Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - How Carla Hall Went From Theater Kid To Top Chef

Episode Date: January 11, 2026

Top Chef star and renowned cooking show judge Carla Hall takes us back to the Sunday Suppers she grew up going to at her grandmother's house outside of Nashville, Tennessee. Carla details the unconventional road she took to becoming a chef, including being a theater kid and modeling in Paris. She also opens up about learning of her grandmother's dementia through the way she made her mac & cheese. Plus, we learn how to make her family's extra special pound cake.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Your Mama's Kitchen is brought to you by Rivian. Mama, what's wrong with Granny's Mac and Cheese? She's like, nothing's wrong with it. I'm like, are you serious? This is not Granny's Mac and Cheese. And I think I was the first person who I was like, now I'm interviewing people. Now I'm saying, okay, do you remember what Granny's Mac and Cheese was like? Do you remember it's having the cheese sauce and sticking together and the cheese on top

and it was not of brown and crusty around the edges? This ain't that. this is not right. What's wrong with granny? And so you were the one who paid attention. That was your first clue. Mm-hmm. Hello, hello.

Welcome back to your mama's kitchen. This is a place where we explore how we are shaped as adults by the kitchens that we grew up in as kids. And yes, I'm talking about the food, but so much other stuff as well. The laughter, the rivalries, the music on the radio, the way you'd snap your towel at your siblings when you were doing the dishes after dinner. I'm Michelle Norris, and our guest today is Carla Hall, and I'm so excited about this. She made a name for herself competing on two separate seasons of Top Chef and sharing all the time her philosophy, her beautiful philosophy, that cooking is really all about love. She went on to host and judge on many other shows, including Worst Cooks in America and Top Chef.

She's written two children's books, and she has written several cookbooks, cookbooks that I use in my own kitchen, which is why I am so excited to talk to Carla today. Hey, hey, Carla. Hi, Michelle. It's so great to chat with you. It's really great to be with you. You know I'm a big fan of yours, and we've been trying to nail this down for a while. Glad that we caught you in New York City and glad that we caught up with you in December, because it's a time when a lot of people are heading to the kitchen, to cook for their families, to make cookies and cakes and all kinds of confections. And I know that you're probably busy in December also whipping up things for your own family. But I want to take you back to your family story. Because here at your mom's kitchen, we always begin

with this simple question. Tell me about your mom's kitchen. You grew up in Nashville. I think you are the first person that we've talked to in 80 episodes now. That's from Nashville. And I think you also might be the first person from Tennessee. So can you tell me what it was like growing up in a Tennessee kitchen? Okay, first of all, you can never have another first of first, so I'm very excited. So talking about my mama's kitchen is very different than my grandmother's kitchen. So in my mom's kitchen, she didn't really like to cook. She had a rotation of maybe five things.

And she was more or less like, get in there, get out. But I do remember spending time at the kitchen table and doing my homework. It was also a place where we were reprimanded. Oh, you're getting in trouble? Right, right. It was a place where we talked about our day. Growing up, it was a very small kitchen. I feel like it was kind of a place to eat,

but I also never thought about cooking, because my mother didn't really bring joy to cooking. I mean, I don't mean that in a bad way. She eats for sustenance. So it was like a necessary thing. It wasn't her ministry. Correct. But you were nourished.

She fed you. Five things in rotation. What were those five things? Meatloaf, which I love. Spaghetti, hamburger helper. shake and bake and a pot roast. Shake and bake? Girl, and I hail.

Shake it me. You shake. Oh my God. I haven't thought about that commercial. And I helped. Now, there are young people who are going to be listening to this and like, what are they talking about? There was this commercial that was in heavy rotation where all you did is put the stuff in a bag and shake it and bake it. And there was a little kid who.

who touched the bag, I guess, and then he said... And I helped. Do they still sell shaking-and-bake? I feel like... I think it's by Reynolds, and I think they make a baking bag. I honestly don't know if the seasoning mix isn't... I don't know. I don't know what it is.

But you know what? Can we... We'll get back to the kitchen in a minute, but can we just give props to whoever came up with the name, Shake-and-Bake? Because you wanted it just because it was like Shaken-Bake. It sounded like, you know, like something you do on the dance floor, like shake and bake. So that was your mama's kitchen. But I know from watching you and reading your books and knowing a little bit about your life that your grandmother's kitchen was where the magic happened.

