Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - How Sarah Ahn Built a TikTok Empire From Her Mom’s Korean Kitchen

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Cookbook author and content creator Sarah Ahn—best known for “Ahnest Kitchen” on Instagram and TikTok—takes us inside her mama’s kitchen, a place you’ve likely seen on your feed! She shares her family’s incredible story of surviving the Korean War, the secret to perfect Korean fried chicken, and how her 66-year-old mother feels about her unexpected rise to social media stardom.Your Mama’s Kitchen is a production of Higher Ground.Produced by Sonia Htoon.Associate Producers are Camila Thur de Koos and Jenna Levin.Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen, Ryan Kozlowski and Roy Baum.Executive producers for Higher Ground are Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and Michele Norris.The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media. Talent booker is Angela Peluso.Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC / Sound Recording copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

This podcast is brought to you by Alloy Health. Food Network Obsessed is your podcast for all things Food Network. I'm Jamie Syer, and I talk with your favorite chefs, food influencers, and Food Network personalities. They tell me all about how they started their careers, who and what they've been influenced by, and what it's like to cook in a Food Network studio. You'll hear from stars like Alex Gornaschelli, Guy Fieri, and Bobby Flay. Listen to Food Network Obsessed wherever you get your podcasts. There's a saying in Korean, if someone has sonmat, that literally translates to hand taste.

That's basically what you're saying. When there's sonmat involved in one's cooking, you can taste the love coming out of the mom's hands. And if someone has sonmat, it means they have a talent for cooking that's energized and powered by the mother's love. Hello, hello. Welcome back to Your Mama's Kitchen. This is a place where we explore how the kitchens we grew up in as kids shaped who we became as adults. All the things that happened in the kitchen, the food, our parents, their work ethic,

their cooking style, the laughter, the arguments, the sweet treats. I'm Michelle Norris. My guest today is someone who is part culinary entrepreneur, part trailblazer, a bit of a free spirit, and you might even say a bit of a homebody. We're joined by Sarah Ahn. She works with America's Test Kitchen,

but she's also a digital creator with her own bustling platform and her huge fan base. Thousands of people tune into her TikTok and Instagram videos where she goes by honest kitchen. It's a fun play on her family name. You probably picked that up to watch videos of her mama in the kitchen making traditional homestyle Korean meals, while Sarah gracefully narrates tidbits of their family history and she shares cultural traditions. Her videos make people feel like they're right there in the kitchen with her family. She's also recently come out with her own cookbook, it's called Uma. It's beautiful. It dives even deeper into her family's history,

all the way back to post-war Korea that her grandmother lived through. She shares memories, stories, tidbits, helps us understand what the Korean kitchen looks like, gives us shopping lists, describes all the dipping sauces. It's a great cookbook and this is going to be a great conversation. Sarah, thanks so much for being with us. Hi, Michelle. I am so honored to be here.

Thank you so much. Oh, I am thrilled to for being with us. Hi, Michelle. I am so honored to be here. Thank you so much. Oh, I am thrilled to be here with you. I feel like I already know you and I've spent time in your kitchen thanks to your presence on Instagram. We always begin this show with a simple question. Tell us about your mama's kitchen. Somewhere you made a conscious choice to move back home after university. So is your mama's kitchen the one that I see

all the time? That is the one that you see all the time, our iconic, very old, but very loved kitchen. Well, for those who have not yet seen your videos, and I say not yet because if you're listening to this conversation, I imagine that you're going to run to Instagram and TikTok and take a look for yourself. But for those who have not seen it yet, can you describe that kitchen for us? It's a galley kitchen. It's very outdated. The house was built in the 1960s and it still stands as it was built. And it's the kitchen that my mom lives and breathes in. And it's

not your perfect kitchen. The counters are all lopsided. If you put a marble on there, it's going to roll in one way. But it's the kitchen that we grew up with and the kitchen that has fed us through the best of times, the worst of times when things were at peace. It's where we all went to when life just happened. And you spend a lot of time there at that kitchen table. Yes, especially when my dad comes home because my dad is a house painter. When I tell people my dad's a painter, they think he's like an artist that paints. But we are also, I don't know how to describe us, but just your ordinary Korean American

family where we work incredibly hard. And so my dad paints homes for a living externally. He paints the exterior walls and we come home every day to my dad who comes home to a fresh meal that replenishes his body every dinner. Cooked by you and your mom usually. Typically my mom. I'm still learning and she usually pushes me aside and said that's not how you do it. But the book has taught me all her tricks and tips. But my mom is still very in control of her kitchen. Yeah, that's clear. And that's as it should be, right?

Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I want to get to the book and some of the tips and the tidbits, but I think one of the reasons that people love your videos is there's a certain intimacy and that you're not in a show kitchen. Right. You know, a lot of the people who have become Instagram, TikTok superstars are in these kitchens and sometimes you wonder, does anybody really cook in that kitchen?

Because everything is so clean and pristine. It looks like you're in some sort of science lab almost. Right. Yeah. The kitchen is well loved and I've learned to love it too, especially because my mom also has a restaurant background. She used to own a restaurant. And so she also says that, you know, it's not the most perfect kitchen, but it gets the job done and I'm so grateful for it. And the people who watch our videos tell me this feels like home. This is so realistic to what many of us live through and what kitchen we have.

And they thank me often for showing the reality of life and this imperfect but perfect kitchen. Can you tell me about some of the sauces that I see to the side of the stove there? It seems like there's a whole vocabulary of little jars and bottles that probably tell a story unto itself. Yeah, those are the sauces that my mom always uses when she cooks. As you may know, the cheong, which is sauce in Korea, Korean. So this includes soy sauce, sesame oil, vinegar, and is sauce in Korea, Korean. So this includes like soy sauce, sesame oil, vinegar, and fish sauce and oyster sauce. They're just the go-to seasonings that we use to flavor

our food that my mom has by the hand so she could quickly put it in. Social media has played such a big role in your career. I mean, you were in America's Test Kitchen, which is a real feather in your cap if you work in the culinary world. But when you started to bring people into your home and share the experiences in that galley kitchen, that it really caught fire. And you have a very large following. Did your parents understand what was happening at first and how did you explain to your mom

when the first video went viral? I mean, did she understand what it means to go viral or was she like, oh wait, I don't want to go viral. That sounds like something scary and you know, diseases go viral. What are you talking about? I just wonder how she reacted to all of that. She was so confused. She's just like, I am so confused why people are watching us and what's in it for them and what they get out of it. And she still is confused to this day.

And I always explained to her, I think people just relate to our life and they like that because it's something that we don't really see that often on social media. On social media, people often want to show the extravagance and the luxury and the things that are a bit more challenging to obtain. I mean, that's probably why reality shows like keeping up with the Kardashians exists because it's a different world. And they don't see the honesty of life, of seeing a dad come home working all day. Or I talked about my brother going to medical school and funding it entirely himself and the challenges of life. They don't really see that and I share all of that.

And is she comfortable being a star of TikTok and Instagram now? Yeah, because she still doesn't perceive it that way. It's only when she gets noticed in public, sometimes people will stop her and be like, you're that person from Honest Kitchen, huh? And that's when she really realizes, oh, there are real people out in the world that do watch us. And she comes home and just being like, oh, someone noticed me today and it was so cool. So she secretly likes that. She enjoys it.

She's honored. It's gotten good to her. She's honored. Yeah. Okay. Sweet. So you're learning how to cook from your mother. But as I watch you, it looks and sounds like you're proficient. Like these lessons apparently are going quite well. I would say so because especially writing this cookbook where I got to learn it American style as well, where I had to teach my mom how to use measuring spoons, which is not part of Korean culture and much of Asian culture, but I live at home. So I'm able to witness the making of these foods every day firsthand. And as with many cuisines, Korean cuisine no less is a cuisine made by the woman.

These are traditions that have passed down from one generation to the next, primarily by women. And so, that's exactly what's happening here where I get to learn these recipes firsthand by the one and only the Korean Oma. And the Oma, explain the name of the book, the cookbook, because it has a very deep meaning to you and it speaks of the traditions and the recipes, if we could call them that, because they're not necessarily written down on recipe cards, but the traditions and the techniques being passed down from one generation to the next.

Yeah. So the title of the book, I named it Umma, which translates literally to mom. And for me, it was so evidently clear what I wanted to name the book when we first started this project. I wanted to name it Umma because I wanted to honor all the women who have shaped Korean cuisine and all the women in the past who endured so much for these cuisines to really trend these days. A lot of these foods are trending, but I think we often forget the history that they went through, which was shaped by the women. And where did your mother learn how to cook? Could you tell me about her umma?

