Mention It All - Without A Fourth Wall, What’s The Next Housewives Frontier? Ft. Evan Ross Katz

Episode Date: February 5, 2025

There’s a lot going on in pop culture right now, so it’s the perfect time for a chat with culture connoisseur Evan Ross Katz. He and Dylan start with a Traitors breakdown, which leads to a conversation about the importance of casting characters on reality TV. Evan weighs in on where some of our most iconic franchises are headed, from RHONY to RHOC, and sets expectations for the newly retooled Atlanta. Later, he shares his recommendation for Bravo fans interested in watching Survivor for the first time. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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See Store Online for details. Betches Media presents Ha ha laugh funny Mention It All A Bravo by Betches podcast We don't say that but now we said it With me, Dylan Hafer Who's on check me, though

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Mention at All podcast I am so excited to be joined today by a friend of mine, he's an author, a podcaster and a driving force in pop culture fandom and conversation.

Evan Ross Katz, hello. Hi, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to have you here. I feel like we are in the middle of so many things right now. It's award season. Traders is back. White Lotus is returning next month. I know that that is a major thing for you and for all of us. Four Housewives franchises have been airing the last couple months. And you're kind of in the business of keeping up with all of it. How have you been

doing lately? I've been doing well. Now that we came out of that four Housewives on at once, and what are we down to now? Like, I think we're going to get down to one pretty soon. Yeah, as of this week, Salt Lake City in New York are wrapping up, and then Potomac won't be far behind. But then Atlanta will come. But even still, I think it's quieting down. But then it's kind of like, yeah, as one thing. Because then, as you mentioned, it's like traitors and then White Lotus. I'm a big survivor person.

Survivor begins in just a few weeks. So I'm at the end of the day thankful because I feel like there was a period last year, like, especially in Q3, when television seemed to just like dry up. but I think that was the direct result of the writer's strike. So understandably so. But so I am grateful to have lots of things to be watching and therefore talking about. It's crazy because, like, I mean, on this podcast, we almost exclusively talk about Bravo. So when there's like not much housewives happening or other shows are kind of like in, you know, pause, purgatory hell or whatever, I'm like, okay, so. So this old season was really, was really cute.

We could talk about that. Well, fortunately, I feel like enough of the Bravo ladies are doing things or getting into some kind of mess on the side where like there's always that ecosystem is pervasive no matter what. But yeah, it can be difficult sometimes. It's often that thing where it's like there's either not enough or too much. It's like there's never that sweet spot. But again, we're not complaining because ultimately we love the girls. Yeah, we do love the girls. I think Traders has been something. It's been really fun in the last few years to have kind of this. thing every year that a handful of them are participating in. And this season maybe hasn't gone so well for the Housewives on Traders. It's true, but can I tell you, it's so fun watching Traders because I am a diehard survivor fan. I feel like the Venn diagram between Survivor and Housewives is small. And so it's really funny watching Bravo fans meeting Survivor players. And I think there's a level of like, there's a territory nature that I think we all feel around

our, whichever, you know, whether we're coming into this as, you know, fans of Big Brother or Housewives or what have you. And so it's funny watching these like fan bases collide. And in some ways really cause a lot of distress for one another because I think there's just a fundamental difference between reality competition and reality. And for those unfamiliar with the other one, there's a learning curve of like how these shows function. And Traders is kind of in this funny spot because it's ultimately a reality competition show, a kin to Survivor and Big Brother. And yet, by nature of design with things like the roundtable and even just like the breakfast in the morning, it's kind of more within the landscape of a

prototypical reality show. So I really enjoy like traders as a, as a fan of all, many of the genres that are featured in it. So I grew up watching Survivor and then I lapsed for a while and actually just this past season, 47, I got back into it. So I like, I love Survivor. I'm a survivor supporter, I do feel like on traders, sometimes the survivor players are a little bit, they get under my skin a little bit. And the big brother, I just, I can't do it. It's like, I don't want to hear about how this person is like a comp beast. Like that does absolutely nothing for me. And so I feel like the CBS people loom a little too large on on traders for my liking. I understand that. I feel like the best offerings that we've brought, we being Survivor, so far,

have been Parvety and Sandra. I feel like they really hit that sweet spot because in many senses, they kind of fit within the Bravo ilk. But yeah, I think this season, you either have players like Jeremy and Tony who just don't really jump off the page in a necessary way,

or you have people like Rob, for instance, who are like such gamers that if you're not into that gameplay aspect of what they bring to the show, it kind of feels, it can be very off-putting. I still think about last season when Sandra was using the pool balls to explain like the high level strategy of the season. Yeah, it's funny you say that because like when I think about last season,

obviously like there's a couple of, you know, moments that stay burned in my brain. Obviously, Fadra with the sweet baby, what is it, sweet baby I can sue or whatever. Yeah. Oh, Lord, baby Jesus. Oh, Lord Jesus. Yeah. So that obviously, but image wise for me, it's obviously MJ walking in and discovering everyone's talking about her, obviously.

