Michelle Obama: The Light Podcast - Lashana Lynch on Leading with Jamaican Pride

Episode Date: March 11, 2025

British actor Lashana Lynch takes us back to the tight-knit West London community where she grew up and to her grandparents' record shop, which was the soundtrack to her childhood. She talks about the importance of bringing her Jamaican heritage to the red carpet and how she channels her mother's strength and discipline to prepare for certain roles. She also share her love for her mama's saltfish dish and why she craves Jamaican comfort food when she's on set.Your Mama’s Kitchen is a production of Higher Ground.Produced by Sonia Htoon.Associate Producers are Camila Thur de Koos and Jenna Levin.Sound design and engineering from Andrew Eapen, Ryan Kozlowski and Roy Baum.Executive producers for Higher Ground are Mukta Mohan, Dan Fierman and Michele Norris.The show’s closing song is 504 by The Soul Rebels.Editorial and web support from Melissa Bear and Say What Media. Talent booker is Angela Peluso.Copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC / Sound Recording copyright 2024 by Higher Ground Audio, LLC. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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We've had a radio, always a radio by the dining table that still blasted even when we're eating, having deep conversations, the radio would still be like belting music throughout. And did your mom like the same music that you and your brothers liked? Or was there a battle over who got to control the dial? Do you think we got to control the dial? Do you think we got to control the dial? Hello, hello. Welcome back to Your Mama's Kitchen.

This is the place where we explore how we are shaped by the kitchen and all the things that happen there. Not just the food, all the stuff, the homework, the arguments, the card games, the laughter. I'm Michelle Norris and I'm so glad you're here and I think we should just get right into it because I'm joined today by the actress Leshawna Lynch. You might know her as the first woman to play 007 in No Time to Die opposite Daniel Craig. I'm almost tempted to say Lynch, Leshawna Lynch. She's also brought life to a range of roles on the silver screen, including Rita Marley, wife

of the reggae icon in the film Bob Marley, One Love, Maria Rambeau in Captain Marvel, Isogi in The Woman King, and Leshawna's latest role is the MI6 armed specialist, Bianca Pullman, in the Peacock television series, The Day of the Jackal, based on the book. As audience members, we can see Lashana putting her heart into all these roles. And there might be a reason for that, because she says that she often channels her mother when she's playing these roles. And so we're going to learn a little bit about our mother and a little bit about the kitchen that her mother ran. Lashana, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you. Thanks for having me. So we had a chance to talk a little bit about the kitchen that you grew up in last time that we were together. So I'm so glad that we're able to do it in the studio so the whole world can hear this conversation. You grew up in the UK. I'm wondering if you describe the kitchen there, if it will be completely familiar to people here or if the kitchen maybe looks, sounds, smells a little bit different because you grew up across the pond. Well, it will hopefully resonate with some people because I'm from a Jamaican background. So we Jamaicans are everywhere. We like to scatter. And our food is in, you know, I'm in the States right

now. I'm in New York. There's Jamaican spots everywhere. London is very similar. And the kitchen at home was just Jamaican. We got into some English foods later on, maybe some light pastas and stuff, but generally it was just Jamaican food. And what does that mean, Jamaican food? I mean, because when we think of Jamaican food, if you're not Jamaican, you might think of restaurant food, but I imagine that home cooking is a little bit different than what you get in a restaurant. Yeah, definitely. It is, how do you describe it? I've never actually described Jamaican

food before. It's just a lot of mmms and like tongue clapping when eating. A lot of mmms. That's nice. Okay, so let me ask this way. What would dinner be like on a Tuesday night? Okay. A Tuesday night may consist of the same dinner from Sunday night, because we batch cook. So there's always a big pot of rice and peas on Sunday. They usually would last like two, three days. And if the meats and vegetables and things have run out, then my mom would usually whip up another chicken with some mashed potato or some dumplings on the side. She'll just kind of mix everything. But it was kind of

a, eventually on request because early on I became pescatarian and for Jamaican mother. How early? So I was in my late teens when I became pescatarian. And how did mom react to that? It was like, so you can eat chicken though still, obviously. Pescatarian means you're eating this chicken. Is that what she said? You mean you can call yourself a pescatarian, but when I make chicken, you're going to eat

it? Is that what she was saying? It's more like the word pescatarian doesn't really resonate with Jamaicans, I think. It's like, but it's meat. What do you mean? Like there's nothing wrong with it and it tastes nice. Like just eat the thing. So I think it took maybe a year for my mom to realize that I wasn't going to eat, you know, curry goat and like roast chicken or anything like that anymore. I was going to have roast fish and steamed fish and stewed fish and all of those things that I really enjoy.