Yes. So her umma, who I call as Harmony, that's grandma in Korean. I mean, I capture her life in the book and we cried so much when my mom was talking about it. And I even still get kind of, cried so much when my mom was talking about it. And I even still get kind of, I guess, teary-eyed talking about it because she endured so much with the Korean War and what she had to do. And she was such a fantastic cook. So much so that obviously back then, during my grandma's time, making kimchi and all these staples, they had to do it because that was the only way to get through the harsh winter months. All the women made kimchi. This wasn't something that was unique to my grandma. This is a very ingrained part of our culture, but her kimchi amongst every woman in that

town was amazed by hers. And people would line up whenever she hosted Kimjang, which is the gathering of making kimchi because they would make a lot back in the day. People would line up to get a bite of her kimchi, all the women, all the neighborhood kids and the families, because there was something so special about it. Why were they all making kimchi communally instead of each individually doing it in their own kitchen or in their own space? That's a great question. And I think it all stems down to Korea being a very collective country where they all come together during the darkest and hardest times.

And back then, when this was when Korea was very poor, the only thing that they could really afford to eat was kimchi and barley rice, not white rice. Because at that time, white rice was considered a luxury because Korea's white rice was used to address Japan's shortage of white rice. So Korea's white rice became completely depleted. And so it was always just kimchi and barley rice that they ate. And the reason why the fermentation of kimchi is so specific and so rich in history is because that is what lasted them throughout the harsh winter months.

They had to make so much for them to eat for the rest of the year and they had to make it at that time when Napa cabbage was in season and in its prime. It seems that the Korean War is not as well understood, certainly as World War II or maybe even the Vietnam War. It's that sort of in-between period that doesn't get, it's like the middle child in terms of military conflicts. And to the extent people understand it, in America, it's usually through the eyes of American servicemen.

I know this is a difficult history, but could you just tell us a little bit about the hardship that your family endured and how they managed to survive and eventually thrive and make their way to the United States? Basically, it was the Japanese occupation and the Korean War being almost back to back. And my family are particularly my mom's side, it was actually from North Korea. Not the North Korea that we associate as today because back then Korea was just one country.

They were just Northern Koreas who lived in the northern part of Korea. And what happened was when the Korean War was happening, Koreans were fleeing North Korea down to South Korea. And that's how South Korea came about and where a lot of people came from. And my grandma, she had, you know, they're going through the North Korean War and my grandma had gone to the farmer's market to make food. And while she was there, her in-laws took her two kids, which was a daughter, which is my oldest aunt that's still living today, and their newborn son. The in-laws and the kids, they took the kids

and fled to South Korea while my grandma was shopping for food. And at this time, my grandpa was in a prison camp from North Koreans. And so she came home and no one was home. She immediately felt a sense of abandonment and I don't even know the words. I described it as much as I can in the book,

just a complete loss and heartbreak where she was considered a nobody to her in-laws because they prioritized her son's wellbeing to get to South Korea, but not her. And eventually she walked down to South Korea by herself to find her kids. And she found out that her son had actually died because it was a newborn son that would have never made that journey because he needs his mom. And it was then, my mom was telling me this and she was crying so much because every time she tried to learn

more about this older brother that would have been my mom's, you know, older brother, that would have been my mom's older brother, her mom would just cry. And she never wanted to open those wounds again. And so that's all we know. My grandpa was able to escape out of the prison camp and go down to South Korea, find his family. They had two more kids, which was my mom and another daughter, which is now my aunt. And then eventually once Korea became a bit more prosperous and functional and independent, my mom obtained a job in Korea and culturally Korea just completely changed where it was starting to thrive in office culture there and education there is very rigorous. And so she came to America to pursue the American

dream with my dad. And when you talk about the journey from what we now understand to be North Korea to what we now understand to be South Korea, it's really difficult terrain. I mean, it's not like they just, you know, walked on paved roads or sidewalks. No, it's there's actually a picture in the book where you see the women, they would use their kimchi bowls. The kimchi bowls, it's a basin, it's huge to make large amounts of kimchi. They would use that to transfer things from one part to another. But there's a picture in my book where you see them walking on dirt one way and the American soldiers walking the other way.