Also, that pool table moment you mentioned, I just, I'm always thinking about that. In this week's episode, there's a shot of like the pool table. And I was like, wait a minute, where's Sandra? Like, we need her. One thing that I love about traders is that some people take it so seriously. And like watching Dorinda on Jimmy Fallon talk about how she read The Art of War and was studying, like, you know, these like ancient historical texts of like strategy to go on this show. it's like that's what it is this like high camp performance of strategy that is just like so delicious yeah like i struggle with that because again i'm such a fan of reality competition

and i love like the airtight nature of survivor in terms of like there is there are ways to play survivor to win and with traders it's ultimately so arbitrary who is murdered and who is banished so i love people like daryinda that read the art of war because i like that level of as you say campiness that's that's brought to the show. At the same time, it's frustrating for me as a fan wishing that there was actual strategy that could be implemented to move through this game as a faithful. And that's my one like remaining frustration with traders by design and something I hope that they will fix. But yeah, ultimately like, I think you have to remove a part of like your critical brain in order to watch the show and enjoy it. And I struggle with that. But I'm kind of

just trying to submit. Yeah. It's like, two different roundtables this season. A vote has been wasted on Tom Sandoval because Dolores and Chrisel just don't like him. And I'm like, okay. I mean, I can appreciate the moment, but also like, ladies, come on. We have a, we have a goal to get to. Right. Exactly. So, yeah, I'm settling into the traders is what it is. And it's like either, you know, you can set sail with the boat or stay on the dock. And so I think I'm getting on the boat. As long as they keep doing a good job with the casting, I think that this show kind of can, you know, they've renewed it for like two. more seasons already. And I'm like, yeah, as long as

they don't get lazy with the casting, I think that I think that we'll be okay. Totally. So good, so good. Everything you want for summer is at Nordstrom rack stores now and up to 60% off. Stock up and save on the brands you love like Vince, Sam Edelman,

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Sprite is registered, trademark of the Coca-Cola company. I'm wondering you mentioned the images burned in your brain, and this is something that you do every year on your Instagram, the 25 images of the year. And last year, there were a few Bravo representations. Like you mentioned MJ. MJ made it on there. Meredith Marks in the wind of Bermuda and also derit lighting her cigarette in the car, which is just like an immediate ad to the canon. What is your process like? I imagine that for 2025 you've probably already started stashing away some images.

Yeah, I feel like I definitely, Beyonce, finding out that she won country album at the Grammys felt immediate. So I keep like a running dock all year. And the nice thing is people will also send me things as they see them. I like to cast as wide a net as possible. So like, for instance, in the case of Bravo,

there's a lot of contenders. You know, even thinking about this year so far, for instance, you know, you have the Meredith waking up at breakfast. on vacation with her face mask, like, half covering her. Was it a stye that she had? It was a, she scraped her retina or? Of course, naturally, yes.

That's an instance where I'm like, okay, this goes in the folder. But then at the end, you kind of have to say, this isn't, like, if I was doing one exclusively Bravo, which would be pretty, which would be quite easy to do, then there are certain things that would move through, but I sort of have to then go and say, you know, I, for instance, I knew like I wanted Kamala representation. I knew I wanted Bravo. So, yeah, I'm just keeping a running list all throughout the year. And then I have like a group chat with some of my closest friends where we kind of do something akin to like a March Madness bracket.

And we kind of say like, okay, we love this image, but does this image represent the year? And then also there are some instances in which it's like, it can't be a meme, right? It can't be something that requires text or movement in order to land. So that's another thing that kind of knocks some moments out. For instance, Kamala, the coconut tree is a great example of like, that's an audio cue, right? Like the image of Kamala saying that is not burned in the brain, it's the quote. So, you know, the longer I've done it, the more seriously I take it and the more I like, you know, throughout the year. I'm like really keeping meticulous notes and everything.

But I kind of love, that's what kind of my favorite thing to do is sort of take something really arbitrary and take it really seriously. Yeah, I was just going to say, I feel like that's kind of like, I feel like that's sort of like the niche that you've built on your, on your social and your, you know, everything that you're doing is like you take these sort of like fan things or, you know, little passions and it's like they become like the artifact. Like it's the art. Like you're, it's not just like, oh yeah, this like dumb thing happened on Housewives. It's like, what is the cultural significance of this moment? Totally. And as you know very well, like as a fan of Bravo, and with this podcast and everything, you know it's like fan communities love fanning the flames. So it's really fun when you discover these moments and you quickly realize, I'm not alone. Other people saw this too, and other people want to commentate on this.

And in a world where, you know, today's world where monoculture is quite slim, I actually think these pockets of the seemingly niche end up being some of the most interesting aspects of culture. And in many instances, rise up and kind of become you know, somewhat monoculture. The example that comes to mind for me is holding space, which is like such a strange and bizarre moment, but really like got lifted up to become a full-blown, like, cultural moment

off of something that was like, you know, you kind of blink and you miss it. But these moments and when they're discussed and dissected enough can kind of become something. Yeah. Holding space is a great example because like even something, I feel like 10 years ago, people weren't thinking about like, oh, the press tour. for this movie is giving us X, Y, and Z. It was like, okay,

maybe there would be, you know, a red carpet look that got a lot of attention or there would be an interview that went, you know, viral when it was like the cover of a magazine. But like for something that's like, you know, a junket hit that could have just like gotten 12 page views to become

something that is being like recreated. You know, Taylor Swift is doing it at the Grammys in the background with Cynthia Arrivo. It's like, yeah, there is that kind of like online engine of people really, I think, think like creating culture in real time. Yeah. And like you said, it's like I know I wasn't even aware of press tour as like, you know,

