Mention It All - It’s Good To Be Bad Ft. Heather Gay

Episode Date: February 20, 2023

Heather Gay returns to the podcast, this time as a New York Times bestselling author, to discuss her powerful memoir, Bad Mormon. She and Dylan get into some of the most interesting pieces of Heather���s story, from growing up in the LDS Church, to finding her way out of a troubled marriage. They also discuss the initial casting process for RHOSLC, which was anything but straightforward. Later, Heather answers some major questions about RHOSLC, and gets real about whether her relationship with Whitney can ever be repaired. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Ha ha, laugh, funny. Mention It All, a Bravo by Betches podcast. We don't say that, but now we said it. With me, Dylan Hafer. We're going to check me, both. Hey, everyone. Welcome back to the Mention at All podcast. I am Dylan Hafer, and today it is Residence Day, holiday Monday.

We have got a special episode for you. Coming up just in a few minutes, I sat down with Heather Gay to talk about her new book, Bad Mormon, which is out now. We had a lovely conversation. I personally really enjoyed the book. I thought it was very insightful, very moving. It's the perfect balance of like a really interesting personal story and then a nice little side of Housewives tea at the end. There's a lot of good background on kind of how Housewives of Salt Lake City came together, stuff that I hadn't heard before, stuff that I think you'll find really interesting. And, you know, in our conversation, we also

talked a little bit about this season of Salt Lake. We got into the reunion and I think you'll like it. So stay tuned for that in just a few minutes. But first, I want to have, I want to go through a couple updates because we recorded that a couple weeks ago. So I, you know, I want to keep it fresh. And today, Jen Shaw is somewhere in Texas, or in the Texas region, according to her publicist. Before she got carted off, she gave a nice little last statement to people, resolved to make her victim's whole, her turn her life around is unyielding, committed to serving her sentence,

courage and purpose, decided to make amends. no obstacle will deter Jen from making the most of her time in prison and she is determined to make restitution. Good for her. She is required by law to do so. The unwavering love and support of her family and friends, Jen is prepared to face these challenges head on.

You know, whatever. She's going to help others in her new community. Her new community behind bars for the next six and a half years, somewhere in the Texas region. You know, I hope Jen is well. I hope she's getting along just fine. She got some new tattoos, last week with her, she got one that's like, it's like all in cursive and it says

Sharif Omar Sharif, like all kind of in one word. So that's cute. SOS. You know, I hope Jen is thriving. I'm sure she's thriving. How could somebody like Jen Shahn not thrive in prison? Like, she'll be fine. Salt Lake City is filming again.

Who knows how that's going? Beverly Hills is filming again. Ah. These ladies putting us through the ringer. Day in, day out. We've had so many guests coming on lately. We've got some more coming up. I, you know, the guest schedule has been so busy.

I haven't even had a chance to talk about Vanderpump rules yet. Oh, and I have thoughts. This season so far, it is, it's giving everything. I wanted to give. I was talking to one of my co-workers last week, and it is so poetic in such a specific way that all it took for Vanderpump Rules to get good again was just, you know, three long-term relationships to disintegrate. Just a little bit of devastation, a little bit of heartbreak, and, you know, snap, crackle pop, we've got a great TV show on our hands once again. I hope everyone's doing well, you know, problems are hard.

Divorce is hard. Lala didn't know all this stuff about Rand. Lisa Vanderpump thinks she is, maybe she did. I don't know. I hope everyone's okay. It's not a good situation. But this season I am loving. We're two episodes in, not one, one sighting of Brock. Not one.

You guys, we won. We got what we wanted. We succeeded. It is pretty hilarious that last season, They were like, okay, full steam ahead. Sheena's in this relationship. They had a baby together. We're going to make this man a full-time cast member on the show.

He's important. How could you do it without him? And he fumbled that fucking bag so bad. They're not just demoting him a little bit. They're not just, you know, cutting and snipping his scenes here and there. It's like the man doesn't exist anymore. One of the best editing decisions on Bravo. I know we're going to see their wedding later in the season.