Just a powerful picture. Yeah. And their other belongings are balanced carefully in those bowls. This really is a wonderful cookbook. If you're listening, you're going to want to see it because it's a cookbook that feels like a scrapbook. It's more than just recipes. It's a memoir. It's cookbook

as memoir and it's really, really good reading. I often think the best cookbooks are just that. That set aside the recipes, they tell an interesting story. And it was really beautiful to read about that full circle moment that your mom experienced when she finally understood why her own mother would only give eggs, which were such a treat in post-war Korea, the post-war Korea that she grew up in, that she'd only give eggs to her kids. I eat eggs every day without a thought. And to think that her mom worked so hard and would save so much of,

she would work so hard to obtain these eggs, which was a luxury at that time for Koreans. And then she would boil 12 boiled eggs that she saved her money for her kids to have. And those, and I was like, 12 boiled eggs, are you bringing that for your classmates? My mom was like, no, that was all packed for me and I ate all of it. I'm like what? I'd like what are you talking about? I'm like, no, that was what what

that was considered a luxury back then to be able to eat eggs like this and and my mom later revealed to me that her mom Would never eat those eggs because she just want her kids to have them to me that her mom would never eat those eggs because she just wanted her kids to have them. It's just so astonishing what sacrifices that moms make. It's amazing. And I think that's, it's shaped the character of my mom who's just like that. How has it shaped her? And how has it shaped you? Because we watch our parents and our habits sometimes are shaped by the things that they

see and do. Yeah, there's a, I forget which recipe, there's a recipe in the book where there was a point in her life when my dad and her were both struggling financially to get through the days and the months and paying the bill. I think we went out somewhere to eat and sometimes she wouldn't touch the food because she just wanted my brother and I to enjoy it because we never really went out to eat. Till this day we barely do. I don't remember the last time we did. But she'll always make sure that we have the food.

And even my dad, when he comes home from a 12-hour work day painting in the hot sun, whenever I sit down with him for dinner, he pushes all the side dishes known as panchen towards me, even though I already ate. And so they're just such giving people. So you mentioned that your dad is a painter and your mom worked in a restaurant. Can you just tell us a little bit more about her work in a restaurant and how that informs the lessons that you're learning from her in the kitchen now? Yeah. So my mom opened up a restaurant when I was in elementary school and she operated it for

about 13 years with decent success. And at that restaurant, she was everything. She was the chef, she was the cook, she was the cashier, she was the dishwasher, she was the ones ordering the food, she did everything. And she did that because she wanted to give my dad a break from painting and wanted to see if this is something that they can do other than painting homes. But I'm sure with anyone in the restaurant industry, it kills you. Yeah, it's tough. It's really hard work. It's really tough. Yeah. It's something that she moved on from eventually because it took a major toll on us as a family

and especially her. But she came out as a stronger cook and a stronger person and it definitely shaped her into who she is today. Did it change the way, not just that she cooked, but in the way that she presented food? Hmm. That's a good question. I think it's actually very different where at the restaurant, it was survival mode, where she needed to learn how to develop recipes that sell so that she could pay the bills.

But when she's at home, when she retired from the restaurant and she came back to home cooking, it wasn't about the money anymore. It was just about the love. And there's like, I know it's so cliche to say this, but I could taste the love in the food at home much more than her restaurant food. That's not to say her restaurant's food didn't have any love, but it had a lot of survival mode aspects to it. And so I think the presentation was in the fields of the food that she gave to us when she returned home. You know, this comes up over and over and over again in this podcast, that you can taste the cook's state of mind. If they're

feeling anxiety and when you run a restaurant, you kind of do feel anxiety all the time. You try not to let that come through in the food that you serve. And when you're cooking at home, one of the reasons you taste the love is because that's where you feel the love. Exactly. There's a saying in Korean, if someone has sonmat, that literally translates to hand taste. That's basically what you're saying. When there's sonmat involved in one's cooking, you could taste the love coming out of the mom's hands. And if someone has sonmat, it means they have a talent for cooking that's energized and powered by the mother's love.

What I always tell people about sonmat is you give two people the same recipe, the person with sonmat is going to make it better even though they follow the recipe the same exact way. And a good example of this was when we were developing the kimchi recipes, we featured two kimchi recipes, the traditional kimchi, which is Pogi kimchi, that's where the kimchi is kept whole, and Mat kimchi, which is cut kimchi, which is the kimchi you are probably most familiar with and what grocery stores sell. And there comes a, there's an instruction in the kimchi recipe where you mix it.

