Megalithic Marvels - Utah's Strange Anthropomorphic Petroglyphs & Skinwalker Ranch with Abbie Warnock-Matthews

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

Deep inside Utah’s remote canyons and basins hides some of the strangest ancient petroglyphs and pictographs on planet earth. This mysterious rock art features strange anthropomorphic figures that feature bizarre characteristics such as six fingers, insect-like eyes, massive feet, elongated skulls, horns and varying scenes of chaos. Some of these depictions portray the victors carrying severed heads, and some figures stand as tall as nine feet tall. Were the ancient artists depicting what they saw or what their ancestors said they saw according to their oral traditions? And what might their connection be to the infamous Skinwalker Ranch, which is located only thirty miles from the most fantastic and fierce of all these petroglyphs? I will dive into all of these questions with explorer & landscape photographer Abbie Warnock-Matthews who lives in Utah and explores the many ancient petroglyph sites of the region. SHOW NOTES Article - Utah’s Ancient Six Fingered “Bigfoot” Petroglyph 2023 Peru Tour

Well, I am super excited to be joined by explore and landscape photographer, Abby Warnock Matthews, who lives in Utah and specializes in exploring the many ancient petroglyph sites of the region. And many of her photos have recently caught my attention and I've enjoyed reading about the history of these sites that she shares when she posts these photographs. So, Abby, thank you so much for joining me today. I am honored to be here. Happy to talk about it. Yeah, so I think I first started seeing your photos on Instagram. And it's probably like, you know, the Explore tab when you're hitting Explore and you'll see all these photos and reels popping up. And somehow your photos were like right there and just brilliant and full of color.

And so I started kind of scrolling on your feed, creeping on your feed. And I really enjoyed the content, quality content you're putting out. not just photos, but you were putting together some reels of your travels to these sites. And so just kind of cool to connect with you on Instagram like that. And then I started following you. So here we are. That's amazing. I'm glad to know the algorithm cared.

When I see something new, it's really exciting because it's like, whoa, how have I never seen this before? So when I saw your photo of these what you call dry fork petroglyphs, especially this figurine we're going to talk about that is known as that. the Bigfoot, I was floored. We're going to be talking about, you know, many of these ancient rock art sites in Utah specifically and maybe in other states that you visited. I want to talk about the strange figurines, especially that are depicted at these sites, how old they might be, who might have made them, and what these strange depictions might

have represented. So for those listening and watching, you are not going to want to miss this. But first, Abby, I'd like for you to share with us, kind of how you feel. found this passion for an interest to explore these ancient sites to document and study these. And just this passion. Tell us a little bit about that. So I feel like I got into it a little bit in a roundabout way. So I'll probably start with a little bit of how I grew up and what I was into when I was

younger because I feel like that ended up being a huge factor bigger than I thought it would be. But especially with the lens that I see them through. So I'll probably start there if that's okay. I was a child of the 80s. I grew up watching, you know, a lot of movies about adventure. And I kind of feel like we were in the golden age of UFO and paranormal activity on network TV. And I don't know if you grew up watching, you know, stuff like unsolved mysteries, sightings, the X-Files, you know, things like that.

I feel like everybody that's kind of in this world right now was, drawn to that stuff like a moth to the flame, you know, back in the day. So I had first found it when I, you know, was checking out books on ghosts and Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster, stuff like that at the library. Um, you know, we were watching sightings and, and all that stuff. But I really do feel like being a child of the 80s, Stephen Spielberg really brought me into the world of the paranormal and the unexplained. Um, and maybe you can relate to that. You know, I will, I grew up watching amazing stories on TV. That was a big one for my dad, so I ended up watching that a lot with him.

But then it was also Close Encounters of the Third Kind and E.T. But because my dad was kind of a nerd, I watched Close Encounters first and kind of terrified me at the time, but got me really fascinated. So, you know, I think of movies like that and movies like The Goonies and things where you just wanted to go out there and look for things that hadn't been found. discover new things. That was a big one. You know, I mean, Gunnies,

I think was one of my all-time child favorites. I mean, and then when I went to the Oregon coast as a kid, we would stop by, what's the town there where the house was? The Gooney House. Astoria. Astoria,

yeah, like it was so crazy going to see the actual house where this was film. Huge Gooney fan. I love that. Like, it becomes a part of who, you are. It really stuck with me and just made me into one of those kids that was constantly out, tromping through creeks, you know, catching polywogs, doing stuff outside, trying to find things.

You know, I just did a lot of that. But, you know, growing up in the 90s, it was also stuff like Independence Day, Area 51, Buzz was really big back then, fire in the sky, you know, the abduction of Travis Walton. And then cattle mutilation was a big one too. I remember when we first got internet in our house, it was probably around like 1995, one of the first websites I remember visiting was a website on cattle mutilation, and I don't know why, but that has stuck with me forever. And I'm not really sure how it happened. But it's a topic that I've always been really curious about. I've always really been into UFOs and the paranormal and the unexplained. I grew up in a little town in California that was south of

Silicon Valley. It's called Morgan Hill. And that's where I lived until I was about 14 when we moved to Utah, where my dad's family is originally from. And when we moved out here, we moved to a suburb, you know, on the bench of Salt Lake City. It's called Sandy. And I remember being pretty bitter because, you know, back then, Utah wasn't as big and developed and diverse as it is now. It was, you know, still predominantly Mormon and I was raised Mormon, but I wasn't like these people. They were a lot stricter. The food was bland. The environment was bland. The people were bland. And I kind of felt like a square peg in a round hole where I didn't really fit. So at the time, it felt like a death sentence. And I ended up getting into photography as a child, or as a child, as a teen.

And I spent most of my high school existence in the dark room and learning. to tow to camera everywhere I went and just, you know, kind of spending time outside and taking pictures. Not being said, I entered my 20s with all of this curiosity for the paranormal, but I was also going out and photographing landscapes and things around Utah because, as you're probably aware, there's a lot of beautiful scenery in Utah. So it only made sense to be out there, you know, taking pictures and doing things. But, and you might relate to this as well, around 2009, that hit TV show, Ancient Aliens, came to the History Channel.