I know our undefeated streak of not seeing Brock will come to an end at some point. But wow. We really won. We won you guys. I think Katie is going to have a great season. James looks like a fucking clown. Raquel also maybe looks a little bit like a clown, but in a different way from James. There's just, Vanderpump Rules is once again a rich text.

And that is all I ask. You know, that's all I want. And I'm so happy. So we will be talking more about Van der Pump Rules throughout the season. I promise we will get some good recaps in there. Top Chef is coming up soon. We're going to do Top Chef bonus episodes again this season, I think. There's so much on the horizon.

So many good things coming. Jersey, just getting started. Miami, not over yet. Potomac. reunion coming up. Oh, we are so, we are well and, well and truly blessed. And right now, I hope you enjoy this interview with Heather. Have you ever rearranged your furniture and discovered the carpet underneath looks brand new while the rest of it looks, well, not so new? It's time for a carpet upgrade. At the Home Depot, we have stylish choices at simple prices from all

the top brands. Best of all, we can install it for you, starting at only 49 cents per square foot. So all you have to do is pick your perfect floor. Start your carpet project today at the Home Depot. How doers get more done. Exclusions apply for licenses. See Home Depot.com slash license numbers. I am now happy to be joined by a returning guest to the podcast, but no, she's not just a housewife. She is also a published author.

Please welcome back. Heather Gaye. Hi, everybody. Thanks for having me. I'm here. I'm like thrilled to be a repeat offender on Mention at all. Yeah, last time we had you on, it was a couple months ago. We were in the thick of season three.

Now we are, we are, you know, done with the season. The book is out. How are we feeling about the book? I'm happy for you. Thank you. That means a lot. I'm feeling very proud of the book, you know, very excited to kind of reveal another side of myself to really have a project that's, that you feel kind of in control of the narrative,

you know? you feel like I have always wanted to be a writer. I always felt like I was a writer. I majored in humanities. But nobody was going to give Heather Gay, lowercase H. Housewife, a book deal, you know. And the show gave me the opportunity to write a book. And it has been the most like cathartic, emotional thing I've ever done, but also possibly outside of like surviving my childhood divorce and motherhood, the thing I'm proud is

You know, I'm proud of a lot of things in my life, but I'm really proud to have finally put my story to paper. Not only so, like, I can respect it, but so that other people can, you know, really how I felt and who I am. Yeah. I think when somebody who's on a show like Housewives comes out with a book, there's always the question of, is it going to be just Housewives Tell All? Is it going to be some kind of advice book, self-help? or in your case you really lean into the memoir side of it. You have a very, you know, I think interesting story.

And Housewives is definitely an aspect of it. And I think that's a really interesting part of the book. But you focus more on how you got to where you are. And I'm curious how you kind of decided what shape the book would take. Well, I mean, I didn't really know what shape it would take. I wanted to have a little bit of something for everyone. but I mostly wanted to write it for myself. I wanted to write the story of like becoming a housewife, not being a housewife

because that's what I had experience in, you know. And I just really had all these memories of who I was and how I got there. And I wanted to honor that because once I got on housewives, you know, everything becomes kind of surreal, you know. And it really is a story of second chapters and second chances. And it's in many ways, rags to riches, you know, I was someone that grew up hoping only to have a house and a little plot of land somewhere to raise a family. Like that's as big as my expectations of my life got.