Yes. So can you tell me about that kitchen, too? So my granny's kitchen, she lived in Lebanon, Tennessee. I mean, I had two grandmothers who were very influential. That was Thelma, who lived in Nashville. That was my dad's mom, my maternal grandmother, Granny. I talked a lot about, she lived in Lebanon, Tennessee, and her kitchen was open. She had an open floor plan, and she had this metal divider that's like, it was like a gate type thing.

But this is where she hung all of the plates that, When people traveled, they would bring her back one of those state plates. They would bring her back state plates and shock glasses. And she had all of these plates up on that wall. And it was a green firmaica, sort of a peninsula coming out of the wall. And that's what we were set. And she would be on the other side with her oven and the countertop. And then I remember the freezer.

And I feel like I just remember sitting in those chairs waiting for the food to come out. I did not cook. I was not invited into the kitchen. This was the time when we would go there on Sundays. I'm like, oh, my gosh, can we call Granny? Because I want the cornbread to be ready when we get there. And so we don't have to wait. But Granny would never make the cornbread until we were on the inside of her door.

You know. Okay. Was it a superstition or she wanted to make sure that the cornbread was piping hot. She wanted to make sure it was piping hot. Because, you know, warm corn, I mean, I'm sorry, but there really is a difference. Absolutely. I mean, and also this was the difference between, I think, my mother and my grandmother. My mother would be like, okay, I'm cooking.

The food is here. Granny is like, I want to give you the food the way that I want you to enjoy it, the way that I would enjoy it. My grandmother always had real butter. My mother had, um, what is it? Park, I can't believe it's not butter. What? Oh, what was that? Park. Is it parquet? Parquet. Parquet. Parquet and a little plastic container that you always kept and reused. Okay, that part. So my love of butter came from my grandmother. I mean, I'm like, I can taste a difference. would try to convince me that I couldn't. I can taste the difference. Also, in my grandmother's kitchen, I learned the difference between just store-bought tomatoes and homegrown tomatoes.

I actually thought that was the name, home-grown tomatoes, because my grandmother had a garden. She had quick pickles in the fridge. And interestingly enough, she also had ice milk. She would never buy ice cream. What's up with the ice milk? But it was just like an ice cream with 1% milk. It was icy. But my grandmother's kitchen was a place of joy. She was always singing. She smoked. She never learned to inhale.

So there was too much smoke in the air. I remember smelling my cigarette smoke mixed with bourbon because she always had like a little bourbon. And that would be music in the background. But it was absolutely one of my favorite places. What was she listening to? She was listening to Nat King Cole. She was listening to, gosh, what's his name? I see his face.

Like all of these old black greats. Oh my God, I see this man's face, clean, shaven. Lou Rawls? No, not Lou Rawls. Older than that. It'll come to me. Girl child, I'm in a pausal. I have to, like, reach back.

But good music. Good music was on the radio. It was really good music. and she would go through, and she'd be singing. And my sister and I would talk to each other like that with that bravado. Kim, how are you? Are you talking about Johnny Mathis? Johnny Mathis?

Oh, my girl. The vibrato, that bought it back, you know? Come with it. Johnny Mathis with the turtleneck and the pretty hair. Yes. Michelle, come on. Thank you. Mm-hmm.

When you, the voice, I was like, okay, that, that has to be Johnny Mathis. That has to be Johnny Mathis. Yes. What was, so you had one grandmother was Thelma. What was this grandmother's name? Freddie May. Freddie May. The granny was Freddie May, yeah.

Can you just say a word about our cornbread? Because I, there are a few things in life that are more delicious than cornbread. Okay, so first of all, Granny would have the skillet in the oven. And when we got there, she would pull it out, pour the oil in, and push the skillet back into the oven. And then she would make the batter. She would pull the skillet out and it would have that hot oil in it. This is a skillet corn bread. So made specifically with yellow cornmeal.

And then she would pour the batter in there. And because of the hot oil, it would roll up on the sides of the pan. And you knew those were going to be the crispy edges. and then she would put it back in the oven, and I knew that we would be eating in 30 minutes. And that corn bread, when it was split in the top, and then I would, this was the only place I did this, I would cut out a wedge.

I would turn my cornbread on the side and put the butter on the cut side. So I wouldn't cut it open. I wouldn't put it on top. It was on the cut side of the wedge because that butter was just seep in. deep all the way in. What?

We had the same childhood. I would do the same thing. You'd take a big slab of butter because people would cut it in half. I'm like, why are you doing that? Just put it on the side and it just goes all the way through. Yes. Efficient. Did you put honey on your cornbread?