So she actually, because my mom's incredible, she got to making two dishes every weekend. So she would make like a pot of curry goat and then she'd make a little fish for me. Just for you. Just for me. I know, because she loves me. She's wonderful. But she loves fish as well. And you have two older brothers, right? Yeah. Did they give you a lot of guff about this? Look at her acting all special over there with

her little special dish just for her. The one singular fish just for you. I mean, they didn't give me a sticker or anything, but it was a bit like, how long is this going to last for? Like, do you really need to do this and why? And I was really conscious at that early age. I was like, I feel like my body doesn't need it. I want to make sure my digestion is good, and I want to see if that can stretch my mind. And there's still all of these wonderful Jamaican foods and

foods in general that I can still consume whilst not having meat. So it just took a minute, it took a minute just to adjust for the household to come to where I was. But luckily my mom's really healthy and loves cooking two different types of vegetables and like two different types of potatoes and roast plantain and fried plantain and like boiled yam and she has everything anyway. So whenever she, we're getting a little, the mouth in slightly. But yeah, she loved doing all of those things. So it wasn't an issue. It was more just understanding that your child's in a different place, food wise.

Where did you grow up in London? What area? West London, Shepherd's Bush. And in what kind of home did you live in? So we grew up on an estate, which for here, it happened to be in New York, it's the projects. And it was a nice small community of three blocks that kind of faced each other with the grounds in the middle where all the children, including myself, would play. And I guess where the parents would send their children to just myself, would play. And I guess where the parents would send their children to just kind of get out of the flat a second. Give me some room. And that was my first six years bought and she's very proud of. And in between

that time, I was spending time at home, but also spending time with my grandmother, who was also in the same area. Now, my grandmother wasn't on an estate. She was in a three-story townhouse, basement included, big garden. Her and her husband had a business, pillar of the community. They ran a record shop, so there was a lot of musical influences coming in and out, and a lot of food, and a lot of chat, and just it was mini Jamaica there, even more Jamaican than my household. Nicole Aspire Mini Jamaica sounds wonderful. Angella Yeah, it does. From the food to the conversation

to being around elders constantly who are just telling stories and showing experience and the fashion and the market like attitudes and everything in the area that kind of made those who came to England from the Windrush generation feel like they were at home away from home. They were in their own little community, but also had built themselves up so far to be able to afford a townhouse, which is just incredible. I find that that generation is between coming from the estate to then seeing how my grandparents lived, it was just such a stark difference, but also didn't feel alien to me because it

taught me early on that we black people can have everything. That's not a question. My grandparents have it, and they run a business, and they have some money saved, and people respect them, and they eat well. Nicole Sadegwad, Ph.D. in Business Administration, New York Always eat well. Yes, yes. We're going to come back to the Windrush generation because we're going to educate people a little bit about that. But before we do an observation, you mentioned that your family ran a record store. I can think of a few things that would be more wonderful than that as a young person to be able to hang out in the family record store. I know we're supposed to be talking

about kitchens, but could you take us inside that space for a minute? Because what kind of music, was music always playing? I mean, I just imagine that the coolest people in the world were walking in and out of that store all the time. You got the new word on music before everybody else, you had the posters. Yes, the posters, the actual physical CDs, the record sleeves, like sometimes some of the early, early Studio One reggae vinyls that would come directly from Jamaica, be pressed in Jamaica and then sent here. We would get to see them and feel them and hear that scratch, you know that record scratch when you play a vinyl? We'd hear that-

The needle drop. That needle drop that is so delicate and has so much power when played. It was beautiful because I was just around vibration constantly as a child. Whether it be the music that I heard when I went into the record shop or that music being brought back home or just in between the musicality that you have when you're a family that experiences music in that way. It just feels different. Your mood is slightly different, the way in which you look upon your circumstances are different. It changes the way in which the household

runs and it feels like there's an element of safety within everything that happens in your life because you come back to music, which we know is one of the most powerful sources in the world. So it was a really special time. This explains something for me because we've only met once, but we were in a situation where we were traveling in the same place. And so I saw you over a few days and every time I saw you, you were always bopping. You were always, I mean, literally we were in the line getting breakfast and the song came out and you were like getting your eggs and just like at the sporting events, you

know, like people are kind of polite and you're like in the music altogether. And so this explains why. Right. Oh my gosh. I don't even realize I do that. Cause I hum when I'm waiting for things. I sing when I'm like, when I've just started eating something, especially. And just to pass the time, there's always some song in my head that just flows from one to the other really quickly.

