You know, the Bible even talks about this ancient race of giants and even mentions polydactalism. And then I was just interviewing Dr. Gregory Little. I don't know if you've heard of him.

He's one of the foremost experts on the ancient mounds of America. Oh, cool. And he's done research with, man, he's written so many books on this. But he's, you know, he's gone through all the Smithsonian publications and all the photos. He kind of like what you do with these petroglyph photos on your Instagram. He does on Twitter with all of the old Smithsonian photos. He's documenting all the mounds and the artifacts found in the mounds. And his conclusion is pretty insane.

And it's that, you know, thousands upon thousands of years ago, whether it was 8,000 or 10,000, when these mound building culture was thriving, you know, the basic civilization was primitive. But the ruling elites were these seven to eight foot tall peoples that he says are related to the Denisivans, you know, from Genozova, the cave, where they found these massive molar. So he says he does believe there was this race of giants, if you want to call them that, at least seven to eight feet that seemed to have ruled over the rest of the masses. So that makes me go to at least these petroglyphs with the dry canyon, the Bigfoot. Could these have been the ancient people's depictions of some of these elite rulers? And I like how you ask that question in your Instagram post in our article. are these like a warlike tribe or might this be some kind of ruling elite godlike demi-god entities, right?

Yeah, some kind of a worshipped, you know, a little bit higher up the chain than the rest of the village. Yeah. I know that, you know, there are legends of the giants and things like that coming out of Nevada. And as far as Utah is concerned, I haven't really heard, you know, much of anything about it, except for this panel where this guy is clearly just unique and on his own. And we were kind of talking about it before we started recording. As far as all of the rock art textbooks go, they all talk about the Dry Fork Canyon area because it is so impressive.

I think the Smithsonian said it was the most impressive display of rock art in North America. And they're not wrong. But I found it very interesting that in these texts, nobody mentions the Bigfoot panel. You know, they talk about all of these others. And, you know, it could be something as simple as the fact that when you're writing a textbook on rock art, you're kind of looking to quantify things. You're looking to categorize things. So it's, you know, when you read them, they're very dry.

They're very academic. And they're talking about, you know, 14% of panels contain a person with this kind of headdress. And 70% of panels will contain, you know, anthropomorphic figures with horns. And 4% of the panels contain a Coco Peli kind of figure that's playing a flute. And it could just be that because he's so unique and he's such a one-off, they don't bother mentioning him. But it is interesting to me that he hasn't gotten the attention that I kind of feel like he deserves because he is so unique and he is so rare. And there's nothing out there really like him.

I wanted to bring up the fact that, you know, because you're familiar with Skinwalker Ranch, Skin Walker Ranch is located only 30 miles as the crow flies from this rock art panel. And they have found rock art on the property. I haven't been keeping up with the show. You know, there's a show The Secret of Skin Walker Ranch on the History Channel. And it's not because of lack of interest. I've just been raising a kid and haven't had time for a lot of TV. but I follow the owner on Instagram and kind of keep tabs on what's going on out there just because I did read the book back in the day and it's a fascinating topic.

But they have found rock art out there. And one of the craziest stories that's come from that area was from the original owner in the 1990s who said that, you know, one day he had a guy stopped by the property who, you know, if I recall, he was like drawn to the property. He just wanted to go there and he wanted to meditate and he wanted to have, you know, some. some time. And, you know, being a cowboy cattle rancher, the owner at the time, who they call Tom in the book, which isn't his real name. Tom was kind of like, okay, you can, you can come in. And as the man sat down to meditate out by the homestead on the property, Tom saw something out of the corner of his eye and couldn't really tell what it was, but there was like a blurry mass that was making its way across the field toward this man who was meditating with his eyes closed.

And he couldn't find the words to describe it. He was like, you know, it was tall, like nine feet tall. But it was almost as if it were cloaked. It, you know, you could see this mass moving almost like a weird mirror reflection or something that was going through the field. And it was coming up on this guy fast. And when it got to the dude, I think Tom might have. have even called out like, hey! And at that point, whatever this thing was, let out a roar that Tom described as like being a mix between like a lion and a bear and had no explanation

for what it was, but, you know, it took off running and, you know, this guy that was meditating in the field fell to pieces, said like this intense feeling of fear and dread washed over him and he had to get out of there. But there are also other stories from, from that property of these strange portals opening up and people seeing like crazy black hairy creatures crawling out of them. I don't know. You know, and at any time that anything has ever come up as far as what I've seen, it's been pretty grainy and blurry footage.