I knew as a journalist that I would interview talent when they were doing press, but I didn't realize the mechanism of touring and how much they were having to do and how many, how many versions of me they were having to talk to. And I think now we collectively have more of an understanding of the press tour as an as like its own juggernaut. And I feel like the Madam Web Press Tour is a great example of, like, the Press Tour had a life force that actually, like, I guess, I guess this is the intent, right? But, like, fuel the movie. And I feel like more people saw the Madam Web Press Tour than saw the movie. So in that instance, maybe not so successful in its efforts, question mark,

because it ultimately did drive a lot of conversation. I think I'm always sort of wondering, like what is the return on investment when it comes to conversation from these studios perspective, right? Because at the end of the day, they just care about you seeing the work. The press story doesn't really matter unless it ultimately fuels the work. But I think in the case of like wicked, it did fuel the work. Yeah. I think also like with, to bring it back to Bravo a little bit, like, I think with there used to be such a focus on ratings for shows and that it was like the next day ratings would come out. And it was like, wow, New Jersey is really doing bad. this season. This is their demo is the lowest it's been all season and it you know it this show is

outperforming whatever and I feel like now with everything streaming on peacock and all of the social media and all of the sort of like infrastructure around it it's like it's so much more of a holistic thing of like how is this show fitting into the landscape and what is the impact that it's having versus just like how many people turned on their cable channel at 9 p.m. on a to sit down and watch this episode. That's so true. I mean, I think about that from the perspective, again, as a Survivor fan, Survivor gets around at least five times the audience of most Bravo shows, and yet, because of the visibility through internet culture of someone like Lisa Barlow, she's able to do deals

with Wendy's and Taco Bell, these myriad deals that Survivor players, again, who have five times the audience eyeballs on them are not able to get. So yeah, the currency in 2025 is so interesting. And I think that that's one thing Bravo's consistently been so good at throughout time is creating honest to goodness stars and lots of them. And then when one walks, they're able to create new ones. Ready to soundtrack your summer? With Red Bull Summer All Day Play, you choose a playlist that fits your summer vibe the best. Are you a festival fanatic, a deep end DJ, a road dog, or a trail mixer. Just add a song to your chosen playlist

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Steamy romances, irresistible love stories, and the book to screen favorites you've already read twice. Off campus, Every year after, the love hypothesis, Sterling Point, and more. Slow burns, second chances, chemistry you can feel through the screen. Your next obsession is waiting. Watch only on Prime. Yeah, Angie Kay is such an interesting example of somebody who, like, the first time that she

popped up on this show, she was like a total afterthought. People really didn't warm to her right away. And then, like, at some point last season, it just clicked. and now she's like one of the most popular people on the network. It's really wild. It does make you wonder about which one-season housewives, if they were given more times a cook, could have really developed. I mean, I always kind of think about Jules from season eight,

A Real Housewives of New York, as being an example of someone that like I just don't think had enough time. But it does make you wonder, it's like which one-offs or, you know, friend-dubs could have come on and made higher impact had they just been given the time and space. Yeah, I was kind of thinking about that with Real Housewives of Miami, which I'm, you know, like, anxiously awaiting a premiere date for this season where, like, that show had such a small reputation in sort of the Bravo sphere before it got rebooted. You know, there were people who watched it and loved it back in the early 2010s, but it had sort of fallen off the map in terms of like the canon, I think. And these last few seasons, like, reviving that show and bringing back some of the original. people and adding in new, like, it is like a completely different. It's a 180 in terms of where that show occupies in the, the Bravo kind of library. Yeah, totally. Wait, did you see that? Marcus Jordan was arrested. I did just see that. I was like, speaking of Miami. Well, it's funny because this

goes back to what we were saying at the top, which is like, even when there's not shows actively airing, you have like everything that the housewives are up to in their real life, but then you have like these tertiary characters like Marcus Jordan, who even when they're no longer on the show are forever a part of the Bravoverse, it makes me think about like anytime I see like a Catherine McPhee headline, I'm like, to me, Catherine McPhee is like in the bravoverse, right? So it's like there's just all of these extended characters. When, what's it called? When the Frazier reboot was canceled recently, I was like, that's housewives news. You know what I mean? Like, so we just, we remain so fed by this ecosystem. You're like, what does that mean for Camille Grammer's bottom line?

I hope she's doing well. I also, I was really interested to see last week the news that Gretchen Rossi is returning to Real Housewives of Orange County after many years away. Like, I mean, we just talked about Miami kind of coming back into the fold. Like, reviving old things is something that Bravo likes to do. But I'm curious how that's going to go. Yeah. I am too because, obviously, there have been instances where we get really excited about someone

coming back and they completely flounder. I'm trying to think. But then, you know, I guess the best example of coming back and really, you know, jumping off the page would be Bethany coming back with season seven of Roney. So I, but then like we've had seasons where Nini came back and completely floundered. So I think it's each instance is depending on the timing, obviously, how the cast has changed in the time that they've left. And then whether or not they sort of fit in with the way the show itself has changed.