You mix up pepper powder with everything to create this beautiful paste that you spread the Napa cabbage in. And when I went to go mix it, what my mom likes to do is go in her like ergonomic Asian squat and mix it. I tried to replicate exactly what she was doing and I was moving my hands across it and my mom's like, no, no, no, that's not how you do it. You're over mixing it. Now you're taking out all, you're extracting all the juices from the Napa cabbage and you're

diluting it. That's the type of son mat where a mother knows exactly how to dance with her fingers, when to lift it up, when to put it back, and put the flavors into the seasoning. And it gets better with age, and I'm not at that point yet. You will get there. That's how you watch and learn, and you will get there. I hope so. Yeah.

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How did you approach joining this cookbook with your mom? Was she enthusiastic from the start or did you have to talk her into it? How did you eventually cook stories out of her? Were you just secretly putting the phone on the table once you got her to start talking so you could record things? Honest Kitchen just started because I just started recording her and she was okay with that. And I just started taking notes of her recipes.

But when Honest Kitchen grew a bit and there was a following and people admired our stories, our very ordinary life, and of course her recipes, we got multiple offers to write a cookbook. And when we finally sealed the deal, I told my mom, I think I want to do a cookbook with you. And her immediate response was, her face just went completely blank and she was very hesitant to do it. Very hesitant. Because Korean food is, especially the Korean food made by the Korean mother, it is a lot of work in terms of developing the recipes. And she didn't want people to be disappointed

with that. So she was very hesitant at first. So how'd you talk her into it? I just told her, and I guess this goes back to sacrifice again, I told her, I'm so passionate about this. And she's 66. Of course, she also has a restaurant background as a chef. So she knows when her time when she's no longer able to do what she loves the most. And so I told her, I really want to learn your recipes. And if not now, then when? I already can't speak full Korean, even though my parents only speak Korean, how much will I miss your recipes if I don't collect them now? And I'm already starting to lose parts of us where

I can't even speak full Korean, like I mentioned. So it was just so important for me to keep the traditions, especially food. And that ultimately convinced her that this is very worthwhile doing. Well, I understand that was a very persuasive argument you just gave. I was expecting, you know, like soundtrack music to come creeping in because it was, you know, how could you say no to that? Right? Yeah.

Yeah. And so we took on this very challenging journey of this cookbook. All the recipes are easy to make, in my opinion. Korean food's very easy to make, but perfecting those recipes was quite a journey. Well, and procuring the right ingredients, and you really, you seem to understand that the audience for this cookbook might not be inside a Korean household.

So you walk people through how to find the right thing and where to get it. And if you have to use a substitution, how that will work, which is much appreciated. You mentioned your mom is how old? 66. She does not look 66. So another reason to get the cookbook because whatever this diet is seems to be doing great things for your mother's vibrancy and longevity because she doesn't look anywhere near 66. Thank you.

What was one of the more memorable moments when you were working on the recipes? And it could be good or bad, you know, something that really went well or something that maybe was a little bit disastrous or something that was much more challenging than you thought as you were trying to document how to make one of her signature dishes. I think the hardest points of developing these recipes with my mom was not letting the influences of my American side get into the cooking. So, us Koreans and as with many other cuisines, we wash our chicken. We also wash our bone and meat. And I, you know, especially working at America's Test Kitchen where in American cuisine, this

isn't a thing. And they have all these factors. There's a big debate about whether you should wash your chickens. And I'm just like, there's a huge debate. And when we were developing our chicken recipes, particularly our Korean fried chicken recipe, my mom dumps the chicken in milk for a bit and then she washes it. And then she also washes all her bone in meat. Any beef that has the ribs in it, whatever bones, she washes it.

And I would be researching the recipe and saying, this expert in America saying it's not necessary to do it. And they have all these experiments of why they didn't do it. Why are you doing it? This is going to be an American book that's sold in, excuse me. This is going to be a book sold that's sold in, excuse me, this is going to be a book sold in America. We should think about this." And she just looked at me and just said, girl, I know what I'm doing. This is what Koreans do.

And it's funny because she was, I was stubborn and I'm very aware of it. And she's righteously stubborn and she did a side by side. And she's righteously stubborn. And she did a side by side where she didn't wash the chicken, she didn't dunk it in milk. And she's like, fine, taste this. And I was like, ooh, I could taste the gaminess of it compared to what you normally do. And she was like, exactly. And it's the best Korean fried chicken ever. Exactly.

