Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - How Heritage Becomes Flavor with Marcus Samuelsson

Episode Date: October 13, 2026

Chef Marcus Samuelsson joins Your Mama’s Kitchen to reflect on how his Ethiopian roots and Swedish upbringing shaped his relationship with food, culture, and home. He shares how his personal experiences inform his approach to hospitality at Red Rooster, where he’s made it his mission to ensure everyone feels welcome, represented, and like they belong at the table. Marcus also discusses his upcoming book, Back to Green: Rediscovering a World of Delicious, Healthy Eating, arriving October 20, 2026. The book explores plant-forward cooking traditions from around the world, celebrating the ingredients, cultures, and stories that connect us through food. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Food has become, for me, the tool that I can always go back to and help me explain myself in the best way. My sweet, European dishes truly make sense to me. And sometimes I understand that only makes sense to me. But as long as they're delicious, I can share them with the world. Hello, hello, good people. Welcome to Your Mama's Kitchen. I'm Michelle Norris. And this is a show where we explore.

how people are shaped as adults by the kitchens that they grow up in as kids. And I have a very special guest today. I'm joined by Marcus Samuelson. He knows his way around the kitchen. We're going to talk about the kitchens of his youth. And we're going to talk about the kitchens that he runs at restaurants that are extremely popular and wildly successful. Marcus, thanks for being with us.

Thank you for having, Michelle. Excited to be here and talk mama stuff. And we're going to learn a little bit about where you're going to be. you come from and how you've been influenced by the kitchens of your youth. And I want to begin, I'm going to go to Europe first. We're going to eventually go to Africa. We're going to work our way backward. You were raised in Sweden. And it sounds like you were influenced by two kitchens there, your mama's kitchen and your grandma Helga's kitchen. Can you describe them for me? Absolutely. I would say, I'm going to start with the queen, queen Helga. She made everything

from scratch. So my sense of taste was really shaped by her, right? An aesthetic, like those meatballs could be in different shapes, and it wasn't always, it was never with the recipe. It was like whatever scraps she had. It could be lamb, chicken, or pork, you know, combined. The mashed potato was never mashed potato. It was like carrots, apples, a little bit of potatoes, maybe some parsnette. So her kitchen, she was retired by the time that we, when we came. So her days were just cooking, pickling, or serving, getting ready to store stuff in the basement. And that was our jobs. Me and my two sisters, like run up and down, putting lingam berries in 1984, label it, putting it down.

And we stored a lot of food because back then it was, most sweets lived. under this reality that the Russians might come. But it was all cooked and prepared by my grandmother, Helga, on my mother's side. And she was an amazing cook. So we should just explain something there because you said you, and she was retired by the time you came along. You were adopted by a family in Sweden.

And you and your sister were adopted and into a family that already had one daughter. So there were three of you. And it sounds like your grandmother still had sort of a, World War II mentality that really influenced how she lived. My grandparents on both sides came from, particularly my mother's side, came from extreme poverty. And to think about Sweden was extremely poor pre-Second World War and then built up as middle

class, basically post-second World War. So my grandfather was unemployed for a long time. I worked in a factory. And my grandmother on my mom's side, she was a democracy. domestic. So her mentality was definitely their mentality. It was like no waste. They were foraging, not because it was a hip thing to do. They were foraging because it was free food. You know, they were pickling and preserve because that's what you did. You didn't waste. They were using a compost, not, you know, that they were recycling before these were terms. She was cooking

nose to tail, farm to table way before that ever became a term. She would have laughed at these terms today because that's just what you did. So that was your grandmother's kitchen. Tell me about the kitchen that you were in almost, that you were in most of the time, the everyday kitchen, your family's house. You know, my mom, we grew up in late 70s, early 80s, and my mom wanted to be a modern

mom. She worked part-time. I remember when she got a micro-o-o-o-o-oven and she was modern, right? In her way of being modern. So, you know, my grandmother's meatballs with beautiful rolled meatballs, when my mom's meatball was maybe like one big meat patty in the skillet with a note to my older sister, cut them up and make sure they get evenly distributed with some roasted potatoes on the side, right? Figure it out. You know, mama got things to do. So I love my mom. Like my mother gave me. So gave us all three so much confident, arrogant,

confident leaving the house, sense of style, all of the things. But for cooking, it was my grandmother. Yeah. The only dish I think my grandmother would have lost, you know, a Samlinson top chef race, would have been spaghetti bolognese, which wasn't really spaghetti bolognese for my mom, but it was like their version of spaghetti. And what was that?