Oh, yeah. And I haven't kept up on it, but those first few seasons really sucked me in. And I had not heard about the ancient astronaut hypothesis. I hadn't heard of Eric von Danikin. I hadn't heard of Chariots of the Gods. I hadn't heard of any of that. at the time, I remember it just blowing my mind because I felt like I was into this subject and how could I have possibly missed that? Like, how could I have missed that? But, you know, I ended up

really getting into it. And you probably know the one that I'm talking about. It's, they always ended up showing this photo during those first few seasons. And I think it's still kind of a mainstay in the program. But it's a picture of a pictograph panel. It's got three figures on it. And they are tall. They didn't have any arms or legs. They had giant hollow insect-like eyes and strange antenna on top of their heads. And they're called the Sego Canyon Petroglyphs and Pictagraphs.

And we can talk about the difference between those in a second. And it's a big panel down in a place called Sego Canyon. And I remember just thinking that was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. And I figured, you know, it must be somewhere in the Middle East or, you know, out in Africa. Because I had heard about cave paintings in places like Africa or, you know, in France. It was kind of a big topic in Europe in the 90s. So I just kind of assumed that they were down there. But imagine my surprise when I found out that not only was this panel in North America,

it was three hours as south of me in the deserts near the town of Moab, Utah, which is kind of the hub between Canyonlands National Park and Arches National Park. So it was something that piqued my interest. And it, you know, just the fact that it was paranormal in nature when it was viewed through the lens of that show was really interesting to me. Yeah, ancient aliens. I mean, I remember. Yeah, did you say it started in 2008 or nine? right around there.

Yeah, right around there. I think 2009, maybe. Yeah, I mean, no matter where anybody ends with, you know, agreeing with all of that or not, you can't argue the fact that, I mean, this show is groundbreaking for bringing just awareness to all these amazing ancient sites, right? Yes. And just like, whether it's the petroglyph sites or just, again, the high quality budget that they bring to even show the megaliths, which, you know,

I really focus on a lot. So I haven't kept up with it just because, you know, married life and having a baby and things like that. I don't have as much time for TV as I used to. But I do kind of feel like ancient aliens hit right when network TV was still giant. And you didn't have a lot of other viewing options. You know, people were divided up among streaming platforms and things like that. So it caught us right before everything kind of started to fracture.

And, you know, I just took it. and ran with it. But this was also around the same time that the book Hunt for the Skinwalker came out. Are you familiar with all the lore about Skinwalker Ranch? Yeah, very aware of Skinwalker Ranch and some of the paranormal activity happens there. So that definitely dovetails with a lot of what we're going to talk about, right? Yeah. So for the people who don't know, Skinwalker Ranch is a piece of property that is set out in the Uina Basin, which is in the northeastern corner of Utah. And it's a place where during the 90s, a family had purchased the ranch and they were going to raise cattle on it.

And they noticed that some strange activity kept happening and they didn't really know what was going on. It was everything from balls of light and orbs to, you know, portals opening up and, you know, windows appearing in the sky where they could see a different colored sky. inside that portal. There were strange beasts and undocumented creatures on the property that really scared them. So they reached out for help and ended up contacting George Knapp and Colmkeleher, who came out and actually Robert Bigelow, who is a billionaire who I think made his money off of hotel chains.

He was really into the paranormal and ended up coming out. to the property with a crew of people to help investigate to see what was going on out there. And I believe Bigelow eventually purchased the property. But anyway, this ranch is located in the UNA basin pretty close to some really impressive rock art that we're going to talk about. And that book came out, I think, in like 2006. So Utah was getting cooler to me. I think, you know, once I discovered that there was all of this cool stuff around, I was a little bit more like, okay, maybe there's stuff to do here.

Maybe there's something of interest here. Maybe this isn't going to be so bad. I've lived in California myself and, you know, it's got its own great ancient history. But I think if I was to compare California with what I'd know of Utah, especially from what you've shown in your photos and, man, there might be more to see, I think, in Utah as far as exploration and these petroglyphs. So I think you did pretty good moving to Utah, right? not too shabby, not too shabby.

It's been a lot of fun to find them all. And I don't think I'll ever see them all. And, you know, it's funny because I go out and look for them. And, you know, when you're online, you kind of become your online community. And you assume that everybody's seeing the same stuff as you, except I'm part of these rock art nerd circles where we all know about these panels. But when outsiders come in and see them, it blows them away where they're like, where is this? Why is nobody talking about this? And I don't know why not. There are so many and they are, a lot of them are easily accessible. A lot of them are actually built pretty close to the I-70,

you know, because they ended up running the interstate right through that area. So there is a lot that is easily accessible where you can park your car and walk to them. And people drive right past and don't know they're there. But I would say that the rock art panels, Utah are in the tens of thousands. I definitely want to ask you again about Skim Walker Ranch and its connection to some of these depictions or panels. First, for those who might kind of be new to this topic of ancient rock art, can you educate us a little bit?

Just because I know there's going to be some words you throw out that might fly over some of our heads, like what's the difference between a petroglyph and a pictograph? And then I know you use the word anthropomorphic a lot. Tell us what that means and then panel. Basically, what's that mean? Sure. So if we're going to get into the difference between petroglyph, petroglyphs and pictographs, it's a pretty simple explanation.

Pictographs are painted on a surface with a pigment and usually with a brush. A lot of times they would mix, you know, available minerals with something like tree sap or animal fat. They would mix it all together and then they would end up painting that on. the rock surface with fingertips or, you know, with pine bristles and things of that nature. And then petroglyphs are pecked or etched into the rock surface itself. This can be done using a chisel or just another rock. One thing I will say about petroglyphs, especially in this area, is that whatever they were using to etch them into the rock is so impressive. Because from time to time, you do run into

to panels that have been vandalized by other people. And just the scratchings of other people in modern times don't even come close to what these people were capable of doing and how deep they etched these into the rock and how they cut through the desert varnish to do it. It's incredible. It's really impressive. And then obviously, you know, some people have also asked, what's the difference between a petroglyph and a hieroglyph?

