Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - From Korea to Queens: Min Jin Lee on the American Dream

Episode Date: September 29, 2026

Your Mama’s Kitchen is back! We’re kicking off our new season with best-selling author Min Jin Lee (“Pachinko”), whose latest book, “American Hagwon,” hits shelves on Sept 29. In today’s episode, Min Jin takes us inside the kitchen in Elmhurst, Queens where her family built a new life after immigrating from Korea. Around the table, food became a language for everything they were carrying: pride, sacrifice, exhaustion, and the weight of starting over in America. It’s an intimate story of immigration, and how the kitchen table shaped her writing. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And I think, oh, gosh, it must have been absolutely horrendous to come in your 40s to a new country in a second language where you don't know anybody with exactly $5,000. And also to experience that class dislocation from middle class to being nobodies. Welcome back to your mama's kitchen. a place where we explore how we are shaped as adults by the kitchens that we grow up in as kids. And we're joined today by Minjin. Thank you so much for having me here. I'm really happy to be at the table with you. I always think that's probably the best way you can get to know somebody, really, just to

break bread with them. The word companion, I don't know, can I just be totally a nerd here, comes from the words con paneros. It means with bread. Really? Yeah, con pan. I did not know that. So tell me about your mama's kitchen.

Tell me her name. Tell me her style of cooking. Does she have a kitchen personality? What do you remember about that kitchen? Well, my mother is now 86 years old. She has all white hair. She was the daughter of a preacher. And she's a really just a spectacular person, so wise and kind.

and she would give you everything that she had. If you said, like, oh, I can't make rent, she would give to the point where my father would have to say, wait a minute, what are you doing here? That's gas money. She's that person. And she studied music as a child. And also when she went to university,

she taught piano at the, at her house, at the house when we're growing up. Because my father would always quit his jobs. My father would just up and quit his job. We had, there are three kids. My mom taught piano to feed us, and she never quit her job. And she somehow found time to cook all the time. Did she enjoy cooking? I think she has these kinds of, like, very aesthetic standards.

So if you said to her, you know, what do you think about this rice, something really elementary, like white rice? She would say, it's fine. but she has a particular standard because she knows what it should be. Okay. So she's actually quite difficult. It's fine is one of those really elastic responses. Yes. That often doesn't mean it's fine.

Right. But also because she has this very faith-based worldview, she's always grateful. Okay. So she wouldn't say, I'm not going to eat it. All right. Or that we can't have it. But she would say, so that's what I find sort of interesting. she's not the sort of blanket. I'm grateful for everything. She is grateful for everything,

but she'll tell you that's a B minus. But you won't say it's a B minus. She'll just say, it's fine. It's fine. And she'll never hurt the person's feelings. So that, but you can always tell by her micro expression. So I think that in a way, all three of us, my sisters and I, we grew up kind of going like, oh, they didn't like that. Okay. So you have to learn how to speak English and mom. Yes. And my mom speaks a very coded, specific kind of a moment. emotional language. Was that emotional language evident in the kitchen? Was she judgmental about her own cooking, for instance? Like she'd serve you something and she'd say, it's okay, but enjoy. Yes, and also because she was always working in America especially, my sisters and I had to do the

prep work. So when she came home from work. So I'm sorry, in America, she worked at the store with daddy. So my father and my mother had a little tiny store in Manhattan. Initially, it was a newspaper stand for one year. And then afterwards, I had a wholesale jewelry business of size of this table. So, and they worked there six days a week. So when they came home, the rice was washed. Okay. The vegetables were prepped. My older sister, who was only nine or ten, had to do all this. Wow. With instructions? With instructions. And My older sister is really smart. Like she has a really super high IQ.

I'm the dumb one in the family. Well, then y'all must be. No, no, no, really. She's not normal. She's not normal smart. She can catch on so fast. She was doing a lot of work as an immigrant kid. So she helped my mom a lot.