No. I didn't like sweet cornbread. It was not, I wanted, I think, where I'm from in the south, I mean, Alabama, Mississippi and Tennessee, our food is sort of a mix between vinegar, like tangy, sweet and spicy. So the cornbread for me

was for sopping up greens and the pickle juice and all of that. So I never wanted sugar. And maybe because that's not how it was served to me. So my palate doesn't really, unless I'm having, like, I don't know. an appetizer of cornbread, it would never be sweet. I love your grandmother, and I love the picture that you painted of your grandmother with her

cigarette and her little glass of bourbon and her music on the radio. But I am surprised because you spend so much time in a kitchen, and it is your comfort zone right now, that you weren't cooking alongside her. I just had this image in my mind that you were at Apron Strings kid, that you would be standing next to her and sapping up her wisdom and cooking alongside her? No. And you know, I, the only time that I cooked, I was 12, and it was for a Girl Scout badge, and I had made an apple crumble. But other than that, it wasn't, and I wasn't necessarily invited into the kitchen. And I don't think any of my cousins, my first cousins, they weren't in the kitchen. I think it was, so I'm 61 and it was almost like, we, it wasn't an invitation to be in the kitchen.

Yeah, yeah, I understand that. Also, my mother didn't like to cook. My mother went to boarding school, so she never cooked. So it was like, cooking was a chore, right? It's like, did. Is it your time to do this? You know what I mean? And so as kids, we didn't have that chore. But I loved to eat. I mean, I loved food. I mean, I remember as a child, if I liked something, I would just eat it constantly.

If I liked, if oranges were the thing, you know, of the week, I would just eat a bag of oranges until I was just like itching. If it was like, I didn't like, only like homegrown tomatoes, but it was like a particular candy bar. I only ate that candy bar and I ate it every day for a month and then I didn't want it again for a year. So that's how I consumed food and I remember their food. Like I would taste it and I could pull a memory that is so visceral to me. And that's how I cook today. Like if I have something, I can pinpoint, even if I have something, I can pinpoint, even if you

I don't have the recipe if I have the idea of what's in it. I know I can taste it. I'm like, hey, yeah, I get that. I smell that. Okay. Yes. You know. So you cook the way someone who was not classically trained would play by ear sitting at a keyboard. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so is your grandmother your North Star when you think about how you put your own recipes, your own menus together? Yes. She is my North Star. I also consider her. So in our family, everybody came to her house for the family dinners, for the family reunions. When she passed away, well, actually, so she had dementia. And we realized it when the macaroni and cheese was changing. When, you know, I think as kids, my mother, may have known, but as a child, I'm like, why is this macaroni swimming in some milk? Like, what happened?

You know, it's funny how we are not aware of certain things until, like, something that we've been eating all our lives. Like, wait, no, this isn't right, right? So, because I didn't cook, I had to,

the best thing for me to create is not necessarily her written recipes, but having something and remembering how something tasted. And I'd give you an example. I was on the Palladine show once, and everybody should talk about my grandmother's iced tea. I mean, her iced tea was amazing.

Sweet tea. Sweet tea. Come on, girl, you know. I figured, but, you know, for people who are not from the south, I grew up in Minnesota, my father was in Birmingham, Alabama, so I, you know, I understand what is the what. Girl, I totally, I understand your palate from being like Birmingham, Alabama. So sweet tea, I'm on Palladine show, and she did a big tea bag with frozen lemonade,

and then she made, she put in almond extract. I drank that tea. I'm like, oh, my God, wait, wait, this is my grandmother's ice. My grandmother had passed all these years. Nobody ever knew how to make her iced tea. It was the almond extract. And so just that sip of that tea snatched you right back in time. Yes.

To Lebanon, Tennessee. Yes. And that is the power of food. And I was like, oh my gosh. I said, you've just given me a beautiful memory. She said, well, that's what people tell me. I have never had almond extract in my sweet tea. No.