So don't ask me this again. Mama knows the best. Yeah. You mentioned Korean fried chicken. Can we just talk about Korean fried chicken, which is so delicious. What is the secret to that crisp that you get on Korean fried chicken in particular?

That's a great question because this Korean fried chicken recipe we put in our book, my mom wanted to perfect so that you didn't have to go to Korea to find the best Korean fried chicken. And that crisp that she does, she uses a very special batter. And in particular to anything that's fried, my mom uses this store-bought flour mix that has all the right ingredients in it to make it very crispy. And whenever I tell this ingredient to my followers, they instantly buy it because that's kind of the secret ingredient that many Korean households use. We don't just buy flour.

Some households may, but we buy this particular flour mix that Koreans are very familiar with. And she uses that batter to create this... She uses that flour to create this very special batter. And then she does this tapping method where she, once the chicken is all battered up, she tells me tap it twice. That's what creates the wave pattern in this Korean fried chicken recipe. Wait, wait, tap it, tap it against what? The batter bowl. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Boom, boom. Yeah. And then she says that creates the wave pattern. That's what makes it very crispy. And she did so much research about this recipe, looking up her favorite Korean chefs and kind of just made a mash of all of them with her touch to it. And it was, it's just such a great recipe. What is the name of this secret flour that one must obtain before trying this recipe? It's in the book. I have it on one of the pages, but it's just called some flour mix.

Frying mix is what she uses. Like a frying mix, it comes in like a red, you know, bordered label and she buys it all the time. It's something you will find out all Korean grocery stores. So it's worth the trip. It's worth the trip. And if you don't have a Korean grocery store, there's always Amazon. They sell on there too.

So I wonder if your mother is amused by the idea that kimchi is having a moment, that it's served in all kinds of restaurants. There are several varieties on sale in all kinds of traditional grocery stores. Is she surprised or amused by that? I don't think so in terms of kimchi at least because she was, it's her bread and butter where she was always fed this and she's so used to it that I think it's just become like home to her to see it again.

She's more so amused by Korean culture, whether that be Korean food, Korean media, Korean skincare, becoming a part of our daily culture in America. Because that was a thing that was unthinkable back then. It's like back then when I brought kimbap to school, which is a seaweed rice roll, looks similar to sushi. I was bullied for that, but kids these days are now super excited to bring that to school. Yeah, we could have a whole conversation on Korean skincare, but that's for another episode

at another time. That too is having a moment. When we talk to Eric Kim, cookbook author, and who's also done a lot of work in test kitchens as you know. He's amazing. He said that his mother has refrigerators all over the house because she's always got kimchi going and she's always going around to various refrigerators and burping the little bottles of kimchi, the little jars of kimchi. Is that something that is a familiar

story to you in your household or in your community? Is that common for people to have multiple refrigerators full of kimchi? We have five. Okay. But I think I don't know how, I know when I go to Korea the few times, they typically just have one main household refrigerator and their dedicated kimchi refrigerator. In Korea in particular, that kimchi refrigerator, no matter how rich or poor, it's a staple that all people from different walks of life have.

In America, it's a bit more different just because I think we have a different background where we're trying our best to hustle out here speaking a different language that we're not, you know, fluent in. And so in my household, we don't have a kimchi refrigerator. It's a bit out of our budget. And so my mom compensates that with her four other fridges that's placed throughout the house. I was going to say, where are these refrigerators? So we have a big freezer, like it's like eight or nine feet tall in our garage. And then we have three full size refrigerator freezers in our patio.

And then we have our main one in our kitchen It's funny when I talked to Eric and he was ticking through where his refrigerators are even. Oh, wait a minute. There's one more Yeah, it's hilarious do You feel confident now Making kimchi that your mother is, mother has taught you a little bit about how to handle the cabbage, how to do it a little bit more gently? Is it something that you're more comfortable with now? I feel very confident and comfortable making kimchi now.

I haven't gotten to the point, and I think this is a familiar narrative with maybe Korean Americans and Koreans too. I haven't actually made a whole batch of it myself from start to finish, which I think might shock a lot of people. But I think it's a good reflection that when we have our moms around, we love them to just make it because it just, a mom's taste is always just so great. But also it's a tradition that, you know, I'm a bit careful with saying this, but it's also the making of kimchi and I was, excuse me, the making of kimchi is becoming a thing of the past where people are finding convenience much more worth buying.