And then my mother would come home and do the third shift or the fourth shift and do all the cooking. So when we're growing up and she was working all the time, she had a kind of And we also had to make due because we didn't have money. So you weren't getting, you know, good cuts of meat. So I remember we seeed a lot of chicken gizzards. I didn't know that there were poor people food. Like I didn't know we were poor until I went to college. And I was like, oh, we didn't have money.

Oh, I get it. But that's a gift your parents gave you. Oh, I think so because I felt like a wealthy person. It's kind of funny. We grew up in a poor neighborhood, which meant that everybody did. and have stuff. So you don't feel inferior. So even now, like, I don't feel inferior almost ever. And I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that we're all in the same boat. And your parents gave you that. Oh, definitely. Where were you living then when you were eating

gizzards and your parents were working at the Elmer's Queens? Okay. Very posh neighborhood. Neighbor that's gone through a lot of changes. I mean, a lot of changes. But take me back to Elmer's Queens. What did that kitchen look like? Was it in an apartment? It was in an apartment. It was not very nice on Van Cleek Street. And it was a rental. So initially we had a one, it had a like a one-bedroom rental with furniture.

Truly disgusting. Again, even as a young person, I knew it was not nice. Because in Korea. As a young person, you were like, well, also my mother was so sad. Because our house in Queens was really clean. I mean, in Korea was really clean. Yeah. And it wasn't fancy, but it was.

was a perfectly nice house. I mean, she was a piano teacher. My father worked in a company. So it was perfectly middle class. Again, not fancy, not as nice as our relatives' houses. But then when it came to New York, it was just like, it was like this orange shag carpet, which I'll never forget. It was so tacky, like literally like tactile of like oil and body grease and like cooking, you know what I mean? That sort of stickiness. And it was just dirty. and my mother was cleaning and cleaning, but you can't get that kind of grime out. So I remember that.

So that kitchen really didn't even exist. It was basically like a wall thing. And then our next apartment was a little nicer. But when you're living in a New York City apartment, you can't escape cockroaches. No matter how clean you are, other people around you have roaches, just disgusting, and mice.

And then finally, we saved up enough money and my parents bought a little three-family house. in Maspith, that's when we moved up in the world. And we lived in the second floor, and my parents rented the third floor and the first floor. And with that rent, they paid the mortgage. And my parents' logic was that if they died, we wouldn't be homeless. And you'd all have a place to live. Right.

The three girls would all have a place to live. Because it was very dangerous because my parents were getting held up and attacked in New York. What, your parents were getting held up? At their store? They had this tiny jewelry store. It was a very dangerous time. So like a stick-up? Someone would come in?

Guns. You talk about this as if it's so matter of fact. Well, I think because, I mean, I don't... I always think about the New York of my childhood, 70s and 80s. It was a very dangerous time in certain areas. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, I mean, I've been held up at my parents' store.

What happened? Oh, I was working on a Saturday. I was in high school, like maybe a freshman in high school. In the weekends, I worked and helped my parents' store quite a lot. And they opened the store around 6.30 in the morning. So, Daddy and I would go into the store on Saturday. And then as soon as we opened the store, we let some customers in. And they were, I guess you called them robbers because they want money from you right away.

They were thieves. They weren't burglars or robbers, right? So then they're robbers. Speaking like a true lawyer, you know, the difference between a burglar and I think there are four of them. It happened so fast. But I was standing right behind the cash register. My dad was here. And they're all wearing masks and like a hat.

Like they just kind of, I don't know how they did it so fast. And they all had two had big guns and one had a little gun. It was like like this. My father standing next to me. And immediately my father took out all the money and we handed over all the gold because at that point he was still selling gold. And they left, it was seconds. So they must have really, what is it, case to join. They had studied.

They'd watched you. They knew that we opened at a certain time. And at the time, the customers didn't come. And this is even before, because it was our routine for me to go to Speedy Deli and get an egg sandwich for both of us and coffee. But it was even before we went to the deli to get the breakfast. So they were there as soon as you were there. They knew exactly what they're doing. And then the police came, and of course nobody ever got caught.