Um, but yes, I, it's just in your body. When you experience music from me, from one of its original places, which is Studio One, Reggae, you just don't have a choice but to dive in to the feeling. And it can sound a little in the sky for some people, but actually it's been from a young age, a massive healer, just to listen to music around you, just to feel the bass of music upstairs or downstairs, or when you walk into the record shop and you can hear the chat around the music and you're discussing artistry and you're discussing who's going to get what because that's the one of its kind, that's the first of its kind and how

many have been pressed of this song and will it come again and who's going to send them over. All of those conversations are so, so interesting. And I don't think I remember the intricacy of that conversation, but I do remember the feeling, which is you come into a space where literally a bit like a barbershop or a hairdresser's, your troubles are left at the door and now we're discussing the politics of music, which is just, it will stand the test of time. That's what we should be doing all the time. Taking apart music and really discussing where things come from, the lyricism, the feeling, the expression, and how we kind of add that to our everyday lives.

One last thing about the record store. Young people listening to this are like, what, a record store? Because they just don't exist anymore. And I will remember record stores. And I had friends that worked at record stores. And they would say that they always knew the songs that were going to hit because they'd put them on in the record store. And if people in the store, all over the store, even if it wasn't their genre, all kind of started to react to it. They knew, okay, this is going to catch fire. Ooh, that's interesting. I wish I was old enough to feel that bit, because I was under 10. I talk a lot about feeling and expression and what was left with me, but because I don't remember all of the chat, it's like stepping

into a dream that you remember where things were and who was there, but you don't really remember what was said exactly, but you know that you felt good there. That's kind of what it was, walking into the store as the small person with all of these big people discussing grown folk things. So you said something, it was a place where you know you were going to feel good there. Was that true of your kitchen also? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, the only time I didn't feel good is when I came in and I was being a bother to my mum, like I would try and get involved or try and just chat to her or tell her about something or just disrupt the space in some way. And she's

just like, get out of the kitchen. Let me just finish this thing. You're taking up space. But even that is just an amazing memory to be honest. But everything else was a safe space. It's always the place that you come to, to feel and express. A lot of the conversations, the family conversations, things I'd want to go to my mum for, things that me and my siblings wanted to discuss. It was all in the kitchen or at the table, which for us was the same space. It was a long space cut into two. One side was the kitchen and the other side was the dining table. And Sundays was especially the time when we got to really like chop it up, as they say. We eat, we discuss,

we relax, the plates are sat there, bone dry after eating maybe finishing an hour ago, and now we're just talking life. And it's just a space where you sometimes feel your most authentic self, because this is where creation starts in the kitchen. Did you all play dominoes in the kitchen? You know, I never learned how to play dominoes. It was an eldest thing. Like in Jamaica, you see the uncles, the granddad's like slapping the table, playing dominoes like really loudly. And I just, I never got into it actually.

I think my granddad and his friends did. And I loved looking at the cases and opening them up and kind of putting them like in a row, which is absolutely not how you play dominoes. That mind was more just the, I loved the materials of them rather than the game, to be honest. Well, you know, when people are slapping dominoes, I can see why you wouldn't want to enter that space because it's hard to merge, you know, into that. And unless there's like a kids table where you can kind of like learn the basics of dominoes before you have to play with the elders, that can be really difficult. Yes. Oh, and there was no kids table here. It's everyone at the table all at once. So,

which is good actually, because it just, as a young person, someone say it makes you grow up quickly because you're privy to more grown folk things early on. But actually, there's a maturity that happens very slowly as you see real conversations happening. You're protected from the things that you should be protected from, but you're not shielded from the things that are real life. So that you are just having normal, regular conversations at like seven years old, understanding the real things about life at seven years old. I think that's important.

Your dad was a social worker. Yeah. I'm a housing manager. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about them and your mom in particular. What does she look like? Does she have a kitchen personality? Ooh, does she? Very focused. I can see her in the kitchen now as I'm seeing like octopus hands. She is able to do, I mean, she's a mom. She has two boys and a girl.