I mean, mom took these, you know, yesterday's meatballs, right? So, over-cooked. Maybe she's put some garlic in, canned tomatoes, overcooked, non-al dente spaghetti. And then in the end, she added some frozen peas to it. And I always liked that pop that the piece gave, you know what I mean? Can we just take a moment to talk about Swedish meatballs? Because when people think of meatballs, I usually think of Italian meatballs. But Swedish meatballs are altogether different.

Yeah, I mean, our Swedish meatballs, most of the time are pork-based. There's a gravy that stems out of them, like either chicken stock or some type of stock. And then you add in, it's a real thick gravy that you're also adding pickle juice, maybe some chopped pickles to add in acidity. And then most of the time served with mashed potatoes. The best thing that we had in Swedish food was our seafood, right? of great access to cold, clear waters. And our game meats, like venison, elk, et cetera.

So very unique culinary history. And when I came to the States, it was really my job to put that in the map in America. So when we ask all of our guests, the central question, that's how we always begin the episodes, tell me about your mom's kitchen. And in your case, your mind can go lots of different places. You have your mom's kitchen. You have your grandma Helga's kitchen. What do you remember of the kitchen in Africa?

I mean, these are memories that are truly given to me, right? My age is very vague. I was somewhere between 18 months and three, two and a half years. But my sister was five, so she had much better memories than me. So she's your living memory. Yeah, but then also I've been back many, many times. I've been back to the hut that I was born in. I was back, you know, where we live.

So I know that traditional hut set up very often. There's two small huts in your compound and basically the size of an eight-foot table in a restaurant, like eight, you know, eight-top or something like that. And you're cooking very often outside on life, fire. You have dried food, dry chickpea flour, Teth, which is this grain that you make in Jera. A lot of the food is fermented, whether it's hung from the ceiling, right?

Dried meat hung from the ceiling with, let's say, spices and maybe some salt and sugar, dried flour, so you can easily with a little bit of a water, just boil a simple porridge. And it's extremely modest. It's a vegetarian-based cuisine that are made. major holidays, you are eating meat. So beets, lentils, chickpeas are part of that everyday cooking. Did your sister help fill in those memories for you over time? Did that happen as you got older?

I mean, when did you feel comfortable actually exploring that world and learning more about the kitchen of your youth and your homeland? Yeah, my sister has been a massive influence on us. seeking up our finding our birth father, always been the one sharing with me stories from Ethiopia. And, you know, adoption is extremely complex and layered, not just that we're adopted from the warmest country in the world to the coldest country in the world,

but also spirituality, race, all of those different things. And culture, it's very, very different. very different. And, but it's almost, you live this, I would say adoption is kind of like a shadow life. You have these two shadows and they shouldn't, you know, one is Marcus Amerson and one is Casano's a guy. They should never be too far apart from each other. They need to be quite close to each other. That's when we're in the best harmony. And in many ways, you also live culturally your life very often backwards because I, you, didn't know that much about my Ethiopian heritage and as I get into my mid-teens and early

20s I saw you know I started to seek that out and the complete picture of who you are really starts developing your mid-20 for me in my mid-20s my early 30s and versus another family another person these basic things that everyone the majority of people knows is they they know the eyes of their mother, they know their mother's smile there, they know these basic fundamental things that very often as an adopted child you don't know. Why am I laughing at this? Or what is my sense of humor? What is the path and the history in your family?