I'm telling you should try it so when I think about almond the flavoring and my granny used that in her pound cake she used it in so many things it is the flavor that connects me directly to my grandmother I want to go back to something you said because it was deep that you knew that your grandmother was changing because the macaroni and cheese didn't taste the same right if you're willing to revisit that memory can you talk a little bit about that particular family gathering. Was it a holiday? Was it a birthday? It was. So we went there every Sunday. So it was like Sunday supper just, you know, and as we got older, it was less and less. It wasn't every Sunday. So I remember we would fix our plates in the kitchen and then we would take them to the den. And so we have our plates. My sister, there. I remember my brother being there, my mom, and nobody said anything when they were getting

the macaroni cheese in the kitchen, but everybody thought it. The spoon went in a little different than it normally does. The spoon went in a little differently. It was like, I don't know what it was like. I remember turning to my sister and I said,

what's wrong with Granny? What's happening with this mac and cheese? Because this is mac and milk. I mean, and she said, I know. And then my brother, who is 18 years, our junior, he just happened to be there. He's like, what's wrong with it? We're like, what?

What's wrong with it? And then we had this whole conversation. I said, Mama, what's wrong with Granny's mac and cheese? She's like, nothing's wrong with it. I'm like, are you serious? This is not Granny's mac and cheese. And I think I was the first person who I was like, now I'm interviewing people. Now I'm saying, okay, do you remember what Granny's Mac and Cheese was like?

Do you remember it's having the cheese sauce and sticking together and the cheese on top and it was a lot of brown and crusty around the edges? This ain't that. This is not right. What's wrong with Granny? And so you were the one who paid attention. That was your first clue. Mm-hmm. Did the family listen to you?

Yes, and you know, when your grandmother or your mom is going through a litany of name, she's like, Carla Kim, Benita, Brenda, you know, everybody does that. Everybody lives through that. And so we had been hearing that. And I think my mom, eventually she got my mom, my grandmother tested. And I remember the medicine for my grandmother. My mother was like, ooh, this medicine is expensive. It's like a dollar a day.

And my grandmother said, there are no memories that I have that are worth a dollar a day. She'd be like, I'm not paying for memories a dollar a day. Is that funny? I mean, she'd had a sense of humor. It's funny, but that's, you know, they went through a depression. They live differently. They would never think of going to Starbucks and playing $5 for a cup of coffee. I mean, they just ordered their steps differently through life.

Yeah, that part. Yeah. I asked you that because that's one of the first places that dementia can show up is in small things. And for someone who was so meticulous in the way that they cook, maybe the way they dress, maybe the way, you know, that they set up their house. but that's where you can sometimes first start to see that. And it's also a reminder to watch. So when it's your turn to make the mac and cheese,

you know how to do it. And to that point, I tell people videotape your family members, the people who cook, videotape them, ask them questions so you can document that. Because even if they don't have a recipe written down, if they measure with a particular cup, or if you catch them adding an ingredient with the particular spoon, you've documented it.

And then so you can go back and grab that cup and see how much it is, grab that spoon and measure it and see how much it is, right? Because then you're able to recreate them and not from necessarily recipes, but from the videos. And you also get their voice. So my mother has dementia, and she was making hot water cornbread, and I filmed her making it.

The interesting thing is hot water cornbread is very different from skillet cornbread that my grandmother's making. So you take white cornmeal, there's some fat in there, there's hot water, the cornmeal blooms with the hot water, there's salt,

and then you make these patties and you fry it. It's so much a part of the muscle memory for my mom to do it that nothing was, lost. Do you know what I mean? Like there is this muscle memory and watching her and again, her fingers in that patty that's now almost like the texture of Plato. It was just beautiful and I'm so glad that I captured it. But for my family, now that my grandmother is gone and I cook, I have called myself the culinary matriarch because it's up to me.

to create the legacy of these dishes and from my memory and senses. And so when I did my first book, a lot of them is I've had to recreate these dishes and taste them and adjust. And then I teach them to my sister's kids, you know, and we serve them at holiday meals because this is what's left. Because if I don't write them down, then they won't be in the family. But how generous of you because you wrote them down there, not just in your family, they're out in the world for the rest of us to enjoy also. Yes.

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I guess we'll talk about Christmas in particular since it is December. How do your holidays, your end of the year holidays compare Christmas New Year to when you were a kid? I think now it's more about food. It's about those dishes. It's not really the gifts. It's about people coming together, people coming over. We always make my grandmother's five-flavor pound cake. We will always have like macaroning cheese. I love cookies. So one of the cookies that I know my grandmother likes that my grandmother would make for her are the oatmeal sandwich cookies. So I'll be. make those, but I make them really small because my mother loves those. Oatmeal sandwich cookies? Yes.

What's in between the, what's the, two oatmeal cookies with something in between? Yes. What's in between? Oh, what's in between? So in between it's the buttercream, a vanilla buttercream. Ooh, yum. So you have to get the oatmeal cookie just perfect. It's with raisins.