So your parents were making their way in America. Yeah. And raising three young girls trying to figure out how to hold on, I imagined, a part of their life in Korea. And South Korea and your father's from North Korea, is that correct? Trying to hold on, trying to make sense of what. what's happening back in the Korean Peninsula and trying to raise three girls. Yeah. Did they protect you from what must have been a cauldron of emotions that they were going through?

Was the kitchen table a place where you talked about those things? Or was that the respite where instead you talked about more aspirational things? Oh, it's such a good question and so smart and wise. You know, now that I'm 57, I think like them. Like, I think what they're thinking. I'm not a child anymore. And I think, oh, gosh, it must have been absolutely horrendous to come in your 40s to a new country in a second language where you don't know anybody with exactly $5,000. It's not a lot.

And also to experience that class dislocation from middle class to being nobody's. Because that's what it really comes down to. Like when you're working in a newspaper stand, you're below nobody. So I've seen my father get treated very badly by people. So the table, in a way, I think they were so frustrated. Because when they came home, my mother was trying to feed us. And my father was so exhausted. And also, he's a really proud person.

So people just basically shut on him all day. And I think women of color were so used to that humiliation. And I think for my father, he wasn't used to that humiliation. So they're both being humiliated. But one person couldn't handle it very well. So I just remember dinner table being very, it was tough. And I used to always sit next to my father because I'm a fairly calming person. And I really listened to him.

So he would tell stories about growing up. And he would tell stories about not what the day had been like, but usually about Korea. My mother, she was so busy. She was cooking, passing the dishes, getting the dishes done. And, you know, my younger sister is probably fidgeting because she was so little. And my older sister, again, I mean, I think she must have been experiencing so much heartbreak because in Korea, she was a very successful young person.

Like she was a popular person. She was class president. And she went to the cool school. And then she came here. And again, she's nobody. We're wearing somebody else's clothing. Like a lot of hand-me-downs from my cousins. Nothing fit.

You know, and all of it must have been hard for her in a way that I was kind of uptoe. So I didn't even know how uncool I was. Whereas I think she really. So you were still like clay. You had not been molded yet. I didn't know anything. I just wanted them to be happy. happy, my parents. How did they make sure that you were happy when they were going through so much?

I think they cared about it, and I think they care about it a lot now. But I think they were just trying to survive. I really get that sense. And they were trying to be decent. And I remember my mother used to say, you know, your father, he doesn't go out and drink. He doesn't do bad things. Because at that time, there are so many men who are out there drinking, chasing other women. Coping. Coping. Gambling, doing all the bad things.

And so people have this idea of this model minority of Asians. But, like, that's not who I know. So all the Korean Americans that I know, especially in that generation, like, I knew a lot of people who cheated. on their taxes and ran away or skipped out on their rent or, you know, beat their wives. Like those are real stories of my community. In the same way, there's so much love. Both those things are true. But when I think back now, I realize they must have been under quite a bit of pressure.

But to answer your question about my happiness, I think they probably thought nothing was wrong because I never complained. Like, I still don't really like to complain. I find it so interesting that you became. your father's empath, that you became the person who listened, because that makes sense to me given how beautifully you write and how evocatively you write and how you're able to capture emotion and male emotion in your characters. Do you think that goes back to those kitchen table conversations? Well, you just figured out something that I couldn't figure out, and I've had a lot

of therapy, too. Well, I like men. I like men. I like men. I like women. I'm a feminist and I get along really well with men. And I think part of it's because I see how their struggle is different that our struggle, right? And I think men of color and women of color have different ways of being oppressed and being excluded and also being celebrated. It's really different. And my position always is, I want to like you. I want to like the best thing about you. It's there. You can show me because I'm here for it. That's a lovely way to approach that. Like, I know it's there.