Like there's a lot to do. You got to work quickly. Which is why when I came in, it was like, get out of the kitchen, I've got things to do. And there's very little time. And I also want to watch my favorite show. Go away. So she had a TV in the kitchen.

She had it, no, we have a, so there's a kitchen and dining room, and then like a kind of like concertina door that leads to the living room, and you can always hear the TV from the living room. And we never got to that place where we were the family that had a TV in the kitchen. I don't know why. And I actually don't know many people in England that have that, which is interesting. I think I only really started seeing that in American films when I was younger. So we never had that, but we always had a radio. Always a radio by the dining table that still blasted even when we're eating,

having deep conversations. The radio would still be like belting music. I was going to say music or news? It sounds like music. It would change to news at certain parts of the day, but throughout the day from morning to night, it was music. And did your mom like the same music that you and your brother slaked? Or was there a battle over who got to control the dial? Do you think we got to control the dial? That's right.

Thank you for being comfortable. This is a Jamaican mommy. No one controlled anything. Listen, there were moments when we turned it off and she was like, who touched the radio? We're like, sorry, let's put it back on. Yeah, no, no, no, we didn't get to touch, we didn't get to choose our channels. She would have to be way out of the house and like not coming back for a long time for us to even touch that dial. No way. And then we'd have to try and tune back to where the station that she was on, because it was because it's radio. So you're trying to find the right crackle and what the sound was and what the direction was. And we didn't know

what the actual station was. So we just have to go by what we're hearing. That was too stressful. So eventually I just didn't touch anything and just rolled with it. It's beautiful that your family was able to hold on to so much of Jamaica when they moved to London. The food, the music, the culture. And it sounds like you try very hard to hold on to that also. Absolutely. That if someone meets you, they gather very quickly that you're Jamaican, maybe from the accent, but it sort of works its way into your biography. You wore the Jamaican national bird to the No Time to Die premiere. Was that, that was bespoke, custom made for you, I assume? It was. There's a story behind that actually.

The trunk of clothes that my stylist had sent over for a week or a few days prior to the premiere of No Time to Die got stuck in customs and did not come out until after the premiere. So we didn't have anything for the premiere at that time. Everything was in the airport. So we had to think very quickly about what it is that is most important to me about my role in No Time To Die, and what I represent and what I lead with, which like you just said is my culture. And Vivian Westwood's team said that they had an archive of a dress, one of their staple dresses that happened to be yellow.

And I was like, okay, this is the base, right. Now we need black and green. So how do we get that in? Someone thought of tool, we put some black tool underneath. And then we just, as I turned around in the mirror, I just saw loads of space, space where we could play. And if we had time, the whole back would be a very large bird or a very large ackee. At one point, it was an ackee tree that was going to be at the

back. But we had 48 hours and I said, okay, national bird, Dr. Bird, it looks like this. Is there a possibility that we could make a version of it and put it on the dress somewhere?" And they said, yeah, we can embroider it or we can make it like kind of like feathers. And I was like, like an actual bird. Okay, great, sure. But as a surprise, when I turn around, you see that Jamaica is completed by the back. And thank God, because for me, it's like one of my favorite dresses of all time. Like I would talk to my grandchildren about that story and about how I was able to do that with the team within not even three days. we made the impossible possible.

And when you walked in the way you turned to make sure that everybody saw it. Yes. Yes. It's a very Jamaican thing to do as well. Just looking to the side like, you're going to see me. You're going to see this. Such a proud moment. And honestly, my parents, my family as a whole, and just different people in Jamaica were just so proud to see that dress. It made them feel seen. They're seen

in the film, yes, but when the actor who is in the movie actually extends that to the red carpet, which we all don't have to do, we just want to feel comfortable, we want something that fits, to be honest. And that makes us feel good and empowered. But that was my empowerment that day. I felt like my complete self culturally bring it full circle from the people that made me to the people that I now get to celebrate. Was there just a little bit of an answer also to the reaction when you were first named

for that role? Because I remember very clearly when that was announced and if you looked at social media, there were a group of people who were losing their minds like, I can't believe this. And then there were another group of people who were like, oh, you know, the Ian Fleming purist who were wondering, not just that you were one of color, that you were a woman, you know, they just had always expected something. And they frankly were upset when every time, every time there is a new bond, there is, you know, a certain amount of hammering, but along comes a woman. Was it even more important because of that to step out as your full and authentic self, to say that you were in the way that you brought that to the role that you were bringing that to the red carpet to?