because, you know, you look at Orange County Season 1 and Orange County today, they're two entirely different shows, not just from a cast perspective, even from a cinematography perspective. In general, Bravo shows are so much glossier today than they once were. I mean, I saw that latest The Real Housewives of Atlanta photo shoot, and I was like, compare that to like, you know, the Rony Season 1 photo shoot that they did in the meatpacking district outside in, like, the fur coats. I'm just like, it's just remarkable the fact that these shows have the same title,

but just like the DNA of them has changed so significantly. Yeah, watching the, watching the trailer for the new season of Atlanta, I talked about it a little bit, but it's like the, I don't know what was happening with the editing there. It's a little bit like, it doesn't feel like we're watching like a housewives narrative program in that trailer, but it is just interesting to see like sort of the way that they're packaging this product, that it's like, they're trying to do something with this. Like, anytime you're marketing something, like, there's an objective. And it almost feels like maybe that trailer isn't for people that have watched all 15 seasons, because we're already going to watch it. Totally. It feels like it's basically, it's trying to give the aesthetic

of, you know, a scripted television show in terms of the production quality, which is to say, like, yeah, if you're just a fan of watching, you know, affluent women and their drama, they're saying, like, this is not dissimilar from something like the White Lotus. I think that's the aesthetic that they're trying to give. And I'm curious to see, like, how many people, I guess, we're such institutional fans, you and I, and I imagine many of your listeners. It's always hard to imagine who are the newbies coming in, who is going to watch this new season of Atlanta having never before seen the show and be introduced to these characters. It's really hard to know. And it's something I'd be really really curious about. Yeah, it's interesting because like this season of Atlanta, you would think would be an

ideal time to try and bring in those kind of new audiences because they've, they've been on pause for a while, they've shaken up the cast, you know, they're, they're kind of going in a different direction. But you're right, it is kind of, when you think about it, you're like, okay, like, who is the stone that has been left unturned for Vial House of Atlanta? Like, this show occupied such a massive space in the culture 15 years ago and since then obviously has had, you know, this crazy roller coaster of a lifespan, but it's like there must be someone out there who's just waiting to welcome Portia Williams into their life. Absolutely. I think the, I would imagine the audience that their most courting is sort of like the fan who dropped off years ago. I feel like that's sort

of the who they want to go after. I say this not having any actual sense of it, but I feel like because, you know, you look at those numbers for Atlanta back in the day, which it's, to my mind, I don't know this as a fact, but I think Atlanta is the highest rated housewives or once was. Historically it was, yeah. Yeah, and I think like the ratings that they used to get at some point were just juggernaut. And obviously, that's fallen off, as is the case with many television shows. But I imagine there's a lot of latent fans from that period who, with the right tinkering,

could be welcomed back easily. So I feel like they're probably going less after those who have never seen the show and more after those who once watched the show fell off and are ripe for reintroduction. Right. Like maybe there's somebody who has been watching a lot of selling sunset the last few years or, you know, whatever other streaming show. And they kind of are like, okay, come back to Bravo. Exactly.

I do think a couple years ago when they made the transition to putting all of the episodes next day on Peacock, like, I think that was really like the power move. Because there were so many people that I would talk to where they're like, I don't have cable. I don't have the Bravo app sucks. Like, I'm just going to wait for it to show up on Hulu or whatever. And so you had people kind of on these really staggered timelines of, you know, I maybe have watched every season, but I always watch them like a year after they come out. And they've sort of like reintroduced that kind of culture of keeping up with things, which I think is so important. Yeah, especially with something like Housewives where there's so much conversation on social that you often feel. Whether or not you want to be a part of the conversation, even if that's not the case, you just want to be able to keep up with it. And so, yeah, if you wait even a week to watch, suddenly you're completely out of step. And I know there are a lot of people, I think even subconsciously who like just want to feel like they're a part of the conversation in some way. And so feel that this necessity to watch it when it drops and make sure that they know what's happening so that they can feel like they're a part of it.

How are you, as we round the bend on the end of this season of New York in Salt Lake City, obviously, I think a tale of two very different franchises. What is your kind of take on New York right now and where you see it headed? That's such an interesting thing to think about. I feel like they made a huge gamble, obviously, with, you know, changing up the cast. And I think what I'm fascinated with is, you know, the first, was sort of this grand experiment, right, to see would this work? I was, I guess in retrospect, I wish that they would have done something more akin to what they

did with Roney Season 5, which is to say that I think that they could have done more of a half in, like integrating half a new cast rather than, you know, this huge shakeup. I think the question now is knowing that this season was not very well received by fans and did not do very well ratings-wise, it's clear that they have to do something different, but the question becomes, do you throw out the baby with the bathwater again? Or do you try and do something more akin to Roney's season five and say, okay, do we keep half of this new cast and then do we bring in half newbies and or, or rather or, or do we say half this new cast stays and we reintegrate half of the old cast, which is I think what I think

many people were hoping they would have done between the last season and this one. and they didn't because I think that, you know, looking at the success of Derinda on traitors, knowing that Luan sort of remains in this Luannissance, and also thinking that, you know, you look at what happened with Mary Cosby, and you kind of wonder, like, could Ramona have a similar trajectory? Is there something that could make Ramona? And again, I don't think this is probably the case, but, like, is there something that Ramona could do that would curry more favor from fans?