But my dreams were, of course, much, much bigger. And now it's a chance to kind of honor that little girl that gave up on everything. And then got a second chance, you know, in her 40s to really live an authentic life, a life that she was defined. I mean, I'm starting to define it for myself, you know, barely. it's clear in the book that at every stage in your life, you know, when you were a kid, when you were a young adult, a missionary, when you were in your marriage, that you were always kind of bumping up against this ceiling, this hard ceiling of what was the expectation, what was what you were supposed to be doing. And it feels like through, obviously through, you know, your own journey as a person, but then also through finding this kind of, you know, of outlet with the show, you really were able to finally break through that ceiling that you kind of had been pushing against for, like you said, like 40 years. Totally. It was like, I think, you know, a lot of times we're born with ambition and we want to like do better or

improve our life or improve our situation. And I kind of was born into a situation that seemed to work perfectly, you know. This seemed to be the formula for a perfect family, for a happy childhood, for good, you know, career for happiness. This was the plan of happiness. And so my parents were living it. And my family was living it. And it was working. And all of my immediate circle was living it.

And I didn't see divorce or poverty or despair or addiction. And so why would I aspire for more, even if in my heart, I wanted to be something more or try something different or I felt like this wasn't authentic to me. When you were given this formula that works, you really have to have a lot of. of gumption to try something different, you know? So I just fell in line. And then what I thought was the worst thing that could ever happen to me was getting divorced and the breakup of my family, ended up being the thing that really pushed me out of that containment of every, the formula working. And it, my life imploded. And so what I had always hoped for was absolutely no longer

attainable. And so I didn't even, and I felt like my life was over, you know. It's too late now to find love and start a family with and grow old with the, you know what I mean? It's too late now to do it the right way. So you've just got to like finish what you started miserably. I hadn't realized even there was, it almost seemed like it was too late when you decided to go on a mission because it was like, oh, well, you know, I'm, you know, X age and I'm not about to get married. So I guess this is what I'll do instead, like that you sort of start to feel that pressure.

are so so young when you're in that society. I felt that pressure graduating from high school. You know, I felt that pressure to attend college. Every decision in my life was informed with the goal to be good potential wife and mother. Every single choice. And any choice that bumped up against that meant a little part of me had to die inside, you know, because that wasn't an option. Yeah, I liked reading about.

about, obviously on the show, we see that you have Beauty Lab, you know, it's a Heather Gay Businesswoman. But I feel like the book really gives you a sense of that you've had that spirit about you for your entire life back to when you're in college and you're making these earrings and selling them. And we also read about your being a piano player as a kid. Obviously, you spoke French when you were doing your mission there. You did photography and graphic design, all of these other things that it's like, did you know, did you have a feeling when you started writing the book that there were all of these sides of yourself that you hadn't been able to share? Or was that kind of a discovery process of like, oh yeah, I should talk about taking photos. I should talk about,

you know, selling earrings, like those kind of things. It was a process, you know, I started to write my story down just kind of like A to B to C to Z. And I started to see all these connections. and I started to kind of like recognize the patterns in my life that I always was an entrepreneur. You know, I was doing, I couldn't just have something for the sake of having that. You know, I wanted to turn it into a business venture to a, you know, even like in high school, I didn't want to just write an essay. I wanted to enter it into speech contest, you know, and win cash. Like, I just think I never acknowledged that entrepreneurial spirit inside me because it was like acknowledging a chin hair or something.

It wasn't something that was attractive. It wasn't something that was going to get me any currency in my community. If anything, it was going to make me more distance from my friends, from my family and from my ultimate goal, which needed to be a stay-at-home, loving, devoted mother, which I wanted to be. And I didn't want to have other wants and desires to pull me from these things. Like, I didn't want to know I was good at anything else because that kind of angst is really hard to live with, you know? Mm-hmm. Girl, winter is so last season.

And now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs. You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders. That perfect hang on the patio sundress. Those sandals you can wear all day and all night. And you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done hoping it looks anything like the picture when you tear up on that envelope? It's time for a little in-person spring treat.