And a hieroglyph is a relief carving where they actually. actually remove all of the rock around the image to make a 3D surface, like the ones in Egypt or Peru or Mexico. And there are a couple of examples of hieroglyphs in Utah. Not many. Most of the time, it's the outline of the shape that is made. But there are a couple where there are reliefs of a really big figure set inside where they have removed the stone.

But, again, really rare. That's like breaking news. There's there's hieroglyphs found in Utah. Right. I mean, hieroglyphs in the fact that they're relief carvings. But, you know, nothing, nothing near as intricate and smooth and polished as the stuff you'll find in Egypt. But they do exist. And there are even some, you know, on this ranch in Vernal that we're going to talk about.

I definitely want to ask you about several specific sites that I've seen on your Instagram. I want to start off asking you about these dry fork petroglyphs. Sure. I think you pronounce it Utah. Is it Uinta Basin? Yeah, that's a big one for outsiders. It's the Uintasin. I've seen people that are like the Uintaw, and I'm like,

you're giving us too much credit. We're just a bunch of simple cowboys out here. The Uinta Basin is actually named after the Ute tribe that still resides in that area. There's a Ute reservation out there. There's an Ure reservation out there. There's payutes out there. So that's what the area is named for. Okay.

I see, you know, all these photos of these famous petrogrygifts like you mentioned, the ones ancient aliens have made famous and is it Segal Canyon. But nobody had ever showed me this guy of this. Basically, I don't want to blow it yet, but the six-fingered big, So, and we wrote an article about this featured on megalithic marvels.com. I'll link to that in the show notes. Anybody can go click that and kind of basically read what Abby wrote about the specific group of petroglyphs.

But just break it down for us. Tell us what makes these so unique, bizarre, and weird compared to a lot of those that people have seen, these they haven't seen. So the rock art in the Uinta Basin is. referred to as classic vernal style. And vernal is a prominent town up in the UNA basin. It's probably the biggest city. And it's just outside of Dinosaur National Monument and near, between the towns of Roosevelt and Jensen on, what is that highway? I think it's the 40 that goes through there and then it ends up going, you know, up to Wyoming or into Colorado. You know, it's just up in the northeastern

corner. And classic vernal style often contains large anthropomorphic figures. like a lot of other rock art in Utah. They have trapezoidal shaped bodies. They have round, triangular, or bucket-shaped heads on average. And they typically have some kind of headdress on, as well as a lot of embellishment across their chests and their shoulders. That's an indicator of classic vernal style. And the vernal style petroglyphs are part of the Fremont culture.

The Fremont culture was after the archaic culture. And it was divided up into a couple of different. different regions of Utah, where they were all part of a larger culture, but they definitely had different bands that were doing their own subcultures during that time period. And up in the UNA Basin, they were called the, they call them the UNA Basin, Fremont people. And there are multiple styles of this rock art throughout the UNABasin, and you can find it in Dinosaur National Monument. It's along the banks of the Green River. But there is a collection of it outside of of the town of Bernal in a place that's referred to as Dry Fort Canyon or Ashley Creek.

That's oftentimes the name that is given to this area of Rockhart. But a lot of it is located on private land, you know, ranches and farms and people that have been there for literally generations. And because that's the case, a lot of it is inaccessible. However, one of the landowners back in the 70s decided they wanted to open up their property to the public because they had been dealing with trespassers and they were afraid that, you know, if people found out this was there but didn't have permission to go, they would just go anyways. And if they weren't, you know, fostering some kind of stewardship for it, they were

afraid that the panels would get vandalized. So it's called McConkey Ranch. And the landowners actually got it made into a Utah State historical site back in 1975 because they just, they wanted to preserve it and protect it. So when you go to this place, it's just outside of the town of Bernal, and you can park in a public parking lot, and they have a cute little log cabin set up where you can go in, sign the registry, make a little donation.

There's a refrigerator full of bottled water if you need something for the trail during the summer heat. They're really sweet. And the mere fact that it is open to people is just incredible. But, you know, once you get in and, you know, pay your little do and go up the trails, you go up to these cliff bases where all of this incredible rock art is. And it's hard to even describe it.

It's unlike anything else you have ever seen, which is why it caught your eye when I first posted stuff online. It's multiple, multiple, multiple trapezoidal shaped anthropomorphs, but they're completely unique to other things in the area in that you have not only this Bigfoot panel that we're going to get into, but you also have something that is not in other rock art panels anywhere else in Utah that I have personally seen. And that is figures of people standing inside these circular shapes. And, you know, archaeologists have commented that, oh, they must be shields.

They're holding shields. But when you look at the rock art, they're not standing behind. a solid mass, they are standing inside of this circular shape. It almost looks like they're coming out of a tunnel or out of a portal or something. It's really unique to the area. And I haven't seen any other rock art like that anywhere else in the state. Along with these portal figures, you also have a really unique set of figures that are holding severed heads. And, you know, headhunting is something that archaeologists talk about being, you know, present during ancient times. But this is kind of the only depiction of that kind of behavior or activity that is in any of the rock art in Utah.

And it's, it's pretty intense. They are holding these heads, which have been streaked with pictograph paint, where, you know, there is actually red blood flowing out of them. and they have pecked tear stains down their faces. And it's not one or two of them. I mean, there are multiple, multiple severed heads on this panel. And, you know, it could have been an indicator that they were a warlike people, that they were fighting with neighboring tribes. There isn't really any other indications of that in Fremont rock art other places,

but, you know, it is possible that it's just that they were a warring people. but it's hard to say. But among this group of bloody and chaotic figures is what has become known as the Mokonky Ranch Bigfoot, which is the panel that I posted that you saw. And to describe him, he has six fingers on each of his hands, and he appears to be next to a severed head that's next to his elbow. And he has a large bucket-shaped head.