Do you have cancer in a family? All these things that you just don't know. Did your family try to fill in those gaps for you? Yes, I did. And I think part of it was just kids. We were not that interested. We just wanted to be a normal-Swedish kids and fit in, you know. And then eventually, like I said, in my later teens, in the middle 20s,

you started to go back and rediscovered. Transracial adoption, transnational adoption, is really common now, less so when you and your sister were adopted. So there weren't a lot of role models. There wasn't a rule book or a playbook for that. How did your family navigate that to make sure that you could fit on? that you did feel comfortable, that you in some way were able to hold on to some tendrils of your culture. My parents, I cannot think Leonard and Anne-Marie enough. I mean, music was probably the biggest.

So, like, we were raised in black music, African music and African-American music. Like Bob Marley's TV, and these were LPs, right? you turn them. It was also English class, you know what I mean? And it was also image class, style class, because when you open an LP and you look at a prince or a Mike or a Stevie and a Bob Marley, there's aesthetic.

Blackness is not monolithic, right? You know, looking at your dad's Miles Stavius records are very different than the Prince record, but yet there's something similar, right? Their sense of cool and style and different. and then hip-hop was, you know, when that came, was very big for me. And records was a way for me to escape and learn and be part of something else, you know. So I would say they gave us a lot through music.

You know, on the other hand, you know, my mom had to learn how to take care of black hair. That wasn't easy. Every Sunday, they used to be like, oh, all of these screaming sounds coming out from the bathroom. My two sisters were, like, screaming at my mom, and my mom tried to fix the hair with, like, an eight-year-old essence and ebony in one hand and try to fix their hair.

And it's like, I was like, my dad was like, go as far as way you can from this. You do not want to be here right now. And it was horrible. And, like, dinner on Sunday nights, it was quiet because my sisters was so mad at mom, and she did her best. And it was a mess, you know.

Where were you getting black hair care products in Sweden? Oh, it's all of these, like, subcultures. So my dad traveled a lot internationally. And if my mom heard that anyone that we knew went to London on a vacation or a trip, they had to go back and find black hair products. I mean, just London itself, like in the 70s or the 80s, then you have to go, like, to Brixton or, like, you know what I mean? She's like, do not come over to the same.

house unless you have these products. You know, these poor optus have to go and get it, you know. When you moved to Sweden, how long was it before you had Ethiopian food again? You know, my mom brought us every year, once a year there was this adoption center event where adopted kids from all over in India, could be China, could be Korea and Ethiopia. Parents brought their kids. and there was always food from these places. And so we had Ethiopian food there.

As I got older, there was one Ethiopian restaurant in Stockholm. So that was a track, maybe 11, 12 years old with my parents. But I didn't really develop my full understanding of Ethiopian food until I came to the States and could go to Washington, D.C. a lot, and go to Adams Morgan and being in New York where there was like three or four, Ethiopian restaurants. You know, and that's the thing with Ethiopian food, out of all the African nations, I would say Ethiopian food has done its best by having multiple Ethiopian restaurants

in major American cities going back to the 80s, you know. Maybe Moroccan would be second, but that distinct meal within Jera, you eat with your hands, anyone has ever had Ethiopian food, will remember that. Not just the food, but the entire experience. Yes, experience. Right. Absolutely. You know, when you're learning about Ethiopian food and Ethiopian culture, you are going by memory. And I imagine as someone who's trying to create a flavor profile, you have to rely. You know, many of us when we talk about cooking, we're remembering our grandmother's hands.

We're remembering the sizzle in the kitchen. You have to go by memory and do a lot of forensic. to sort of find that. How did you do that to make sure that that was eventually part of your repertoire as a chef? You know, I've talked to other adopted kids, not just for Ethiopian adopted kids,

but there's, when I eat, when I tasted batterer for the first time, the spice plan that is really the core of Ethiopian cookie, one of the core. I loved it right away. You know, my cousins are also adopted from Korea. When they had kimchi for the first time, they loved it right away.

So this is sort of universal thing that have talked to other adopted kids when they have something that is the core from their first country, they respond to it right away. And, you know, in my new cookbook, Back to Green, I talk to,

talk, Jamila and I really talk a lot about eating based on a spiritual compass. Right. And Ethiopia has this clear spiritual compass of fasting days. And when I'm in Ethiopia, I follow those. And it's not strength to me at all. It's like what you do when you're there. There's so many things that I've gotten from Ethiopia culture that I did not grow up with that I can quickly adapt to. I'm always surprised how quickly when I mean ideas or in the countryside, I can just go back to the Ethiopian calendar of eating. And it's like I didn't miss a beat.