It's obviously hard to document. But these stories are out there. And it does make me wonder if it is one of these things where if there is some kind of paranormal activity going on out there where you have some kind of rip in the sky or, you know, a dimensional rift where things can come and go, would that apply to something of this nature, something giant? And in fact, I think in the book, later on that year, the owner of the ranch was watching the movie Predator with Arnold Schwarzenegger.

And when it got to the part where it was like the predator was cloaked in in the forest, he kind of did that Leonardo DiCaprio, like, you. You know, like, that's it. That's what I saw. And he told everybody like, that was, that was what I was looking at. It was just this weird mess that was booking it across the property. And it was nine feet tall, but I don't know what it was. And it was like cloaked in something that couldn't let me see it. So you get these whack-a-doodle stories out of the UNA basin. And I don't know what to make of it. But I find it very interesting that, you know, that property is only 30 miles away. And McConkey has ancient depictions of people coming out of circles and strange big-footed creatures and warring people that aren't anything like anything else in the Fremont culture as far as the rock art's concerned. And, you know, there are grave sites where you'll find, you know, mass graves of people that were murdered during warfare between tribes where one tribe showed up in the middle of the night, killed the entire village, threw them in a pit, and then took off. Those kind of stories

are here, but it's nothing like what's depicted in the UN basin. Don't you wish you could just hit skip on the worst parts of your life? You know, the same way you can skip an ad? I get it. I'm Siyaya and I live in Ice Cove. I've made some questionable decisions that didn't end up the way I planned. And today, I'm still figuring it out. Somehow things usually get worse before they get better.

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Here's to WestJetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. Yeah, that's so fascinating. I don't, I think that's a very important point to make. The Skinwalker Ranch is literally 30 miles from these petroglyphs where you've got this strange depiction of this entity or figurine with these massive feet. Like you said, as wide as his arms go out on the sides. He's got six fingers.

He's got, now do you think this is a fancy hat or might this be an elongated skull with horns? So I think that the top part, the bucket portion is his head. But as far as the rays that the lines that are coming out the side, those are often depicted as rays of light on other panels where it's meant to show like a beam coming from behind them. Especially, you know, Barrier Canyon rock art has a lot of that where it's a really tall, crazy, anthropomorphic spirit godlike figure. and then they will have rays coming out like it was engulfed in light. So when it comes to the big foot, I think that the bucket portion is his head, but I think that the rays on the side are probably depictions of light coming from behind him.

So in a weird way, that gets me even more excited that you think the head is actually elongated and not just some fancy hat or headdress. So we could possibly have a big-footed, six-fingered, elongated skull depiction of this figurine 30 miles from Skinwalker Ranch. And so again, where my head goes is, was the ancient artist who made this depicting what he saw? Or maybe what his ancestors even said they saw according to their oral traditions. And again, might this be depicting some kind of hybrid demigod from the old world for those who follow the Nephilim from Genesis?

6-4. The Bible basically says they, you know, they were, they descended. They were on the earth in those days and also after the flood. So did they also descend on this side of the world at some point? Or like you said, might they have come through some kind of portal or Stargate, again, related to this strange region and Skinwalker Ranch. So it's crazy to consider. And I also wanted to ask you about one figurine and you're going to have to remind me, I know it's a bearer canyon style, but it's this guy, this depiction that looks almost like a bug with antennas and his arms are off to the side and it's like he's shooting something. What tells about that? So this is a panel that I have been dying to see. This panel is a panel. This panel is,

very unique in that it's a Barrier Canyon site that was not even documented until about 11 years ago. So it doesn't appear in any of the textbooks. It's not in any of the old archaeological information about Barrier Canyon rock art. And it contains a couple of things on this panel that are so strange. The one that you're the one that you're talking about with the antenna and he looks as if he's almost like shooting something out of these long. claw-like hands. He is a figure that is a little bit common in that area in that there are creatures like him found in other panels nearby. In the past, there's another prominent panel that's up by the I-70 near the San Rafael

swell called the Head of Sinbad. And the head of Sinbad is a very similar creature where they have, you know, kind of these googly bug eyes and antenna. and they often are depicted with some kind of an animal spirit helper. And, you know, on the head of Sinbad, it's like a small little dog figure. And on this panel, it almost, I'm sure it's some kind of dog or something. It almost looks like an armadillo to me, although those are not in Utah, so, you know, hard to say what that means.