He appears to be smiling, and he has two massive feet. They are as wide as his entire body with his outstretched arms. And typically on rock art panels, especially Fremont Rock Art panels, you're lucky to get depictions of feet at all. Oftentimes they are just, you know, tall, ghostly anthropomorphic figures that don't have feet. But these are huge. And he's the only one of his kind. There are not any others like him.

and aside from the giant feet, he also has a really unique long spear that is coming down through his body, like through the shoulder area. And you don't see that anywhere else on these panels where he's located either. Totally unique, his own deal. So the fact that he appears to have an appendage between his legs leads me to believe that he was deemed a mortal. So oftentimes in these panels, especially with the spirit figures, when they don't have arms or legs, it's kind of the agreed upon point that they were spirits or interdimensional beings or, you know, as ancient aliens would call them, they were extraterrestrials. But anytime there is a person with arms and legs, it's usually depicted as being either the shaman who was conducting the journey or, you know, one of the tribe members, a mortal being.

So the fact that he has, you know, arms and giant feet and a penis leads me to believe that he was a flesh and blood person or creature or something that was among the tribe. So, you know, with that, I'm sure that some of your followers are probably thinking about the fact that, you know, polydactylism and the six fingers is a legend that's, you know, prominent throughout different parts of him. history on different continents. There are legends in the Middle East of an ancient race of giants that possessed polydactylism. And polydactalism means they have extra digits, extra fingers, extra toes. And there are legends of a red-haired tribe of giant cannibals in the Paiute tribe in Nevada, which was also given a lot of attention by ancient aliens back in the day. none of the remains that have ever been found there have, you know, proven that there was a polydactal group of giants living there, although some people claim that to cover up too. So I don't know enough about it to say. But the Navajo tribe down to the southwest of Utah also has, you know, legends of six-toed cats and other supernatural beings that possess polydactalism, you know, six digits.

I find it interesting that the Bigfoot character on this panel has six fingers on each hand, but he appears to only have five toes on each foot. So I don't know what that's about, but what do you think? Yeah, I mean, I was just so fascinated by these petroglyphs as a whole, because first off, tell me if I'm right in this. These are not only petroglyphs, but they're like, You said they also are pictographs in a sense where they've got the painted blood. So that kind of makes them special that they're both.

They are. It's kind of like extra work went into this. When you look at, I mean, when I'm looking at these petrogoths, very detailed, like you said, the heads, the severed heads have chiseled out like teardrops. Mm-hmm. It looks like on the Bigfoot figurine, he's got some kind of necklace around that almost, you know, it kind of looks 3D in nature. And then, so they're very colorful. It's a petroglyph pictograph combination. You've got these guys coming out of these circles or orbs.

Like you said, they don't look like shields to me because it looks like they're coming out of them. So that's very fascinating. And as I look at it. Oh, go ahead. Yeah, I know. And then you've got, again, several of them holding severed heads. So, I mean, it's like these are head hunters. and and then some of them appear to have horns and what other crazy okay and then in one photo

it shows it's like it's the biggest collection of a group of these figures um on the kind of near the top they're very large and one's got a head in the middle and then near the bottom they're smallish do you think this is adults and children or might this be hybrid-type giants and normal humans below them? I mean, it's anybody's guess. Anything's possible. I will say that as far as depictions of children go on these panels, they are rare. A lot of times you will find ceremonial pictograph and petroglyph panels that contain things

for fertility where they're looking to, you know, bear a child. There's even depictions of, you know, there's a panel down in Moab called the birthing panel. where it's actually a depiction of a woman giving birth to a baby in breach. And you can see the feet coming out. But as far as, you know, just depictions of children on the panels, they're not very common. Okay,

that's interesting to know because as I look closer now at this, this one I'm referring to, the figure on the bottom right actually looks very, it actually has horns. I mean, pretty pronounced, right? So I guess that wouldn't be a child. So again, maybe this is some kind of depictions of a giant. So back to the Bigfoot guy, I'm glad you point out.

I know on the one hand, he definitely has six fingers. I couldn't tell on the other for sure, but you're confirming that it sounds like. It does look. It appears that he does have six fingers on each hand. And you make the point that a lot of the kind of the tall, limbless depictions, you know, might represent a godlike entity. whereas those that have appendages are likely human. And then you mentioned, you know, the polydactalism. Again, that takes me back to my studies into Genesis 6.

You know, the Bible even talks about this ancient race of giants and even mentions polydactalism. And then I was just interviewing Dr. Gregory Little. I don't know if you've heard of him. He's one of the foremost experts on the ancient mounds of America. Oh, cool. And he's done research with, man, he's written so many books on this. But he's, you know, he's gone through all the Smithsonian publications and all the photos. He kind of like what you do with these petroglyph photos on your Instagram.

He does on Twitter with all of the old Smithsonian photos. He's documenting all the mounds and the artifacts found in the mounds. And his conclusion is pretty insane. And it's that, you know, thousands upon thousands of years ago, whether it was 8,000 or 10,000, when these mound building culture was thriving, you know, the basic civilization was primitive. But the ruling elites were these seven to eight foot tall peoples that he says are related to the Denisivans, you know, from Genozova, the cave, where they found these massive molar. So he says he does believe there was this race of giants, if you want to call them that, at least seven to eight feet that seemed to have ruled over the rest of the masses. So that makes me go to at least these petroglyphs with the dry canyon, the Bigfoot.

Could these have been the ancient people's depictions of some of these elite rulers? And I like how you ask that question in your Instagram post in our article. Are these like a warlike tribe, or might this be some kind of ruling elite godlike demigod entities, right? Yeah, some kind of a worshipped, you know, a little bit higher up the chain than the rest of the village. Yeah. I know that, you know, there are legends of the giants and things like God coming out of Nevada. And as far as Utah is concerned, I haven't really heard, you know, much of anything about it. except for this panel where this guy is clearly just unique and on his own.

And we were kind of talking about it before we started recording. As far as all of the rock art textbooks go, they all talk about the Dry Fork Canyon area because it is so impressive. I think the Smithsonian said it was the most impressive display of rock art in North America. And they're not wrong. But I found it very interesting that in these texts, nobody mentions the Bigfoot panel. You know, they talk about all of these others. And, you know, it could be something as simple as the fact that when you're writing a textbook on rock art, you're kind of looking to quantify things. You're looking to categorize things. So it's, you know, when you read them, they're very dry. They're very academic and they're talking about, you know, 14% of panels contain a person with this kind of headdress. And 70% of panels will contain, you know, anthropomorphic figures with horns. And four percent of the panels contain a cocopel pelle. kind of figure that's playing a flute.