You mentioned Jamila. We should give her a shout out. She is the co-author of your latest book, Jamila Robinson, who is the editor-in-chief of Bonapete. And amazing to work with an incredible collaborator. And an amazing woman. Yes. And she wrote back to Green with you.

I want to talk a little bit about your mother because what an amazing woman. your journey to safety in Ethiopia is the it's epic it's like Lawrence of Arabia you were so young that she had to carry you for 75 miles her journey her journey is I can't even put it into words right she has tuberculosis so do so do my sister. So she's clearly weakened by this. I mean, TB hits your lungs and you are not strong, you know. And she had to plan it for weeks because what are we going to eat on that? You know, she has two kids, probably me on her back. So, you know, I didn't weigh a lot, but like still there's something else. Then she has to carry dried food, like dried injera, dried shiro shiard flour.

she probably walked, maybe hitched on the bus. Who knows how she got there. And not only did she get to the Capitol, then she had to find a hospital where she could, you know, take herself in, but also drop also. So it's a massive journey. And clearly she gave everything,

and she should not survive. But when I'm in Ethiopia and I see a young woman with two kids, I always look at it like, wow, that's Anna walking down the street with two kids. I read something that really touched me, Marcus, that you have memories but you don't actually have a picture of her. No, no picture. Like many adopted kids, you have to be ready in a way that if you're going to go there and actually found out

whatever there is, you have to be mentally ready. And it's never, ever, the way you were told or the way it thinks it's going to affect you, it's going to affect you. It's a lifelong thing. So if you're not ready to do it, I always said don't do it. What do you do to continue to prepare yourself for that? Because I imagine it must wash over you every time you go back. And maybe every time you visit an Ethiopian community in Washington, D.C. or Minneapolis or Columbus, where there are, you know, or large communities.

Well, I mean, I try to enter it through gratitude, right, that my mother did not do this in vain. We did survive and live the fullest lives. that me and my sister can live and make sure her story will never be forgotten. And I think that joy living fully your life and sharing a story that is not unique.

There are many stories like that. But it's our story. I think it gives a sense of strength to my kids as well. You know, we come from this special place and we connect it to three plays. them and me, Harlem, Sweden, and Ethiopia. And they're very random and maybe on the map does not make sense.

But I would even argue that all of us have those two or three places. Maybe not as clear out defined as my life, but you know, you will always have your roots in Minneapolis and now you live in D.C. and you know there's, we all have two to three places where you're where we feel this connection to that only sits dear to us. And you're going to explain it, maybe not the first time you meet someone, but in a deeper conversation, it's going to come out. I truly believe that geography sits inside us.

It sits inside our bones. It sits inside our soul. It sits inside our spirit. And in some cases, whether you visited that place or not, it is still there. I think this might sound a little bit patent saying it, but I'm going to say it anyway. I think many would argue that the best of your mother lives on in you. I know a lot of my strengths come from both my birth parents. I was fortunate enough to meet my father, and we had 15 years together.

I'm very grateful for that. And he lived a very he was a farmer and a priest and lived a very different life, but also a very strong life. and he was able to rebuild his family, start again. So I know there's inner strength there. And yes, your geography lives inside of you. And I would particularly say for people of color, because you're always going to be put in situations

where other people is going to define or remind you of that. So, yes, geography definitely lives inside you. And food is often the way that we hold on to that. Food has become, for me, the tool that I can always go back to and help me explain myself in the best way, right? Like if I would be a singer, maybe would you express through that? But food has really been, you know, my sweet European dishes truly make sense to me.

And sometimes I understand that only makes sense to me. But as long as they're delicious, I can share them with the world. but they fully make sense to me. And that's important. I love that sweet, opium dishes. It's fantastic. How did you decide firmly and fully to follow a pathway toward food and culinary skills? Because it sounds like music was also tapping on your other shoulder.