But this panel is about five miles into the San Rafael Swell, and you have to, you know, hike up a wash, drop down into another canyon. It's really remote. I ended up finding it because a four-wheeler blog had posted GPS cord, and it's like, hey, look at this cool thing we found while we was out four-wheel and ain't that crazy? And when I saw it, it blew my mind. It was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. And I mapped out the route and couldn't go because I was pregnant when I found it and

had to wait until my daughter was a little older, so she's three now. And we actually went down there and found it for the first time this month. And when you come up on this panel, it has a couple of things going on. So at the top is this bug-eyed creature with antenna. And he looks to be shooting like comets out of his hands. And, you know, some archaeologists say that, oh, like stuff like that is birth. But there are birds on other panels. There are crows.

There are owls. There are ravens. They look nothing like these shapes. So he's shooting something strange out of his hands. And they do almost look like comets or balls of fire, which is interesting in and of itself. And then off to the left of him is another tall anthropomorphic spirit figure with no legs, no arms. and he's got a snake and a couple of like leaping sheep near him. And then at the bottom of the panel,

you have another big, tall, anthropomorphic figure that appears to be, it's almost as if his body is raining. You know, it looks like falling rain. But below that creature in the middle of this panel is something so strange, so unique. I haven't seen it depicted in any other sites. and it just blows my mind. So if I can geek out on that for a minute, I'd love to.

The figure, you know, the one that's in the middle of the panel is a half circle, which has roaming four-legged, like, quadruped beasts inside of it. And it's got little circles inside of the panel. And it looks like it almost has an absolute. atmospheric layer. So there's a half circle and then there's another layer of circle on top of that that has been filled in with white. And then above this sphere that has roaming beasts inside of it, there are two free-floating figures that have domes over their heads and some weird circle below their feet, almost as if they're hovering on top of like some kind of a ball. And there used to be

three figures, but the third figure has washed away because it's actually in a rain runoff channel on the rock, and they've been there for so long, but every time it rains, the mineral deposits washed down the face of the rock and have eroded away, the third one. And then, you know, one of these figures is holding what appears to be a staff that is piercing down through the atmosphere or the membrane of this half circle. And there's other strange squiggly lines that are going into the sphere that almost look like lightning. There's a physicist out there who claims that it is really similar to a plasma burst, which is something that he believes a lot of rock art depicts in ancient times,

as if there was a solar flare so large that it actually enveloped the entire Earth and all of these ancient people were depicting this massive solar flare and all of this plasma activity that was happening in the upper atmosphere at the time. That's another story. But, you know, this figure of this half circle with the beings and the spear that's piercing through it, it's unlike anything else I've ever seen. And it is absolutely incredible to me. So the reason that I love it so much is because to me it almost feels like it is a representation of the macro and the micro simultaneously. Because when I posted this, I had other people reach out that were like,

I know you think this kind of looks like a planet and an atmosphere, but to me, it really looks like a cellular membrane, and that looks like mitochondrone inside a cell. Like, you're looking at DNA. And I went, oh, really? So the fact that it could be a representation of something viewed from space, or the fact that it could be a representation of something viewed under a micro, microscope. And it was depicted on a rock surface anywhere from 1,400 to 4,000 years ago. It blows my mind.

It's the craziest thing, you know? And it's something where Barrier Canyon Rock Art is nuts in and of itself. And it's very shamanic in nature. So it does lead me to wonder, was Barrier Canyon Rock art something where they were on hallucinogens and were experiencing things like this. You know, it makes me think of the story of, what's the name of the doctor? The doctor who basically discovered DNA made a confession in his old age to his wife, like before he passed away that he was like, I need to tell you. I need to tell somebody. When I first saw the double helix structure of DNA, I was high on LSD.

And his wife was kind of like, oh, okay, great, interesting. And there are a lot of people that have engaged in psychoactive drugs that have talked about seeing things that they don't comprehend, that they don't understand, but that have to do with a much grander scale than where they're at. So this is a kind of panel that really did make me say, like, okay, what were these people privy to. What were these people experiencing? Was this something that was brought on by hallucinogens or trans states, altered states of consciousness? How did they know to make this? And what is it? Because no matter what it's a depiction of, it's wild. It's just wild. So it is one of those things where I just,

it just makes me more curious. I don't know. Yeah, when I see this and I just, you know, kind of focus my eyes on it for a few seconds. The word that first comes to mind is genetics. Is this some kind of genetic breeding program that's depicted here that looks like some kind of, what do you want to call it, womb or something where these, they're breeding something, they're growing something because there's clearly what, one, two, three, four, five creatures inside this sad. or again, membrane, whatever this is. Yeah.