It's time for a trip to Ross. Work your magic. I was struck by how much you really didn't hold back talking about your marriage and, you know, the separation and all of the stuff that went into that. Was that a tough decision to kind of decide how much of that to put into it and how open to be about that? It really was because I'm generally unfiltered, but I wanted to really be sure to tell my story from my perspective and not to appropriate anyone else's experience or anyone else's, you know, story. but that's difficult when you're married and you're discussing the breakup of that marriage and it's two people. So I tried to just be as unfiltered as possible was still respecting his story and his experience and the legacy that I was leaving for my daughters. This is their dad. They have so many of his

wonderful, wonderful qualities, the qualities that he had that made me fall in love with him, you know. And I didn't want to disrespect, you know, the girl that wanted this marriage to last forever, not necessarily because he was the love of my life, but because that was the fairy tale and I wanted to make it come true. Yeah, like meeting the idea of going back to who you were at the time and putting yourself in that mindset of, you know, wanting the best, making the best decision that you could at the time versus the hindsight that you have now where you're like,

oh, well, like she was, you know, young and stupid and making bad decisions. It's like kind of giving yourself that grace to be like, well, that was what I was supposed to want. Yeah, there's a lot of play on the word bad, you know, like a bad daughter, bad missionary, you know, bad Mormon. And the truth is, like, I thought that anything that took me away from this cookie cutter life was bad, but it's actually who I authentically was. And I am trying by writing this book to break away a little bit from the shame of that,

you know, and to weaponize that word to mean like, I'm also a badass, you know? like we've survived, you know, we've did this. This is a story for anyone that feels like they couldn't, you know, be who they authentically were without disrupting everything around them. You were talking about kind of the legacy you're leaving for your daughters. I'm curious, with so much of the stuff in the book and about your marriage, they were quite young when that was happening. But now they're old enough to kind of understand the different complicated dynamics. has there been stuff that you felt like you needed to be clear with them either before the book or before talking about it on the show to be like, okay, this stuff happened.

It's going to be talked about. I want you to be like good with it. Yeah. I absolutely read sections of the book to them and we would laugh and cry and I would read anything about them. And you notice I don't talk a lot about them as individuals. like and I let because for the same reason that like they know this is my story and while they may be the most important part of my story and the whole reason I wrote the story and the reason I'm still

here alive today you know I want them to feel not limited by my words or my history and also not limited by the experiences that they had like I was so scared getting divorced and coming from a broken home would ruin them forever and they want me to know that they're okay and that they love the book and they support the story, but it's in a way that they can be proud of, you know? You've talked about how it's, you know, kind of scary, the idea of people in your family and in your life reading the book and seeing kind of how open you are about things. Has anyone kind of yet had a chance to read it and get feedback like that? Like, I'm curious kind of how you're going about that. Well, my brother in Switzerland, who was also on the show in season two,

I think, season one or season two, he read it and he loved it. And my sister-in-law did too. And they said that it was a beautiful tribute to our family and a moving memoir of how I became a housewife. And he was really, really supportive. The other members of my family, we don't discuss it. And I don't know if they'll purchase it. And I don't know if they'll read it. It's just not a topic of conversation.

It's the elephant in the room that no one mentions. the book, the show, the divorce. We don't talk about it. Yeah, it's interesting because at the reunion, you talked about how kind of going on the show in the first place was like ripping that Band-Aid off. And it does feel like in a way, obviously it's you telling your story versus being on a show like this, but it is kind of a continuation of the same journey of your

identity. Yeah. You know, I got a second chance. I'm like the luckiest girl in the world, you know? And I just feel like it would be a disservice to everyone else that didn't get this chance to not, you know, champion people everywhere that have given up on themselves. Yeah. You also mentioned at the reunion some situation, like a legal situation that's going on with the church. Can you say anything else about that?