And I actually recently had a conversation with someone who used to develop recipes for a very well-known kimchi company. There's a concern where we don't know who's going to be making these kimchi in the future. And so it was really important that I capture these recipes. Well, it sounds like it would be a good moment to bring Gimcheon back, where people kind of come together and make kimchi and turn it into a communal experience. Exactly. Exactly. That's my pipe dream to have cooking classes where we make these kimchi together and bring

these traditions back. You posted something online that was just so lovely. It was a birthday celebration in your kitchen. And when we ask people about their mama's kitchen, often a wonderful memory goes back to some sort of birthday celebration, a cake that was made, a special dish. It's the time when your mom is usually willing to make the one thing that she knows that you love. Is your mom a big birthday person? Has she always spoiled you on your birthday? And what is your traditional birthday dinner?

It's always miyeokguk, which is seaweed soup. This is a very nutritious soup that Korean mothers are fed after giving birth. It's said to produce great breast milk for the children and helps replenish the health back into the women who just gave birth. So it's a dish that celebrates the mothers who brought us into life, but also celebrates the person's birthday and their new year on life. Well, I like that because it was her birthday also because she exactly gave birth to you So she's celebrating you and celebrating herself as well exactly Does your father cook at all?

No, he doesn't he works like today. He left at 6 a.m. And last night he came home at home at 10 p.m and so he he doesn't have any time to Cook really much except for his days off on Sunday. What have you learned from him, even though he doesn't cook, what have you learned from him in that kitchen space? That's such a great question. It's funny because I dedicated the first chapter to him because I've learned so much from him. And the first chapter is the Panchen chapter, which is the biggest chapter because he's had the biggest impact on me.

My mom cooked so much for him because he sacrifices so much. And even though he's never home, he's such a great person who's so pure-hearted. The biggest thing I've learned from him is to respect people of all walks of life. I respect him as a homepater just as much as a CEO of a company, if not more. Do you think that's where you get your work ethic? Oh, for sure. Sorry, I'm tearing up because he's like, That's okay. That's all right.

It's a beautiful thing. Yeah, he's always my, I guess, I don't want to say weak point, but I'm trying to like, for example, I want to make a video about him, but I'm trying to like, for example, I want to make a video about him, but I'm never able to do it because I just cry so much in the voiceover because he's had so much impact on us. But absolutely, he is the biggest inspiration for my work ethic. He's never once complained about work and he feels so grateful to be in America, which was his dream,

and to see his kids do what they want. And so he's only said good things about his life so far. What did he think of the cookbook? Oh, he's so proud. He keeps flipping through the pages and taking pictures of it and sending it to his friends. and he's so proud. When I did the Subashi talk, it's like a crazy version of Ted talk. I gave a talk there in Busan, Korea. When I came home and the recording came out on YouTube, he watched it for probably 24

hours straight. And he was just glued to his screen just looking looking at it with pure eyes, like puppy eyes, just in awe of when a puppy looks up at its owner, just in awe of who they are. He was just looking at his screen the whole time. And so I was so honored to present this cookbook to him and show him the pages that I dedicated. You were able to take your mother back to South Korea. Another full circle moment. What was that trip like?

And I can imagine that you both experienced all kinds of emotions. Was that something that you did in the course of working on the cookbook? That happened when Honest Kitchen started to blow up, which was before the cookbook? That happened when Honest Kitchen started to blow up, which was before the cookbook. And I was just documenting my life and sharing recipes. And then we shared a video of us trying Trader Joe's kimbap. And that blew up where it was nearly impossible to find kimbap because it was just kept selling

out at Trader Joe's. And then TikTok had seen that video, but they had also seen my previous videos of me storytelling and they wanted me to visit them in Korea to produce some projects with them. And you were able to take mom along with you? Yes, I was able to take my mom with me who hadn't been back to Korea in over 30 years. What was that like for her? It was such a surreal experience. They had put us in a five-star hotel with these chefs and all this luxury.

And it was such an experience for both of us where it's like, it was so eye-opening that some people live this extravagant life and we got a taste of that. And it made us think a lot. She also got to visit her sister after 30 years of not seeing her. And that was probably the biggest luxury that we got out of this, um, which was spending

time with your loved ones that you haven't seen in decades. Hmm. Is this something that you hope to be able to do a little bit more is to go back and forth if your work, you know, paves the way for you to do that? Absolutely. It's funny because when I went to Korea for the very first time as a young adult, even though I was very Korean American, where I can't speak the language fluently, it felt like home there. It was such a surreal feeling that I can't explain. And during all these trips that we had in Korea, whether it was me traveling there as a young adult or TikTok inviting us, there's always a sense of guilt of not being able to bring my dad.