What do you think those creatures might be? Do they look like chimeric or the animals? They do look a little bit chimeric. They, if you zoom in on them, a lot of their faces have either been, you know, worn off throughout the hundreds of years that they've been sitting on this rock face. But the one on the far right, you can zoom in on that face and it is a little bit human. It doesn't look like anything we have on Earth, at least. doesn't look like any creatures that we currently have.

The lightning bolt that seems to be penetrating through the membrane also, you know, reminds me of the sperm and the egg. It, it's very, you know, it reminds me of an egg and fertilization and things like that. So, you know, I've talked with other people about the fact that maybe this is a depiction of directed panspermia, which is a popular theory with people who are into aliens where you know, there's a theory out there that we arrived on Earth through the form of comets or were actually mindfully seated on planet Earth by another race of people. So it's something that conjures up curiosity about that topic for me.

I just don't know. But, you know, when... There's got to be people, too, that are going to see this and go, man, that's got to have something to do with alien abductions. when you see the one figure holding something. I'm sure I'm going to get that comment at some point. Of course. Yeah, it's wild.

And there's, you know, there are other strange ones down there. Another theory that actually I wanted to talk about this with you because it sent me down the biggest rabbit hole. We posted a collaborative video together on Instagram just recently of that big foot figure. up in the Uana Basin, and somebody named Dave commented on that video and said, hey, have you looked into the works of a plasma physicist named Anthony Parrat? And I said, I've never even heard of this guy. What's he into? And he said, you know, you need to look him up. He's got some published papers. You can find

him on academia.edu. But basically, he's a plasma physicist who got a look at ancient rock art you know, after he was well into his career where he was doing tests in laboratories behind, you know, 10 feet of lead to make sure nobody was getting radiation. And they were doing all of these studies as to how plasma reacts under various conditions. And he said that a lot of it ended up reminding him of these ancient petroglyphs that he was being shown by a friend. And he said, you know, where did you find these? And the guy said, it's just rock art. It's everywhere.

And he said, when were they made? And he said, thousands of years ago, they've been around forever. So that sent Anthony down a rabbit hole where he ended up investigating rock art from, you know, multiple continents all over the world and finding that there were these similar shapes that were taking place on all of these panels. And for him, with his, you know, with all of the smarts he has about plasma physics, he basically was under the impression that at some point in ancient, times, a high current Z-pinch plasma toroid aurora occurred in the upper atmosphere of the earth that, like, mimicked or displayed the same way that Z-pinches display in plasma stability and instability data when they're doing tests in the laboratory. And he suggested that the The occurrence of an intense aurora that may have been produced if solar winds had been increased between one or two orders of magnitude in ancient times would have made this intense aurora that enveloped the entire Earth in this phenomenon.

And it would have been something that all of these ancient cultures, especially along a certain latitude degree around the center of the earth, would have been able to see if their village had a view of magnetic south in the sky. And after going into some of his work, it blew me away. And a lot of the shapes that he was referring to and the different petroglyphs from Australia, from Europe, from Africa, from Arizona, from New Mexico, match a ton of stuff you find on panels in Utah. So that just, you know, sent me on this wild goose chase just this week where I was like, I don't know what to do with this. This is wild. And because my ADHD brain is all about trying to make correlations constantly, it also made me think of another experiment that maybe you're familiar with. Have you ever heard of a God helmet?

No. So there is this apparatus that was used and was being studied in the 90s. And I forget the name of the scientist. I really should look up his name. but there was an apparatus that a group of scientists had made where it was kind of like a crash helmet that had an electromagnetic coil wired inside of it. And they were trying to do studies on the temporal lobes of humans and how the temporal lobes would be affected if they were introduced to very mild electromagnetic currents.

And so they would bring people into a room and they would put this helmet on them. They would turn off the lights. They would blindfold them. And then they would fire up this magnet to see how it altered their brainwaves, what they, and they, they would live narrate their experience to the scientists for the data. And a huge percentage of people that ended up doing this study claimed that once they fired up that magnet, they could sense presences in the room. They could feel dead relatives nearby. They were visited by what they called angels. Some people said they were visited by aliens.