And it could just be that because he's so unique and he's such a one-off, they don't bother mentioning him. But it is interesting to me that he hasn't gotten the attention that I kind of feel like he deserves because he is so unique and he is so rare. And there's nothing out there really like him. I wanted to bring up the fact that, you know, because you're familiar with Skinwalker Ranch, Skinwalker Ranch is located only 30 miles as the crow flies from this rock art panel. And they have found rock art on the property.

I haven't been keeping up with the show. There's a show The Secret of Skinwalker Ranch on the History Channel. And it's not because of lack of interest. I've just been raising a kid and haven't had time for a lot of TV. But I follow the owner on Instagram and kind of keep tabs on what's going on out there just because I did read the book back in the day and it's a fascinating topic, but they have found rock art out there. And one of the craziest stories that's come from that area was from the original owner in the 1990s who said that, you know, one day he had a guy stopped by the property

who, you know, if I recall, he was like drawn to the property. He just wanted to go there and he wanted to meditate and he wanted to have, you know, some time. And, you know, being a cowboy cattle rancher, the owner at the time, who they call Tom in the book, which isn't his real name. Tom was kind of like, okay, you can come in. And as the man sat down to meditate out by the homestead on the property, Tom saw something out of the corner of his eye and couldn't really tell what it was, but there was like a blurry mass that was making its way across the field toward this man who was meditating with his eyes closed.

and he couldn't find the words to describe it. He was like, you know, it was tall, like nine feet tall. But it was almost as if it were cloaked. It, you know, you could see this mass moving almost like a weird mirror reflection or something that was going through the field. And it was coming up on this guy fast. And when it got to the dude, I think Tom might have even called out like, hey. And at that point, whatever this thing was, let out a roar. that Tom described as like being a mix between like a lion and a bear and had no explanation for

what it was, but, you know, it took off running and, you know, this guy that was meditating in the field fell to pieces, said like this intense feeling of fear and dread washed over him and he had to get out of there. But there are also other stories from that property of these strange portals opening up and people seeing like crazy black hairy creatures crawling out of them. I don't know. And anytime that anything has ever come up as far as what I've seen, it's been pretty grainy and blurry footage.

It's obviously hard to document. But these stories are out there. And it does make me wonder if it is one of these things where if there is some kind of paranormal activity going on out there where you have some kind of rip in the sky or, you know, a dimensional rift where things can come and go, would that apply to something of this nature, something giant? And in fact, I think in the book, later on that year,

the owner of the ranch was watching the movie Predator with Arnold Schwarzenegger. And when it got to the part where it was like the, the predator was cloaked in the forest, he kind of did that Leonardo DiCaprio, like, you know, like, that's it. That's what I saw. And he told everybody, like, Like, that was what I was looking at. It was just this weird mess that was booking it across the property. And it was nine feet tall, but I don't know what it was.

And it was like cloaked in something that couldn't let me see it. So you get these wackadoodle stories out of the UNA basin and I don't know what to make of it. But I find it very interesting that, you know, that property is only 30 miles away. And McConkey Ranch has ancient depictions of people coming out of circles and strange big-footed creatures and warring people that aren't anything like anything else in the Fremont culture as far as the rock arts concerned. And, you know, there are gravesites where you'll find, you know, mass graves of people that were murdered during warfare between tribes, where one tribe showed up in the middle of the night, killed the entire village, threw them in a pit,

and then took off. Those kind of stories are here, but it's nothing like what's depicted in the wind basin. It's, yeah, that's so fascinating. I don't, I think that's a very important point to make. The Skinwalker Ranch is literally 30 miles from these petroglyphs where you've got this strange depiction of this entity or figurine with these massive feet, like you said. As wide as his arms go out on the sides. He's got six fingers.

He's got, now do you think this is a fancy hat or it might this be in the same? elongated school with horns? So I think that the top part, the bucket portion is his head, but as far as the rays that the lines that are coming out the side, those are often

depicted as rays of light on other panels where it's meant to show like a beam coming from behind them. Especially, you know, Barrier Canyon rock art has a lot of that, where it's a really tall, crazy, anthropomorphic spirit, godlike figure.

then they will have rays coming out like it was engulfed in light. So when it comes to the big foot, I think that the bucket portion is his head, but I think that the rays on the side are probably depictions of light coming from behind him. So in a weird way, that gets me even more excited that you think the head is actually elongated and not just some fancy hat or headdress. So we could possibly have a big-footed, six-fingered,

elongated skull depiction of this figurine 30 miles from Skinwalker Ranch. And so again, where my head goes is, was the ancient artist who made this depicting what he saw or maybe what his ancestors even said they saw according to their oral traditions? And again, might this be depicting some kind of hybrid demigod from the old world for those who follow the Nephilim from Genesis. 6-4. The Bible basically says they, you know, they were, they descended. They were on the earth in those days and also after the flood. So did they also descend on this side of the world at some point? Or like you said, might they have come through some kind of portal or Stargate, again, related to this strange region and Skinwalker Ranch? So it's crazy to consider. And I also wanted to

ask you about. I want to let you know about our megalithic marvels of Peru tour coming this October 2nd through the 12th, 2003. This is going to be the expedition of a lifetime, a 11-day adventure to the heart of Peru, where we are going to explore the amazing megalithic ruins in the Kusco area. And we're also going to learn about the amazing Inca Empire. We're going to see all the major sites like Machu Picchu, Bojante Tambo, Soxay Waman, but then we're going to visit probably 20-plus what I would call Megalithic gems, sites that you may have never heard of before, but that are equally incredible. And so space is limited to about the first 25, I believe. You can go to megalithic marvels.com slash tours to get all the info and to register and reserve your spot.

And you're going to have to remind me, I know it's a barrier canyon style. But it's this guy, this depiction that looks almost like a bug with antennas and his arms are off to the side. And it's like he's shooting something. What tells us about that? So this is a panel that I have been dying to see. This panel is very unique in that it's a barrier cany. site that was not even documented until about 11 years ago. So it doesn't appear in any of the textbooks. It's not in any of the old archaeological information about Barrier Canyon rock art.