Yeah, I know it's there. So can we see it? Can we see it? And if it's there, I really want to help it be fostered for everybody. I really want that. And this has helped me in my life because then people show me. They do. People really will show you if they feel safe, even when people are very sharp edges.

Because there's a lot of that in New York. Yeah. Yeah. And hurt people, hurt people. Yes. And also scare people are dangerous. Yeah. So it's something that we're mindful of.

You know, as we say, a lot of stuff happens at the kitchen table. You know, and it's not just about the food, but let's talk about the food for a minute. Because I wonder for your father was separated from his family. They have an interesting, I don't want to say meat, cute story, but they have an interesting story about how they met and then came to America. And then once they got here was food its own kind of comfort. Was food a way to hold on to their culture? I'm always interested in this, particularly in American Christians, because it can be the place where you hold on to your culture.

It can also be the place where you try on being American. And then you've got kids that are going out into a world where they come home and they want tater tots and spaghettios and all the stuff that's advertised on television, and Count Chocula, you know, and maybe not the things that are being served at the kitchen table. Was food an interesting bridge for you and your family? Oh, I mean, there are 18,000 different stories about food, but one of the ones that's very funny, it's actually not a loving story, it's actually a fighting story, which is hilarious now when we look back to it. So my mother went to the grocery store, and she wanted to make something from my dad, and she wanted to make impurgogi, which is marinated, sliced meat.

usually round sirloin, something like that. She couldn't find that kind of cut at the grocery store back then, especially at our not very nice grocery store. So she buys this packaged meat, and it's wrapped in plastic, and it has kind of like liquid in it. And she doesn't understand it, but she's like, this is what Americans must like. She takes it home, and she slices it,

and she adds soy sauce and all the different marinerates to make burghurgi. She makes it, and my father, takes a bite and it looks delicious and he spits it out. And it turned out that she had bought corn beef. Oh, very different flavor profile. But it's already salted. And you're supposed to boil that thing to get all the salt out. But of course, she doesn't know that. It doesn't know about Irish beef. But that was an example of where, and then she was so mortified because it was so expensive. It was not in our food budget. Remember, like we're eating gizzards and spam. And then she buys this thing as a special treat. for him and then he spits it out and he's not thinking oh I'm sorry I hurt your feelings and I really appreciate you doing what you he's not that person he got angry because he's thinking like you're wasting money and how could you not know that my heart hurts for her right but does that make

that's like an immigrant story where now my mother tells us a story and it's funny but back then all I remember is the crying because that's what happened yeah my mother's crying my father's yelling, we have this thing that nobody can eat. And we wouldn't even know how to repair it if we tried. Because the idea of boiling meat would have been a totally different kind of cut of meat for Koreans. Right. Anyway. But, you know, like most family arguments, it wasn't about the corned beef. No. There was, you know, underlying issues, probably about money and frustration and everything else that came boiling up to the surface. Exactly. A very salty cut of meat. Everybody's pride was hurt because my mother, you know, she went to this very fancy college. She studied music. She sees

herself as a very cultured person. And here she is, like behind the counter with people who are basically thinking she's nothing. And then she's going to the grocery store, so she wouldn't have shopped in Korea. And I think for her to feel stupid in her own kitchen, right? Oh, man. I know. And the shame of not being able to look wise and a good cook in front of your own daughters. So all of that is in that story where I, where it's funny now because my mother's like, and I bought corned beef or burgogee.

And of course it's ha-ha. But at that moment, I just remember. There's power in that too, though, and being able to look at painful moments and laugh at them. That's taking agency, right? Because that story could be told over and over again as a dirge as something that. Oh, that's exactly right. You do this to me.

Exactly right. And also now my mother, she's stronger than my dad now because she's 86 and he's 91. So she talks back. That's my mother now. When did that happen? Your 80s. Like if you're a Korean woman and you make it to your 80s, you just take no shit. At least from my mother.