Like, everybody came out of that experience saying, I felt something. I felt what people perceived to be as God when you fired up that magnet. And it got me into this mindset of, okay, if people in ancient times were experiencing some kind of solar flare that enveloped the entire Earth in an Aurora Borealis, that intense. and that kind of electromagnetism just blasted the earth all at once, what was it doing to those people's temporal lobes on that level? Is that something where they were all having a mass hallucination and they were experiencing these spirits?

Did they think they actually saw them? Or would something like that actually have the power to lift the veil between dimensions where they were seeing things that they couldn't explain that had not been there before, but now clearly were. You know, it's just, I get sucked into all these crazy tangents and it all just makes me endlessly curious. But these kind of panels end up stirring up those kind of thoughts for me.

No, those are wild theories. I can't. Incredible to think about for sure. I definitely wanted to ask you before I forget about another. petroglyph and this might again this is a bear your canyon style you say and it might be near the the insectoid one we just talked about but you've got several photos of this guy and i think it's the seven foot tall ones where there's they're all limbless and there's there's like one two three four five five to seven dark ones surrounding this very large kind of white looking almost

robot drone entity. Tell me about that. So this panel is part of a massive panel that is called the Great Gallery. The Great Gallery is located within an annexed canyon that is actually way outside of Canyon Land's National Park, but it's of such historical value that the National Park system actually annexed to this canyon to give it the protection it deserves. It's about an hour and a half south of Green River and about two hours west of Moab. And if you go during the spring or the fall, you can actually go on Ranger-led hikes to go down to see it. And the great thing about going on that hike is that the Ranger will stop at all of these other panels along the way.

Because that great gallery, as massive and as impressive as it is, is not the only thing down there. So it's really cool to get to go down and see all of this. But it ends up being about a 10-mile hike. and you're descending 800 feet down into this canyon, and then you got to go 800 feet back up. But when you get down there, you're met with something like 50 figures, and they are all at least six feet tall.

They are all individually unique. They have their own heads. They have their own patterns in their bodies, no two look alike. And this panel that you're talking about in particular, is off to the left in an alcove next to this long procession of figures. And it's known as the Holy Ghost Panel. That's what the Mormon pioneers called it when they first saw it.

And the Holy Ghost panel has the tallest figure of the group, which is the one you're talking about. It almost looks robotic. It has big square eyes in this crazy head with lines and embellishment. And he is nine feet tall. He is a monster, especially compared to the others. And, you know, the fact that he's surrounded by all these other dark figures is really interesting

because the other figures don't really have discernible features. And that panel, they have said, is probably like 800 to 2,000 years old, according to the newest dating that they've been trying to do to it. But, yeah, the Holy Ghost panel is also unique because that figure is one of the only depictions of any kind of dimensionality in rock art in Utah. So the fact that his head, you can kind of see the sides as well as the eyes is a really rare and unique thing. You know, he's, he was obviously of great note and, you know, got special attention from the artist when they made him. But that entire area is just mind boggling.

It is something like 50 figures on this wall and none of them have arms and legs. They are all just giant anthropomorphic spirit figures. Some of them have, you know, round big bug eyes. Some have no eyes. Some have like long slits for eyes. And there's only one, you know, figure on the panel that matches their size that has arms and legs. And, you know, some archaeologists believe that he's the shaman that took the trip and met with all of these beings. Other people have depicted him as like a Coco Pellie figure with a flute.

you know, he kind of looks like he's blowing on a flute, but he's not. This staff of whatever he's holding is actually like piercing through his chest and going out the other side. So I don't know that I believe that he's a flute player, but it's likely to me that he is probably the shaman that experienced the trip and then made the art. Yeah, fascinating because like if the dark colored figures are six feet, this guy must be seven to eight he's nine oh he's nine feet okay so you've got a nine foot tall i mean that one okay because the picture alone is it's fascinating to look at i can't imagine walking up and realizing

this is literally larger than life nine feet tall and it literally like you said it's got a 3d head you can see the sides it looks robotic and one of the guys next to him is flowing off the ground there's so much going on here that and again how far would this be from Skinwalker Ranch? So the barrier canyon stuff is probably highway wise it's probably a four hour dry between those. But as the crow flies, I want to say it's like 200 miles. So barrier canyon is kind of its own deal. it's down in the very central deserts of Utah, and it's very much confined to the canyons,

the Red Rock canyons of that area. And the desert archaic people that were there were still very nomadic. They weren't a culture that was planting down roots yet. That didn't happen until later when people started actually becoming agricultural. So they weren't there the entire time. You know, they kind of moved around and did things.