I mean, I know raisins seem to be controversial and polarized. No, okay. Raisins are controversial when they're in potato salad. Raisins are okay if they're at an oatmeal raisin cookie. That's where raisins belong. It's when raisins migrate into places where they don't belong if they become controversial. I don't know why I have a lot of people in my life who don't like raisins. I happen to love raisins. So the cookies have to be sort of chewy and crispy on the edges and thin. so that when you sandwich them with the buttercream, they're not really sick.

And it eats as one thing. And so I know that my mother loves those. One of the holidays for me are a time when after doing so many public-facing events for everyone else is when I give to my family. It's when I cook for them. I'm like, I know people's favorites. It's like, what do you want? you know, like I know my brother-in-law loves a pair of Frangipan tart, or I know, you know,

my sister loves fish or peanut stew, or, you know what I mean? Like some of these things, and so it's really how I give back to my family and friends. And I love that. And I spend days cooking, and if anybody wants to join me, they are absolutely welcome in the kitchen. But it's also this gift that can't be bought. You know, it's absolutely making it and saying to them, it's my act of love by giving it to them. It's also how I got into food. And I started cooking, because I hadn't been cooking.

I didn't cook when I was a kid. I started cooking, like, when I moved to Paris. But it was cooking started as an act of gratitude to the people who allowed me to sleep on their couches. You know, and so it sort of remained to be that thing for me. Let's talk about that, because I wanted to talk to you, little bit about your journey into the world of food since you didn't start out as a cook. You didn't plan to be a cook. It was a series of left turns that turned you into a culinary superstar. When you were in Paris, were you literally cooking to say thank you or were you

cooking also because the food was so great and you were trying to figure out how to emulate it in the kitchen? Well, initially, I would go to this woman's house, Elaine Evans, and there would be a bunch of models. And most of them were black. And we should note that you were in Paris in part of because you were modeling. Yes, yes. Correct, yes. Not all of us can say that, okay?

So you should say that and you should own that and strut on that because that's actually pretty cool. I was modeling and I was also in between, I left accounting, I was working for an accounting firm and modeling was the bridge

between what I knew I didn't want to do and what I eventually wanted to do. And I didn't know what that was. So I was in search of that thing, that space that, that made me feel like it was a desire, like, you know, something, something that I wanted to do. I was afraid of being 40 and hating my job, quite frankly. And so when I started cooking, it was, it was exploratory.

It was like, why don't I know how to make macaroni and cheese? It was competitive. It was, wait, what? You know, like all these girls are saying, my mother does it like this. And my mother does it like this. I'm like, I had no idea how it was done. And even though I knew I wasn't going to find a macaroni and cheese recipe in a book in Paris, I started picking up cookbooks and just like going through them and, you know, and making dishes for my friends.

But I also think that this, it's like recipes are puzzles to me. Like I love figuring things out. You know, so it's so many, it's food is just so many things for me. It's olfactory. It's figuring things out. It's like taking something from the invisible to the invisible. It is tasting it. It is sharing it.

You know, it's all of those things for me. So how did you then develop not just the skills, but the confidence to start cooking competitively? Well, I went to culinary school at 30. But then by the time I did Top Chef, I was 44. So that's 14 years that I'd been spending, working in the industry, catering, and doing a lot of different things. So, you know, at this point, by the time I did Top Chef, cooking was the thing that I'd done the longest in my life.

So you bring so much to your work beyond just the skill that you naturally have, the curiosity that you naturally have, the skills you picked up when you went to culinary school, you're also, there's something big about your personality. You're tall, but it's in here. It's not just size. And you were a theater kid growing up in Nashville. And is that part of it? Did that help you when you stepped into this kind of stage?

It is theater. I think theater absolutely helped me on a show like Top Chef. I'm not afraid to be myself. I was very shy as a child. at 12, I wanted to be the black Carol Burnett. I loved Carol Burnett. I loved Dick Van Dyke, Lucille Ball, I love Sammy Davis Jr. I loved physical comedy.

Jerry Lewis. I mean, I loved it. And then I saw my first play in New York, bubbling brown sugar. And speaking of food, bubbling brown sugar. In 1976, my uncle was in the cast, and I was transfixed. there was, I forgot, somebody long, he sang this song, Nobody. And I don't remember the words, but it was like, who wants to do that, da, dot, nobody?