I mean, there's a lot of tough Korean women who are 15, who are 15 years old. That must have been beautiful to watch for you. It is. And at the same time, it's weird to see my father really, retreat as an older person. Just when they're kind of, what was that expression, sunsetting? When you get older and you get kind of quiet? Involnerable.

Yeah. Yeah. When was the first time you heard your mom talk back to your day? Literally, like, in her 80s. What happened? Well, whenever, so during COVID, they couldn't leave their house. So every week, my husband and I would go to their house and deliver groceries, right? And she would say, well, Daddy did this and he didn't listen to me and he didn't take his vitamins.

And she's going on and on and on. And I'm looking at her going like, huh. And he's just kind of sitting there because what's he going to do? Yeah. Because she's doing everything at that point. And it's COVID. There's nobody else. So that was interesting about how a horrible.

horrible global illness made my mother sassy. Yes. Was it kind of cool to watch her enter this period of disinhibition if she's thinking it, she's saying it? And did she learn in some way from watching you and your sisters?

Because I'm not saying you're sassy, but you are direct. I am direct, and also, I think having gone to law school, my sisters and I, we all went to law school, we know what our rights are, which is very powerful. I always just kind of think that everybody should be able

to get a legal education in this country because then you would not put up with the lying. There's so much lying. And illegality and rights that are owed to you in which if you didn't know

those rights existed, you can't complain. You don't even know that you have standing. and that makes me a little nuts. I am imagining a holiday table and your mother and your father, but your mother in particular watching her three daughters that they have brought to America, raised in America, under really difficult circumstances, made sure that you all three got the best schools possible,

made sure that books were in the home, made sure that you were going to the library, and you all did it. You all go to law school and you all come home with your big degrees and your beautiful finery because I know how you dress. So I imagine your sisters are equally sartorial. And she must be at this table listening to the three of you have this conversation. And that must have been like an education for her. Well, I think she takes such pride in us.

Like I have grown up with that. I have grown up with my parents being proud of me. And I got to say it's another kind of blessing. You can have the blessing of your parents loving you. When your parents actually feel like, oh, you did the right thing, thank you. There's a, there's very, it's very special. And it's not just my achievements, even like me being alive because I had this very serious liver disease. They're just so happy that I'm alive.

So I really get the sense that when they see me, I can see them light up. And to have that, it's, I think I'm stronger because of it. I'm more buoyant because of it. I always feel like if there's a way you could somehow love your child and look at them with favor, they will be stronger. So when the kids who don't get it, I think they didn't get that wealth given to them. Your latest book, American Haghorn, talks about Korean culture through education and through aspiration. And there's something about the kitchen table in that also because particularly,

particularly in a Korean household, I imagine. I'm not, and it's not unique, but in immigrant households, in households where parents are striving and put so much hope in their children, and it's not just immigrant households. I'm African-American. I grew up at the same thing. You better get that education. You know, this is your engine of upward mobility.

But the kitchen table is where a lot of that stuff happens. It's where the homework has done. It's where the aspirations are laid on your shoulder. or it's where disappointments are articulated. What role did the kitchen table play in your educational journey? And how does that relate to the latest book that you've written? I think it's at the kitchen table when we really just, it's a place of repair.

It's a place of respite. It's a place of recognition. It's also a place of assessment. How are you doing? Like what's going on? Why do you look this way? Like, if I gain two pounds, my mother notices. Really?

Yes. If I lose five pounds, they notice. And it's not a good thing because I've had this illness. So for them, weight is always about... So they're watching you very carefully. Yes. Are you healthy? So it's not about aesthetics.