Or do you look at, like, the sort of friend of a Vicky, on Orange County and say, is there a way to integrate these, quote, unquote, problematic housewives that doesn't frustrate fans the way that it did, you know, years ago? I also think the temperature in our country has changed such, where I think someone like Ramona would be more easily invited back on a show like this, more easily than she would have several years ago. So I think what I'd love to see is them finding a way to go half in with the current cast in half and with the old cast, but then the question becomes, like, who, who among them?

Yeah, and then kind of, like, also, there is this sort of strange relationship with reality and authenticity that, like, you want these shows to feel real, even if in your deepest lizard brain, you know that none of these women would spend time with each other. So, like, if you bring back people from the old show, how much can you really? sort of keep that construct of like a group of women in New York City versus like we're bringing back the OGs kind of wink wink. And I think like overall these shows have such a different relationship with the fourth wall and with the audience than they did several years ago where, you know, we're seeing conversations on Potomac this season about, you know, does Greg want to be

on the show? Does he, is this relationship going to be on the show? Bryn, it happened this season where she was accused of sleeping with someone to get on the show. And like conversations like that that five years ago, I think, would have either gotten edited out or sort of reframed in a way of like, he doesn't want to be, you know, in the group. Like, you know, we kind of, we can say the quiet part out loud a little bit with that right now. But then are they willing to sort of go, you know, fully there, like an ultimate girl's trip kind of thing where it was really, that was the first time that we had seen housewives,

talking about the show on the show. Yeah, and you just sort of wonder, because I agree with you, like the quiet part is now, you know, not only out loud, it's sort of like put through a megaphone. So you kind of wonder, like, what is the current quiet part? You know what I mean? Because are we at a place where there just no longer is a quiet part, question mark? Or is there a new quiet part? And if there is, what is the quiet part now?

Because, yeah, it's, if everything is out on the table, that's exciting to an extent, but you kind of need something to remain, you know, behind behind, behind the, the fourth wall in order to, in order to remain, to give, you know, to have it have some bones. Like, right? There has to be some sort of infrastructure. And so if everything's out there, I do wonder, like, how there has to be some progression in terms of how the stories get told. And yeah, now that we're in the sort of breaking the fourth wall era, because in the beginning,

it was like exciting, right? Like, oh, my God, they're breaking the fourth wall. Now that that's become somewhat status quo, how do we sort of, you know, get to that next evolution. Yeah, it's kind of crazy to think about now the like cultural reset of Denise Richards, Bravo, Bravo, fucking Bravo. Like that was, it felt like it felt like we were entering like a room that we had never been allowed to go in before. And now like, not that that wouldn't have been a moment now because it was just like funny and iconic, but the kind of mechanism of it wouldn't feel so groundbreaking. And I do, I do feel like last season of Salt Lake City, the kind of reality

von T's reveal did feel like sort of like a new way to do that where it's like, it's not just that there's, you know, somebody on the show who has receipts or whatever. It's that like the social media fan account is being pulled into it. And this is this like whole sphere. And we used to talk about the blogs and the streets and all of this. And now it's like, you know, a full account. And so, yeah, kind of like what is that like next frontier of, you know, where is the battle being fought, you know, in 2025? And I think that's an existential question that Housewives as a whole has been facing, but will more explicitly face because I think they, Bravo got really lucky with the success of Salt Lake City this season in terms of not sort of putting water on the fire that was kind of going on, in my opinion, because if you look at the kind of. you know, the state of New Jersey, the state of Atlanta, you know, prior to this trailer, the state of New York right now, Dubai, you know, being canceled.

Like, we're not in a great place when you zoom out in terms of the Housewives landscape. I think the success of Salt Lake sort of was, we were able to sort of kick that ball down the field a little bit longer. But my question becomes, I think there's a lot on Atlanta right now and whether or not this is a good season. Because if this season does flop, and even if it's good, if it flops among the chatter on social media because that really is a huge barometer. If Atlanta flops right now, then I do wonder sort of like where we go because as we were

just talking about, New York is sort of once again at a turning point in terms of how it moves forward. If New York were to come back again with this cast intact, I just can't imagine that they're going to have better results, even if they got a better season, just because they're not really a part of the cultural conversation right now in a way that Housewise needs to. be. And so again, like, if Atlanta doesn't have a stellar season, I wonder if there will be some sort of conversation around the state of Housewives as a genre. Obviously, I think Orange County being in a good place, again, like Salt Lake City, kind of, what do they say, the ships rise with the tide

or whatever? A rising tide lifts all boats, yeah. Yeah. And so I feel like, again, with Salt Lake and with Orange County, it sort of helps Housewives as a whole. But I sort of wonder about, you know, how Atlanta will go and what that will do overall for Housewives. Yeah, and I think that there is a season being good is not the same thing as people loving a season. And I think that that's what they really, you know, it's an intangible thing, but capturing that online conversation and getting people to really be a fan of the show again is something that they need.