Who wants to go down there? Nobody. After that, for a month, my mother would ask me to clean the room. I was like, who wants to clean up that room? Nobody. I mean, they were like... Oh, my God. You were the most.

I was the most. And one of my mother's friends was, like, put that girl into theater. And so I went to the YMCA. I did theater. Then I went to a theater camp. And I was so shy that theater sort of told me it was okay to be, dare to be you, dare to be different. So when someone said that I was. weird. I'm like, oh, wow, thank you. Because for me, the freedom to be yourself, regardless of what

someone is labeling it, is your power. And so when I found food, when I do anything, it is like, if I feel the freedom to be myself, I've won, you know? Was your height part of that? Yes. My height was because I was really tall. You were tall early, right? Yeah, I was tall early. You know, I, that in the day where they used to line us up by height, I was always in the back, you know, and the guys were up front. Because, you know, girls generally do get taller, faster than the guys.

They just mature faster and really every way, including physically. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I was at least, by eighth grade, I was at least five, eight. I'm six feet tall, but I was five, eight. So, and I just continued to grow.

But yeah, and I was gawky. I mean, I just had limbs for days. And I played basketball in grade school. And this was at the time when there was half court. So, you know, the guys had full court. The girls had half court. My mother was not investing in tennis shoes. So I had buddies. And so I would only get in a game when they were like 30 points ahead. And when I would get the ball, I'm like, yes, I'm going to the line. And then those buddies would slide over the line. And it was a turnover. And it was not pretty. So this was, I mean, that's painting the picture of what it was like, you know, me as a child. And so I was just like this kind of awkward, awkward girl. But theater was the thing, yeah. But when you talk about being awkward and made fun of a little bit and teased, I wonder if that is one of the reasons why you brought a certain spirit to your work as a judge. a culinary judge because, you know, a lot of these judges are, they're mean. You know, they're just the sight of cruel. I mean, it's, it's like what you'd see in, you know, it's the Gordon Ramsey prototype or what you'd see in like the bear, that sort of yes, chef model.

And you brought something completely different. And I don't know if that was what you were asked to do or if that's just who you are. But as I listened to you, talk about your childhood, I wonder if that is, part of what created that approach to judging, which was a little kinder, a little more compassionate? Yeah, I think because I also was a contestant, and I think by saying yes to doing those competition shows, you're saying yes to something that's really hard, something that most people will never experience in their lives. And so I didn't want anybody to break my spirit, and I don't want to break anybody else's spirit. What I want for you, whenever I'm doing those shows,

I want to give you constructive feedback where you can get better, where also you will leave this show. This is not about this show. You will leave this show in this competition and choose another hard thing to do because you said you did it. And then you will eventually find your path, and you will say, hey, I can do it. That is absolute, that's why I love doing these shows.

I never want to break anybody's spirit. I remember when I was on Top Chef and I'm at the judge's table and I thought I was going to go home and this was the first time. And I'm like, oh my gosh, my food was awful. It was between me and Roddicka going home. And I'm like really nervous and like shallow breathing. And then I'm looking at Padma. I'm looking at Gail and I'm looking at Tom and, you know, all shifty eye. And then something came over me.

And I was like, wait, nobody has ever died. here. I'm like, okay, girl, let me put this into perspective. And also, I'm 44. I'm like, what the heck? Nobody's ever died. And I literally, I pulled my shoulders back. I looked directly at Padma. And she was in eyesight. And she had told this story later. She said, I would look at her and she was so uncomfortable because I was just like staring right down the barrel at this woman. But it put everything into perspective. And I think sometimes when you are afraid of something, if you allow that thing to happen, I'm not talking about jumping off a building or anything, but if you're like, wait a minute, if I give into this, what am I really afraid of? Is it rational fear or irrational

fear? And I went on to win many challenges once I came to that realization. If I go home, I go home, I'm not dying. And you live another day and you take on another show. challenge. Yes, that's right. Even in real life, you live another day and you take on another challenge. You have been very honest about your experience in the culinary world. And one of the things that you've been honest about is working in a space where you were surrounded by people who were paid more than you. And I know that that's a sensitive subject that we don't talk about politics and money, but I actually appreciate that you were willing to talk about that. Because you learn some lessons about having to stand up for yourself, but also held a mirror up to

the industry to say, how did you allow this to happen? Why was this okay? When I was on the two, there was the point in time that I realized I was getting paid in a week but the guys were getting paid in a day. So I was working five times as long to get the same payment. And the reason I knew that is because they told me. And sorry, to interrupt, but they told you that you were being underpaid or they just told you how much they were paid and you figured out that you were underpaid because it was two different things. That part. They told us how much they were being,

come on, come correct, yes. They told me how much they were being paid and then I said how much I was being paid. They were like, what? Yes, that part. And there were a lot of other things at the show.