I think it was important to have a non-response and a complete shoot to the other direction when it came to that chat. Because eventually, very quickly, through my mom's encouragement and friends and just seeing it grow so much that that noise became really too loud for me to handle on my own. It's not something that I should be handling, nor is it really my business. It's very much so your business to feel that way and to feel pressed by something that is fictional and actually doesn't mean, it doesn't mean anything to you in the direction that you're feeling it. It means more to us in the thing that we're gaining through this casting. It just meant so much to the black community, the Caribbean, Jamaica, to parents, to young

black women coming up in the industry, to my peers who we've come up together and it's just such a moment that I learned very, very quickly that it's not my business to handle. So when it came to the dress and me talking up for Jamaica during press, I didn't have to mention any of those things. I didn't have to respond to it. I didn't have to internalize it or really hold on to people's opinions and emotions. All I had to do was exist strongly and stronger in who I am, where I come from, and what that means to me. That, I think, spoke much louder than any response I had to it.

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So subscribe, please, and listen wherever you get your podcasts. You often play very strong women. Yes. Very strong characters, physically strong and mentally strong and emotionally strong. And I was so interested to hear that you often reach back to your mom when thinking about these characters. Where do we see your mom in Maria Rambeau? Where do we see your mom in Azogui? Where do we see her in Rita

Marley and where will we see her in Bianca? Wow. This is the second time I've been asked about my mom today. She's going to be so happy that this day has included her name like this. In Maria Rambeau, we have a woman who raises a very strong opinionated, capable, smart daughter who seems like a bit of an, you know, those parents that say, I don't know where I got this child from, this child is just beyond me. It feels like Monica is that, Monica is the me and Maria is my mom, raising this child that's just beyond their years. That's what I can see in her. Her being a loyal friend and a really open parent in her style and not trying to shoehorn anything into my thinking, but also instilling values in me that have given me a real grounding and a real deep foundation in myself for this industry.

That was my setup for being able to handle this industry. That's what's in Maria. Isoki is such a far cry from my mom. But in terms of her tough love, yeah. My mom's got some tough love in there. She will remind you very quickly, you are not the first person to have a cut on your knee. You are not the first person to feel like you failed. You're not the first person, nor will you be the last person to question yourself or question the world or question your morals. So why are we sticking on this? I don't really understand. Sometimes it feels like a bit of an injustice

speaking to her and that she's so confident that things will be better. so let's go, let's do the work. But actually, in retrospect, I get it. All of us children, we get it eventually, why our mums were saying things like that. And then with Rita Marley, I was just talking about this today, that's my mum through and through. Like that is actually a close enough dead stamp of my mum. She is quietly poised, quietly confident, but will also get to a point where she will tell you about yourself if you mess with her. Immediately. I thought it and saw it early on in my childhood. Mess with my mom and you've messed with the household. Like, she's from Kingston, Jamaica. She does not play when it comes to being disrespected. She does not care what you're thinking is and she doesn't mess around when it comes to her children and anyone disrespecting her and her opinions and just what she comes with

naturally. She just doesn't... That thing that I hear in your 40s or 50s or 60s when you're like, I just care less. I care less about people's... I feel like or 60s when you're like, I just care less. I care less about people's, I feel like she got that when she was like 15. That's a blessing. I know. I know. And Rita Marley has that in abundance. Because the first time I met her, she told me that she knew she was a queen from early on. How?

Yeah, you know, that is truly a blessing. Because a lot of times, even if you feel it and you know it in here, you don't fully embrace it because the world has sent you so many other messages or you have insecurities or for one reason or another, you just don't accept the fact that your destiny is grand. Yeah. Yeah. So to be unwavering in that when the world is really, really ushing you aggressively in another direction is there should be a thesis on it. They should be taught in schools,

especially for young women. I bet you had a little bit of that because you were pushing your family, you know, she who comes home and declares she's a pescatarian, you were also telling your family that you wanted to be an actor early on. Yes. And you pursued acting very young as a child. I did actually. You're right. I didn't give my parents a choice in that.