I think, I mean, I grew up with a lot of activities called cooking. with my grandmother, but also fishing with my uncles. I was around food from a very early age. You know, when you grew up in a fishing village in the summertime, you're up early, you're up at 6 o'clock, and you're helping your uncles getting the boat ready or fixing the net, or that's also you wait to get coins, right, money. So, like, once you're done fishing, you have to sell it,

and they give you five, six fishes, and that's your spending money for one day or two, right? You got $20 as a 10-year-old kid. You never ask your parents for money. You know, you have your own little substack of economy. You're going, hustle going, right? But then also, I would say sports gave me a lot. Work ethic, understanding team sport.

And taking that into weekend jobs in the kitchen in Gothenburg, it was very similar. High adrenaline rush, us against them. And I clearly was good at something that, you know, I didn't even know I was good at it. It was just something I did, you know, butchering fish at 12, 13, 14 years old because I've done it with my uncles

or knowing how to, you know, make meatballs because I've done it with my grandmother. So I got rewarded right away, and I really loved that. But my father was a geologist and it's like, if you're going to do this as a job, this is very different. He was a strategist, right? He came from a fishing village to become a geologist and he had to break ways with his family.

they were very upset with him. Why would you lead to boat? We have our own company. Why would you leave here to go to the city, to get on a city job? It was not a popular choice from his family. But he's like, if you're passionate about this, I will help you set up the strategy,

but I don't know anything about culinary. But he was like, if you want to go to France, an internship, starship, you're going to go to France last. You don't speak French. You don't have a lot of skills yet. So I worked in Gothenburg And anytime an international job came up

I put my name into the list and I got it And I went to Switzerland where they spoke German and French Not two years to teach myself French and German I could do that And you know But I didn't do by myself I had mentors and then my parents backing in terms of support system

And my grandmother's backing You know, we had basically one phone call was on Sundays, and most of those times I actually called my grandmother and expressed the food that we were doing. I was telling her, like, did you know there's yellow beads? She's like, no, I don't, there's no yellow bead. Do you know that there's like purple carrot? Well, save me a purple carrot.

And like, this was like minute by minute that we were explaining what we were doing. You know, what is a truffle? She asked me about a truffle. She thought a truffle was a chocolate piece. And I was like, no, this mushroom, like things that she couldn't even relate to. And so I always had that backbone support.

How did you survive the yes chef culture? I mean, it seems that it's really tough. And is it as tough as, you know, film and television makes it, makes it out to be? It seems like they're almost not trying to encourage people to stay in the business that they're trying to chase them out. I mean, there's two paths here, right? There's the yes chef culture. and then there's a blackness of it all,

which adds another layer and level to it, right? Because in all these kitchens, I was definitely the only one. And, you know, race was definitely in the earlier part of my place as part of the conversation. And you're dealing with young leaders. If I was 18, my boss was 23 and his boss was 27, right? and these were incredible skilled people in cooking, but they were not worldly,

and they'd never gone to one course of management of anything, right? And they came up in abusive kitchen. So for me, I learned a ton from these French masters and French and German chefs. They were incredible chefs. But I also learned what not to do. I never saw women in leadership position and I never saw people of color.

So for me, it was very easy. When I get on, the promise I made for me, it was like, I'm going to hire women and I'm going to hire chefs of color. So I always, for me, it's like, I knew that being black in this very white male dominated space added another level to the whole dynamic.

But it's also something that I was raised around and my parents had really taught me. That's a whole other conversation, but I was taught how to navigate through that. What did they teach you? Because someone might need to hear that. I mean, Michelle, it's just a different time. And my father could say to me,

if there's a fighting school, you're going to get lame. Even if it happens when you're having class, how do you prepare yourself? And I'm like 10, 11, 12. I'm like, I don't know. And it's like, well, think about it. Get back to me tomorrow and think about it. And sometimes I didn't have the answer.

But he was right. I did get blamed. Right? And then eventually after you get called to the principal, the teacher stepped in. It's like Marcus was in class. But you are pulled out of class. You're doing that walk of shame.