I mean, whatever, BravoCon is going to sell out. They're going to, you know, they're going to have people at their events, whatever. but like that actual enthusiasm is so important and and I think that with Atlanta you know it's been a year and a half basically since we saw those women on TV and so that is it's a big question mark and even with um you know with shows that are in their natural life cycle seasons can really ebb and flow in terms of how enthusiastic people are and I think that's what you know vanderpump rules is like fully being rebooted and two years ago that show was at the highest point of its it's life cycle. And so there really is kind of, sometimes it's not always predictable kind of when you're at the end of the good times. Totally. And it also makes you wonder if you were one of the women on Atlanta this season, knowing that the show was not really, the last several seasons of the show were not, you know, favored by the fans. Do you go in with this sort of intentionality around having to make good television? And sometimes I think that works and sometimes it doesn't. I mean,

like in the case of Monica on Salt Lake City, I think it did work. Like she went in there wanting to make television and she did. But there have been other instances, not just with housewives, in general, where I feel like someone comes in and that attempt, the veneers are so obvious that it ends up sort of fucking up the attempt at reality. Yeah, I'm nervous for sort of the return of Fadra halfway through the season of Atlanta, that it's like that was the most clear. we got to do something quick.

Yeah. And we got to do something quick is not necessarily the best way to structure a television show. Totally. And also, like, as we've seen with, you know, bringing in Nini and Shiree several times, having them come back, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And so it's hard to know. It's not as easy as bring this person back and the fans will be happy. And then also, you never know too.

Fan sentiment is so hard to really judge as far as what. what that will do for the show because I think a lot of us, like, Gretchen is such a great example where like, we're, I saw a lot of people being like, oh, great, they're bringing back like this trumper. But it's like, part of me is like, I love to see a trumper come back on housewives and be eviscerated by, you know, a more liberal housewife if they exist in O.C., which I think Heather Dubrow, right? Yeah, yeah, they do. So like, yeah, I would love to see that go down. But I think we sort of struggle to know whether or not, I think this is not just with Bravo fans, but in general, whether or not we want unsavory people on television is something

I think we really struggle with because I think like in the case of Kelly Dodd, I think we, we collectively were pretty, you know, resolute on like, okay, that's not the kind of person that we want. But there have been some instances of like us or of people discovering certain Bravo Lebrides are Trumpers and then kind of just being like, well, we'll allow it. You know what I mean? Yeah, it's, I've always kind of felt like it's something where like I obviously, you know, I have my own political views, which are not a mystery. But like, I do think that like, I don't need to agree with everyone that I'm entertained by. But at the same time, like, I also don't, watching Ramona at Black Shabbat was like one of the most uncomfortable experiences of my life, not in a good way. And so there is kind of that like, again, I think it's a little. bit intangible that it's like, when do we stop having fun and start being uncomfortable? And like, sometimes you don't know that, unfortunately, until you're already filming the show,

and it's too late. Right. Like, I had that feeling when I turned on the Rony Reunion, knowing what was going to come Brin's way and being like, at what point, because obviously there's a part of you that, like, wants to watch someone get their comeuppance, right? Like, they've done something wrong. And this is, this is literally the arena for them to kind of get scolded, but then it almost, there were some instances when it, like, veered into that place for me where I was like, well, is this, like, is this fun to watch? Is it fun to watch anymore, knowing, you know, that, and also knowing that is the Rony reunion two parts or three? Two, just two. Two. Okay. Well, even after one, I was like, okay, there's more coming. And while people were

making perfectly valid points, I always sort of wonder, it's like, how important is it that we're having fun when we watch like awful things go down. And I feel like, you know, we as Bravo fans kind of always go back to scary island and are kind of like, well, I think we ultimately netted out by being like, this was such great television. And Kelly's kooky enough that even though she's clearly having some sort of mental breakdown, we, whether ethical or not, kind of allowed it. We were like, this was such good television.

But now I think we can kind of go back some times and wonder, yeah, but like, were we ethical in watching this person, clearly having a mental breakdown? And I got that a similar sort of, a similar question popped up for me in watching everything go down with Bryn to be like, this is, I don't know how much fun I'm having watching this. Yeah, I was thinking about that with Salt Lake because like with Mary's stuff with her son this season, that was so raw and so, you know, tough to watch and easily her season could have really just sort of turned into focusing on that understandably and she could have kind of I think shut down in in other situations and thankfully for us as viewers she still brought so much to the table even beyond those really emotional

important scenes with her son that like it kind of was remarkable the amount that she still gave us with all of that going on but like obviously that's a different situation it's not always going to be you know, you're not going to have the comedy sometimes to go along with that. Totally. I was just saying to the come through queen boys that I feel like Mary Cosby really needs to be studied, both in the context of Bravo, but even just in a bigger sense, as far as someone who was, you know, literally canceled by fans of the show and also people outside of it when they saw, you know, the things she had done and said

and in repeated offenses and was able to not only come back on the show, but become a fan favorite and then become someone who everyone is rooting for and whether it be everything with her son and the friendship with Angie Kay, it's like if you were to play back, if you were to do like a, you know, a fan cam of like Mary during her original run on the show and new era Mary, they're night and day. And I can't think of anyone who's been able to have that trajectory on television

in the way that Mary has. Yeah. And it does make me wonder if she continues. to stay on the show, can she keep that up? And at some point, somebody, if she has the fan favorite edit two seasons in a row, it's not going to be too long before somebody comes in there with a broom and tries to sweep out the skeletons from the closet again. Because you know that we didn't resolve the whole situation with the church and, you know, the stuff with her husband has been kind of on the back burner all season. That is going to come up. The longer she stays on the show, it's going to

come up again. So I think that's kind of the question there is like, is this sustainable? And is she going to know that she probably should not stay on the show for very much longer if she doesn't want to have those things come back up? It's interesting, though, because like if you were a housewife, I mean, I imagine there's a lot of like preparation that goes in ahead of filming around like who one wants to be, you know, aligned with going into the season and who one is willing to, you know, fire shots at. And I feel like when you see the fan sentiment around Mary right now, it's, would be hard to go into a season being like, even though it would be easy to do, it would be hard to go in with the intention of taking down Mary,

knowing that it's probably not going to go your way because people really are up on Mary right now. Like she's not sort of someone you want to go after in this current moment. Whereas when you go into like the New York reunion, Brin is someone that's easy to go after because I imagine those women knew that fans were not so hot on Brin going into this season. And so they obviously had the material with which to go after her, but that was an easy target, right? You're not going after a current fan favorite.