There were going to be classes, there will have to be investment in my future. There will have to be nights and weekends spent with extra time at different schools and different classes because I made them see it. And I don't know how I did that actually. I would have to ask my parents, but I made them see early on that it was going to be worth it for their lives. And I think that the fact that I was able to do that early on that it was going to be worth it for their lives. And I think that the fact that I was able to do that early on, let them know that they can feel confident in parting with that little bit of money that we don't have to spare and that extra time on Saturday mornings going to singing and dancing and acting classes and eating less sometimes or eating simpler sometimes in order to make this child's future grow from now. It's a massive sacrifice. And

my mom talks about sacrifice a lot. And my dad is just so blown over by how it's happened. I don't think that every child has that, and this isn't me beating my chest in any way, but it is very special and I'm very happy that I was able to take whatever was instilled in me from my mom, my dad, my grandparents, to actually use my voice to my parents and say, this is happening. I see it. It's not a pipe dream. I actually see it for myself. If I think that my mom was able to see it, she was able to hear other parents who were going through a similar thing, whether it be parents of the kids at my school, or it be one of my grandmothers who's no longer here, but she sent her son to a stage school and she told her exactly how to do it. She's like, right,

this is the credit card I used, this is how I like to finesse the uniform, this is the time that I've put aside, this is how I've instilled in uniform. This is the time that I've took, you know, put aside. This is how I've instilled in my son to, you know, get there on your own because I'm not able to take you. All of those things, she was, as a great friend, and as an auntie of mine, was able to help instill more confidence and make my mom feel more assured that she was making the right decisions. You went to the Sylvia Young Theater School. Was that entering a totally different galaxy for you? Were you surrounded by a lot of kids who had grown up in the estates, who were Jamaican, who were part of the Windrush generation, or was it like visiting Mars?

Mars. Okay. It was absolutely Mars. I don't think I saw anyone that looked like me. They weren't any black children in my classes. I saw them in around the school. And bear in mind, I'm only going on the weekends because my parents wouldn't allow me to do that full time.

It's nice that I want to do it, but I'm not going to sacrifice traditional school to then go to a stage school. That came later. But I saw a couple of like, black boys, black girls, mixed race, girl, maybe one in a class. But in my class, I didn't have anyone that felt like they were from my background. It did feel like I was an alien on a different planet, but everyone wanted the same thing. We all come from different spaces. Some people can really, really afford it and they're good. Some people can really, really afford it and their parents maybe just want the kids to get out of the house and do something creative. And other people like myself really could not afford it in any way. But just loved being creative, loved singing and loved having that Saturday morning to explore myself and

what I come with naturally and the kind of gifts that I could harness at that young age. The space was beautiful and it taught me so much, but I was on Mars. Did that help you? Yeah, I think the exposure to different backgrounds at that time when I'd had a load of friends that were from the similar background as me, was necessary for me to develop an understanding of the kind of world that I'd be eventually ushered into through this career, this industry. It would have definitely been safer and much more comforting to stay in the estate or just at my nan's and we're chilling, we're doing life as we know

it. But for some reason, my destiny was to broaden my mind really early on so that I could get a deeper understanding of the world and I could not judge myself from my background. I didn't need to have come from an affluent background or live on a real estate, like a big estate with 12 bedrooms, to know that I could reach exactly the same place, if not further than some of the kids that could afford it and then some in my class. So since your family was part of this Windrush generation, people who were brought to England from the Caribbean mainly to help rebuild the country after the destruction of World War II, people who are part of that generation often feel like every step they take, they are taking on behalf of the people who were brought to England. That there's this kind of, I don't know, almost a need to represent in everything you do. Do you feel that in

your work? Or do you think your, your mom and your family has that expectation for you? I have taken it upon myself very early on, probably too early on, to harness that need to represent, that need to protect the why, the big why, which is we were brought here into England for a purpose that everyone seems to have forgotten. And it's my responsibility to help remind the generations that were a part of that coming over, but also the generations that are under me that don't even know what the Windrush generation is, unfortunately. I'm not saying that my career should be a part of an education of it, but I think that there are many ways like wearing a dress with the Jamaican flag colors to No

Time to Die premiere or like speaking on what their experience was and how great they are in a BAFTA speech or just doing a Q&A and talking to young women who look like me and really instilling hopefully that appreciation that they can and should have for their parents and their grandparents for what they've done and what they've overcome. And that's not to compare and say we have it easy because every struggle has its own struggle and that's, you know, everything comes with its own thing. But in order for myself and my peers who are in this industry to go as far as we are right now and beyond, there has to be a paying homage to those who have even allowed us to be here, to exist here, and allowed us to stay because some could have got what they got from this country and then a whole batch

could have gone back. And then we wouldn't necessarily have the opportunities that we have today to be in an industry and speak to people like, because we'd be in a circumstance that maybe you wouldn't be able to lend your voice to the things that you care about, or maybe you'd go into another industry, or maybe it would remain a pipe dream, who knows? But yeah, I think it's a part of my calling to remind everyone of how great we are. I'm going to go back to the kitchen for a minute because I'm wondering, you've been so many places. Your star is ever on the rise.