And I know this is a common feeling a lot of immigrant kids feel. And so I most damn hope I can do this in the future again. Yeah, that would be wonderful. Sarah, we like to give our listeners a recipe. And there are so many to choose from in your cookbook, but there was one in particular that you wanted to share. Tell us about it. Yes. So there was that one recipe. It is the kimbap one.

And that is the recipe that I was once bullied for, for bringing into school, but it's now made its comeback where it's a very beloved recipe that kids now feel excited to bring to school. Can you tell me about it? Because it does look like sushi. There's a picture of it in the cookbook. It got the seaweed roll around it, but it looks like it's packed with all kinds of delicious ingredients. Yes. So kimbap is different from sushi. And when I asked my mom what's the difference between the two, she always says, why would you call kimbap sushi? Kimbap is kimbap. And it's different from sushi because it uses usually cooked foods in it and it's rolled in a rice and seaweed that's seasoned differently.

And my mom's kimbap, if you notice it, hers is packed, like you said, with vegetables with a very small rim of rice. And that's when you know it's made with mother's love because the mom wants you to eat as many vegetables and limits the rice. She's sneaking those vegetables in there. But she also perfected the recipe where there's a harmony of all those vegetables and a perfect ratio with the rice. It's a beast to make, but she's able to make it within 45 minutes as the rice cooks. Wow.

So is it hard to make it because you have to chop so many things up? Yeah. It's a lot of simple steps compacted into it. It's easy to make. It's just a beast in terms of like you need to set aside time to make this, especially if your knife work needs some work. Your knife work. Mm-hmm.

Korean food in general, it's a lot of knife work where we cut things very thin. And it's a beautiful piece of art when they do this because the knife work is just insane that these Korean moms are able to do. Okay. So when you're making kimbap, what are you dipping this into? There's no dip. No dip at all. Okay. You wouldn't add any sauce at all, just as is?

You just eat it as is because there's so much flavor within each vegetables because the vegetables are all seasoned individually. So unlike sushi where it's typically a raw fish in there with some rice, that little extra sauce is going to help bring out those flavors. But with kimbap, the vegetables and whatever protein you're using are all seasoned individually with love and careful ingredients that shine when you just take a bite into it. Oh, it sounds so good. And will you need that sort of like bamboo roller to make sure that you get a really

tight roll? Yes. My mom uses a bamboo roller and rolls it very intricately to get a very tight roll. Okay. So I may have to get like your cell phone number or something because I road test all the recipes. So if I need help, I'll be DMing you or calling your mom, help! What do you do? I'll send you a tutorial. I'd be more than happy to help. Thank you. I appreciate it. I appreciate it. It has been great talking to you. Thanks so

much for joining us. Thanks so much for explaining the stories behind the cookbook and taking us into your mama's kitchen. I've loved talking to you, Sarah. Thank you so much, Michelle. I really enjoyed this time here. I had so much fun with Sarah today. It was wonderful to hear about her family's history across generations, how culture and traditions were passed down and how that happened in some part because the way food and cooking traditions were transferred in such a loving way from

her grandmother to her mother and now to Sarah and now to all of us through her platforms and her cookbook. And if you want to learn how to make Sarah's Gimbap, you can find the recipe at your mamaskitchen.com. You can find all the recipes from previous episodes there. And as always, you know our inbox is always open. We want to hear from you, your stories, memories from your own childhood kitchen. Maybe you have thoughts on this episode or one of the previous episodes, or maybe you've tried one of the recipes from one of the previous episodes.

So make sure to make an audio recording or you can make a video recording and send that to us at ymk at highergroundproductions.com for a chance for your voice to be featured in a future episode and maybe even your video on YouTube when we start presenting the episodes there. Thanks again for being with us. Make sure to come back next week because we are always serving up something delicious. Until then, be bountiful. You ever been there when an uncomfortable question about race comes up but you don't know how to answer? That's where Code Switch lives.

Each week we're talking about race and how it intersects with every other aspect of your life, from politics and pop culture to history and food. Listen now to the Code Switch podcast from NPR.