But with Mary, it's like, I don't know if you want to wait into those waters, knowing that Mary obviously, like many Housewives, has her Stan Army, but also just has a lot of compassion from even tertiary fans of the show who are like, wow, this woman is like, has really shown some resilience. Yeah, it feels like watching Beverly Hills this season, it feels like Kyle has sort of failed to read the tea leaves a little bit in terms of how people are going to view her conflict with Doreet and still sort of, you know, eight episodes into the season being like,

but what about what she did to me? And it's like, girl, but that's not really where the conversation is right now. Yeah. I will say, though, I was surprised after the cigarette moment from Doreet, I feel like the runway was really cleared for her to have like an ascendancy beyond just Beverly Hills and really become sort of like this. It was giving to me like first wives club in the sense of like she's, she got rid of the husband and like she's now going to come into her like truest self. And I don't think that's played out, both on the show, but also just culturally. I thought Dorit was primed for a bigger year. I thought she was going to like transcend housewives in the way that I think Mary has right now. And it hasn't happened for Dorete for some reason. Yeah, you're right.

That that cigarette moment went so big, so fast. Yeah. And then I do, I think Beverly Hills this season has suffered a little bit from the thing that it's suffered from in many seasons past, where there is sort of only one thing happening and every episode and every every person on the cast is just sort of continually commenting on the same thing that's happening. So I wonder if maybe it's just getting a little bit bogged down in the, you know, P.K. Texaser and all of that. Like, it doesn't feel like there's maybe a lot of juice under the surface there this season. Yeah. And it's so interesting because it's kind of like what you were saying with Vanderpump where it's like they just were coming off of like the biggest season they've ever had.

and how quickly the mighty fall. And I feel like with Beverly Hills in general, like people, when Beverly Hills is good, the fans are really loud about it. Like people are, I feel ultimately rooting for the success of Beverly Hills. And so to see so many fans turning on the show this season and vocally so is such a bummer.

And like, that's an example of like, I don't know how you retool Beverly Hills moving forward. I feel like also you would know better than I would, but I feel like besides Salt Lake and Miami, a lot of these shows are just so consistently changing up the castes season to season that I think part of the success from the

fan perspective of both Miami and Salt Lake has been like the dependability and not feeling like these shows need to constantly be turning over. They're just always adding new girls which again are usually really successful but I feel like part of also too

why long time fans of OG Rooney love OG Rooney was because of like the fact that we had these girlies through and through, you know, occasionally a Jules would show up, but there was a dependable cast. I think the last couple seasons of Orange County have sort of started to get to that place where it's like, okay, this cast works. Keep it mostly the same. If you want to add one person, that's fine. But like, let's just copy paste and get the cameras back up. Because once you

have something, it can, it doesn't always last. And so I think like that sort of rhythm is really important and Salt Lake City has been in a rhythm like no other show. I mean, they've done five seasons in five years, essentially all premiering at the same time of year. Like, nobody else is doing consistency like that right now, except, I mean, I guess like summer house, you could say, but they're at the summer house. So it just, it works itself out. But yeah, like that kind of, that rhythm, I think is maybe an underrated important factor that a lot of shows really struggle to stick with. Yeah. And I think of the case of like, so like there's just a watchability to a lot of these women that not every franchise possesses.

I think about like Meredith Marks is such a great example of like no matter what Meredith Marks is doing, I find it watchable. So like even just like Meredith preparing charcutory is going to be so fascinating. Whereas if you were to contrast that with like thinking about like New York, like Cy, right? I just don't think Sai has that watchability factor. and it's not a demerit to sigh as a human being. It's just when it comes to, like, jumping off the screen, I think, like, because, you know, Dan from Come Through Queen always refers to the women of Salt Lake City

like Looney Tunes characters, and I totally agree. And there is that component and therefore a watchability to the women of Salt Lake City across the board that the grounded nature of the New York women, I actually think works against them because it doesn't create this just inherent watchability that I think a lot of us crave. Yeah, I think, I would say Jessel is probably the only person on that show that I feel like has a little bit of that energy where it's like, I want to watch her just like, I don't know, clean the house or something.

Not that I think she does that for herself. But I, but yeah, like having those kind of like big characters is important. And obviously they're real people. Obviously they have lives off camera. But like characters are important to these shows. and going back to like early seasons Atlanta when you had like Chiray just, Chiray and Kim and Nini, like those were, those were characters. Those were, they felt like larger than life kind of jumping off the page.