And it contains a couple of things on this panel that are so strange. The one that you're talking about with the antenna and he looks as if he's almost like shooting something out of these long, claw-like hands. He is a figure that is a little bit common in that area in that there are creatures like him found in other panels nearby. In the past,

there's another prominent panel that's up by the I-70 near the San Rafael swell called the Head of Sinbad. And the head of Sinbad is a very similar creature where they have, you know, kind of these googly bug eyes and antenna. and they often are depicted with some kind of an animal spirit helper. And, you know, on the head of Sinbad, it's like a small little dog figure.

And on this panel, it almost, I'm sure it's some kind of dog or something. It almost looks like an armadillo to me, although those are not in Utah, so, you know, hard to say what that means. But this panel is about five miles into the San Rafael Swell, and you have to, you know, hike up a wash, drop down into another canyon. It's really remote. I ended up finding it because a four-wheeler blog had posted GPS cord, and it's like, hey, look at this cool thing we found while we was out four-wheel and ain't that crazy?

And when I saw it, it blew my mind. It was the coolest thing I'd ever seen. And I mapped out the route and couldn't go because I was pregnant when I found it and had to wait until my daughter was a little older, so she's three now. And we actually went down there and found it for the first time this month. And when you come up on this panel, it has a couple of things going on. So at the top is this bug-eyed creature with antenna. And he looks to be shooting like comets out of his hands.

And, you know, some archaeologists say that, oh, like stuff like that is bird. But there are birds on other panels. There are crows. There are owls. There are ravens. They look nothing like these shapes. So he's shooting something strange out of his hands. And they do almost look like comets or balls of fire, which is interesting in and of itself.

And then off to the left of him is another tall anthropomorphic spirit figure with no legs, no arms. and he's got a snake and a couple of like leaping sheep near him. And then at the bottom of the panel, you have another big, tall anthropomorphic figure that appears to be, it's almost as if his body is raining. You know, it looks like falling rain. But below that creature in the middle of this panel

is something so strange, so unique. I haven't seen it depicted in any other sites. and it just blows my mind. So if I can geek out on that for a minute, I'd love to. The figure, you know, the one that's in the middle of the panel is a half circle, which has roaming four-legged quadruped beasts inside of it. And it's got little circles inside of the panel. And it looks like it almost has an absolute.

atmospheric layer. So there's a half circle and then there's another layer of circle on top of that that has been filled in with white. And then above this sphere that has roaming beasts inside of it, there are two free-floating figures that have domes over their heads and some weird circle below their feet, almost as if they're hovering on top of like some kind of a ball. And there used to be three figures, but the third figure has washed away because it's actually in a rain runoff channel on the rock, and they've been there for so long, but every time it rains, the mineral deposits washed down the face of the rock and have eroded away, the third one. And then, you know, one of these figures is holding what appears to be a staff that is piercing down through the atmosphere

or the membrane of this half circle. And there's other strange squiggly lines that, that are going into the sphere that almost look like lightning. There's a physicist out there who claims that it is really similar to a plasma burst, which is something that he believes a lot of rock art depicts in ancient times, as if there was a solar flare so large that it actually enveloped the entire Earth and all of these ancient people were depicting this massive solar flare and all of this plasma activity that was happening in the upper atmosphere at the time. That's another story.

but you know this figure of this this half circle with the beings and this you know the spear that's piercing through it it's it's unlike anything else i've ever seen and it is absolutely incredible to me yeah it's absolutely wild and so this is all in the same panel i can see there's so much going on from this original figure this insectil and looking one we talked about shooting the stuff the huge huge, huge entity to his left. And then, yeah, underneath, and I'm going to feature all these. So if you're not seeing them, just click the link in the show notes to everybody watching or listening to see what we're talking about here. But this is absolutely bizarre. I mean, there's so many different possibilities. Do you, Abby, have a specific theory on what personally you think that might be going on in this, this one you just referenced? So the reason that I love it so much is because to me it almost feels like it is a representation of the macro and the micro simultaneously. Because when I posted this, I had other people reach out that were like, I know you think this kind of looks like a planet and an atmosphere, but to me, it really looks like a cellular membrane.

And that looks like mitochondrone inside a cell. Like, you're looking at DNA. And I went, oh, really? So the fact that, you know, it could be a representation of something viewed from space or the fact that it could be a representation of something viewed under a microscope. And it was depicted on a rock surface anywhere from 1,400 to 4,000 years ago. It blows my mind. It's the craziest thing, you know?

And it's something where Barrier Canyon Rock Art is nuts in and of itself. And it's very shamanic in nature. So it does lead me to wonder, was Barrier Canyon Rock Art something where they were on hallucinogens and were experiencing things like this? You know, it makes me think of the story of, what's the name of the doctor? the doctor who basically discovered DNA made a confession in his old age to his wife before he passed away that he was like,

I need to tell you, I need to tell somebody. When I first saw the double helic structure of DNA, I was high on LSD. And his wife was kind of like, oh, okay, great, interesting. And there are a lot of people that have engaged in psychoactive drugs that have talked about seeing things that they don't comprehend, that they don't understand, but that have to do with a much grander scale than

where they're at. So this is a kind of panel that really did make me say like, okay, what were these people privy to? What were these people experiencing? Was this something that was brought on by hallucinogens or trans states, altered states of consciousness? how did they know to make this? And what is it? Because no matter what it's a depiction of, it's wild. It's just wild. So it is one of those things where I just,

it just makes me more curious. I don't know. Yeah, when I see this and I just, you know, kind of focus my eyes on it for a few seconds, the word that first comes to mind is genetics. Is this some kind of genetic breeding program that's depicted here that looks like some kind of

what do you want to call it womb or something where these they're breeding something, they're growing something because there's clearly what, one, two, three, four,

five creatures inside this sack or again, membrane, whatever this is. Yeah. What do you think those creatures might be? Do they look like chimeric?

Are they animals? They do look a little bit chimeric. If you zoom in on them, a lot of their faces have either been, you know, worn off throughout the hundreds of years that they've been sitting on this rock face. But the one on the far right, you can zoom in on that face and it is a little bit human. It doesn't look like anything we have on Earth, at least. It doesn't look like any creatures that we currently have. The lightning bolt that seems to be penetrating through the membrane also, you know, reminds me of the sperm and the egg.