No, it's not at all. And my mother doesn't wear a drop of makeup. So she's really a preacher's kid. She's very plain. And whenever we give her nice things, she's really tickled. She's so happy. But at the same time, it's really hard for her to even say, I wanted that. So it gives me great pleasure when I have more money to give her nice things because

she's literally transformed like a kid. Because she didn't get that stuff as a kid because it wasn't allowed. And I just kind of think, like I get very cross with people who don't let four people have nice things. Because I just kind of think, this is so. forbidding. It's not, I imagine that, especially religious people, because I kind of think, if you really believe that there's a God and providence, my imagination and my understanding of Christianity is that there's actually abundance. There's an infinite amount that we can have. So this whole idea of like, you could only have this much. It's very troubling to me.

I want to go back to that question, though, about the kitchen table. Was it a, was, what, what role did the kitchen table play in your education journey? Is that where your family made clear what was expected of you? Well, I sound like such a nerd, but I liked bringing home good news. Mm-hmm. I was that child. And I wanted to, because they were so tired my parents when they came home. And I didn't want them to have one more bad experience.

Yeah, at the table, I received so much love. And also, I wanted to give this thing to them. Yeah. One time I'm just going to be this, like, really cool customer. That's, yeah, could take my beta blocker. My friend's always like, you know, you could just take one. And I'm like, you're right. Yeah, but it's, it's okay.

to feel things because what you're feeling is memories. Yes, and I wasn't expecting this today, but thank you. And good ones, because you did deliver good news. Yeah, and I wanted to. Yeah. And I wanted to. I think there's a part of it that still is like that. And it's not just for my parents.

I want to deliver good news to my community. Mm-hmm. I do. I want to see them because I don't feel like they're treated fairly. Is that work its way into your writing? Oh, yeah. It's why I write. is why I write, because I think that if people really knew who we were, we wouldn't be.

We as Koreans. Koreans, Asian Americans, people of color, immigrants. If you really saw who we were, you wouldn't say this nonsense. You wouldn't have all this nationalized programs of hatred and exclusion. I mean, you know all of these laws. It's because we're just like you. We're your neighbors. To drop a book like this right now in America, while we're having a conversation about who is American, who gets to be fully American, who gets to be authentically American.

Yeah. You've been working on this book for, is it 10 years? Ten years. So, you know, the old folks say when it's right, it's right on time. I mean, it's a book really, and, you know, when we're thinking about education differently. We're thinking about, you know, opportunity differently. does it feel like, can you just say a word about the book and whether you think that it does really sort of meet the moment because of when it's surfacing?

I think it's meeting the moment. So the book is about a family that goes from America to Korea to Australia, back to Korea, back to California. So there's a lot of movement in this work. And it's about the education of their three children and how they can educate them. And all three have different experiences of education. The reason why I think it meets the moment is because we're seeing a rise of authoritarianism. We're seeing the otherization of any convenient group around the world. It's not just America. We're seeing it globally, and it's because we're feeling a sense of scarcity and fear because we're experiencing a tremendous economic and technological change and a shift. and in our powerlessness and in our fear, we are once again scapegoating whoever is convenient to us.

I am trying to figure out in this work, if you are that other person, how will you manage? And if you think you're on your way out, how will you raise your children to adapt to this level of fast change? And also, how can you be wise and ethical in this time? because it's not just about being a smart person. I've met so many smart people. And I wish some of them would just go away because they're so unethical. Education does not equal virtue.

We all know this now, right? All the 20th century, all the wars, that this is proven. We can do greater evil if we're smart. So that's what I really have tried to explore in this book. The story that you told at the beginning of our interview about being held up. Yeah. Story you described so calmly next to your father, you didn't close the store.

No. You showed back up again. Of course. And you kept going. That is something that isn't every single one of your books. Free Food Famillionaires, Pichinko, now America. People, and they keep showing up. And in the end, they chose America.

Yeah. Is there something in that also? I think that, you know, the line that I know that you know is, America is a country where our enemies want to live. We forget that, is that there are so many problems that America can have, but even our enemies want to live here. Because it's possible to have a whole other life in a way that other countries with their really entrenched hierarchies.