I mean, the producers were like, oh, the guys are so much better than you are. So being on the chew was really, it was really tough. The first three years I thought I was going to get fired. And I remember Gladys Knight coming on the show. And I was like, oh, my God, Gladys Knight.

I grew up listening to Gladys Knight. She's from the South. Oh, my God. And generally, we were always paired with someone we could connect to, somebody who was part of our story or that we could relate to. I mean, I'm the only black person on the cast. I'm a female. I'm from this generation who will love the woman who's saying Midnight Trainers.

Georgia. Okay. But I didn't get to cook with her. And Michael cooked with her, Michael Simon, and then they made, I think a smothered pork chop or smothered chicken. And I was like, oh, my God, I can't believe it. And so I called this meeting after being told the guys are better and then this thing happened, I called a meeting. Because I think at this point, I'm like, you know what? Nobody's ever died here. At that point, you might be thinking, not yet. Okay, right. So I called this meeting and I said, Daphne, you should come.

And so we were going back and forth and talking to the executives. There were three executives there. And I said, if there was a reason that you actually didn't think that I would want to cook with Gladys Knight, that is your report card and you fail. If there was a reason that I didn't cook with her and you didn't tell me so that I could actually actually get better, that is your report card and you failed. And so, I mean, I was saying everything that I needed to say, because I really thought that I might be fired after this. And I didn't want to go home and say, oh, I wish I'd said this. I wish I'd said that. I'm like, I'm going to be completely killer. So my bucket of fuck has got real big. I was just, I don't, I don't, I don't really,

I mean, you know, but the executives, Gordon Elliott was like, okay, you're ready to get to work. And I think I needed to have that moment, just like I had on Top Chef, like I have nothing to lose, but to say what is on my mind and to do the thing. And a lot of times, we don't do that for ourselves. We lead with fear. We actually will put up with so much more than we should, but we've never tested. and I'm not saying in a way that is head-shaking and defensive and all of that. I'm saying in a way that is true and honest and saying what you really need to say with respect. So, yeah, I did that. And then after that, I started, I was better because I was fine.

My prayer every single day on the two was my authenticity. And I was the only one who could find that, you know. I love that you tell that story because somebody needs to be. needed to hear it. There's somebody who's in that position right now who will listen to this, who will watch this, and who maybe will approach their own workplace or their own situation wherever it happens to be a little bit different, thanks to you. So thank you for sharing that. And you moved on to other great things, other adventures, new books, new opportunities, awards, you know, that have come your way. Congratulations.

Thank you. And the gift that you will give your family. I loved what you said that making a beautiful meal for your family at the holidays is the gift that you cannot buy. I'm going to be honest with you. It was a message I needed to hear because Christmas is hard. You know, I sometimes struggle with finding the joy in Christmas because the to-do list is so long, right? and the expectation that you will provide a delicious Christmas, a bountiful Christmas, a perfect Christmas, a Christmas that is, you know, where everything is well decorated and put it in its place.

And it sometimes is hard to do that and find the joy in it. And so remembering that this is why you're doing it. It's not for show. It's because you're giving people, you're adding to the memory bank, you're adding to the family, legacy, you're providing, and I love that, the gift that cannot be bought. That is more valuable than anything that will be under the tree, that anything that you will find at them all is just coming together and coming together through food. And so we always gift our listeners with a recipe. And it sounds like the recipe that you want to share, you mentioned, your grandmother's five

flavor pound cake is something that will be on your holiday table this year. Can you tell us about it? What are the five flavors? Yes. So the five flavors are vanilla, almond, coconut, lemon, and rum. And one thing that I have changed about this cake, and I bake it in a two pan. Not a bun pan, yes, a two pan. So it's a little higher. And also, I put it in a cold oven. So the oven is not preheated. It's a very thick batter, very silky, very thick.