Yeah, no, absolutely. The Church of Jesus Christ, a lot of these saints is suing me for my use of the term bad. Mormon. And they basically said, we hate the word, but we don't want anyone else to make money off of it. So we're in active litigation right now in the discovery phase. We're like, they're worried about consumer confusion. Like people, good Mormons may go pick this book up and be horrified by what they read. And so they don't want this book associated with their faith because it is so revealing and it is so telling. You know, this is an insider's peak. behind the veil and nobody's really done it with this type of visibility, you know, housewives

is far reaching. Yeah, it's, that's so interesting because when I heard you say that on the reunion, I had already read most or all of the book. And so I was kind of thinking like, okay, like I could see them having an issue with this or this, but the fact that it's just the whole kind of identity of bad Mormon, because I actually liked you at the very beginning of the book, you have kind of a note about the use of the. word Mormon itself, that it's this kind of loaded thing and the church has changed its position on that, but you're like, I'm just, I'm using it for my experience because that's just the true to you. Yeah, it's, I mean, the word is reflective of my experience and that's how, the way I

described it. So for the church to reject it, but then to sue me over it, I think it has much more to do with what's in the book. And the, the things that I reveal in the book are very, very secret. No one speaks about them, not even Mormons, to one another. So I put pen to paper what my best friends and I have never openly discussed, but yet we have performed these rituals over and over and over and over with our families, but we've never looked eye to eye and discussed them outside of that room in the temple. Yeah, I'm curious. The stuff about the temple, obviously as an outsider to that community,

it was interesting to me because it's new. I did watch, I watched Big Love on HBO. and there was one episode where they like showed what it looks like at the temple. So I was like, okay, that sounds familiar. Yes. But I'm curious, like, was that, did you get pushback from like your editor, your publisher, anybody on actually including that stuff that you said is so unspoken? No, they, I think they wanted more, you know.

I think my editor, Natasha, was pretty fascinated with that whole aspect of it. But I, there's so much. And it was so hard to even get the words because, you know, we have been schooled that if we ever utter these outside of this room in the temple, that there are death penalties that I talk about in the book too, you know, and these penalties are horrific. So it's like you can't really just take it lightly. And the only pushback I got was from my inner voice saying, you're going to burn in hell. You know, you're going to burn in hell. Yeah, like there's a certain internal thing where it's like if you've gotten to. a certain point in your journey away from that life that you led, you finally can be open with yourself about it. And it's like, it's only secret because somebody else told me that I wasn't supposed to say it. It's not, it's not going to hurt anyone in a, you know, material way to talk about it.

Yeah. And in a way, we're at the age of transparency. You know, there's no more hiding behind corporate policies and sacred rituals, you know, like this is stuff that is oppressive. It is destructive. It is homophobic. It is misogynistic. And because someone says it's sacred, it's not sacred to me. It's destructive to me. And I want to be able to talk about it. And that's scary to say. And I know there will be fallout because of what I'm revealing. But there's just words that are secret to a bunch of old white men who have said we can never talk about it. All new drinks are now at McDonald's. With refreshers like, the strawberry watermelon refresher,

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Red Bull Summer All Day Play. Red Bull gives you wings. Visit redbull.com slash bright summer ahead to learn more. See you this summer. I also watching the reunion, the whole black eye storyline has become just this giant ball of conversation. and obviously people have had strong reactions to it. But watching it with the context of having read the book, at the reunion when you were talking about feeling the shame around, you know, blacking out and not knowing what happened to you, I was able to kind of connect the dots between that and a sort of through line in the book, which is that you were in this world where you were supposed to feel shame about so many things. and you weren't supposed to be acting out or doing anything that wasn't kind of right in line. Not to mention also when you had the like Bell's palsy for a while when you were like that kind of was a direct.

I'm like, okay, there's like something with the face. Like you kind of had this. Yeah. It's interesting to me that I think the book, even though it had nothing to do with the situation itself, kind of informed how I was watching your reaction to it. I love that because, you know, obviously I don't control the editing and there was so much going on behind the scenes with the black eye that it was, it was frustrating to me to see it explained as my fault. You know, I could have been drugged. I could have been punished. I don't know.