Because it's a baby country. It is so young. So young compared to the rest of the world. It is so young. So anything's really possible. At the same time, we have so deregulated our country where that safety nets are just so quickly disappearing. And we have undone so many advances in civil rights that it is getting really unwieldy in terms of managing as a person who has less power than the people who have the most. And yet America is in the heart of so many people outside this country as a beloved place in the world.

which it's possible that they could still succeed. And when they come here with these big dreams and all they have are their bodies, it's very powerful. And the thing is, this country really needs immigrants. Try to get by without them. Try to go to any restaurant without an immigrant working in it. And it's not just the restaurant. It's how the food is procured, how it's grown, how it is delivered, how it is.

you know, we we don't think about that very often and we perhaps should. Yeah, I guess we don't, especially right now. I guess we don't want to think about it. I guess we don't want to think about it because it's so much easier to say, my problems are related to them, even though the logical connections aren't there. And I really think maybe the whole point of education is can we connect the dots? Yeah. If we can connect the dots, perhaps, and also and be civic.

minded. I think that's the power of storytelling also. I mean, everything I do as a storyteller, I try to make sure that people can see other worlds, but at the same time see themselves. So there are stories that you're telling growing up in a Korean household, that someone who grew up in a Lithuanian household, in a Greek household, or an African-American household, could relate to if we tell our stories and food is often the connector in there. Because we're all hungry. Yeah. We all have to eat. And whether you're, you're, over a stove or a brick kiln, you know, the food has to be. It has to come from somewhere.

So one of the things that we always do in the show is we always make sure that we get a recipe that means something special to our guests. Is there a recipe that you want to share with our listeners? Yeah, I brought in a cucumber salad recipe because it's really easy and it's fairly inexpensive. So you just get some Persian cucumbers, and I chose Persian cucumbers. In Korea, you actually, it's Korean cucumbers, which are kind of like Kirby, but they're harder to find. I think Persians are pretty close. And then you slice it to about half an inch.

Do you peel them? No, you don't have to peel them. You can if you want to, if you have very, like, waxy ones, I would peel those. And then you put salt. I have the full recipe. I think it's going to be on the website. And you soak it for half an hour. You rinse it really, really well.

You squeeze it until it's almost dry. And you toss in just some chili flakes if you have it. If you don't have chili flakes, you can use chili crunch if you have it. If you don't have chili crunch, you can use Kuchutter, which is even harder to get if you're not used to that. But more easily, you know, you can find it out. Trader Joe's now. No, those Korean importers, exporters are been very busy. Attending food shows.

Because now it's everywhere. And then you can also put in chopped garlic, sesame oil, vinegar, and a little meat in if you have it. If you don't have meat in, add sugar. And you can serve it with anything because it's a pickle. Like almost every culture has a kind of pickle. I didn't want to give you a kimchi recipe because it's going to freak people out. But I think this is kind of like a homemade, almost equivalent to a kitchen. How long do you refrigerate it?

An hour. You can eat it plain. You don't have to refrigerate it. Is it better if you refrigerate it for an hour? It's better. Yeah. Yes, you're right. You know, you said you were going to give us a kimchi recipe.

Fermentation is so important in Korean culture. Are there lessons in that in fermentation? I mean, I just wondered if you grew up, because it's so different than the way that I, I mean, my mother pickled and she made, she canned and things like that. But you have to tend to kimchi. You have to burp it. You have to watch it. Is there?

Actually, I think that canning is way more scientific and hygienic than kimchi. But you do it once and then you put it away and put it in a dark room in the basement and you don't think about it for another eight months. Whereas this, where is kimchi, you have to work it and then you have to, you have to talk to it. You have to have a conversation with it. You have to, you know. Well, it's funny because kimchi is also kind of a category. It's a category of food. It's kind of a pickled food.

And every household is a different kind. And also every vegetable can be pickled in a different way. And they're all called kimchi. So you can have radish. You can have cabbage. You can have cucumber. you can have scallion kimchi, just plain scallion. That sounds really good.