And then you're getting back into class. And of course your classmates are the just kids same age. So you still got to walk back. And you're totally embarrassed. and your whole autonomy of that next... I mean, that's the only thing the kid's going to talk about for the next two, three days. And then another situation happens.

Do you know what I mean? And eventually it's your fault, you know? So I was raised around a lot. It was a lot. It sounds like your father understood. Oh, no, no, of course. That the hill was going to be steeper than you, which is interesting because a lot of people

have a more colorblind approach, you know, think that they can sort of flatten that curve just through love and sheer will, and it sounded like he was pragmatic. I mean, he had traveled all over the world. My father was a geologist that had clients in Houston, was in states a lot, traveled to Japan. He knew that the world outside our middle-class safe haven was not nice, but sometimes you didn't have to go outside that world. for not to be nice. But he's like, I'm prepping excellence. And it's different.

So those classroom experiences, those talks from your father, the expectations that people had of you, which were sometimes lower than they should have been or oftentimes incorrect, that prepared you for that yes, chef world that you experienced when you later went on to France and other places?

I would say the toughest critic the toughest chef I've ever had is my mother the person I feared in my childhood was my mother she had the highest standard higher standard than the chefs

of everything and that's the toughest critic to please and just to get out of the house there's a certain level of excellence you have to have and otherwise you didn't get out of the house so it prepared me for, I used to go up and say when I worked in these places, you can't fire me because, you know, I can't go home to mom and say I got fired.

And chef was like, I decided when I fired anyone in here. Wait, what were you afraid of? It's so interesting because you said your mom didn't, she was too busy. Yeah, but she didn't cook a lot, but she was your toughest critic. She was very tough on us in a way that she prepared. They prepared us that the world is not going to be easy outside of this home. So, you know, in order to leave here, you need a certain level of standard of excellence. And it was, it was, it gave me courage also.

It gave me a lot of, I knew once I left that I would deliver a certain level of excellence. Listen, I was in, to get a scholarship when that got posted, I knew I would get it. Because number two, it doesn't give you a secondary scholarship. scholarship. I knew when my other roommates or classmates when I was training in Switzerland and France and Japan when they were tapping out, I'm like,

you're tapping out at this? It was like the level what I had to go through was I was prepped. So we talked fastly about this, but I worked in Switzerland when I had to learn German and French. Think about that. That's like

a hurdle. Right there. And you have to hang in one of the best kitchens in the world. But that was just, take out your prints cassettes, here is a German cassette, here's a French cassette. Get back to me when you're done. Done. This is what you want to do.

That's what I'm saying. The training was harder at home than getting there. Because once I got there, I loved food, and I could teach myself these things. How did you deal with the stress? It was difficult. It was difficult. I threw up every day.

Really? Yeah, it was bad. It was really bad. I don't want anyone to go through it. You know, you're 21, 22. You're totally by yourself. You've got to navigate. It's not good. Not good. Was it because someone was yelling at you because you were just afraid of failure? What was it that was eating away at your stomach lining? All of the above. I mean, yelling, we would get yelled at every day. So that was not just, it was just the level that people were speaking at, right? It was just, good morning, was screamed at. You know. So that was, that didn't bother me. me like they scream at every and there were equal opportunities that screamed at everybody they just didn't scream at me only

they screamed at everybody all the time but you cannot make mistakes there was just not and if you made mistakes you were cut and no room for air every spring there was 60 commies 60 kids majority boys and by August there were 20 left

to 40 were cut and some of them cut themselves to leave right just because it was too stressful. So it was not. It wasn't there. It was too much. It was a lot.

You know, I've gotten to know a lot of chefs in my lifetime, particularly hosting this show. And one of the things that they say that they're always looking for when they're hiring, when they're putting their team together, is someone who's managed to hold on to joy, even though they've gone through that process. And you clearly have. I mean, when I think of you, Marcus, I think of that big smile of yours.