And, and yeah, I think that's, it's not an easy thing to find casting these shows is, I think people don't realize how difficult it is to get right, but it's so important. Yeah, and I think you need, I think those characters also need to have like different frequencies. Because I think the great thing, like you brought up Choray. And I think something Sherey was so great at was she was able to be like the A character in the scene but could also drop back and be the B character. Because if, you know, when people remember,

a lot of like early Shiree was often being like Kim's like side piece, you know what I mean? But it worked, like Shire was able to like be that role. And then when it came time for Shire to like buck up, Shire was more than capable of it. And so I feel like she was that ultimate like perfect scene partner where she was able to be like the center of attention, but also demure a bit.

And I think that's another skill set that a lot of housewives are not able to achieve. I think Carol Radzwell is a great example of like, when she first came on the show, she was much more of a commentator and much more of, you know, a friend of in a sense. But then when like the time came for her to like take lead, she was able to. And so I think that that's a skill set that some of the best housewives possess that don't often get credit for it. But yeah, you kind of obviously like we want our nini's and our Bethany's and our big characters, but I also think equally important are your Meredith Marks type characters that

are able to kind of step back and still, you know, hold the center. I'm a fan of Gina Kirshin-Hider, and I feel like she kind of has that energy a little bit. She just makes me laugh. She's an interesting character to watch her journey, for sure. For sure. Okay, before we wrap up, I'm curious. You are obviously a huge Survivor fan. We've talked about it. I hear from some Bravo watchers that have never seen Survivor, that they're like curious, interesting. but don't know what to do. Do you have, like, any tips or any recommendations of people who have watched traders and are maybe, like, okay, I feel like I've missed 25 years of culture.

Where do I start? Okay, this is interesting. So, typically, I'm like, because I'm a completist by nature. So I love to be like, you got to go back season one, episode one, and, you know, let it rip. But I realize now, you know, Survivor's about to premiere season 48. that can be a difficult ask. My one thing is, do not start with an all-star season. I think that the all-star seasons of Survivor are the best seasons.

So it's very easy when you ask people, what season of Survivor should I watch? And they're going to tell you, watch Micronesia, watch Heroes versus Villains, you know, watch Blood versus Water. Those are terrific seasons of television, but they're not entry level. And I think that that is a mistake that a lot of people make. So I would say if I were to give you my, if you're not starting from the beginning, I would say watch season 15 China. I think that season packs so much punch and it is a newbie season. It has the old school flavor of the show, but it's not so old school that it can be a little slow.

Because some people complain that the earliest seasons of Survivor can be a little slow because there aren't as many twists. I like that aspect of it, but I can understand why someone wouldn't. And so I think 15, season 15 is definitely the season. And I think that there's a character, Courtney, she's my all-time favorite survivor player. That really gives you the Bravo flavor. Is China like Amanda and James too? Yeah, okay, that's a good one. That's a good one.

And then if you like that, you can advance right on to season 16 because a lot of the players from 15 come back for 16, which is. an all-star season. I think you will have earned that season. You have that you got to earn it. Yeah. You can't just jump right in with like the top tier. You got to lay the groundwork. You have to earn it. Well, Evan, this has been so fun.

Tell everyone, you have exciting White Lotus stuff happening. You're always doing so many different things. Tell people what you have going on. Yeah. So I am currently hosting the White Lotus Lookback podcast for HBO. We have our sixth episode coming out soon. It's a seven episode

series that we did featuring all of the cast of the first two seasons and the creative team. I will highlight episode seven, which is coming up, is the interview with Mike White that I think is must listen to if you're a fan of the show. It's just rare to get opportunities to hear him being interview, but also to go this long about the show. And I think he really opens up about the creative process of bringing it to life and talks about sort of the stress of having something as successful as the White Lotus and then having to like push forward and continue to try and create iconography, which I really enjoyed. And then I will be, you know, stay tuned. I did this, I shot this, uh, eight commercials in Thailand that are going to be airing ahead of each episode.

And it's like sort of there's the plot of the commercials mirrors the plot of the episode. Um, so we just debuted the first one today, in fact. Yeah, so fun. Yeah, but those will be coming out. And so that was really crazy because I've never been in front of the camera before. Can't say it was an aspiration of mine going in, but I definitely had a good time. But, you know, I am not, I am much more comfortable behind the camera, behind the scenes, but that was really fun. So stay tuned for that. And then also I will be doing, um, uh, episodic recapping, uh, of the White Lotus on my Survivor podcast, Drop Your Buffs. Perfect. Love to see it. Everybody go listen. And thank you so much, Evan, uh, for, for being here. Thank you. And I just want to say,

Dylan, like, I have pulled back on my consumption of a lot of podcasts in 2025 because I'm trying to be more mindful about what kind of media consumer I am, but I remain so faithful to you. And I just love your perspective. And I also have to say, like, your voice is just so listenable. I love listening to your voice. It calms me. I don't have a calm voice, but you do. Five years into podcasting, and I still disagree, but I thank you so much for the kind words.

Thanks again to Evan Ross Katz. And thank you all for listening. Don't forget to rate review and follow the show wherever you listen so you never miss an episode. We'll be back with more tomorrow. You can follow us on Instagram at Bravo by Betches. And until next time, be cool. Don't be all like uncool. Mentioned It All is produced by me, Dylan Hafer, and edited by Kate McCallif.

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