And I put the pan in the oven and then I turn it on 325. It bakes in like 90 to 100 minutes. It's a slow baking cake and the crumb is tight and tender. And it seems like it wouldn't work. But the thing is you don't want that blast of heat to let it rise and then it gets dry around the edges. I found this in some old, old recipe that I then took that technique and applied it to my grandmother's cake, and it works beautifully. So it is moist. It gets better as it sits. If you wrap it up and all of those flavors meld, it is so good and it's so crunchy on the tops and the edges and just very tender inside.

and if you like my grandma that you will take that and have it with boiled custard or creme and glaze. Oh, oh, oh. I was going to ask if you put a glaze on top of it, but instead you have it with the custard or the creme and glaze. Does the coconut add to the density, and is that one of the reasons why you wanted to cook slowly? No, I mean, it's an extract. So it doesn't. It just has a lot of eggs, a lot of flour. It's a dense cake.

So when you think about a pound cake, it's almost a pound of flour, a pound of sugar, a pound of butter, right? It actually is almost like five ingredients. When I said five ingredients, you're right. It's only a few ingredients in a pound cake. And then it's the extract. So it's the extract of the rum, the extract of the lemon, the extra of the coconut. Could you use real rum? Yeah.

Yeah. I usually use real rum because I don't like the taste of imitation rum. So I use real rum. You can do, I do the coconut extract. If it's not too much, I do it. All the others are extracts. How do you serve it? Your grandmother would have it with custard or cremanglays.

How are you serving it? One of two ways. Sometimes I put a lemon glaze on it. You mentioned the glaze. Sometimes I'll do a lemon glaze. Sometimes I will do a caramel sauce. I will turn it into a caramel cake. For the most part, my family likes it plain.

because my mother just wants it plain and any other sauces will be on the side. And so that's how people eat it. I love it sometimes toasted in a pan with ice cream. Come on. What? See, that's, I love pound cake. And so when you said pound cake, even though we've had, we've had pound cake recipes from other guests, Dr. Sharon Malone gave us her mother's pound cake recipe.

I love Sharon. Isn't she the best? Jennifer Hudson gave us her grandmother. because like you, her grandmother's kitchen was where the magic happened, and she gave us her grandmother's pound cake recipe, which has sour cream in it. And I don't think you could have too many pound cake recipes. So I was glad that you brought another one to the party. I love pound cake.

And one of the ways I love pound cake is the next day in a heavy skillet with a lot of butter, put the pound cake in the skillet, and then while it's kind of crisping up and browning a little bit, because it's already brown on the top, but then you get the brown on the wide edge. and then while you're doing that, you macerate some fruit. You just take some berries and, you know, and then take it off and on that crisp side and then put the fruit on top of it and then you just pour yourself a cup of tea. That's happiness.

I love it. And it's almost like a shortcake type vibe. Yeah, yeah, love pound cake. And I've loved talking to you. Same. I love this. Thank you. You know, I want to say, I want to say one thing that, you know, it's been like 18 years since Top Chef.

And the thing is, I love interviews where people have had a different take and perspective on my story. And I appreciate you saying making the connection to Top Chef and to my days. Like the way that I judged to when I was a kid and being tall. And I appreciate that because I'm going to take that away. I'm going to sit with it. And I'm going to, I may learn something else about myself. So that makes it one of the best interviews when I learn a little nugget about myself. So I appreciate that.

Thank you. I hope we get to cook together one day. I mean, I feel like I cook with you because you're on my shelf. And I love your cookbooks and I use your cookbooks and my kids love your cookbooks. but one day when we can actually be in a space and cook hip to hip. Or you're so much taller than me, hip to shoulder maybe. Well, next year, I'm doing a baking book. It comes out next year and it's sweet and savory.

So we should plan it. I would love that. Okay. Count me in. Count me in. I knew I was going to love that conversation. I loved it even more than I thought I would. Carla is special. And I love that she shared her wisdom.

And I love that we learned a little bit about her origin story. and the nugget that I'm going to take away from this is the idea that cooking for the people you love is a gift that cannot be purchased. It's more valuable than anything you might buy, anything you might find in a retail establishment. And I am going to bring the spirit of that statement into my holiday season. And I hope that you are able to do the same thing. If you want to try the five-flavor pound cake, you can find all the recipes from all the previous episodes at Your Mama's Kitchen.com. and notes on some of the recipes. So I hope you'll head there.

I'm going to try that pound cake, and it sounds delicious, and I might even have it with a little cremanglazz or custard or I don't know how I'm going to have it, but I know I'm going to try it, and it's going to be good. Thank you for being with us.

I hope your holidays are bountiful in all of the best ways. Happy holidays. Merry, happy, everything.