It's very, you know, it reminds me of an egg and fertilization and things like that. So, you know, I've talked with other people about the fact that maybe this is a depiction of directed panspermia, which is a popular theory with people who are into aliens where, you know, there's a theory out there that we arrived on Earth through the form of comets or were actually mindfully seated on. planet earth by another race of people. So it's something that conjures up curiosity about that topic for me. I just don't know. But, you know, when... There's got to be people, too, that are going to see this and go, man, that's got to have

something to do with alien abductions. When you see the one figure holding something, I just, I'm sure I'm going to get that comment at some point. Of course. Yeah, it's wild. And there's, you know, there are other strange ones down there. Another theory that actually I wanted to talk about this with you because it sent me down the biggest rabbit hole. We posted a collaborative video together on Instagram just recently of that big foot figure up in the UNA Basin. And somebody named Dave commented on that video and said, hey, have you looked into the works of a plasma physicist named Anthony Parrat. And I said, I've never even heard of this guy. What's he

into? And he said, you know, you need to look him up. He's got some published papers. You can find him on academia.edu. But basically, he's a plasma physicist who got a look at ancient rock art, you know, after he was well into his career where he was doing tests in laboratories behind, you know, 10 feet of lead to make sure nobody was getting radiation. And they were doing all of these studies as to how plasma reacts under various conditions. And he said that a lot of it ended up reminding him of these ancient petroglyphs that he was being shown by a friend. And he said, you know, where did you find these? And the guy said, it's just rock art.

It's everywhere. And he said, when were they made? And he said, thousands of years ago, they've been around forever. So that sent Anthony down a rabbit hole where he ended up investigating rock art from, you know, multiple continents all over the world and finding that there were these similar shapes that were taking place on all of these panels. And for him, with his, you know, with all of the smarts he has about plasma physics, he basically was under the impression that at some point in ancient times, a high current Z-pinch plasma toroid, Aurora, occurred in the upper atmosphere of the earth that, like, mimicked or displayed the same way that Z-pinches display in plasma stability and instability data when they're doing tests in the laboratory. And he suggested that the occurrence of an intense aurora that may have been produced if solar winds

had been increased between one or two orders of magnitude in ancient times would have made this intense aurora that enveloped the entire earth in this phenomenon. And it would have been something that all of these ancient cultures, especially along a certain latitude degree around the center of the earth, would have been able to see if their village had a view of magnetic south in the sky. And after going into some of his work, it blew me away. And a lot of the shapes that he was referring to and the different petroglyphs from Australia, from Europe, from Africa, from Arizona, from New Mexico match a ton of stuff you find on panels in Utah. So that just, you know, sent me on this wild goose chase just this week where I was like, I don't know what to do with this.

This is wild. And because my ADHD brain is all about trying to make correlations constantly, it also made me think of another experiment that maybe you're familiar with. Have you ever heard of a God helmet? No. So there is this apparatus that was used and was being studied in the 90s. And I forget the name of the scientist. I really should look up his name. But there was an apparatus that a group of scientists had made where it was kind of like a crash helmet that had an electromagnetic coil wired inside of it.

and they were trying to do studies on the temporal lobes of humans and how the temporal lobes would be affected if they were introduced to very mild electromagnetic currents. And so they would bring people into a room and they would put this helmet on them. They would turn off the lights. They would blindfold them. And then they would fire up this magnet to see how it altered their brainwaves, what they, and they would live narrate their experience to the scientists for the data. and a huge percentage of people that ended up doing this study claimed that once they fired up that magnet,

they could sense presences in the room, they could feel dead relatives nearby, they were visited by what they called angels, some people said they were visited by aliens, like everybody came out of that experience saying, I felt something, I felt what people perceived to be as God when you fired up that magnet. And it got me into this mindset of, okay, if people in ancient times were experiencing some kind of solar flare that enveloped the entire earth in an Aurora Borealis, that intense. And that kind of electromagnetism just blasted the earth all at once. What was it doing to those people's temporal lobes on that level?

You know, is that something where they were all having a mass hallucination? and they were experiencing these spirits? Did they think they actually saw them? Or would something like that actually have the power to lift the veil between dimensions where they were seeing things that they couldn't explain that had not been there before? But now clearly were.

You know, it's just, I get sucked into all these crazy tangents and it all just makes me endlessly curious. But these kind of panels end up stirring up those kind of thoughts. for me. No, those are wild theories. I can't. Incredible to think about for sure. I definitely wanted to ask you before I forget about another petroglyph.

And this might, again, this is a Bear Your Canyon style, you say. And it might be near the insectoid one we just talked about. But you've got several photos of this guy. And I think it's the seven foot tall ones where there's, they're all limbless and there's there's like one two three four five five to seven dark ones surrounding this very large kind of white looking almost robot drone entity tell me about that so this panel is part of a massive panel that is called the great gallery the great gallery is located within an annexed canyon that is actually way outside of Canyonlands National Park,

but it's of such historical value that the National Park system actually annexed to this canyon to give it the protection it deserves. It's about an hour and a half south of Green River and about two hours west of Moab. And if you go during the spring or the fall, you can actually go on ranger-led hikes to go down to see it. And the great thing about going on that hike is that the ranger will stop at all of these other panels along the way, because that great gallery, as massive and as impressive as it is, is not the only thing down there. So it's really cool to get to go down and see all of this. But it ends up being about a 10-mile hike, and you're descending 800 feet down into this canyon. And then you've got to go 800 feet back up. But when you get down there,

you're met with something like 50 figures, and they are all at least six feet tall. They are all individually unique. They have their own heads. They have their own patterns in their bodies. No two look alike. And this panel that you're talking about in particular is off to the left in an alcove next to this long procession of figures.