And when you need to feel grounded, does food help get you there? And is there something that you remember? Do you want, you know, sometimes you just want something that your mom used to make that, you know, look at your face right now. Yeah. You know, you just want, I just want my mom's gumbo. You know. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, that's, I make this face because what you're not taught early on in, you know, for any one of us that going into the entertainment industry, into media, whatever, is that as

long as you're highly ambitious and striving for greater, you're going to be slightly further away from the things that ground you. And you have to make a conscious effort to find that grounding in alien spaces. So when you come to LA for the first time and you're shooting a movie or you're in the back end of Europe and you don't know where you are and there's no one there that looks like you. You're like, how the hell am I going to find grounding and peace and comfort in a space that doesn't even have the kinds of foods that I usually buy? I can't buy a plant and I can't buy a yam here. So what am I going to make that makes me feel comforted in my

soul and in my belly, whether that be your actual, your spiritual belly or your literal belly? And it's in those moments where I think, man, I really wish that I had my mom's soup right now. She makes this amazing fish tea that is so, we call it fish tea in Jamaica, not fish soup. It's so nice and it's so, it's just so comforting and it makes me feel like myself. And I found that eventually I'd taken to speaking to my mum towards the end of a project and she'd be like, oh, but you can't wait to get home and have some food. And I'd say, yes, can you make me a big, big pot of fish tea? So when I come back, it's there and I can like put some in the freezer,

I can have some at your house, can have some at my house, and I will be restored again. I'll be nourished again culturally, and I will feel like I'm back to my roots, so to speak. Does she ever send you care packages? No, can you tell her? It sounds like you really could use it because you often have to train, you know, and their trainer is probably putting you on a pretty strict diet. So you have good mobility, you're building muscle mass. And some do, is the food interesting when that happens? Does it have the right kind

of flavor or spices? Do you, you know, is there a scotch bonnet anywhere in there? Ha ha ha ha ha ha. I'm laughing from a very pained place right now. Because if I'd have known there wasn't going to be any flavor, then I would have brought my scotch bonnets from England. Oh man, no, no, no. I'm listening to you and I'm just having really just bad food memories of the woman king because our diet was so strict for that and I'm glad that it was. But man. You shot in Africa during COVID. Yes.

And so you were in a lockdown situation there. Yes, basically. And the food was being sent to us. So we weren't instructed to cook certain foods. It was like a package of maybe two days of food, breakfast, lunch and dinner, with some snacks. And if that food was done, which by the way, there was a weekend where I ate two days worth of that food and messaged our trainer and I was like, it's all gone. And she was like, that was supposed to be the whole weekend is now lunchtime on the Saturday and you've eaten everything. It was like cauliflower rice and plain fish.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah, thank you so much. I know that there's a lot of people who are on team cauliflower rice. People love it, you know, they evangelize about it. I guess it just, it doesn't work for me. The food situation? No, the cauliflower rice in particular. It's just not... I appreciate how innovative it is. I just don't understand it. When you're eating a vegetable that is made to look like rice, but isn't rice, and you're chewing with a different texture, your brain is already shut off. You're like, this isn't rice and you're chewing with a different texture, your brain is already shut off. You're

like, this isn't rice, it's not going to fill me and I'm already hungry and I haven't even finished this container yet. And if you come from a culture where you eat a lot of rice and the rice is prepared well, it is not often an adequate substitute. Yes, yes, but I couldn't, I had to lower my carbs. Everyone's diet was different in the show. Some people were like really slim and needed to gain more muscle. I have softness, okay? I had some muscle to be gained during this film. I did it, but it required for me to like drop all of my carbs completely. So there was no rice at all for months.