but that area just has nothing but anthropomorphic art. You know, when you get into the Fremont culture and when you get into the basketmaker and the ancestral Pueblo and stuff, you know, it is a lot of fertility panels and depictions of sex and sheep and big hunts and, you know, depictions of rain and things where the tribe was obviously celebrating stuff that was part of its everyday life. but the anthropomorphic stuff in barrier canyon art is almost always and only these giant spirit figures that either don't have eyes or have giant bug eyes and there's really nothing else like it. And that's fascinating. You said the Mormon pioneers called it the Holy Ghost panel or the Holy Ghost figure. Mm-hmm.

Wow. So they likened it to, you know, the Holy Trinity, you know, God, the Holy Ghosts, Father Jesus and the Holy Ghost. That's that's kind of what the lens that they saw it through. So that's what it's called when you look it up in the books. Well, Abby, I want to respect your time. This has been a fascinating interview. To everybody watching or listening, you definitely want to follow Abby on Instagram. If you're on Instagram, go follow her account. I think it's at Abby Warnock Matthews, correct?

W-A-R-N-O-C-K. And then Matthews has two T's. And Abby. and Abby is A-B-B-I-E. It's a long one. Follow her. She's got great photos. She's putting out some great reels. We collaborated on a reel with this Bigfoot fig green. So check that out.

I think it's got over 100,000 views by now already. It's a popular one. Yeah, Abby, is there any other way people can follow you and follow your photography? So I did make a point to upload all of my rock art to my print page. you know, my day job is outfitting offices with landscape wall art. So that's what I'm doing nine to five during Monday through Friday. But I've had a lot of people request that I upload the rock art to there because there are other rock art nerds that just want nice prints of this stuff.

So people are more than welcome to go there to see everything as well. You don't have to purchase it if you don't want, but you can definitely check out, you know, big high-res versions of all of this rock art that I've been photographing throughout the Southwest. and my website is just abbey matthews photo.com, a B-B-B-B-I-E-M-A-T-H-E-W-S photo. So that's also a great resource to be able to go and check out all that rock art. Yeah, if you're able to go to Abby Matthewsphoto.com, you said, right?

Mm-hmm. And purchase one of these high-res, amazing panoramic photos of these petroglyphs that we're talking about. Do you have the, do you have the big foot guy on there? too? I do. Okay. I'm going to have to go check that out then. It's pretty great. Abby, any parting words for us before we call this an interview? One thing that I really am always hyper aware of when I talk about this stuff is the fact that rock art is beautiful, rock art is inspiring, rock art is amazing, but it's also very vulnerable. And I think that is probably part of the reason that a lot of this stuff hasn't been

talked about on a bigger stage is that once you get into the field, then you start looking at this stuff, you become protective of it. And you are afraid of anything to happen to it because there are quite a few vandalized panels, you know, throughout this nation of ours from people who don't know better or who have animosity about it or who knows what. So I would probably tell people, if you do go to these panels and you go to visit, please be respectful. The oils in your hands can actually damage the desert varnish and the pictograph pigment that these were created with. So please refrain from touching them, even just with your hands. Obviously, don't add your own stuff to the panel. Don't be disrespectful. And a lot of this stuff is actually located on National

Monument or National Park Land where if you are caught vandalizing it, you're looking at massive fines and possible prison time. So I would also advise people to just be aware of that. But, you know, it's special. It's still sacred to the descendants of these people who do still exist in this country and, you know, hold ceremonial rituals at some of these places and hold these panels in very high regard. So if you're going to go see it, please go see it. Tell people it exists. Let people know it's out there. I want people to know it's out there. But, just make sure to be very careful and respectful when you go and leave no trace. Well said. Well said. Yeah, the prison time alone is enough to make me not want to be.

Seems like a really lame one hand anywhere here. Well, Abby, again, thank you so much for your time. This was great. And look forward to seeing more of your photos and videos on Instagram and elsewhere in the future. That'd be great. I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much.