You know, I blacked out. And I didn't know how to process that because the shame was so deep. And I hope that people will see that like if they didn't recognize me in season three, they will recognize how I got there. season three by reading the book. And I love that you had that same insight because I think it's pretty consistent, you know, and that's the one thing that was missing from season three is some consistency in anything. Do you feel like this season, the situations like with the black guy, with stuff with Whitney, with Jen, do you feel like you handled things differently than you did in past seasons?

Or was it just a different set of situations that maybe you struggled with a little bit more. I think it was a combination of being thrown into some pretty deep waters pretty quickly. And who I was in the way I navigated my life on Housewives was it was no longer a viable option just to show up and have a good time and just kind of observe. You know, I was in it. And I was in it with some huge, huge issues that I wasn't prepared to deal with. All of this abuse that Whitney had never mentioned before and all of a sudden was the topic of conversation. you know, Jen's arrest, like, and her pending sentence and just the drama of it all, I didn't really have the tools to navigate it. And who I was just didn't work. Like,

if I don't want to talk about the black eye and make light of it or just have them tell me what happened would be a lot simpler solution since I'm on a show that's being recorded, but instead it just became me making light of really serious issues and not taking things seriously. And that's not how I felt, you know. I am an ad, for victims of crime. I'm an advocate for victims of a viz. You know, the circumstances on the show made made that look differently. But why would I ever be anything but? Yeah. I was watching the reunion. I will say I was half expecting kind of you and Whitney to get to a point where it was like, let's put everything behind us. You know, I was expect, you know, you're going to be crying,

hugging, let's move on. Let's pretend this whole season never happened. We didn't get to that point. I'm wondering, my thought process is maybe because you've gone through so much in your personal life that, you know, is covered in the book, is it harder for you to kind of sweep things under the rug or just kind of move forward without a solid foundation there? Do you think? I think so. You know, it's pretty messy and I'm still kind of in the middle of all of it. But what the viewers are going to see is that Whitney and I had that moment. We had the sweep it all under the rug, forgive, hug, cry. And it happens on Ultimate Girls Trip. So Whitney and I had resolved. And then we had a lot of really horrible perpetuations of the same type of

betrayal. So we have done that cycle and you'll see a little bit of an Ultimate Girl's Trip. But watching the season play back was not great. I mean, I have a lot more clarity in my life now about the relationships I want to have. And I don't really see. a way for me to move forward with her, you know, at this time. Yeah, it's tough because everybody that's on a show like this, you have what happens when you're filming and then what happens when the show airs and, you know, you kind of dredge things up. But with you specifically, it's like your last season had aired and then you immediately started

filming and then you did girls trip with Whitney and then your BravoCon panel was a whole thing in and of itself. And then, you know, there's other no way. always happening and then the season is premiering and it really has been, you know, a year plus at this point where there was no real breather. There was no real break time. So I do understand in that sense that it's like sometimes you just need, you know, four months or something to really go do what you have to do and then come back. And I think an added layer to that breaking all fourth wall is that, you know, when someone is willing to change and betray you only for television and it's not really real,

and they say, well, it's just for TV. So just go with it. You can no longer be in a relationship with that person while you're in that context of on TV. So as long as I'm on TV with her, I'm not really sure how to process anything because none of it is authentic. And that's the situation. Like if you'll see on girls trip, like she takes an opportunity to really attack, the book, my story, my experience, things that she has been such an advocate for herself for. Like, this is my voice, my story.

But then she absolutely attempts to eradicate mine. And so there are things that are really irreparable and hard to recover from. And as long as we're still in this context of it being just for TV, I'm not interested in relationships on or off camera that are just for TV. Yeah. In the parts of the book where you do get into the show, I actually, so you talk a lot about sort of the development process and the casting process because it was a brand new show. It wasn't originally always going to be housewives. It was, you know, shopped around. You did the sizzle. You talk about kind of how each of the cast members came into the picture, but there's no like, you're never just rehashing drama from the show.