You were able to hold onto your joy. You have to. You have to, I came out of that and decided I will never build kitchens like that. I'm going to hold on to the excellence that these incredible craft people gave me, but I also have to enter it in a different way. Like when we're prepping, we can't play music. I want to build a camaraderie in a different way. And I would also say that today the working environments are much better And it's because of people of color And it's because of women are in leaderships Because the pool is larger

It reflects much more how America eats And American last 20 years Have had a lot to do with how the whole culinary world opened up And so it's been for the better Still not a lot of women, why is that? It's getting much, much better. I mean, in our restaurant of Mar, we, you know, all our leadership positions are held by women of color.

Every time there's a leader position, you have to interview more women going extra way. And if we have 15 restaurants, nine are led by women of color, both in the general manager of front of the house and the back of the house. So it's possible. Definitely possible.

What is your happiest kitchen memory? I have so many good memories in the kitchen. And which kitchen is it in? Oh, many. I mean, cooking with Miss Leah Chase in Orleans. Oh. In her kitchen. Oh, we loved her.

Yeah. Being with the late Charlie Trotter in his kitchen in Chicago, cooking the first date dinner for Barack Obama. They called you first. Yeah. The very first one. Now that's a little bit of pressure. That's pressure.

Mama T. taught me right, so it's okay. I can tell you, actually, where she said, this is my mom in a nutshell. So you called her when you got that call? No, I did not. I called my sisters not to tell her. And I called her in three hours to go that this is happening.

Right? There's nothing mom can do now. So I called us like, okay, you're going to hear this Swedish press tomorrow. I'm at the White House. I'm cooking this dinner. And I just want you to know about it. So you hear it from me first. This is my mom.

She said, oh boy, your dad would not approve. You know, his name, you're carrying his name. It means a lot. If you leave now, I know it's bad if you leave right now. But it's better to leave right now than that you poison the president of United States. That's my mom in an nutshell. I said, thank you very much for the encouragement. Click, I got to go.

That's my mom in a nutshell. That's my mom in a nutshell. I loved her so much. She was joking, right? No. Absolutely. I wish she was joking. Dead serious.

What did you do when you put down the phone? My dad had been dead at that point for a good 15 years. I'm like, you bring a dad into this? I have nothing to do with it. And she's like, I'm Johnson. She's like, I have another name. But your father would not be, the village, where he comes from, would not be happy. She was worried you were going to poison the president.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not good. Well, it all went fine. It went fine. I mean, there were other issues at that first-day dinner. You can go back to the news and read about those. But the food was great. Yeah, the food was great.

It's great. That's my mom. Yeah. Loved her. We had a lot of fun. A lot of joy. A lot of joy. It was stern, but we had a lot of fun, a lot of fun.

So when I asked about your favorite memory, there are too many to name just one. I mean, I would say the biggest joy I've had is to stay in business in New York City for 30 years. You're looking at something, speaking to someone that came to this country with 300 bucks, and I just wanted to add value in any kitchen. And I was told that I would never be able to achieve my dream.

I'm opening a restaurant in Europe. So I came to America specifically for that. So when that's your energy and promise, then you're always going to be energized and show gratitude towards the moment you're in. And I've been through many moments when that's taken away, right? When fine dining of food don't matter in the same way, whether that's post-9-11 or in the pandemic,

All these things that we take for granted, all of a sudden just goes, and it's those moments where you really double down on your industry, the love you have for the people. And I wouldn't know myself about that food. I would not. But one of the things that is evident in your restaurants is a sense of the joy that I mentioned, but also welcome. They don't feel like restaurants.

They almost feel like you're entering someone's home. Yeah. And a lot of that come from places of pain, to be honest. That's a black person. Every black person, and I hate to say that even young people, because it shouldn't be, have thought about when they go to a restaurant, it hits us differently. Yeah. There are questions that we ask ourselves. That for me, I always say it's my job in my restaurant to erase those questions.

Will I be the only one? Will they notice me when I walk in? will there be another black server? Isn't that anyone in the other customers? How should I dress? I have to dress a little bit better. That almost traumatic experience that most people of color

don't even, that doesn't have to enter. And this is a conversation that 2006 that this, for me, it was like with Red Rooster and all the rest, I was like, no, no, no, no. This is a non-issue. We're going to make this a non-issue. We're going to look up when customers coming. We're going to say hi.