No rice, no bread, no pasta. No, no. I actually convinced our trainer to get me this really, I don't know what the vegetable is, but a vegetable made into pasta. I can't remember what that was. Like a garbanzo bean pasta or something like that. Something like that. But you know, it was literally like half of a cup of pasta. And it was dry as well, still with the plain white fish with no seasoning. And I feel like they

do this just to make you like push parts of like the psychology behind having to lower your carbs and not taste anything. Just feel sustenance, just sustenance and then you'll be fine. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. Seasoning does not add carbs. This is what we said. This is exactly what we said. We're like, where are the spices? Where are the herbs? Where's the garlic? Like anything, black pepper, some salt, anything at all. But actually, you know what it did?

It took our brains from, I'll speak for myself, it took my brain from needing the comfort to needing the, to gaining the necessity. So food is so comforting and it's just like one of those things you look forward to like at lunch or the end of the day when you're like, oh, I can't wait to eat that thing. Whereas now, we were fueling our bodies in order to be warriors. And it wasn't about the food. And it wasn't about enjoyment. It was about the need to do an excellent job under tough circumstances within the narrative of the film, and to really kind of step into

the shoes of these women outside of the taste because I know that at that time they would have had squash fries and seasoning. So, speaking of comfort food, I got to say goodbye to you, but I want to know what is the number one comfort dish that you look for when you head home? There's one that comes to mind, but there's so many. I've already mentioned fish tea. That is major. Let's put that at three. Number two would be pea soup, red pea soup. This is back to my meat eating days, which is like 15 years ago. I think that I had last had this, but I still think of it and it's still, I can still taste

it. But the number one, which my mom just every time I don't even have to ask, I'm like, can you whip something up? I'm going to come around. She'll make Aki and saltfish with boiled yam, banana, green banana, plantain, dumplings, and if you can get it, it's hella expensive, roasted breadfruit. Yeah. That's like the thing on top. The breadfruit, my mum will, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, I've got some breadfruit. I'm like, I'll just have that on its own.

Honestly, it's just, that is my return to home dish. Did she write any of this down? Is there like a golden folder that she will pass on to you and your brothers so you will be able to make this for your own families? There isn't one, but I have gone in with the necessity of a cookbook. My mom is such an excellent cook and those recipes are so important. And I can't make all of them unfortunately, especially the meat dishes. It's been so long. I just don't even remember now. Yeah, I'm going to off the back of this conversation, I'm going to tell her that the

world demands it and that her future. Our listeners demand it. Exactly. We always gift our listeners with a recipe and I'm sure that people who love seeing you on film would love a taste of your mama's cooking. So we have to get a recipe for the saltfish anaki. Same as me. Same as me. It'll be good. Even if it's in her own handwriting, because there's something beautiful about that also.

Even better. And she writes in italics. It's crazy. Oh yes. Have her just write it out and you can find all the recipes at our website, yourmommaskitchen.com. So tell her that she will be featured, you know, and that people all over America, maybe even all over the world, will be trying their hand at her recipe. That's got to puff her up a little bit. Oh, she's definitely going to puff her up. Definitely. I've talked about her two, three times this morning and now it's

about her cooking. She's going to be delighted. She's walking around with a smile today and she doesn't even know why because you're sending out these vibes in her direction. Exactly. Exactly. Thank you. I'll pass that on to her for sure. I have loved talking to you. Thanks so much for stopping by. Thank you. It's been delightful. One of the things that we learn in this conversation is the importance of food and never to take it for granted. Those recipes that your mom used to make, your grandma, your dad, your

aunties, you think that you might have access to them forever, but you might not. So it's good to get in the kitchen, watch over their shoulder, participate when you can. And if they have those recipes written down, grab them, protect them, make copies of them because they're treasure. They're a special kind of wealth. And speaking of recipes and memories, remember that our inbox is always open for you to share your mama's stories. We want to hear about those recipes, those memories.

If you have thoughts on one of the earlier episodes, make sure to send us a voice memo at ymk at highergroundproductions.com. That's ymk at highergroundproductions.com for a chance for your voice to be featured on a future episode. And remember, you can find recipes from all the previous episodes at our website, that's yourmommaskitchen.com. I'm Michelle Norris. I'm so glad that you were with us today. Now make sure to come back next week because we're always cooking up something special. In the meantime, be bountiful. You ever been there when an uncomfortable question about race comes up but you don't know how to answer? That's where Code Switch lives.

Each week we're talking about race and how it intersects with every other aspect of your life, from politics and pop culture to history and food. Listen now to the Code Switch podcast from NPR.