So there's no, there's really no point in the book where any of your castmates would read it and be. like, well, I didn't like what she said about me. And I thought that was, you know, it worked in that way that it's like, it's not about that. Yeah. You know, I was tempted to rewrite history and rewrite the perspective. You're like, I have so many pages. I have notes. I have notes. And, you know, I could have shown myself as more savvy and not so easily duped and easily dazzled by all of it. But I wanted the reader to experience what it felt like to be swept up into this life from a life I'd never known. And, you know, I emphatically endorsed all these women for so many reasons. But the number one reason is because I myself was a fan of reality television. You know, like I, they asked me in the casting process, who would you want to watch on TV?

And I thought about, and I gave them all my friends, because the truth is I'd want to watch all of them. But there's a certain formula, I think, that we talk about in the book. And I hope people that are fascinated with the casting process of Housewives will see how it worked, because I really reveal a lot, you know. Yeah. That to me is what I'm more interested to hear about when I pick up a book like this. It's like, okay, like, you know, if you read Ramona's book and she's like, well, you know, Luann was a nightmare. It's like, okay, like, cool. But, you know, the kind of mechanics of getting a show like this on its feet are so interesting.

And I mean, just from reading it, it sounds like that was a process that took several months. Like you were, it was not like you did two interviews. and then there was a show. No, I mean, it was, we were at a standstill, and I write about that tension, you know, like you go through this whole process and then it just goes dark, you know. And I hope the readers feel that process, you know, and then you, then that one person comes in, you know, that changes the dynamic for everybody. And that's, I think that there's something beautiful and organic about shows that are built

around a little, you know, insular world of mutual friends. Mm-hmm. Well, we're at this kind of crossroads. The season is ending. Your book is coming out that you've been working on for a long time. Where do you kind of see this year unfolding for you now that the book is out? The show is maybe, you know, in a little bit of a lull for a minute. I know you have girls' trip coming up.

Where do you kind of want to devote your energy this year? That's such a great question. I don't have any energy left. I want to curl up in a ball. I think just to say it out loud, I think there's going to be a lot of fallout from the book. I think I live in a very Mormon community. I live in a very Mormon family.

And what I felt was fallout before might increase exponentially. And that is something I'm bracing myself for and my children for. You know, they get bullied and harassed. And I think that that might increase. So I'm just trying to make sure that my inner circle is fortified. And I think that you can expect. for me a lot of messy self-discovery still. I feel like I'm an adolescent in this second chapter. So come what may, I'm just going to try to figure it out. And I'm not going to try to not feel

so much shame while I'm doing it. Well, you know, take care of yourself. It's been a it's been a whirlwind couple of years here. It has been. Nothing. You know, I'm grateful for all of it. The ups and downs. It's what it's about, you know. Totally. Well, everybody go check out Badmore. And it's it's on sale now wherever wherever you get your books. Is that the right way to say it? It's on sale. All your local booksellers, all the big ones, all the small ones. And I think the people will love it.

I hope they all read it. And there's a lot of bad Mormons out there, you know. Right. You've got you've got them in your corner at the very least. For sure, for sure. Thank you so much, Heather. Congrats on the book. Thanks.

I appreciate it, babe. Thanks so much to Heather for sitting down to talk with me. You can get her book, Bad Mormon, right now. wherever you get your books. Thank you so much for listening. As always, don't forget to rate, review and follow the show so you never miss an episode. Like I said, more great guests coming up this week, next week, forever and forever and beyond into the future. So make sure you are following, subscribed, whatever they call it now, so you don't miss anything. You can follow us on Instagram at Bravo by Betches. You can follow me at Dylan Hafer. And until next time, be cool. Don't be all like

uncool. Mention It All is produced by Dylan Hafer, Sean Kilby, Jorge Morales Pico and Rebecca Sousmaqat. Editing by Jorge Morales Pico. Social media by Dylan Hafer. Guest booking by Dylan Hafer and Ali Friedlander. Be sure to follow at Bravo by Betches on Instagram and Twitter. Pay off your home, travel for life. Drive a Ferrari.

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