We're going to welcome them. We're going to make sure that any person of color feels like, yes, you're at the right place. And that the team here are a reflection of the city you're in or the neighborhood you're in. Sometimes traumatic experiences can be a jump-off point, but then it's also up to us. What do we do with them? And I feel always so grateful that I've had food, hospitality, to actually convert those experiences into something positive, right? And a lot of people don't have those opportunities. So I think that is why I love hospitality so much.

And we're an imperfect bunch, but we, most people in hospitality are good people. And I feel like anyone, any job that you will ever have after, because I realize sometimes it's a bridge job, sometimes not, go through hospitality first and learn how to tackle a yes or a no, or a challenging situation. And then the social skills you build on that can take you to any level, whatever you want to do. It's clear the hospitality is not second to the food. But we always get a recipe from every single one of our guests. And we include it on the website and it's part of the collection and I road test all the recipes. And many of our listeners will road test them in their kitchens wherever there is that they happen to live. What recipe are you sharing with us?

Oh, my God. It's called Mama's Kitchen. Well, I will be sharing something from back to green. Okay, I've got it right here. Yeah. And it tells a little bit about our story. But growing up on the water, we have a steamed bass recipe. And when you steam a fish, you do so little to the fish.

Yeah. So it needs to be the freshest fish possible. In this steamed fish, it's very simple. You slice ginger, sliced garlic. I actually wrapped this in banana leaf, but you can. You don't have to wrap it. But steaming fish is one of the purest way, lightest, most delicious way. And with that, I would say to you, order when you buy fish, get to know your fishmonger.

And on top of that, have them give you the bones as well. Because now you're going with two bags. The bones, you just rinse it, bring it to your boil, a little bit of onion and bale leaf, simmer it for 20 minutes, strain it. put it in small little sandwich bags and put it in the freezer. And now you have a stock that you can bring out any time. You want to make that ramen for your daughter on a cold day? Just starting point now to miso soup or miso ramen. It's now stock versus just water.

You know how much better that will taste? That's a pro tip. I never ask for bones at when I go to the fish shop. I never ask for that. But now I will. But back to that steamed fish, do we need a special pan? Are you using a poacher for that? No.

You can just use honestly steaming fish. It's as simplest. Perfure pan. Water. Add some leftover, you know, maybe onion or ginger in that water. Privyer pan. Put a lid on. Steam for, let's say, six minutes, turn it off.

You have the cleanest, the best tasting fish you possibly can. Do you let it sit for a while after you take it off so it continues cooking? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, six minutes for a filet of fish, it's fine. Then you can let it sit for another three minutes just to let it to kind of rest. You can pull that skin off if you don't like the skin. We can keep the skin on. And just squeeze a piece of lemon. If you want to have the easiest sauce, squeeze lemon into a little bowl, add a little soy,

add a little bit of olive oil, drizzle it on top. What are we serving this with? Oh, I mean, simple bowl of rice, maybe. coconut rice, simple bowl of rice. Okay, since it's fall, I'm thinking some roasted parsnips with that. Oh, yes. Would be delicious. Would be absolutely.

Waiting for that first frost so they have a little sweetness in them. I love that. Look at you with your, oh, that's good. And some celery tops, maybe sauteed. Elegant, you're getting fancy now, but yes. Well, no, I mean, that's not fancy. You know, when you go to the farmer's market, you see celery the way it should be served, the way it should be purchased with all the greenery on the top,

which they cut off at the grocery store, which cooks down beautifully and put the fish on top of that. I think I know what my family is going to have for dinner tonight. Oh, there you go. There you go. Absolutely. Marcus Samuelson, I have loved talking to you. Thanks so much.

Thank you so much for having me. And I can't wait to see you and your family back uptown. Thanks so much for listening. If you want to try out that steamed fish, you can find the recipe at our website. and while you're there, you can scroll through and find all the recipes from all the previous episodes. You can also tell us about your mama's kitchen if you want to. You can let us know what guests you might want to hear from.

And you can just give us notes about the show. We love to engage with our listeners and our viewers. Thanks for listening. I'm Michelle Norris. Stay bountiful.