And it's known as the Holy Ghost panel. that's what the Mormon pioneers called it when they first saw it. And the Holy Ghost panel has the tallest figure of the group, which is the one you're talking about. It almost looks robotic. It has big square eyes in this crazy head with lines and embellishment. And he is nine feet tall. He is a monster, especially compared to the others. And, you know, the fact that he's surrounded by all these other dark figures is really interesting.

because the other figures don't really have discernible features. And that panel, they have said, is probably like 800 to 2,000 years old, according to the newest dating that they've been trying to do to it. But yeah, the Holy Ghost panel is also unique because that figure is one of the only depictions of any kind of dimensionality in rock art in Utah. So the fact that his head,

you can kind of see the sides as well as, the eyes is a really rare and unique thing. You know, he's, he was obviously of great note and, you know, got special attention from the artist when they made him. But that entire area is just mind-boggling. It is something like 50 figures on this wall and none of them have arms and legs. They are all just giant anthropomorphic spirit figures. Some of them have, you know, round big bug eyes. Some have no eyes. Some have no eyes. Some have like long slits for eyes. And there's only one, you know, figure on the panel that matches their size that has

arms and legs. And, you know, some archaeologists believe that he's the shaman that took the trip and met with all of these beings. Other people have depicted him as like a cocopelli figure with a flute. You know, he kind of looks like he's blowing on a flute, but he's not. This staff of whatever he's holding is actually like piercing through his. chest and going out the other side. So I don't know that I believe that he's a flute player, but it's likely to me that he is

probably the shaman that experienced the trip and then made the art. Yeah, fascinating because like if the dark colored figures are six feet, this guy must be seven to eight. He's nine. Oh, he's nine feet. Okay, so you've got a nine foot tall. I mean, that was. Okay.

because the picture alone is fascinating to look at. I can't imagine walking up and realizing this is literally larger than life, nine feet tall. And it literally, like you said, it's got a 3D head. You can see the sides. It looks robotic. And one of the guys next to him is flowing off the ground. There's so much going on here that, and again, how far would this be from Skinwalker Ranch?

So the barrier canyon stuff is probably Highway-wise, it's probably a four-hour drive between those. But as the crow flies, I want to say it's like 200 miles. So barrier canyon is kind of its own deal. It is, it's down in the very central deserts of Utah, and it's very much confined to the canyons, the Red Rock canyons of that area.

And the desert archaic people that were there were still very nomadic. They weren't a culture that was planting down roots yet. That didn't happen until later when people started actually becoming agricultural. So they weren't there the entire time. You know, they kind of moved around and did things. But that area just has nothing but anthropomorphic art. You know, when you get into the Fremont culture and when you get into the basket maker and the ancestral Pueblo and stuff, you know, it is a lot of fertility panels and depictions of sex and sheep and big hunts and, you know, depictions of rain and things where the tribe was obviously celebrating stuff that was part of its everyday life.

But the anthropomorphic stuff in barrier canyon art is almost always and only these giant spirit figures that either don't have eyes or have giant bug eyes. and there's really nothing else like it. That's fascinating. You said the Mormon pioneers called it the Holy Ghost panel or the Holy Ghost figure. Mm-hmm. Wow. So they likened it to, you know, the Holy Trinity, you know, God that bothered Jesus and the Holy Ghost. That's kind of what the lens that they saw it through.

So that's what it's called when you look it up in the books. Well, Abby, I want to respect your time. This has been a fascinating interview. To everybody watching or listening, you definitely want to follow Abby on Instagram. If you're on Instagram, go follow her account. I think it's at Abby Warnock Matthews, correct?

W-A-R-N-O-C-K. And then Matthews has two T's. And Abby B-I-E. It's a long one. Follow her. She's got great photos. She's putting out some great reels. We collaborated on a reel with this Bigfoot fig green.

So check that out. I think it's got over 100,000 views by now already. It's a popular one. Yeah, Abby, is there any other way people can follow you and follow your photography? So I did make a point to upload all of my rock art to my print page. You know, my day job is outfitting offices with landscape wall art. So that's what I'm doing, nine to five during Monday through Friday. But I've had a lot of people request that I upload the.

rock art to there because there are other rock art nerds that just want nice prints of this stuff. So people are more than welcome to go there to see everything as well. You don't have to purchase it if you don't want, but you can definitely check out, you know, big high-res versions of all of this rock art that I've been photographing throughout the Southwest. And my website is just Abimathieuphoto.com. A-B-B-B-B-I-E-M-T-H-E-W-S photo.com. So that's also a great resource to be able to go and check out all that rock art. Yeah, if you're able to go. to Abby Matthews photo.com, you said, right? Mm-hmm.

And purchase one of these high-res, amazing panoramic photos of these petroglyphs that we're talking about. Do you have the bigfoot guy on there too? I do. Okay. I'm going to have to go check that out then. It's pretty great. Abby, any parting words for us before we call this an interview?

One thing that I really am always hyper aware of when I talk about this stuff is the fact that rock art is beautiful, rock art is inspiring, rock art is amazing, but it's also very vulnerable. And I think that is probably part of the reason that a lot of this stuff hasn't been talked about on a bigger stage is that once you get into the field, then you start looking at this stuff, you become protective of it. and you are afraid of anything to happen to it because there are quite a few vandalized panels, you know, throughout this nation of ours from people who don't know better or who have animosity about it or who knows what. So I would probably tell people, if you do go to these panels and you go to visit, please be respectful. The oils in your hands can actually damage the desert varnish and the pictograph pigment that these were created with. So please refrain from touching them, even just with your hands. Obviously, don't add your own stuff to the panel. Don't be disrespectful.

And a lot of this stuff is actually located on National Monument or National Park Land where if you are caught vandalizing it, you're looking at massive fines and possible prison times. So I would also advise people to just be aware of that. But, you know, it's special. It's still sacred to the descendants of these people who do still exist. in this country and, you know, hold ceremonial rituals at some of these places and hold these, you know, these panels in very high regard. So if you're going to go see it, please go see it. Tell people it exists. Let people know it's out there. I want people to know it's out there.

But just make sure to be very careful and respectful when you go and leave no trace. Well said. Well said, yeah, the prison time alone's enough to make me not want to be. Seems like a really lame way to go. Well, Abby, again, thank you so much for your time. This was great. And look forward to seeing more of your photos and videos on Instagram and elsewhere in the future. That'd be great. I'm honored to be here. Thank you so much.