It's really good, and it's good for you. Okay, you're going to pass that recipe under the table because I want some scallion. And also, if you like, they're, gosh, like Chinese leaks, which are really narrow leaks, that's a mix of amazing. Really? Because I usually think in them almost julienned really finely, but that sounds like that would be amazing. Amazing. And also, it's really good for you. So it has so much nutrition.

And now apparently food scientists have found that kimchi can get rid of microplastics in your body. What? I know. Where do you read that? It's actually in several different food publications. If you Google kimchi some microplastics, they've actually found this because you have lactobacillus. Apparently will help you get rid of microplastics in your body. So not only is it a probiotic, it's a perfect food.

All right. Adding that to our skill set also. Oh, good. And maybe an extra refrigerator, so you can, you know, make sure that you can keep all of that. Do you cook now? I do, yeah. And met your husband, Chris. He cooks also?

He does, who does the cooking most often? Now, Chris, because he's retired. So before my son went to college, I made three meals a day. And then. Wait, you made three meals a day? Three meals a day. I even packed a breakfast for him to take to school. Uh-huh.

Because that's who I am. Okay. All right. And then after he went to college, because he went to college in 2016, and then Pachinko came out in 2017, my life changed. Yeah. Because I've only been successful for about five or six years. Well, your first novel was... It did fine.

But, like, believe me, it did not change my life, like, in that way. It allowed me to publish a second book. You know how it goes. When Sam went to college, something just changed. I just didn't feel this kind of... date. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're cooking for two, which is different. Right. When the house, the nest empties out. It's just a little bit different. And I eat less in the evening. Do you entertain a lot? Do you cook? When I entertain, we cook for a lot of people. My big problem

is that I'll say, oh, Michelle's coming to town. So she's coming to dinner. And they'll think, like, well, wait, Michelle's friends with this other person. We should invite them too. And it becomes like, you have 12 people at the table. No, 40. 40. Oh, okay. All right. Well. Like all of your friends will come. So then it ends up being this big thing. And my husband's like, so I usually tell Chris, nobody's going to come. I'll invite them, but they're not going to come.

It'll just be Michelle and me. Yeah, but everyone knows that you cook well. And then it turns out that everybody comes. Everybody comes and brings a few people. Right. And it's great. We must cook together one day. It's really fun.

I would love that. I would love that too. We must do that. I have loved talking to you. Oh, you're a joy. I knew this was going to be special. 18 times. I am so sorry.

My mascara is a little watery also. But that means we had a good and yeasty conversation. We went places and I have loved this. And I have held her handy. You have guided me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for listening to your mama's kitchen.

This was a conversation that nourished me in every way. I learned so much about Mingen as a person and as a writer. And I feel like I need to go back and read American Haghorn again because I think it'll hit me differently now knowing a little bit more about your family. Oh, thank you. Thank you for letting me be here. Thanks for listening. Be comfortable.

Well, that's it for this episode of your mama's kitchen. If you want to join us in the kitchen, email us a voice memo or a message at yM-K at acast.com. That's the letters, YM-K at acast.com. Tell us a story, send us a recipe, just say, hey, we want to hear about your mama's kitchen. And if you tell us a story, we might just feature it on an upcoming episode. I'm Michelle Norris, host and executive producer. Your Mama's Kitchen is an ACAST Originals production.

Our lead producer is Maddie Folle. Producers include Taylor Williamson, Sarah Schlead, and Joya Put-Noin, along with Melissa Bear with Say What Media. Our editor is Grace Lynch. The executive producer team includes Jenny Kaplan and Emily Rudder. Booking support from Angela Paluso at Day Moon Talent. Our show's closing song is 504 by the Soul Rebels. Special thanks to Martha's Vineyard Community Television and Clean Cut Studio in Washington, D.C. We're glad you're here.

We hope you come back next week because guess what? We are always, always, always serving up something special. Stay vulnerable.